Reply With QuoteI always wanted to know if you could just copy files over to a DVD-RW like to a hard disk. From your description it sounds like you have to use some disk imaging program anyway, just as with the old DVD-R format?
I know zippo about DVD burning - I was always under the impression that a DVD-RW was just something you could use to back up files to a DVD like an extra hard drive or something, and don't really understand what it means that you have to create an image, mount the drive, etc.
Uh, so a bunch of what I think are probably pretty basic questions for you guys:
Background - I have a Pioneer DVD-R/RW CD-R/RW OEM drive (model DVR-AO5U). I basically want to do 2 things: (a) back up data files, so I basically have a disaster recovery system for my word documents, and (b) there's a bunch of TV shows that I can't get in Canada so I download 'em (WPT Poker on the Travel network, ESPN's World Series of Poker Coverage, and BBC's Doctor Who!) and I'd like to burn copes of the AVI files to DVDs so I can watch them in my living room on my DVD player (which plays DIVX/MPEG/AVI, etc. files). I thought it would be as simple as drag/drop - guess not, huh?
Question:
1. I'm not even sure what disks I need. My OEM burner manual says DVD-R, high speed DVD-R, DVD-RW, and high-speed DVD-RW. So the best choice is to pick up a pack of DVD-RW disks, right? I've also seen DVD+RW (DVD+rewritable) disks - is that something different that wouldn't work on mine - the same company was also selling DVD-RW (DVD re-recordable) so I guess they're different?
2. My burner came with InterVideo WinDVD suite, which I booted up but didn't really understand (ulp!) - there's no just "format disk" and "copy files" options? I have to instead "import movie" and then burn it to disk? Why do I have to change its format to DVD? Can't I just move it as an AVI and burn that? What about data files?
3. I messed around and burned an episode of Doctor Who which seemed to work, although I think the sound was dispersed to all the channels which made some of the voices hard to hear. Better way of doing transferring the audio, or are you basically out of luck if you convert an AVI? Similarly, I think the original file was widescreen, and when it was converted it was squished into standard screen size, and I couldn't see an option to prevent that?
4. When you burn something and it asks for a "format", with the following choices - VCD, SVCD, DVD (1 hour), DVD (2 hours), DVD+RW, DVD-RW...uh, what are the differences/why are there 2 DVD choices, and a DVD+RW? If I don't pick DVD+RW, does that mean I won't be able to rewrite the disk again, even if it's a RW disk? It also asks for PAL/NTSC - I know NTSC is the NA standard and Pal the UK, etc., but does it really matter if you're burning a disk? I think my DVD player plays both, is one better ? Since one of the shows is from the UK, is PAL more relevant? I presume I just pick NTSC, but am really kinda lost with this stuff.
5. I get an error sometimes when I start saying there's not enough room in the temporary directory, even though I have about 6 gigs on my HD? I don't understand this...
6. When I want to erase, re-record, do I just redo the process, or do I have to format it or something? I get a rendering error, is that because I chose the DVD option instead of DVD+RW?
Sorry for the lengthy message, but I'd appreciate any help you can give!
I always wanted to know if you could just copy files over to a DVD-RW like to a hard disk. From your description it sounds like you have to use some disk imaging program anyway, just as with the old DVD-R format?
No. It's + or - which is something to do with companie being difficult.Originally Posted by Desslock
Get a copy of Nero.2. My burner came with InterVideo WinDVD suite, which I booted up but didn't really understand (ulp!) - there's no just "format disk" and "copy files" options? I have to instead "import movie" and then burn it to disk? Why do I have to change its format to DVD? Can't I just move it as an AVI and burn that? What about data files?
http://www.doom9.org3. I messed around and burned an episode of Doctor Who which seemed to work, although I think the sound was dispersed to all the channels which made some of the voices hard to hear. Better way of doing transferring the audio, or are you basically out of luck if you convert an AVI? Similarly, I think the original file was widescreen, and when it was converted it was squished into standard screen size, and I couldn't see an option to prevent that?
The differences in the 1/2 hours is quality... I'm fairly sure you'd still be able to re-write on the disk even if you just chose those options.4. When you burn something and it asks for a "format", with the following choices - VCD, SVCD, DVD (1 hour), DVD (2 hours), DVD+RW, DVD-RW...uh, what are the differences/why are there 2 DVD choices, and a DVD+RW? If I don't pick DVD+RW, does that mean I won't be able to rewrite the disk again, even if it's a RW disk? It also asks for PAL/NTSC - I know NTSC is the NA standard and Pal the UK, etc., but does it really matter if you're burning a disk? I think my DVD player plays both, is one better ? Since one of the shows is from the UK, is PAL more relevant? I presume I just pick NTSC, but am really kinda lost with this stuff.
