Venting my frustrations with PC game-dev

[Rob_Merritt]

After reading through 15 pages of this thread my brain has glazed over.

PC developers over the past year are all screaming that the platform is nothing but a den pirates and they are leaving to go to the consoles. That seems like an odd reaction since its easier to pirate games on the consoles, or at least to avoid buying new games via used games store or just trading amoung friends. Everyone one of my pc gaming friends have bought their own copies of Bioshock yet the two dozen 360 owners I know at work have all swapped a single copy of Bioshock. That isn't even talking about renting. The sales might be bigger but the number of people playing games they didn't pay the developers for is also far greater. It seems to me that pc developers and publishers are looking at the massive sales on the console side and are emotionally distancing themselves from the pc in order to make the jump without any real logic. I don't see genre's popular on the pc making a dent on consoles.

Is there anything the consumer can do to help the situation? Would it be better to buy off steam or EALoader instead of Gogamer or Target? Does aa purchase from one place rank higher than another? I like the PC and want it to contnue as a gaming platform. I don't copy games. In fact I don't even trade or get used games PC anymore. I don't know anyone personally who pirates pc games. I know a few who buy high end systems every 2 years and yet the only game they play is either CS or WoW but thats the worst habit.

[Mark Crump]

Rob raises a good point.

Now, I'm not at ALL advocating that torrenting is acceptable, but...

Someone buys a copy of the game, allegedly, cracks the protection and torrents it. No one but piratebay sees any money from it due to their ad sales.

Someone buys a copy of the game, plays it, sells it to Gamestop (most likely, though, they just traded it in for credit), who then resells the game with them keeping all the money. If you bring the used game back in, the cycle continues.

Now, if you asked someone they would say their Gamestop copy is "legal." My question to developers is: do you consider this copy to be "legal?" My guess is, yes, since it's in its original packaging.

[Jim Hoffman]

Amen! As far as I know, the USA is not a communist country.. yet.

The idea that people like me should work hard to create a product so people like you can take it without paying sounds like something from the mind of some drug addled hippy who hasn't left moms basement and had to get a job.

If you want to consume entertainment for free, go make your own, or enjoy the public domain stuff.
Nothing makes YOU entitled to the fruits of MY labour. You accept that idea if I am a sculptor or a carpenter. why is it different if I'm a software developer?

[steve]

Someone buys a copy of the game, allegedly, cracks the protection and torrents it. No one but piratebay sees any money from it due to their ad sales.

In most cases, no one's ever purchased the game. It ends up in the wild from duplicators, press copies, etc.

Someone buys a copy of the game, plays it, sells it to Gamestop (most likely, though, they just traded it in for credit), who then resells the game with them keeping all the money. If you bring the used game back in, the cycle continues.

One thing about rentals and used games is that you're at the mercy of a finite supply, at least in the short term. If Gamestop or GameFly doesn't have a significant number of used or rental copies---which it typically doesn't for games for at least a couple of weeks---people will have to purchase the full price edition. (And when the difference is only $5, I typically buy the "new" one anyway.)

Now, if you asked someone they would say their Gamestop copy is "legal." My question to developers is: do you consider this copy to be "legal?" My guess is, yes, since it's in its original packaging.

The Gamestop copy is legal, but developers and publishers aren't exactly thrilled that Gamestop doesn't share any of that revenue despite requiring you to throw all sorts of cash at them for promotion of new titles... which they'd rather not sell because they make more money off used ones.

[Jim Hoffman]

<tangent>
As far as I'm concerned, any right/wrong issue comes down to this.. do you believe in moral absolutes, or moral relativity?
With the latter, anyone's actions can be rational in their own eyes, and you can argue all you want, but what's the point? In my experience it's petty rare that I'm going to change the viewpoint of a moral relativist re: convincing them that they've done something immoral. They'll just rationalize and justify their actions all day long.
Secondly, it's hard to point out any kind of failure, say a moral failure, to someone with low self esteem. A person will low self esteem cannot help but feel like they themselves are a failure if they fail at something. Hence they spend enormous amounts of energy defending themselves. A confident person will see a learning opportunity in failure and move on. I've found that it's much easier for a confident person to be humble as well, gracefully accepting criticism and learning from it.
</tangent>

[steve]

The analogy isn't valid for reasons only an idiot would need to have spelled out.

Sure, but you're the one bringing physical goods and their return policies into a discussion about something that people always point out isn't a real physical good. People can't have it both ways in these kinds of discussions.

A demo of the first area in Lionheart wouldn't have shown that that was the only good part of the game.

