Marriage - a dying concept

[Sean Tudor]

This may seem like a strange subject but anyway ...

It seems many of my personal friends and online acquaintances are having problems with their marriages - big problems. They are either separating, divorcing, or seeking councelling.

It has become especially bad during the last 12 months. It seems that marriage is no longer something that holds up no matter how bad things get. Maybe it is because of the immense stress of lack of employment opportunities.

Many of my friends have been retrenched from their jobs this past year because of the tech wreck. Three close friends are seeking a divorce. They each have children.

I know in this country (Australia) marriages are hitting a 50% divorce rate. Is marriage totally pointless these days ? What is the point of marrying if you run away at the first sign of trouble or hardship ? Is the search for the almighty dollar ruining marriage ? Are material possessions taking precedence over love and friendship ?

[JeffL]

I can only speak for my own - we'll have 22 wonderful years in a couple of weeks. We've gone through poor times, good times, lots of money, "what are we going to do about our lack of money?", births, deaths, incredible joy and sorrows that made us ache. We often have pissed each other off, argued/fought, and -gasp- gone to bed angry.

But all of that has made us closer than ever, and I love her so much that I realize I didn't even know what love was when we were married. The key is that our marriage isn't based on a "me-me-me" foundation. We've seen marriages of friends fall apart because one of the spouses felt "they weren't getting what they needed" from the marriage. It's a self-centered world these days, and that's murder on marriages.

[AIM]

Yep, in America people just don't get married anymore. Or if they do, they usually end up divorced within a 5 -10 year span. American's are allways looking for that quick fix. If the marriage isn't working, then it's divorce time. Even though they could probably save their marriage with a little understanding and support. Times do get tough but you need to work through them, and Americans do not want to do this.

Also... Let's talk about why caucasian american's aren't having children anymore. Or they are waiting until they reach their late 20's or early 30's to have children. It seems to me that we have become selfish. I'm 32 yrs. old, and I can name a ton of my friends and acquaintances that have zero children. During my parents generation, an average household had 3-4 children. But not anymore. It seems that the minorities of america (mexicans, puerto ricans and african americans) are leaving us in the dust when it comes to the production of children. Christ, I'm very good friends with a puerto rican female and her sister just had her 4th child. And she's only 27 years old. No wonder were expected to be the minority in 20-30 years.

So... It pretty much all ties together. In my opinion, working and obtaining materalistic items is what matters to the majority of americans, while marriage and having children take a back seat. It's sad.

[Matthew Gallant]

People who have children are the selfish ones.

[chet]

Ah yes, I remember vactioning in Beautiful Europe where there is a zero divorce rate, oh wait, no I don't, because while we have a higher rate, most European countries are only a few percentage points behind us.

Why are they behind us? You are right, it has everything to do with quick fixes - keeping a mistress is much more accepted in Europe than America.

But really what does it matter, AIM was so busy to make his anti-america (boy do we suck!) post he didn't notice Sean lives in Australia.

And bravo for having the nerve to say what we are all thinking. Everyone should be having more kids! The younger the better. Don't have a job yet? Can't provide for your child? Don't worry - get the kids first, worry about providing for their enviroment later. I am with you on this one, if I had kids when I was 16, I could have them working in the fields now and be rich living off their wages. How stupid of me! Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

Chet

[Mark Asher]

There's less of a stigma to being divorced nowadays and many families are two-income families and thus splitting up is easier.

Also, without a doubt children help keep marriages together as the focus is shifted from the husband-wife relationship to caring for the well being of the children. Many couples are waiting longer to have kids and end up divorcing before they have kids. (I'd argue that kids are the primary reason to get married in the first place. If you don't plan on having kids, why not just live together?)

Is divorce bad? What's the alternative? Continue to live with someone who makes you unhappy? That seems bad. If no kids are involved, then all that's at stake is money. Seems silly to keep a bad relationship together over money.

[Met_K]

I wonder where SiNNER is. I'd like to see a three-way no-holds-barred ladder-cage-glass-thing match between him, Chet, and AIM.

[Jason McCullough]

'Also... Let's talk about why caucasian american's aren't having children anymore.'

Cleve? Is that you?

[Murph]

As someone who is in the midst of the worst problems his marriage -- and indeed his life -- has ever seen, I want to make it known that I have no intention of throwing in the towel, and neither does my wife...At least, most of the time. Sometimes she's less sure.

But I agree that selfishness is the heart of the problem with most people. Probably with us. We both made selfish decisions that got us into a bad situation, and now they're threatening to tear us apart. Only through understanding and patience and a desire to make things work no matter what (which is where my wife's having trouble right now) will get us through this, and I know it.