Depends where it's trying to copy the temp files to and also - some DVDs can take up 8 gig of space. (or maybe a bit more)5. I get an error sometimes when I start saying there's not enough room in the temporary directory, even though I have about 6 gigs on my HD? I don't understand this...
Yeh, probably - once again. Nero.6. When I want to erase, re-record, do I just redo the process, or do I have to format it or something? I get a rendering error, is that because I chose the DVD option instead of DVD+RW?
That's ok, it was still half the length of a standard Kitsune post. ;)Sorry for the lengthy message, but I'd appreciate any help you can give!
So you really need stuff like Nero? You can't just copy files to a DVD-RW with Explorer, erase them, update them, etc.?
The built-in imaging program in WinXP is based on Roxio's products.
It's possible to use successfully, but people have had more luck training
cats to not kill birds.
It's either Nero or WinDVD Suite with most burners these days. I have WDS
too, and I couldn't figure it out. Nero came with a previous version of one
of my recorders, and it's what I use on Windows. I shouldn't imagine the
stand-alone version of the software is very expensive, if you don't need the
fancy video and sound plugins.
If you're burning ever-changing backups, you can make on-the-fly images,
which skips the step of arranging a 4.36GB/8-point-whatever image.
The only drawback might be search-speed - files may be scattered all across
the disc if you have lots of small files, slowing down directory listing.
Burning software might have improved over the years, though. I'm just not
taking any chances. The packet-writing method involved when using a DVD
as a harddrive is definitely going to cause listings to be slow. I suggest
googling for a proper guide on it.
+/-: No real difference, unless you have some old hardware that refuses
to read one or the other. For example, a first generation DivX compatible
DVD/MP3 player that only reads DVD-R. I know that you can fake a flag on
DVD+R and mark it as DVD-ROM, which gets by some problems.
The price is the same for both types of media here. A recent DVD player
shouldn't care what you feed it (region, mediatype or weird variations on
MPEG2 made by a DVD standalone recorder).
I don't use the built in stuff for anything and I'm sure you're right. But I just wanted to mention that Roxios new for money stuff like Roxio creator 8 is pretty good and beats Nero on several fronts (but not all).
Using an optical drive like a removable Zip or floppy drive requires packet-writing software. Don't mess with it, it's the road to heartbreak.
You should be able to burn an ISO image with the files on it if your DVD player really supports DivX and AVI files. RTM for the DVD player to see if there's any filename or directory quirks you need to work around.Uh, so a bunch of what I think are probably pretty basic questions for you guys:
Background - I have a Pioneer DVD-R/RW CD-R/RW OEM drive (model DVR-AO5U). I basically want to do 2 things: (a) back up data files, so I basically have a disaster recovery system for my word documents, and (b) there's a bunch of TV shows that I can't get in Canada so I download 'em (WPT Poker on the Travel network, ESPN's World Series of Poker Coverage, and BBC's Doctor Who!) and I'd like to burn copes of the AVI files to DVDs so I can watch them in my living room on my DVD player (which plays DIVX/MPEG/AVI, etc. files). I thought it would be as simple as drag/drop - guess not, huh?
Rewritable DVD's cost quite a bit more. Your most economical option is DVD-R or DVD+R, which can be had for about $.30 a disk when buying in bulk. Also, your burner might be picky about what brands it likes or hates, experimenting is the only option. I've had good luck with Memorex lately, one of my burners absolutely hated TDK's, but the new one worked with them. Truly YMMV.Question:
1. I'm not even sure what disks I need. My OEM burner manual says DVD-R, high speed DVD-R, DVD-RW, and high-speed DVD-RW. So the best choice is to pick up a pack of DVD-RW disks, right? I've also seen DVD+RW (DVD+rewritable) disks - is that something different that wouldn't work on mine - the same company was also selling DVD-RW (DVD re-recordable) so I guess they're different?
Also, try to match the highest rated speed for your burner with the disks you're buying. 16x works best with 16x disks, a 2x burner may hate 8x disks.
Don't expect cheap no-name DVD's to maintain integrity for any length of time, even name-brand disks that pass data verification right after burning can develop errors later.
