What makes a good shmup?

[mouselock]

(And when did shmup replace shooter? Something to do with those damn FPSs I'm sure. :evil: )

So, I've been agonizing over buying Gradius V now or later (after, inevitably, it sells to the four people out there who still like this game and therefore is pushing no more copies and the price drops). In the process, I've dug out all the old shmups I have lying around. I've waxed nostalgic about the heyday of shmups back on my Genesis and TurboGrafx (MonsterLair and especially Spriggan!) I've even given thought to acquiescing to that nagging desire I have to at least try to make a game by starting with something like a shmup where the underlying logic is reasonably simple.

All this of course leads to my question:

For fans of the game type, what is it that separates a good one from a bad one for you?

I've been playing Silpheed: Lost Worlds on the PS2 recently (because I got it and it was cheap) and not enjoying it all that much. I thought at first this was because of the lack of power-ups. However, I still adore Ikaruga (even if it kicks my ass) which has no power-ups. Traditionally, I prefer the ones with power-ups, but good games without them seem to be okay too. So for myself, I've come down to the following definitions:

- It must occurr on a forced playfield: I need the sense of urgency that keeping up with the scrolling brings. The top down shooters where I control where I go and when just never did it for me.

- Power ups are preferable: I like controlling how my power expands. If I know there's a level with annoying side-crawling enemies coming up, I want to be able to aim my firepower that direction. Preferably dynamically in the middle of a level. If the hardest thing for the level is a boss, I want to be able to frontload for the boss in terms of weapons and rely on my skills to make it past all the grunts.

- Nice ship/enemy design: If I'm going to have to look at 1.7e+16 enemy ships bearing down on me, they better be pretty spiffy looking.

- Ability to recover if you die: Death is inevitable. I hate games where I get to a certain point and die and that means it's time to reset because there's simply no chance of progression without the 17 consecutive power-ups I had previously collected in getting to that point. Replaying whole levels is bad. Replaying whole games is "Be forced to endure a Mary-Kate and Ashely" marathon bad. (I'm looking at you, Insector-X and Gaiares!)

[Moore]

I agree with your points, I'll also ad that while I don't NEED it, I strongly prefer 2 player shmups.

I REALLY like interesting power ups and weapons, the sword thing in r. silvergun is just so freakin' cool.

I'll also add 3 more- I love crazy backgrounds, I love quirky ships (dimahoo and esp.ra.de are awesome because it's people, not ships - the gore in esp.ra.de is very satisfying in a crimsonlandish way) and I really really want bullet visability to be easy if there are going to be hundreds on screen in crazy patterns at once.

[Nathan Phoenix]

All I want is G-Darius. That is all. The capture ball mechanic is awesome, especially with sub-bosses and breaking their armor off first.

[Moore]

BTW- zanac x zanac is great (playstation 1)

[Jon R.]

Pretty much any Shmup that isn't blatantly cheap. No point-blanking unless it's a turret or a boss, no constantly coming up from behind bullshit, a clearly defined hitbox, and no requiring the memorization of every inch to get anywhere. Bullets must be bright as day and have the highest draw priority. No cycling powerups like in Raiden. And for god's sake, the bomb MUST take effect instantly. After all that, there has to be something about the environments that are actually interesting. Without a decent concept to base that on, you more or less have something like rRootage: Decent enough mechanics with no soul.

Fun scoring systems are also a plus, as i've learned recently. Shmups where you play for survival are still really fun if the game's made well because you're trying to not die either way, but there's an extra "game" kinda feeling when it's about score as much as anything else. Take Cave, for example. They've constantly avoided stagnation by coming up with new ways for you to earn points. I'll be damned if i don't go back to Dangun Feveron time and time again even though i suck. See, all enemies were worth 1 point. Most of the time when you blew something up, these little disco men would fall from the enemies at a fairly slow pace, and picking them up would add a +1 to your score modifier for when you blew up more stuff. Collecting more disco men would also add to your score based on how many you'd collected up to that point. The catch is that once they hit the bottom of the screen, they turn orange and start floating back up, and if they went off the top of the screen, your bonus is reset to +0 putting you back to square 1. It had a fun theme and a scoring system that was easy to understand, but you really had to work for results as well. It made for a really fun flow because instead of dodging for survival, there was plenty of incentive to make a harebrained dash through some no-man's land of a barrage to grab one of those ridiculous disco men.

