So what is it about a game that makes it fun? I've been trying to put my finger on it and just can't seem to find the answer. Innovation, graphics, story, loot, design, having all these things and more come together can certainly help, but even then there is no guarantee the game is going to hit the right note for you.
I think of some of the really well recieved games that have come out over the years that most everyone loved and I didn't and I can never quite point my finger at why. Same goes for some of the games that most other people didn't like and I did.
What is that magic something that keeps us staying up later than we should on a worknight playing one more turn, trying for one more level?
The problem, drunkagain, is that 'fun' doesn't mean anything. It's an entirely subjective and largely meaningless word that people fall back on when other words fail them.
I dare anyone to contribute to this thread without using the word 'fun'! See if you're up to the task. :)
-Tom
Uh oh, you used the word "fun" -- Tom Chick will be along shortly to chew you out.
Fun is such a terrible word since it's used to convey a number of things, ranging from operant conditioning, to sensory stimulation, to emotional response. The reason you can't put your finger on it is because it isn't an it, it's a they. (Whee, fun with pronouns!)
- Alan
EDIT: Well that was quick -- it looks like Tom already paid a visit...
You're just daring DrCrypt to respond, aren't you? :DI dare anyone to contribute to this thread without using the word 'fun'! See if you're up to the task. :)
But I agree, what's fun is entirely subjective, so instead let me ask what aspect of the game design contributes most to your enjoyment of a game. But even then that's not quite right because sometimes a game seems to do everything right, Deus Ex for example, and it jsut dosen't work for me. What's missing?
I can like games for different reasons. I like RPGs because they create a sense of anticipation in me. I am always looking to do one more task -- one more level, one more piece of loot, one more region to discover, one more quest to complete. As in real life you are motivated by a desire for advancement and for rewards, for becoming "better" at things, for becoming a bigger player. But it is easier than real life and the gratification comes a lot quicker.
I like certain action games because they put me into a certain zen state that is not unlike playing a musical instrument or playing a sport. This is a kind of kinesthetic pleasure.
I like other games quite simply because they are gorgeous to look at. I am a proud graphics whore and have been for a quarter of a century. When great graphics are put on top of otherwise solid gameplay it makes it that much better. And really great graphics can sometimes salvage mediocre gameplay (please don't shoot me for saying so).
That is far from a complete response but it's all that is coming to mind at this moment.
Fun is immersion and suspension of disbelief.
I dunno. I still love playing Demon Attack for the Atari 2600 from time to time. I don't think disbelief is being suspended. I guess you can say it is "immersive" in the sense that I am wholly paying attention to the game while I am playing it, but not in the sense that it has an atmosphere that draws me into it. It is pure gameplay mechanics, X's and O's, blips and bloops.
Gordon wins the dare!
Yep. Pacing.I like RPGs because they create a sense of anticipation in me. I am always looking to do one more task
Good call. I don't know if there's a buzzword for that one!I like certain action games because they put me into a certain zen state that is not unlike playing a musical instrument or playing a sport. This is a kind of kinesthetic pleasure.
Yep. Aestehetics.I like other games quite simply because they are gorgeous to look at.
See, and he didn't have to fall back on 'fun'!
To be fair, there's nothing wrong with the word 'fun'. But it's pretty sad to see so many writers use the word and then leave it at that, as if they'd actually made some sort of meaningful statement instead of dumping a lazy word on the table and walking away. My favorite stupid criticism goes like this: "The graphics are good, the sound is fine, the AI is decent, but it just isn't fun." As if that means anything...
And don't get me started on Deus Ex, drunkagain. :)
-Tom
But Deus Ex was fun! :POriginally Posted by TomChick
He used the F-word....
well... not that F-word.
I wish had the word "fun" less in reviews and more of the original f-word.
That will surely make the reviews more fun.
-Shiroko
Fast, frenetic action feeling in games with no rape play or bath guys.
Reward? Why do people do anything? To evoke a response. Games seem to be about evoking a response through the framework of reward. If they were just about the story, for instance, why wouldn't people just read a book or watch a movie?
Definitive goals to acheive in a original way, bright lights (graphics) can contribute to bringing the gamer pleasure.
Not to derail the thread but: Bath Guys? Did I miss games getting weirder?
Mark L.
Also the lack of a reward or rather making it difficult (but not too difficult) to gain that reward. It's like gambling, people keep going back for more because they continuously (for the most part) are denied the reward (of more money). The reward is important enough to that person to keep giving up what they have to obtain that reward. In the case of games, the currency is time.
http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2...ight=rape+play
I notice "rape play" went right by your weirdness radar, though. KOONTZ?
Zazz!
I don't think I can answer the question, I really have no idea what makes me have fun while playing a game - I don't think it can be boiled down, because while I have fun playing Pikmin 2, I don't think it's the same fun I get from silent storm, or puyo puyo or gradius. Each is its own 'fun'
Yes, I think a story is generally a peripheral thing in videogames, a kind of window dressing. At least in the ones I like.
Of course, any reward you can get in a videogame might seem a little hollow since it will probably just amount to "more gameplay." The game rewards you for playing it with more of itself. There is something sort of futile and circular about it all. But maybe the same can be said for life (deep, eh?).
