I've been playing Avernum 5 this week and liking it so far (enough to purchase it once I hit the demo wall). I played a couple of Vogel's really early Exile games and liked them but never finished them. His newer games have better interfaces and I am better at finishing them now. It helps that his story-telling and quest-designing skills have gotten better too. I know he steals ideas from a lot of classic RPGs but I don't mind -- The Spiderweb games scratch my RPG itch nicely (and play on my crotchety old rig).
Thanks for the heads up. I haven't played one of these since he was about the extent of options available for Mac rpgs. You know, back in the day, when the TSR gold box port got me started on the habit and then left me hanging.
I'd be curious to hear a few specific comments about the game, perhaps some comparisons to other games. But I'm dling regardless and we'll see how it turns out.
I've been playing the demo for Eschalon: Book I. It's pretty decent - nice graphics for an indie RPG, good combat, story seems good so far. I'm not crazy about the Diablo-style movement, though. The website makes a big deal about this being "not another action-RPG," but it uses the same hold-to-click-move system that Diablo and it's clones are known for. Get some pathfinding!
I'm going to try out the Avernum 5 demo. I've never played a Spiderweb Software game - which is considered the best?
I think they get progressively better, as Elton has pointed out. Avernum 5 is probably the best, and it's standalone, but if you want to get a broader sense of the scope and history of the setting, you might want to start with Avernum 1.Originally Posted by tromik
My favorite things about the Avernum games are that they're party-based -- which allows for meaningful tactical decisionmaking -- and that they allow for some fairly nonlinear adventuring. There are usually lots of side quests and secondary sites to explore. Another fun aspect is that most dungeons or caves or whatever have logical layouts. They remind me of a lot of the best D&D modules in that way.
Which is the best? I don't know too many people would agree. I really like the Geneforge series - more decisions, factions and less combat...but the parties in Avernum are nice, too. The interface improvements in newer versions really are worth having so while my favourite is probably Geneforge 1 or Nethergate, GF4 or AV5 are good places for someone new to start.
Since most of the graphics and systems are recycled, I doubt too many new players can go through from the beginning of each series, so you might as well start with the current ones. The backstory is easy to pick up.
I'm probably one of the few weirdos that actually liked the Exile series the best.
I might do. I haven't really played Avernum much but my impression was that while I'd appreciate the improvements in the dialogue system and some of the other fiddlier interface bits (and of course the new content), the wholesale stripping of entire classes of spells (summoning key among them) and loss of two characters from the party would offset that more than a bit.
I think as a starter I'd either recommend Geneforge (which is the only Spiderweb game I've played to completion) or Nethergate: Resurrection. If Avernum 1 hasn't added a whole ton of additional stuff over Exile, and I don't think it has, it'd be a bit directionless and low on story to make the best first impression. Geneforge has some annoying interface quirks, but great story and gameplay with meaningful choices, plus summoning. And I really don't think you want to start later in the series because of continuing story elements, for both series. Which is why I'd recommend Nethergate: Resurrection as the other option. It has systems that are fairly similar to Avernum, benefits from ~8-10 games worth of UI design experience and the most modern code aside from Avernum 5 (so 1024x768 support, unlike a lot of the older games, among other things). And it's entirely standalone. It's a remake of Nethergate, not a sequel.
On the other hand, it may not be the best move to start with the newest interface and code because it'd be harder to go back to the annoyances of the earlier games afterwards.
Is there a way to tell how far you and the enemy can move in combat in Geneforge? I played the demo of the first one a year ago, but was put off because moving in combat seemed to incredibly random, I could never know whether I would make that cover, or escape that enemy, so I rarely had a choice to do more than shoot shit.
The quests on the other hand looked like they'd open some real options for me :)
I personally thought it was a waste. It gave you turn-based combat without any reason for the combat to be turn-based. A pause on opening the spell book, or having a pause key would have achieved the same thing, and alleviated the tedious travel mechanisms. I love me turn-based, but if you're going to slow things down you better damn well be adding some depth, or tactics, or something... ANYTHING!
Still no walking animation for the party members? Jeez. It may be a minor quibble, but I kind of expected Avernum to adopt the animations of the Geneforge stories.
I'll check it out though; I love supporting Spiderweb Software for keeping 2D rpg's alive.
I totally agree with this. I bought Eschalon on day one with high hopes, but quickly tired of it for those reasons, plus the fact that the game world just felt blah.
Avernum 2 is one of my favorite RPGs of all time -- not sure if it is better than the other Avernums (Averna?); it's just the one I encountered first and played to completion.
I really liked some of the writing in Geneforge 1, but I think I got stuck in a dungeon somewhere and lost the momentum and never completed.
I didn't get far enough to first more than enemy, but I kinda liked it. The gameworld is a bit dull, though, and I totally agree about the movement.
Started playing the Avernum 5 demo last night - really liked it, and didn't at all mind the lack of movement animation.
Edit: Anyone know if the game can be played in a window?
Last edited by tromik; 03-15-2008 at 10:25 AM.
Fantastic series! And this will be the first version I get to run on a Mac. :)
Exile 3 is one of my all time favorite RPGs, warts and all. I even bought Geneforge, but I dunno. Great concept, but something about the gameplay just turns me off. I can't put my finger on it.
I have to admit, with today's RPGs being so piss poor, I'm very tempted to try out Avernum 1 and relive the glory again.
