A Song of Ice and Fire

[Adam B]

If the groupthink is wrong in hating Melanie Rawn, then I don't want to be right. (also, I swear I'm not trying to stalk Athryn in this subforum, she just says things that I can't resist snarking about! Aagh!)

Also, no love for Glen Cook's The Black Company? You all suck ;) Bakker's Prince of Nothing is great (if a bit odd with the sex stuff from time to time), but the first book of the sequel trilogy left me a little cold.

[Tim James]

The nerdraging about Martin owing us anything is not only pathetic, it's misguided, selfish, and stupid. Martin owes you nothing, assholes. You're upset because you're disappointed. Saying that Martin (or any creator) owes anyone anything is ridiculous and wrong. I don't care if he'd promised with his own blood for a new novel every two years, he still doesn't owe you shit. Lucas owes you shit. Spielberg owes you shit. Nobody owes you anything.

I'm disappointed, too. I think Martin is lazy and I wish like hell he'd deliver on the promise of the first three books. But that's all ME. That MY problem, and it's yours, too. You can live with disappointment or you can write ridiculous screeds on the internet and get all bent out of shape over someone who owes you nothing.

Martin can write Westeros cookbooks for the remainder of his life, and if you're not happy with it, you've got some adjusting to the world to do.

Okay, but you still owe me that 10 bucks.

[DoomMunky]

DAMMIT

[Mike O'Malley]

If the groupthink is wrong in hating Melanie Rawn, then I don't want to be right. (also, I swear I'm not trying to stalk Athryn in this subforum, she just says things that I can't resist snarking about! Aagh!)

Also, no love for Glen Cook's The Black Company? You all suck ;) Bakker's Prince of Nothing is great (if a bit odd with the sex stuff from time to time), but the first book of the sequel trilogy left me a little cold.

I tried to read Melanie Rawn's Sunrunners trilogy on a trans-Atlantic flight and...couldn't. I'd rather stare out the window at night.

The first book of Aspect-Emperor, on the other hand, was awesome. Several new slants on the original characters and the Moria setpiece was superb.

[John Reynolds]

Anyone try Daniel Abraham's Long Price Quartet yet? I just finished the 3rd book and it's not a bad series.

[Ergo]

I don't get the love for The Name of the Wind either, I thought it was very dull in both content and writing.

I think you would be well-served by just avoiding the fantasy genre entirely. It's a win-win for everyone.

[Stepsongrapes]

For all those tired of run-of-the-mill fantasy, I recommend my usual prescription (some already mentioned here):

Steven Brust, Guy Gavriel Kay, Jack Vance (The Dying Earth), China Mieville.

More on the sci-fi of things, but with a lot of fantasy elements: May's Saga of Pliocene Exile.

[Dave Markell]

More on the sci-fi of things, but with a lot of fantasy elements: May's Saga of Pliocene Exile.

Love that one. It's a close runner-up to Tolkien for my "most often read series" award.

[John Reynolds]

The Pliocene Exile series rocks, massively fun read. I remember buying the first in paperback back in 1983, mainly due to the cover art (sucker for Whelan's work) at the mall bookstore before going to see Return of the Jedi for the umpteenth time. Almost didn't make it past the first 100 pages, but once the cast of characters was through the gateway the book really took off. A real shame her Galactic Milieu trilogy was such a huge letdown.

[Stepsongrapes]

Almost didn't make it past the first 100 pages, but once the cast of characters was through the gateway the book really took off.

I'm pretty sure that's why the author included that prelude with the Ship. Without that bit to whet the appetite, the pre-Pliocene bits would be even more of a slog.

Agreed on Milieu sucking in comparison. I much prefer Brin's vision of a Galactic civ.

[Tyjenks]

If only we had a "Recommend me some fantasy books" thread***.
















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[Diana Baba]

Pliocene saga is a pure delight. Avoid her Boreal Moon series at all costs.

[Shadarr]

What other books have you read? Looking at the list I posted above, I'd say Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing is great by any standard, whether you're looking for thought-provoking literature or entertaining action.

