WOW honour smackdown!

[RobotPants]

I look at it like this. The honor nerf was needed, because you could do nothing and still rake in 17.5k honor in a day. Literally, nothing. Infact, I did that on sunday to see how much I could get by doing nothing. The honor was flowing way too fast for the current price level, and no matter the fix that was done, you are still going to see an excess of tokens happening.

Um, you are in no way a typical player. I played for a good chunk of the weekend and only ended up with 5,000 or so.

Anyway, I really like the change to the system. I thought it would help get me geared up for the expansion, but it's not looking so good anymore. I thought I would be able to earn enough between now and mid-January to get a weapon and some pieces of armor, but I don't think that'll happen with this new increase. It's a shame. I thought Bliz were actually trying to normalize gear to actually make PvP more fun. Waiting in the queues to get rolled by epiced-out premade groups is in no way enjoyable.

[Jason Cross]

I look at it like this. The honor nerf was needed, because you could do nothing and still rake in 17.5k honor in a day. Literally, nothing. Infact, I did that on sunday to see how much I could get by doing nothing.

Let's see... used to get 350 honor per AV match (the one you can most safely just sit there AFK in), if your side won. That would take 20 minutes on a pretty fast, but not unreasonably so, match.

That's fifty AV matches to get 17.5K honor, at 20 minutes each it's 16.67 hours.

So yeah, you can get 17.5K honor in a day "doing nothing at all" if you're one of those asses that sits in the entrance cave all match, and every 20 minutes or so you just queue back up for the BG again, for almost 17 hours. Sure.

Maybe 8.5-10 hours if you do that in AB on a weekend when it's AB bonus honor, and your team wins most of the matches and does so in a short 10 minutes. But you're an even bigger ass if you just sit at the entrance AFK in AB, where the smaller teams really need everyone to participate actively.

Jason - you know you don't get gear damage from pvp kills?

Really? Tell that to my gear that has been getting very much damaged, constantly. And not just in AV where there are NPCs, but in WSG and AB where there are no ways to die except other players, too (I have 37 WSG marks and 69 AB marks now).

Anyway, I love the new honor system. And I agree that 30% less honor is probably a better balance - you'll still get one very nice piece of equipment after 1 week of "few hours a day" grinding, 2 weeks tops. But the whole thing arguing that premades against PUGs isn't a problem, or tier 2 raid gear guys against PUGs in blues, is BS. Sure tactics helps. I've gotten lucky and played against idiot premades and barely scratched out a victory. But you gotta count on the premade - who plays together regularly - having their heads up their asses. Most don't. All other things being equal, the sides are as horribly mismatched as if you let level 45s play against level 59s.

[Backov]

I can't believe anyone is whining about this.

Do any of you fucking remember what it took to get PvP purples BEFORE the patch? Fuck. Get some perspective you PMSy bitches.

You posted this exact quote on the wow forums didn;t you? I recognize it.

[Gordon Cameron]

I have had to repair after AVing on my warrior, though obviously not at anywhere *near* the expense there would be if the 10% durability reduction per death (as is the case in pve) obtained. I assume it's damage sustained not from dying, but from being beaten on. If there's another explanation I don't know what it is. However, I have only done AV on my warrior, where theoretically the damage could be explained by hits taken from NPCs. Especially in my case as I tank the elites a lot. Not sure how this matches up with Jason's experience as a priest (?).

[deccan]

Getting hit by other players definitely does cause durability loss but it's pretty insignificant.

[Athryn]

And this is the point. There is no reason to limit these things that much when it'll all get replaced halfway into TBC. Which is in 4 weeks. Which means that these things HAVE TO be easy to get to be meaningful, as once TBC is out, you're better off leveling instead of PvP grinding.

There's a whole other set of PvP armor for level 70s as well though.

Even though the stuff will get replaced as you level, it's still nice to have some nice equipment for leveling, it does make the job easier.

[Sebmolo]

I have had to repair after AVing on my warrior, though obviously not at anywhere *near* the expense there would be if the 10% durability reduction per death (as is the case in pve) obtained. I assume it's damage sustained not from dying, but from being beaten on. If there's another explanation I don't know what it is. However, I have only done AV on my warrior, where theoretically the damage could be explained by hits taken from NPCs. Especially in my case as I tank the elites a lot. Not sure how this matches up with Jason's experience as a priest (?).