I used to love the Exile series back when I used a mac, but I stopped playing them before he ever redid them in Avernum. Started playing the demo when it came out and loved it, probably played around 40+ hours so far and it feels like I am not even halfway done. Taking a break for now but I am sure when I get some extra time I will be back.
Exile had a lot of potential. Great character system. But the UI is far better in the newer games. Personally, the Geneforge series is my favorite, with 2 being the one I had the most fun with (never played past the demo portion of the most recent one, though).
The site says that one of the Exile games is open source. Does anyone know if everyone ever did anything with it?
Single player CRPGs (that is, where you just play one dude or dudette) are hard to do IMO. Geneforge of course offers some limited party creation, but it's still kind of a "solo" RPG where you deploy fodder as needed.
Avernum 1 doesn't have a quest journal, that didn't appear in the engine until Avernum 2. Be aware. Exile is my favorite of the Exile series simply because it was the first one I played through in it's entirety, but I thought Exile II was the best game overall (III was great though). There are more significant mechanics changes from Avernums 1 - 3, but I liked them all and they were just different enough to feel fresh. Exile III is one of the hardest CRPGs I've played I think; Avernum 3 wasn't quite as tough relatively speakign.
I liked Avernum 4 but it too marks a somewhat new direction, and there were things about it people didn't like. The new engine is more Ultima 6 like - no more load screens and icons that signify town entry point and such, just continuous game world. I really like 5, and think it's superior to 4 in just about every aspect. Getting around ins't obnoxious, thanks to a combination of teleportation mechanism and just general scale/player speed.
YEah, the UI is definately improved, but it takes an even more significant leap forward in Avernum 4 (if you haven't played it or 5). And Avernum 5 has the superior mechanics when it comes to carry weight (non existant) and equip weight (based on strength), as well as how action points work in combat. It was the same stuff Vogel did with Geneforge 4, which I really liked. I thought it was superior to 3 (which was starting to feel a little too samish for my tastes), and the small mechanics changes went a very long way.
Ditto, seconded. While I, too, was looking forward to it, luckily, I got tired of it before the demo finished. FInished the demo and had seen all I needed and skipped it. It did make me go in search of something similar and while I had tried an earlier Avernum and it never stuck with me, Avernum 4 was great. At least after playing Eshaclon for a couple days.
FWIW, I enjoyed Eschalon and look forward to the developer's follow-up title. It's hard enough to find a decent indie CRPG let alone someone willing to actually develop one. I hope Basilisk continues and I feel pretty confident that the next title will improve upon the original.
Back OT: For anybody knew to Avernum, I think it would be a crime to skip 1 and 2. Too much great back story to miss out on, IMHO. A2 was just brilliant.
Geneforge never appealed to me for some reason...
Geneforge does have certain incredibly irritating gameplay elements, like the way equipment and AP play out (especially aggravated by your PC being the only character with an inventory). But it's worth getting past that and digging into it.
There were some threads about stuff being done with it in the forums. I haven't been back to the forums in months, so I don't know if those ever actually released anything useful.
I think Blades of Exile actually allows you to create your own modules and such. I'm pretty sure that game had some people create modules, but they weren't really mods as such, AFAIK.
Played this for like 5 hours today (Not out of the demo area yet!). Addictive, definitely, and I think I'll try to keep at it. The interface is very decent and the graphics utilitarian but not ugly. I think I'll keep it.
Same here. I keep expecting to hit the demo wall but it keeps going.
One thing I don't like, particularly since I've been playing IWD2 lately, is not being able to tell from looking what I can pick up. Wandering around just to see if something shows up when I pull up the inventory screen gets old fast.
Or maybe I'm missing something?
I've gotten the hang of a lot of things that look like crap (and are), and usually tapping G anywhere within a square of them and then ESCing out of it quickly gets me through it. I don't really get the point of all of the useless nonsaleable stuff, but it's only a minor annoyance so far.
I've got a pretty generic party (soldier, cat scout, priest, sorcerer) but I'm enjoying fleshing them out and seeing the consequences of different traits and the like. Ranged weapons are huge thus far, I'm sure I'll get the hang of ranges and the like, but for now I just spam the arrows until they are within hitting distance.
My magic users are very useful, but I have a tough time paying attention to immunities and the like. With some of the earlier guys having everyone concentrate on the hardest enemy was the way to go, but with the (slightly) later ones I found focusing the fighters on the main bad guy and using the magic users to clean up the trash efficiently worked best.
Buffs are, as the hint promises, really powerful. I do wish the spell/ability levels were more transparent as I don't find the stat info all that informative, but it's nothing that a few thousand more hours won't fix.
So, what's the appeal of Avernum Vs. Geneforge? I was rather enjoying the Geneforge demo, until I hit combat, and I just felt like the game wasn't giving me all the information I needed... like how far I could move with how many AP would be left. The Avernum demo is just plain intimidating owing to party choice :)
AP is pretty clearly marked and used in A5, so it sounds like they heard your complaints. As far as party choice, I think so long as you keep a basic RPG balance and not go too crazy with the traits and disadvantages you should be just fine. I haven't run into any "fuuuuuuck" moments yet because of party choice, but I have had a number of close calls due to the fact that a much more challenging version of a creature uses the same sprite as cannon fodder.
I don't yet know how to get info on an enemy other than visually and by seeing them do an action, which can often be too late.
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