On the other side of the spectrum, there's Dimahoo, which i don't find to be fun at all due to the insanely convoluted scoring system. It was basically Diablo meets Shmup, with bonuses given for collecting entire sets of items which were random drops from enemies. Just overly chaotic when you have to dodge all manner of attacks AND suss out which items dropped from what. I've seen replays from people who know what they're doing and i sill can't figure out what the fuck's going on in that game. Whether it be for score or survival, things need to be as simple as possible so the player can concentrate on dodging stuff instead of fumbling around with items or weapons.

[Theodore Rex DX]

Giant fish monsters.

[McBain]

Agreed, any shmup that is hard but lacking cheap shots = ownage.

I've recently been turned on to the gravy that is the Strikers 1945 series. Oh, man, how the FUCK did I miss those? Oh, right, arcades here SUCK.

[Jon R.]

It is a solid series. Contrary to most survival shmups, i found the Strikers series to have about as nice a difficulty curve as you could hope for. Some games will just give you the first level, put you in deep water on the second, and ram it home from there on out. Strikers, particularly Plus and 1999 really ramp up nicely.

[mouselock]

I agree with your points, I'll also ad that while I don't NEED it, I strongly prefer 2 player shmups.

I REALLY like interesting power ups and weapons, the sword thing in r. silvergun is just so freakin' cool.

I'll also add 3 more- I love crazy backgrounds, I love quirky ships (dimahoo and esp.ra.de are awesome because it's people, not ships - the gore in esp.ra.de is very satisfying in a crimsonlandish way) and I really really want bullet visability to be easy if there are going to be hundreds on screen in crazy patterns at once.

Okay. I checked out both Dimahoo and esp.ra.de. And they're both nifty looking games.

But good god, is esp.ra.de actually PLAYABLE to anyone? I could get through the first level alright, and halfway through the second. I could see how someone who was far far better than I might get through to the third.. but after that the game is insane. I just flat out cannot believe that anyone can actually hone their skills to the point where progression in that game isn't achieved through continuously pumping credits into it. Not even a pre-pubescent teen kept hyped up by an intravenous coke drip could react fast enough and precisely enough to dodge the sheer quantity of bullets coming from those bosses. Is there a memorizable attack pattern or somesuch that I'm just not seeing? (For the most part, things seemed to track and shoot at me.. or more appropriately to track and shoot at my corpse.)

I like my shooters to at least provide the illusion that if I were to play that section another 10 times I might progress. Those things are worse than the worst Genesis shooters ever were, however. I assume much of that is due to the arcade nature?

[Wobbo]

I agree with everything mouselock said, and i LIKE cycling powerups

I would like more that involve "buying" powerups like Tyrian and Raptor (oooooold school)

One thing to add

GOOD MUSIC

this is true in shmups more than most other games, although it applies to all my games purchases

[McBain]

I always hated cycling powerups, to be honest.

Oh, one other thing I like: in most Psyiko shooters you can detach your turrets and have them fly/shoot on their own. I love that shit.

[Jon R.]

But good god, is esp.ra.de actually PLAYABLE to anyone? I could get through the first level alright, and halfway through the second. I could see how someone who was far far better than I might get through to the third.. but after that the game is insane. I just flat out cannot believe that anyone can actually hone their skills to the point where progression in that game isn't achieved through continuously pumping credits into it. Not even a pre-pubescent teen kept hyped up by an intravenous coke drip could react fast enough and precisely enough to dodge the sheer quantity of bullets coming from those bosses. Is there a memorizable attack pattern or somesuch that I'm just not seeing? (For the most part, things seemed to track and shoot at me.. or more appropriately to track and shoot at my corpse.)

This isn't a genre where you can typically get through a game in 1 credit the first few times out, but yes there are always patterns that allow you to herd aimed shots and prepare for volleys. It sounds strange, but you really do get used to it after a while, and manic shmups like ESP Ra.De. usually get better as you get better. You could hunt around for replays at http://marp.retrogames.com/ or something, but it's a waste of time if the game doesn't have something you particularly like to begin with.

I like my shooters to at least provide the illusion that if I were to play that section another 10 times I might progress. Those things are worse than the worst Genesis shooters ever were, however. I assume much of that is due to the arcade nature?

