You obviously hate games and want them to suck. It's a good thing cesare doesn't work with you!Originally Posted by Thrag
You want me to what, call your company dumb? Already did that. Or maybe to try to argue with you, who at the first sign of losing tries to troll it up so he can claim it was all just for fun? Pass.
I'm glad you like your job, as you've stated over and over, but science doesn't back up their policies. As a matter of fact, it says they are wrong and 60+ hour work weeks just don't work as well. If you want to argue something there, go for it.
Wow, now you're responding entirely to whore your blog.You want me to what, call your company dumb? Already did that. Or maybe to try to argue with you, who at the first sign of losing tries to troll it up so he can claim it was all just for fun? Pass.
Read the preceding 19 pages and get back to me.If you want to argue something there, go for it.
Based on my ill-fated time as a CS major, no sane person would want to know, but if you're still curious: B+ tree.
Or dinosaurs*.
*Unless they do**. Hey, I can't keep up with everything on your plate.
**Or you ARE a dinosaur***.
***Not an agist quip.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me if you think you'll still be at Epic (or even in game development) in 20 years. In your case, given your age, I'll make it 11 years. I'm saying you're out of the industry that you love almost more than life itself by 50. Of course, maybe you'll be rich enough to retire by then anyway, in which case crunch away! Who needs youth?
If I still need to be working at that point, sure. There is nowhere else I'd rather work than here.I'm still waiting for you to tell me if you think you'll still be at Epic (or even in game development) in 20 years. In your case, given your age, I'll make it 12 years. I'm saying you're out of the industry that you love almost more than life itself by 53.
Wow. Now that's pretty damn archaic in terms of stuff that you'd actually use to do business programming these days. It's not exactly a foregone conclusion that the new graduate legitimately knows the difference between a pointer and a variable, much less that kind of low-level tree structure stuff. I graduated a few years ago and we only touched trees and heaps as abstract data structures and a vehicle to cover the heap sort.
Do game people still do that?
Wait, seriously? That's shameful if true.
Sorry, I posted that before I ever saw this thread.
I skimmed. I didn't see one useful argument so I didn't reply to any of them. Again, liking your job doesn't change science or reality.Read the preceding 19 pages and get back to me.
Only the ones who need to make their games awesome.
Beautiful.I skimmed.
Use NTFS? You're using B+ trees.
"Archaic"? Kids these days!
Ouch says the database guy.
Thank CIS programs, man. Programming has officially been around long enough for universities to create programmers that don't know how programming works, which as I recall was one of the original motivations behind building Java (basically, a bunch of idiots who didn't know how to clean up after C++ - which, admittedly, is like trying to clean out the Augean Stables with a teaspoon - needed something to handle concurrency and pointers and all the piddly cleanup crap that older programmers spent their lives figuring out). It's worse on the business programming side though, because at this point you need to know all that stuff to write really slick VB .NET code, but not to write just functional stuff. I was quite honestly shocked when I got out and started working on actual code at a big business and nobody knew what the hell I was talking about when I started throwing around terms like "asynchronous execution" and "concurrency problem."
An hilarious ferinstance - I'm not going to name names, because I was working with a very nice lady, but I come into the second company I worked for and they've got this gigantic ongoing project to put together what basically amounts to a clunky version of squarespace for their users to maintain their own damn data on the website instead of having to bother us about it. Well, one day after she's gone on to a new job, a problem comes up the queue and I get tasked to handle it. Seems that people are in the system and making changes on the test instance and really, REALLY weird crap was happening. Like, User A is over here trying to change the text for Site Page 2 and he's getting text he never, ever put in that shows up and it doesn't make any sense. I get into the guts of the system, and I find out that every single variable for every single page has been declared Shared. Turns out that this very nice programmer wanted her variable data to persist across page submissions - a reasonable thing to want - but didn't know what the viewstate was, so she thought that the Shared keyword was how you do that, without knowing what in the tin plated all fired holy hell a Shared variable was in the first damn place, which is something you should pick up in your basic CS courses.
This is not entirely uncommon in my experience. Just take a look at a random average business's .NET code.
Yes. Yes I am. But I'm not searching them with my own code, which is my point. Are game programmers still having to do that level of way-down-in-the-guts nonsense to get their code to work all good?
