"City of Heroes" MMO: Beta Tester Commentary

[jeep]

"Friend of a Friend" stuff, fwd to me via email, but no identifying statements so probably safe for public consumption. Apparently the beta goes public today or tomorrow. I try every MMO as it comes out (They've got a pretty good track record of being worth the $50 for that first month IMHO, but I've only paid for extra time on two: DAOC and FFXI) Since this game was being compared to Freedom Force, which was pretty fun, I thought I'd look into it, and thus discovered the 'friend of a friend' was a beta tester. So, just like when I beta tested Earth and Beyond, here's the guy's impressions.

The only thing I've heard that isn't in this quoted text below is that you should take as much traveling ability as you can because getting to the scene of crimes is as important as being able to stop them.

/jeep/



Sure! I'll give my impressions of it, well, of at least the lower level content and what I've heard on the beta boards.

First off, I really love how complex the avatar creation is. It really is very well done and I haven't seen many duplicates running around, which is refreshing. Lots of different symbols, colors, hair styles, masks, cloths/patterns (from armor to classic tights), eyeware, ect. As of right now however, you had better be happy with how you make your character look cause there isn't a tailor or 'image designer' in game after creation. But I believe Cryptic is planning on adding one in the first big patch.

The PvE is fairly fun. Mobs spawn in out-of-the-way places (which is a
realistic touch), and certain mobs spawn in different areas (Circle of Thorns perform their rituals on rooftops and such). Mob AI is a bit buggy right now, like when a mob starts to melee you and you kite, they will continue to try and melee you while you just destroy them. Also, mobs will often run away from you if you're destroying them or their friends, it's annoying at first, but is another nice realistic touch. Oh yeah, the mobs say funny things when they mug citizens and when you engage them (my favorite is, 'We have tights incoming!'). Oh yeah, fights can get BIG. Like Avalon City courtyard big, but at level 8 and with one solid group. However, a friend of mine told me that huge fights tend to tone down a bit later on since mob hps and powers scale up faster than PCs do. Also, there are contacts that give you missions, team missions, and even guild (supergroup) missions. No PvP combat yet, but an arena is schedualed for the first patch.

Classes (archetypes) seem to be a bit unbalanced so far though. I think the Tankers and Controllers should do a bit more damage. However, the powers within an archetype are fairly balanced if you look closely enough. Take blasters for instance. Ice blasters do tons of damage, but all in one hit; they can also slow mobs. Fire blasters do less damage up front, and a bit more over time, they also have faster recycle times. Lightning blasters do damage between fire and ice, but sap mob's endurance. Most of the other archetypes are the same way. Dark/Dark defenders for instance (my fave combo), do less damage, but can debuff mob's accuracy with its attacks in one line, and area rez/debuff/cc in the other.

Something that is nice, but confused me at first, is that all the zones are instanced. So basically, if one fills up, another zone is created to put more people into. Got hard to coordinate at first when we'd all go to Atlas city, then we'd realize that we were all in DIFFERENT Atlas cities . You can travel to other copies of zones by using the train or traveling to zone gateways on foot, so it isn't that hard to navigate.

My first problem is that travel powers are all too important, and group travel powers, altough nice, are a bit excessive. This means that there is a bit less variety in characters since most people will pick either teleport, super speed, flight or leaping instead of leadership, stealth, fighting and the other non-travel power-pool powers. I'd like to see Cryptic allowing players to get 2 power pools instead of just 1. The limited amount of power slots a character can have would balance this already.

Another problem I have isn't with the game really, but that the game seems to attract some pretty immature people. There are no Kill Stealing checks, and name filters seem to be non-existant (also doesn't help that the scrapper claws line looks exactly like wolverine's claws . I've seen about 20 weapon-x's in various spellings).

Well, getting a bit tired now, so I'll just list off some other random things instead of rambling away:

Experience, while decently fast at first, starts to slow down around level 10.

No 'equipable' items like we're used to from DAOC and other games. Instead you get 'inspirations' and 'enhancements.' Inspirations are like potions. Some give short-term damage, defense, effect resistance buffs, others return some health or endurance. Enhancements are used to upgrade your powers. You really want to upgrade your powers when you can, they're really weak without enhancements. Enhancements come in generic, dual origin and single origin. This is the ONLY thing that origins affect. Which kinda annoys me. I just wish origins would affect costumes as well. But then I guess you couldn't have a mutant with a robotic arm.

