Reply With QuoteOkay, who here honestly thinks Id didn't think of this? It's a gameplay mechanic. A really stupid one that I'm not sure why I'm defending, but still...
Okay, who here honestly thinks Id didn't think of this? It's a gameplay mechanic. A really stupid one that I'm not sure why I'm defending, but still...
I approve this as the most useful mod to any game perhaps of all time. Period. Not to mention, very funny.Originally Posted by Jakub
Gamers do understand its a gameplay device, they just dont like it. And I am sure Id was made aware of this a million times over, and chose to ignore it.
olaf
I'm a gamer, and I like it.
My friends are gamers, and they like it.
Do we not count?
I think we should all just say it's a "love-it-or-hate-it" game and leave it like that.
The mechanic that is already in the game is fine, it just needed a better implementation. For instance, if you could make it so that when your flashlight was up, firing switched to a weapon and actually fired, and then when it stopped firing, went back to the flashlight, that would have been nice and useful.
Here's what REALLY should have been done...
With the PISTOL in hand, you could bring up the flashlight (or not) and keep the pistol out. Other weapons, being 2-handed, don't have a flashlight option. Suddenly the pistol becomes a worthy weapon.
I understand this as a gameplay option much in the way I understand that no human being can carry six or eight longarms at once and walk much less one w/ a pistol. But the darkness does seem a bit overdone for a shooter which invaribaly this is. This is "Doom" after all, not "Alone in the Dark" and considering every modern day pistol, rifle and shotgun can be mounted with a 5 dollar flashlight I understand why people find it a bit absurd.
Most importantly, like someone else mentioned would it have been any more or less scary to see something jumping in and out of a narrow beam of light then just plain old darkness? I'm guessing not much difference scare wise, but I will certainly find out now and report back.
I think the reason folks have problems with it is that the designers created an unresolvable conflict.
1) You need to see in order to stay alive.
2) Much of the game is too dark to see.
3) You need the flashlight active in order to see in the dark.
4) You need to shoot in order to stay alive.
5) Much of the level contains enemies that attack you.
6) You need to have a weapon equipped in order to shoot.
7) You cannot have the flashlight and a weapon equipped at the same time.
Those rules, all in play at the same time, give me two conditions I need to fulfill simultaneously in order to stay alive (see and shoot) and then won't let me do them simultaneously. While you want to create interesting choices for the player, you usually don't want to create them in a way that pits conflicting interests against each other when they are both requirements for the same effect.
It's exacerbated by the final rule:
8) We will place most enemies in the dark areas.
Really, even if the gun has a flashlight equipped, you still need to find the enemy in the dark before you can shoot them. I don't think a flashlight on the end of the gun breaks the gameplay at all - there's enough corners and hidden areas for monsters to hide in to keep the tension up.
Laralyn, how is this any different from say, Civilization, where you need to build units to defend your cities, but you also need to build temples and granaries and aqueducts and wonders?
But IS it, though? In the words of the Official Strategy Guide:
Well, Doom and Doom II certainly were run'n'gun games, and here's Doom 3 telling us that it is no longer that. Certainly there are elements of familiarity with the previous Doom games, primarily with the weapons, setting and cast of bad guys, but as a game it seems more of an attempt (albeit a half-baked one) to create some kind of first-person survival-horror experience.Doom 3 is not a run'n'gun game. It requires strategy, observational skills, and most of all, patience. Doom 3 is designed to scare the hell out of you and cause you to make stupid mistakes.
LOL. This is the best one yet, Matt. Go on, do the Pac-Man one again.
Muzzleflashes create light and I really don't find the flashlight even necessary for many areas of the game. Certainly you get attacked when you do come across a dark area, but I would say that less than half the enounters require using the flashlight to spot the things.
Gallant- Are you just joking around on us? I'm told I lack a sense of humor, but that Civilization thing was really pretty funny. Here's a better one:
"How is that any different than real life, where you need to both eat and sleep?"
Guys, just refrain from the "humor" and go ahead and tell me how light vs. gun is any different a choice from library vs. spearman.
In the example you give, you're spending a resource (time) toward multiple goals. It can only go toward one goal at a time, so you choose the goal that's most important to you, then build toward the next goal when you can use the resource again.
In Doom 3, you're spending a resource (what you hold in your hand) toward a single goal (staying alive) that can only be handled well if you apply two resources to it (seeing and shooting). Both the requirements for meeting the single goal are exclusive uses of the resource. That creates a conflict.
