Stray Thoughts on SWG and City of Heroes

[Brian Rucker]

As much as I'm loving City of Heroes it's hard to let go, despite feeling a bit let down, of Star Wars Galaxies.

CoH is new and that's alot of the charm I suspect but I did go in as a cynic not as a fanboy. The combat is juicy and the proposition of being a superhero that can fly or control minds are a perfect examples of content that excites the imagination. "What would it be like to..." be a superhero, to leap over tall buildings in a single bound. Ultimately, though, one's attachment to the world is a shallow thing. The trains will always run on time. Any community seems more like a club than a center of potential political tensions. Weekend warriors rather than lifers. And that's not a bad thing, I've heard another SWG refugee say with glee, "At last a game that's not trying to be my life!"

On the other hand, on my periodic return visits to SWG to mingle with friends at the still thriving local cantina in the new town we built from the ashes of an old megapolis of Vagabond's Rest, it's hard not to really admire how much depth really is here. Consider the history of the people I'm around, good and bad, we've got stories to tell that are not like anyone elses. Merchants, craftsmen, warriors and politicians alike got involved in running a city, complained, fought and plotted. Little things, more personal things, like the pet cat that was once elected temporary mayor (outside the code) or the comfortably laid out little cottage all have memories and stories. There's a row of customized DL44s on one wall a budding weaponsmith made on commission when she was just opening up her shop. And there's the suit I was forced to wear to an ingame wedding, boring affairs if there are any in MMORPGs, but fond memories of the people there.

And when I wonder into that old cantina after a short ride there are many of the old names still somehow managing to have a good time. The old injokes and stories, not all of them happy, have forged a sense of place and belonging. I wander outside and I know these mountains, that stream, this lake. On Dantooine I rarely need to orient myself with a map if I'm near town. It's all back of my hand from the hours spend hunting or surveying. This is my neck of the woods.

Yes, I'm steamed that SWG has done such a crappy job of creating a setting that feels like Star Wars and that's the single most common complaint among my remaining friends. The Galactic Civil War is more like paintball with tots. Iconic, cannonical, themes have been glossed over or discarded in favor of tried and true MMORPG gameplay. PvP, in retrospect, seems like a stupid idea - how much better would it have been for The Empire to be a truly disciplined and frightening presence in the hands of the gamemasters of SWG rather than Bloods to the Crips of the Alliance, all acting like complete crackheads - dressing alike, acting alike and fighting with bizarre weaponry and pets that really have no place in the setting: at least as they appear in the game.

But it has done a good job with presenting an impression of reality, of place, and of the unique roles of people in a community on a smaller scale.

When I get bored, if I get bored, of CoH I don't think I'll shed a tear when I close the account. I'll be happy I got my money's worth and move on. But SWG...it's going to be hard if that day ever comes. I've a place there. My stuff's there. And so's one of the best bars on another planet that I've ever been to.

[zabuni]

And thus, the main reason why the undead corpse of Ultima Online lingers on. The game is gone, but the memories remain.

This, and several other games that have bucked the EQ trend, all have one thing in common. The stories you get from talking to people who have played them are diverse, and usually told with fond recognition. People in EQ talk about taking down x mob, or raiding x plane. We came, we saw, we kicked everything's ass.

UO was different. Never played the game, but the stories were always different. I heard stories about theatre troups, chess tournaments, archery contests, bars, political campaigns, etc., etc. Even the griefers had a flair for the dramatic, with pages upon pages of various ways to steal a house, done with all gusto of a car jacker, crowing his successes. A far cry for the guttural sounds most EQ assholes spoke.

I guess that's the good and bad about "world" style MMORPGs. You can change the world. As a result, someone can change your position in the world.

[Mark Asher]

I talked to Raph Koster at E3 and he made an interesting comment about the impact of UO on MMOs. For North America, the MMO model is EverQuest, due to the commercial success of that game.

But for Asia, UO is the model that has been adopted more than any other, according to Raph. Not sure what to make of it since I'm unfamilar with the Asian MMOs (even Lineage, which I didn't like enough to play for any length), but it makes me wonder what a lot of those are like.