More or less. The games are usually 4-8 stages long, so things really have to last because of that too.

[Nathan Phoenix]

I can get through ESP Ra De with about 4 to 8 credits, depending on who I play as... I think that's pretty average. The key is to hold out and use your super at the last possible second before you die when you're fighting the bosses, but for the most part you can find the patterns and just avoid the shots. The last level of that game cracks me up when you run into all the clone girls....

I've played all the way through Raiden 2 on one quarter, but that's mainly because I've memorized the game from overplay.

And good music is a very, very key thing. I was pretty thrilled to unlock a Gradius theme remix during my last DDRMAX2 session. Great, great music.

[Nathan Phoenix]

I can get through ESP Ra De with about 4 to 8 credits, depending on who I play as... I think that's pretty average. The key is to hold out and use your super at the last possible second before you die when you're fighting the bosses, but for the most part you can find the patterns and just avoid the shots. The last level of that game cracks me up when you run into all the clone girls....

I've played all the way through Raiden 2 on one quarter, but that's mainly because I've memorized the game from overplay.

ESP Ra De is a nice challenge, but if you want a hard shooter, look for Einhander on the PSX.

And good music is a very, very key thing. I was pretty thrilled to unlock a Gradius theme remix during my last DDRMAX2 session. Great, great music.

[Thomas Wilde]

It's possible to do quite well at ESPrade if you're very good and have the hand-eye coordination of a brain surgeon. Hunt up some Japanese gameplay videos.

(I'm still reeling from that video where some guy plays two-player Ikaruga, one ship with either hand, and beats the game stupid.)

As for shoot-'em-ups: instant respawn upon death. R-Type is no fun to me entirely because it throws you back a bit, to the worst possible part of the level, with no powerups.

[mouselock]

It's possible to do quite well at ESPrade if you're very good and have the hand-eye coordination of a brain surgeon. Hunt up some Japanese gameplay videos.

(I'm still reeling from that video where some guy plays two-player Ikaruga, one ship with either hand, and beats the game stupid.)

Got a link? I should see this I think. :)

Oh, and it turns out it's not nearly so hard if I bother to plug in the game pad instead of using the keyboard. Tomorrow I'll have to see about buying a decent gamepad to use instead of the crappy old-style sidewinder I currently have. (Anyone know of any decent gamepads that have the analog sticks or digital sticks like analog sticks yet also have the 3 face buttons like the sidewinder? I wouldn't mind getting a little bit of fighting game going too in between the shooter recuperation periods.)

[Jon R.]

If you're going for a new controller and you want to go with fighting games as well, you might want to look into getting a fighting stick. Shmups benefit from them just as much as fighting games do.

[Tyjenks]

Am I the only ignorant one here re: shmup? I understand what type of game it is, but a brief lesson on its origins would be appreciated. Am I that much out of the loop?

[mouselock]

Am I the only ignorant one here re: shmup? I understand what type of game it is, but a brief lesson on its origins would be appreciated. Am I that much out of the loop?

We're talking about what, before the advent of the FPS, used to simply be termed shooters. I can't tell you how folks decided on shmup, but it's a contraction of shoot-em-up, which I guess was felt to be a more specific moniker necessary after the whole doom thing to differentiate first person shooters from the standard vertical/sidescrolling (and occasional head on) shooters. Famous examples include Darius, Thunderforce, the 194x series, etc..

[mouselock]

If you're going for a new controller and you want to go with fighting games as well, you might want to look into getting a fighting stick. Shmups benefit from them just as much as fighting games do.

I looked at the X-Stick or whatever it was, and it definitely looks nice. (And the fact that I could play Children of the Atom and/or the Darkstalkers Secret would be a definite bonus.) Not sure I'm ready for a $100 outlay at the moment though. A new pad is only $20 in case I lose interest.

Although I'd forgotten how much I enjoy the simplicity of arcade game design vs. the convoluted and harder (for me) to get into console and PC games. This obsession may have some staying power.

[curst]

Wow, thanks for the suggestions on arcade SHMUPs. All I've played recently are a bunch of wacky ones offered in the PC freeware scene, and I haven't paid attention to stuff like Dangun Feveron or ESPrade. I've also played the Silpheed for the PS2 and Ikaruga on the Gamecube, but they're... good but not great IMO. I hope Gradius V is a big improvement.