Well, that's all I can think of right now. I really enjoy this game though, and I believe the open beta begins tomorrow, so sign up and check it out .

edit: Just wanted to say that I paint a nearly flawless picture of the game here, and although the game is very good for beta, it isn't flawless. There are some bugs (sometimes when you zone all you see is a black screen, you can type and hear things, but the best thing to type then is /quit and restart the game), and things that were supposed to be in at launch, but will not be. Supergroup bases is one example, but they're schedualed to be in game at the first big patch (which is supposed to be a month after release). Also, the supergroup vault, which is supposed to replace the base for now, doesn't work last I heard.

[scharmers]

I dunno. I hear those terms "zoning" and "kiting" and "mobs", and I just can't get excited about this. EQ in Tights. Sigh.

--scharmers

[Xaroc]

I dunno. I hear those terms "zoning" and "kiting" and "mobs", and I just can't get excited about this. EQ in Tights. Sigh.

--scharmers

Basically then you will never play an MMORPG. This is jargon used in every MMORPG. Mobs has been around since the MUD days. If you don't like MMORPGs that is great but please come up with a better reason than you don't like the jargon. It is like not playing a flight sim because people say padlock or bogey or whatever other jargon flight sim people say.

-- Xaroc

[Anaxagoras]

I dunno. I hear those terms "zoning" and "kiting" and "mobs", and I just can't get excited about this. EQ in Tights. Sigh.

--scharmers

Basically then you will never play an MMORPG. This is jargon used in every MMORPG. Mobs has been around since the MUD days. If you don't like MMORPGs that is great but please come up with a better reason than you don't like the jargon. It is like not playing a flight sim because people say padlock or bogey or whatever other jargon flight sim people say.

-- Xaroc

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG. I didn't get the impression he was bitching about the jargon; he was just using the jargon as a platform for talking about how he doesn't like MMORPG's in general.

[Supertanker]

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG.

I'm very disappointed to learn this. I was hoping CoH would be solo friendly most of the time with groups forming spontaneously to take on powerful enemies (think Spiderman, with the occasional Marvel Team-Up issue). But since there are classes and the EQ jargon applies immediately, it really sounds like it was constructed to attract current EQ players by being EQ in tights. Bummer.

[mouselock]

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG.

I'm very disappointed to learn this. I was hoping CoH would be solo friendly most of the time with groups forming spontaneously to take on powerful enemies (think Spiderman, with the occasional Marvel Team-Up issue). But since there are classes and the EQ jargon applies immediately, it really sounds like it was constructed to attract current EQ players by being EQ in tights. Bummer.

Ummm, zoning, kiting, and mobs are:

a) Applied by the reviewer and put into a context that they're familiar with.

b) Not indicative really of a type of gameplay.

If you're not into sitting there and hitting buttons to power up your character, more power to you. However, getting down on gameplay because the game has:

a) distinct levels ("zoning")

b) the ability to do damage from a distance while a mob futilely chases you ("kiting")

c) enemy NPCs that you fight ("mobs")

rather limits you from playing any game. I could accurately use those type of terms to describe UT2k4, but it'd be folly to proclaim the game worthless on the face of it because I did so.

What's with all the knee-jerk reaction to MMO type games just because they're MMO type games? Publicity burn-out or something? Are they like RTS were at one point right now?

[Xaroc]

I dunno. I hear those terms "zoning" and "kiting" and "mobs", and I just can't get excited about this. EQ in Tights. Sigh.

--scharmers

Basically then you will never play an MMORPG. This is jargon used in every MMORPG. Mobs has been around since the MUD days. If you don't like MMORPGs that is great but please come up with a better reason than you don't like the jargon. It is like not playing a flight sim because people say padlock or bogey or whatever other jargon flight sim people say.

-- Xaroc

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG. I didn't get the impression he was bitching about the jargon; he was just using the jargon as a platform for talking about how he doesn't like MMORPG's in general.

