Bourne Ultimatum, spoilers fair game

[Wholly Schmidt]

That was phenomenal.

Spoilers

I'm also really glad I watched the other two again over the past two days. I recognized the opening scene was taking place during the events of Bourne Supremacy, but I thought it was just a flashback and didn't really catch on that the whole movie up till the final act was still taking place within Supremacy's overall timeframe. When Bourne calls Landy on the phone at her office, I was so wrapped up in the movie that while I recognized they were having the conversation from the end of Supremacy, at first I thought they were just having the same conversation again on purpose because Landy knew they were tapped and was trying to get him off the phone or send him some signal (which obviously, she was sending him info, but you know what I mean); it was a few seconds before I realized they'd wrapped the whole thing into the 2nd movie like that. That was delightful.

And man, the fight between Bourne and Desh was the most fantastic fight scene I've seen in a long time. I was right there with the "hold the camera still!" haters at first on the second one (and Batman Begins), but I've come around to enjoying the camera work now, and maybe it's because I like it in general more, or maybe it's because of how well it was filmed, but I thought the Bourne/Desh fight absolutely nailed the delicate balance of letting you still see and appreciate what's going on, but keeping the camera work itself every bit as brutal and violent as the fight (in a good way).

Man. Everything about this movie was awesome.

[MikeP]

I have to say I was disappointed, in that the movie vacillated between awesome and insipid. Almost every scene with Damon was great, whether he was jumping through windows or talking to other characters. But whenever he was offscreen, the movie just ground to a halt, with Joan Allen and Strathairn grandstanding for their employees, bosses, or each other.

Also, I was down with the shaky-cam in the Bourne Supremacy, since I could still generally follow what was going on, but in Ultimatum is just seemed over the top. For example, I could tell when Matt Damon rolled up the magazine to start beating on the German in Supremacy, but when he started using a washcloth to defend himself in Ultimatum, it took me a while to figure out what was going on; it also took me a second to realize he used the washcloth to strangle Desh. The shaky-cam simply drains the visual energy out of explosive actions, like jumping through windows, or cars crashing into each other; they all look the same.

[Lizard_King]

So, any speculation on the possibility of a Nicky-David relationship prior to him losing his memory? During? I got a vibe during the whole "You don't remember anything do you" that seemed pregnant with possibility.

Shaky cam is fine with me. I only really started to notice it as a result of other people's complaints, but it still didn't present me with anything but what I assume the director wanted.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I wondered about the Nicky-David thing too, so I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think how you feel about the rest of the movie will determine how you feel about that. If you already like the movie, you'll probably say something like how you appreciate that everything wasn't totally tied up with a happy ending; whatever their past was, Nicky is now on the run* which both sucks for her personally and leaves some questions unanswered. It fits with the more realistic take on things that it's not some cheesy ending where Bourne gets the girl.

But if you're looking for something to criticize, you can point to that as some cheap writing to answer a valid question: "Why is she so sympathetic to him, if not simply because the plot needed her to be?"

I'm in the first camp.

*With so much out in the open at the end, the "bad guys" in jail and Jason basically exonerated for his actions over the course of the movies (if not for all the killings and things he did leading up to them), I suppose it's possible that it would be safe for Nicky to stop hiding, but that's just speculation.

[Lizard_King]

I'm in the first camp.

I can go along with that. That's a better way of qualifying the statement than I had.

*With so much out in the open at the end, the "bad guys" in jail and Jason basically exonerated for his actions over the course of the movies (if not for all the killings and things he did leading up to them), I suppose it's possible that it would be safe for Nicky to stop hiding, but that's just speculation.

Yeah, I think you're on to the drift of the movie there, as well. Of course, if there's anything we've learned in the Bourne reality is that the moment you think you're off the hook, that's when some hotshot blows your girl's brains out.

I was impressed that she didn't get conveniently offed in the movie and set up the next vendetta when he remembers what she meant to him, which was what I feared after the little chat they had. You can only do that dead-damsel-in-distress routine so many times, James Bond notwithstanding.

I also liked the way they handled Bourne feeling obligated to come tell her brother what happened, even if he was somewhat brief about it. It ties in well with the whole "he was a volunteer" and that it's more about redeeming an antihero than cheering on a good guy who was misled. Greengrass has really made a movie for the times we live in.

Overall, I'd be really pleased if there was no sequel to this movie. I liked the way it ended, and I think it could really jump the shark in another iteration. With the deviations from the book already necessary for the current movies (which worked out well), I'd say Greengrass should just make a different action movie if he feels pressed to throw out some more ideas. I don't know if it would be any good since it's possible it would constantly scream BOURNE WAS BETTER, but it would be preferable to dragging down the series. Bad phrasing, but I think you know what I mean.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I agree.

