Measles endemic in the UK

[Angie Gallant]

So yeah, there's enough unvaccinated kids in the UK to support a thriving community of measles. I figure since that we imported their autism-research quackpots over here to the US, we should be following suit pretty soon.

[Jojo]

I'm generally pro-vaccine, but I did balk at my sons 1yr checkup when the doctor wanted to immunise him against Chicken Pox. He got the MMR and all the other vaccines, but I do question whether its really worth vaccinating against chicken pox? The mortality rate for chicken pox is incredibly low (as I understand it from the pediatrician himself, cannot be bothered to google for confirmation), it seems a bit silly.

I had heard a story on the radio recently about how the chicken pox vaccine means that cases of shingles in adults are rising - since kids don't get chicken pox anymore, they don't expose adults to it again, so adults don't get the "booster" from that. Then during times of stress and tiredness, the pox can arise again within the adult and infect them with shingles (which is hellish). Perhaps this will fix itself over time, as this generation of unvaccinated kids become adults, and they don't have any pox lurking inside to resurface as shingles? Or how would that work in the long term? Will everyone have to have booster shots their whole life?

[SpoofyChop]

My daughter has a mild form of Autism but I have always been very skeptical of any vaccine link but the other day I saw this article that was a bit disturbing. It's about some kids that had extremely severe reactions to vaccines.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/he...ne.html?ref=us

The Poling case, however, offered advocates a new theory: that vaccines may cause or contribute to an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which in turn causes autism.

We just took our daughter in to her yearly checkup and she got a single vaccine booster. I'm not going to change what we do because of a very small number of anecdotes but it is a little scary to contemplate what we don't know about how Autism works.

Luckily my daughter is doing fantastic and I hope she'll eventually be somebody that can be considered "cured" of Autism.

[Kalle]

We have vaccines which have drastically reduced child mortality (and adult mortality, to a lesser extent) for over a hundred years with incredibly good results.

And people want to disregard that because they're afraid there's a remote chance their kid will develop autism which, unlike most of the diseases your kid will be vaccinated against, is not lethal. Has anyone run the odds for dead kid vs autistic kid?

[Jojo]

Has anyone run the odds for dead kid vs autistic kid?

its completely unknown, since the vaccines=autism link is unproven, therefore it seems scarier.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm pretty sure I had to get a measels shot when I moved to Alabama my senior year. State law. It was that or mumps...maybe both.

[RichardC]

its completely unknown, since the vaccines=autism link is unproven, therefore it seems scarier.

No, it's been debunked. Completely. At this point, it's like saying that you shouldn't drink milk in case it gives you lung cancer. Why would it? Intuition! A mother knows... Just ask Hollywood celebrities!

There's no links between the two things, every medical study looking at the specific claims instead of a hand-waving 'well, you never quite know...' has come back negative. The whole anti-vaccination movement is based on utter bullshit, to the point that people campaign for the removal of things that aren't even in the vaccines, have been completely removed, or simply share a chemical with something like antifreeze. The increased numbers of reported cases are easily attributable to increased diagnoses, and in any event, correlation isn't causation. Conversely, there's ridiculous amounts of proof that getting your shots is not only only good for individuals, but incredibly important for society as a whole.

If the anti-vaccination crowd come up with something scientifically testable, fine, absolutely that should be dealt with. Except that's not how it works. They complain about mercury, then when scientists point out that there's no mercury in the damn things in the first place, they turn right back round and say 'Yes, but imagine if there was!' before scooting onto some other avenue of complete arse.

[Kalle]

its completely unknown, since the vaccines=autism link is unproven, therefore it seems scarier.

I'm more curious about the difference in mortality between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids in first world countries with high levels of basic medical care, assuming there are enough unvaccinated kids around to do a study on.