He writes terrible battles, that are simultaneously boring and confusing. He basically provides a post-battle report about what happened to a host of people with really similar names who are never given any depth to make them identifiable, yet alone interesting. And the overall plot of the trilogy lumbers toward its predictable conclusion like a freight train going 5mph across the prairies. You know where it's going, you know it's going to take a long time to get there, but you still have to experience every boring, predictable page of it.

I've read a lot of fantasy, and the only authors I would put in the same tier as GRRM are Guy Gavriel Kay, Terry Pratchett and JV Jones. And JV Jones may be suffering from some GRRMitis herself. I haven't started Erickson's series yet because of GRRM and Robert Jordan, but from what I hear he belongs on the list too. But that's it. Tad Williams? No. Bakker? No fucking way. Abercrombie and Cook and others are good and I recomend them without compunction, but still not close to GRRM.

[PapaSmurf]

Erickson doesn't belong on that list. I'm assuming you mean the "drag things out forever" list. He releases every year, like clockwork. It's kinda frightening, though it would explain some of the quality issues his writing has.

[Drastic]

Yeah, I'd bet on the core Malazon series being finished in a timely manner. At this point, I wouldn't bet that Song of Ice and Fire ever will be. I'm at peace with that--and would be delighted to be proven wrong in a few years--because the first three books stand strongly enough on their own.

[John Reynolds]

I'd put Williams' Dragonbone Chair (the first book, not the series) up against any other fantasy published in the last 30 years. Hell, even GRRM credits Williams as a large part of his inspiration for tackling the fantasy genre after a career of writing sci-fi and horror.

[Ergo]

He writes terrible battles, that are simultaneously boring and confusing. He basically provides a post-battle report about what happened to a host of people with really similar names who are never given any depth to make them identifiable, yet alone interesting. And the overall plot of the trilogy lumbers toward its predictable conclusion like a freight train going 5mph across the prairies. You know where it's going, you know it's going to take a long time to get there, but you still have to experience every boring, predictable page of it.

I've read a lot of fantasy, and the only authors I would put in the same tier as GRRM are Guy Gavriel Kay, Terry Pratchett and JV Jones. And JV Jones may be suffering from some GRRMitis herself. I haven't started Erickson's series yet because of GRRM and Robert Jordan, but from what I hear he belongs on the list too. But that's it. Tad Williams? No. Bakker? No fucking way. Abercrombie and Cook and others are good and I recomend them without compunction, but still not close to GRRM.

I am very glad I pay no attention to your book recommendations. JV Jones? Oh, brother.

[maxle]

I feel the need to point out that there actually is a novelist named Stephen/Steve Erickson, and he is not the man who does the Malazan series, which I presume you folks are referring to. The Malazan guy is Steven Erikson.

Completely different :p

If there were half a dozen Fantasy writers as good as Martin, then no problem. All Martins fans would just give up waiting and move on.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the westeros boards, but I think you'll find the Martin fans who post there don't have much trouble finding worthy fantasy novels.

[Tim James]

You people know you could be playing some kickass videogames instead of reading this stuff, right?

[Steel_Wind]

I'm not saying GRRM owes me a refund. I'm not proposing a class-action lawsuit either.

But did the author create a reasonable expectation in the reader that "if I give you money for this, you'll follow through on the representation this series will actually be written?"

Yes. I think that's a reasonable expectation.

It really isn't about the lifetime of disappointments that I have had -- and will have in the future. It's about contempt for apologia delivered on behalf of a man who I really do believe is probably the most gifted living fantasy author.

For all that, the man just has not made enough recent deposits in the "love bank". The man is WAY overdrawn.

That said, I will buy ADwD the moment it is available. Truth be told, when AFFC was released, I not only bought it in hardcover, I bought it in e-book format too so I would get it 2 days earlier and so my wife and I could read it at the same time on multiple machines (as otherwise, there would have been a marriage crisis over who read the hardcover first).

All by way of saying, when you get right down to it, I guess I really am his bitch, after all.

As for a number of other authors mentioned herein:

Tad Williams: Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. I enjoyed it. Not great - but not bad. I have not read Otherland.

