The Team Fortress 2 Unofficial Official Thread

[Jon Rowe]

Nothing pisses me off more than shitty snipers. Seriously, I hate the snipers in 2fort that just sit on the roof picking off other snipers, it is pointless. I mean, when I am in 2fort I usually rotate around 5 or so sniping spots. I mean, half of the people that play sniper suck balls. I will admit, I am no Guru, but it is probably the best class I play. I have a knack for finding good spots and being patient, as well as a good flick-shot to hit people on the Go.

But seriously, I hate people sitting around playing sniper for the entire map, you need to change it up people! Also, HIDE YOUR FUCKING RETICLE AND STOP STEPPING IN FRONT OF ME. You leave that laser pointer DOT on a surface that they can see from the entrance, you are probably not going to get a kill. You have to hide your little dot pointer so you can catch people off guard running slowly. SERIOUSLY.

Also, screw servers with a class limit.

/rant

[Enidigm]

Although i have more timed logged as a sniper i prefer the Scout on all but a few maps like 2fort, which sucks anyway.

The Scout is like a Bf 109 - fast, and has a good punch. Scouts also have a couple of "class specific" benefits; they're nearly immune to spies, and very difficult targers for Snipers. Get behind any distracted opponent, shoot them in the head, and you can kill even Heavies.

[Jon Rowe]

Although i have more timed logged as a sniper i prefer the Scout on all but a few maps like 2fort, which sucks anyway.

The Scout is like a Bf 109 - fast, and has a good punch. Scouts also have a couple of "class specific" benefits; they're nearly immune to spies, and very difficult targers for Snipers. Get behind any distracted opponent, shoot them in the head, and you can kill even Heavies.

I am just not fast enough to play Scout well. I have fun, but it is hard for me to move and shoot that quickly. I will use scout sometimes though, and have q mapped to quick switch to the bat when things get hairy, lots of fun, especially on maps like Granary, which require fast capping to win.

[Enidigm]

As a Scout i can occasionally top the kill list, and generally am in the top 5. I think 2 or 3:1 kill/death ratio is pretty common. I think i've gotten a max of 9 points with the Scout, which is not as high as my 15 points as a Sniper, but it's ok, as long as my team is winning, i'm not too concerned about dying.

That being said, Scouts are limited against an entrenched opponent. I prefer having a Scout on both defence and offense on any large map though. To me the mobility of the Scout is worth it's weight in gold because it let's me maneuver, which is half the battle in point capping missions. If the Scout dies it's a class that's 2x as fast to return to station, so screwing up isn't as painful, and if the map has any terrain at all it's a class that lets me dance around and either distract and/or kill outright any attacking group.

[Alan Au]

Yeah, scout is one of the more fidgety classes for you people with your fast connections and lightning reflexes. Of course, they're also very good at avoiding fights, which I've decided is one of my better TF2 skills.

- Alan

[ckessel]

The part that baffles me is why blue seem to win so much more than red on all the symmetrical maps. My best theory so far is that maybe new players are more inclined to pick red, as it's listed first, but that's pretty weak. A bit more detail here.

Any thoughts?

I think it was in a comment after the article that mentioned Blue is the closest to the center of the screen, just one shift over from the random door.

I suspect in a tie game, people pick blue first, meaning blue is the more frequent recipient of lop sided teams. On the Xbox 360, most games are in the 6 on 6 range, which means 6 on 5 is a pretty big advantage.

If this is true (blue often gets the newest login), it's self aggravating. Red gets behind, people quit because they're out numbered, and voila, BLUE wins.

[Jonathan Crane]

Another thing struck me while puzzling over the tf2 death/heat maps - why isn't there a hotspot in the courtyard of ctf_2fort? Obviously I don't have the data valve does, but it seems like the clear choke point for any offensive push that has anyone other than scout/demo/soldier.

Ideally I'd like to see either a fly through or a way to actually walk through the maps with some sort of death/heat map shading, so you could actually see the hotspots from the player's perspective.

[ckessel]

Yeah, scout is one of the more fidgety classes for you people with your fast connections and lightning reflexes. Of course, they're also very good at avoiding fights, which I've decided is one of my better TF2 skills.

I suspect scouts are the favorite of Halo players. Twitchy and involves a lot of in your face moves (scatter gun to the head isn't a far cry from a thwack to the head in Halo). Good scouts are a royal pain.

I SUCK at Halo. Well, with the Xbox controls anyway. I was average with a mouse and keyboard on the PC. My favorite classes are the Demo and Pyro. With the Pyro, twich doesn't matter. You just flame an area and try to stick with them. Aiming isn't all that relevant :). Pyros are great anti-scout (and spy obviously) characters. Given I'm not a twich player, that plays to my strength and against the strenght of the Halo types. Pyros are also reasonably fast, which means you can run away.

