Crafting in MMORPGs

[MikeTwain]

The Wish discussion touched on crafting briefly. Of course, despite the hype the Wish crafting sounds exactly the same as every other crafting system. Machines + skill stats = stuff. Boring. When is a game going to make a fun crafting system? What the hell use is it to learn a "craft" when all you are doing is following a formula that generates the same exact result as everybody else gets? Oh, sorry, I forgot that some games have *gasp* one exceptional result.

Apple Pie ==> Really Awesome Apple Pie +1 to woozle


Seriously though, these games have to start integrating crafting into the action. For instance, why not have a mini game that determines how good your result is. The best I've seen so far was the charcoal system in ATITD (trust me it sucked.) It was a valiant attempt that simply wasn't fun.

Better yet, why not have a system that lets you combine basic ingredients and lets you use inventory items to try to get different effects. So for instance, if you want to make a sword, you can attempt to add effects or stat bonuses or powers to the sword. Combined with the mini-game concept, this would really make crafting interesting rather than it just being another way to grind.

The result of this would be a system that would give the same kind of results you get in Dungeon Siege. There's lots of modifiers (prefixes and suffixes etc) that make high quality weapons interesting.

You start with a few basic weapon types like Longsword, mace, hammer, etc.

Then they add these modifiers like "of the dog" or "Olaf's" or "Gliding" or "of Sickness," "of Monstrosity," etc

You end up with things like "Olaf's Rigid Leather Gloves of the Dog" or "Gliding Short Bow of Monstrosity."

I know that this kind of system would be difficult because it could potentially create a lot more balance issues than the cookie cutter crap we have now, but we would finally have a crafting system that was worth doing on its own merits. Especially if they based the result of the crafting on the aforementioned mini-game type system.

I'm very hopeful that this can happen now that I've heard what WoW has to offer. WoW seems to be the first game where they were equally concerned with really creating a fun experience rather than simply whoring out a sci-fi license to collect the most benjamins. Not to mention any MMORPG in particular though.

:roll:

If we're lucky, WoW has raised the bar in general and we can expect to see the crafting aspects of these games get more attention. Maybe.

[Sockpuppet]

One of my main complaints with WoW is that so much of the character armor looks simply stupid. My paladin is churning out grotesque green iron armor to make sure my party members are as ugly as they are well-protected. The ingredients of the green iron armor are some basic smithing supplies, iron bars, and green dye.

Why can't I simply substitute any colour dye I want? Or, better yet, leave it UNcoloured and just have a nice metal sheen? Instead of those stupid horns adorning my helmet, why not make those an option? Want horns? Take this core recipe and add bone to it or something. Allow for a little individuality!

Blizzard missed a great chance for player customization (why not allow for cosmetic variations on armor if they don't make any stat difference) while showcasing an ever-worsening carnival of fashion crime. I actually keep a screenshot gallery of just how gawdy my paladin looks. Boo!

[mouselock]

Why can't I simply substitute any colour dye I want? Or, better yet, leave it UNcoloured and just have a nice metal sheen? Instead of those stupid horns adorning my helmet, why not make those an option? Want horns? Take this core recipe and add bone to it or something. Allow for a little individuality!

At a guess, because the way they've implemented their item database means that orange "Green Iron Armor" would take another item slot.

Similarly for the first idea.. 20 prefixes + 20 suffixes + N items is insane if you store them statically, and if you store them dynamically then you have to either look up the overall effect every time the item is used (which is a lot for armor or weapons) or, best case, create a dynamic variable pool for every character on entering game/equipping gear that binds the overall stats to that character (which increases character storage/bandwidth footprint).

That's not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, but given how much somethign like WoW, which has relatively simple crafting and customization options, already chugs when lots of characters are present in one place, I can only assume the database/character storage implications are far from trivial.

[TheWombat]

And then there's the 3D art resources necessary for full customization. As cool as it would be--and yes, it WOULD be cool--I can't see it being very feasible.

[Bitterman]

It is not hard to do. All you have to do is set it up like NWN or CoH, where you have premade assets for which you can alter color and positioning of several different pieces.

[Gryndyl]

I'd like to see a customizable point system for crafting like WoW has with the specialty point skill trees for the classes. You could put points in that increase a stat bonus, or the durability, etc. Would allow for crafters to become fairly specialized and create truly unique product.

