Freedom Force developers to players with problems--FUCK YOU

[ExecutionerFive]

I mean, how long has this game been out already...and NO PATCH. Not even a hint as to when they might be able to produce one. There are, if you look at their forums, SO many people with crippling problems running the game...and these people can't even produce ONE FREAKING PATCH to help?

I don't care if they bring System Shock 3 out of the woodwork tomorrow...hell will be freezing over before I buy another product Irrational Games has anything to do with.

[Ben Sones]

I just browsed through the first ten pages or so of the Freedom Force forums, and I have to admit: I don't see anyone complaining about crippling problems. I see a lot of people anxious for the patch, mostly (it seems) because of the new content (single player skirmish mode, et al) that's supposed to be included. Most of the posts are pretty good natured, though, and many of them are even in character. Doesn't exactly seem to be a "village mob with torches" situation. Given the volatile nature of message boards, the posts when people get pissed are usually a lot less civil than what they have over at myfreedomforce.com.

What crippling game problems, exactly, have you seen? I encountered no problems playing the game, and I don't know anyone else, personally, that did. Not exactly a scientific sampling, I know, but there you have it.

[Bub, Andrew]

I spoke to Ken Levine at E3 and he indicated that the "patch" is really just a content update that includes the skirmish mode. I'm guessing they're having problems doing that because he thought it'd be ready in June.

I don't think there have been rampant complaints of crippling problems, but I haven't been paying attention. It worked fine on my AMD PC with an ATI card and it works fine on the Pentium with the Nvidia card... that usually covers most bases.

I'll take ExecutionerFive's word that he's having problems though, but I wonder if maybe he's got driver problems instead?

[Tyjenks]

Can you not go to any game's message board and find this exact same post from a few folks? Just take out Freedom Force and insert Heroes IV, NWN, et. al.

Hell, I just checked out the Etherlords boards last week when looking for EL II info and there were people there posting about the "much needed patch" for the original Etherlords which was "promised days or weeks ago". That game has been out a while, Nival is still working on patching it (which I commend them for), and folks are bitching nonetheless. It seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.

-Let the developers know your problem(s)
-Wait for patch by playing something else
-Patch when released

or

-Do not report problems via eMail
-post the same gripes over and over on message boards
-check site every 30 mins. for updates
-gripe again because no one lets you know "how things are coming along"
-exclaim,"I wish someone from __insert company name here__ would at the very least acknowledge our problems"
-hit refresh on boards 20 times
-sleep 3 hours
-repeat

[Wholly Schmidt]

I'll chime in with another "Huh? What problems?"

[Aszurom]

And I think that the above point Tyjenks made is the reason that either:

a) Game developers are perhaps hurting sales by having a forum where idiots can rant.

b) Game site forums should be HEAVILY moderated. It's their site, it's their right. You should have to register the product on the site to have access to the tech support forum for it - and your account on the forums is tied to your registration. That way, if you're an asshole, they can ban you in a permanent manner - unless you'd like to go out and buy another copy to register with.

I'm all about moderation. I think the first line of defense is people in your online community that you trust. Then a person or two from the dev team to keep those folks honest. General user moderation is step #1 really - because if I read something that offends me, I can mod it down and others will too... thus if I turn my threshold to see only posts that got at least 1 good vote in the positive ratio, I'm cutting out a lot of wasted verbage and saving my eyeballs for more meaningful things.

Now, when someone hits a message board and says "fuckety fucking fuck, this piece of shit, and the developers' wives are whores. Can I have a patch please? I demand it." I'd like to remove that person from the genepool. Since I cannot remove their opposable thumbs myself, I can at least moderate them out of existence.

Now, perhaps the saddest thing about the online communities is that you find out that even if the person's intent and message are entirely within the realm of the benign - aka, they like the game and just have a simple question - that the public education system in America just isn't functioning. The reason I say that is last night while browsing the forums for Falcon SP3 info I came across some posts from a guy who doesn't get the concept of punctuation, paragraphs, or correct usage of pronouns. Did he have a good comment/question? I think so, at least what I could decipher of it seemed to be friendly in tone... however, it initially struck me as an attempt by someone who was first learning English to communicate outside their native tongue, and rather poorly so. Then, as I was trying to formulate a reply that might help this guy, I noticed that he mentioned that he was a native of Houston TX.

