Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Finally a worthy sequel

[Chuck Jordan]

Is nobody playing the latest sequel to the best game ever made, or am I just missing out on all the discussion?

Ever since I finished Final Fantasy Tactics for the fourth time, I've been waiting for a game that I enjoyed as much. The Front Mission series is fine, but not the same; Disgaea was good but goofy and kind of random; and Jeanne d'Arc is really good, but was actually too story-driven for me, and I never thought I'd say that about a videogame. Even War of the Lions was missing something, because I never realized how much of the charm of the original was based on its goofy translation.

I was really disappointed in FFT Advance, mainly because of the annoying "law" system, but also because the interface was kind of clunky (thousands of equipment items, but no "optimize" option?), and it had the feel of "here's a billion characters and races and missions and items and classes, go make your own game with it."

The new one fixes almost every problem I had with FFTA, and I haven't enjoyed a game as much as this one in a long time. It's got a great balance of story missions and random missions. The job system is even more wide-open than FFTA's, but doesn't require grinding for "job points" like the original. And the whole loot->bazaar->weapon-crafting->job system ties everything together.

I read complaints on SA that the law system was "nerfed," but I say it's been "fixed." It gives you an interesting side-challenge for every mission, but with a more reasonable penalty for losing it, and a much more satisfying reward for winning it.

It remains to be seen if it's still enjoyable after the first few areas, or if the 400 quests and 50 job classes just gets overwhelming. But so far, I'm loving every bit of it.

[Gendal]

I was going to start a thread but was wanting to wait till I put more time in it. Right now, 5-6 hours in, I absolutely agree with you. I couldn't stand Final Fantasy Tactics Advance but Advance 2 is loads of fun.

The law system rewards instead of punishes (outside of not allowing phoenix feathers), the job system based on item skills is my favorite yet, and the overall feel of combat is significantly faster. I don't even mind the Bazaar system since I enjoy the slot machine feel of it.

So if you hated FFTA but liked FFT then run, don't walk, to pick up FFTA2. Also, no hour long snow ball fights before you get to the actual game, the intro is a fraction the size of the original.

[Tortilla]

I was going to start a thread but was wanting to wait till I put more time in it.

Heh, ditto. I searched on the topic a few hours ago to see if there was a thread I could get advice from.

Right now I have nothing but rage for this game because I forgot that DS batteries don't last forever and I played for like 12 hours over the weekend without saving. So I need to calm down before I can pick it up again. This is the kind of game where losing hard fought grindy (but in the good way) progress is very upsetting.

[Brian Seiler]

The critical question I have: does it still have as little guidance in the use of its job system as the prior games? I've tried both previous Tactics titles and ended up tossing them aside because I hit a point (usually pretty early) where I had approximately eight billion wrong choices I could make with my cast of characters, maybe a hundred right choices, and no way to tell one from the other without trying it and failing horribly.

[slantz]

So one thing that annoyed me about FFTA was that you learned skills via weapons. Yet what weapons went with what class wasn't particularly clear in ever screen, and I felt like I had to juggle characters back and forth between classes to basically learn the skills in the order the game decided to give them to me in, since weapons were carefully and deliberately rationed in a specific order as time went on.

This is a pretty big change from FFT, where there was no limit on what skill or class you could be at any time, except for the class pre-reqs, of course. But the game never said "You can't be a Dragon Knight until *I* say so."

That point-spending-at-my-whim mechanics from FFT were a large part of its magic for me. Where does FFTA2 sit in that spectrum? Is it the same as FFTA, or is it different?

[Tortilla]

That point-spending-at-my-whim mechanics from FFT were a large part of its magic for me. Where does FFTA2 sit in that spectrum? Is it the same as FFTA, or is it different?

It's more annoying that FFTA in that regard, at least to me so far. The weapons to unlock abilities are more random now as they come from a crafting system wherein certain materials are needed for certain weapons. Materials are rewarded randomly in missions though they do make sure that the main quest missions reward the important rare ones. But it can make for an annoying bottleneck where you go a long time without getting the weapon and thus ability wanted if you aren't finding the right materials.

As far as I'm concerned FFT had the best job system ever and no other FF game before or since has come near it. FFTA and FFTA2 are good fun, but they are still below the FFT gold standard in a lot of ways.