What you're saying is that you want absolutes. You want to be able to play a game in its entirety in order to determine if it's worth your purchase. That's just goofy, and there's nothing anyone could to to satisfy your requirements.

How many Usenet threads were there about "how long are gamers going to put up with this?" Well, now you have my answer, and it isn't my problem that you don't like it.

Yes, we were all 12-years old once. Some people grew up and became less retarded, others... not so much.

[steve]

Everyone one of my pc gaming friends have bought their own copies of Bioshock yet the two dozen 360 owners I know at work have all swapped a single copy of Bioshock.

You'll probably see fewer Bioshocks in the future on consoles too as almost all of their games focus more and more on multiplayer. Those guys won't be swapping a game if they want to play it together online.

Is there anything the consumer can do to help the situation? Would it be better to buy off steam or EALoader instead of Gogamer or Target? Does aa purchase from one place rank higher than another?

Not really, though if you want EA to get more of your money buying from EALoader is probably the thing to do. Digital distribution, in general, benefits everyone more than retail.

[AndrewM]

<tangent>
As far as I'm concerned, any right/wrong issue comes down to this.. do you believe in moral absolutes, or moral relativity?</tangent>

I don't think this is really a matter of moral relativism. Some people believe they have an absolute right to game demos. Moral relativism isn't just a euphemism for "the beliefs of people with looser morals than me".

[rlsuth]

Well, I'm one of the, I guess, very few people that bought TQ and the expansion. Boy, do I feel foolish (just kidding).

Here's something I want to say directly to Michael, and any other game producers reading this: I'd put up with strict copy protection, including my hated online activation, if I knew that a patch would be released to remove the copy protection after the game had hit bargain bin status. Unfortunately, game producers etc never commit to doing this and I still have copies of games, from some years ago, lying around that I can no longer play because of this type of cp.

I really enjoy playing old games, especially strategy type ones, and I made the decision long ago to never buy games with restrictive cp in them that will stop me playing the games, if I want to, years down the road. Make that one change to how you do business, and you can put the most restrictive form of Starforce around your games and I'll still buy them.

[steve]

Unfortunately, game producers etc never commit to doing this and I still have copies of games, from some years ago, lying around that I can no longer play because of this type of cp.

Really? Which games?

[Mike O'Malley]

Wow, rlsuth broke a 3.5 year lurk for that post.

[rlsuth]

Wow, rlsuth broke a 3.5 year lurk for that post.

hahahaha sorry, I wont speak again for another 3.5 years! :)

[Aeon221]

I've never managed a vB forum, so I don't know if this is applicable, but other types allow you to create titles for a specific group of users by defining a new group (similar to making an admin group, but without the rights) and dumping them into it, and then just adding the title.

I'd personally call it either The Six Hour Men or ts;dp.

[rlsuth]

Really? Which games?

Well, I have several chess games that used a token system for copy protection (M-Chess Pro/Hiarcs/Chess Genius etc). You only got a certain number of tokens and had to copy them back off your hard drive to reinstall. Needless to say, after a hard drive crash, or if you just forgot, the token was lost. Now, I have several games that used this system that are useless.

It might not mean much to you, but I cant afford to be buying the latest/greatest version each time it comes out. Especially when I have a perfectly good version here, just unplayable because of a silly copy protection scheme.

[Shadari]

Just think what would happen to Steam users if Valve were ever to go out of business.

[steve]

Just think what would happen to Steam users if Valve were ever to go out of business.

The forum outrage would be epic.

[treybert]

I was going to try to figure out some way to give you a custom title in vbulletin, but I can't be bothered to figure out how it works. So you'll just have to advertise on your own that you steal from the people on this forum.

You'd have to create a new usergroup then add a user rank (not post rank) for that group. Then, add said person to this, as either their primary or secondary (depending on the permissions you wish to set). Finally, update user ranks/titles.

I think at least....

[Jonathan Crane]

What about downloading a no-CD crack for Space Rangers 2 to get around Starforce copy protection? Is that also wrong?

I realize the horse is out of the barn here, but for completeness, yes, that is also wrong.

Particularly since you can get Space Rangers 2 from Stardock.net without any of that annoying Starforce copy protection.

[ElGuapo]

I realize the horse is out of the barn here, but for completeness, yes, that is also wrong.

Particularly since you can get Space Rangers 2 from Stardock.net without any of that annoying Starforce copy protection.

True but I bought Space Rangers 2 from GoGamer.com and it has Starforce on it. I really liked the game but I have a fresh installed system and don't want Starforce mucking around in it. I wish there was a way to prove to the publisher I bought it already and I want a non Starforce copy.