When a game rewards you with more gameplay it does add a wrinkle. Oh look, you learned a new spell, now you can get the endorphin rush watching it cut a swathe through your enemies. This is a good RPG hook. (Ditto new weapon, new magic item, yada yada.) And then there is simply the reward of a new environment, the "next level," something new to see. This can tie back into the sheer aesthetic pleasure of good graphics, but it doesn't have to (e.g. I enjoy being "rewarded" with the chance to explore a new region in Avernum even though its graphics are godawful).
Of course some games reward you with pretty screenshots and cutscenes and such. I'm reminded of the famous ending to Chris Crawford's "Balance of Power" if you cause nuclear armageddon. "There are no pictures of explosions and flying body parts. We do not reward failure."
Haha. Rape Play went by my weirdness radar because I am familiar with such Japanese games by reputation, although I have never been "lucky" enough to actually play one!
Mark L
edited for grammar.
Andrew Mayer's definition of what makes a game fun:
Artful Frustration
A game is fun when you lose track of time when you're playing it, suddenly noticing that it's (say) 2:45 in the AM. I think 'absorption' is a good word for it - it spans the gap between Puzzle Bobble, Medieval Total War and Painkiller - all of which ( I humbly submit) are more capital 'F' Fun than a barrel of monkeys. There are different types of absorption- some games involve your body (fast paced FPS) others your mind (cerebral TBS).
'Fun' just means 'Good' - exactly the same as saying a piece of (uh oh) art is 'Good'. A piece of art is good if it takes you out of time. That's a personal reaction - you know it when you see it/hear it/play it, other people might not agree, but it's not just a subjective irrelevance. You can break down the reasons why it's fun, but not as a simple laundry list - the fun is an emergent property, easier to see in retrospect than to create.
IMO the only way to "objectively" determine fun is to see what sticks around. Diablo 2 and Civ are 'fun'. I agree with Tom that it's a pretty meaningless term in a review without elucidation, because it is only really speaking about the reviewers experience.
It's fun if I don't lose interest in a day.
How's that?
Not necessarilly, although I grant you it is rare. I for one played (and loved) KOTOR almost entirely because of both the story and the characters.
I agree with Tom that "fun" is a word that depends on an individual's aesthetics, and therefore make it of limited use in communicating ideas. That said, though, I think there is some value in talking about what we find fun about games.
I like the feeling that my actions in the game matter. This feeling takes many forms- I loved how in Avernum 3, for example, it was up to me to save the towns, or they would be conquered and destroyed. Likewise, I loved the Fallout games, and Planescape Torment, for similar reasons.
Another thing I like is "consistency". This is a very fuzzy area- My best way of describing it is that I like it when things work "how they should". A perfect example would be a post someone, maybe Tom, recently made about Kohan. In Kohan, flanking units don't just give numerical bonuses but rather cause the kind of reactions flanking units should cause- i.e. you rip apart their support units, isolate and overwhelm the front line, etc. This is one reason I am really looking forward to Rome: Total War- not because I expect ultra-realism, but because I can use "real" tactics that make sense to me. R:TW looks like it has a great morale modelling system too, which I think is totally essential to that sort of game. I wish it played a bigger role in Kohan.
Finally, yeah, I'm gonna have to second frantic action feeling. I desperately want to play Painkiller, but my system can't handle it. Someday.......
Mark L
Greetings:
Actually, it's called "flow". Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote a pretty well-known piece on it.
Other thoughts:
I'm sick of the word "immersion". It's overly limiting. I may be fully aware that I'm playing a game and still discover that I've lost hours upon hours while playing it. I like to think of it as "engagement", that critical friction point where the game has enough traction that you want to keep trying to beat it, but not so much that it stops you dead in your tracks.
Chris Crawford has some good analysis of why players perceive games as "fun" in The Art of Computer Game Design and it's free.
If you're not already familiar with it, you should check out Richard Bartle's typology of players. It says a lot about why different people find fun in different experiences.
There's no definitive version of "fun", but it's not like people aren't trying to answer the question.
Michael.
Joel didn't write that. :wink:Not necessarilly, although I grant you it is rare. I for one played (and loved) KOTOR almost entirely because of both the story and the characters.
Fair point on KOTOR. It is one of the very few games I have played where I actually enjoyed the cutscenes for their own sake (Starcraft is another). And yeah, the plot/characters -- especially Bastila and HK-47 -- added a lot.
Having said that though, KOTOR had some solid CRPG fundamentals. I liked its combat system and it had a nice (albeit rather linear) quest/subquest structure. Also a good leveling hook because of the force powers you acquire. I just wish there'd been a better loot element with more interesting unique items that you could use earlier in the game. The light-saber configuration stuff was kinda neat but the payoff (how different sabers accomplished different things) never seemed tangible enough to me.
/hoping Ebonstone or a sockpuppet incarnation of him isn't around...
Me too but I like it even better when these things can happen in a nonscripted way. Which is still pretty rare.I like the feeling that my actions in the game matter.
The word "fun", particularly when used in game reviews, is often like the word "love" in that both are singular words that can mean different things depending on the context.
maybe... "Transcendental" ?I like certain action games because they put me into a certain zen state that is not unlike playing a musical instrument or playing a sport. This is a kind of kinesthetic pleasure.
Good call. I don't know if there's a buzzword for that one!
A game is fun when the developers "just get it".
/chick redefinition.
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