James Kim and family missing

[Lunch of Kong]

He's not one of us, apparently. In this case, I think it's his loss, and not ours.

[quatoria]

The worst fucking part of that link to the path graphics, found on one of the pages:

"Looking north at the junction of County Road 23 and Bear Camp Road. James Kim intended to take the left fork and continue west on County Road 23(yellow line). Instead, he made a wrong turn onto Bear Camp Road(blue line). A vandal broke the lock on the gate that would have prevented vehicles from using the road."

If it hadn't been for one person's act of thoughtless fucking vandalism, this whole thing might never have occurred. It's hard not to wonder what that asshole would think, if he knew how much suffering his prank caused - and hard not to wonder how many other lives, every day, are destroyed by such incredibly minor things. Jesus.

[RepoMan]

Another article I read said that law enforcement is now looking for the vandal who cut that lock.

I would also not be at all surprised if the guy who did it already has realized that this is all his fault (or at least it would definitely not have occurred the same way without his action), and is either fucked up with guilt or shitting bricks that he'll be caught, or both. Not sure whether they could pin a manslaughter charge on him, but certainly something heavier than vandalism could be made to stick....

Fuck, he might even get turned in by someone he knows, since the Kims have gotten so much sympathy (and rightly so).

[SlyFrog]

Another article I read said that law enforcement is now looking for the vandal who cut that lock.

I would also not be at all surprised if the guy who did it already has realized that this is all his fault (or at least it would definitely not have occurred the same way without his action), and is either fucked up with guilt or shitting bricks that he'll be caught, or both. Not sure whether they could pin a manslaughter charge on him, but certainly something heavier than vandalism could be made to stick....

Fuck, he might even get turned in by someone he knows, since the Kims have gotten so much sympathy (and rightly so).

You know, I'm not sure that anyone who wouldn't ordinarily advocate extremely harsh penalties for petty crimes like vandalism, etc. should be hopping on the bandwagon to fry whoever did this. I'm not sure it is right to go nuts over something like this because of an outcome that realistically would be pretty damn hard to foresee.

I'm going to leave it be. This thread has been mostly good. I feel sorry for a family that lost its father, and for someone who did his best to save his family. That's about all the further I hope this goes.

[quatoria]

If somebody commits an act of vandalism - or any other criminal act - and that act directly leads to a death, I can't think of a scenario in which I wouldn't be in favor of trying to hit them with involuntary manslaughter. I'm sure somebody will come up with some outlandish bullshit jaywalking or music burning = death, but that's just the charm of qt3.

[Jojo]

Whatever the penalty, its a great way of showing an example of why vandalism isn't just "$20 for some other guy to fix a broken padlock", it can actually lead to shitty things happening. Of course, my guess is that the kind of people who do this, couldn't really give a shit about anyone else anyway.

[Desslock]

I'm tellin' ya: he was destined to be the King of No Pants.

Jesus, what a social misfit.

[Backov]

Ya, good luck finding some guy in Oregon who broke a padlock.

[walTer]

--already brought up---

this whole thing is just fucked-and it could have happend to anyone....

[nabeel]

I'm late, but very sad news indeed. Condolences to his family and friends.

[Kyle Wilson]

The Lessons in My Son's Death, by Spencer Kim

[SpoofyChop]

I think I may risk offending some people here since there will be many deeply felt views, but as someone that took this story very very much to heart I wanted to comment on this article.

I find it unfortunate that the apparent primary reaction from Mr. Kim is one that calls for laws and regulations to improve investigative and rescue efforts. This is, I believe, the wrong message to take away from this story. The message that I took from it is that there is simply no substitute for a moderate amount of preparation and knowledge whenever you travel.

Over the New Year's weekend my wife and I and my two young daughters (4 and 3) traveled to Vermont. Now Vermont is a very different place than Oregon. Although the terrain is somewhat mountainous and the state is rural in many places, I don't think there was a single moment that we were more than a few hundred yards away from assistance. Regardless of the difference though, before we left I created a very basic survival kit that included a knife, a multitool, fire starting equipment, rope, a tarp, additional emergency food and water, a compass, a whistle, and a several other things recommended on various basic survival web pages. We also purchased sleeping bags and we took very warm snow apparel. I also bought and read a survival guide and familiarized myself with some basic concepts. All of this gear is in a plastic container that is going to remain in our van at all times.

Unlike the Kims, I don't think there is any way we could possibly have ended up in a life threatening situation on this particular trip. But I think the point that people ought to take away from this tradgedy is that there is simply no substitute for preparedness regardless of how close to assistance you may be. If by some chance we had found ourselves in trouble, the equipment we brought could have made a huge difference.