[Eightball]

My daughter has a mild form of Autism but I have always been very skeptical of any vaccine link but the other day I saw this article that was a bit disturbing. It's about some kids that had extremely severe reactions to vaccines.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/he...ne.html?ref=us

Spoofy, first, I understand you're particularly sensitive to the autism-vaccine link (and I appreciate you being very open-minded about it), but you should absolutely know that studies have shown over and over there's no link between autism and vaccination.

As for your cited story, read that article carefully, and understand that you're pulling far more from it than you should.

The Poling case, however, offered advocates a new theory: that vaccines may cause or contribute to an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which in turn causes autism. Although autism is common among children with mitochondrial disorders, several experts in the disorders dismissed the notion that vaccines may cause the disease, which is widely understood to have a genetic origin.

“After caring for hundreds of children with mitochondrial disease, I can’t recall a single one that had a complication from vaccination,” said Dr. Darryl De Vivo, a professor of neurology and [COLOR=#004276]pediatrics[/COLOR] at [COLOR=#004276]Columbia University[/COLOR] who will present at the meeting on Sunday and is one of the premier experts in the field.

And then remember that:

Dr. De Vivo said as many as 700,000 people in the United States had flawed mitochondria, and in roughly 30,000 of them the genetic flaws were expansive enough to cause disease.

What that article doesn't spell out for you is that 700,000 people is 0.23% of our population. And only 0.01% of the population have the genetic flaws to be symptomatic?

That's rare as hell. And then link this:

Many experts said infections could be so devastating to those with mitochondrial disorders that the risks associated with vaccines were far outweighed by the benefits. Still, none dismissed the notion that a vaccine could cause a decline in such children.
“Most of these kids get a [COLOR=#004276]common cold[/COLOR], and either during the cold or soon after, the parents notice a drastic deterioration,” said Dr. Bruce H. Cohen, a neurologist at the Cleveland Clinic.

These kids are already incredibly susceptible to infection, and it's really no shocker that a vaccination may trigger a reaction. However, the risk/benefit of vaccination versus no vaccination, on the 0.23% chance that you (or your kid) has a mitochondrial disorder, or a 0.01% chance you (or your kid) has a mitochondrial disorder enough to trigger a serious reaction to a vaccine (when those kids are already highly susceptible to regular infections anyways)...it's a no-brainer.

[RichardC]

(I should point out, this is one of those subjects that makes me very angry. My brother's autistic, and I find the anti-vaccination crowd flat-out abusing that illness to push their scientifically invalid agenda deeply sick. It's one thing to believe the false claims - that's absolutely fair enough, it's an immediately emotive subject and one that most folks simply won't know about. But the people who push this stuff globally, especially on the talk show circuit where the paranoia about perfectly safe vaccines really starts spreading, have no excuse not to have done their homework, and absolutely no excuse for what they're doing.)

[Jason McCullough]

The persistence of the anti-vaccine thing amazes me. I really don't get it.

[Jojo]

I'm more curious about the difference in mortality between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids in first world countries with high levels of basic medical care, assuming there are enough unvaccinated kids around to do a study on.

The problem is that unvaccinated kids are basically trading off the fact that they are surrounded by vaccinated kids, therefore they are less likely to be exposed to anything, therefore they are unlikely to catch the diseases. So the anti-vaccine parents can continue on their merry way, and the study wouldn't prove anything conclusive, no? It would be an interesting study if there was a first-world country where almost all kids were unvaccinated.

I seem to remember San Diego County had a measles outbreak recently, because there is a higher-than-normal amount of unvaccinated kids, or something.

[Fugitive]

The persistence of the anti-vaccine thing amazes me. I really don't get it.

The parents of autistic children are fairly understandable; people like to have something to blame, it's emotionally powerful to them, and "SCIENCE RUINED MY BABY!" is an easy target.

Otherwise, I suspect it's the same general anti-"for your own good"-authoritarian feelings that people often have regarding things like seat belt and helmet laws, and they just don't think or care about the broader public health consequences in this case.

[Jojo]

No, it's been debunked. Completely.