I think that is a pretty big stretch. Other than the kiting reference those terms don't really describe gameplay so he is reacting negatively to the jargon and nothing else about the game.

-- Xaroc

[Xaroc]

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG.

I'm very disappointed to learn this. I was hoping CoH would be solo friendly most of the time with groups forming spontaneously to take on powerful enemies (think Spiderman, with the occasional Marvel Team-Up issue). But since there are classes and the EQ jargon applies immediately, it really sounds like it was constructed to attract current EQ players by being EQ in tights. Bummer.

You can use those words for any MMORPG that exists! Those are not EQ specific terms.

-- Xaroc

[Aleck]

You can use those words for any MMORPG that exists! Those are not EQ specific terms.

-- Xaroc

Wait... You mean there are MMORPGs other than Everquest?

Oh, yeah, I forgot the Sims Online... <duck>

[Jobe]

I guess this'll be where I timidly admit that I've began playing EQ again. Is anyone else?

[Sunny the Unemployed]

Could we for once judge an MMO based on its merits rather than the simple use of common terminology?

I guess this'll be where I timidly admit that I've began playing EQ again. Is anyone else?

When I quit EQ two years ago, I quit for good. I uninstalled it and broke the CD in half. :wink:

[Sharpe]

I think his point *was* that this is yet another MMORPG.

I'm very disappointed to learn this. I was hoping CoH would be solo friendly most of the time with groups forming spontaneously to take on powerful enemies (think Spiderman, with the occasional Marvel Team-Up issue). But since there are classes and the EQ jargon applies immediately, it really sounds like it was constructed to attract current EQ players by being EQ in tights. Bummer.

I'm in the beta and have played a moderate amount (highest char is 10). Its not really EQ in tights although it is still basically an MMORPG. It *does* allow for that "mostly solo but occasional teamup" gameplay. I would characterize it as inbetween EQ and Diablo in terms of combat mechanics and gameplay. So Overall I suspect you might enjoy it in a light weight Supertanker.

However, I *do* think you'll find it has the same flaw you found in KOTOR: at some point you'll get frustrated with the toggled and button-based combat controls, and will wish you could move and aim. Its an interesting contrast playing a lot of Planetside now while also playing CoH Beta: I definitely miss the skill factor when playing CoH, but then again the superhero funk is good :0.

I plan to play CoH at least for a while, YMMV.

Dan

[Supertanker]

I'm mad about CoH because they modeled typical MMO combat instead of superhero comic combat. It's not just this report, it is every one that I've read leads me to believe that they have missed the "comic book hero combat" target. Since it is superheroes, I was expecting something more like a thousand player, real-time game of Freedom Force than the "EQ in tights" that's being reported.

For example, the fact that they split "tanks" from "scrappers" (http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=897&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0) shows me how they stray from comic archetypes over to EQ archetypes. Ben Grimm, the Hulk, Superman, Captain America - comic melee archetypes combine hitting power and invulnerability. Splitting the two makes no sense from a comic game perspective, but does follow the EQ combat archetypes. If you aren't invulnerable but have a great melee attack, how are you supposed to take a super-punch and still respond with a double-handed, overhead hammer blow? If you can take a super-punch, you're not much of a comic hero if your return blow gets you named "The Kitten."

Buffing and healing? WTF is that in comics? I can remember a couple of times that Sue Richards shielded people in a pinch, but comic heroes are supposed to leap into the fray and start pummeling bad guys themselves. Even in a lame confrontation like the Superfriends and the Legion of Doom, nobody was in the back buffing and healing the combatants. The fists flew heavy as the heroes and villains paired off - Superman vs. Bizzaro, Flash vs. Grodd, Wonder Woman vs. Cheeta. Even the Wonder Twins were a bear with an ice club or something - nobody needed buffing.

UT2004 probably is a better example of superhero combat than CoH. Every player and every weapon is potentially deadly, and teamwork is produced from the gameplay and weapon choice instead of being forced on players through class limitations. I played a lot of Villains & Vigilantes and Champions in the old days, and we had many unique heroes without class rules restricting what powers or defenses they could have. If you wanted an invulnerable flame blaster, you could spend your character points to make one. No such luck in CoH. Freedom Force got this right, too. My reaction isn't a knee-jerk response to an MMO game, it is a considered response to an unheroic, stilted model for a superhero game.