[wumpus]

b) Game site forums should be HEAVILY moderated. It's their site, it's their right. You should have to register the product on the site to have access to the tech support forum for it - and your account on the forums is tied to your registration. That way, if you're an asshole, they can ban you in a permanent manner - unless you'd like to go out and buy another copy to register with.

I totally agree with this. I got a kick out of the disclaimer on Blizzard's site that fan fiction can only be submitted by people with valid cdkeys. Heh. That'll show you punks!!

[Kool Moe Dee]

Nice calm, rational, non-inflammatory subject and post.

This is exactly the kind of thing that was being discussed in the "When Gaming Message Boards Attack" thread.

FWIW, I haven't had any problems running FF...nor anyone I personally know, for that matter.

[Tyjenks]

This is exactly the kind of thing that was being discussed in the "When Gaming Message Boards Attack" thread.

What did that one article call these folks? Lurkers? Nope...Mr. Creepy Pants..that's it!!

[deanco]

I followed the FF tech support forums when I preordered to see what I was getting into. I'd say FF has fewer tech problems overall than most games. And the community over there is just gold, a fantastic bunch of people.

There is already a mod that enables a kind of skirmish mode anyway. It's a bit clunky, but then again it's a mod, one can't really complain.

There *has* been a bit of a hole between the release of the game and the patch. But, hey, I got my money's worth already, the SP was really well done, this skirmish mode is gonna be icing on the cake.

DeanCo--

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

And I think that the above point Tyjenks made is the reason that either:

a) Game developers are perhaps hurting sales by having a forum where idiots can rant.

b) Game site forums should be HEAVILY moderated. It's their site, it's their right. You should have to register the product on the site to have access to the tech support forum for it - and your account on the forums is tied to your registration. That way, if you're an asshole, they can ban you in a permanent manner - unless you'd like to go out and buy another copy to register with.

I'm all about moderation. I think the first line of defense is people in your online community that you trust. Then a person or two from the dev team to keep those folks honest. General user moderation is step #1 really - because if I read something that offends me, I can mod it down and others will too... thus if I turn my threshold to see only posts that got at least 1 good vote in the positive ratio, I'm cutting out a lot of wasted verbage and saving my eyeballs for more meaningful things.

Now, when someone hits a message board and says "fuckety fucking fuck, this piece of shit, and the developers' wives are whores. Can I have a patch please? I demand it." I'd like to remove that person from the genepool. Since I cannot remove their opposable thumbs myself, I can at least moderate them out of existence.

Now, perhaps the saddest thing about the online communities is that you find out that even if the person's intent and message are entirely within the realm of the benign - aka, they like the game and just have a simple question - that the public education system in America just isn't functioning. The reason I say that is last night while browsing the forums for Falcon SP3 info I came across some posts from a guy who doesn't get the concept of punctuation, paragraphs, or correct usage of pronouns. Did he have a good comment/question? I think so, at least what I could decipher of it seemed to be friendly in tone... however, it initially struck me as an attempt by someone who was first learning English to communicate outside their native tongue, and rather poorly so. Then, as I was trying to formulate a reply that might help this guy, I noticed that he mentioned that he was a native of Houston TX.

EXACTLY

And I've been running my boards this way for the past 6+ years. Those who can't go there to disrupt and bitch about nonsense, call me Hitler and say that we run the board like it was a Gestapo joint. But, nevertheless, the majority of the fanbase like it just the way it is.

Every board will ALWAYS have a few dumbass fockers who just want to disrupt and cause trouble. And all it takes is ONE post to send out the wrong impression - as it evident with the FIRST post in this thread.

I've been playing FF off and on and didn't come across ANY problems.