[Silverlight]

Similarly for the first idea.. 20 prefixes + 20 suffixes + N items is insane if you store them statically, and if you store them dynamically then you have to either look up the overall effect every time the item is used (which is a lot for armor or weapons) or, best case, create a dynamic variable pool for every character on entering game/equipping gear that binds the overall stats to that character (which increases character storage/bandwidth footprint).

I doubt they're storing pointers to the effects because even two items with the same modifier type (i.e. "of the Bear") can have slightly different stat boosts. Probably all that information is simply stored with the item itself, and then referenced whenever needed. For something like that the only lookups that occur are client-side, to look up the special name text.

And if that is the case, then allowing crafters to create any of the common green modifiers is not a matter of altering the item database, but of interface design and game balance issues.

[Rywill]

Can I add a slight derail complaint about crafting in MMOs? Please make it easier for a high-level character to work up his crafting. Many MMOs are guilty of this, and WoW is one of the worst. If you haven't been working up a particular crafting skill from the time you were level 5, it's a big pain to work it up later. As a Rogue, I recently decided to give up leatherworking and take herbalism instead, at around level 30 (Rogues end up needing a couple herbs to use some of their abilities, which I didn't know when I started the character). I also took up cooking at around the same time (again, it turns out Rogues need Cooking to use one of their abilities, which I didn't know when I started).

God does this suck. The only herbs I can pick (to start) are the ones found in the newbie gardens. Similarly, the only recipies I can cook are the ones requiring lowbie drops. So I spend hours of my time cruising around outside Ironforge or Stormwind, backstabbing 10-HP Starving Wolf Pups for 350 points of damage hoping they'll drop Stringy Meat or whatever. UGH! And I feel bad, because there are people out there who are legitimately trying to level their characters and complete the Kill The Wolves quest, and I'm running through there clearing the entire zone in like 30 seconds, leaving them nothing to fight until it repops.

It's not like this would be so hard to fix. Make is so that anyone can cook the meat that comes off any drop, but higher-skill cooks can make better dishes. I.e., I should be able to make crappy Charred Wolf Meat off any wolf drop, not just the level-2 wolves--but a super-cook can make Tasty Magical Wolf Stew off of the high-level stuff. Similarly, put the low-level herbs in every zone, dammit. If you want to make some of the high-level herbs really rare, fine, put them only in certain places. But don't make me wander around Goldshire for two hours looking for Peacebloom.

[mouselock]

I doubt they're storing pointers to the effects because even two items with the same modifier type (i.e. "of the Bear") can have slightly different stat boosts. Probably all that information is simply stored with the item itself, and then referenced whenever needed. For something like that the only lookups that occur are client-side, to look up the special name text.

No, you need serverside lookups to reference the actual effect. If those were stored clientside then my level 13 sword of the tiger could give me +178 agility and nobody would be the wiser. The combat engine has to look it up to apply any bonuses/effects.

And if that is the case, then allowing crafters to create any of the common green modifiers is not a matter of altering the item database, but of interface design and game balance issues.

I don't think so. If the modifiers aren't constant and stored seperately (or formulaic and stored seperately a la Diablo II), then every "Y sword of the Z" requires it's own entry. If the modifiers are either constant or formulaic and stored seperately, then you take base item (sword) modified by (Y) modified by (Z) and have your stats. If those are simple calculations no big deal. But you're still performing O(N) operations, where N=#chars*#modifiers per gear slot*#gear slots. Since you have no real control over the #chars portion of that equation on any single processor cluster, you have to limit the other two parts pretty stringently to ensure that, for example, 45 high end dudes each wielding equipment with 2 modifiers doesn't generate #gear_slots*#modifiers lookups per character.

Or you have to somehow cache it locally on the character (which is obviously the first optimization to make) and ensure that the local cache isn't hard to refresh from the database. No clue how hard that is to do really; it doesn't sound hard. But that would imply that I shouldn't get this hideous slowdown in Ironforge simply because 400 people are present, and I obviously do. (And it's not from bringing my machine or, assumably, my 1.5Mbps DSL line to it's knees - it's server based.)

[steve]

What do Rogues need cooking for? I'm 38 and haven't bumped into anything yet... I think.

[DeepT]

Actually you do not need lookup tables for all this crap. Sure you need them for some basic items, such as Plate Gauntlets or Leather Helm. But beyond the basic stats, you can throw the tables out.

