Metal Gear Solid 4: Fry It

[madkevin]

They should have gotten Jim Jarmusch to do the cutscenes. Static camera, black & white, and Solid Snake voiced by John Lurie.

[Dean]

Getting back to MGS:

In any case, the omg-there-are-90-minutes-cutscenes sentiment as a reason for rejection because, you see, this is a GAME, simply doesn't click. The omg-there-are-90-minutes-cutscenes-which-I-mostly-hate one is valid, although entirely subjective, and thus can't be a basis for a review (the ones striving for objectivity, at least).

Whu... what?

I like my reviews subjective, thank you. There's no such thing as an objective review.

I don't understand why you disregard the idea that games shouldn't have feature film length cutscenes. It seems a perfectly valid criticism. At least tell me if I can pause the movie while it's playing should I have to take a piss. Also, maybe a warning upfront-- "This next cutscene is 90-minutes. Go pop some popcorn and come back and enjoy!" would be a good idea.

And if the game has a bunch of 90-minute cutscenes, then I'd like to know if the reviewer hates them or not, thank you.

[BDGE]

What other game franchise lets you disrupt the enemy forces food supply at its source, and then appease hungry patrols by tossing delicious looking poisonous scorpions in their direction as a palatable trap? Progression without ever directly entering a combat situation or using violence. It's crazy moments like these that make MGS so special in fans eyes.

Some do get attached to the narrative. I've become a convert based on the stealth shenanigans almost exclusively, a love affair which ultimately led to my -eventual- appreciation of it's equally estranged narrative outline. I'm one of the crazy fans, but I like to think it's for the right reasons. Essentially I'm right in line with Lizard_King, Matt, and Kevin's previous comments(particularly Lizard's brief appreciation of MGS2 via the VR missions and Extreme difficulty challenge...you and me both brother!)

[Scourge]

A camera moved in MGS4, and the cinematics are great? That sort of shit does not fly when considering even the most independent of movies coming out of small town USA. Why should it pass muster in MGS4?

My English is not that good and the long sentences probably tend to obscure the meaning, but, hey, I am pretty positive you should read the quoted text again because that bit was NOT about MGS4, but a part of the comparison with DMC4. Intended to give some quick basis in where this stands to people who haven't played the game but still read the topic.
See? Long sentences ftw.



@Dean:
Yes, you can pause.
And yes, I prefer subjective reviews. As a matter of fact, the best games magazine in my country lived for a decade entirely on strongly opinionated reviews. BUT, I don't look for them in the mainstream media.
The reply is directed towards the guys speaking about the mainstream coverage and the objective reviews.

[TurinTur]

What other game franchise lets you disrupt the enemy forces food supply at its source, and then appease hungry patrols by tossing delicious looking poisonous scorpions in their direction as a palatable trap? Progression without ever directly entering a combat situation or using violence. It's crazy moments like these that make MGS so special in fans eyes.

Every good stealth game ever done, perhaps. Also a good amount of "sandbox" games.

[unbongwah]

You surely didn't expect things to change the FOURTH time around? :)

That isn't always the case, though. Resident Evil 4 did a pretty good job of reinvigorating the franchise while sticking to its roots.

Granted, RE4 was like the 37th RE game by then, but still, it shows it can be done!

[BDGE]

Every good stealth game ever done, perhaps. Also a good amount of "sandbox" games.

Yes, but comparatively to my example, Thief and Splinter Cell essentially fall under the 'put out the light source and creep past the patrol route' form of design. Rarely is there a shakeup in that methodology. MGS offers that level of stealth play and much more.

There is a rather large barrier to entry though. Conditioning oneself to the control quirks, and motivating the player to push beyond constant frustration to cultivate the wacky cat-and-mouse antics the gadgets, tools, and environment can allow -is- a tall order.

[MikeOberly]

From what I recall of playing a little of MGS2, it was like getting a root canal. This one sounds like a root canal while getting repeatedly stabbed by an icepick. Fair warning, though, Tom -- once this review gets linked around by fanboys, you're going to have to change your number. May want to leave the country entirely for a few years until it blows over.

[BDGE]

From what I recall of playing a little of MGS2, it was like getting a root canal. This one sounds like a root canal while getting repeatedly stabbed by an icepick. Fair warning, though, Tom -- once this review gets linked around by fanboys, you're going to have to change your number. May want to leave the country entirely for a few years until it blows over.

No one hides from the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo!

[Kevin Grey]

(particularly Lizard's brief appreciation of MGS2 via the VR missions and Extreme difficulty challenge...you and me both brother!)

Yeah, that's the other thing about the series- the gameplay doesn't really come into it's own until you're playing on Hard or higher difficulty. On the default difficulty it's often easy enough to just tranq all of the guards and/or run past them. On normal difficulty, Kojima gives you this huge toolbox to play with but little incentive to use them them. On higher difficulty levels with conditions like No Alerts or No Radar you're forced to use the entire toolset and be relatively creative.

