Reply With QuoteThat is sad. But then again you're talking about 500 years ago. The average on the street person in our country don't know anything about the Civil War, WWII, or Nam. Much less what happened 500 years ago
"The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the man on the street."
-Winston Churchill
And here we have supporting evidence for that... at least for Britain.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/scho...275989,00.html
Some tidbits:
Originally Posted by The Guardian
And here's my personal favorite:And 15% of 16 to 24-year-olds thought the Orangemen were actually celebrating victory at Helms Deep, the fictional battle that marked the climax of The Two Towers, the second novel in JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Of course.... everyone knows that ships are highly flammable. All Gandalf had to do was cast the third level spell Fireball, and the entire armada would have gone up in flames.When it came to identifying who helped destroy the Spanish Armada in 1588, 13% of 16 to 24-year-olds credited Horatio Hornblower, CS Forester's fictional Royal Navy hero from the Napoleonic wars.
And a fifth said it Christopher Columbus, the Genoa-born adventurer who discovered the New World in 1492, while 6% thought it was Gandalf, the wizard from Tolkien's fantasy novels.
But you would have thought that King Philip would have cast Protection From Fire to prevent that very tactic? Ah well. Just goes to show that the Spanish are really dumb.
That is sad. But then again you're talking about 500 years ago. The average on the street person in our country don't know anything about the Civil War, WWII, or Nam. Much less what happened 500 years ago
What school systems did they conduct the surveys in?
The most unbelievable thing is your unblinking assumption that all teenagers take these surveys seriously. Did you know that a measurable percentage of Americans think that Mickey Mouse is a real person and eligible to be president of the United States? OMG LOLZORS WHAT IDIOTS!!!
Plus the assumption that this is a new phenomenon. Sam Wineburg, an American education scholar, has dug up similar surveys and handwringing about the ignorance of youth from 1917. This is not to say that we should be happy that people don't know stuff, but let's keep it in perspective.
Troy
Yeah, I already thought of that. Except that I've been to Britain, and this isn't far off the mark of what most people I met knew. Plus, they polled people of several age groups... this wasn't just teenagers. But whatever... it's much more fun to imply that I swallow everything without any critical thought, isn't it?
I think it's more of an outright statement than an implication. Perhaps you need to work on your wording, I read your post and had the same immediate reaction as Rywill.Yeah, I already thought of that. Except that I've been to Britain, and this isn't far off the mark of what most people I met knew. Plus, they polled people of several age groups... this wasn't just teenagers. But whatever... it's much more fun to imply that I swallow everything without any critical thought, isn't it?
Bearing in mind as well that in a survey Americans were asked to name three Japanese people. The most popular answers were Hirohito, BRUCE LEE and GODZILLA.
I have friends that were shipwrecked on Godzilla, so I don't know what you're trying to imply.
Fair enough, but Anaxagoras isn't being naive here. I can tell you from experience that a good percentage of college freshmen couldn't tell you when the Civil War was (within 10 years). Nor would they know who Churchill was, or any other very basic historical fact.
Anax- So what's your theory that explains the Gandalf thing? People honestly believing that Gandalf the Grey defeated the Spanish Armada? People who just guessed would probably pick one of the people with a surname.
Any survey will have people who don't take it seriously, and using fictional people as the answer to a real world question is pretty clearly an example of that.
Everyone knows Godzilla was an American, created by the might of our Trinity nuclear tests. Jesus.
What I can't figure out is why everyone's upset that they can't tell you when the civil war was within 10 years. The 19th century is taught to everyone as a long featureless expanse of dreary presidents - why would they remember?
Everyone can probably tell you "1800s", though, which is about as close as anyone without a history major would ever need to get.
The Godzilla was Horatio Hornblower's first ship, which he unfortunately lost at the battle of Helm's Deep off Gibraltar in 1809. Admiral Nelson, Captain Crunch and Admiral James T. Kirk were lost in this historic action.
Duh.
Crap. I just thought this was a really funny article. If I had thought this would turn acrid, I would've posted this in P&R. Oh well.
My theory is that they had no idea who defeated the Spanish Armada, so a couple people answered "Gandalf the Grey" to be funny. And it is funny... but not for the reasons they think. I'm not sure about the "Horatio Hornblower" answer... I could imagine some people seriously answering that.
I see your point Jason, but if you stop to think about it, misplacing the Civil War by more than 10 years doesn't leave room for the other important historical events of the 1800's.... the War of 1812 & the Trail of Tears on one end, and the... umm... crap. Alright... nothing much interesting happened on the other side. I don't suppose William Jennings Byron and the gold standard makes for riveting reading.
You seem to be missing the Mexican and Spanish American wars in your understanding of the 1800's.
Eh? The Mexican-American War happened before the Civil War, which places it on the same side of the War (in terms of chronology) as the Trail of Tears and the War of 1812. As for the Spanish Americani war... it wasn't terribly important, at least not for the US. I mean, we gained the Philipines, which I suppose explains why we were down there during WW2, but it never struck me as that important in our history.
For the Spanish, on the other hand, it's really important. They lost the last of their colonial holdings, and they finally had to own up to the fact that they were a third rate world power; their empire was completely gone, and they were truly irrelevant in the balance of world power. A lot of Spanish told me that that war was a real eye opener for their country... and they didn't take it too well. (Hellooooo Franco!)