China Meiville: Perdido Street Station. I have it but couldn't get past page 100 or so. The urban fantasy thing wasn't working for me. I may give it another go as I've heard some great things and bought it on recommendation. I wanted to like it - I really did. It's not that he's a bad author, it's just that the setting wasn't working for me.

Patrick Rothfuss: In the Name of the Wind. This one I have also bought on recommendation and have not been able to get into it. The main thing is that this book kept coming up when GRRM was mentioned as an example of "similar awesomeness". In the 80 or so pages I have read, it seemed to me that the author was channeling Robert Jordan, not GRRM. Does it get better?

Stephen R. Donaldson: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Read the first and second trilogies and were among my faves back-in-the-day. I have the first book in the latest trilogy but I haven't summoned the will to really bite into it yet. From what I sampled, it seems as if the author's writing style has changed substantially. (Or maybe I'm just not a teenager anymore).

Glen Cook: I love The Black Company. While the series after the third book degenerated - I'm still a sucker for the Black Company. I've read most of his other series too. One of my all time faves.

Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen. I read and enjoyed the first novel, which seemed to me to be a pastiche of Glen Cook's The Black Company and nothing like GRRM at all (Erikson was recommended during a similar GRRM discussion. I'll say this for Erikson - he cranks out the words!) I actually own the first five books in the series, but the new characters/setting in the second book turned me off and I haven't been able to get into that second novel to get to the return to the characters from the first novel who, I am told, come back. Meh. I may revisit.

Julian May: The Pliocene Epoch. Been there, done that. I enjoyed them back in the day- but that was 25 years ago or so since I visted the Many Colored Land. No great interest in returning.

Robert Jordan: The Wheel of Time. Read to book six. He lost me there. I'm not interested in going back to that well.

Terry Goodkind: The Sword of Truth. I enjoyed the first book. I stopped... book four or so? Main issue was that Wizard's First Rule was a one-off that was retconned to turn into a series of fat fiction in a way that was just increasingly impossible to accept. The man cleary writes without an outline and it really shows. The SM overtones were fun; I was good with all that. The increasingly contrived excuses as to why Zed didn't fix "the problem", or why Kahlen and Richard were not trusting one another -- again? About as successful in the suspension of disbelief as Jordan's continuous resort to the same plot devices. I know bullshit when I read it.

For the most part, I've had a hard time reading fantasy since the mid 90s. The gaming fiction craze seemed to taint the whole genre into epic over-the-topness and fat fiction for the sake of fat fiction.

I keep looking for something grim and gritty and ... well....Martinesque. I have concluded that it's very hard to find. Which is damned odd, seeing as ASoIaF is the #1 bestseller of the past decade.

I ended up going to historical fiction as a consequence. I've tried Bernard Cornwell with hit and miss results (I enjoyed Azincourt but not his Arthurian books. I have not yet attempted the Sharpe series - but I'll get there).

I've enjoyed Patrick O' Brian's Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin novels with far more consistent results.

Back to fantasy/SF, recently, I've enjoyed Neil Gaiman. I actually think the best element of Neil Gaiman I have enjoyed has been his narration. Not his writing (though I really do enjoy it) - I mean his actual real voice. In audio book format - Gaiman's voice work when he reads Neverwhere is brilliant. Too bad he seems to have given that practice up. He is a wonderful reader, which is a rare gift among popular authors. He could read the phone book and I suspect I would enjoy that Audio book, too.

So who else is out there that has pulled off a half-way successful pastiche of George RR Martin? I'm beginning to thnk the answer is "nobody else." It seems odd as it's not that there is no demand. God knows aspiring writers have had time to do it as the years have passed by.

Any actual pretenders to GRRMness out there?

[Angie Gallant]

Believe me, I have read many, many works trying to emulate ASOIAF. You don't want to tread down that path.

[Stepsongrapes]

. . .

Robert Jordan: The Wheel of Time. Read to book six. He lost me there. I'm not interested in going back to that well.

Terry Goodkind: ...