But don't add us to list of "couples that didn't make it" just yet. There's still hope for us. And lots of it.

[Anonymous]

Only through understanding and patience and a desire to make things work no matter what (which is where my wife's having trouble right now) will get us through this

If you insist the other person agreeing to "make things work, no matter what" you are trapping that person.

[wumpus]

I wonder where SiNNER is.

I think it's seriously unlikely you will ever see Sinner on a messageboard that Chet has full control over. Remember the blood feud?

[Murph]

If you insist the other person agreeing to "make things work, no matter what" you are trapping that person.

I agree. I would never force my wife into that. But I think she's going to have to reach that point on her own, and find a desire to do whatever it takes to make things work, in order for us to get through what we're going through. That's all I meant.

[chet]

Wumpus I do not have full control over these boards. I am a user just like you. We host over 75 web sites, I don't play or check with any of their data. The only thing I have done here is setup the message board and a week ago check some code changes they did as I was going to suggest a change to all our customers who use phpbb2 (their code is sloppy and wastes bandwidth like crazy, I have a simple fix for it). I just wanted to check the code changes Mark did to make sure the fix would work for him as well.

And what difference would it make? Do you mean the difference of all the one shot cheap shots against me have stopped?!!? That is terrible.

Though I would love to ask sinner, since I now host QT3 on my servers, which is more than I did for FCIPHS, does this make QT3 even more under my influence than FCIPHS where all I did was link to the site? Can I take credit for all of Tom and Mark's writing?

Chet

[Tyjenks]

I have been married 6 years, have a 15 mo. old girl, and we are doing pretty well. I think marriage is hard work. There definitely has to be give and take and loads of communication.

I believe today people do get selfish as has been stated above. Divorce is a much more accepted solution and seems like an easy and quick fix for a couple that just cannot seem to keep it together. Speaking as a child (or victim) of divorce when I was five, I must say that it was neither easy nor quick. It was not necessarily the only solution for my parents, but it was the best.

I also believe many people who get married in today's world do not take it as seriously either. A couple thinks, "What the Hell, let's give it a go. We can always call it quits if we get sick of each other." You have to go into it with the commitment that you are going to make it last forever. I think some say the words in their vows as if they are only that: words. They are much more than that and they simply do not compute for some.

[algahar]

it seems that our generation (i think i fall into the x category) is mostly against having children. i think the major reason is that kids would bring too much responsibilities and too many constraints. i am terrified by the idea that my kid, if i ever had 1, would hate me cause im not a good dad, which cant be defined, still. often than not, having kids is definitely not rewarding either. just look at how terrible our relationships are with our parents, thats a good enough reason never to have kids. (im only saying on behalf of people i know irl... :roll: )

marriage is still moderately acceptable but once the responsibilities and constraints thing get out of bound (i never THOUGHT this will be like that, its not SUPPOSED to be like this, or the selfish factor gets into the equation) then we give up. we dont have the patient/will power cause we understand theres always a lot of options out there. and having that patient/will power is too much effort.

"we are very much in love. we decide to get married"... well u know what, marriage is not a decision, is determination i think...

[Supertanker]

Being married eight years and having three kids, I recommend against marriage and children to all of my friends. I recommend against marriage because I think 90% or more people are unsuited for it. I'm happily married, but most of my married friends are not. Of all the married people I know, I can only think of two, maybe three couples that I think will last past 10 years, and one of those is a second marriage.

I recommend against children because the sacrifices they require far, far outweigh any benefits. I think few, if any, people understand how much work is required, which leads to a lot of unhappy families.

I'm happy being Mr. Family Man, but I only know a couple of other guys that do or would feel the same way. Odds are a person will find marriage or family unpleasant or unfulfilling, possibly both. Better to skip them.

[Tyjenks]

I recommend against children because the sacrifices they require far, far outweigh any benefits.

Hold on...are you saying the benefits you get from having your 3 children are not worth what you have had to give up?

Just so I am clear.

[Anonymous]

I'm just going to interject; I haven't read any of the prior posts.... but I just wanted to say that reading this topic's headline, I'm always hearing the old priest in "The Princess Bride" in my head.

"Maaaaaaaaariage."

That is all.

[Bub, Andrew]

No offense Supertanker but what kind of people do you associate with? Is this some LA thing? Most of the people I know who are married are on their first marriage *and* they're happily married. *Especially* the one's with kids. It's the single folks I know who are the unhappy sods. Especially the older guys.

You've been hanging out with Bill Maher, haven't you?

[Tyjenks]

Most of the people I know who are married are on their first marriage *and* they're happily married. *Especially* the one's with kids. It's the single folks I know who are the unhappy sods. Especially the older guys.