[Robert Sharp]

I've heard those people complaining about you, Derek ;). But I agree with you. It's your game, and it's your board. Technically, I think you have the right to ignore ANY suggestions/criticisms about your game. Does that mean it is in your best interest to do so? Probably not, but it's not like you owe us anything (excepting fraud, of course...if you sell something that ruins my computer, then you should be doing something about it..or if you blatantly lie on your game box, etc.). If we don't like your game, we can return it, or just not buy it. If it's too late for either option, well then you just won't get our sales the next time. Whatever. But I don't think it helps developers at all to listen to a small minority of gamers who want the "perfect" game. There are bugs and missing features in all games. You don't have time as a developer to put in features just because a few people want them.

However, I think a well regulated message board can be a great way to get genuine feedback that can help you in future patches or products. It should be fairly easy to tell who is providing this kind of aid and who is just ranting. If everyone has to be registered, then you can moderate the boards better, which makes them more enjoyable for everyone. That's why I tend not to reply to Mr. Guest in these boards (sorry guy!). Anonymity on the internet hasn't worked out so well overall.

[Tyjenks]

There are two people on the Heroes IV board that continue to gripe even though they have "returned the game" a week or two after it's release. Every time someone asks a legitimate question in regards to the game's quality(or lack thereof) they respond with,"This game is still in Beta. We should have received MP with the release. My post will be deleted because the company's bootlickers do not want anything negative on their precious boards." Or some similair variation.

Every, single, time. Ugh! Someone new to the board thinks, "Hmmm, that's not good." If everyone ignores the dolt, the newbie keeps a negative impression. If we refute all his claims (for the hundredth time), yet another flame war is started.

I am afraid I am with Derek. I hate the thought of banning folks, but DAMN!, enuff 'z enuff.

[Jason Cross]

Whether or not a patch is developed, finished, tested, and released often have little to do with what the developer wants to do. The publisher has a say in a whole lot of that. It could just as well be Electronic Arts' fault as Irrational's.

And let's just say that Irrational was happy to sign on with Crave, and then pretty upset (after System Shock 2) when Crave turned around and had all their titles published by Electronic Arts.

It wouldn't surprise me if Irrational made it a policy, in writing, never to have anything to do with EA ever again. :D

[Xaroc]

I am afraid I am with Derek. I hate the thought of banning folks, but DAMN!, enuff 'z enuff.

Banning people just creates an air of distrust. I would rather have the idiots around rather than worrying about what might be over the line or people banning people who have legitimate gripes or because the mods don't like them. You have to set down some rules but banning people because they are badmouthing you is a really sissy thing to do. Rather than standing in and debating them like a man or ignoring them you just take your football and go home when you ban someone.

-- Xaroc

[Tyjenks]

You have to set down some rules but banning people because they are badmouthing you is a really sissy thing to do. Rather than standing in and debating them like a man or ignoring them you just take your football and go home when you ban someone.

It has nothing to do with debating a point. That is fine. These people just say the same thing over and over and over. They are spamming boards in most cases. Not fostering debate or bringing up problems that need to be fixed. Most boards do have anti-spam rules. You can even say, "this game sucks my asshole" on the boards I am speaking of.

Xaroc, how many times past the twentieth do you have to put up with the same post. It fills up already slow boards and wastes everyone's time; the members reading it and the mods having to sensor offensive posts or delete spam.

"This game is still in Beta. We should have received MP with the release. My post will be deleted because the company's bootlickers do not want anything negative on their precious boards."

The above quotes were perfect examples:

-The game was not in Beta, it had bugs. This was very misleading information coming from a board regular to new members.

-The MP point sucked not being in the game, but it was not promised on the box and it was announced one month before the release it would not be included.

-Posts went undeleted for months even though they were clearly spam and added nothing to discussion of the game or it's problems.

The mods finally cracked down when it got to the point of being ridiculous and repetitive, so useless posts were deleted. Still no one has been banned. Banning someone should be the last resort, but in cases and in examples we have talked about I think it is certainly reasonable.