Okay, you made it through several volumes of their books but you can't get yourself to finish up Perdido or Name of the Wind? Of the two, Mieville is much grittier (also a bit psychedelic).

"Name" probably isn't your thing- it isn't really very Martin-esque.

You'd probably enjoy S.L. Farell's Nassantico- it's got a lot of the politics of SoIaF. Kay's Lions of Al Rassan also fits politics and grit.

[DoomMunky]

Believe me, I have read many, many works trying to emulate ASOIAF. You don't want to tread down that path.

But won't you blog about them for us? :)

[Steel_Wind]

Okay, you made it through several volumes of their books but you can't get yourself to finish up Perdido or Name of the Wind? Of the two, Mieville is much grittier (also a bit psychedelic).

I don't blame the authors as much as I blame myself. I don't read as much as I used to. Might be my "hooked in" tipping point has altered over the years?

You'd probably enjoy S.L. Farell's Nassantico- it's got a lot of the politics of SoIaF. Kay's Lions of Al Rassan also fits politics and grit.

I read the Fionovar Tapestry back-in-the-day, which seemed very cool in the 80s as the whole Toronto tie-in to the Fionovar Tapestry and the ROM was cool... in the beginning, that is. When the series turned into some pseudo-Arthurian "saddest story ever told" thing - I began to despise it. The author's writing style wasn't very endearing either.

I hope GG Kay's writing style has improved over time?

As for Farell? Okay - cover blurb seems to appeal. I'll give it a go.

[Stepsongrapes]

I hope GG Kay's writing style has improved over time?

Fionovar is probably Kay's least accessible work. It's Arthur meets Zelazny's Amber with a dash of Narnia. It's meant to be lyrical and allegorical.

Of his works, Lions and Tigana are probably the most Martin-esque. Both are sweeping and mix a fair dose of politics into the story. Overall, I find Kay to be a much better writer in a technical sense (Mieville beats them both) than GRRM. GRRM is arguably the better novelist.

[Chris Nahr]

I think you would be well-served by just avoiding the fantasy genre entirely. It's a win-win for everyone.

Patrick Rothfuss fanboi spotted!

[Daniel Ford]

Any actual pretenders to GRRMness out there?

We share more or less the same opinions on Cook, May, Jordan, and Goodkind. Though, I didn't like Erickson or Donaldson.

Based on how long it took Martin to write the last book, and the amount of plot progression accomplished, I'm resigned to the fact that Martin will die of cardiovascular disease before the series is completed. But I'm okay with that, because in the last year I've discovered Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, and Brandon Sanderson.

[Cormac]

With so many fantasy authors being mentioned, I'm surprised nobody has brought up David Gemell yet. True, his style is very different to Martins and is thus not really a recommendation in the "similar to Martin" category. However pretty much all his books are a great read, though he does get slightly formulaic after a while, with a gruff anti-hero that faces overwhelming odds and saves the day (think 300). Lots of cool action and characters though!

[Athryn]

Fionovar is probably Kay's least accessible work. It's Arthur meets Zelazny's Amber with a dash of Narnia. It's meant to be lyrical and allegorical.

Of his works, Lions and Tigana are probably the most Martin-esque. Both are sweeping and mix a fair dose of politics into the story. Overall, I find Kay to be a much better writer in a technical sense (Mieville beats them both) than GRRM. GRRM is arguably the better novelist.

One thing I would recommend with regards to Kay: skip Ysabel. It's a modern day fantasy that takes place in France, and I did not like it as much as his other work. It's whole tone is just off compared to the rest of the stuff he's written.

[Beefeater1980]

One thing I would recommend with regards to Kay: skip Ysabel. It's a modern day fantasy that takes place in France, and I did not like it as much as his other work. It's whole tone is just off compared to the rest of the stuff he's written.

Just to expand on this a bit, also don't assume that you won't like Ysabel because of this change of tone - I like GG Kay a lot (in particular, Tigana and Last Light of the Sun are great), and I also liked Ysabel. But it's a very different kind of book. A good one to come to cold, after you haven't read his other stuff for a while.