With the demo man, again, aim isn't a big deal. I love running backwards, throwing a sticky at my feet, then blowing it as some soldier chases after me.

[Pentadact]

Scouts also have a couple of "class specific" benefits; they're nearly immune to spies

Which makes backstabbing them all the sweeter. My absolute favourite victims are other Spies (ideally in disguise, just before they reach a friend to backstab them. DENIED!), second favourite Pyros (because they've got to be kicking themselves), and third is Scouts. Sure, they run fast. But sometimes they're running backwards fast, and some of those times I'm one of the friendly faces behind them.

[Enidigm]

Spies are HARD to play. Really, really hard. Because i can't see exactly what other people see i've had a hard time gauging what exactly i've been doing wrong. Most of the time for me trying to pick a Spy = instant death, even cloaked! In fact i die cloaked 90% of the time (?!). Also, for some reason, i can't backstab in cloak, i have to drop out of cloak, backstab, then recloak? Spies are strange to me. There are some good players though, that seem to appear and dissapear at will, and i never know where they come from or where they go....

[SlyFrog]

Spies are HARD to play. Really, really hard. Because i can't see exactly what other people see i've had a hard time gauging what exactly i've been doing wrong. Most of the time for me trying to pick a Spy = instant death, even cloaked! In fact i die cloaked 90% of the time (?!). Also, for some reason, i can't backstab in cloak, i have to drop out of cloak, backstab, then recloak? Spies are strange to me. There are some good players though, that seem to appear and dissapear at will, and i never know where they come from or where they go....

I don't have the game here to look at the way the game defines it, but when you say "cloak," do you mean disguise as an enemy, or turn invisible?

You can not stab directly while invisible; you have to turn it off first and there is a slight delay (otherwise, it would seem grossly overpowered).

One thing that some people don't seem to get is that you can turn the invisibility on as soon as you successfully stab someone. Use it to get the hell out of there, because otherwise you will (likely) soon be dead, as stabbing gives up your disguise.

I am not a good player at any character type, let alone spies, so take the advice with a grain of salt. I think the "typical" spy strategy is to disguise, turn invisible to get behind enemy lines and somewhere that you can turn visible and move forward with out seeming out of place, and then go stabbing.

I still don't quite have the sapping part down, but that is a matter of figuring it out. I keep forgetting that you actually have to bring the invisible thing up to sap (it took me forever to figure out that you don't have to have it up to turn invisible, you can always right click to do that, even with a weapon in hand).

[wonderpug]

Spies are HARD to play. Really, really hard. Because i can't see exactly what other people see i've had a hard time gauging what exactly i've been doing wrong. Most of the time for me trying to pick a Spy = instant death, even cloaked! In fact i die cloaked 90% of the time (?!). Also, for some reason, i can't backstab in cloak, i have to drop out of cloak, backstab, then recloak? Spies are strange to me. There are some good players though, that seem to appear and dissapear at will, and i never know where they come from or where they go....

Spies can't attack when they're cloaked, but they can if they're disguised rather than cloaked. You mainly just want to use your cloak to get behind enemy lines without them seeing you moving the wrong way, and for getaways. Most of your time should be spent disguised and uncloaked.

If you're repeatedly dying while cloaked, I'm guessing you're either walking through random fire lines so you get hit and partially revealed, moving into view before your cloak is fully activated, or just plain cloaking when you're out in plain sight.

Next time you see a really good spy online, why not hop over to spectator mode to take a look at their technique?

[wonderpug]

I still don't quite have the sapping part down, but that is a matter of figuring it out. I keep forgetting that you actually have to bring the invisible thing up to sap (it took me forever to figure out that you don't have to have it up to turn invisible, you can always right click to do that, even with a weapon in hand).

I don't get what you mean by bringing the invisible thing up to sap. Your character uses an "Electro-Sapper" device to sap, and his James Bondy watch to cloak.