[Brian Rucker]

Can you imagine an unmoderated game of Champions, Supertanker? Everyone breaking out calculators (and you know those guys even if you couldn't stand playing with them) to figure out the most effective min-max design equation to win battles? Now imagine these guys with websites sharing all this information behind the, non-existant, GM's back. Pretty soon everyone's got the mindcontrolling, etherial, invulnerable whatchamacallit with the contrived list of minimal bad side effects.

I really would like to see a game like you describe work but I suspect, to an extent, they have to model with balance and teamwork in mind to make it work in an unmoderated MMO format. The best bet would be to see something like Neverwinter Nights meets Freedom Force if we want a good 'classic' superhero RPG experience. Small groups of friends with a living, breathing, storyteller overseeing stats and ensuring balanced play - maybe confiscating calculators as well.

[mtkafka]

Supertanker, I thought the same thing before playing the beta... lemme just say CoH captures superhero combat pretty well for an eq 'clone'... and I use that term very loosely. The thing that sets CoH apart from combat in other mmrpg's is the speed and movement (and the pretty colorful look of powers). No other mmrpg has combat as fun as CoH. The game still has content and pacing issues, but overall I'd say the games fun for at least a one or two month diversion. Anything after that depends on post launch additioins.

etc

[Lake]

I am going to wait the necessary six months to see if any new content is added. I would rather play a villian.

[scharmers]

To the deliberately (or congentially) obtuse Xaroc:

I, scharmers, am disappointed that there is Yet Another MMORPG with Yet The Same Concepts So Popularized by EQ; to wit, Tanking, Buffing, Kiting, Zoning, And The Like. To me, comic book heroes are not all about Min/Maxing your Skills and Training Mobs To Get Phat Loot, but what the fuck do I know, right? Unless I could build a Marshall Law character and relentlessly hunt down other super heroes.

In fact, one might say that good old Mr. Law had it down about EQ-Champions, er, COH already:

"I'm a hero hunter. I hunt heroes. I haven't found any yet."

--scharmers
--still waiting for the next MMORPG paradigm

[Sharpe]

One more comment here: the original posts use of all the standard terms IMO is a linguistic shorthand: it was written from one veteran MMORPG player to another and they used the terms familiar to them from prior games. That doesn't mean that CoH is exactly like EQ, just that it has some game functions that are somewhat similiar. It *plays* differently IMO. The best comparision is probably the combat in KOTOR: faster than EQ, based on selecting a range of attacks and abilities with varying effects. There is no "autoattack" and most of the abilities are quite "superheroic" in execution.

Also the distinction between Scrapper and Tanker is not as steep as you might think: both are pretty good melee tough guys. Tankers are not "kitten punchers" although they don't hand out the pure damage of Scrappers. They can definitely pummel guys though. Scrappers are also not wimps: they have the 2nd best defense in the game and are noticeably tougher than all non-melee characters. There's no reason you couldn't make a "classic brick" as a Scrapper rather than a tanker: hes not as good as a damage sponge but can still do it, and he'd hand out a lot of damage. For example, one of the power sets available to the Scrapper is good old Invulnerability. Likewise for the Tanker, there are a number of hefty melee powers, from Super Strength (think Sunday Punch) to Stone or Ice melee, and also a couple of melee weapons (Battle Axe and Mace). The weapon based powers are not like equipping a weapon: you use the power and your char automatically whips out whatever the weapon is - the weapon powers are not like an FPS but are instead somewhat cheesy and super-heroic in a Diablo kind of way.

Not a perfect game but not worthy of being dismissed as EQ in tights IMO.

Dan

[Xaroc]

I, scharmers, am disappointed that there is Yet Another MMORPG with Yet The Same Concepts So Popularized by EQ; to wit, Tanking, Buffing, Kiting, Zoning, And The Like. To me, comic book heroes are not all about Min/Maxing your Skills and Training Mobs To Get Phat Loot, but what the fuck do I know, right?


This is a game. Where there is a game there are min/maxers. No one is forcing you to play any game this way. That is your hang up.