Ah, my mistake - it's the 10% durability loss I was thinking of, which you don't get in pvp deaths. You do get damaged.

Just had a kickass AV win - we lost galv to the zerg pretty quick but fell back in good order to IB and FW, headed off a bunch of ninja assaults on the RH, ground our way through SP and took down van the man. Def def'd, off off'd, damn it was fun. Sooooo many pallies, seemed like half the opposition were wearing a bubble at one point.

[MikeOberly]

I've found that horde pugs generally wipe the floor with alliance pugs in AB and WSG, while the opposite is true in AV. Any number of reasons why could be speculated, but I'm personally convinced that the median skill level on the Alliance is generally lower than that of the Horde. It certainly seemed that way during my short-lived Alliance career, anyway.

The main reason Alliance rolls AV is because the layout hugely favors the Alliance. Reverse the bases and watch the Alliance lose horribly. As Horde, I've lost 24 straight AVs the last few days, and most of them weren't even close. Ever run AV as an Alliance? It's a walkover.

AB does seem to favor the Horde, and I'm not sure why -- perhaps it's a little easier to get to nodes from the starting area?

[markv]

Normal wear and tear damage is taken on your gear in PvP, however there is no durability hit when dying. This needs to be in place or there is really zero risk for PvPing and what's the point of ever doing anything else, since you spend no money ever, nor any costs for what you are doing to upgrade.

AB doesn't favour the horde any more than it does the Alliance. The reason Horde pugs > Alliance pugs is because Horde have been so used to being outnumbered / out geared on the servers that they tend to have to learn to pick up their game at a faster pace. As such working as a team is vital and they tend to communicate a lot more. I was talking to a guy on my old server who used to play Alliance as well (PvPing non-stop doing the grind to General) and he said when he was pugging it the difference between Alliance and Horde pugs were huge in regards to communication and general team work.

Now for my 17.5k in a day, it was done to see just how much I could get in a day SOLO going at the same pace as I had to for the HWL gear. 17.5k in 1 day going at that pace was a far too extreme for solo, and it would be even worse in a premade rolling pugs in the minimum time frame for those BGs. You might try and call bullshit that a HWL/GM grind pace would require 14 to 16 hours on the weekend, but depending on the server you're on that is exactly how much time you had to invest on a Saturday and Sunday if you wanted to ensure rank 1 for the week. (FYI, I did my 17.5k in 14 hours, but that's because for about 60% of the games I was busy fighting to snag extra honor from kills)

The changes have been awesome so far, and the toning down by 30% was needed. But again, they need to return a way to shed your excess tokens by turning them in for honor like you could before. Doing this should help the mailbox spam, as well as help people build up honor a bit faster, but not at an unreasonable pace, and won't make the tokens go to waste.

PS - and before you start calling me a fucking no life loser, the only reason I had this kind of time is the joy of being off of work on ltd because of cancer. plus when it's -40c outside in the winter i'm really not a keener to go out and freeze my ass off.

[DeepT]

Uhh.. that is your server dude.

On my server the horde always won AV until cross realms battlegrounds. Even last week when the cross realms servers went down and we went back to server only BGs, the horde won every match AV.

As for AB, alliance tends to win that more, but I do not think the battle field is unbalanced, just the classes. In think is smaller, close quarters battles Pallys > Shaman.

WSG on our server normally goes with the horde though. Druids + Shaman = winning combo for flag running.

[Stroker Ace]

WSG on our server normally goes with the horde though. Druids + Shaman = winning combo for flag running.

Heh I thought it was Paladins... Blessing of Freedom vs. the snare totem I guess :P

[Mark Asher]

And this is the point. There is no reason to limit these things that much when it'll all get replaced halfway into TBC. Which is in 4 weeks. Which means that these things HAVE TO be easy to get to be meaningful, as once TBC is out, you're better off leveling instead of PvP grinding.

I agree, but I understand Blizzard’s POV also, even if I don’t fully agree with it. If you let players get a full set of rank 14 gear before the expansion comes out, that renders nearly all of the loot rewards until you hit the mid to late 60’s meaningless.

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%. People wouldn’t have bitched too much about that. Just readjust the honor required for the level 70 PvP rewards to better reflect the time Blizzard thinks it should take players to get that stuff.