Like I said, I am generally pro-vaccine, and in light of your later post I can understand why it makes you angry, but I honestly don't think you can completely debunk the theory, until the cause of autism is known definitively. Maybe its a contributing factor? Maybe its complete bullshit. While the extreme end of the anti-vaccine crowd do spout some hippie crap, the extreme end of the medical/drug manufacturing industry don't help either, with their dodgy vaccine manufacturer funded "studies". I just choose to believe that everyone who expresses an opinion on this highly-charged subject has some agenda, and not to believe any of them entirely. Like everything in life, its better to keep a slightly open mind, make your own decision and keep an eye on what's being said.

My son will probably get his Chicken Pox vaccine at his next appointment in a few weeks, just so the vaccines are spread out a bit. I don't think he's going to get autism from it, I just think its slightly silly to vaccinate against pox and bad practise to give a very small child a huge amount of shots in one go. Apart from anything else, if he has a reaction afterwards, its harder to tell which shot caused it.

[SpoofyChop]

Spoofy, first, I understand you're particularly sensitive to the autism-vaccine link (and I appreciate you being very open-minded about it), but you should absolutely know that studies have shown over and over there's no link between autism and vaccination.

I'm not particularly sensitive to the link...that's exactly why we haven't skipped any vaccinations.

:)

But the article was a bit disturbing like I said. I just wish we understood the causes of autism better.

[RichardC]

I honestly don't think you can completely debunk the theory, until the cause of autism is known definitively

Not true, and not only because it's not a theory. A theory is something specific. It doesn't matter what the overall root 'cause' of autism is, because that's got absolutely nothing to do with the argument being held out. The claim is that x causes y. That's fine. That's testable. When it's been tested, it's not held up to scrutiny. In short, game over, and for a good reason.

Unfortunately, science isn't how the anti-vaccination crowd plays the game. Like most pseudoscience proponents, they don't care about the science, only the overall agenda - which is full-on anti-vaccination, not protecting kids. I'd have more time for them if they'd just be honest about their objection, whether it's personal freedom or whatever, but if they want to play scientist, all that matters is the truth.

Take the mercury example. As soon as that was knocked on the head, they... continued pushing it. Even when there was no mercury in the vaccines, they were recommending people not take them. When challenged, like all pseudoscientists, they immediately moved onto "Yes, but what about X?" just to keep the message alive. Their arguments are terrible. They claim that vaccines contain antifreeze because they recognise a couple of chemical names the two things have in common. They claim that vaccines give you various diseases, through a complete misunderstanding of what's actually happening. And so on. They're not even using new arguments for the most part - the bulk of what you hear has been floating around since the days of smallpox.

Bluntly, this is the medical equivalent of Creationism (in terms of tactic rather than being based on the supernatural) and the Flat Earth Society. This isn't science. It's not even in the same building as science. It has no business pretending to be science. And in a toss-up between science and not-science, I know which one I want taking responsibility for my health.

An open mind is being willing to look at the evidence, and perform the tests. At some point though, something like this is either true or not true, relevant or not relevant. It's not a matter of opinion. If they can come up with a solid reason why vaccinations are a bad idea, the medical community will look at them like they did with the mercury thing. There's no question of that. Despite what so many pseudoscientists claim, doctors aren't part of some grand conspiracy, and both they and scientists would sell their teeth for the chance to play that kind of role in saving so many kids.

Right now though, the evidence shows that the AV crowd is logically, critically, and above all, empirically wrong. That hasn't changed anyone's mind, only made them move their focus to the PR battle, and worse, using scared parents as their weapon. The more their nonsense spreads, the more parents are going to keep potentially vital jabs from their kids, both putting them at risk, and their communities.

That makes this an issue that people can't afford to sit on the sidelines and hem-haw over. As soon as there's a breakout, or worse, a pandemic, it affects everyone. All staying quiet does is give the whole floor to what so far has proven nothing but scaremongering nonsense.

