Old man, creator of videogames, says "Get off my lawn."

[Charles]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...sary-says-baer

Long story short, all this technology is unnecessary, and games were perfectly fine 30 years ago.

You know, I detest people who say shit like this. Because they really are out of the loop. Either that, or they are completely lacking in foresight and vision. Which I guess, in his case, he used up 40 years ago.

But there are three things that this new level of technology enables that is absolutely necessary when it comes to the improvement of games, and what games can do.

1) Extremely complex scenes (due to graphics hardware). Lots of game objects on screen allow for new gameplay opportunities.

2) Extremely complex AI (due to CPU power). What some games are pushing nowadays has simply been impossible up until now. And whether it's a single AI that does more than previously possible, or many AI that interact in complex fashions, it allows for new gameplay opportunities.

3) World persistence (due to ram, harddrives). We've come a long way from scenes resetting because they were offscreen. And the more storage we have, the more the game can remember about the game state, which allows for new gameplay opportunities.


Anyway, I thought it might spawn an interesting discussion.

[Drastic]

Stories like this wouldn't happen if people would just report to Carousel like they're supposed to.

[mittens]

While I agree it's an excellent discussion point, I found it kind of interesting that towards the end of the article he's talking about patents in a fairly "I wish I had patented it, but I didn't, and it wouldn't have mattered anyway" manner.

[Sol Invictus]

This is yet more proof that most old people shouldn't be left to their own devices.

[Charles]

So, full interview is here: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...t-2-ralph-baer

Entertainingly enough, the interview comes pre-Godwin'd.

Here are some other choice quotes:

Do we really need all of that technology? Short answer - no.

And I think it appeals to old-timers who can't manage the...Who the hell - who didn't grow up with that stuff - over 45 or 50 can handle pushing 50 different buttons on a hand control? The answer is no one, right? Or very few, so there is a whole pile of people left out of the equation.

I don't play games

[Reldan]

Well, the current console tech is unnecessary to play games that appeal to him, and apparently everyone else who is his age or older. I guess once you turn 45 your brain just can't handle these things anymore.

I suppose people should lose their pilot's license at 45 - those plane controls have an awful lot of buttons and jiggers and crap to pay attention to. Way too much to handle at that age - it's a goddamn information overload!

He definitely puts a lot of stock in thinking that his personal experience has some universal relevance.

[Jason Lutes]

Stories like this wouldn't happen if people would just report to Carousel like they're supposed to.

ha ha

[Drastic]

To be fair, thirty years from now, some current-day developers will give cranky interviews about not seeing the point of all these direct wireless neural effector induction games. Because who the hell, who didn't grow up with direct brain interface, can handle that kind of thing? No one, that's who! No...oh God, what is that thing in the cornfield?

[nutsak]

I'm with you on this one Charles but remember, this is just some guy remembering it "how it was". I'm for an advancement in technology to make games more involving and allowing the players to really get into the game that they're playing so long as it doesn't turn a bunch of people into dribbling retards. ( insert counter strike/WoW joke here )

I kind of like how he doesn't like violence but was the guy that invented the gun shaped peripheral.

"Two-thirds of [my patents] wound up in some production item and made money, but very few of them wound up in my bank account," he noted.

Ooooh I see. Maybe he should have had a snickers and found a better lawyer.

[The Other Guy]

I was gonna make a comment about how he'd probably like the Nintendo Wii, but I see from reading the article that he did it for me.

The more time passes, the more in awe I am of Nintendo's understanding of the casual gamer market. Super Mario Colonoscopy FTW!

[Gordon Cameron]

You know, I detest people who say shit like this.

You may disagree with Ralph Baer, but "detesting" him seems a bit strong, considering he is one of the fathers of this hobby that we all enjoy, and by which you earn your living.

People often morph into get-off-my-lawn mode when they get older. I don't know why that is; maybe I will when I am his age. I already feel pretty cranky and contrarian and I am only 33.

[Neopythia]

Putting his own motivations aside, there certainly is a point to be made here. The bottom line is that games have to be fun to play and super high polygon counts and realistic physics engines don't necessarily make a game fun. It seems too many developers get obsessed with graphics or realistic boob physics and forget about the game itself.

The best games are the ones that blend immersive, fun gameplay, with current technology. I think Portal would be an ideal example of this.

[nutsak]

Baer says that the technology isn't necessary for the gameplay

I want to see Portal on an Atari 2600 or a C64.

[ProStyle]

The current level of game console technology is not really necessary

Games and the hardware to run and display them are inherently unnecessary, so the argument is a failure from the outset. If you're going to be a reactive luddite, rail about automatic transmissions or cell phones or television for christs sake, not what has and will always be the epitome of pointless leisure activity. "Back in my day, we didn't need x or y, uphill in the snow both ways, etc" - guess what, nobody ever needed video games, so the relative standards within that system are even more pointless to debase.