As far as the freeware shmup scene goes, Cho Ren Sha 68K has become one of my all-time favorite games over the past couple of years. I still can't get past "Level 2-3" on my first credit, but I've steadily improved over time. The game is basically sensory overload - you get tons of enemies thrown at you, you're given the firepower to deal with them, and everything blows up like crazy while surprisingly decent J-pop music blares in the background. Even though it seemingly has Time Pilot 84-era graphics at first glance, I think the animation is very slick and the enemy design is mostly very well done.

It also has the best easter egg I've seen in almost any game ever: install a fresh copy in its own new directory, start the game from that directory, but don't actually play it. Just sit at the main menu until the demo runs. (If you actually start a game, you'll overwrite the current demo file with a new file that records your new game.) You'll see this insanely l33t d00d win the entire game on one credit. I have a hard time saying it's more impressive than something like the SF3 Daigo video, but CRS68K might be the toughest shmup I've ever played, so this demo left me in awe.

And while rRootage (plus all the other minimalist-graphics games made by that fellow) may lack a "soul", the mechanics are pretty solid and the action is usually uber-hectic. More than anything else, I enjoy feeling a sense of pure chaos in shmups, and this guy delivers. I play NOIZ2SA's Infinite Insane mode at least once a day, partially because I'll usually die within five minutes, but also because it's so captivating.

[John Many Jars]

Am I the only ignorant one here re: shmup? I understand what type of game it is, but a brief lesson on its origins would be appreciated. Am I that much out of the loop?

We're talking about what, before the advent of the FPS, used to simply be termed shooters. I can't tell you how folks decided on shmup, but it's a contraction of shoot-em-up, which I guess was felt to be a more specific moniker necessary after the whole doom thing to differentiate first person shooters from the standard vertical/sidescrolling (and occasional head on) shooters. Famous examples include Darius, Thunderforce, the 194x series, etc..

So it's every style from Galaga to Xevious to Sidearms to Elevator Action and Contra (to use the oldest examples of the respective styles that I can think of)?

[mouselock]

So it's every style from Galaga to Xevious to Sidearms to Elevator Action and Contra (to use the oldest examples of the respective styles that I can think of)?

Actually, that's a good question. I personally wouldn't include Elevator Action and Contra, but I'm not sure how others break those out. To me there's a big difference between a game where you have a physics based (i.e. platform) freedom of movement and true freedom of movement in the directions. Though EA and Contra are certainly shooting games.

On another note, I need more suggestions for the arcade shooters guys. Dimahoo, ESPrade, the Strikers Series, G-Darius are all good, but more to play would be nice. (Preferably one of the better sidescrollers, as the first three sets cover vertical very nicely IMO.)

[Moore]

So it's every style from Galaga to Xevious to Sidearms to Elevator Action and Contra (to use the oldest examples of the respective styles that I can think of)?

Actually, that's a good question. I personally wouldn't include Elevator Action and Contra, but I'm not sure how others break those out. To me there's a big difference between a game where you have a physics based (i.e. platform) freedom of movement and true freedom of movement in the directions. Though EA and Contra are certainly shooting games.

On another note, I need more suggestions for the arcade shooters guys. Dimahoo, ESPrade, the Strikers Series, G-Darius are all good, but more to play would be nice. (Preferably one of the better sidescrollers, as the first three sets cover vertical very nicely IMO.)

I wouldnt include elevator action, but I'd include the contras, alien soldier, gunstar heroes etc.... If it's a platformer with SHITLOADS of shooting and shmup style powerups, I'll lump it in with the shmups.

[Jon R.]

Touching base with the original topic real quick, one thing i realized i hate is a shmup that has lame ship movement. I also dislike having to grab speedups, but it's even worse when you don't have them and you're stuck with a default speed that's too slow.

Actually, that's a good question. I personally wouldn't include Elevator Action and Contra, but I'm not sure how others break those out. To me there's a big difference between a game where you have a physics based (i.e. platform) freedom of movement and true freedom of movement in the directions. Though EA and Contra are certainly shooting games.

Games like Contra and Metal Slug a considered borderline usually. They're close enough, but no one really cares so much as to nitpick where they fall in the spectrum.