And on an unrelated note, I talked to an Auran developer (Dark Reign) and found out that Auran is developing an MMO for an Asian publisher, of all things.

I also found out that Auran at one time was close to making a deal to get the rights to make Total Annihilation 2.

[mouselock]

And thus, the main reason why the undead corpse of Ultima Online lingers on. The game is gone, but the memories remain.

This, and several other games that have bucked the EQ trend, all have one thing in common. The stories you get from talking to people who have played them are diverse, and usually told with fond recognition. People in EQ talk about taking down x mob, or raiding x plane. We came, we saw, we kicked everything's ass.

UO was different. Never played the game, but the stories were always different.

UO was more different in an "A, but not B" way. EQ had "A and B", so you saw B type players too. They tend to be more vocal because of what they want out of the game.

I and many, many, many of my friends have similar type stories of EQ. "Remember when..", "This is like that time..", etc. EQ has history: Old zones that are quite literally gone or have since been revamped, institutions that no longer exist (Waiting forever on boats is a thing of the past, for example, but some of those boat rides through the sunset were very memorable from way back when the game was new.. it took an effort to relocate, you had to be sure you wanted to, and that fostered more local communities.)

I think ultimately it's a pretty thin line to walk between fostering a community and just making a game, and it's easy to fall one way or the other, but really hard to do both. CoH looks spiffy to me, but in the end it seems like it'd just be a game; and while that's not a bad thing, it's not sufficient to make me break open the bank account and set up one more stream of outgoing cash flow.

SWG itself never appealed much due to what I heard about it, but I can't deny that if it gets a chance to grow into the grand plan, it may turn out to surpass things. The space expansion looks to be something totally different. A few more expansions that are also orthogonal to all previous ones, and you'll wake up and realize you have a real virtual world there, and that you can do many things in it. That's a compelling idea, if it ever happens. (Although personally I'd much rather see it in a non-licensed property; I don't think it's really easy to build a virtual world that falls in line with the expectations people have of an established property. Something will always feel off.)

[HRose]

Ultima Online came out before the genre started.

I'll quote J. here:
The more experienced players are in existing MMOGs, the more they can't help but think about the whole genre in terms of what they already know.

This is true even for the developers. Now the genre has a shape, it will be very hard to forget that. Not only about the concrete part of the game, even the players will find hard to approach a MMOG in a non-standard way.

[Bossanova]

I talked to Raph Koster at E3 and he made an interesting comment about the impact of UO on MMOs. For North America, the MMO model is EverQuest, due to the commercial success of that game.

But for Asia, UO is the model that has been adopted more than any other, according to Raph. Not sure what to make of it since I'm unfamilar with the Asian MMOs (even Lineage, which I didn't like enough to play for any length), but it makes me wonder what a lot of those are like.

This is interesting. Akihiro Hino, the head of Level 5 that's developing True Fantasy Live Online (the MMORPG for XBox), is a fan of UO. And UO's influence is evident in True Fantasy Live Online's design.

Ultima Online: The Great Granddaddy of MMORPGs
Ultima Online (PC) is acknowledged as the game that started the modern MMORPG boom. Its gameplay is similar to text-based MUDs (multi-user dungeons), a genre popular in college computer labs since the '70s, but Ultima Online added state-of-the-art graphics and sound. More importantly, it had the Ultima name and world. When series patriarch Richard Garriott—aka Lord British—aka the man who practically invented the electronic RPG announced the franchise was going online, people listened. About 230,000 gamers still play the game, though because of its dated look and gameplay, popularity is steadily on the decline. Still, most who have moved on still remember fondly the game that started it all—including Level 5's president Akihiro Hino, who recalls endless late nights spent adventuring with Japanese players.

reference: http://www.xbnmag.com/article2/0,2053,1561941,00.asp

[synic]

who recalls endless late nights spent adventuring

.. and getting PK'd over and over by idiots with pet dragons. End story with Grandmaster GiMP laughing over your "n00b" corpse.

