Reply With QuoteIt's fun being bad. Everything else is icing on that cake. I prefer my icing flavored with a strong narrative.
My wife and I have been bouncing back and forth on a conversation as of late. She does not understand the appeal of Grand Theft Auto as a series, and quite honestly feels that she would "think less of me" if I purchased and played GTA IV because of the role-playing factor: why on earth would anyone want to roleplay as a criminal?
I attempted to relate this as a part of storytelling and extended into the enjoyment and giddiness that ensues when creating massive amounts of carnage, but she doesn't quite seem to get it.
Because I've had to think about it myself, I wanted to ask: what do you find about GTA that's so compelling? (Please mark spoilers if you post them.) The game doesn't allow you to complete the experience without performing morally reprehensible acts; is this an OK thing?
(This has led to some interesting conversation both at home and at work. I'm curious to see what you guys - and girls - have to say on this matter.)
It's fun being bad. Everything else is icing on that cake. I prefer my icing flavored with a strong narrative.
Yeah. Who doesn't love a good villain? Maybe we revile Iago more than we like him in Othello, but I think a big part of us still desperately wants to have (and employ) anywhere near as much cunning and sheer malice.
Well, I only played GTA1, 2 (a little) and 3. Didn't get very far into VC and didn't buy SA - both were seemed so much like the original I didn't think I'd get much more out of them. GTA3 is, until now, my favorite. I just loved the sense of scale. This was getting closer to the kind of virtual world I wanted to immerse myself in. The sense of humor (at the time) really hit me the right way. And, yup, the carnage. It was like being in a cartoon version of a Hollywood film. Talk about car chases? And shootouts, thefts, etc. on top of that? Heck, I was so under GTA3's spell I actually let myself enjoy the scripted missions - something that's not usually my cup of tea.
But a little, well alot, of that goes a long way. VC didn't do it for me and SA looked to be more of the same on steroids. GTAIV has so much new and different stuff it seemed possible it could recapture that old sense of wonder and show me some tricks I hadn't seen before. So far, so good - mostly.
That said, would I rather a game where I didn't have to be a crazy killer in a world full of unsympathetic assholes? Yeah. If it wedded a really exciting mechanic that doesn't get old fast, like the car chase in GTA, with a wide open world that lets me make my own choices rather than railroading me too hard down a scripted plot - like Oblivion. I wouldn't mind the option of playing someone who doesn't have to be utterly psychotic, sure. But I can get over it if there's enough action and immersion to carry me along despite myself - it's not hard to enjoy GTA IV at all for me even if it doesn't necessarily showcase the kind of characters or freedom to make meaningful (creating or influencing a plot as I go) decisions that I'd much prefer.
The "sandbox" aesthetic is what does it for me. Sure, you're fairly limited in what you can actually do, but it's the sense of freedom that I love. I hate being confined to an overly-linear path, so being able to actually see what's on the other side of the fence, at the end of the alley, under the bridge, really appeals to me.
Yes, I do have to go from point A to point B to accomplish task C in order to complete the game, but I have the option, and the right, to simply cruise the streets, take in the sights, and listen to the radio.
And, if I choose to, I can tear around at breakneck speed doing all manner of crazy stunts, with relative impunity. In reality, I try to stick pretty close to the speed limit, I always yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk, and I curse those who park in the fire lane; the Grand Theft Auto series lets me be the bad driver I won't otherwise allow myself to be.
I'm not "roleplaying" anything, I'm ramming around in pretend cars causing pretend explosions. As for why on earth would anyone want to engage in that sort of make-believe, well, it's called an imagination. Does your wife have one? Or does she use it for roleplaying Mother Theresa?
In a word: Exploration
Few other games has a huge real-world setting where I can roam around and look for things. Maybe there is a secret package up on the highest hill, over there... Or maybe a new, cool vehicle beneath that bridge... And how DO I get out to that island? And when I do, what will I find?
Along the way, maybe I can steal steal a vehicle or two, cause an explosion or three...
The very first thing I did in GTA:IV was go to the roller coaster to see if I could go for a ride.
-Mink-
Last edited by Mink Staccato; 04-30-2008 at 08:32 PM.
your wife's an idiot.