....banning people because they are badmouthing you is a really sissy thing to do.....standing in and debating them like a man......

I had not of thought of your more mature suggestion. Calling someone a sissy and insulting their manhood (even though it could just as easily be a woman) is obviously the way to go.

[Anonymous]

In this day and age, not having message boards is just a method of sending sales to another game. The only questions are how many and how soon.

Not properly managing those forums has the same effect. It is all about correctly managing the expectations of the players, which takes time, patience, honesty, timely communications, the right skills and attitude and a sense of humor. Most dev houses and publishers haven't the requisite time, patience, experience and/or skill sets to do this correctly; most don't even know what that encompasses. The majority of the community managers I've met over the years have been chosen not for the proper skills and talents, but by the 'first raised hand' method. This is akin to choosing someone to fix your plumbing because he once fixed the alternator on your car. Sometimes it works; mostly, it doesn't.

This is self-correcting over time, as companies begin to realize that just shipping a game to retail doesn't end the process. In some ways, the retail side is becoming like MMOGs; they are no longer just products. After the ship, they also become a service. That requires a different skill set. Community management is becoming or will become a professional career track. It is a necessity in the wired age.

[Joe O'Malley]

The internet has ruined tech support, I think. Back in the day, if I ran into a problem in a game I would take the time to make sure it was really a problem and not just something I was missing before I wrote out a letter to the company to see if there was something to be done. I never failed to have a company write me back, and generally send me patch disks in those cases. Nowadays it seems like every person that hits the smallest snag immediately starts flaming. No faq reading, no thread searching, just endless rows of the same (answered many times over) question on the message boards. If the email pipeline is as clogged up anything like the message boards, it wouldn't surprise me why so many companies have tech support that seems so unreliable.

An example would be Morrowind. I ran into a snag on my Xbox where I apparently already killed someone who is needed for me to complete my stronghold ( a bandit in an already-looted dungeon). I wanted to report this to Bethesda and see if there was any way around it. I've left them one email a week for three weeks now, and searched the board for an answer, with no luck. They aren't being rude. They just aren't replying at all. If their mailboxes are clogged with all the non-researching flamers that populate their board, though, I can see why.

[mtkafka]

Patch is out you whining bastards.

http://www.irrational.com.au/ff/downloads.cfm

So shut up already! :lol:

etc

[Tyjenks]

Wow!! Maybe ExecutionerFive's (this thread's originator) tactics work and the Qt3 boards are pretty powerful. One rabid complaint and one day later, voila! Here is your patch sir.

:wink: I take everything I said back. Bitch away everyone. The squeaky wheel gets the worm or something like that. :wink:

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

I've heard those people complaining about you, Derek ;). But I agree with you. It's your game, and it's your board. Technically, I think you have the right to ignore ANY suggestions/criticisms about your game.

Indeed.

Apparently, for some unknown reason - probably only known to them, gamers tend to think that devs/pubs have to provide a forum for them. I develop a game, stick it in a box and sell it. You buy it. If you need tech support, there is a website. There is NOTHING that says I have to provide a forum for any jackass to disrupt.

As far as I'm concerned, coming to MY web board is a priviledge and NOT a right. Which is why you can't post unless you are registered. And in order to register you must have a valid game CD Key - which gets checked against an internal DB. If you don't want to register. You can't post. If you don't post, then you probably have nothing of benefit to add to the forum. The forum is open for browsing, downloads etc. But when it comes to posting, it is moderated air-tight.

And here comes the shocker, unless you are actually registered and have a valid CD key, the only multiplayer server you're going to be joining, is the one you've been dreaming about. Not only am I not allowing idiots in my web forum, they don't last more than a minute on the #battlecruiser IRC channel (on gamesnet.net) and aren't bloody likely to show up on my master server lobby area either - since that also has a robust chat frontend (for people chatting from the lobby to the game world and vice versa). Kinda like GameSpy Arcade. Without the crap.

