GRRM has indicated that Ned named Jon. There is some theoryplay that he was named after Jon Connington and people just assume it's Jon Arryn, so the question would still stand unless A) L+R=J is true and B) Jon Arryn knows. Maybe Rhaegar gave him a name and Jon Snow is just an alias. Perhaps he's Aemon or Daeron Rivers.
Either way, it is not meant to be a wholly serious question.
Fair enough. "Likely" named is clearly wrong on my part, then, I haven't gotten past book 2 in my re-reading. The alias thing sounds right, though, given where things seem to be headed. Maybe it will all culminate in a joyful incestuous marriage!Originally Posted by Bahimiron
Well, that wouldn't be unusual for Targaryens though.
God, I love the snark that the show's official blog posts
http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/p...-sympathy.html
I've really enjoyed what Dinklage has done with Tyrion, but this last episode I found it to be a little grating. In pretty much every scene Tyrion goads whoever he's talking to only to make a snide apology and a somewhat self-deprecating statement about being a dwarf. I feel like the writers have a Mad Lib form that they're just filling in for all of Tyrion's lines now.
I think what Dinklage has done with his accent (in addition to the tight editing) has made it difficult for him to come across as sincere except when he's being sharp tongued in his responses. It makes Tyrion feel a bit more two dimensional than he came across in the books for me.
God! I'm glad someone broached the subject before I did. I didn't want to be the sole subject of the pile-on.
I like Dinklage and I like Tyrion, but this is exactly what I feared would happen to the character on a TV show. He is coming across as completely two dimensional. In contrast to the book, he can barely get a piece of dialogue without snidely calling attention to his height and dropping a passive aggressive insult.
I know most readers like him exactly for that, but he loses a lot of depth without the other facets of his character. I hope it gets better as the show goes on, but I have a feeling Tyrion will always be the snarky dwarf rather than a person to respect or sympathize with.
Much easier for me to stomach. I mean -- and not to cross-examine you further -- there's a difference between being not a good leader and being illogical, suicidal, chickenshit, moronic, or the one responsible for your own death. That question is more what I saw Martin as posing, and there are a lot of arguments to be made on each side, starting with what it means to be a good leader (one of the central themes of the books, and particularly the first book).
He certainly doesn't achieve his goals. But it's possible his goals were not achievable -- if you assume that they included both following the law and protecting his family. I agree, though, that he's written as someone who is out of his depth in King's Landing and that that is key to his failure (but not death, except in the most general "but for" sense).But most of his decisions as Hand are simply low quality decisions given the available evidence
Why would I take a shot at you for being a freaking Marine? It would be like taking a shot at someone for being a firefighter, or curing AIDS. It was a genuine attempt to go "How can you simultaneously believe X and Y?" and draw an analogy.Well, I don't think it's germane to the discussion and I have trouble seeing at as a question asked in good faith rather than a cheap shot. I'm doubly suspicious when you respond by acting like I was out of line to make a crack about your profession.
Which is not at all what you were doing, so you were out of line, although I don't mind. But I don't want you to think I was taking a personal shot at you, because I wasn't.
I think that last part is a bit harsh, but otherwise I agree that that's pretty much the central point of his character.I don't think being critical of him is any different from being critical of Ulysses S. Grant as a president while appreciating him as a military leader. Most people can't operate in the different levels of policy with equal competence, and a failure to recognize those limitations is usually either hubris or foolishness.
Why can't he genuinely feel that honor (or justice, or whatever) requires him to act a certain way, rather than "using it as a shield"? I think he understands that he's starting a fight and will be in harm's way, he just miscalculates. And even in his miscalculation, he would have just taken the black and his family would have been safe, but for the impulsive decision of Joffrey that nobody else acts in time to stop. I don't think that was fairly foreseeable by anyone, unless you want to say every character in King's Landing is a fool.He uses his personal honor as a shield for his inability to grapple with reality on its terms. I just don't see how it's possible to view him as a worthy leader given how clearly the books spell out the extent to which he was unmade by his own hand (lol).
Fair enough. We probably agree more than it initially seemed like.Also, keep in mind that I was responding lightly to the charge that Sansa was primarily responsible for Ned's death. In retrospect, I surely would have chosen adjectives better suited for cross-examination.