[Kalle]

Spare me from pointless online realities. If I want to work hard and be bored I can do that in the real world, and someone will actually pay me for it. I play games to be entertained, not to work my ass off while pretending that I'm really working my ass off in a fantasy world, which somehow is supposed to make it all worthwhile.

[Old Man Gravy]

Great post, Brian. But I'm with Kalle. It was actually my unwitting attendance of an online wedding in a MUD about 10 years ago that drove me out of MO gaming, never to return until hearing CoH's lilting call (and the spittle spraying, maniacal raving of the early Qt3 purchasers).

I thought, "WTF am I doing, I don't even go to weddings in real life, when people I KNOW are getting married. Plus, I should probably let some of these people who have been sitting in the back of the computer lab to write their semester-end term papers get some time on a machine."

[Reed]

who recalls endless late nights spent adventuring

.. and getting PK'd over and over by idiots with pet dragons. End story with Grandmaster GiMP laughing over your "n00b" corpse.

Heh, that was indeed a pain in the ass a lot of times.

But at the token it added an interesting dynamic to the game. A real danger that actually affected the way you played it. You would stay off the roads, you'd travel in groups, watch your back, always be ready to recall or ready to fight them off (god, did I love killing PKs who tried attacking me or my group). Travel light whenever possible so if you got PK'd you wouldn't lose too much.

And then there were PK/bounty hunts. That was fun and satisfying when you succeeded in running them down. Far more so than taking down some MOB.

[Mark Asher]

PvP can be the best and the worst in these games. It really is much more entertaining to fight another player, but it's also much more frustrating to get jumped and killed by another player.

[Jason Becker]

I can see the whole nostalgia and remembering the good ole days as a hook to linger on, but I don't think I've met a single person who regretted it when they finally cancelled their account. They all pretty much agree that after a couple of weeks they wondered why they didn't do it sooner and don't feel any draw at all anymore.

[Bub, Andrew]

PvP can be the best and the worst in these games. It really is much more entertaining to fight another player, but it's also much more frustrating to get jumped and killed by another player.

I suspect it would be less so, if the PvP was skill based (instead of the AI rolling dice behind a damn screen). Well for me anyway, because even though I'm not the most skilled player on Earth... I don't mind a more skilled person beating my character up. At least it's my fault when I lose.

I've got the Age of Mythology rating to prove that I'm a sucker for punishment.

[Mark Asher]

MMOs are different. You can be out killing orcs because you want to level and in the middle of a fight another player attacks you. Or maybe it's a guy you're grouped with who turns on you. Or you're selling stuff to a vendor and have your sell window open and get attacked. At times, no matter how skilled you were, you'd lose a fight because of circumstances beyond your control.

[TheWombat]

MMOs are different. You can be out killing orcs because you want to level and in the middle of a fight another player attacks you. Or maybe it's a guy you're grouped with who turns on you. Or you're selling stuff to a vendor and have your sell window open and get attacked. At times, no matter how skilled you were, you'd lose a fight because of circumstances beyond your control

Which is why I like restricted PvP systems, whether realm vs. realm, Alliance vs. Horde, Rebels vs. Empire, Heroes vs. Villains, whatever. Something that gives structure to the violence and establishes that sort of consistency and expectation that makes for a good challenge more than frustration.

Last night for instance I was in DAOC trying to get through Forest Sauvage to Pennine Mountains to kill some giant for a quest I had. Well, right outside Castle Sauvage, blocking the road, was a group of Midgard players who had managed to move in through Albion territory and set up a road block of sorts. Suddenly a rather routine "walk up the road and find Mob A, kill it, get item B, turn in to NPC C" quest became much more interesting. After a half hour of sparring back and forth we finally got enough Albs together to eliminate the Mids, grabbed a few realm points, and generally had the satisfaction of gloating over their piled up corpses :) Then we went on to finish our quest.

Because it was the frontiers, we knew PvP was a possibility. Because the PvP design eliminates most of the penalty for death in PvP, we were actually quite happy to find the Mids there, because even though we died several times each, returning to the fray took almost no time at all (being right outside the castle/bind point). It's a far cry from the early days of UO where ganking and PK'ing were the preferred forms of PvP combat, though I do agree there was a certain frisson of danger to the whole experience that is rarely equalled these days. Still, you get a good dose of that moving around some of the frontier zones in DAOC when alone or in a small group, knowing that you could run into bad guys at any time.