Also, there is basically no loot in this game aside from things called inspirations and enhancements that either give your powers a boost permenantly or give them a temporary boost. But of course since you already know about all MMORPGs and everything about them you knew that already right?


Unless I could build a Marshall Law character and relentlessly hunt down other super heroes.

In fact, one might say that good old Mr. Law had it down about EQ-Champions, er, COH already:

"I'm a hero hunter. I hunt heroes. I haven't found any yet."

--scharmers
--still waiting for the next MMORPG paradigm


I am not saying CoH is the next paradigm in MMORPGs but when it does show up people are still going to be saying mobs, kiting, etc. and you are going to miss it.

-- Xaroc

[Backov]

I predict that any MMORPG sans phat loot is doomed to failure.

Hell, that's 75% of the reason people still play Diablo 2 and EQ.

[Rob O'Boston]

I've been watching some of the CoH gameplay movies and I am absolutely smitten with the colors in the game. It looks pretty damn cool.

[Brian Rucker]

Five minutes left as I watch the beta download. Preorder is in. I don't predict CoH will rock my world but it could be fun for a while. Besides, all the kids are doing it and where goeth my buds go I.

[Slothrop]

For example, the fact that they split "tanks" from "scrappers" (http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=897&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0) shows me how they stray from comic archetypes over to EQ archetypes. Ben Grimm, the Hulk, Superman, Captain America - comic melee archetypes combine hitting power and invulnerability.
Hello, when did Captain America become invulnerable? He's got an indestructable shield and he wears a suit of chain mail, but he's only human. And he has nowhere near the strength of any of those other guys. Cap's greatest strength is his tactical skill, which allows him to synthesize and execute complex battle strategies in response to rapidly changing situations. Duh! :wink:

[Alan Dunkin]

Yeah except that Cap America's "super soldier" formula just didn't enlarge his sphincter, probably gave him some other muscles too ya know.

--- Alan

[GuildBoss]

I predict that any MMORPG sans phat loot is doomed to failure.

Hell, that's 75% of the reason people still play Diablo 2 and EQ.

Hundreds of 1000's of rabid comic book fans say you're wrong.

[Derek Meister]

As has been said before, the hordes of comic book fanatics can barely keep the comic book industry itself afloat.

I think I grew up with the wrong pencil and paper RPGs because while my friends and I might have discussions about gameplay involving terms like Monty Hall, Tanks or minmaxing, we never used such terms while actually playing.

I fully admit to never having played a MMORPG myself, outside of MUDs in the early 90s, but the RPG drama whore in me finds absolutely no interest in a game where a good number of other players treat it simply as another role-less game in which in-game conversation uses those meta-game terms all the time, along with bits of AOL IMing shortcut speech. "R u tank?" just doesn't do it for me.

[Brian Rucker]

I hear you Derek. Problem isn't only that online gamers have been socialized and taught to deal with their environment using certain terms of reference and packaged expectations - it's that designers and publishers are too. And because the MMORPG is such a huge investment of effort I'm skeptical we're going to see many real risks taken in for profit settings. Even SWG, a game which is revolutionary in some respects really boils down to much the same old formula as every other MMORPG. How much different will CoH be? Eh. I get to fly and that's cool.

However, I will say there are roleplayers out there who aren't all that bad. Maybe not MUSH or tabletop good, all the time, but good enough to riff with you in banter or add that extra aura of immersion to an adventure. Folks who try to avoid mixing up out of game terms and knowledge with the in-game experience. Those are the guys I'm trailing over to CoH. Many of them are still in SWG with serious characters making the best of the mediocre situation there. Most all I've talked to heading to CoH are angling in with a lighter attitude. Just going to blow off steam but, hey, we're roleplayers so roleplaying will be in effect even if it's just for our little slice of life.

[Mark Asher]

CoH is a solid game, but I suspect a lot of players will be tired of it after a month or two. There isn't much variety and the level curve is a real bitch.

[Rob O'Boston]

CoH is a solid game, but I suspect a lot of players will be tired of it after a month or two. There isn't much variety and the level curve is a real bitch.