Depends; do you want it to work or do you want it to work quickly on the consoles?
Once again, shameful.
My CS program, which I graduated out of not too long ago (I'm not telling when!), required courses in basic logic, circuit construction, data structures, and compilers in order to graduate. I may not be able to write a compiler or build a computer out of circuits, but dammit, I certainly have a general idea how they work.
That's the best you've got... fair enough.
Duuuuuuude. My deepest and most abiding sympathies. That's like four steps removed from having to build your own OS to release a word processor. Not that I wouldn't find it awesome to actually do, but that must add hella overhead to the amount of work the programmers have to do.
Don't get me wrong; most game programmers aren't writing low level file system routines or re-writing stl these days. It's just that if you want the best out of consoles, you have to write code tailored to those machines & structure your data around them. Always been the case & likely will for quite a while. It's part of the fun :)
This is all kind of a moot point. I think this where we'll be (in general) in the next 50 years..
So get rich soon. Good Luck.Deploying the armies of laborers at BYD is an officer corps of managers and engineers who invent and design the products. Today the company employs about 10,000 engineers who have graduated from the company's training programs - some 40% of those who enter either drop out or are dismissed - and another 7,000 new college graduates are being trained. Wang says the engineers come from China's best schools. "They are the top of the top," he says. "They are very hard-working, and they can compete with anyone." BYD can afford to hire lots of them because their salaries are only about $600 to $700 a month; they also get subsidized housing in company-owned apartment complexes and low-cost meals in BYD canteens. "They're basically breathing, eating, thinking, and working at the company 24/7," says a U.S. executive who has studied BYD.
I'll believe it when I see it. Repeatedly.
My experience with offshoring has lamentably been more than I would have liked, but if the universities in China are anything like the universities providing training to the folks in Bangalore and the various Indian facilities, those guys come out knowing how to turn a very strictly composed requirements document into functional code and literally nothing else. It's like feeding your requirements to an ill-tempered robot that goes off like a car alarm any time you don't define what you want precisely to its standards. I'm forced to wonder why none of the companies rushing to send their business there haven't just invested the money in having somebody write a halfway decent Z-to-source engine and cut the meat entirely out of the chain, since you have to nail down your stuff to practically that level of meticulous detail to avoid wasting more hours cycling back and forth over precisely how he should write the damn login page than it would have taken to just do it yourself. Given this thread's conclusions with respect to general industry effectiveness when it comes to composing their requirements for games, I think that the games programmers, at least, are safe.
On the business side......we'll see.
Older programmers like James Gosling, you mean?
Yes. Who else would be able to write a generic semaphore for all the people that think I'm talking about air traffic control. It wasn't the only reason - my understanding of Java is that its biggest thing was the virtual machine idea - but it was a reason among many.
My point is that "pointers and all the piddly cleanup crap" were absent from LISP, the language that James Gosling--originator of Java--cut his teeth on. The concurrency features in Java are less LISP-inspired, but in general the language is an attempt at creating a fusion of some of LISP's features with ALGOL syntax.
And if you want to say that LISP programmers "don't know how programming works"...well, you have fun with that.
You mean the language that I learned all that AI stuff in? That I STILL wish SQL would perform like sometimes?
Dude, I love LISP. I wouldn't say that it bears much of a relationship to business programming today, as evidenced by the incredible dearth of LISP positions for me to play with, but it's totally legitimate.
I'm just telling you what was pitched to me. I don't want to program in Java, ever - I've just got a bad taste about the whole thing - but the pitch I got throughout my entire college experience, and subsequently in the workforce, was basically C++, but should be able to run on anything, and its mum makes it wear a bicycle helmet 24/7.
But Java has been handed to people incapable of even grasping the intellectual concept of pointer indirection. Give them their Excel back!
*shrug*
If you want to listen to idiots, that's your own lookout. C++ runs on more platforms than Java. I have no clue what you're talking about with bicycle helmets, especially as you profess to like LISP.
The hits just keep coming in this thread. Smack talk to the max, yo!
Ooo, did this turn into a Java vs C++ thread? Because I totally want in on that action.
Java is a great tool for productive high speed development of very portable applications. Assuming, of course, that the java programmers are supervised by experienced C++ programmers.
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