[unbongwah]

PC developers over the past year are all screaming that the platform is nothing but a den pirates and they are leaving to go to the consoles. That seems like an odd reaction since its easier to pirate games on the consoles, or at least to avoid buying new games via used games store or just trading amoung friends.

I'm sorry: did you just equate buying and trading used games with piracy?

Is today Bizarro Monday and I just didn't notice?

Someone buys a copy of the game, allegedly, cracks the protection and torrents it. No one but piratebay sees any money from it due to their ad sales.

Someone buys a copy of the game, plays it, sells it to Gamestop (most likely, though, they just traded it in for credit), who then resells the game with them keeping all the money. If you bring the used game back in, the cycle continues.

One of these scenarios is legal; the other isn't. When you buy a game - or a book or a DVD or whatever - you have the legal right to transfer ownership of that item to whomever you wish. You do not have the right to reproduce that work and redistribute it: doesn't matter if it's a physical or electronic copy; doesn't matter if you do it once or 10,000 times. There are differences of degree, obviously, but the Boy Scouts don't exactly hand out merit badges for being less of a lawbreaker than someone else. Why is this even being brought up?

Now I know game publishers complain about the used game market undercutting their bottom lines, but that's a completely separate issue from piracy. If there's a high turnover rate on games in the used market, then maybe game companies should take that to mean that a lot of people don't think their games are worth keeping.

[noun]

I'm sorry: did you just equate buying and trading used games with piracy?

There are a couple of industry people on this very forum that very much believe that.

[Mark Crump]

One of these scenarios is legal; the other isn't. When you buy a game - or a book or a DVD or whatever - you have the legal right to transfer ownership of that item to whomever you wish. You do not have the right to reproduce that work and redistribute it: doesn't matter if it's a physical or electronic copy; doesn't matter if you do it once or 10,000 times. There are differences of degree, obviously, but the Boy Scouts don't exactly hand out merit badges for being less of a lawbreaker than someone else. Why is this even being brought up?

I brought it up because someone earlier in the thread, iirc, posted about how torrents benefit only sites like piratebay. I threw out the idea that selling used games only benefits Gamestop.

Now I know game publishers complain about the used game market undercutting their bottom lines, but that's a completely separate issue from piracy. If there's a high turnover rate on games in the used market, then maybe game companies should take that to mean that a lot of people don't think their games are worth keeping.

Or, one could postulate that a high torrent rate would tell developers their game wasn't worth buying.

Again, I'm not at all advocating torrenting. But I think the used market has caused its share of damage too.

[WarrenM]

I'm sorry: did you just equate buying and trading used games with piracy?

Is today Bizarro Monday and I just didn't notice?

It's certainly arguable. The end result for the developer is the same: no money.

[Rob_Merritt]

I'm sorry: did you just equate buying and trading used games with piracy?

Not from a moral point of view but from a business stand point. Leaving one platform where a lot of people are playing your game without paying you money for it for another platform where a lot more people play your game without paying you money for it. There is weakness in the logic there.

[calvin940]

I realize the horse is out of the barn here, but for completeness, yes, that is also wrong.

I don't know why this would be wrong. I hate having my physical media around at my desk and since I play a bunch of different games at once, it irritates me to keep swapping CDs/DVDs all the time each time I want to boot a different game. I don't see no-cd/dvd patches as wrong if you have bought the game. These protections are there as a deterrent to piracy, but should not be considered a requirement if I have purchased the game.

I would be all for the central authorization upon installation never to be bothered again kinda like game giveaway of the day.

edit: ok, maybe wrong is not the right word. I guess it is wrong I suspect from a purely Terms and Conditions legal perspective, but perhaps not objectionable or at least not as objectionable as subjecting me to that crap in the first place.

[ElGuapo]

There are differences of degree, obviously, but the Boy Scouts don't exactly hand out merit badges for being less of a lawbreaker than someone else.

[André Costa]

It's certainly arguable. The end result for the developer is the same: no money.

No money ... after the original purchase.

[Mark Crump]

No money ... after the original purchase.

But, you can make a stronger argument the used copy is a lost new copy sale than torrenting is a lost copy sale.

[Rob_Merritt]

No money ... after the original purchase.

Whats the difference between 7 out of 10 people not pay for it because they pirated it of the web and 7 out of 10 not paying for it because they borrowed it from the three guys who paid for it?

[Kareem]

Those new-fangled libraries where people borrow shit must be destroying the book publishing industry.