Diablo 2 had an auto-treasure system in which it would make up stuff on the fly. Id did this through some statistical formula to balance items.

The same can be done for crafting. Start with plate arm-guards which have a base skill of X to make and require Y levels to use. Then if you want to increase the base AC by N% it increases the cost by C% and Level requirment by L%.

Then similarly add 'effects' such as does X fire damage when hit. Set these up as Kits which can be added during the crafting of the armor which have thier own costs/level/skill requirements.

Finally add some rules about how many things you can combine. You may say that plate allows 3 defensive kits and 1 of each other kind of kit. Cloth might only allow one defense kit, but 3 stat kits and 2 misc magic kits.

Then the said crafter gets the stuff for the basic items, gets all the kits he plans to include, and viola you have Flaming Plate gauntlets of Inpenitrable Defense that require X skill to make and Y Level to wear.

[Sockpuppet]

A simple modular system like that in the Tony Hawk games show just how much customization is possible with a little freedom and creativity on the part of the players. Granted, it's very different to have to do that for 8 people online than for 8000 people in a MMORPG, but I'm unconcerned with the technological constraints - I'm just saying the crafting would be infinitely more satisfying if there was a point to using any creativity, and you weren't just going to inevitably make the same stuff that every other blacksmith/tailor/engineer/cook was going to make.

And I reiterate my point that most of the armor in the game is unspeakably ugly.

I'd be awfully pleased with my green iron helmet if it wasn't green and didn't have those stupid horns! (And if every other l30ish Paladin/Warrior wasn't wearing the same one.)

[Ryan A]

Rather than boring recipe-based crafting, why not just put in a Bejeweled mini game to magically enhance an item?

Better yet, in a futuristic mmorpg, you could put in a Centipede-style mini game to... wait for it... debug your gear.

[Rywill]

What do Rogues need cooking for? I'm 38 and haven't bumped into anything yet... I think.

Thistle Tea, which becomes available around level 20 or 25 if I remember right.

[Silverlight]

No, you need serverside lookups to reference the actual effect. If those were stored clientside then my level 13 sword of the tiger could give me +178 agility and nobody would be the wiser. The combat engine has to look it up to apply any bonuses/effects.

Maybe you should read what I wrote a little more carefully, and observe that the only things that I mentioned as looked up on the client side are stored text strings. Everything else I mentioned occurs on the server. I thought this was an obvious enough condition that I didn't bother to write it down.

As for the rest, I don't get your point. It doesn't matter whether players can craft custom gear or not. At some point all those stat modifiers need to be added up, applied to their character, and turned into some single object that describes what happens when the player swings their weapon. Custom gear has no effect on this process.

If you don't like my reasoning, then go look empirically at Blizzard's actions. WoW has lots of randomized gear as it is. The only thing we're really talking about is players being able to craft the same stuff. The rest of the engine doesn't care whether a player crafted it or it was dropped by a mob.

Or you have to somehow cache it locally on the character (which is obviously the first optimization to make) and ensure that the local cache isn't hard to refresh from the database. No clue how hard that is to do really; it doesn't sound hard.

It isn't. So what does this mean? That the speed of the item systems is going to have very little impact, because everything about a combat swing is going to be stored in a cached entry on the character itself.

But that would imply that I shouldn't get this hideous slowdown in Ironforge simply because 400 people are present, and I obviously do. (And it's not from bringing my machine or, assumably, my 1.5Mbps DSL line to it's knees - it's server based.)

The hideous slowdown is because you have 400 people whose actions need to be propagated to everyone who is relevant. I imagine it's also because, for some blatantly stupid reason, the Ironforge server machine is acting as a middleman between the player and the auction database. Bringing the item systems into it is a red herring of the highest magnitude; that stuff probably takes up all of a tenth of a percent of server time.

[Poops McGee]

My brother plays Puzzle Pirates religiously and I seem to remember him describing a mini game for brewing or something. The better you were, the better quality stuff you could make or the more of it you could make, which you could then sell. I'm probably mangling this, but I'm not a Puzzle Pirate. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Michael Fortson]

SWG crafting rocks. Very versatile system, with wildly varying results from crafter to crafter depending on material quality, tastes, etc. Too bad the rest of the game can't compare.