On another note, I need more suggestions for the arcade shooters guys. Dimahoo, ESPrade, the Strikers Series, G-Darius are all good, but more to play would be nice. (Preferably one of the better sidescrollers, as the first three sets cover vertical very nicely IMO.)

There's Gradius 3, Salamander 2, Sexy Parodius, and Sengoku Blade. Blazing Star seems to be pretty fun too.

There are still a few more notable arcade verts, like Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, the Donpachi series, Space Bomber, the Vasara series, and Guwange.

[Moore]

Salamander 2 is awesome.

Look for anything by Cave or Raizing (8ing) almost all are excellent.

[curst]

Blazing Star is very fun, but it's so staggeringly difficult. I don't know why, but I can't survive more than maybe three stages before needing continues when I go solo, and when double-teaming, we have yet to win on one try. The final boss is patently ridiculous.

Sexy Parodius = solid shmup + LSD + LSD + LSD + shrooms + some more LSD.

[mouselock]

Okay, so now I'm looking for an example of a shooter that people consider cheap. I was playing Blazing Star and I thought some of the setups in that game were incredibly cheap. (Placing enemies in literally unreachable positions behind the environment so that you had to let them shoot at you from behind, forcing you into passageways with no room for maneuvering with turrets at the end that fire down the axis of the passageway, etc.. ). Overall not bad, but there were some sections that just struck me as patently unfair (especially the passageway thing, although it was thankfully brief in nature). So if this is one of the good ones, I'm interested in seeing what the cheap ones actually do. :)

[Jon R.]

Battle fucking Garegga. It wasn't cheap because of the patterns specifically, but because of the rank system behind it. See, the higher your "rank", the tougher the game gets. With Garegga, pretty much everything you do raises your rank. Even shooting, or grabbing powerups which brings your rank up in huge chunks. Playing through the game in one credit involves, unbelievably enough, strategic suicides to bring the rank back down since it's entirely possible for the game to throw you patterns that are literally impossible if you play perfectly. On top of that, a lot of the bullets were actual bullets. Not wonderfully visible brights blobs, but brass-looking, narrow bullets. And the cherry on top is that the game has a lot of debris flying around when you kill stuff.

Invader for the GBA also feels cheap because not only will mobile enemies point-blank you, they'll do it while coming from behind in streams.

There's this random boss rush stage in Sexy Parodius that i always thought was remarkably cheap. It's something you'd expect to find in the last level of a shooter, but it's possible to run into it after the 3rd stage.

Sengeki Strikers. This game feels like it's on the 2nd loop right off the bat. It's actually kind of exciting because the hitbox is reasonable once you find where it is, but the bosses are ridiculous. You can herd expertly and not find a gap. There is no reason to believe that anyone can pass the second stage on 1 credit.

Most of the time, cheapness comes in single elements rather than being a major part of a whole game. Things like bosses having a huge laser that fires with little or no chargeup. Things that could cause the player to die without it really being his fault, or in the case of Garegga, overly penalizing him for doing well.

[mouselock]

Most of the time, cheapness comes in single elements rather than being a major part of a whole game. Things like bosses having a huge laser that fires with little or no chargeup. Things that could cause the player to die without it really being his fault, or in the case of Garegga, overly penalizing him for doing well.

So basically after you've tried enough to get a feel for the game, if you still leave an encounter thinking "Dammit, I don't see anything I could do differently and it would have made a difference?" (There's lots of stuff at this point where I'll think "Okay, shouldn't lead shots that way, need to remember to do this instead." Most of the stuff I run into doesn't leave me thinking "Well, what the fuck am I supposed to do here?" But the passageway in Blazing Star did, because you have to go through it, and there's always a cannon at the end, and unless I'm missing something it will always start firing before you have a chance to actually shoot at it. Maybe it's possible to hang back, throw some bullets at it, wait for the passage to clear, and then go through, but that's akin to bordering on the superhuman from what I can tell with the slow-ish ship control.)

Not that I'm not enjoying the hell out of all of them anyway. It's been too long since there've been good shmups readily available for consoles/at arcades, and I feel like I've just stumbled across the lot out in the desert where all Atari's 2600 ET cartridges are buried, except instead of crappy games it's shmups and they're all set on free play.