Also, how awesome was it that he actually did the right thing to ram the SUV with his police Impala, or whatever that was? Hit it in reverse to keep his car functional, aim for the back of the SUV where the least weight is. One of those crazy "Awesome things to know that you'll never have to do" kind of survival books at the counter of Barnes & Noble once told me that was the best way to ram a vehicle, and it made sense to me. Also awesome: none of the cars in any of the car chases (in any of the movies) exploded from the crashes.

[Lizard_King]

Also, how awesome was it that he actually did the right thing to ram the SUV with his police Impala, or whatever that was? Hit it in reverse to keep his car functional, aim for the back of the SUV where the least weight is. One of those crazy "Awesome things to know that you'll never have to do" kind of survival books at the counter of Barnes & Noble once told me that was the best way to ram a vehicle, and it made sense to me. Also awesome: none of the cars in any of the car chases (in any of the movies) exploded from the crashes.

But that was great, along with everything else. Bonus points if you go to the movie with someone that psh's Bourne surviving that final crash relatively unscathed and you get to give them the EYESROLLTHAT'S WHAT YOU FOUND UNREALISTIC YOU DUMBASS.

I can't believe the positive reviews this is getting. Other than that moron that felt the need to qualify her praise by shitting on Flight 93 as too actiony, I haven't felt so in tune with reviewers in a long time.

Then I ruined a great day by renting Perfume. Not even worth a thread on its own. Stupid me.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I can deal with someone not buying him surviving that, it was a pretty horrific crash. By that point I was too sold on the movie to let that one final excess get to me. If I was going to nitpick an action scene's realism, it'd be the part where he jumps up a six foot sheer wall on the dirt bike with nothing more than a bit of the curb to launch him. Also not a deal breaker, but that was a little more eye-rolling for me than the crash.

[Machfive]

Needs less shakeycam. Other than that, fucking brilliant.

I realized they were wrapping the whole movie up within the last two scenes of the last movie, and when he called Landy from across the street, I was sold. Just great filmmaking. It's one of those things you wonder, "Did they plan that when they made the last movie, or retcon it in?" But it didn't matter, because it was awesome that they did it.

One thing my friends and I must've missed - How were they tracking the position of the target in Tangier so accurately? It was like they had managed to place a tracker on his person, and I don't get when they could've done that.

[Lizard_King]

One thing my friends and I must've missed - How were they tracking the position of the target in Tangier so accurately? It was like they had managed to place a tracker on his person, and I don't get when they could've done that.

At the same time, you might ask why the bomb was planted in the street instead of on his vehicle already (other than to build the sweet Bourne got played setup).

I seem to remember them having eyes on from humans and probably bugs, which makes the whole bomb assassination even sillier. But what a great setup for Bourne, esp in ratcheting up the threat from the hitman.

[bloo]

So, any speculation on the possibility of a Nicky-David relationship prior to him losing his memory? During? I got a vibe during the whole "You don't remember anything do you" that seemed pregnant with possibility.

Early on, before we see Nicky in Madrid, in one his flashes of scenes from his previous life, there's a photograph with his face on the left and a woman on the right, behind his shoulder. A blond with a similar haircut to Nicky. When I saw Nicky again, I was pretty certain she was the girl in the photo. It goes by very quickly though. Should be clear on the DVD, whenever that comes out (boxed Bourne set for Xmas?).

I was glad to see Landry point out that Bourne couldn't possibly be Ross's source pretty quickly after she was clued in to what was going on. Straithairn's character (Vilson? Wilson?), should have been too smart to buy that in the first place, or someone in the room. If Bourne was Ross's source in the first place, why on earth would Bourne allow himself to get tracked by the agency following Ross for a subsequent meeting? Bourne would have assumed that Ross was being tracked after a first meeting.

[Machfive]

At the same time, you might ask why the bomb was planted in the street instead of on his vehicle already (other than to build the sweet Bourne got played setup).

Well, that's precisely why the question came up. If it was a bug on the vehicle, why wasn't the vehicle bombed to begin with? If you can bug a vehicle, you can bomb it.

Maybe the bug was planted on him at the bank by a less-highly-cleared agent without access or qualifications for assassination, or something to that effect.

Either way, it was a point of confusion for myself and others in my party.

I like how they showed Desh picking up on Bourne following him, as a more than half-competent agent would've certainly done with Bourne following him out in the open like that. Sloppy tradecraft, Jason, just sloppy. Besh had Bourne dead to rights at that point, and surviving the bomb was luck of the draw. Even the best assassin needs Lady Luck on his side every now and then.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I figure they could've been tracking that guy by his cell phone or something. Nicky made a point of smashing hers shortly afterward, so I just figured it was standard that these guys cell phones could be tracked. That the guy was dumb enough to not have anticipated that is no surprise when he's dumb enough to travel with his own passport.