You won't be formatting a DVD-RW unless you're packet-writing. Really, really avoid that. Think of DVD's as collections of predetermined data thrown onto the disk all at one time.2. My burner came with InterVideo WinDVD suite, which I booted up but didn't really understand (ulp!) - there's no just "format disk" and "copy files" options? I have to instead "import movie" and then burn it to disk? Why do I have to change its format to DVD? Can't I just move it as an AVI and burn that? What about data files?
DVD-compatible files have to be in a certain format in directories with particular names. When a program like WinDVD suite wants to "import" the A/V files, it's planning to convert them into DVD format, i.e., file structure, data format, compression scheme. Video format conversion will almost always result in a loss of quality, and most software does a half-assed job at it.
Your frustrations are very common ones. Sound sync and handling of screen ratio are two of the biggest problems in converting AVIs.3. I messed around and burned an episode of Doctor Who which seemed to work, although I think the sound was dispersed to all the channels which made some of the voices hard to hear. Better way of doing transferring the audio, or are you basically out of luck if you convert an AVI? Similarly, I think the original file was widescreen, and when it was converted it was squished into standard screen size, and I couldn't see an option to prevent that?
VCD is MPEG on a CD, SVCD is MPEG2 on a CD. The playing times for DVD's refers to the level of compression you want to use, less compression, better quality and vice versa. Converting PAL to NTSC is problematic, if you can play it in its original format, so much the better. Some players can handle it, some can't; similarly, some TV's will balk at the 50Mhz referesh rate (NTSC uses 60Mhz). You will lose a little picture info at the top & bottom, the PAL picture is taller than the NTSC one.4. When you burn something and it asks for a "format", with the following choices - VCD, SVCD, DVD (1 hour), DVD (2 hours), DVD+RW, DVD-RW...uh, what are the differences/why are there 2 DVD choices, and a DVD+RW? If I don't pick DVD+RW, does that mean I won't be able to rewrite the disk again, even if it's a RW disk? It also asks for PAL/NTSC - I know NTSC is the NA standard and Pal the UK, etc., but does it really matter if you're burning a disk? I think my DVD player plays both, is one better ? Since one of the shows is from the UK, is PAL more relevant? I presume I just pick NTSC, but am really kinda lost with this stuff.
You can need up to twice the size of the DVD to do the conversion, due to the creation of temporary files, etc.5. I get an error sometimes when I start saying there's not enough room in the temporary directory, even though I have about 6 gigs on my HD? I don't understand this...
Rewritable DVDs can just be erased or overwritten by your burning software. the actual DVD format (DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW) should be invisible for purposes of burning and playing.6. When I want to erase, re-record, do I just redo the process, or do I have to format it or something? I get a rendering error, is that because I chose the DVD option instead of DVD+RW?
Check out www.videohelp.com for more tehnical info than you'll ever want or need.Sorry for the lengthy message, but I'd appreciate any help you can give!
If you don't want to spend money, a good freeware solution is CD Burner XP Pro 3 (works with DVD's as well), which you can find here: http://www.snapfiles.com/get/cdburnerxp.html
If you're not doing anything super fancy it'll do the job.
Other people look like they are covering your bases, but I will stress one thing above all others: don't get into the trap of trying to use CDs or DVDs like hard drives, USB thumbdrives or flopppies.
The programs that let you drag files back and forth, and generally do all the normal explorer stuff on a DVD, will soon mire you in pain and misery. This stuff is slow, runs weird nasty hacky shit on your computer so that windows can write and erase packets to optical media on the fly, and will murder your pets.
Think of all CD-like media as a one-way write-only system: use the ReWritable ones simply as "erasable" ones.
The other part of your problem is the bazaar of data formats and file systems and such-and-such that makes it a chore to make your own DVDs and the like. A paid-for copy of Nero or Roxio will abstract all that crap out for you. But it seems like you've got that far: just experiment and find what works for you. I hate that crap myself, but the alternative is using all sorts of complicated permanent-alpha freeware trash that will only foist further suffering on you. So leave it all to Nero.
But for basic backup needs, you should just be able to plop in your DVD, have it come up as a blank window in explorer, drag and drop then click "Burn", all in exlorer. That basic functionality is there by default.
CD Burner XP Pro 3 is pretty good freeware crap.
Hey, I've never used it, and it sounds like it does the job of technology-soup abstraction well, so that could be a great first port of call.