While I have a tremendous amount of respect for the entire Kim family and Mr. Kim specifically (the fact that he was able to bring about the rescue of his daughter-in-law and grand daughters largely by his own effort and resources is unbelievably commendable and worthy of deep respect) I simply can't agree that the primary lesson here is one for politicians.

While some of the measures Mr. Kim is suggesting are probably worthwhile, I firmly believe that no amount of regulations and federal laws will ever replace personal preparation and knowledge.

[fuzzyslug]

Spoofy, let's be fair, though. Unlike most rantings you here from the relatives of the deceased, Mr. Kim's message was both articulate and reasonable:

Monitor dangerous roadways. Sounds like a good idea.

Improve communication, probably the biggest barrier in any rescue effort and any effort that requires different pieces of the government to interact. This is probably his best point. I'm sure we can do some things to help other types of rescue efforts while we are at it.

Get the fucking media out of the way. I can't argue with that.

All this sounds pretty good to me.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I think I may risk offending some people here since there will be many deeply felt views, but as someone that took this story very very much to heart I wanted to comment on this article.

I find it unfortunate that the apparent primary reaction from Mr. Kim is one that calls for laws and regulations to improve investigative and rescue efforts. This is, I believe, the wrong message to take away from this story. The message that I took from it is that there is simply no substitute for a moderate amount of preparation and knowledge whenever you travel.

Over the New Year's weekend my wife and I and my two young daughters (4 and 3) traveled to Vermont. Now Vermont is a very different place than Oregon. Although the terrain is somewhat mountainous and the state is rural in many places, I don't think there was a single moment that we were more than a few hundred yards away from assistance. Regardless of the difference though, before we left I created a very basic survival kit that included a knife, a multitool, fire starting equipment, rope, a tarp, additional emergency food and water, a compass, a whistle, and a several other things recommended on various basic survival web pages. We also purchased sleeping bags and we took very warm snow apparel. I also bought and read a survival guide and familiarized myself with some basic concepts. All of this gear is in a plastic container that is going to remain in our van at all times.

Unlike the Kims, I don't think there is any way we could possibly have ended up in a life threatening situation on this particular trip. But I think the point that people ought to take away from this tradgedy is that there is simply no substitute for preparedness regardless of how close to assistance you may be. If by some chance we had found ourselves in trouble, the equipment we brought could have made a huge difference.

While I have a tremendous amount of respect for the entire Kim family and Mr. Kim specifically (the fact that he was able to bring about the rescue of his daughter-in-law and grand daughters largely by his own effort and resources is unbelievably commendable and worthy of deep respect) I simply can't agree that the primary lesson here is one for politicians.

While some of the measures Mr. Kim is suggesting are probably worthwhile, I firmly believe that no amount of regulations and federal laws will ever replace personal preparation and knowledge.

Nor surmount simple, but harsh, bad luck. I agree. Some sentiments expressed earlier in this thread lead me to believe people think the entire continental US is blanketed with a tight security grid, and anyone, anywhere, can be located and extracted inside of a few hours. That's hardly the case, obviously. A call to improving rescue efforts by Mr. Kim smacks of finger-pointing, but the man is grieving, so I'll leave him be on that. Too bad the media won't.

[Gary Whitta]

I can't believe that thing about the media airplanes. I mean I believe it, I just am amazed it was allowed. I get really annoyed every time media obtrusion actually has an impact on the story they are covering, as with the OJ trial and that ridiculous Geraldo "here's where the US troops are" incident.

[TimElhajj]

We were in Portland just before Christmas and I was suprised at what is being discussed as a botched rescue response. I was too broken up by the Kim story so I didn't follow the controversy story that closely, but it was big and it sounded as if they were looking for heads to roll.

[Rimbo]

I think I may risk offending some people here since there will be many deeply felt views, but as someone that took this story very very much to heart I wanted to comment on this article.

Spoofy, I may not be a card-carrying Libertarian, but I'm someone who normally would agree with every point you've made. In fact, I was all ready to type out an article agreeing with you; it sure wouldn't be the first time that government waste and civil liberties would be curtailed because someone needed to Think Of The Children.

Then, I read Spencer Kim's letter.

1. The logging road gate and the FAA restrictions: All Kim's saying is that existing laws should have been enforced. Can't argue with that; the logging road is supposed to be locked, and the travel restrictions are set up, for just this purpose. This is a case of people failing to do their jobs.

