Life really sucks

[Cad]

I think it's good you put that out there DeepT, because it's genuine. I also think it deserves genuine feedback. MattKeil and NoWayJose are actually pretty accurate, but don't take it too hard.

Choice 3: Dominance - Humans will never learn their lessons and are fundamentally corrupt creatures.

I would love to honestly pick choice 1, but I do not believe it would really work out. The more crap I see people do, mostly the rich and powerful, the more I think choice 3 is the only answer. I hate not having ‘faith’ in humanity, but I would be lying if I said I did.

Original sin eh?

No faith in humanity is needed. Faith is laziness. Faith means not having to think critically before action or nonaction. Faith means blind assumptions, and inattention to consequences. Faith is the absence of looking for and learning from mistakes.

I'll once again submit to you what I've been submitting in general: people are exposed to more information than ever before, and many of them, whom you would consider decent people, have become hopeless. You are admittedly one of them. There are millions. Remember that line, quoted so often it's become cliche?

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I don't like the use of evil in that because I'm no fan of religious notions of good and evil. You can think of it another way: if the honest don't work together, the cheaters will destroy both the honest and themselves.

We're living it. Seriously, it's time to stop dreaming about aliens and suit up. Read more, think more, talk to more people, work with more people, and stop looking for something to give you faith--it's not there, it never will be, it's nonsense.

[bago]

Lets just say that people in the military are real damn good at killing people, and sometimes accidents happen. Sometimes you fire on your own troops, or wipe out the wrong city because your intel co-ordinater has been up for 2 weeks and fucked something up. With 50 thousand kids and a hundred thousand bombs mistakes are inevitable.

Annoying to the survivors this leads to a rather conservative mental retreat, because you have to justify killing all those people somehow. It's the only way some people can sleep at night.

I just hope that with enough time they can come to grips with their history and be socratic and logical. It still takes time though. Dead friends and dead enemies lay heavily on the mind.

[DeepT]

It is not original sin. It is not soldiers killing people, accidental or not. It is not a cop shooting a criminal. It is not the doctor who screws up an operation.

It is the every day application of unnecessary suffering being inflicted upon others. It is the banker who offers you a bank loan at a fixed rate, but at the closing switches the loan paperwork to an adjustable rate without telling you. It is the pharmaceutical company who knows their drug is risky but tries to hide the fact so they bank a few 100 million before the FDA pulls the drug. It is HMO that denies life saving treatment because it costs too much. It is the rich old man who sends the poor young man to fight an unjust war to protect the rich old man's interests. It is the energy company who knows full well that they are doing great harm to the environment, but spends millions of campaigns of misinformation to protect their bottom line. It is the common person who is driven by greed. It is the common person's lack of empathy for their fellow human.

Re: Human but not Human
I assumed people would understand my statement in a metaphorical manner, not a literal manner. To clarify, by not being human I mean in a spiritual / emotional / mental stance which is separate from your physical body.

[Cad]

It is not original sin. It is not soldiers killing people, accidental or not. It is not a cop shooting a criminal. It is not the doctor who screws up an operation.

It is the every day application of unnecessary suffering being inflicted upon others. It is the banker who offers you a bank loan at a fixed rate, but at the closing switches the loan paperwork to an adjustable rate without telling you. It is the pharmaceutical company who knows their drug is risky but tries to hide the fact so they bank a few 100 million before the FDA pulls the drug. It is HMO that denies life saving treatment because it costs too much. It is the rich old man who sends the poor young man to fight an unjust war to protect the rich old man's interests. It is the energy company who knows full well that they are doing great harm to the environment, but spends millions of campaigns of misinformation to protect their bottom line. It is the common person who is driven by greed. It is the common person's lack of empathy for their fellow human.

So it's an inherent evil in humans? It's a general tendency to cause suffering whether directly or indirectly, whether mild or severe, that humans are born with? Sounds like the original sin meme to me, whether or not you'll agree to the common meaning of that term.