[Athryn]

I'm generally pro-vaccine, but I did balk at my sons 1yr checkup when the doctor wanted to immunise him against Chicken Pox. He got the MMR and all the other vaccines, but I do question whether its really worth vaccinating against chicken pox? The mortality rate for chicken pox is incredibly low (as I understand it from the pediatrician himself, cannot be bothered to google for confirmation), it seems a bit silly.

Did you have chicken pox as a child? I remember it quite vividly, as I had a pretty bad case of it. If I had kids, I would never want to them through the suffering I had to go through, as well as the scars (luckily, almost all of the ones on my face are gone, but I still have plenty of white scars all over the rest of my body.) If there had been a vaccine at the time, I would have hoped my parents would have given it to me.

[RichardC]

I had chicken pox as a kid, but it was fine. It barely itched, and just meant getting to have a week off school. But yeah, it varies a lot from person to person, and the older you are when you get it, the worse it is.

[Robert Sharp]

I agree with Athryn. There's more to diseases than mortality rate. Just because you can't die doesn't mean it isn't painful. The scars can be bad in some cases. I don't have any Chicken Pox scars. My case wasn't that bad, and I was only 3 at the time. But I wouldn't base a decision on mortality rates. What's the downside to getting the vaccine?

[RichardC]

In the UK, we don't (AFAIK) really have one as a routine innoculation, unlike things like German measles and TB. A lot of parents encourage their kids to visit schoolmates with it, just to get them infected early and get it out of the way. That said, you can get a jab if you want. I'm pretty sure the only real side-effect is a sore arm and slight red mark.

[Jason McCullough]

The parents of autistic children are fairly understandable; people like to have something to blame, it's emotionally powerful to them, and "SCIENCE RUINED MY BABY!" is an easy target.

Sure, but why vaccines, though? Why not certain kinds of food, or fluoridated water, or power lines EM fields, or cell phone emissions?

[RichardC]

Heh. You should have seen England during the BSE crisis...

[VictoriaWong]

Dead kid to autistic kid ratio depends on rate of infection in community.
Also, one of the recent San Diego "outbreaks" was a bunch of people having measles parties.

[PeterGinsberg]

Sure, but why vaccines, though? Why not certain kinds of food, or fluoridated water, or power lines EM fields, or cell phone emissions?

Don't forget TV, they blame that too.

The one explanation they never buy is that the increase in autism might have something to do with more awareness of the disorder and the reclassification of it is a spectrum. I guess that has less appeal because there isn't something concrete to blame.

[charmtrap]

Also, one of the recent San Diego "outbreaks" was a bunch of people having measles parties.

Whaat? Jesus, measles is potentially deadly...some parents should just be shot.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Whaat? Jesus, measles is potentially deadly...some parents should just be shot.

Also potentially deadly!

[Robert Sharp]

I think he meant shot in the leg, but carefully. Bring the pain but not the death.

[AndrewM]

Sure, but why vaccines, though? Why not certain kinds of food, or fluoridated water, or power lines EM fields, or cell phone emissions?

I think the theory is that vaccinations occur around the time that the first signs of autism show up, and that when autism does show up it tends to be a regression from earlier behavior. So, your kid is doing fine, then they get a vaccine and suddenly things are worse.

[wisefool]

Whaat? Jesus, measles is potentially deadly...some parents should just be shot.

Last week, I just learned Chinese people deliberately expose their babies too - The logic being the disease is more deadly in adulthood. Apparently, one of us got it first so they put all us cousins and siblings together to "get it over with".

There was an interesting CDC report on influenza outbreaks - it would make more sense to vaccinate preschool kids than senior citizens. I guess it's cause kids share all their boogers.

[Funkula]

Yeah, there are quite a few diseases that have more severe effects when contracted in adulthood, so the traditional method was for parents to make sure their kids got it when they were young. I didn't know measles was one, but the adult effects of chicken pox and mumps are fucking horrible, while the juvenile versions are merely sucky.

Of course, now we have vaccines, so we don't have to do that anymore, but I can't fault people for doing the second most responsible thing after having ruled out the first for some stupid-ass reason.