Reply With QuoteToday's New York Times has a decent story on the ratings system as a whole. There are your usual references to Grand Theft Auto and NBA Ballers, plus a paragraph about Leisure Suit Larry avoiding the AO rating.
Troy
In what seems to be a monthly thing these days, another high-level government person, in this case the Governor of Illinois, has called for laws banning the sales of mature rated games to minors.
The mainstream gaming forums, particularly the 14 year olds, are of course going ballistic over the potential loss of their right to buy Grand Theft Auto. The parent's groups are cheering this, while the retail and rental business owners are blasting it.Originally Posted by [url=http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2004-12-16-illinois-game-ban_x.htm
Same deal, different month, really.
Today's New York Times has a decent story on the ratings system as a whole. There are your usual references to Grand Theft Auto and NBA Ballers, plus a paragraph about Leisure Suit Larry avoiding the AO rating.
Troy
In addition to banning the sales of M-rated games to minors, we should also prevent them from buying shoes. Or, food.
They gotta get the "tough on moral terpitude" stamp somehow. Can't really attack metal music anymore, because the people who listened to it are now a national voting demographic. It's kind of a rite of passage for every cultural phenomenon I guess. Once you've been mainstream for two decades, the "defenders of morality" move on to something else.
Sale of '18' rated games to minors is already a criminal offence over here in the UK (punishable by a fine of up to £6000 and/or up to a 6 month jail sentence), but it still doesn't stop the tabloids calling for a total ban on the sale of these games and it's not an offence for parents to buy such games for their kids. The Govenment and the ELPSA have just started a campaign to inform parents as to what the ratings mean. It also seems, following 'sting' operations that retailers are pretty lax about enforcing the policy, which suggests to me that no-one has ever been prosecuted under the law.
Okay, what'm I missing here? What's wrong with the idea of "Hey, these self-imposed ratings say this content probably isn't suitable for minors, therefore maybe we ought to actually penalize the folks who go out and sell them to minors anyway, regardless of the ratings?" Isn't this effectively what's done with R-rated movies, or is that strictly voluntary and just hundreds of times more effective?
I mean, it's not like he's calling for an outright ban of selling the games, unless the quote got horribly mangled. He's just saying "Well, since the game sellers don't seem to be doing a good job of self-policing, maybe we should put some effort into policing them." Tobacco sales were the same way until they really put some teeth into restricting tobacco sales to minors. (Not that I'm implying a similarity between possible detrimental side effects of tobacco and violent videogames.)
It's very simple:
Games are protected by the First Amendment. This means they can't be legally regulated by the government. This means you can't make a law banning M-rated games or the sales of them to children (in the US). Tobacco is a substance and substances aren't protected by the First Amendment. Pornography hasn't been ruled as "speech," (courts decided porno had a different "purpose" than speech) so it can be regulated.
Movies ratings, like game ratings, are voluntary. A theater can admit 5-year olds into R-rated movies, without parents, all they want. They don't because they fear the public backlash. The only way to get retailers to voluntarily card (and I think they should do this) is the same kind of public pressure.
It should be up to the game industry to work with retailers on this front, much like the MPAA does with theater owners.
Here's the IEMA (Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association) response:
REACTION STATEMENT TO PROPOSED IL STATE LEGISLATION
Attributable to: Hal Halpin, president
Retail member companies of the IEMA (Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association) collectively account for approximately 85% of the $10B annual video game business in the United States. Last December (2003), member companies chose to voluntarily implement new carding policies and procedures at the store level in an effort to inhibit the sale of Mature-rated games to minors, and stated that they expected those new procedures to be in place by December 2004. Over the course of the past twelve months IEMA members have redoubled their efforts, investing in training of store-level staff, installing and promoting ratings awareness signage, and fundamentally changing the way in which they merchandise games. Our members recognized that they have a social duty, and met that obligation head-on, re-investing in their relationships with consumers. Sting operations performed two full months ahead of the IEMA's self-imposed deadline indicated a statistically-significant shift - a 20% year-on-year reduction, in retailers stemming the tide.
It is important to note that sting operations conducted with minors often presuppose several scientifically-challenged facts including: the minor's theoretical ability to drive him/herself to the locations where these stings are performed; the minor's hypothetical possession of the required $50 in disposable income, etc. Often, these stings are performed with severely flawed methodology and in locales which are not IEMA member companies, nor are they statistically-relevant in a broad-spectrum market share discussion.