[MikeSolita]

Some do get attached to the narrative. I’ve become a convert based on the stealth shenanigans almost exclusively, a love affair which ultimately led to my -eventual- appreciation of it’s equally estranged narrative outline. I’m one of the crazy fans, but I like to think it’s for the right reasons.

I enjoyed MGS1 and MGS2 for the sheer spectacle of it all. The combat is wonky. The stealth gameplay can get tedious. The cutscenes are long and veer (especially in MGS2) into total comic book nonsense. But the fact is -- I played through and finished both of them. I can’t say that for most video games that go in and out of my living room. It’s refreshing to play something where the director’s vision is executed in its entirety, warts and all.

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed MGS3, which elevated its storytelling into more plausible terrain and for the first time in the series, I actually grew attached to the characters and got invested in the story. The gameplay/camera also took a step forward. I was enjoying combat a lot more, enjoying the goofy boss battles a lot more, and the storyline just builds and builds into one of the most memorable finales I’ve ever seen in a video game.

A few hours into MGS4, basically everything I loved about MGS3 is here and done better. I play a lot of FPS, a lot of RPGs, a lot of sports games, racing games, strategy games ... I love that Kojima can deliver a game that’s entirely its own type of experience. I’m not looking for Call of Duty 4 with a more complex storyline. I’m not looking for Uncharted with stealth camo. What’s fun about MGS is immersing yourself in this ridiculous, unique world and enjoying the meticulous craftsmanship that’s on parade.

It’s funny how people always say they wish there was more innovation in gaming, less retreading on recycled mechanics, and then completely trash game experiences that venture away from the standard. “If only it was more like every other game I play every month, then maybe I’d get into it ...”

[BDGE]

A few hours into MGS4, basically everything I loved about MGS3 is here and done better. I play a lot of FPS, a lot of RPGs, a lot of sports games, racing games, strategy games ... I love that Kojima can deliver a game that’s entirely its own type of experience. I’m not looking for Call of Duty 4 with a more complex storyline. I’m not looking for Uncharted with stealth camo. What’s fun about MGS is immersing yourself in this ridiculous, unique world and enjoying the meticulous craftsmanship that’s on parade.

It’s funny how people always say they wish there was more innovation in gaming, less retreading on recycled mechanics, and then completely trash game experiences that venture away from the standard. “If only it was more like every other game I play every month, then maybe I’d get into it ...”

Good point, especially about MGS being a spectacle, because really that -IS- afterall what the games are, pure spectacle. A dizzying array of high's and low's that tasks the player with an experience and identity all it's own. There is nothing to 'get', only how far you are willing to submit.

[thamer]

Wow. What games have you played that haven't rocked in the last decade?

Suddenly I have to justify enjoying the games I play to you? Seriously, I explained why MGS4 is so good. It does the "solve the fight in multiple ways" part very well and it's very "next-gen" compared to a lot of shooters. The interaction with enemy soldiers is just pure art.

[Charles]

Suddenly I have to justify enjoying the games I play to you? Seriously, I explained why MGS4 is so good. It does the "solve the fight in multiple ways" part very well and it's very "next-gen" compared to a lot of shooters. The interaction with enemy soldiers is just pure art.

Picking a different weapon doesn't count as 'solving in different ways'. It's shooting him or shooting him.

[WarrenM]

It does the "solve the fight in multiple ways" part very well

"Sniper rifle" or "RPG" doesn't qualify as "multiple ways" in anything other than the most basic of definitions.

[thamer]

Picking a different weapon doesn't count as 'solving in different ways'. It's shooting him or shooting him.

Are you on anti-depressants? Did you take yours this morning? Really, you need to chill out.

In a shooter using different weapons means things change a bit. Using an RPG meant I had to stay back a little. Hope that clarifies this. Try not to be so bitter when people like things you don't.

[Jason Cross]

In any case, the omg-there-are-90-minutes-cutscenes sentiment as a reason for rejection because, you see, this is a GAME, simply doesn't click. The omg-there-are-90-minutes-cutscenes-which-I-mostly-hate one is valid, although entirely subjective, and thus can't be a basis for a review (the ones striving for objectivity, at least).

Wait...what? Reviews of games and movies and such can only be subjective, for starters. Imagine if a movie review of Iron Man said "well it's 90 minutes of film. I can't really talk about whether I liked it or not, because that's a subjective measurement, not an objective one."

It's only possible, and appropriate, to have objective reviews of things whose worth can be directly measured. Hardware sites benchmarking CPUs or video cards or hard drives. Consumer Reports testing the suction of vacuum cleaners.

Explaining your subjective reasoning for whether or not you like the quality (or qualities) of a movie, book, tv show, video game, or album is the entire point of a review of it. No video game review should ever, ever, "strive for objectivity." It should only strive to make a clear argument for a subjective opinion.

I think Tom did that quite clearly. He didn't just say "well it's full of long cut-scenes and they suck." He explained in clear terms exactly why he feels they suck and gave specific examples.