There's three basic turret sapping scenarios:

• Sentry with no Engineer (rare) - It's Christmas! Sap once discretely and keep moving so the non-engineers don't catch on to you.
• Sentry guarded by semi-distant Engineer (semi-common) - Maybe he's grabbing an ammo box or running to a dispenser or playing with his shotgun--but still close enough to knock off the sapper before the sentry blows. Sap once, switch to your gun and fire a few shots to finish it off quickly before the engie comes, then cloak for the escape.
• Sentry with Engineer permanently hammering away (most common) - Two primary options:
  • The Sap'n'Stab - Sap, switch to knife, stab the engineer before he wrenches the sentry a 2nd time. Requires finesse, but is very satisfying
  • The Sap'n'Sap'n'Sap'n'Sapn'... - Spam the sappers. You will win vs. constant wrench repairs. Keep circling around the sentry to keep it between you and the engineer. If the engineer is determined to hunt you down first, lead him away from the sentry and the sapper will finish it's work while he's busy chasing you. If he realizes what you're doing and turns around to save the sapper, well then that's a nice big juicy back he's just presented you. More crude than the Sap'n'Stab, but much more reliable.

[SlyFrog]

I don't get what you mean by bringing the invisible thing up to sap. Your character uses an "Electro-Sapper" device to sap, and his James Bondy watch to cloak.

I had originally believed that the Electro-Sapper was also what was responsible for turning you invisible, and thee James Bond watch just showed you the time remaining.

[Alan Au]

To be fair, I haven't really played as a spy much, but I've seen some some really bad spy players. (I've also seen some good spy players, or rather, read the status updates without actually seeing them.)

Bad spy players forget that the cloak isn't 100% effective. Bad spy players try to use heavy-traffic routes. Bad spy players change disguises while people can see them. Bad spy players backstab in view of unsapped sentries. Bad spy players cross in front of enemy pyros/heavies. Bad spy players forget that the sniper has an SMG. Bad spy players try to sap things while there are too many defenders around--you may be disguised, but people will catch on.

Bad spy players are hilarious.

- Alan

[SlyFrog]

Bad spy players forget that the cloak isn't 100% effective. Bad spy players try to use heavy-traffic routes. Bad spy players change disguises while people can see them. Bad spy players backstab in view of unsapped sentries. Bad spy players cross in front of enemy pyros/heavies. Bad spy players forget that the sniper has an SMG. Bad spy players try to sap things while there are too many defenders around--you may be disguised, but people will catch on.

So you've watched me play?

Seriously, this brings about one of the most fascinating parts of most FPSs for me. I can almost guarantee a positive kill to death ratio by playing more cautiously. But I'll end up with something like 4 kills and 2 deaths in a 15 minute round, which is boring as hell.

FPSs for me seem to be all about that gentle balance of pressing just enough to rack up the absolute numbers while not going too hard to really cause your ratio to be crap.

My other constant problem from a strategy sense is to fight my natural inclination to wanting to be the "hero loner." It works about 15% of the time. The other 85% of the time, your ass is just hanging out there trying to freelance without support, and you unsurprisingly get gunned down.

[Enidigm]

I am not a good player at any character type, let alone spies, so take the advice with a grain of salt. I think the "typical" spy strategy is to disguise, turn invisible to get behind enemy lines and somewhere that you can turn visible and move forward with out seeming out of place, and then go stabbing.

Yea, that's what i do. Then, i dunno, WHILE cloaked, someone sees me (while cloaked!), and CHASES me down and kills me. While cloaked.

I'm guessing you become partially visibile if you bump into someone.

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

I won't claim to be an expert spy, but I've had some good runs as one. A few things to remember are:

Diguise yourself immediately and don't change in the open so no one sees you turn into something else.

Cloak behind cover and wait for it to fully come up before peeking out. I often see spies in the middle of cloaking run out of cover, and a lot of the time I can then gun them down while they can't shoot back.
Similarly try to decloak in cover and walk out with your disguise on.

Killing people is more of an art as the spy. You'll get killed by sheer bad luck turning a corner into someone plenty of times. You do shimmer when bumping into someone. Wander around looking for an opportunity. A good situation is if you manage to come up on a pitched battle from behind the enemy. This is how I've gotten my personal record of a triple backstab, just start at the medic and stab through whoever you can in a row.

If someone latches onto you when you're disguised and starts chasing you and shooting, pull out your pistol and just fight to the death. I know the temptation is to run and cloak or try to stab them, but don't. Cloaking won't help because as long as they're hitting you you shimmer for a second, and unless you're already next to them the knife just isn't going to cut it.

A turret in a corner with an engineer on guard beside it is going to kill you 9 times out of 10. If he's good he'll shoot you in the face when you walk in, and then probably kill you if you sap his turret before pulling out the wrench to save it.

One thing that has helped me is cloaking just around the corner and walking into a room with people while invisible to see what they're doing. Sometimes you can spot a target when no one knows you're there, then run out and decloak before coming back in with a mission.

Stab that stupid medic and accept your death for the good of the team.

[pj-]

I don't think you become visible, but you are still physically there. So if they bump into something invisible, the first reaction would be to shoot it

[wonderpug]

Yea, that's what i do. Then, i dunno, WHILE cloaked, someone sees me (while cloaked!), and CHASES me down and kills me. While cloaked.