Agreed. Everytime I get a little restless with the wife and kid I think back to the days of driving home alone smashed from some sleazy club at 2:30am, getting beers once I get home, and taking a couple of laps on foot around the apartment complex in the rain. That was when I was 25 or so. I can just imagine how miserable I would be today if I went back to the hallowed "single life".

Ahhhh, but to each his own, I suppose.

[Supertanker]

I recommend against children because the sacrifices they require far, far outweigh any benefits.

Hold on...are you saying the benefits you get from having your 3 children are not worth what you have had to give up?

Just so I am clear.

Yes. My wife and I agree that if we could do it all over, we'd skip kids.

[Brad Grenz]

Well, I hope they don't read this thread.

[Supertanker]

No offense Supertanker but what kind of people do you associate with? Is this some LA thing?

It could be an LA thing, though up here where I live, it is conservative, church-going "God's Country." The Reagan Library is only one valley over from us. Supposedly everything around here is fine.

However, I've always found there is a David Lynch-like patina of happiness on most places, but with all kinds of scum underneath. The worst bunch of unhappy sods I ever knew was the population of the small Arizona town I lived in (6,000 residents). Sure, everyone looked peaceful and happy on the surface, but in the years after I left there my favorite teacher left his wife and four kids to run off with a girl from my class; the preacher from our little Methodist church came out of the closet and left his family; his wife did time for white collar crime (she was an accountant); three different affairs among the church members came into view (including the choir director banging one of the choir members) ending three marriages in ugly divorces; there were two drunk-driving deaths; and the owner of the local hangout was convicted of arson for burning the place down. Now that the town has grown considerably (over 100,000 residents), it is known as a center of white supremacist groups. If you just drive down Main Street, though, the place looks neat and happy.

[Supertanker]

Agreed. Everytime I get a little restless with the wife and kid I think back to the days of driving home alone smashed from some sleazy club at 2:30am, getting beers once I get home, and taking a couple of laps on foot around the apartment complex in the rain. That was when I was 25 or so. I can just imagine how miserable I would be today if I went back to the hallowed "single life".

Why does the single life have to be drinking and hanging out in clubs? My uncle has never married, and he travels a lot, spends a lot of time in NYC attending shows and art events, etc.. He just does what he wants to do, and isn't miserable at all.

[Supertanker]

Well, I hope they don't read this thread.

I just don't want them to see it for ten or fifteen years. I didn't say we don't love them dearly, and we make sure they know we do. However, it is currently beyond their comprehension that we might have had a happy life without them. When they are older, I want them to understand and appreciate what we gave up for them.

Haven't you ever wondered what your parents would have been like if they had not had kids? My Dad probably would have been a better organist - a beloved hobby he had to drop when my brother and I came along. My Mom probably would still work for Chevron, have amassed a nice art collection as well as improving her painting and tennis skills - more things ground under the time demands from us kids. They both would be heavily involved in opera, but with kids they lacked time to work their way up the volunteer ranks as they wanted.

I also want my kids to know that I'm posting this at 3:30am not because I just got home from a club, but because one of them kicked her pillow out of her bed. Rather than just pick it up and go back to sleep, she threw a screaming fit until I came in and gave her the pillow back. :roll:

[Aszurom]

Ya know, the secret to population control is for the government to subsidize sterilization. Instead of paying out for the kids people have and then can't effectively support, they should instead offer a no-charge quick-snip at the clinic and end the problem.

You would think that at a time when STDs can kill you and there are a great number of groups pushing for "safe sex" and birth control, that highschools wouldn't need daycare centers. However, I'm just as convinced as ever that the general population is rock fucking stupid.

Thus, the educated among us look at the prospect of children and think "Well, I'll plan for them and only have 1 or 2." However, the ignorant who can do nothing but eat and screw like rabbits, are dropping a kid a year. Is it still the status symbol in some parts of town to be able to claim more illegitimate children in a 5 mile radius than your buddy has?

Thus, stupid people (regardless of race or anything other than common sense) are outbreeding intelligent people by like 10 to 1. This is, apparently, inverse Darwinism. Is that the signal the we've evolved to the point where we begin to devolve? I don't know, but DEVO was from Akron and so am I - and I like their music and thus I'm right.

Personally, I think offering a cash reward for getting sterilized would entice the element of society that most needs it to do so.

We live in a time where the long-promised technology to implement a planned reproduction program of sorts exists. We could very easily start weeding genetic defects out of the species through medical screening and family planning. Do we do this? NO. Why? Because it's the god-given right of anyone - smart or stupid - to breed. Also, a large part of the problem is social rather than genetic. It's the culture these children are raised in that determines their use of whatever intellectual capacity they've been given. Hell, I'm guilty in my own life of not using my mind to full capacity - however, I can read and write and apply common-sense reasoning to just about any situation... and that seems an ability lacking in a large percentage of the population.