[Lee Johnson]

I can see the whole nostalgia and remembering the good ole days as a hook to linger on, but I don't think I've met a single person who regretted it when they finally cancelled their account. They all pretty much agree that after a couple of weeks they wondered why they didn't do it sooner and don't feel any draw at all anymore.

About six weeks ago, I cancelled my Anarchy Online account. I didn't see the point of paying to keep my subscription alive, when I spend all my free time playing FFXI. I still like AO and might go back when the next expansion is released, but right now, I don't miss the game at all. Feelings of obligation or guilt are a bad reason to keep playing a game. I play to have fun, and right now I'm having lots of fun on Vana'diel.

[Brian Rucker]

While this wasn't really a rumination about PvP in general I do have some thoughts.

PvP should fit the setting. In a fictional world that's alot easier to do as nobody's going to feel any kind of real dissonance or a disturbed suspension of disbelief if things are a bit off kilter. Things are the way they are because it's how we say they are and we'll invent some backstory to explain it.

If you are working from a licence or a historical setting it's incumbent on the designers, if they're marketing the product as evocative of the setting ("Explore the world of _______." or "Live the life of a ______." ), to create combat systems and engagements that evoke the setting. This means, to use a Koster phrase I really like, you have to set up impositional structures to shape behavior. Do your homework, understand how combat works in the real world and why it's important in the setting. Work from there to abstract it out into a fun system that sustains interest while also maintaining the immersion of setting.

If there's a real military theme then it might be a good idea to figure out how and why militaries function. Then you might want to decide how to rationalize undiciplined, freewheeling, elements like the player characters figure into it all. Can you create impositional structures so that players following their natural inclinations and the paths of least resistance generate the right kinds of behavior? Can you create a contrasting example of the right kind of behavior with NPCs while rationalizing the raggedy, at best, paramilitary player characters?

And if there is a military theme there need to be objectives, campaigns, phaselines, movement. Static doesn't cut it. Militaries are big things making big differences all the time during war, keeping cartographers engaged redrawing borders seems their historical function, and for players to be relevant they need to play some part in the decisionmaking, call it strategic, process.

If there isn't an organized military theme life becomes alot easier in many ways. A wild west game can be a good deal less structured but still incorporate strategic elements to add meaning to the gameplay.

But as it is, in SWG at least, there's no meaning to any of it. Random gankings and static missions don't encourage suspension of disbelief.

So what I would have done, given few players really have the temperment for discipline in a game, would be to build the GCW around an administrator run Empire as was originally envisioned. Set up a few planets as warzones with better and more resources than other planets. Let players be disorganized and independant minded as they like as rebels. Let them compete as rival units or cooperate against Imperial forces on the battleground planets. Use installations to hold land. Perhaps have occupation forces land on other worlds and hassle rebel and neutral cities, attacking rebel troops and scanning for sliced goods or contraband, from time to time before being driven off or leaving.

Make combat feel more like it did from the movies. Make blasters, vibroblades. and fists the main weapons but add more depth to firearms. As any gun afficianado will tell you these can be extremely varied in quality and function. Incorporate crew based heavier weapons rather than Rambo style commandos who never appeared in the films. Figure out how to create a fun 'quick draw' style for all the gunslingers out there. Have holstered, or sheathed, weaponry rendered on characters. Make pets more functional and less combat oriented. Incorporate weight and bulk to give beasts, and droids, of burden some use - not to mention making bulk transportation useful. Why else would ships like The Millenium Falcon exist? The only reason it had guns was if speed failed, and it only had speed to protect the cargo. Is there anything like cargo in SWG? Not if a Bothan can carry ore more than a lifter droid.

[TrodKnee]

The problem with real world style PvP dynamics is that there is no way of imposing real world style consequences for killing people. In real life I could pick up a kitchen knife, stand outside the front door and stab the next person who walks by to death (of course I would never do this). The things that prevent me from doing so...morality, society, justice...well there is no real way to translate them into a virtual environment.