The sandbox feel is a big draw for me, being able to explore a new enviroment or setting is great. For GTA being able to do things that I wouldn't be able to do in real life (stealing cars, shooting rocket launchers at helicopters, etc) is a plus for me. Personality I'm still waiting for an open world sandbox game that lets me have more of an effect on my character and the world at large. I wrote a blog entry about this last week regarding what I want to see from the open world genre . http://chronicgamedesigner.blogspot....f-bronson.html
The other idea I really want to see is an open world super hero game that has interesting
gameplay when your in your alter ego.
The theme is incidental; like others have said, it's the gameplay systems and sense of freedom that elevates the series (and especially the other games that have improved on these aspects) above linear games. It could be a game about a unicorn that goes around shooting people with rainbows and driving around on clouds and it would be just as good.
I don't agree that the theme is completely incidental. Your unicorn game doesn't appeal to me.
Boys like to drive fast, shoot shit (with guns that make loud booming noises) and blow shit up. Most of us are hardwired for it. GTA lets us do it without actually hurting anyone. Win-win!
Hell, I just like driving around Liberty City and seeing the sights.
Did a mission earlier today and I ended up seeing the UFOs from Men in Black. Did they do anything? Naw. But it was neat.
I'll make sure to tell her that you said so.Originally Posted by rjcc
It's hard to find ways to talk to her about this subject that don't involve her getting frustrated with me. She very simply doesn't see the appeal of the violence and sexual content of a game like GTA and sees it as having no redeeming value whatsoever.
(Actually, more like negative value.)
OK, well, then why don't they come up with something that doesn't rely on violence? Would that game really be considered just as good?
This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking. She doesn't even understand why I am giddy with laughter when causing amazing wrecks in Burnout, so why should GTA make any sense to her, either?
I think it's part a gender difference and part the fact that she had never played a single video game until she met me in college (PS1/N64 era).
There's just so much to do. If the added a jet pack and let me cruise around like Superman, I'd be a very happy camper.
I, uh, don't. The controls frustrate the piss out of me, and I can't read the damn maps.
Its written into the male DNA. Look at any 5 year old boy. Regardless of whatever family they are from there games are very violent. Every stcik becomes a gun, everything they imagine themselves as is bug and destructive. Dinosaurs, Superheroes, Bulldozers.
I used to explain it as "Dinosaurs don't have bedtimes".
Specfically what I mean is that boy are all about their ability to effect the world. They want to "DO". The more effect, the better the play. And although building a tower of blocks may be fun, it takes a lot of time and effort., meaning very little effect per ounce of work. Knocking down a tower of blocks however is a huge rate of return for the effort, and therefor makes the boy feel very powerful.
Little boys have to do what they are told, they dont get to make many decisions, everyone is bigger and stronger than they are. But once that stick becomes and imaginary gun, once they become a dinosaur they can do whatever they want. Dinosaurs dont have bedtimes.
It isnt about morality, it isnt about glamorizing violence. Its all about being able to do whatever you want, being able to cause chaos at a whim, to change that virtual world for no other reason than you want to drive down sidewalks today.
So when your wife asks why you want to play a criminal, tell her that its because dinosaurs dont have bedtimes.
To me, the theme is incidental. The topic does specifically refer to me. With asterisks!
I used to think similarly. But then someone in a class I was attending loaned me their copy of GTA3, and it didn't take at all long to be hooked. For me, it's the sense of occupying a virtual world. I explore, I drive around listening to the radio, I shoot random people, I do missions, whatever. It's all part of the experience. I honestly don't think any one part of GTA gameplay is super-compelling in and of itself (although the missions are definitely my main focus), but the melding of the lot is something special. It's why even when a game comes along that maybe gets more of the game end of things, I don't enjoy it as much as I do GTA. (Saints Row, for example. The side missions are far better, there's a lot of incidental gameplay improvements, and the missions....eh, are all right, but the world does nothing to hook me and so it's not really competition for the juggernaut, in my book.)
Originally I wrote this post in response to theKevin saying in another thread that he felt bad for accidentally getting a pedestrian killed by the train. Once it was done, I realized it probably belonged here, even though there are more people here copping to delight in callous murder. Anyway:
I can't really be the only person here to admit to taking pleasure in wanton slaughter in these games. It seems like you guys are falling all over yourselves to feel the worst about accidentally killing people.
It's rare for me to steal a car without gunning down the driver. My favorite is stealing motorcycles, because when you shoot the rider in the face, they flip off the back of it. The way I began that mission where you have to take the subway for the first time was to see how many people I could push onto the tracks before the train got there. Then, when I was inside, I switched the view to the top of the back car, rotated the camera around, and watched the bodies rolling out from under the train as we got under way.