Maybe it's just that the majority of people having kids are in the 16-25 age bracket. I look back and see how ignorant I was back then in comparison to how my values and decision making has changed over time. I mean, when you're 21 one of the key things on your mind is getting your libido taken care of. Also a lot of marriages (first marriages, hehe) spring up in those years. How can you decide that you're going to spend the rest of your life with someone, and yet neither of you knows who you are yet, let alone has learned to communicate with another person who is also going through a self-redefinement process on a constant basis?

I think some young people realize this - and decide to "wait until they're older" to have kids. By the time that comes around, they're wise enough to say that kids aren't such a good idea for them. Oh... and +10 idiot points for anybody who ever suggests that "having kids will fix a failing relationship." Hahaha... NO.

[Tyjenks]

Why does the single life have to be drinking and hanging out in clubs? My uncle has never married, and he travels a lot, spends a lot of time in NYC attending shows and art events, etc.. He just does what he wants to do, and isn't miserable at all.

It does not have to be that. I was really just saying I would have probably gone back to that because I would still be looking for someone. There are other things I enjoy and could stay involved in, but, for myself, coming home to an empty house is not something I would like.

I understand that you can easily stay unmarried and not be alone, but I would not have been happy with that. I also see that the bar scene is not the only place to find someone, but it is a lot easier and quicker to find companionship there when you are feeling alone than anywhere else I have found.

I actually met my wife in a bar at 1:30am. We have been happily married for 6 years and have one kid.

Everyone's situation is different. These are just my thoughts.

[JeffL]

Wow. What a depressing thread.

Yeah, kids require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of effort, bring a lot of worries and heartburn. But I look at our life with them, and I look at my married friends who've chosen a bigger house and a cottage up north and a better car over kids, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything in the world. Our family of five is the center of my life, and while it IS hard work, I just can't imagine any "things" that could replace it.

Living in the same house with the same person for your entire life is absolutely a challenge - hell, how many best friends have a hard time living with each other in a dorm for a few semesters? But the rewards of a family that is the center of your life are so great. Sorry to sound so old fashioned, and I hope it doesn't sound smug - I know that I'm really lucky/blessed to have a wife and kids and a home that is filled with the love ours has, even through the tough times and the angry times. I suppose I didn't realize how lucky until reading this thread. It certainly isn't due to any characteristics of mine!- Hmmm - note, send roses to wife today....

[Brian Rucker]

I think that about sums it up. Everyone's situation is different. However, we can also look at statistics and want to put a story to them so as to explain trends. I look around and even during the course of my life I've seen the world appear to get more and more driven by money - rightsizing, privatization, and corporate subsidies for public institutions (even as they weasle out of paying taxes). Things that belonged to the community before and even the ability to take some time to be with friends and family seem to have been ceeded to economic incentives. This has to have some social consequences.

But ultimately, it's personal. In my case I take marraige so seriously that I've never been married. When I start thinking about the rest of my life, and look across the table at the other person, any reaction other than 'oh no' has been rather shortlived. I think I could get married but I haven't met the right person yet and, at this rate, it's entirely unlikely I will. My last few close encounters with the feminine nesting instinct were a bit too harrowing for this old batchelor. If one day I meet a kindred spirit, well, then - that'll be another story. As it is, I have to admit, the single life has been verra verra good to me.

[Mark Asher]

"When I start thinking about the rest of my life, and look across the table at the other person, any reaction other than 'oh no' has been rather shortlived. I think I could get married but I haven't met the right person yet and, at this rate, it's entirely unlikely I will. My last few close encounters with the feminine nesting instinct were a bit too harrowing for this old batchelor."

You know too much. You understand what an upheaval a permanent relationship would bring. That's probably why you'll never get married.

It's better to get married when you're young because you're more flexible and young people are stupid and don't know what they're getting into. :wink:

I've often thought that if you take children out of the equation, the ideal male-female relationship would be co-habiting on the weekends but spending the weekdays apart. You'd have a companion when you'd have time to enjoy her companionship, yet you'd also have a lot of the freedom that being single allows. You want to go out clubbing after work? Fine. Want to work out? Sure. Want to veg and play computer games all evening. Great. There would be no conflict, no putting aside of you want to do to please someone else.

You see a lot of elderly couples like this. For a lot of reasons they don't want a legal relationship and they don't want to co-habit all the time, but they often do form permanent relationships with an unattached member of the opposite sex. The woman enjoys being squired to events and the man enjoys having a permanent date.