[UncleSmoothie]

Suddenly I have to justify enjoying the games I play to you?

Yes you do, if you want to discuss them on an internet forum.

[thamer]

Every good stealth game ever done, perhaps. Also a good amount of "sandbox" games.

Name me a single game that lets you disrupt enemy food supplies and then lay down scorpions as traps for hungry soldiers.

I'll go teach a potato how to dance while you come up with an answer.

[WarrenM]

Name me a single game that lets you disrupt enemy food supplies and then lay down scorpions as traps for hungry soldiers.

Oblivion. Hide your enemies food, poison some apples with potions and leave them around for the enemies to eat.

How's that potato doing?

[The Bird Flu]

The hate for MGS entertains me more than the games do. I happen to love the series and I'm sick of rationalizing why... so I'm not going to.

What I will say is that MGO is the most fun I've had with a console MP shooter. It's a fast paced cross between CS and MGS with a persistent character complete with stats, clan support, online achievements, and servers you can join while a game is in progress. I can see myself playing it for a long, long time.

[WarrenM]

Honestly, I don't have a problem with people liking MGS. That's fine. Just don't try to sell me on choosing a sniper rifle or an RPG as some sort of awesome gaming decision.

[jeffd]

In fact, didn't you *have* to do something like that during the Dark Brotherhood missions?

[Hans Lauring]

Oblivion. Hide your enemies food, poison some apples with potions and leave them around for the enemies to eat.

How's that potato doing?

Doesn't count.
He clearly stated it had to be scorpions.



(Clever AI would be for soldiers not eating fucking scorpions - poisoned or not... or is the gems next gen enough to let you wait for a week while the troops gets hungry enough to really want a yummy scorpion?)

[WarrenM]

In fact, didn't you *have* to do something like that during the Dark Brotherhood missions?

It wasn't mandatory but it was an option. I killed them by sneaking around and making them eat arrows. Hey, a choice!

[Hans Lauring]

But did it have an RPG for you to "choose"?

[Charles]

Are you on anti-depressants? Did you take yours this morning? Really, you need to chill out.

In a shooter using different weapons means things change a bit. Using an RPG meant I had to stay back a little. Hope that clarifies this. Try not to be so bitter when people like things you don't.

So it only changes a bit? You only have to stay back a little?

So different! Maybe next time, when you fight the boss, you'll stand three steps to the left! Holy shit what will the experience be like then!?

And I'm not being bitter, I'm laughing at your simplistic view of gaming.

[Jazar]

That isn't always the case, though. Resident Evil 4 did a pretty good job of reinvigorating the franchise while sticking to its roots.

I loved RE4 and I agree that it reinvigorated the franchise but it did not stick to its roots. The game (and now series) changed from survival horror to straight up action.

I can't comment too much about MGS4 yet as I'm still only in Act 3, but I'm with MikeSolita. As a MGS fan, i can't really defend the batshit insane cutscenes, and as I've said in the other thread I wish there were two versions of the game: one for fans and one for new commers. Stripped from its storytelling however I find the gameplay to be great so far. It may take some effort to master, but that still shouldn't be an deterrent to those who are not diehard fans.

While the main point is getting from point A to point B, the tools that you are given at your disposal make it play out very open ended. You can pass a patrol route in a very large number of ways: Tap the walls to catch a guard's attention and move around the opposite way, leave a dirty magazine in the path to keep 'em occupied, hold 'em up at gunpoint surrendering their weapons, knock them out with a tranq dart or by choke hold, throw an empty gun clip across the way to cause a distraction, blend into the shadows and crawl your way across undetected, or shoot them in the head. I could go on. It's also a game that's about situational awareness. Learn the behavors and patterns of the enemy before proceeding. A welcome tactic considering the many run and gun games out now.

There's a lot of cool environments to take in and a lot of ways to interact with the environment and enemies. It's much improved over previous Metal Gear games too. Most know about the revised controls but I think a big welcome is the octocamo, which does away with the menu driven camaflauge system of MGS3 and gives you an immediate and very stylish way for you to hide form enemies. With other stealth games like Thief and Splinter Cell it's all about shadows, but here you have grass, rubble, boxes, cans, dumpsters, statues, etc.

Maybe they will release MGS4: SubSandwitch (credit to Wombat on CAG) with a huge emphasis on the core gameplay mechanics that will make people enjoy the game the way MGS2: Substance turned me into a big fan.

[Bahimiron]

If you want choice, play Pac Man. You can get the ghost from the left, the right, the bottom or even the top!

[ElGuapo]

Metal Gear fanboys are funny.

I'll tell you one thing. You could have put the entirety of The Godfather in The Godfather game and at some point I would have skipped it.

I play games to play games, not watch cutscenes. How DUMB putting in cutscenes over a few minutes long. That's why they are called "cutscenes" little breaks in the action setting up scene changes and confrontations.