2. Privacy laws and policies. We've got a bevy of new ones on our hands lately. Spencer agrees with them in principle; he's just asking for a minor tweak so that, when relatives go missing, it doesn't take four days just to figure out that they're missing. That's appalling. New laws are going to introduce new problems; it's not whining to insist that those problems be fixed when they're brought to light. (Same goes for the cell phone records.)

3. Train and coordinate rescue teams better. This is probably the most frustrating thing for Spencer Kim, and simultaneously the hardest one to do right. It's tough to get funding for team training because you never see the need until you have an emergency. And emergencies tend to breed chaos. You expect the rescue workers to be properly trained and coordinated, but it's difficult to do in the chaos of republican democracy.

So he's got two issues where people should have done their jobs and didn't, two issues where new laws are showing their flaws, and one issue that I can possibly imagine a problem with.

[Enidigm]

One thing i should point out is that forest service logging roads are about one step up from an ATV trail. It's not as if these are well maintained county roads. Many forest logging roads are in areas that are inactive and have not been logged in some time. Most topo maps have these logging roads because they're often 40-50 years old. However they still maintained to be at least debris free by the forest service, as they are wide, flat, and with a gentle grade, and are popular trail roads with ATV and other moterized off road recreation. But one would have to be ... unfamiliar with the "country" or national forests to choose to drive on such a road, even if it was on the map, with a commuter car. They're far worse than unpaved county roads and only suitable, when in good condition, for 4wd trucks and ATVs. I mean, i got stuck once in a Toyota Celica out in a turn row of a farm, in less than 3 inches of sand.

And i don't really understand whey they didn't just walk out. I hate to say this because it sounds cruel or insensitive. Even with children, it's easy to walk 15-20 miles. When i saw that he was only 5 miles into the mountains i sighed.

Another thing was that he burned his tires but didn't light a signal fire. Walk to the top of a mountain, light the topmost tree. Fire spotters are suprisingly posted in small numbers everywhere in national forests. Of course you'd probably get in trouble if you did this at a time other than winter, but it's worth it if it's saving your and your families' lives.

Another possible protective measure is OnStar. Poo poo American cars, but OnStar is actually a pretty sweet if expensive service, since it's actually a GPS tracking service, and not just a receiver. It really needs to have a built in Satellite phone receiver and not just a cell carrier.

[Alan Dunkin]

TSG, you are very correct about USFS logging roads - for normal people, they suck. What's worse, from what I remember, it was a clearly marked logging road. You don't take logging roads normally, and you especially don't take them in winter. You can't monitor these on a regular basis, there are far too many. And you're not even supposed to be on them in the winter, that's a big no-no. Maps have them marked "do not take in winter" for obvious reasons.

However, your note on fire spotters would be correct - if it was the summer. Unfortunately, you're practically in the shoulder of fall and winter along the Oregon coast, which means potentially all-day cold rain and potentially lots of snow. Not only is the chance of fire slim, the chance of someone watching out for it in those conditions is slimmer. And starting a fire with cold, wet fuels would be extremely hard.

That being said, they were able to start the tire fire, it could be quite easy to get a lot of smoke going as you can use the forest fuels with your tire fire to create a lot of smoke.

Search and rescue is an incredibly hard thing to do, especially if you're dealing with multiple local, state and federal jurisdictions, agencies, various external pressures, and set in motion from nearly scratch. Creating new laws and other nonsense isn't going to help, it'll hinder the process. Make more funding available towards the beginning of the process rather than the middle or end, that will help.

--- Alan

[Michael Fortson]

TSG, you are very correct about USFS logging roads - for normal people, they suck. What's worse, from what I remember, it was a clearly marked logging road.

My understanding was at the junction where they turned onto it, the logging road is wider than the highway, and people turning up onto it in a snowstorm is a regular occurrence.

[FIDGAF]

Around here, in NY, there are a lot of roads that are closed for part of the season. There's usually signs posted to notify the public of the dates that the road is closed, etc. A simple sign posted along the road seems pretty cheap but might have saved this family from the suffering they are experiencing.

I don't think that Mr. Kim's criticism is out of line at all. This was preventable and if things had happened with the concept of "Emergency" in mind he very well might still be alive. He sounds frustrated at the system and not only points out the flaws but recommends what needs to be changed so that this doesn't happen again to someone else. Kudos to him for being even minded even while grieving the death of his son.

Four days to confirm that someone is missing. Think about what a difference that would have made to the rescue. Surely he was alive four days before they found the family. He has a valid set of points and argument. They found them in about two days after everyone actually mobilized. This didn't have to happen like this at all.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Around here, in NY, there are a lot of roads that are closed for part of the season. There's usually signs posted to notify the public of the dates that the road is closed, etc. A simple sign posted along the road seems pretty cheap but might have saved this family from the suffering they are experiencing.