In my opinion, a successful online PvP environment has to throw reality out the window. You need to deal with in-game obstacles and consequences, and understand the mindset of the powergamer PvPer. Raph, Garriot, McQuaid and their ilk have proven time and again that they simply don't understand (or don't care) what makes a MMORPG PKer tick. That's why when they try to plug PvP into their grand design they end up with Lord of the Flies every time...

[Mark Asher]

The problem with real world style PvP dynamics is that there is no way of imposing real world style consequences for killing people. In real life I could pick up a kitchen knife, stand outside the front door and stab the next person who walks by to death (of course I would never do this). The things that prevent me from doing so...morality, society, justice...well there is no real way to translate them into a virtual environment.

So what kind of punishment should an MMO PKer receive, considering that that PKer's victim isn't really harmed?

It's not that dying in these games is irritating -- players die to mobs all the time and you don't hear them complaining about it, really, even though the consequences for dying to mobs are usually more severe than getting PK'd.

It's really just the psychology behind it that gets to some players. A PKer is really only doing what most players ask for from mobs -- having better, more challenging "AI". It's just that becoming another player's victim, being made his bitch so to speak, makes players angry.

It's really takes an attitude adjustment to enjoy PvP. Once you get over the frustration of being ganked and realize it's going to happen no matter what you do, it's not really all that frustrating. Ok, he got me. Good for him. If I can get him back in the future, that will be a sweet moment in the game for me.

What is most frustrating in a PvP environment is when players figure out the exploits, loopholes, and better character builds and the developers don't address these problems. The enchanter character class in DAoC was able to exploit LOS issues on the PvP servers and it was extremely frustrating to other players because Mythic dragged their heels about addressing the problem. I'm not sure they ever did. The problem sort of fixed itself at the higher levels as the enchanter was easier to kill, but at the lower levels they were death machines in the right situation. Stuff like that makes players crazy, especially because they understand the game mechanics better than the developers most of the time.

[Bub, Andrew]

MMOs are different. You can be out killing orcs because you want to level and in the middle of a fight another player attacks you. Or maybe it's a guy you're grouped with who turns on you. Or you're selling stuff to a vendor and have your sell window open and get attacked. At times, no matter how skilled you were, you'd lose a fight because of circumstances beyond your control.

Sure, I see that, but I still wouldn't mind that as much as I get bored with approaching mobs and watching probabilities unfold. Maybe make a rule that you can't attack someone already engaged in a fight? This would work better in a high fantasy or superhero MMO, a place where a character can take a lot of damage before falling.

I'd really like to see a Comic Book MMO Shooter. Something where we can have Freedom Force style battles using twitch skill. You know: the Punishator punches the Bulk through a building, RasterBlaster bathes Punishator in flame, and the Bulk cames back in a single bound carrying a light pole he uses as a baseball bat.

CoH is cool and all, but the battles are pretty generic once you get used to the special effects. City of Villains sounds good, but even if it does add PvP (does it? I've read nothing) hitting the 3 and 4 key and watching recharge rates... doesn't sound like an exciting Superhero fight.

Heh, the Danny Elfman cartoon X-Men cartoon theme launched on my MP3 player right when I wrote that. I forgot I even had that on my hard drive.

[TrodKnee]

So what kind of punishment should an MMO PKer receive, considering that that PKer's victim isn't really harmed?

The victim is almost always harmed. If nothing else, there is a game time loss while the player recovers from dying and travel time. In DaoC, you lose gold when you have to buy back your Constitution. If you are killed while fighting monsters you may lose experience points too. In old school UO PvP you lost all you carried, which made it a griefer's paradise.

Ok, he got me. Good for him. If I can get him back in the future, that will be a sweet moment in the game for me.

Except that you probably never will, because you have a job and a life.

What is most frustrating in a PvP environment is when players figure out the exploits, loopholes, and better character builds and the developers don't address these problems. The enchanter character class in DAoC was able to exploit LOS issues on the PvP servers and it was extremely frustrating to other players because Mythic dragged their heels about addressing the problem. I'm not sure they ever did. The problem sort of fixed itself at the higher levels as the enchanter was easier to kill, but at the lower levels they were death machines in the right situation. Stuff like that makes players crazy, especially because they understand the game mechanics better than the developers most of the time.