Anyway, his claim to fame is "Simon"? Really?

I rest my case:

[SirBruce]

Anyway, his claim to fame is "Simon"? Really?

Er, his main claim to fame is a little thing known as the "Brown Box", which was licensed to become the Magnavox Odyssey, the world's first video game console. He also created the first light gun for video game use.

I rest my case:

Yeah, 'cuz you know, anyone honored by a President you don't like is automatically a douche.

Bruce

[cliffski]

I think a more relevant point is I'd rather there were 10 teams of 20 people making 10 low budget innovative games, where 1 of them may appeal to me, than just 200 people making yet another WoW clone, but this time THE POLY COUNT IS HIGHER.

Most people my age who I remember having a ZX spectrum no longer play any games at all. You can't ignore the fact that a lot of the instant pick up fun factor of early games has been forgotten in an increasingly inward looking attempt to play graphics engine one-upmanship.
I cant tell the difference between PS3 graphics, XBox graphics and XBox 360 graphics. And I'm a fucking game dev FFs.

[rjcc]

I cant tell the difference between PS3 graphics, XBox graphics and XBox 360 graphics. And I'm a fucking game dev FFs.

this is not true.

[Fugitive]

You could separate the argument into one about fundamental gameplay and one about technology. When it comes to gameplay, it is still often true that the best games are ones that are easy to learn but difficult to master, and some games have abandoned that and become overly complex right from the start. I still like having that complexity in some cases though, so I wouldn't say it's inherently a bad thing, and it's just a matter of the publishers finding the right balance between the two. Some games just aren't for you.

As for technology, well, I find it difficult to complain there. Technology is awesome. It just hasn't near-plateaued yet, like most other forms of entertainment.

[AndrewM]

I thought this thread was going to be about Chris Crawford.

[slantz]

Most people my age who I remember having a ZX spectrum no longer play any games at all. You can't ignore the fact that a lot of the instant pick up fun factor of early games has been forgotten in an increasingly inward looking attempt to play graphics engine one-upmanship.
I cant tell the difference between PS3 graphics, XBox graphics and XBox 360 graphics. And I'm a fucking game dev FFs.

I love ya cliffski, but you're falling into hyperbole territory here.

It's easy to point to Madden or Call of Duty and say "See, these are too hard!" But then I'd point to Katamari Damacy or Pac-Man C.E. or Peggle or any of a huge number of other games that don't rely on a million buttons, and can appeal to almost anyone.

I think it's just that games aren't forced to be simple now, and they can represent a much broader range of complexity and mechanics. Simple games are still here en mass, and in most cases, they are better off with the increased technology we have today.

And yes, there's also plenty of crap out there, but that's always been the case. Games weren't somehow magically better because you had 4-way digital controls and 1 button. Like today, most games released in that era were crap too.

And if you can't tell the difference between xbox and xbox 360 graphics, you're not even remotely trying. There's a huge difference.

[Jazar]

To be fair, thirty years from now, some current-day developers will give cranky interviews about not seeing the point of all these direct wireless neural effector induction games. Because who the hell, who didn't grow up with direct brain interface, can handle that kind of thing? No one, that's who! No...oh God, what is that thing in the cornfield?

I hope that I will always look to new avenues of gaming & technology with an open and eager mind. The porn alone boggles the mind!

Just as long as the robot children stay off my nanolawn.

[Dean]

I've been to Ralph's, some of my kids interviewed him for an ongoing "Oral History of Videogames" project that I'm doing.

Yes, Ralph can be cranky. He is also still actively involved in making electronic toys. While we were there the UPS guy arrived with one of those "10 games in an old Atari controller" cheap deals. He then showed us how he was going to hook it up to an exercise bicycle so you could play Pole Position by riding your bike.

He had five prototypes at the New York Toy Show that year. He told us about a couple, but wouldn't tell us about the most promising one because "it might actually go."

He's got an active electronics workshop in his basement in NH and another one in his house in FL because he'd rather be in his basement tinkering than anywhere else.

He gets interviewed a lot, he gets asked a lot of dumb questions over and over, and he gets tired, so his answers get short tempered. Give the guy a break, he's in his 80's.

[Rob_Merritt]

He gets interviewed a lot, he gets asked a lot of dumb questions over and over, and he gets tired, so his answers get short tempered. Give the guy a break, he's in his 80's.

Plus he invented the hobby. That gives him a huge bit of leeway. Plus i don't think what he says is entirely wrong. I long for simpler controls, and scaled back graphics for better game play at times.