I'm guessing you become partially visibile if you bump into someone.

If you're getting killed after bumping into people, it's not because you're becoming partially visible: it's because you're bumping into people. If people are walking along an open path and encounter an invisible barrier, they know it's spy hunting time. After they start shooting, you do become partially visible whenever they land a hit, and then they can chase you down easily.

[Houngan]

Some info on the spy:

The cloak shimmers if you are hit, OR if you bump into an enemy. If you play enough engineer you figure this stuff out.

Cloaked spies always have 100% health. Why is that 100% soldier running back to the base?

Melee is the best bet for engineers. Your sentry gets sapped, start whacking it while half-facing the spy. When he comes in to re-sap, turn enough so that the next swing hits him. It takes two, max, to take him out.

And EVERYONE: PLEASE HELP WHEN YOU HEAR A SENTRY GET SAPPED. Shoot a rocket at the folks around it, watch the engineer's back, etc. The life you save may be your own.

H.

[Lazy Shiftless Bastard]

Seriously, I'm pretty sure you do shimmer if you bump into someone. I have seen spies when we've bumped into each other in a doorway. Then I just spray fire around randomly looking for the shimmer to continue.

[wonderpug]

Some info on the spy:

The cloak shimmers if you are hit, OR if you bump into an enemy. If you play enough engineer you figure this stuff out.

Cloaked spies always have 100% health. Why is that 100% soldier running back to the base?

Disguised spies do not usually have 100% health. When a spy disguises, their apparent health is somewhere around the 80% mark. If they trick an enemy medic to heal them, their apparent health will go up to 100%. I haven't been able to test if walking over a med-pack will do the same. You should be more suspicous of teammates at that 80% mark, not at 100%.

I'm not convinced about the cloak shimmer on bump. Seems more like a superstition that nobody's actually tested out.

Ok, I take it back. From this video it looks like you do indeed become partially visible from bumps.

[Gremlinclr]

Melee is the best bet for engineers. Your sentry gets sapped, start whacking it while half-facing the spy. When he comes in to re-sap, turn enough so that the next swing hits him. It takes two, max, to take him out.

I was just going to add that. You have at least 9 or 10 seconds for that sapper to take down a lvl 3 SG. If the spy is just standing there whack his ass with the wrench. It's usually quicker than the shotty.

Also I would like to add, I got much better as a spy once I learned the the "b" key is your last disguise. So disguise yourself as whatever then cloak behind enemy lines. Once your in position just backstab then immediatly cloak and hit "b" while cloaked. That way you can find a shady spot to uncloak and you'll already be disguised when you do.

Also choose an appropriate disguise for the job. There is almost never any reason for a friendly Sniper to be prowling around an Engys SG.

Always try to face your team. People are less worried about a teammate that has their backs to them. If your disguised as a Sniper move back and forth like your trying to find a good place to snipe from and just wait for people to run past you then strike.

Last one, DON'T REACT WHEN SOMEONE SPY CHECKS YOU! This is crucial, just go about your business like nothing happened and you're not sitting at 5 hitpoints. They will see a full health bar so just ignore them. Sure, you will get some overzealous players that empty a full clip and kill you. But most folks will shoot a couple of times and go on.

[Pentadact]

Hopefully I don't have to preface my info with a disclaimer about not having played Spy much, now that I've clocked 37 hours with the class.

I think the "typical" spy strategy is to disguise, turn invisible to get behind enemy lines and somewhere that you can turn visible and move forward with out seeming out of place, and then go stabbing.

My technique's a little different to this. I disguise as an enemy Spy on my way in, and don't worry about anyone spotting me unless they can insta-kill me. Late as possible I cloak, and redisguise as who I really want to be: Engy, Demo, Pyro. If I can't make it to a really sweet spot on one cloak, I stop to the side of an exit from the enemy base, in disguise, and backstab anyone emerging until my cloak recharges.

It's worth anything to go deep: coming from the enemy spawn puts you completely above suspicion, and you can wreak utterly obscene havoc in that position. My record is thirteen backstabs and sixteen total kills in one life - the entire enemy team, then most of them all over again when they respawned.

I was not a popular man.

Bad spy players forget that the cloak isn't 100% effective.

Its cloak can be interrupted, but while it's active it is 100%. You can see friendly Spies when cloaked, very faintly, and a lot of people assume they're enemies. But cloaked enemies are truly, completely, utterly invisible until something breaks their cloak.