The freeware horrors of which I speak are the command-line stuff or the incomprehensible GUI stuff where each app does one thing (file conversion, convert to DVD file structure, backup a DVD etc) and you have to sequence together everything just so to get the result you want. The problem is that the desire for perfection led me into the thicket, so I want to warm others away from that which I have escaped.
The internet is chock full of people saying stuff like "Screw Nero! Nero sucks! Use fffffmpegavi to transliterate the original file, taking care to ensure the d-search coefficient is naturalized and the preinterlaced splines are set to 27.775 frames per gerund (also use version 0.67a, not 67b, as b introductes a bug that causes stochastic image bleed), this should produce a compliant .FU file that can then be converted to DVD format with avi3dvd on the command line, which will take 2 hours and then crash, then do it again with --a set and you can finally burn with burn2dvd.exe, noting that it only works if you sacrifice three chickens. But whatever you do, DON'T USE NERO!"
Last edited by Rob Beschizza; 05-03-2006 at 09:18 AM.
Well, that sucks. Why doesn't anyone make a big optical disk that can be used like a normal mounted drive?
I speak only from personal experience. Maybe there is a great one out there. But I remember getting my first CD burner and it came with software that let you do this and it was horrible.
Then when I upgraded to a DVD burner, there was something similar with that that supposedly let you use DVD-RW disks "JUST LIKE FLOPPIES WITH THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE STORAGE!" and it completely soured my on DVDs as a storage format for months because nothing ever worked and I assumed it was an inherent crappiness of the technology.
Finally, I bought a set-top DVD recorder to replace a dying VCR, and it was absolutely dreadful. It would take 10 seconds to stard recording and up to 5 minutes to stop recording, and could never finalize disks properly, and I could just sense through the Force that it was because it was using the same ghastly hacked techniques to try and treat optical media like magnetic media. The same odd slurping spinny noises from the machine repeating themselves over and over again. The same periods of total silence from the drive persisting for what seemed like minutes, as if I was listening to BBC Radio 3, ending with the sudden resumption of the slurping spinny noises. Eventual success: maybe, maybe.
So maybe these experiences are uncommon, but I am permanently down on optical media as for anything other than "write" or "erase all and write" use. And yeah, while this may limit the possibilities, it also limits the risk of a stroke.
Rob, CD Burner XP Pro 3 has a very Nero-like interface. Try it, it's only a 10MB download. (In contrast to the now-bloated Nero that I used to use.)
Magneto-optical drives used to fill that role, but it seems like they've mostly died out. The additional tolerances and tricks needed to make them Not Suck like regular CD-RW/DVD-RWs usually meant that they had lower capacities and more expensive media and drives, and people didn't really want to have to buy anything beyond the CD/DVD drive they already had.
On the other hand, I suggest a modded Xbox running Xbox Media Center in your living room. With this, you can bypass the "converting avi" step, since XBMC will play practically anything (avi, mkv, ogm, rm, mpg, ...). Now, all you have to do is burn your .avi onto a DVD as a computer file, then bring the DVD+-R(W) over and load it in the Xbox, and voila! (XBMC has on-the-fly aspect ratio adjustments, as well.)
The only drawback is that different Xbox models support different media. So you might get one that can't read any CDR or CDRW, or can't read DVD-RW but can read DVD-R or DVD+R(W). Something like that.
Also, you can hook this Xbox up to your LAN, and XMBC can see your other Windows shared folders (with some setup)! So you don't even have to burn DVDs anymore. What do you think of that?
Hey, I think I tried to follow those instructions when I was messing with DVD freeware. It can sometimes lead to a fragile workflow that produces something. Sometimes.
Yeah, good software to abstract that crap away is worth the money. I'm a fan of Roxio's Toast.
This is all really informative - thank you Rick, nutsak, Evlm, Rob and everyone else etc. for the great responses.
I do know for sure that my DVD player is capable of playing DIVX/AVIs (I bought it, in part, for that purpose, and have played 'em on it). So transferring files directly in that format would be helpful, since they take less space and you don't get artifacting from the conversion process.
I don't mind paying for decent commercial software if it makes things easier, or has additional features that I'll actually use. Which is better - the Nero one or Roxio's (Easy Media Creator 8)?
It sounds like using DVD's for backup of data isn't the greatest idea or option. I don't really need to use 'em for that purpose, as I can back up to portable HDs and other computers on my home LAN, so the main purpose of burning would probably be to watch TV shows on my DVD player in my living room.