Also, all of those examples are not parallel. Publically traded corporations that have the legal obligation to be as profitable as possible, within the letter of the law, and are different from individual people. So, a public corp inflicting suffering because of maximizing profit is more a systemic problem, whereas an individual being a dick is obviously on a more individual level. You can't identify--much less solve--problems by overgeneralizing and assigning permanence to it all. In other words, saying it's "all humanity" and then saying it will "always" be that way. That approach is both dysfunctional and baseless, but it's really tempting, especially when all you see and hear about is suffering.

Re: Human but not Human
I assumed people would understand my statement in a metaphorical manner, not a literal manner. To clarify, by not being human I mean in a spiritual / emotional / mental stance which is separate from your physical body.

No, seriously, that doesn't make sense man. That's why Matt said what he did. Keep in mind, it's possible to think something nonsensical and have it make sense to you, particularly when there are key facts you don't know. We can take this to P&R, or private, but I'm pretty sure I can help you see why it's idiotic and hilarious.

[rhinohelix]

@Cad: I think that your definition of "faith" is like describing love only as obsession. In your own way that is as jaded as DeepT. There are many applications of faith that don't involve any of the negative things you mentioned. The faith of a parent in a child, for example, or of a husband in a wife. Faith in the future, or at least finding the silver lining in a world of clouds. Stop letting a negative view of religion color your perceptions.

@DeepT: People are flawed. Of that there is no doubt. And we will never stop being so, not in this life. Humanity is made up of jerks and bullies, that is true. Greed and butchery. There is, however, also love and compassion. Among the herds of sheep and wolves there are also sheep dogs and shepherds. There are those who toil tirelessly tirelessly for others and those who stand in the dark so we may sleep safely. We are the best and the worst. We always are, always have been and always will be. Hoping for some sea-change in people is like wishing there was no weather. While we will never overcome our worst natures, we can work to live our lives in a positive fashion and help shape society in such a way as to inculcate a better way into the young.

I will be repeating what others have said before but there is plenty of good in the world. Much more of it than we dare hope, I think. News *companies* don't make money publicizing it, though, and most of it goes unnoticed. From every source of traditional media we are bombarded, no pun intended, by this never-ending river of negativity and bad news. Things aren't that much different that they used to be, it's just now that our world's are so much larger in an informational sense that the narrow eye has now become a vast gulf and when people abuse dogs in Romania it makes the news in Podunk, Wisconsin.

I have felt like this in the past and the thing that works for me is this: service. This can be anything from formal volunteer work to "being the miracle" in your own way. Work to make the world a better, nicer place. As older traditions break down, many of which were formal and informal rules created to foster some sense of this, people need to find their own ways in which to spread light, whether it is feeding people at a soup kitchen or helping someone in need by being courteous unexpectedly when their day is in the dumps. Try lifting up the world around you a little at time, in your everyday life. Make a difference for people you both know and don't.

When I am most focused on myself and general state of the world, I can get down. When I accept the world for what it is and focus on others and easing their burdens as we walk through this world together, I honestly get a sense of joy that makes me feel that much better. Good deeds really are their own reward.

[Cad]

@Cad: I think that your definition of "faith" is like describing love only as obsession. In your own way that is as jaded as DeepT. There are many applications of faith that don't involve any of the negative things you mentioned. The faith of a parent in a child, for example, or of a husband in a wife. Faith in the future, or at least finding the silver lining in a world of clouds. Stop letting a negative view of religion color your perceptions.

I don't think that's an apt parallel at all, but I'd really like to leave discussing love for some other time.