The result of this policing? Well, take a look at my board and draw your own conclusion. You can find ANY and ALL info you are looking for in under ten minutes. There are various forums and we hardly ever have to deal with off-topic posts. The general discussion forum is specifically for noise and other types of non-game related banter.

Compared to other tech support boards, if there is problem, there is a 99.9% chance that we know about it first. And usually even before I get my act in gear, someone (another dev, beta tester, community member) has probably found a workaround. Heck, sometimes you even have posts like ...Derek's probably still in bed and will probably see this the minute he wakes up.

If anyone is bitching about something, either (a) we don't see it (b) they mask it in a carefully worded post (c) they think twice about bitching about it in a disruptive manner and go have an Apple instead.

I LOVE my site and community - its like this whole other world. Heck, we just had a full blown court-martial hearing (the BC games being primarily military and all) in which a member was banned from posting for a month. The crimes? Cohorting with known detractors and adversely questioning the viability of my BCM multiplayer iniative. heh, a definite no-no. I opted for the firing squad, but I couldn't get that one past the mods and admins, so, a good ol' fashion courtmartial it was. :)

Does that mean it is in your best interest to do so?

Who cares? The last time I checked, only one person was responsible for what was in my best interests. Me. I live and die by the decisions I make. Good, bad or ugly.

Probably not, but it's not like you owe us anything (excepting fraud, of course...if you sell something that ruins my computer, then you should be doing something about it..or if you blatantly lie on your game box, etc.).

100% correct.

But even then, if you look at the new EULA versions in some games, you will see that even considering the above, there is always an out.

In fact, I think that BCM was the first industry game to actually print the EULA in the inside cover of the manual. Though, like other games, it is also displayed in the installshield window and also on disk, I took this one step further so that NOTHING was lost in the translation. In fact, take a look at my EULA. These days, with the trigger happy attorneys, once can't be too careful.

If your machine blows up while you are installing my game, its your problem not mine - because I know for a fact that there is nothing my game that will cause your machine to go nuclear. :) But if you find a bug, problem etc, I'll always be there to investigate and fix it. Just don't go thinking that because you spent $40 on my game, you have a right to bitch slap me and call me Sally if something goes wrong. That costs a little bit more. Assuming you survive my onslaught.

When it comes to detractors, trolls, plain-old-rude anti-social misfits, I have a ZERO tolerance level and don't even think twice about coming out guns blazing. Which is why most, who don't like receiving that which they dish out, come out with crazy shit like ....the customer is always right but Derek Smart is an ass who abuses his customers.

There is a blurry line between a customer and a jackass. I, for one, never try to tweak the scope. If its blury and you, being a customer, don't know your place and want to be a jackass, well then, you only have yourself to blame. As long as I get to sleep at night, I don't give a toss what some idiot is thinking about how I treated him/her. You treat someone with respect, you deserve the same in return. Come at me with foul language and nonsense, I'm bringing a copy of War And Peace. Its the only way to be sure.

If we don't like your game, we can return it, or just not buy it. If it's too late for either option, well then you just won't get our sales the next time.

Again, excellent point and that is EXACTLY how it should be

Whatever. But I don't think it helps developers at all to listen to a small minority of gamers who want the "perfect" game. There are bugs and missing features in all games. You don't have time as a developer to put in features just because a few people want them.

There are always exceptions though. Why? Because with innovation you can't always rely on the masses to see the same picture. I have taken lots of suggestions from folks who had seemingly ludicrous ideas and which some didn't share. But being the quintesential (sp? piss off!) innovator and resident madman, I usually see something that most don't and just go ahead anyway. When you come up against ludicrous feature requests - and incessantly - thats when its time to batten down the hatches and kill the thread.

However, I think a well regulated message board can be a great way to get genuine feedback that can help you in future patches or products. It should be fairly easy to tell who is providing this kind of aid and who is just ranting. If everyone has to be registered, then you can moderate the boards better, which makes them more enjoyable for everyone. That's why I tend not to reply to Mr. Guest in these boards (sorry guy!). Anonymity on the internet hasn't worked out so well overall.