[Jab]

One complaint I've read about is that battles take longer due to interface issues. Like having to confirm every action, how long are battles in FFTA2?

[Tortilla]

One complaint I've read about is that battles take longer due to interface issues. Like having to confirm every action, how long are battles in FFTA2?

I haven't noticed this. No worse than the original FFTA I guess. FFT games are all sort of slow paced and grindy by nature so I would think any fans of the genre already accustomed to other similar games would feel okay with the pacing of FFTA2.

[BleedTheFreak]

One complaint I've read about is that battles take longer due to interface issues. Like having to confirm every action, how long are battles in FFTA2?

That's an odd statement, honestly it's like identical to FFT, with the exception you can finally undo a move action if you find you can't attack from where you moved to like you might like to (in FFT if you moved, that was it, no take-backs). So I guess battles could take longer if you undo your moves a lot, but I'd rather that than the alternative.

I don't really have ANY problems with the interface, it's unobtrusive, easy to follow, and everything seems to work like it's supposed to. You have a nextra button press once you confirm your attack to clear the Me vs You quick-info card that pops up, but if you don't press a button that screen drops away in just a few seconds on it's own.

[Lee Johnson]

Hiro, I don't know whether you'd consider FFTA2 to be better or worse. You still learn abilities from equipment, but instead of the game handing items out (which it still does, as rewards for lawful fights), there is now a bazaar loot system. You turn in various materials ("loot"), obtained as dropped items and quest rewards, to the shopkeeper, who learns how to make new gear to sell you. The items are divided into a number of categories, so you can usually guess which will produce guns, robes, armour, greatswords, bows, etc. However, unless the item is one you've already seen, its identity and abilities will be unknown until you commit the loot items to the bazaar.

In the short term, this system gives *some* additional control over the item acquisition process (by letting you prioritise which type of items you get first), but with five different grades of items (A-E), I wonder how many of the 'gee whiz' abilities are going to be tied up in high-grade items that I don't have loot to make yet. Most of the loot I've seen so far, six hours in, is grade E stuff, with occasional rare items that might be as good as C. But for the purposes of unlocking jobs, it's the number of abilities that counts, not their power.

In addition, some jobs require completion of quests to unlock, in addition to having ability prereqs. I've unlocked three jobs in quests already, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are other job quests in the available quest list.

In passing, I agree that FFTA2 is an improvement over FFTA, but I still think that FFT has a better story, from what I've been able to see so far. Regardless, I'm enjoying it. The game is a tweaker's dream, for sure. :)

[Chuck Jordan]

This is a pretty big change from FFT, where there was no limit on what skill or class you could be at any time, except for the class pre-reqs, of course. But the game never said "You can't be a Dragon Knight until *I* say so."

As the other guys have said, job abilities are still item- and class-based. So, for instance, this sword will teach "Rend Power" to Warriors as long as they have it equipped. And so far, it looks like some jobs are locked until you find the character who'll teach it to you -- you rescue a dragoon, and then the Dragoon job becomes available.

But the end result for me is actually more interesting than it was in FFT. In the original, you could theoretically just go up the class tree whenever you wanted, but in practice it meant a lot of job-grinding. I'd have to start a random battle and have my main guy flinging potions around to people who didn't really need them, just to get the ability points for the Chemist level I needed to get to the class I really wanted.

In this one, since every character gains ability points for being in a battle, you don't have to think about grinding during the battle, just during the equip phase. And you get plenty of loot over the course of the game, so you can go back to the Bazaar and experiment with weapon-crafting. You don't know in advance which skill you're going to get, but you do get an idea of the class from the name -- "Stealth armor," so you know it's for thieves and ninjas, and "Flaming swords," so you know it's for warriors and red mages.

I am kind of stuck right now, because I want my main character to switch jobs to Paladin, but for that you need 3 Soldier abilities, and I'm still trying to find items that teach another soldier ability. But it's still kind of fun and feels like exploration, and when it becomes available I feel like I earned it instead of just unlocked it.

[Robert Sharp]

Hmmm..I'm surprised to hear this one is good. FFTA was awful, IMO, and I loved the original game. I'm still not big on the equipment giving skills thing though. Doesn't that become prety annoying?

I really like the idea of every character gaining APs for being in battle though. That could sell me on the game right there.