Wow, I totally disagree about Dinklage/Tyrion. He's snarky, but he has several scenes that show more complexity. In particular, when people talk straight and treat him with respect, he does the same (with Jon, with the leaders at the Wall, etc.). He also shows some depth in the way he reacts to Bran's accident (both with the Starks, and with the Lannisters).
I think part of it is that he's sarcastic and quick to own the dwarf thing when people are snarking at him, and much of the time in these early episodes people are snarking at him. I don't think they're going to pull a Gimli here.
Obviously every scene isn't him filling out that Madlib, but there are quite a few that are similar. For example, the scene between Tyrion and Theon from the last episode is almost exactly the same as the scene between Tyrion and Jon Snow when they first met. I think he even says, "Forgive me because I'm having a bad day," in both scenes. Regardless, what was awesome about Tyrion is now quickly wearing thin.
Hmm...
Patriot Games....check!
GoldenEye....check!
Fellowship....check!
Equilibrium....check!
Huh.
Did he die in Ronin? I can't remember.
He's just exposed as a fraud in Ronin. Or else he's pretending to be a fraud to help Robert DeNiro's cover! Maybe.
He comes out okay in Troy and he at least survives National Treasure.
He's led a long and, well, somewhat happy life as Richard Sharpe though!
Having just re-read the first book, I don't really think the show is too far off. Tyrion almost ALWAYS makes a self-deprecating joke about his size or (later) his appearance. Most of the lines in the show have been close to verbatim... and when they throw in a non-book scene (like the exchange with Greyjoy), they seem to be pulling lines from other (not included) scenes
That's fine, it's not the first time that stating something hyperbolically led to needless conflict on the internet. There is a difference, but that's where you enter the purely subjective territory of which perspective you favor in the story and how that tinges your choice of adjectives. I'm a Lannister partisan through and through so I'm more forgiving of their errors and would qualify them less harshly, more than likely.
Right, but the part of the law he's inflexible on ought to be much more negotiable and not of equal weight. We're not talking about his Northern Sacred Boogaloo here, and when every single other factor (family, realm stability, etc) is imperiled by it, he goes to extreme and deceptive lengths to protect it (which he's terrible at, so it has predictable results). How he dealt with Robert's last will and testament was every bit as dishonorable as imprisoning the queen would have been, if not more; if you're going to be the hard sword of justice you can't get all bendy because your pal is dying. And for chrissakes say something on the way out, don't just get your head chopped off so the first time anyone hears Joff is a bastard is from Stannis.He certainly doesn't achieve his goals. But it's possible his goals were not achievable -- if you assume that they included both following the law and protecting his family. I agree, though, that he's written as someone who is out of his depth in King's Landing and that that is key to his failure (but not death, except in the most general "but for" sense).
It's a profession like any other that people are critical of, and it seemed about as relevant as how I responded to it. At any rate, I hope you found my explanation satisfactory, thus demonstrating that it was not my intention to simultaneously advocate two different things.Why would I take a shot at you for being a freaking Marine? It would be like taking a shot at someone for being a firefighter, or curing AIDS. It was a genuine attempt to go "How can you simultaneously believe X and Y?" and draw an analogy.
Which is not at all what you were doing, so you were out of line, although I don't mind. But I don't want you to think I was taking a personal shot at you, because I wasn't.
Because he was very flexible as a rebel, and willing to make all sorts of compromises as he usurped the throne driven by a desire for personal vengeance above all other things. So he knows how to put it down as needed or when peer pressured by Robert, he just doesn't have the will to do it when he doesn't have others to force his hand.Why can't he genuinely feel that honor (or justice, or whatever) requires him to act a certain way, rather than "using it as a shield"? I think he understands that he's starting a fight and will be in harm's way, he just miscalculates.
There we are squarely in Fortuna territory. That is surely bad luck that Joff is kind of a psycho, but it was his own errors and missteps that allowed him to be at his mercy. Naturally, you regard his mistakes more generously than I do, so it's going to seem less of his own making. But at least we can agree that it wasn't Sansa!And even in his miscalculation, he would have just taken the black and his family would have been safe, but for the impulsive decision of Joffrey that nobody else acts in time to stop. I don't think that was fairly foreseeable by anyone, unless you want to say every character in King's Landing is a fool.