If you guys aren't taking pleasure in the glorious level of violence in this game, then I honestly don't see how you can be getting much out of it. Everybody loves blowing up a pile of cars in Crackdown and watching them fly around. Does it really cross a line for you guys when you go from that to shooting out the leg of an old man in the park, then splattering his head all over the grass with a shotgun? I see those as pretty similar, since they are both utterly meaningless in real life but let you wreck shit up real nice in a video game.
I'm also pretty much always an evil character in RPGs (I'm one of the people who's going to be pissed if you can't be branded a childkiller in Fallout 3, as it was basically the first thing I tried to do when I played the original game). You people who feel bad about throwing a molotov cocktail into crowd on the corner, then shooting the bodies while they writhe and burn, did you also hesitate to shoot women in the eyes with your Plasma rifle and watch them disintegrate?
edit: Oh, and for the record, I get absolutely nothing out of the sex stuff in these games and think it's a silly waste of resources. It fits in fine thematically, I guess, but I dislike minigames in general, and semi-mandatory social minigames in particular.
Last edited by JPR; 04-30-2008 at 10:34 PM. Reason: typos
It's fun, and pretty. I don't understand why people feel the need to justify every aspect of their life with a pile of meaningless bullshit.
Did you have to sit around and discuss with her the greater social good that is created when girlfriends and wives give blowjobs?
Ask your wife if she's ever watched The Godfather and found herself cheering for Michael.
This is a great topic; it's hard to explain to another person why I love GTA and play each iteration. I enjoyed Kael's explanation but it doesn't really work for me personally; I don't necessarily get joy out of the destruction of things. I think I enjoy for one, creating the criminal empire, which I think the GTA games handle spectacularly. I loved Vice City for allowing me to buy property and eventually a massive mansion with a rooftop helicopter and swimming pool. That's the kind of progression that keeps me coming back, as opposed to a new horned helmet for my orc priest.
But exploration is always a theme that pricks up my ears, I'm agreeing with Mink Staccato on that. I never get tired of seeing what's around the corner, what the developers may have hidden away that I can seek out.
But I'll add this one thing -- I can't bring myself to be purely evil in games. I dont' play the way JPR does and I can't tell you why but it's always been that way. I've never gone the Sith path in KoTOR though I kind of wish I had. Even going back to Doom; if the enemies had been swapped out for little old grannies in walkers I would not be able to pull the trigger, I'd just walk right by them looking for the blue key.
My wife has never seen The Godfather.
This is something I have been attempting to rectify for some time now.
I always play evil when it's not the gimp path in an RPG, and I do take a certain sadistic glee in some of the violent things I can do in these games (particularly shooting off body parts with the higher-powered rifles in earlier GTAs). But I get bored with random havoc pretty quickly, and I don't like *inadvertently* killing people. Like when you jack cars in Saints Row with the gun out and sometimes, completely without you causing it, your character caps them before tugging their corpse out. I'm more than happy to kill them if that's what I feel like doing, but I want to be prepared for it (and the police attention that it may draw, in this case).
FWIW, I always play the good guy in RPGs that have that choice. I don't have a bias towards playing evil dudes or anything. When I'm playing GTA4 and causing mayhem, it isn't about being evil, it is about OMG DID YOU SEE WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED? HOLY SHIT!!!!, which is different than being "evil".
Ask her if she likes to eat pussy. When she replies no, then say "Well, I don't see you complaining about our differences in preference then, do I?"
Your wife is the type of person that makes escapism attractive.
My wife picked up and paid for my copy of GTA IV. She definitely doesn't enjoy this type of game but she knows I do. She married me knowing about my lifestyle errr ummm hobby. She's cool with me playing it just not in front of the kids which I totally agree.
- open world simulation
- stuff blows up really good
- who doesn't like a good cop chase. Doesn't everybody fantasize about speeding off instead of pulling over when a cop pulls you over for speeding?
- I like good narratives.
- tech lust....I just love checking out new cutting edge engines and seeing what they can do with the hardware.
Yeah, my girlfriend isn't a gamer at all and she doesn't even like to watch me play violent videogames with realistic-ish renderings (though she likes watching me play Viva Pinata, etc), but she doesn't mind that I play and enjoy them.
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