Hope is different than faith. Very different. Hope, at least for me, is actually founded on something. This is common usage too, because something can give hope, although granted, in common usage it is mixed up a lot with faith (something can "restore faith" for example). Without too much semantic breakdancing--there's a ton to be had--I'll just put out the following as how I see it:

Hope is based on the possible, it's not a general thing. Faith can be too, but implies ignorance of the chance involved in what's possible. Having general "hope" is akin to faith, and it's not something I have. There's nothing inherent about hope. I didn't always have it for the things/people/etc I do now; I had to see what had been done (myself and others), what was being done, and what seems possible. Hope changes and adapts. If I realize something is impossible or absurdly improbable, I will lost hope in it happening. Hope is being aware of your uncertainty, whether it be in the actions of loved ones, or strangers, or the future in general. Faith is ignoring or replacing uncertainty with a lie. All hope I have is based on something, even if the odds are slim. I try to accurately gauge those odd as best I can (quite poor I'm sure) and increase those odds through action, and that's really what this thread is about. Looking at the reality of the situation despite the despair and seeing that even with how bad things seem, there are reasons to have hope, and there are reasons to take action, and to hope the right actions will make a difference overall.

I have hope in a lot of people's behavior (loved ones), and hope for the future, but it's not faith. Reality is harsh enough without going around blind to some of it.

Also, I know you mean well, but "Stop letting a negative view of religion color your perceptions," is too much. Am I to stop letting my lack of belief in Santa color my perception that he won't come down my chimney this Christmas? Nope.

Consider that my POV, I really don't want to get into a nonreligious vs religious joust. I do sincerely think there are reasons to think that humans can improve their world quite a bit, and reduce the suffering they inflict on one another, and avoid various doomsday scenarios, at least some of the ones we're aware of. With life comes some pain, but that's no excuse for what's going on, and personally, it's no reason to use faith. And again, I know you mean well, I wish you no ill.

[DeepT]

So it's an inherent evil in humans? It's a general tendency to cause suffering whether directly or indirectly, whether mild or severe, that humans are born with?

I do not know, I would hope not. I would ascribe genetics to be a factor of behavior. I would also not consider someone driven by genetics to do 'bad' things to be evil. They might be sick and need help, but are not "inherent evil".

Also, all of those examples are not parallel. Publically traded corporations that have the legal obligation to be as profitable as possible, within the letter of the law, and are different from individual people.

What does the 'legal' obligation have to do with anything? Are you trying to suggest that law = good? Furthermore, it is how far these corperations go to achive these goals. As a baby food manufacturer you sell apple juice and make 5 cents a bottle. You could sell colored sugar water as apple juice and make 25 cents a bottle. Do you suggest the latter is fine because it is better for the bottom line?

So, a public corp inflicting suffering because of maximizing profit is more a systemic problem, whereas an individual being a dick is obviously on a more individual level.

Systemic problem... and how does this have any relevance to anything? Or are you suggesting that because a company screws people in lots of 50,000 or more that there is some kind of volume discount in evil?

You can't identify--much less solve--problems by overgeneralizing and assigning permanence to it all. In other words, saying it's "all humanity" and then saying it will "always" be that way. That approach is both dysfunctional and baseless, but it's really tempting, especially when all you see and hear about is suffering.

You seem to have made a few incorrect assumptions about my post. Let me try and correct them for you:

1. I am not trying to identify 'problems'.
2. I am making observations. Problems are things to be solved, observations are not. It is akin to saying the color of this or that is evil.
3. This is based on how I feel.
4. I have no desire to 'fix' humanity, while I do have a desire to have humanity to *know* itself and perhaps fix itself.

No, seriously, that doesn't make sense man. That's why Matt said what he did. Keep in mind, it's possible to think something nonsensical and have it make sense to you, particularly when there are key facts you don't know. We can take this to P&R, or private, but I'm pretty sure I can help you see why it's idiotic and hilarious.

Exactly who are you, that you think you can enlighten me? I very much doubt you could help me see why it is idiotic and hilarious. I can understand why people think that and from my point of view, it is because you do not get it. Maybe I could make you understand, but why should I bother? Who are you to be worth the effort? Please do not be insulted, but you are a new forum poster whom I do not know. You have no track record and I have no idea if you are just another self-important internet idiot or someone who is genuinely worth knowing.

[Cad]

I do not know, I would hope not. I would ascribe genetics to be a factor of behavior. I would also not consider someone driven by genetics to do 'bad' things to be evil. They might be sick and need help, but are not "inherent evil".