That's probably true.Fair enough. We probably agree more than it initially seemed like.
Yeah, but the difference is that you get a lot more rounded view of Tyrion in the book thanks to his POV. In the show, you're just watching Dinklage smirk and say something witty.
Don't get me wrong, I think a few of the other characters suffer the same fate on the show as well. I just think people are heaping a lot of praise on Tyrion because he's the favorite, a smart-ass, and being played by Dinklage.
Exactly. It's almost like a "Best of Tyrion!" montage without anything holding it together.
Unlike the treatment every other character receives you mean? So far, it's mainly a fast-forward Best of character X lines and scenes and I expect that will continue. I do feel that the show is doing a pretty good job of it though.
Well, also because Tyrion seems to be one of the few characters with perspective. Everyone seems wrapped up in their own agendas and games and secrets, and Tyrion has the ability to step back and see the relationships between things. Part of this is surely GRRM/HBO using Tyrion as a mechanism for the audience, but it still makes him more interesting than most everyone else.
He named his Daughter after Jon Arryn (Arya) :P
Well, as well as one would expect Odysseus to come out. Have fun getting home, old Bean!
Fittingly enough, the screenwriter of Troy was Benioff.
I haven't read the books, seen any of the series or read any of the thread, but the intro makes it look like a Rankin/Bass production. I'll grab it when it comes out on DVD, but I hope it has Heatmiser and Rudolph and Frosty.
Happy birthday.
This is fair. It's just that when all of one's lines are delivered with a sneer, it starts to become a little silly, at least to me.
I'm guessing the goal here is to make the character look a bit of a fool so that they have something to play against later on when he starts to reveal himself as a genuine player in the game.
A fantastic interview with Oscar winning editor Angus Wall. His company did the title sequence, and there's desktop-worthy images here.
http://www.artofthetitle.com/
This was a great episode. However, please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not remember a bj scene between Renly and the Knight of Flowers. What was all that? I remember reading that Martin intended for Renly to be gay, but I don't remember any scenes being quite so.....blunt..about it.
That scene definitely isn't in the books, and does a disservice to both characters IMO. I'm not sure GRRM will care for that scene, two openly gay characters, one effeminate and squeamish, and both scheming little bastards.
I thought it was a terrible episode, too many invented scenes with poor dialogue and characters acting out of character (particularly Varys and Littlefinger). And I knew they were building up to that stupid duel between Ned and Jaime. . .blech. And booo to not using Rhaenys' old black cat for the Arya scene.
Another 58 minutes that felt like 28. While there was a lot of change and some additional exposition in this episode, I felt most of it was fine and donein a way that would give viewers the same information as readers ina fraction of the time. The exception to this is the Loras/Renly scene. What the fuck? Seriously, nowhere in the books is it implicitly stated that Renly (or Loras for that matter) is gay, though it is hinted at in various exchanges after his death, especially where Margarey and her maidenhood are concerned. The open accusation leveled against Renly at the tournament and what will forever live in infamy as "the BJ scene" (complete with sound effects so no one could mistake what was happening) was a pretty ham-fisted way of outing these characters, and I can't really understand the reasoning behind it at all.
I also don't recall Gregor beheading his horse, though it's been a bit since I reread the first book. I bet the same folks that were upset over Lady's death have an outcry over that scene as well. I know my wife literally exclaimed out loud when it happened, and yelled at me to warn her next time something like that was coming.
Poor Jory. Even though I knew what was coming I still felt shock and sadness at his death. I'm a little ticked that they didn't protray him as getting away, then riding back to save Ned as in the books, but he still took several Lannister guardsmen with him so he's no less a hero.
Arya was great as usual in this episode, and I like how they setup the brief meeting between her and Yoren. The small council scenes and the scenes with Varys were all done well and really imparted a lot of information in a short span, so hopefully non-readers now have a much better grasp of who is who and what exactly is going on with the various players at this point. Theon's scene was jarring and confusing at first, and probably could have been pushed to a later episode.
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