People who play games are competitive. They play to win. There will always be exploits, loopholes, and better character builds. Powergamers will always understand game mechanics better than the developers, because the developers spend their time developing and not playing the game. If the developers fix one exploit the powergamers will find another. If they can snipe you from a mile way invisibly from inside an iron bunker they will do so. There must be a system of protection that prevents casual players from becoming cattle fodder, and allows them to compete on somewhat even footing with the powergamers. There should also be a good reason (preferably within the game storyline) that someone killed you...not just because you were there and they could.

[Jon R.]

People who play games are competitive. They play to win. There will always be exploits, loopholes, and better character builds. Powergamers will always understand game mechanics better than the developers, because the developers spend their time developing and not playing the game. If the developers fix one exploit the powergamers will find another. If they can snipe you from a mile way invisibly from inside an iron bunker they will do so. There must be a system of protection that prevents casual players from becoming cattle fodder, and allows them to compete on somewhat even footing with the powergamers. There should also be a good reason (preferably within the game storyline) that someone killed you...not just because you were there and they could.

Exactly, if for no other reason than because it screws up everyone else's risk/reward ratios. The IPY UO server that was mentioned here a while ago is a fine example of this; everything on the whole was cheapened because no matter what you did or where you went, the risk was that you would get ganked by the throng of nobodies enticed by being the height of fuckstickery they could never achieve in real life. Dungeon? Ganked. Collecting resources? Ganked. Walking aroGANKED. GoiGANKED. Town? Yeah, that's ok. Maybe i'll stay there and play backgammon with someone in tow*Someone has stolen your backgammon board!* FUCK!

[Xaroc]

MMOs are different. You can be out killing orcs because you want to level and in the middle of a fight another player attacks you. Or maybe it's a guy you're grouped with who turns on you. Or you're selling stuff to a vendor and have your sell window open and get attacked. At times, no matter how skilled you were, you'd lose a fight because of circumstances beyond your control

Which is why I like restricted PvP systems, whether realm vs. realm, Alliance vs. Horde, Rebels vs. Empire, Heroes vs. Villains, whatever. Something that gives structure to the violence and establishes that sort of consistency and expectation that makes for a good challenge more than frustration.

I tend to agree with Wombat, the structured methods are the best. Random ganking is boring and pointless.

I would also add that I hope when they add PvP to CoH they balance powers effects on players differently than they balance them on NPCs. In DAoC several of the nerfs to archers for PvP killed their ability to solo effectively in PvE which they needed to do because they were not desireable in groups.

In CoH there are so many, what I would consider, instant win powers for PvP I can't see how they are going to balance it and make it fun. There are too many ways to be held in place without being able to do anything while people beat on you. Melee types have a couple of defenses against it in a few lines but in the invulnerability line you have to root yourself to stop from being held which in PvE isn't an issue because you can still taunt to get things near you but in PvP obviously wouldn't work. Then there is flying vs. non-flying characters, superspeed, etc. It sounds like it would be a nightmare to balance.

CoH is cool and all, but the battles are pretty generic once you get used to the special effects. City of Villains sounds good, but even if it does add PvP (does it? I've read nothing) hitting the 3 and 4 key and watching recharge rates... doesn't sound like an exciting Superhero fight.

I find the combat to be more dynamic in CoH because I find myself moving around a lot more like in an action game to get powers lined up, move up for a close in attack, knock bad guys off a roof to the ground below then leap off to finish them, etc. The movement keeps things from becoming as stale as some MMORPG combat. Also, I don't know what character you are running by my energy blaster is level 8 and has 6 attacks. I hardly ever wait to attack and they are a variety of kinds of attacks so it rarely gets boring.