[Machfive]

He wasn't a spook, he was a beaurocrat, at least, that was the impression I got.

I figured Nicky smashed the phone to leave a trail, but you're right, perhaps it was to evade tracking. I figured if it was for tracking, there was no need to take it apart like she did. It's easier to spot a bunch of cell phone parts scattered on the ground than it is to spot a single cell phone lying there.

[Wholly Schmidt]

I hadn't thought about the tracking because she smashed it pretty much directly in front of where she was sitting when he left her, but maybe you're right.

And yeah, he wasn't a spook, he was a beaurocrat, but this seemed like the kind of organization that would have trackers on everyone's phone, just in case.

[Lizard_King]

He had access to high security files. He was pointedly described as the guy who handled Bourne's training. He was about as spook as you could get without being a field operator (which about covers his clumsiness when he turns on the system). Bureaucrat was definitely his cover: he's explicitly described as a CIA station liaison during the course of the movie.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Oh, I guess I was using the word spook wrong. I just meant what you said, not a field operator, explaining his clumsiness.

[caesarbear]

Very good movie, but I'd have to say it was probably the weakest of the Bourne films in terms of motivation and story. I was a bit disappointed by Nicky in this one. It was far, far too coincidental for her to show up when she does. She just doesn't have a good reason to be there or to help Bourne, unless she's a plant. I'd like to think that she was Landry's move to attempt to contain or calm Bourne, but the film doesn't really support that. She ends up being a random and unnecessary part of the film when I though she could have easily been a more interesting piece of the puzzle. Yet overall, there wasn't much puzzle in this movie. We never understand the motives behind Scott Glenn's character.

[Machfive]

He had access to high security files. He was pointedly described as the guy who handled Bourne's training. He was about as spook as you could get without being a field operator (which about covers his clumsiness when he turns on the system). Bureaucrat was definitely his cover: he's explicitly described as a CIA station liaison during the course of the movie.

Shit, you're right. Now there's just no excuse for his sloppiness.

This and the "Nikki showing up from nowhere" thing are starting to bug me. Can anyone explain either of these things away? A movie that's supposed to be so damn intelligent shouldn't have obvious plot holes like this.

[Lizard_King]

Shit, you're right. Now there's just no excuse for his sloppiness.

A lot of desk jockeys can't hack it in the field. As ceasarbear notes, though, the elephant in the room is definitely what his motives are for turning on the government. It's kind of fucked up that such a crucial plot issue is left completely unresolved.

This and the "Nikki showing up from nowhere" thing are starting to bug me. Can anyone explain either of these things away? A movie that's supposed to be so damn intelligent shouldn't have obvious plot holes like this.

"Oh, what incredible luck. I was posted to the Madrid office after the last movie. What are the odds of that, Ha Ha"

Unless there's something about former treadstoners flocking together. I don't remember enough about the books to say what Ludlum's explanation was, but I'll be damned if I'm wading through that nightmare again.

[Machfive]

It's not just a matter about treadstoners flocking together. I could buy that perhaps she'd be reassigned near another Treadstone member to make it easier to keep tabs on them, or to keep up a working relationship, who knows. I'll bite.

But what was her explanation for showing up at the office at that exact moment in time? That's the part I missed.

[Lizard_King]

But what was her explanation for showing up at the office at that exact moment in time? That's the part I missed.

You got me there. For a second there I was like "The CIA quick reaction force in Madrid is one (1) hot chick? Cool."

[bloo]

Very good movie, but I'd have to say it was probably the weakest of the Bourne films in terms of motivation and story. I was a bit disappointed by Nicky in this one. It was far, far too coincidental for her to show up when she does. She just doesn't have a good reason to be there or to help Bourne, unless she's a plant. I'd like to think that she was Landry's move to attempt to contain or calm Bourne, but the film doesn't really support that. She ends up being a random and unnecessary part of the film when I though she could have easily been a more interesting piece of the puzzle.

I don't think it was random. I think Nicky was David Webb's girlfriend in the past , and that either Daniels or someone wanted Nicky kept close to Daniels, or she wanted to keep close to him. Based on Dr. Hirsch's comments towards the end, the possibility or probability of Bourne/Webb getting his memory back was already contemplated.

But a few more hints that this, or another good reason, existed would have been very welcome.

[Machfive]

I don't really suspect Nicky's motivations, I think the past relationship was just subtly hinted at in this movie to justify the actions that we've seen from her throughout the series.