[Chuck Jordan]

I forgot this question:

The critical question I have: does it still have as little guidance in the use of its job system as the prior games? I've tried both previous Tactics titles and ended up tossing them aside because I hit a point (usually pretty early) where I had approximately eight billion wrong choices I could make with my cast of characters, maybe a hundred right choices, and no way to tell one from the other without trying it and failing horribly.

I guess it depends what you mean by "wrong choices." You start out with a well-balanced team, and as long as you keep one guy with the black mage abilities and one guy with warrior/soldier related abilities, you can experiment as much as you want with the jobs. I haven't run into any really punishing battles yet (like you do pretty early on in the original), but it hasn't seemed too easy, either -- I've had to keep the team fairly balanced, and not gone in with a whole team full of Beastmasters, for example.

[Xemu]

Totally digging this one as well, and I was turned off pretty quickly on FFTA. A2 solves my problems with FFTA and just puts the whole package together much more nicely. So far the story isn't really going anywhere, but the gameplay is quite nice.

[Kunikos]

Hmmm..I'm surprised to hear this one is good. FFTA was awful, IMO, and I loved the original game. I'm still not big on the equipment giving skills thing though. Doesn't that become prety annoying?

Yes, in fact there are several maps that dictate the "optimal" game progression of where you expand your clan influence to next because the ordering determines which free items you will receive. These items are critical because it determines how fast you can progress your clan characters into the uber jobs.

[Tortilla]

Yes, in fact there are several maps that dictate the "optimal" game progression of where you expand your clan influence to next because the ordering determines which free items you will receive. These items are critical because it determines how fast you can progress your clan characters into the uber jobs.

Wait, are you talking FFTA or FFTA2? I remember the annoying-as-shit map layout stuff in FFTA and I was hoping there wouldn't be anything similar in FFTA2.

[Funkula]

For me, while I hated the laws, they weren't my biggest stumbling block in the previous one. Two things that ruined the game for me were:

1. Each race had a limited selection of classes, so you couldn't mix and match every possible combination like in the original
2. Assassins were ludicrously broken, and once I got a second one I lost interest because the challenge was gone (maybe this changed later, but the story got so retarded that I sold it in disgust before finishing)

Have either/both of these issues been addressed?

[Alan Au]

Wait, are you talking FFTA or FFTA2? I remember the annoying-as-shit map layout stuff in FFTA and I was hoping there wouldn't be anything similar in FFTA2.

Ack! So yeah, I'm also curious whether or not this is part of the FFTA2 experience. I mean, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, but the completist part of me was annoyed with the idea that there were optimal and, er, "pessimal" ways to set up the map in FFTA.

The FFTA laws were no longer a problem for me after I hit a certain threshold and used a subset of skills almost exclusively (assassins, anyone?). That said, I'm glad that the law system is now set up mostly to provide bonuses, with only minor infraction penalties.

- Alan

[Gendal]

1. Each race had a limited selection of classes, so you couldn't mix and match every possible combination like in the original
2. Assassins were ludicrously broken, and once I got a second one I lost interest because the challenge was gone (maybe this changed later, but the story got so retarded that I sold it in disgust before finishing)

Have either/both of these issues been addressed?

1) No, it's still fairly restrictive.
2) Yes, balance was supposedly given a once over at least, with Assassins no longer being crazy powerful.

As far as story goes, I didn't think FFT was all that, mostly because of the godawful/humerous translation. Haven't tried the PSP version. FFTA was terrible, annoying, and infantile all wrapped into one little package, but FFTA2 is a marked improvement so far. It's not like I really care about the story, but some of the lines are surprisingly clever.

[Kevin Grey]

1) No, it's still fairly restrictive.
2) Yes, balance was supposedly given a once over at least, with Assassins no longer being crazy powerful.

As far as story goes, I didn't think FFT was all that, mostly because of the godawful/humerous translation. Haven't tried the PSP version. FFTA was terrible, annoying, and infantile all wrapped into one little package, but FFTA2 is a marked improvement so far. It's not like I really care about the story, but some of the lines are surprisingly clever.

The new localization in War of the Lions is honestly one of the finest I've ever seen. SE did a fantastic job with it.

[jfletch]

The new localization in War of the Lions is honestly one of the finest I've ever seen. SE did a fantastic job with it.

Seconded, its superb, but so are the other Ivalice games - FFXII and Vagrant Story.