I'm not certain this jives with the intro and the conclusions of your space alien story, but ok. I've never liked the term "evil."

What does the 'legal' obligation have to do with anything? Are you trying to suggest that law = good? Furthermore, it is how far these corperations go to achive these goals. As a baby food manufacturer you sell apple juice and make 5 cents a bottle. You could sell colored sugar water as apple juice and make 25 cents a bottle. Do you suggest the latter is fine because it is better for the bottom line?

You jumped to a huge conclusion here, and completely misunderstood what I was saying and why. My point is that they exist in a system that obligates them to only obey the law, and even then they can change the law through lobbying the right people. In other words, when choosing between a slightly harmful-to-some-people action that increases profit, particularly short-term profit (public corps), and not making that profit, they are obligated to choose the profit. That's not entirely fair, because their shareholders could force them to make a moral choice, but that doesn't happen too often, particularly when the main stakeholders are only interested in profit.

Systemic problem... and how does this have any relevance to anything? Or are you suggesting that because a company screws people in lots of 50,000 or more that there is some kind of volume discount in evil?

I hope the relevance is obvious now. The possible solutions for stopping immoral individuals and immoral mega corporations are significantly different. The mega corporation's profit interests are supposed to be balanced by the regulatory action of the government, which represents the interests of the public. If those profit interests are not because of how our currently system works, that's a systemic problem, and it can only be solved by changing that system so that it will balance.

You seem to have made a few incorrect assumptions about my post. Let me try and correct them for you:

1. I am not trying to identify 'problems'.
2. I am making observations. Problems are things to be solved, observations are not. It is akin to saying the color of this or that is evil.
3. This is based on how I feel.
4. I have no desire to 'fix' humanity, while I do have a desire to have humanity to *know* itself and perhaps fix itself.

1. Maybe you should; part of my point.
2. You make some sort of generalized attempts at observations to start, but after that it's just hypotheticals and judgement. Not seeing how the conclusions you draw about humanity are observations. You say the "more crap" you see people do makes you think they "will never learn their lessons and are fundamentally corrupt creatures."
3. Yes, of course, I assumed nothing different. That said, if I were to feel like I was in a hopeless situation when reality indicated otherwise, it'd be really beneficial for me to take a harder look at reality.
4. That would make you part of the overgeneralized problem you're decrying.

Exactly who are you, that you think you can enlighten me? I very much doubt you could help me see why it is idiotic and hilarious. I can understand why people think that and from my point of view, it is because you do not get it. Maybe I could make you understand, but why should I bother? Who are you to be worth the effort? Please do not be insulted, but you are a new forum poster whom I do not know. You have no track record and I have no idea if you are just another self-important internet idiot or someone who is genuinely worth knowing.

You're probably right, but I thought it was worth a shot. Granted, it was a really poor shot, but there might be a chance you'll actually sit down and think about how people responded, and follow the clues to step out of your deeply-treaded mental rut, or at least realize that you want out. Doing that would benefit me and everyone else indirectly, and would undoubtedly benefit you directly. How long have you been going around and around in that rut? Seriously. Don't you want out of it?

I suppose I should be insulted, but I'm not. Considering you seem to be suggesting that you are worthless to humanity, I have no idea why you're questioning my worth. That I have replied to you genuinely (assuming you believe I have) should mean something. Even if it doesn't, I'd suggest getting professional help if your thoughts and feelings have been like this for a while. It's certainly no way to live.

[MyNameIsWill]

I suggested no such thing, Mr. Liz. Or, wait, are you another Jose? I get all confused.

-Tom

You know, living in California and all, I would'a imagined that you can keep your various Jose's straight. :)

[Alistair]

Call the other one Hose B.

[jellyfish]

...I wouldn't classify myself as having any sort of mental ailment...

That must be sooo boring!

[SmokeyNecrosis]

You need to be more self absorbed and less sympathetic of others. Instead of mocking Paris Hilton, try to be more like her. It will solve your concerns for the rest of the world.