Matt, the humor was an attempt to highlight how absurd your comparison is -- much as your Pac-Man/Rainbow Six comparison was. But if you just want it in plain English: there's a big difference between managing disparate strategic considerations in a turn-based strategy game in which scenarios unfold over hours and days, and the tactile nightmare of constantly fiddling back and forth between inventory items because it's too dark to see and defend yourself at the same time in an action game built on immediacy. This is almost one of those things that's too hard to explain because it's so self-evident there's rarely any need to actually put it into words. Until now, I guess.
It's hard, at this stage, to believe you're not trolling.
I don't think you can say the only goal in Doom 3 is "staying alive". Technically, that would make the only goal of Civilization "winning the game". The flashlight lets you search the dark corners, where better ammo and extra med kits are found, and it lets you draw a bead on zombies in the dark before firing. The weapons make it so you need less med kits because you are more quick to defend yourself, but sometimes you may have to fire a few shots blind (but you can still hear). It's a tradeoff, not a conflict.
Well that flew over your head, because that was only to show how absurd your comaprison of "Doom 3==Doom+better graphics" was.Matt, the humor was an attempt to highlight how absurd your comparison is -- much as your Pac-Man/Rainbow Six comparison was.
Yes, one is a strategic choice and one is a tactical choice; one requires a lot of measured thought and one requires quick decision making. Of course they are different choices, but how is one any better or more game-like than the other?there's a big difference between managing disparate strategic considerations in a turn-based strategy game in which scenarios unfold over hours and days, and the tactile nightmare of constantly fiddling back and forth between inventory items because it's too dark to see and defend yourself at the same time in an action game built on immediacy.
You've been the lady-in-waiting to Chet's drama queen up until this point, so this is pretty funny.It's hard, at this stage, to believe you're not trolling.
Because it's irritating to have to keep switching back and forth all the time. Irritating the player is not a function of good game design.
I think the earlier suggestions that the pistol could have been used in conjunction with the flashlight (much as you see cops/FBI agents use when they bust down doors into darkened rooms), or a flashlight fixed to the standard machine-gun would have been the best compromise. Neither of those weapons are very potent, but at least you'd have something. It amazes me that id missed this. I think they were too pre-occupied with scaring the player to consider what a peeve this would turn out to be. In any case, I think the sweeping flashlight beam creates a scarier effect than darkness alone -- if I could keep a weapon ready at the same time, I'd have more of an incentive to use it.
I'm now officially halfway through the game. So far I haven't managed to play for more than 30 minutes at a time because the repetetive nature of the action becomes crushingly dull after about that time. And I'm really getting sick of monsters spawning right on top of me and/or right behind me. These are cheap shots at the player that make the game tougher, but not any more fun.
As a buddy of mine (another non-believer) said to me earlier, "The pattern is so set now that when I get attacked from the front, I immediately turn around so I can fight the monster who spawned behind me." It's this kind of repetetive predictability that's dragging the game down for me.
I didn't like it to start with. Now, with a few more hours under my belt, I love it. Nothing quite so scary as creeping around, suddenly catching a shape looming out of the darkness in the beam of your flashlight and then scrambling for a gun. If anything, I actually wish it took longer than a couple of seconds to switch from flashlight to weapon.
You're exaggerating. You don't have to switch back and forth all the time. And it's not like it's something that stops the game, like having to repair a weapon in System Shock 2. You just push a button. You're pretty much just begging for it to be like every other FPS at the same time you're chiding it for being like every other FPS, and it's silly.Because it's irritating to have to keep switching back and forth all the time. Irritating the player is not a function of good game design.
The pistol is the optimal weapon for the spiders. They usually crawl into view from far away a couple at a time, and two shots from the pistol kills them. The machine gun works great against lost souls. The pistol is pretty good too.I think the earlier suggestions that the pistol could have been used in conjunction with the flashlight (much as you see cops/FBI agents use when they bust down doors into darkened rooms), or a flashlight fixed to the standard machine-gun would have been the best compromise. Neither of those weapons are very potent, but at least you'd have something.
They didn't miss it, they just didn't bank on people being so vocal about having to deal with something new.It amazes me that id missed this. I think they were too pre-occupied with scaring the player to consider what a peeve this would turn out to be.
So you like the upside of the flashlight and don't like the downside. Well, sure. It'd be pretty cool if you had a robot buddy with you the entire time and there was a health station in every room, too. Some people don't want a game that forces you into the shallow end.In any case, I think the sweeping flashlight beam creates a scarier effect than darkness alone -- if I could keep a weapon ready at the same time, I'd have more of an incentive to use it.