I would get this for my new DS, but why is it $39.99? That's pretty damn expensive for a DS game.

[slantz]

I would get this for my new DS, but why is it $39.99? That's pretty damn expensive for a DS game.

I couldn't tell you the last SquareEnix game that wasn't $40.

But to be fair, they also have much larger development budgets than most of the other DS fare, and can keep you entertained for far longer as well.

1st-party casual fare like CrossworDS being $20 and SE's games being $40 makes sense to me. I know TWEWY was well worth the $40.

[metta]

This an encouraging thread to see. I'm distracted by DQM:Joker, at the moment, but FFTA2 is next on the pile.

[Funkula]

Oh hey, I just remembered one other change in FFTA that I hated. The cast times on spells were one of my favorite elements in the original, because they greatly affected strategy. Having spells fire off immediately removed an entire tactical dimension from the game. Do spells work more like the original or Advance in the new one?

[Kevin Grey]

Oh hey, I just remembered one other change in FFTA that I hated. The cast times on spells were one of my favorite elements in the original, because they greatly affected strategy. Having spells fire off immediately removed an entire tactical dimension from the game. Do spells work more like the original or Advance in the new one?

I'm still relatively early (~15-20 quests completed) but so far they're all instantaneous.

Agreed that delay times were an interesting tactic in FFT- whether it be spells, focus for archer shots, dragoon jumps, etc. It's a shame this mechanic isn't in FFTA2 since the second screen's use as turn order indicator would make the tactic more user friendly.

[chibibigos]

Ack! So yeah, I'm also curious whether or not this is part of the FFTA2 experience. I mean, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, but the completist part of me was annoyed with the idea that there were optimal and, er, "pessimal" ways to set up the map in FFTA.

You don't set up the map this time, but it IS divided into these zone things that your clan can gain influence in through a kind of weird auction-game thing. If you become the dominant clan in the zone through these auctions, you get special loot as prizes. You can also be challenged by the dominant clan of the zone if it isn't yours. (I think)

Also, spells are instantaneous, but the mp system is slightly different in that you start with 0 mp and generate mp each turn, although there are abilities that can get around that.

[malkav11]

Eesh. I wasn't super-fond of FFT's "grind jobs by using job abilities" system, but the only time I've ever liked the "learn abilities from gear" system wasn't in a Final Fantasy game (it sucked hard in FFIX. I haven't played much FFTA for multiple reasons, but its use of that system is one.) That exception being a fairly obscure PC action-RPG called Kult: Heretic Kingdoms (or Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition in the US, I assume because they wanted to kill their US sales dead.). As a way to build a skillset in a Diablo-like game with a single character, it was unexpectedly awesome. Particularly since there was no class system and spirit enemies would drop pickups that'd help you learn the abilities based on what you had equipped when you took the pickup...not what you had equipped when you killed 'em. (Using them also progressed it, of course.)

[Chuck Jordan]

Oh hey, I just remembered one other change in FFTA that I hated. The cast times on spells were one of my favorite elements in the original, because they greatly affected strategy. Having spells fire off immediately removed an entire tactical dimension from the game. Do spells work more like the original or Advance in the new one?

Yeah, so far every skill I've seen (including spells, jumps, "Focus", etc) works instantaneously. And so far, it's my biggest disappointment. As you say, some of the coolest moments in FFT were when you timed a spell just right -- you could cast a spell on a tile, move a melee guy in to draw a bunch of monsters into the area, and then move the melee guy out right at the last moment, and feel like a total bad-ass.

A minor plus, though: the top screen always shows the turn order of the battle, so it's easier and you're more encouraged to think about timing than it was in FFT. You can't do anything cool amazingly cool with it, but at least it's there.

Edit: Der. Kevin Grey already said all that.

[Jason Lutes]

My interest is certainly piqued, but I gotta say that I hate the ever-changing and illogical mechanics that JRPGs seem to introduce with every new game. I hated the law system in FFTA, but I especially hated that skills were attached to weapons and not the characters. It makes me feel less attached to the characters, and it just doesn't make any thematic sense.

[Gendal]

I especially hated that skills were attached to weapons and not the characters. It makes me feel less attached to the characters, and it just doesn't make any thematic sense.

At least in A2 it makes sense to me. You equip an item, earn enough job points to master it, then you can use it without the weapon/armour/whatever equipped.