Too many acronyms for me, heh. What does it mean to take an ISO image? And what's RTM? I think AVIs (and certainly DIVX files) play fine on my DVD player though.
ISO - international standard organization (rickh skipped the part of your post where you said you had no idea what iso images were)
RTM - read the manual
so what does it mean to burn an ISO image, as opposed to just cut/pasting or moving files? Doesn't work that way, because you have to just essentially "print" a copy of what exists?
That was kinda the purpose of DVD-RAM, but it never really took off outside specialized hardware (DVD-based camcorders and video recorders, mainly). DVD+RW supports random write access (meaning you can add or delete data without erasing the whole disc or resorting to non-standard packet writing crap), but it isn't as versatile as DVD-RAM or magneto-optical media.
An "ISO image" is a bit-by-bit representation of a CD or DVD.
An ISO image is the whole deal, every last binary bit, from the first twinkling molecule of reflective surface to the last. It includes not only the files, but all the invisible stuff like how the data is organized. This is important because just burning through the desktop means the operating system will format the disk and write to it in a manner to its own satisfaction, which often isn't what you want when making, say, a DVD that will work in any old DVD player.
An ISO is the files, the filing system and the filing cabinet all ready to go. Get your iso, click and burn and play. When you just cut and paste to the disk in explorer or whatever, you only see the files you're using. You can have more control, e.g. with Nero Burning Rom's advanced user interface, which lets you specify all this stuff. But that's Work. That's stuff that needs to be figured out and done right.
Of course, your clever avi-playing DVD player might be just fine with whatever you give it, including drag-n-drop pc-formatted dvds burned with Windows' built-in burner (my $30 walmart dealie is). However, the basic DVD spec calls for the disk to be set up just so. A good general way of making sure the disk is set up just so is to make sure the OS or burning software doesn't get to make its own decisions when burning a disk. Give it an ISO, and it's like saying "Listen up, computer. I don't want any of your shit. I don't want you to ask me if this should be FAT-16 or FAT-32 or if it should allow long names or any of that shit. Fuck that shit. Just burn the ISO, it's all in there. Everything. All of it. And do it now, bitch, before I deallocate your fucking table, you fucking fuck!"
I love Rob's Tech Support posts. That is all!
Uh, so how do I do that?
Do you know how to burn a CD using Nero or similar? Just like that, except with a DVD-R. Just be aware your DVD drive will not write to DVD+Rs or DVD+RWs. DVD-Rs and DVD-RWs are the way to go.
Desslock,
You can download a trial version of Nero 7 for free from www.nero.com.
I have been a bit glib, it seems: it differs from software to software, and it's sometimes not as easy as just opening up the disk in windows, dropping in the files and choosing Burn.
That CDBurner XP Pro software recommended above makes it super easy. I just installed it, and on running it has the option of burning a plain data DVD right at top of a short list. Selecting it brings up a windows pane for dragging and dropping files, with a nice obvious "burn" icon.
Nero is also easy: open Nero StartSmart, choose "Make Data DVD", and the pane comes up. Start drag and dropping your files, then click Next, then click Burn.
Basically, find the equivalent function in your software to make a plain data DVD, and just add the avi files all by themselves, then start the burn. That CD BurnerXP pro looks good, though, and is free. Not tested it yet myself, however.
Try this: put in a blank DVD. Does a little options window pop up asking you what to do? If it doesn't, try finding the DVD under My Computer, right clicking it, and selecting autoplay. You should then get a box. Hopefully, your software will have added an "open disk for burning files" option of some kind. Regrettably, Windows' own "open writable folder" doesn't do the job for me: I have to use Nero's equivalent when I go this way.
If your player advertises that it can read avi files (divx and xvid are merely different compression formats that almost invariably are used inside the avi "container"), then that strongly implies that the thing can deal with standard data dvds, as there's pretty much no other sane way to get an avi file onto a disk apart from burning it as described above.
If nothing here works, gently set your DVD peripherals on the floor, shriek at them until tears of impotent fury dry on your cheeks and your throat cries for water, drink lots of scotch and go away until the technology is mature and commoditized. USB hard drives are a nice alternative for backups.
Last edited by Rob Beschizza; 05-03-2006 at 10:51 PM.
Thanks, guys -- sorry I'm such a retard with this stuff. Even though I've been a computer hardware guy in terms of building gaming PCs since forever, this stuff is completely foreign to me - I really appreciate all the help.
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