Hmmm? Dreary presidents? (I'm guessing beside Lincoln.) Isn't Andrew Jackson on one of the denominations of US bills? Why is he there if he isn't important? (I had once heard he had some sort of great influence on political campaigning...)
And didn't Edison invent the lightbulb at the end of the 19th century? Isn't he American?
-Kitsune
I'm sure it was exciting when it was all happening, but the 19th century just for some reason has zero cultural mindshare today. Theoretically the phillipines insurrection, civil war, the economic changes of the period - they should all be really interesting. But they just bore the shit out of me, and I'm a dork who likes that kind of stuff.
Actually, they do (it's what I'm reading on right now). They don't help you pick-up chicks, tho'.
That's kind of a bizarre statement. What about the Louisiana Purchase, Lewis and Clark, California gold rush, Custer's Last Stand, Geronimo, Transcontinental Railroad, Thomas Edison, etc? Practically all of American cultural mythology and archetypes are rooted in events of the 19th century.
Beats me, I'm just sayin'.
I would suggest that the 'funny' answers given were a result of multiple choice questions. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people who are guessing something to come out with a name popular in the current media. I suppose the answer of "I don't know" doesn't look as 'stupid'.
1006 over 16 year olds speak for over 55 million Brits? Far too small a number to be representative. I've no idea why the BBC should think this 'revelation' will compel more people to watch their salacious new programme.
Doing Dumb Britain threads is mine and Whitta's job.
A few weeks ago the BBC reported a survey of school kids in the US about what they thought of schools in the UK and from the responses it seemed that they believed that all British kids went to schools like Harry Potter's Hogwarts.
Of course British school kids don't get to do cool stuff that American school kids do, like slaying vampires.
The problem is that even the War of 1812 and the Trail of Tears weren't that important. The Mexican American war was more significant than the War of 1812 and the Trail of Tears just wasn't an important historical event.
The Civil War was important, and most people could tell you that it happened in the middle of the 19th century. The rest of the 19th century was us expanding westward at various speeds.
I imagine Sharp's good percentage is like 5, by the way. Not knowing who Churchill is?
You want me to test it? I'll probably teach a class this fall. I can give a quick knowledge quiz on the first day. Any question suggestions? How about: "Who was the Prime Minister of England at the start of WW2?"
My point is not that somehow the basic Civil War dates are very important everyday knowledge. I do think having historical context is important, and basics like that are part of setting up such a context.
Anyway, my point is that these are COLLEGE student, which is supposed to mean that they received at least some high school education. But I have students who can't figure out how to determine what they need on the final in order to get a certain grade that they want in the class...and they have all the percentages on the syllabus. That's sixth grade math. Are you telling me that an educated person should not know that?
I get that its very cool to think that history isn't important. Whatever. Ignorance is not something to be proud of; it isn't something to justify or dismiss.
Our vaunted modern education system is crap. And it keeps getting worse.
"Who was Winston Churchill?" is the question you believed people wouldn't know the answer to.
Anyway, bullshit. People have been whining about these kids these days for centuries. When did you take Algebra for the first time, Robert?
Have you heard of the Flynn effect?
What the hell are you talking about about it being cool to not know history? I know plenty of history. I don't think it's cool or uncool, it's entertainment.
I don't think it's very important for anyone to know what year Custer's Last Stand was. I can't imagine a situation where that information would provide a tangible benefit to anyone.
Robert, you should ask both who was the Prime Minister at the beginning of and at the end of WW2.
Ok, I'll ask that one. But wouldn't you say that anyone who didn't know the answer to the question I asked above wouldn't really know who Churchill was? What is the "correct" answer the question as I originally phrased it? A guy who led England during the war?
It's fractions, which isn't really full algebra. I'd say I learned them in 5th or 6th grade...no later. I don't know exactly. And I'm not sure what IQ has to do with anything. We are talking about education levels here, NOT ability to learn. It doesn't matter how fast you can learn things if you don't read a book.
I didn't mean to seem like I was accusing you, Ben. In fact, I am sensing hostility towards me, which I didn't intend to illicit. I'm talking about the attitude amongst much of America today. And I am not talking about the youth of today either. I am talking about everyone, including myself. And I am not talking about the general population, which is what Flynn seems to have looked at. I am talking specifically about the people we call educated. I don't think the people who graduate college today could touch the people who graduated 100 years ago for pure education (knowledge gained through education). And yes, I am including myself in that.
As for history being entertainment, that IS the tendency I am talking about. Because that implies that if you don't find it entertaining you have no reason to learn it. That's what's wrong with education in general today. People think THEY can decide what is important or not, when they don't even know anything yet.
Yes.... and using a similar line of reasoning, because people have been complaining about the venality and corruption of officials in China for millenia, there isn't venality or corruption over there. Oh, wait. There is. And always has been. It's an accurate complaint, just as the complaint about the ignorance of the masses is an accurate complaint.
That's part of the problem. Most historical knowledge (and other bits of knowledge that an "educated" person should have) don't provide any obvious benefit. My knowledge that Chamberlain was Prime Minister of Britain during the outbreak of WW2 doesn't provide any apparent tangible (read: material) benefit for me. Which is precisely why most people don't care, and why they don't bother to find out the answers.I don't think it's very important for anyone to know what year Custer's Last Stand was. I can't imagine a situation where that information would provide a tangible benefit to anyone.
edit- Robert responded right before I did, so I deleted duplicate answers
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