It’s still a better reward system than they previously had. I don’t like it for the idea of getting a full set, but rather for the chance to pick up a piece here and there that replaces the weaker parts of my gear.

It also adds some spice to the PvP servers. Now kills out in the wild give you some honor in the bank.

[olaf]

A better idea would have been a hard or soft cap on honor per day.

Realistically your average wow player is not pulling 1k honor/hour...I dont think. But you have T3 geared premades rolling around cheesing queues that are pulling 2K+/hour. Thats the problem IMO.

Either way, test this shit first? If the rate of honor gain was too fast...how did you not know it was going to be too fast? Do they just pick values out of a hat?

[HRose]

Normal wear and tear damage is taken on your gear in PvP, however there is no durability hit when dying. This needs to be in place or there is really zero risk for PvPing and what's the point of ever doing anything else, since you spend no money ever, nor any costs for what you are doing to upgrade.

Your point is silly.

Yeah, you don't spend much if you just do PvP beside the usual repairs and reagents.

But, hey, you also don't gain anything at all.

I think it's a good balance ;p

[Jakub]

You posted this exact quote on the wow forums didn;t you? I recognize it.

I've only posted once on the WoW forums, and that wasn't it.

I find that MMO forums are filled with whiners whose negativity affects my enjoyment. Back in WoW beta, I got depressed about my warrior and all the perceived nerfs, so I never played WoW at launch. Turns out, warriors are pretty kickin' nowadays.

[Jakub]

The main reason Alliance rolls AV is because the layout hugely favors the Alliance. Reverse the bases and watch the Alliance lose horribly. As Horde, I've lost 24 straight AVs the last few days, and most of them weren't even close. Ever run AV as an Alliance? It's a walkover.

AB does seem to favor the Horde, and I'm not sure why -- perhaps it's a little easier to get to nodes from the starting area?

Horde get to pull the boss in AV without aggroing nearby mobs, don't they?

[Gordon Cameron]

Horde get to pull the boss in AV without aggroing nearby mobs, don't they?

That can be done, though I have not seen it on the Horde AVs I've been in. Perhaps more from lack of knowledge/coordination than moral rectitude. I did see some guy on raid chat say "use the bug to pull only Van" one time, but we never got far enough for it to matter, and I don't know if anybody listened to him.

[Sebmolo]

There's one thing you have to realize here. You can talk tactics and strategy all you want, but in the end it boils down to one fact: 3/4 of all players, whether they're Horde or Alliance, don't think tactically at all. They just run straight forward until they see some enemy, and then they try to kill them.

Horde takes Stonehearth quickly while the Alliance is messing about with Galv and Iceblood Tower. Alliance who die on the front lines res at Stormpike, run foward, and run into the Horde front line. They attack, die, and res at Stormpike again... and all of a sudden, you've got a heavy Alliance defense of Stormpike. This isn't a deliberate strategy, notice no brains were used, it just *happens*.

Horde, on the other hand, charges forward, and when they die, they res at Iceblood. It's just a little hop off the ledge, and they're back at the front lines again. Eventually Stonehearth caps (usually before Iceblood is taken), and they start ressing there, with a free run up to the front lines. Presto, Horde has a 40-man offense. This isn't a deliberate strategy, no brains were used, it just *happens*.

Once Iceblood is taken, the Alliance force is usually at Frostwolf, out of the way of Horde moving north from their tunnel. So Horde can usually keep running forward to offense if they like. Alliance, on the other hand, has no way past the Horde attack on Stormpike. Except for going under the bridge and past the pond, which 3/4 of them are too stupid to do.

So, the layout of the midfield means that, if no brains are used on either side, Horde will end up with a 40-man offense, and Alliance with a strong defense. Unless Alliance ends up with 30 or more on D (which does happen), this is a guaranteed win for Alliance, since a 20-man defense can hold a 40-man offense forever.

Key to the Horde, on this analysis, is breaking up the alliance zerg at the start. If they're not a rolling unstoppable deathmob, they're much less dangerous.

[Sebmolo]

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%. People wouldn’t have bitched too much about that.

It's cute that you think that.

[Athryn]

Heh I thought it was Paladins... Blessing of Freedom vs. the snare totem I guess :P

Paladin, meet dispel magic. I use that on my horde priest all the time in WSG on paladins. It's quite amusing to see that paladin's reaction when he figures out his easy escape is suddenly missing.