I just suspect her timing. As Liz said, when she showed up, I thought she was part of the quick reaction force at first, because at least as far as I absorbed it, they didn't give any explanation for her showing up.

The theater I saw the movie at, however, had absolutely ass-tastic audio. I probably missed or was guessing at the content of about 10% of the dialogue due to bad sound in the theater.

[caesarbear]

I don't think it was random. I think Nicky was David Webb's girlfriend in the past , and that either Daniels or someone wanted Nicky kept close to Daniels, or she wanted to keep close to him.

While the possibility of an unrequited interest or an unfulfilled interest between them is there, I don't see a past love relationship, especially a Nicky-Webb one. She's always frightened of him, throughout the series. Their first meeting would have been much different if she had known him intimately.

Nicky was the handler for the Treadstone assets, and possibly smarter and more knowledgeable that she lets on. I don't have too much issue with her being attached to a Blackbriar office, even the one that has someone who is reevaluating the program, it's even a logical connection, but her showing up at that moment, and then willingly colluding with him needs explanation and the movie doesn't provide it.

[TimElhajj]

Good movie.

I thought the obvious political overtones overcame any potential plot short-comings. This is a movie about redemption, and not just Jason Bourne’s. Bourne is an incredibly likeable guy, who let his right-wing reactionary outlook get the better of him. The movie doesn’t actually say, but one imagines it was 9-11 that drove him to such desperate measures to "save American lives." Now he’s sorry and wants to make up for it, indicting (but not killing!) all of his right wing loonies. Borne is an American everyman in a Post-Iraq-Goat-Rope-Brought-To-Us-By-Our-Post-9/11-Paranoia World. Good for him. Good for us.

You gotta love his last line to the Asset that let him live. “Look what it cost us,” he says with undisguised bitter disgust. David Strathairn and Albert Finney have classic War on Terrorism lines, like the business about saving Americans quoted above to the rational for killing untried and potentially innocent Americans like Julia Stiles' Nicky. And the use of waterboarding and hooded torture seemed to be other obvious tie-ins to current world events. I love how the end gives us Bourne escaping anonymously into the night while the business of bringing the bad guys to justice is left to the “moral” Americans like Pam "Hope you got good lawyer" Landy.

I'm a little suprised no one has brought this up yet. Am I the only one who noticed?

[caesarbear]

I'm a little suprised no one has brought this up yet. Am I the only one who noticed?

No, I think it's just rather obvious that's all. The whole series has had these tones, it's just more blatant this time around. Plus it doesn't really drive the story, it's just moments. What was the Scott Glenn character doing for example. We don't get any reasons.

You gotta love his last line to the Asset that let him live. “Look what it cost us,” he says with undisguised bitter disgust.

It is a good line, but it was stolen out of the mouth of Clive Owen's character from Identity. It makes a nice book-end.

[Erik]

The girl showing up at the just the right moment I'm willing to chalk up to crazy, crazy coincidence. But then she disappears with Bourne, and the bad guys instantly forget about her completely. She uses her own passport to get into wherever it was they went, she logs into the secret CIA computer to dig around using her own account, she uses her cell phone to issue new instructions to the government assassin. And the Straitharn people - who up to this point have been obsessively tracking everyone even peripherally involved in the chase - just aren't paying any attention until it's too late.

[TimElhajj]

No, I think it's just rather obvious that's all. The whole series has had these tones, it's just more blatant this time around.

I disagree. More than any of the others, this movie was about redemption.

What was the Scott Glenn character doing for example. We don't get any reasons.

You mean the guy who was the head of the CIA? Wasn't he running the CIA? Wasn't the CIA responsible for killing Americans to save American lives? What seems unclear about his motivations?

It is a good line, but it was stolen out of the mouth of Clive Owen's character from Identity. It makes a nice book-end.

I hadn't realized this. I can't remember the context from Identity, but it stands nicely on its own in Ultimatum.

[TimElhajj]

The girl showing up at the just the right moment I'm willing to chalk up to crazy, crazy coincidence. But then she disappears with Bourne, and the bad guys instantly forget about her completely. She uses her own passport to get into wherever it was they went, she logs into the secret CIA computer to dig around using her own account, she uses her cell phone to issue new instructions to the government assassin. And the Straitharn people - who up to this point have been obsessively tracking everyone even peripherally involved in the chase - just aren't paying any attention until it's too late.

They figured it with enough time to put out a contract on her. I thought her being tracked through Morocco was one of the most suspensful parts of the movie.

Vosen wasn't the smartest guy. They established this early on when Landy upstaged him tracking down Daniels.