Melee is the best bet for engineers. Your sentry gets sapped, start whacking it while half-facing the spy. When he comes in to re-sap, turn enough so that the next swing hits him. It takes two, max, to take him out.

Yeah. If you want to be a better Engy, play Spy first. If you want to be a better Spy, play Engy first. I'm amazed when playing Engy how ridiculously fucking hard it is to take out a Spy with the shotgun - sometimes I see the guy coming, hit him directly with all six blasts, and he's still not dead when he leaves my line of fire after sapping my sentry and leaving me reloading.

Then go back to Spy and remember; oh yeah, Engies seem to have those magical one-hit-kill Wrenches. There's an explaination for it: melee weapons are twice as likely to crit, and Engies usually build up a lot of crit-credit from their Sentry kills but don't spend it, since they don't often attack directly. That means they have a freakishly high crit chance when whacking Spies.

Also, in every private test I've conducted, a cloaking or decloaking Spy always takes critical damage from a melee hit. Tried it six times, six crits. Got bored, muttered 'good enough for games journalism work'.

I'm not convinced about the cloak shimmer on bump. Seems more like a superstition that nobody's actually tested out.

Just in case the video evidence you found isn't enough for anyone, I've witnessed this a hundred times and fallen afoul of it more than I care to mention, tested it extensively on a private server, and was specifically told about it by Robin Walker, so I think we can pretty much call this myth confirmed.

The killer is that it's not just a brief flicker, you're visible for long enough for everyone to see what disguise you're wearing and what direction you're moving in, and they only have to hit you once to start a chain of hit-checks that keep you visible until your dying breath. Running to the enemy base is this absurd game of invisible dodgems, as you hurl yourself frantically out of the way of players as they casually stroll around apparently empty corridors.

[Alan Au]

Okay, so that explains it, I'm either seeing bad spy players after they run into me, or after they run into a teammate.

Good spies sap the teleporter entrance, which is more annoying to replace than the exit.

- Alan

[ZekeDMS]

A turret in a corner with an engineer on guard beside it is going to kill you 9 times out of 10. If he's good he'll shoot you in the face when you walk in, and then probably kill you if you sap his turret before pulling out the wrench to save it.

One thing that has helped me is cloaking just around the corner and walking into a room with people while invisible to see what they're doing. Sometimes you can spot a target when no one knows you're there, then run out and decloak before coming back in with a mission.

Of course, depending on where it is, this can be a prime time to go for a capture. Most of the time, there will be a sentry a bit forward from the objective itself, trying to catch players off guard.

Me, I like to just run right on past those, grab the intel, and use my knowledge of the placement to get right out of there. I forget if TF2 has one, but if there's a "Drop intelligence" key, I certainly would recommend that as well if there's too many turrets. Get a bit of distance and some engineers will leave their posts, trying to find you. Take advantage of that time to sap, then get move the intel forward if you still have a chance. At worst, you've caused some chaos and shifted the enemy team out of their comfortable positions. And that's what the spy is all about, causing some chaos and keeping the enemy from digging in.

Plus, the spy has a nice run speed, and the revolver does reasonable damage. I've gotten more caps as a spy than a scout, just because I know what's going on more, and it's unexpected. Suddenly, the intel is being moved, or there's someone on the cap point. Sneaking through to a cap point will break a rush on one your team has quickly.

[Houngan]

And again, FFS, if you're playing a spy and the intel has been moved to some forward point in the enemy base, your job is now to keep the intel timer refreshed while the rest of the team works on it. You may die a second after picking it up, but pick it up you must. If there are multiple spies, then run a spy-train and get that intel moving!

H.

[Jon Rowe]

The key to playing spy is learning the enemy traffic routes and patterns. In most maps I sit hidden in a corner, waiting for someone to run by, I follow them.. then stab them, rinse and repeat (different location of course) it is really quite easy, you just cloak to get to a spot where an enemy would come from, run out from there, and voila you are disguised... as long as you run in the right direction. Also, backpedaling through doors works well, makes it look like you are attacking an enemy, or watching for one.

[Alan Dunkin]

Spies do shimmer when they bump; I've sniped one once when observing a friendly (wasn't that cool).

Back to snipers; it's hard not to get in a straight-up sniper duel on the symmetrical maps frankly, the key is finding spots that aren't immediately obvious and afford you a decent field of fire and isn't out in the open someplace. Getting there and surviving on a busy map of course is another question.

I was practicing a bit with the sniper on Friday night so might have been the cause of some consternation, I dunno. But yeah I try to practice offsetting the laser dot as much as possible (so the enemy can't see it on the wall in front of them, but try to get it on head-level), wait to charge, etc. One particular map I was freakin' awful.

--- Alan