Again, I agree 100%

But hey, some companies just close down the entire board and walk away. Ultima IX anyone? :)

In this day and age, not having message boards is just a method of sending sales to another game. The only questions are how many and how soon.

Not properly managing those forums has the same effect. It is all about correctly managing the expectations of the players, which takes time, patience, honesty, timely communications, the right skills and attitude and a sense of humor. Most dev houses and publishers haven't the requisite time, patience, experience and/or skill sets to do this correctly; most don't even know what that encompasses. The majority of the community managers I've met over the years have been chosen not for the proper skills and talents, but by the 'first raised hand' method. This is akin to choosing someone to fix your plumbing because he once fixed the alternator on your car. Sometimes it works; mostly, it doesn't.

This is self-correcting over time, as companies begin to realize that just shipping a game to retail doesn't end the process. In some ways, the retail side is becoming like MMOGs; they are no longer just products. After the ship, they also become a service. That requires a different skill set. Community management is becoming or will become a professional career track. It is a necessity in the wired age.

I couldn't agree more. And therein lies the rub. Even the BEST trained community management team is going to need a degree in dealing with anti-social misfits and fuckups in order to have any forum be self-moderated and clutter free. Other than that, the more things change, the more they'll stay the same.

As it stands, if a board is not moderated, whether it is run as a service or not, there can and will be nonsensical rubbish going on. You try searching for meaningful topics and/or problem solving posts in some of these boards and you might as well have the hair on your back shaved with a plastic knife.

I can't wait to take my MMOG alternative, BCO, live. Once that happens, we're in a whole new ballgame. Not only am going to outright ban folks and cancel their accounts, I don't care if they've paid a decade in advance, if they're gone, they're gone. Keep your money and have the damn box as a souvenir. But no matter what, there is no way on Earth I am ever going to condone rubbish on my boards nor my game world. Period.

Nowadays it seems like every person that hits the smallest snag immediately starts flaming. No faq reading, no thread searching, just endless rows of the same (answered many times over) question on the message boards.

....and that, right there, is exactly part of the problem. You hit it right on the head.

Also, I'm on the side of the genuine gamers in that most companies don't bother to collate all this info and have it available in a single place. This is why the signal to noise ratio is so high on boards because most gamers just give up and just type up the same old crap.

On my board, doing crap like that will get you mugged. Why? because all the information is readily available and you have NO business asking the same question more than once.

[Xaroc]

You have to set down some rules but banning people because they are badmouthing you is a really sissy thing to do. Rather than standing in and debating them like a man or ignoring them you just take your football and go home when you ban someone.

It has nothing to do with debating a point. That is fine. These people just say the same thing over and over and over. They are spamming boards in most cases. Not fostering debate or bringing up problems that need to be fixed. Most boards do have anti-spam rules. You can even say, "this game sucks my asshole" on the boards I am speaking of.

Xaroc, how many times past the twentieth do you have to put up with the same post. It fills up already slow boards and wastes everyone's time; the members reading it and the mods having to sensor offensive posts or delete spam.

The problem is once you start deleting posts for whatever reason people can never be sure what is going on. I have been banned from a website forum (some of the old time QT3ers know which one) because the guy who ran the site didn't like that I didn't agree with him 100% and I was not the first. This guy would have a bad day and start deleting posts. Then you would get gaps in threads, and people asking questions, etc. etc. Mind you these were legitimate posts not spam.

"This game is still in Beta. We should have received MP with the release. My post will be deleted because the company's bootlickers do not want anything negative on their precious boards."

-Posts went undeleted for months even though they were clearly spam and added nothing to discussion of the game or it's problems.

....banning people because they are badmouthing you is a really sissy thing to do.....standing in and debating them like a man......

I had not of thought of your more mature suggestion. Calling someone a sissy and insulting their manhood (even though it could just as easily be a woman) is obviously the way to go.