-- Xaroc

[Brian Rucker]

As much as I'm skeptical of PvP combat in general I think my character, a martial artist/regen/leadership/flight, will really come into his own. Just banging on static baddies Blasters and more dedicated Scrappers will do better but having a guy around who a) flies, b) has permanent buffs radiating (leadership+integration: hold, disorient, sleep, etc, resistance) and is hard to hit or kill (fast healing, reconstruction, stealth, maneuvers) will be just fine out there. Air Superiority the hovering blasters, controllers and defenders into the dirt while chuckling at their powers. What he won't be doing is massive damage or mini-tanking but he'll be the king of hit and fade and dramatic rescues.

[Mark Asher]

The crowd control stuff in CoH will be a major issue in designing PvP. That, and flying vs. grounded players.

I can already predict some problem builds. Take four blasters, give them that sniper attack and super speed, and let them hit other players with coordinated sniper blasts from far away and then run away with super speed. How do you deal with that? They'll hit and one-shot the non-tanks and flee before the rest of the group can react.

They only thing Cryptic can do is nerf powers, either through actual nerfs or through building in resists for other players, which in effect nerf the power anyway.

[Brian Rucker]

Could be. Or it really could be The Day of The Scrapper. Scrappers are the ones who get the biggest boost from fighting Pool Powers like Air Superiority and Regenerating Scrappers get all kinds of resistance powers. They could be the ones out there messing up the best laid plans of the other side. Right now they're really overshadowed by Blasters and Tanks. Blasters do more damage and at range. Tanks are the only survivable front line fighters in teams. Only Scrappers combine damage, defense and special resistances without the need of supporting guys. So if someone needs to 'go deep' and harass the other side's crowd control and buff/debuff team it'll be the Scrapper. Most of them have stunning or other disabling attacks they can use to pin down targets as well.

The defense would be having scrappers with superspeed or teleportation themselves. Once the snipers start shooting, scrappers go after them and pin them down. Also having defense buffs will help. Defenders and Leadership characters can hit attackers with serious penalties. Even if a tank doesn't have native defense/damage avoidance abilities all they have to do is pop a defense inspiration or have a teammate stealth them for a base ability.

All this is theoretical of course.

[Wheelkick]

Structured PvP (or RvR, AvH, RvE, HvE...) is surely the way to go (except in Korea, I've heard), but the problem is when some players play to fuck up for others.

And that is hard to control.

[Nathan Phoenix]

The crowd control stuff in CoH will be a major issue in designing PvP. That, and flying vs. grounded players.

I can already predict some problem builds. Take four blasters, give them that sniper attack and super speed, and let them hit other players with coordinated sniper blasts from far away and then run away with super speed. How do you deal with that? They'll hit and one-shot the non-tanks and flee before the rest of the group can react.

They only thing Cryptic can do is nerf powers, either through actual nerfs or through building in resists for other players, which in effect nerf the power anyway.

Well, I tend to think of fights between superheroes and supervillains as taking a LONG time to resolve themselves. They could go the AO route and lower the damage players do to one another. In AO, players do half the damage to other players that they would do to mobs. This would partially address the hit and run ganking, because people would HAVE to stand and duke it out to kill someone, but it has the side effect of making healer archetypes far more powerful, because their healing/regeneration abilities are not similarly reduced.

Ok, he got me. Good for him. If I can get him back in the future, that will be a sweet moment in the game for me.

Except that you probably never will, because you have a job and a life

Best reply EVAR!

[Andrew Mayer]

I think that Cryptic will take a different tack. One of the strong points of COH is that the world is fairly structured and thought out.

There's very controlled avenues of "Freedom" and "Customability" in all areas of the game. I have to believe that PVP will be the same.

There will be a set of rules that will shape the context and the outcome of each fight, and will help to bring all the powers and/or classes into their own.

[quatoria]

I think melee types are going to get utterly demolished when PVP comes around. Characters who can fly and blast, like, say, Voltaic Storm, have the capability of ascending out of reach of anything but sniper attacks - including things like web grenades or holds - making them invulnerable to the attacks of anything but other blasters or defenders (or some flying controllers), while still abling them to unleash brutal ranged attacks. A flying melee type would have a shot of counteracting this, unless, of course, the blaster had holds, but how many melee types have you met who fly, instead of jumping?