Academic studies are conducted irregularly about a potential causal connection between observing violent media and effects in human behavior, to - at best - mixed results. What is clear is that industry self-regulation in identifying types and styles of games through the ratings system, and now a massive undertaking in inhibiting the sale of M-rated games to minors, is working - and those cumulative efforts are as effective, to a substantially-similar degree, as movie theatre owners, whom politicians are fond of holding up as the Gold Standard in this arena. Time and again parents have vocalized their interest in retaining responsibility for monitoring their children's entertainment consumption, and simply wish to be armed with appropriate education to that end. Similarly, each and every attempt at government intervention in this issue has failed due to the fact that industry self-regulation is working and the IEMA is committed to seeing it through.
please insert something trite, overspoken yet largely underpracticed about how regulating what the minors are exposed to should be done more by their parents and less by the Man in the space provided here
How so? I mean, how does the MPAA work with theater owners?
I'm not allowed to.
But seriously, since it can't be government regulation because of the Constitution. What do you suggest?
It can fine them for violations, or withhold movies--if you're showing R-rated movies to minors, maybe you don't get any more R-rated movies.
It's a little like the ESRB. It has the right to fine game publishers for content violations.
I did not know that.It can fine them for violations, or withhold movies--if you're showing R-rated movies to minors, maybe you don't get any more R-rated movies.
It's a little like the ESRB. It has the right to fine game publishers for content violations.
So, theoretically, if they gained that right, the ESRB could start fining retail chains for violations? I imagine that'd be hard to set up. Retail chains have more clout than theater owners.
Are the enforcement powers of the MPAA or ESRB meaningful in any way? Can either fine a chain, or do they simply go after a particular proprietor? If my local EB or Walmart sells LSL to my 12 year neighbor, how do they find out? Do parents know where to complain?
Today's NYT story points out that parents are more aware of the kinds of movies or TV shows that are attached to ratings because they tend to watch movies and TV shows. How many parents game or, more importantly, watch their kids do it? Since the only way to get penalties imposed is for someone to notice that violations are happening, I question the efficacy of ESRB pressure.
Does anyone know how often they send out Teen Mystery Squads to probe the defenses of retailers?
Troy
This was my actual suggestion:
but the meaning got lost in the 'funny' way I wrote my post.regulating what the minors are exposed to should be done more by their parents and less by the Man
It's the same here, and games fall under the same classification scheme as movies (so the labels are exactly the same, for games rated 16 and above, at least).
However, the problem seems to be that games just aren't seen in the same light as movies from a "defend the minor" perspective. About three weeks ago, during one lunchbreak I was in two game stores in Wellington. In both stores, I saw middle aged mums with teenage sons in tow, asking for copies of GTA San Andreas, and both said "I don't have a problem with it" to the sales guys.
Well, of course I totally agree with you then!
I do too, actually. But then I think that persists across R rated movies, alcohol, and tobacco as well, and there are various restrictions on those (legal or otherwise).Well, of course I totally agree with you then!
The question comes down to:
If it's such an issue to not have these things legislated, why isn't the games industry taking it in hand themselves? Clearly the MPAA has been largely successful in doing so, including in their ability to promote the perception that the ratings are reasonably solid restrictions on who should/shouldn't partake of the movies. Hell, even comic sellers have done a better job than game sellers for the R-rated (but not pornographic) stuff out there. So why is the game industry dropping the ball to the point that people still feel the need to legislate instead of self-policing?
The government made similar noises about regulating movies in the wake of Columbine. Since then theater owners have really cracked down on admittance to R-rated movies. It used to be that studios understood that most teenagers wouldn't have any issues getting access to R-rated movies and the huge number of slasher movies and Porky's rip-offs in the 80s were squarely aimed at the high school crowd that should technically have been too young to get in. Even in the early to mid 90s when these genres had fallen out of favor most actions flicks still had enough language and violence to ensure an R-rating. However, since theaters have cracked down there has been enormous pressure on studios to put out movies that with PG-13 that would once have warranted an R.Are the enforcement powers of the MPAA or ESRB meaningful in any way? Can either fine a chain, or do they simply go after a particular proprietor?
It probably wouldn't be the ESRB; it would be a group of retail owners, like the IEMA. You're a member if you want to sell games, and you agree to its rules.