Jeez are the freaking PC police out today? Let me rephrase: "You(the general form could be male or female) are a wimp (non-gender specific although might be misconstrued as a male type insult) err make that someone who is less than brave (that should do it) if you resort to deleting posts rather than discussing real problems people bring up."


If the board has clearly defined rules against spam or other types of behavior then of course delete posts. My only worry is over zealous mods who start deleting beyond what the rules state. If people start thinking you are covering shit up your reputation will suffer. The biggest thing I think is consistancy. If people see stuff consistantly dealt with in a reasonable manner then they will be mostly understanding. Just look at the U9 board fiasco for an example of how not to handle a message board.

-- Xaroc

[Tyjenks]

The problem is once you start deleting posts for whatever reason people can never be sure what is going on. I have been banned from a website forum (some of the old time QT3ers know which one) because the guy who ran the site didn't like that I didn't agree with him 100% and I was not the first. This guy would have a bad day and start deleting posts. Then you would get gaps in threads, and people asking questions, etc. etc. Mind you these were legitimate posts not spam.

I would agree with you on that. I believe we were simply speaking of meaningless rants and spam, however.

I had not of thought of your more mature suggestion. Calling someone a sissy and insulting their manhood (even though it could just as easily be a woman) is obviously the way to go.

Jeez are the freaking PC police out today? Let me rephrase: "You(the general form could be male or female) are a wimp (non-gender specific although might be misconstrued as a male type insult) err make that someone who is less than brave (that should do it) if you resort to deleting posts rather than discussing real problems people bring up."

My point was not one of being PC. I think all the PC nonsense is bullshit. You implied that my banning point of view was a "sissy thing to do" and that people were not capable of debating like men who had banning practices. I realize you were probably not singling me out, but that is how I took it.

If the board has clearly defined rules against spam or other types of behavior then of course delete posts. My only worry is over zealous mods who start deleting beyond what the rules state. If people start thinking you are covering shit up your reputation will suffer.

Agreed, but I think some companies would rather have their reputation suffer a little than put up with one or two obnoxious morons. One bad apple can ruin the whole batch or something like that.

[Xaroc]

My point was not one of being PC. I think all the PC nonsense is bullshit. You implied that my banning point of view was a "sissy thing to do" and that people were not capable of debating like men who had banning practices. I realize you were probably not singling me out, but that is how I took it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that at all. I just meant the people doing the banning/deleting are sissies at least when they do it for the wrong reasons.

-- Xaroc

[Tyjenks]

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that at all. I just meant the people doing the banning/deleting are sissies at least when they do it for the wrong reasons.

-- Xaroc

No apologies necessary. Damn message boards. It's difficult to attempt actual conversations that are meant to be face to face, but when it's all we've got, oh well.

And I agree, I guess I just have not visited boards where personalities have clashed and banning occurs on questionable grounds. The only people I have seen banned were obvious degenerates. :)

[Dave Long]

Xaroc and I as well as others that post here from time to time have been on the receiving end of some unwarranted banning. We know from experience.

--Dave

[Tyjenks]

Xaroc and I as well as others that post here from time to time have been on the receiving end of some unwarranted banning. We know from experience.

--Dave

I must be sheltered or do not visit enough of the more incendiary boards around the net. No one here would come close to fitting into the molds of folks I have seen banned. I still think there is a place for it as a last resort.

You two sweethearts being banned. That's just shocking. :wink:

It seems someone is testing the boundaries of message board irritation even as I type this. Ugh! I hope this discussion did not spawn that. :evil:

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Here we go

[Tyjenks]

]Here we go

Now that is a waste of time, but I read it so I have no room to talk.

Here is a forum which is catching on and we should all take a gander at:

My first post here, just registered... However, my favorite forum is firstones.com (dedicated to the Babylon 5 game that was canceled). It has an excellent group of people there. Check it out

MmmmHmmm. That does sound good. Babylon 5 + cancelled PC adaptation = tight knit community of very pale people.

[Aszurom]

There's nothing sadder on earth than a disowned trekkie.