Do you think the live team has any chance of gradually adding enough content to keep the game interesting? I'd play a "solid game" over a boring game with phat lewt any day. Planetside is one of my all time favorite games but it is incredibly shallow when it comes to content (even the PvP is just PvP forever), so perhaps CoH can find a way to keep people playing.

[Rob O'Boston]

SWEET JESUS! I just got into the beta. I only signed up for it yesterday, and today was the last day they were sending out invites. Better pick up a lottery ticket tonight too.

[Don Quixote]

I got my beta invite this morning, too. Set it to download when I left for work, and came home to an installed game. Runs really smooth, too- I've got an Athlon 2100+, but only a GF2 and 384mb RAM. Looks good, and the only slowdown is when there's a couple of dozen other heroes around. From my 30 mins of play before the server was taken down for patching, it seemed fun, but I do want more interesting powers, not just new ways to punch people. What's the best class to take for that sort of thing?

[Rob O'Boston]

I got my beta invite this morning, too. Set it to download when I left for work, and came home to an installed game. Runs really smooth, too- I've got an Athlon 2100+, but only a GF2 and 384mb RAM. Looks good, and the only slowdown is when there's a couple of dozen other heroes around. From my 30 mins of play before the server was taken down for patching, it seemed fun, but I do want more interesting powers, not just new ways to punch people. What's the best class to take for that sort of thing?

I'm sprinting to a 3 hour and 39 minute download. Dammit. It ends Thursday! Every moment is precious!!!

[Don Quixote]

Thursday? You're kidding. The page said nine days 'til launch. Are they cutting it off a week before? :(

[Brian Rucker]

Finally got some playing in tonight. Just the tutorial and into the city some. I dunno. Seems like alot of folks standing around and camping for gang members. Nobody's talking much at all. Then again, this is probably how SWG would have seemed to me if I hadn't a good crew before I went in.

Things I like. Modern city setting is nice, cool seeing pedestrians and traffic as well. Things I don't like. No free emotes (at least that I could tell). And I can't figure out how to get a flying character! Don't tell me I have to level grind before I can fly! Oh well. :) Last, some of the power combinations don't make much sense. I kinda get the feeling they really didn't think things through terribly well. But, hey, it can only get better once I hook up with folks.

One thing - man, I do appreciate the interface and emote options and animations and art in SWG that much more now!

[LionelThompson]

One thing - man, I do appreciate the interface and emote options and animations and art in SWG that much more now!

There are still many emotes to discover I'd hope, but I like the ones I've seen so far in CoH:
/em dice
"" rock
paper
scissors
coin
newspaper
bow
salute

I'm still not crazy about movement in this game, but the interface works just fine here as well, using the keyboard for power options is convenient enough. What did you not like?

[Mark Asher]

They need to add more instanced mission tilesets. They have about 5-6 that are reused over and over. Not sure how long it takes to make those.

There's just not a lot of variety in the game. Not sure how they can fix that easily, though adding PvP would help.

The city's in zones and each zone is dotted with semi-random spawns. You run around and kill those and you also get the instanced missions. That's about it, really.

[Brian Rucker]

The overall layout, options, and customizability. I really get the feeling the SWG team spent serious time thinking about this but they also had deeper pockets and a perhaps more experienced team.

CoH opened up a bit for me once I got a little better at combat. That's really the fun, isn't it? Using powers to blast through gangs of thugs and send them flying. How long the flavor stays in the bubblegum is another question but right now it's pretty juicy. I also like the idea of 'inspirations' you can acquire and deploy but only 4 at a time. Adds a little more drama to combat and adventure because you can't just stock up with the A list junk and go to town. It's a matter of deciding what you need and what you feel you'd best toss or use up to make room for something better. It's similar to a card based system in tabletop RPGs where different hands were dealt to players before a game and could allow for unusual, outside the rules, moments or advantages. Perhaps not quite as detailed but pretty cool nonetheless.

Oh, and there is free emoting the semi-colon toggles it. That post was actually an accident. I thought I was posting to my SWG forums where we're kind of buzzing right now. I endeavor not to use smilies here because I cultivate my street cred on Quarter to Three. :) Damn.

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, the combat is really good in CoH. It's definitely one of the highlights.