And for people saying that various BGs favor sides, it's really a mental thing more than anything else. I've found that certain bg clusters have people that are more defeatists, which is why I moved my characters over to whatever cluster moonrunner/greymane is on, because it's pretty much a 50/50 split in any battleground.

[Sebmolo]

Horde invariably love killing pallies, so crunchy, so delicious.

[Mark Asher]

Horde invariably love killing pallies, so crunchy, so delicious.

Yeah, because they are SO annoying. You have to kill them three times before they die.

They are hitting hard in the BC beta, though. They used to be these weird things you couldn't kill but then couldn't kill you in return. Now they have decent DPS.

[Backov]

In the current patch too.. I dunno what the hell they are doing, but in the BGs I've had pallies hit me for ~900 damage at 20 yards. Not to mention it seems like they have several ranged stuns now.

[Qmanol]

There's a whole other set of PvP armor for level 70s as well though.

Even though the stuff will get replaced as you level, it's still nice to have some nice equipment for leveling, it does make the job easier.

Is there? The only level 70 stuff I've seen is a few rings and the Arena gear. Anyway, Blizz have said they'll drop the honor cost of the PvP items when BC comes out, so maybe that would have been a better time to do this change?

And as countless people have suggested already, a daily honor cap would have been a much better solution to this sort of thing.

[Gourmand]

Paladin, meet dispel magic. I use that on my horde priest all the time in WSG on paladins. It's quite amusing to see that paladin's reaction when he figures out his easy escape is suddenly missing.


And for people saying that various BGs favor sides, it's really a mental thing more than anything else. I've found that certain bg clusters have people that are more defeatists, which is why I moved my characters over to whatever cluster moonrunner/greymane is on, because it's pretty much a 50/50 split in any battleground.

Any class can wand/attack a totem (conveniently, with /target totem, /use wand macro's too!)

Two classes can dispel BoF, and BoF can get burried beneath a myriad of other trivial buffs. Hunter traps are also available to both sides, and far more functional than the earth bind totem. The horde doesn't have a class that can provide the same functionality as BoF.

I think this victory goes to paladins. I think the point stands that you don't have any real control over what the other side has and you don't. You can still be a successful team, you just have to play to your strengths. I imagine assist trains on Horde are a lot more fun with shamans. Capping nodes in AB is a lot easier with a warrior + windfury as well. I think the WSG example shows a definite slant on alliance superiority.

Neither scenario is undefeatable like the pubbies would have you believe, but there is at least some truth to the generalization, imo.

[Jason Cross]

I do think they should have just lowered it a bit – say 5% instead of 30%.

I think they should have raised prices 30%. Right now, it's the equivalent of raising prices 42%. (30% less honor earned means you have to get 42% more to pay the same price)

Not only would a 30% price hike been less of a nerf, but it would have helped to balance out the honor/token problem. You already get more tokens relative to the prices compared to honor, and they only made that worse.

Of course, I still love the new system and the prices seem fine. I'm doing BGs right now. My only gripe is that in the level 60 BGs, you can get some HORRIBLY mismatched groups. And in WSG and especially AB, it seems more common than not.

[Athryn]

Two classes can dispel BoF, and BoF can get burried beneath a myriad of other trivial buffs. Hunter traps are also available to both sides, and far more functional than the earth bind totem. The horde doesn't have a class that can provide the same functionality as BoF.

Every time I've dispelled BoF, it's been the first buff removed, even with a highly buffed paladin (and yes, I've done detect magic on them with a friendly mage.) The main problem is that most priests don't even think to use Dispel Magic offensively.

The horde can provide the same functionaity as BoF by buying free action potions, which I see used rather often in WSG.


Besides, all this "paladins have this, shamans have that" whining will be going away within weeks after Burning Crusade goes live, as Paladins and Shamans level up on the opposing sides. I know I'll be leveling one, as I've really enjoyed playing one in the Beta.

[DeepT]

I wish they would consider server vs server PvP groups so they coulld at they very least drastically reduce the BG wait times.

[garin]

I wish they would consider server vs server PvP groups so they coulld at they very least drastically reduce the BG wait times.

Didn't they already do that?

[Stroker Ace]

Yeah, that was the big draw of patch 1.12.