You said "usually." Do you know why you said "usually?" Because you can't in truth says "always." Lots of roads out there. Signs on them everywhere would, in theory, be a good idea. But you know what happens? Bills for funding on them get voted down in local elections, or appropriate funding isn't even made available. Or even really is available, for all the man-hours, logistics, upkeep, etc.

I don't think that Mr. Kim's criticism is out of line at all. This was preventable and if things had happened with the concept of "Emergency" in mind he very well might still be alive. He sounds frustrated at the system and not only points out the flaws but recommends what needs to be changed so that this doesn't happen again to someone else. Kudos to him for being even minded even while grieving the death of his son.

That's your opinion. Mine is, finger-pointing and blame-laying is common during the grieving process, and it is often irrational or conflated. Also, it dovetails nicely into the conventional wisdom of this country, that nothing is an accident nor one's own fault. He drove up into the mountains during a blizzard. He got lost. He left his car. Three unwise actions, and at that point, you just have to hope for some luck. They got none. It's not incompetence on the part of rescue efforts, it's merely within the limits of what they can realistically achieve.

Four days to confirm that someone is missing. Think about what a difference that would have made to the rescue. Surely he was alive four days before they found the family. He has a valid set of points and argument. They found them in about two days after everyone actually mobilized. This didn't have to happen like this at all.

What would be acceptable? You have to realize people who "go missing" aren't technically missing at time zero. If we mobilized search and rescue teams as soon as people are presumed missing with no grace period...well, there wouldn't have been anyone available to start looking for Kim and his family. I think you need to remember it was during a monster blizzard, and although Kim's plight got all the press, the chances of him being the only person in danger, potential or otherwise, it essentially impossible. People are acting like the Kim family was the only person or persons who had some form of emergency or presumed emergency in that area at that time. It was a blizzard.

[SpoofyChop]

This is an article about the Kims that also has a stunning story about a guy that got lost on Bear Camp Road in 1994.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG75MRTTA1.DTL

It doesn't seem likely to me that additional laws would necessarily have saved him either, although keeping somebody informed of his route and schedule probably would have. And extra laws won't save a family that gets lost or stuck that doesn't own a cell phone or use credit cards.

My original point was really not to be critical of Mr. Kim's suggestions. Like I said, some of them are probably worthwhile. My point is simply that if everybody in the country learned a lesson about planning and preparedness it probably save more lives than if a few people in congress pass laws that may or may not have a beneficial impact on rescue efforts.

I would be far more interested in seeing a law passed that mandates basic survival training in high schools as part of the driver's ed. curriculum or something.

[Rimbo]

I would be far more interested in seeing a law passed that mandates basic survival training in high schools as part of the driver's ed. curriculum or something.

We used to have this; it was called the Boy Scouts. Then some folks decided they didn't want those horrible Christian influences in our schools.

[AndrewM]

Well, part of that is that some folks decided they didn't want those horrible homosexual influences in our troops.

[Rimbo]

True that.

[Enidigm]

However, your note on fire spotters would be correct - if it was the summer. Unfortunately, you're practically in the shoulder of fall and winter along the Oregon coast, which means potentially all-day cold rain and potentially lots of snow. Not only is the chance of fire slim, the chance of someone watching out for it in those conditions is slimmer. And starting a fire with cold, wet fuels would be extremely hard.
--- Alan

Such would be logic. But is it reality? I actually visited a fire-tower in the Sacramento mountains in sothern New Mexico, and was suprised by a voice coming from the apparently unoccupied tower accosting us to come up. She serenaded us with her version of "Smokey the Bear" and gave us pictures of her family. Apparently fire spotters are a lifestyle more than a job, and actually live in these towers almost full time - one of those thankless low paying jobs that are so necessary for the smooth running of our national parks and (by extention, the country). Anyway, she apparently lived in Oregon at some point and was showing me pictures of snow covered forests from the tower. So,... i don't really know if they're manned during wintertime or not.

[Rob_Merritt]

We used to have this; it was called the Boy Scouts. Then some folks decided they didn't want those horrible Christian influences in our schools.

Boy scouts aren't christian, they are Mormon

[Enidigm]

Boy scouts aren't christian, they are Mormon

Isn't someone supposed to say here that the Boy Scouts were inspired and based off of German proto-Nazi ideals? There was some German philosopher/idealist that Nazis and the Boy Scouts had in common, but this is some corrupted memory i have from some sort of sensationalist TV expose.

[Dirt]

So many things went wrong. If James Kim had stayed with his family, they'd all have been rescued. Sometimes, it's just your time.