It isn't cheap. Snipertown in Medal of Honor is cheap (enemy snipers in any game are cheap). A short fuse grenade tossed down a stairwell in Max Payne is cheap. In Doom 3, 95% of the time, I can live through monsters spawning behind me, sometimes without taking damage, because they always make some sort of sound before they attack. The other 5%, well, I'm just not super good at FPS games and I'm playing on normal instead of easy. If things coming at you in front of you is so vital, I think maybe what you want is Virtua Cop or Time Crisis. But maybe you can find something to complain about with that, too, like they pop up from behind cover too fast.I'm really getting sick of monsters spawning right on top of me and/or right behind me. These are cheap shots at the player that make the game tougher, but not any more fun.
Well, stop playing then. Sell the game on eBay and recoup some money. I'm not saying you have to like the game, just that your complaints are usually exaggerated and sometimes contradict other things you say.As a buddy of mine (another non-believer) said to me earlier, "The pattern is so set now that when I get attacked from the front, I immediately turn around so I can fight the monster who spawned behind me." It's this kind of repetetive predictability that's dragging the game down for me.
Talk about the perfect example for that designing games for the wage slave piece.
Speaking of modifying gamma etc, it takes a pretty jaded gamer to immediately disable a key aspect of the game and then run around like an art critic and expect their opinion of what remains to be significant in the context of overall gameplay evaluation. Sure it makes for interesting discussion, but it's not very relevant.
It pretty much ends at "I don't like/can't deal with/don't want to deal with darkness". Perhaps that just means this isn't your game... no big deal. I personally never got past opening moments in order to enjoy certain other games (like robotic frogs or whacking chickens with a crowbar).
Sound design received alot of attention, and serves well to make up for reduced visibility - if you use it. But of course the minute you flip on the lights for yourself, you reduce your dependance on sound and won't be as likely to tune your senses towards that.
Don't like hitting F to cycle between seeing and shooting? Just wait until later, when you can't even do that... /evil laugh
When the lights dim and a monster teleports in in front of you, you're *supposed* to be thinking about his buddy behind you. That's not a revelation.
It's not all roses though. For example, I really hate those damn babies. And trap doors behind trap doors... /fistshake
I'm the olny one too scared to be able to play. I feel the game like a torture.
Uhm, what? Oh, right the whole "guns vs butter" thing. We're talking about a fps shooter game where ray charles FNG esq. is killing hellspawn not strategies for the rise of Rome and defeating its enemies.
You guys are all pussies, the flashlight thing is just fine. Here's an idea: map Right Mouse to "flashlight."
Maybe it's all the "iron sights" shooters I'm used to playing, but I just can't see getting so put off about having to hit one extra button before firing the weapon. Incidentally, I agree that Doom 3 isn't neccessarily innovative or original, but it still kicks ass. At least on Veteran difficulty.
I agree. After the Alpha Labs I kept my flashlight equipted probably less than 10% of the time. I'd break it out now and then to peek into a dark area, and then switch back to my weapon of choice. I have yet to be hosed because I had my flashlight out and couldn't get to my weapon in time. Click mousebutton 2 to switch and then start pumping lead into whatever badass is in front of me. No problem!
Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment I was worried I might have to trust my own instincts as an experienced gamer which told me that the mechanic was contrived and awkward.
I have already been in enough fights which occurred in total blackness, in which there is no feasible way to draw an enemy into silhouette. They're rare, to be sure. But I find it ludicrous that a first person shooter ever would have thought having enemies you can't see would be an acceptable mechanic.
The player reaction is so obviously going to be polarized between either finding it a refreshing and immersive mechanic or finding it an irritating contrivance that id really should have just made it an option off the menu, allowing players to implement weapon-lights or not as they saw fit. Just because id was obviously trying to implement a new type of mechanic doesn't mean that it is automatically a fun or worthwhile one, and I don't think that sidestepping a design flaw in any way invalidates the experience of the game.
I'm having a blast with it. I find it a tense and exciting shooter (although I think there are huge balance issues with the weapons, and I find the 'omg an enemy has spawned behind you' deal to be predictable and dreadfully dull), and I look forward to inching my way through every new area of the Mars base. But the idea that they didn't allow you to hold the flashlight and pistol at the same time, or even make the flashlight an 'upgrade' that you could apply to one weapon at a time (perhaps taking ten seconds or so to switch) requires far more suspension of disbelief than I'm willing to give the game.
I respectfully disagree with the idea that having a weapon and light source available at all times makes the game less fun or less challenging. Let the gamers decide, and the shooting commence. I'll be installing this mod immediately.
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