[steve]

I want to see Portal on an Atari 2600 or a C64.

How about this?

[davidf]

I can kind of relate, and I guess I'm getting old as well. It relates to this thread...so I'm going to hijack the thread for a sec to vent!

I find myself yearning for the games of old more and more now. I find myself increasingly loading up old classics rather than caring about the upcoming releases.


Example: Just started to replay Microprose's 2000 release of Starship Troopers. I didnt finish it the first time and quit largely in frustration becuase the game didn't *gasp* allow you to pause and issue orders AND no mid mission saves!!! I just felt at the time there was too many games to waste my time with a game those fundemental features missing.

However, after a extended dearth of the games in this marget segment that i really enjoy (how many years since we've seen anything of note here?)...namely squad based games, that includes optional layers of management like troops with unqiue stats, expierence and rank, diffirent specialties, asigning equipments, weapons, badges, buying equipment upgrades, all things that add to the feel of having another layer of direct control over your sqaud in combat. A game that doesn't rely on overly puzzle machanics to create a challange, but instead relies on strategic thinking and a few suprises to create challange.

I must be getting old, because I'm annoyed with publishers are so focused on following each others copy exact mold that they ignore the chance to cater to variety of audiences with diverse titles. I know the market goes in cycles, but when they go year after year following the latest fad trend, while some market segments completly ignored for years till they come back into fashion is very VERY annoying as a gamer!

I suppose its possible that my tastes in games, and that of the general gaming markets has seperated, complex layered games requiring strategic thinking and open ended play do require lots of work to make and with action titles just sell like crazy right now, why bother right? I'm heartned that places like bearput exist though, raises my hopes I'm not alone in wanting something a little more meaty from my game, rather than how many pixels the games got, how great the art direction is, or how immersive and realistic the game is to look at/wander around.


I'm actually enjoying player Starship Troopers this time around, lots of things i didnt appreciate last time I notice now. I was really suprised this 2000 release supported 1280 by 1024 32bit. Looks a little blocky, but still very playable for a game designed for Windows 98!

The game has all the features I like in a game like this, managing your squad before the fight with all the pre mission prep, it's also well enough designed that this management is largely optional... you can just dive in and do the missons if thats not your thing! I'm well over half way into the campaign and no annoying puzzle missions that can be solved in ONE way the designers decide, I can tackle the mission anyway I like with the resources I have!

The game even has its own little touches that add to it, like the bugs spotting you and instead of just rushing into your gun fire, one heads to the nearest bughole to bring back reinforcements. If i haven't already found the bug hole I can use this to track the bughole locations. I also notice that if the nearest bughole is aways away, the bugs do a pony express thing where they notify the next closest patrol and then one of that patrol goes back to the whole, while the new bugs joins and the remaining portion of the 2nd patrol to attack you.

I also get a kick out of when I've already blow the hole and the bugs run back sitting there for a minute trying to process it. I also love the small touches like in the first mission has a constant stream of drop ships flying over head.

Starship Troopers when it came out got a pretty low score on average because it was missing a few critical features (mid game save and pause and issue orders, and no multiplayer) and because the interface is somewhat clunky you sometimes have to fight it, and the AI can be uneven. However, the multi year drought for games of this type has me giving it a second look and now actually enjoying it, despite that I would pass on it if the market still had ANY offerings in this front!

/Vent done, back to your regularly scheduled dig on old men :)

[cliffski]

And if you can't tell the difference between xbox and xbox 360 graphics, you're not even remotely trying. There's a huge difference.

No I'm not remotely trying. That's the point. Neither are the 95% of people who don't care.

[cliffski]

this is not true.

I stated something about my personal perception. what next? you going to tell me that in fact I DO like boiled eggs?

[MarinusWA]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...sary-says-baer
2) Extremely complex AI (due to CPU power). What some games are pushing nowadays has simply been impossible up until now. And whether it's a single AI that does more than previously possible, or many AI that interact in complex fashions, it allows for new gameplay opportunities.

Now if they could just fix the other bottleneck regarding AI.

[Aeon221]

I hope that I will always look to new avenues of gaming & technology with an open and eager mind. The porn alone boggles the mind!

Just as long as the robot children stay off my nanolawn.

If you don't let them on your lawn, how can they have any orgies?!

[rjcc]

I stated something about my personal perception. what next? you going to tell me that in fact I DO like boiled eggs?

I think you're lying. Saying you can't tell the difference between Xbox and Xbox360/PS3 graphics, despite being a professional game designer (allegedly), is so incredible that I don't believe you. Unless you're also a blind game designer, which would explain some things.