The ESRB and IEMA could coordinate, so that if it was found that a particular publisher was skirting the law by getting M-rated games in the hands of kids through a retailer outside of the IEMA, maybe a fine would be levied.
I'm not entirely sure how all of this actually works, and probably need to look it up, but it seems reasonable. The trade group would be responsible for doing its own investigations, and making it clear that people can complain. Or all stores would be required to submit all complaints... I dunno how all of the specifics would work.
I don't think the ESRB has anything to do with retail. It's focused on the ratings and on marketing.
I found the ESRB service summary statement and it just polices the ratings and makes sure that all content is revealed to the ratings agency.
The IEMA doesn't seem to have any enforcement powers that I can see from their website. Just that they encourage members to comply with the recommendations of the ESRB and that more of their members are doing so.
So there appears to little if any monitoring of the system to make sure that retailers are educated about it and that the ratings are enforced by the industry.
The MPAA also seems to have few enforcement powers, though. The movie industry is self-policing, as are theaters. So I don't know if the MPAA could crack down on a movie house selling R rated tickets to minors.
So the software industry is just like the movie industry from what I can tell - completely reliant on the goodwill of developers, merchants and customers.
Troy
So that's what we can blame Aliens vs Predators on, basically?
Exactly- a PG-13 sequel to two franchises with a total of six R-Rated entries between them.So that's what we can blame Aliens vs Predators on, basically?
So do we want that? Or would a government solution that was just totally seperate game store sections for 18 and up allow for better games? because pg13 movies can kinda suck when they are action or horror. The only good pg13 horror flick is gremlins (or poltergeist but that was R then magically PG.)
It's not clear that minors have the same rights as adults in the U.S., Andrew, so I am not sure you are correct in applying the First Amendment here. For example, wouldn't a Penthouse letters mag also be banned from sale to minors, even if it doesn't have pics, but is "just words"? And the FCC DOES fine stations for language, etc. I just don't think the First Amendment is very clear anymore, or at least the govt. keeps finding ways to get around it. It's kind of troubling actually.
Still, I don't care what kids can or can't do as far as buying things. Parents can still buy these things FOR their kids if they want. This isn't really a ban on M rated games so much as a restriction on who can buy them.
OK, let me get this straight. You think a 10-year-old should be able to walk into a store and be able to buy Grand Theft Auto?
While I think the age of 18 is a little too high for M-rated games, I do believ that younger kids shoudl in no way be able to purchase M rated games. Otherwise, why even bother with the rating system? It'd be more usless than the one we see on tv.
Just aside from government censorships issues the result of the government imposing fines on stores that sold M-rated games to teens would likely be more stores reluctant to stock M-rated titles at all. Which is going to have a huge effect as more games try to change their content to get a T-Rating. This is already evident in titles like the Medal of Honor series that remove all blood to ensure a T-Rating. Remember a few years ago when Giants had to put tops on the the Sirens or something just to get copies into Walmart? IIRC the game still ended up with an M-Rating.
I noticed Lum's blog got name-checked on the Slashdot story about this.
I hope you paid your server bill, Lum.
but I thought the sweet spot demo for game buyers was age 18-35?Just aside from government censorships issues the result of the government imposing fines on stores that sold M-rated games to teens would likely be more stores reluctant to stock M-rated titles at all. Which is going to have a huge effect as more games try to change their content to get a T-Rating. This is already evident in titles like the Medal of Honor series that remove all blood to ensure a T-Rating. Remember a few years ago when Giants had to put tops on the the Sirens or something just to get copies into Walmart? IIRC the game still ended up with an M-Rating.
as for kids playing GTA, I have fond memories of watching the warriors, blood feast, the hills have eyes, texas chainsaw massacre, emanuelle goes to RANDOMCOUNTRYNAME, whatever on hbo and cinemax when I was a kid, along with playing leisure suit larry, reading my dads old playboys, reading stephen king novels and all that shit when I was like 8 or so.
Not that big a deal. I totally support a parent who says 'no, you cannot play that' to a child, but if the parents dont care what media the kid consumes, I think the kid will be fine unless something worse is already damaging him. I'd never buy my kid gta, but a) I'll never HAVE a kid, and b) if I did have a child, he'd be stuck on classic consoles until he was older, just for educational reasons. Game appreciation, I guess. "This here copy of Dragon Warrior was given to me by your grandpappy back in the 80s mah boy"
Posting Permissions