[Rob O'Boston]

Yeah, the combat is really good in CoH. It's definitely one of the highlights.

That's a pretty HUGE highlight. If you've got that as a strength for your MMORPG, I think you've got a big leg up on the competition. Now they just have to flesh it out.

[Aszurom]

My summary...

COH removes most of the pointless bullshit that most MMORPG games consider "content". No camping spawns - they won't spawn if you're in visual range of the area. No 2-hour hikes across multiple zones - take the train, teleport, or friggin FLY. No phat lewt to camp for.

What's left when you've pulled all that crap out is a 3rd person massive multiplayer "Diablo in tights". Run around with your group, beat up monsters, slot runes... er... enhancements into your powers. Accept quests that direct you to convenient "private dungeons" and kill more monsters. Power up! Beat 'em up!

Ok, so really when you look at it not in comparison to other "sword and chainmail" type RPG games but as a cross between Diablo and Planetside, then it's clear that this game is pretty true to it's vision. It's all about rendering an assbeating to the bad guys, with as little inconvenience to the player as possible.

The only real question I have is if the MMO crowd will be able to maintain interest in it without the big timesink hell that they're used to. I mean, they cry about it now but if you take it away are they going to moan that "there's nothing to do but fight"?

For me, it's the first MMO I've really really liked. FFXI was pretty neat because on the surface the "usual suspects" were absent, but once I got into it, it became apparent that the same inconveniences were still there - just in Japanese form. Stuff like "Ok, stop fighting and go deliver 50 fedex quests so people like you, and then you can fight again." Screw that. COH suits me just fine.

[Brian Rucker]

Caught a reference to the Amber novels. There's a Benedict Industries and one passing civilian mentions her brother got a good cybernetic arm there. This tickled me because I was messing around with a mystic scrapper lifted directly from Bleys of Amber.

[Poops McGee]

I just got in the beta via the latest round. Look for Customer (his battlecry is "The Customer is always right!") running the streets!

I'm finding it very fun, and definitely a timesink, but I'm worried, as others have mentioned here, that it will become repetitive and not varied enough. With no crafting equivalent or any activity outside of fighting available, I'm hesitant to say the game has staying power. Course, I haven't got the power of flight yet. Holy crap it was cool running along the street and seeing a guy in the distance flying.

[Mark Asher]

I'm finding it very fun, and definitely a timesink, but I'm worried, as others have mentioned here, that it will become repetitive and not varied enough. With no crafting equivalent or any activity outside of fighting available, I'm hesitant to say the game has staying power. Course, I haven't got the power of flight yet. Holy crap it was cool running along the street and seeing a guy in the distance flying.

Unfortunately, your fears are a reality.

The game sort of has a double whammy going against it. The focus is narrow so there isn't much to do besides fight, and it also has a steep leveling curve that kicks in after level 14. You find yourself spending a lot of time to advance while doing the same thing over and over again.

I don't really know why they decided to make the leveling so slow. It just amplifies the lack of other things to do besides fight stuff.

If you find yourself a regular group to play with it's probably a bit easier to deal with the level curve.

You get your full flying power at level 14, btw. Before then you can get hover. Super speed and super jump are also lots of fun.

[Aszurom]

Doesn't Planetside suffer the same issue? Once you have driven every vehicle and shot every gun - well, that's all there was to do except fight.

The one major difference is that it's PVP instead of PVE.

One thing that is VERY nice about COH is that unlike a lot of games where you fight the same monster at lvl 30 that you did at lvl 5 except it's tougher and a different color - in COH, the mobs are wildly different as you level up. Lvl 30+ you'll be fighting mecha, vampires, werewolves, aliens in powered armor, and giant mushroom men with Ent buddies.

Here's something to do - if you've got a guy with invisibility, take the Green Line out of Steel Canyon and go to Talos Island. Head out the zone to Founders Park and turn invisible... now run around and look at the Balrog demons and everything I mentioned above. If that's not incentive to level up, nothing is.

[Mark Asher]

It's a shame that they reserve all that content for level 30+. It might take you 250 hours of playing to get to level 30. No one got that high in the beta that I'm aware of; Cryptic ended up bumping characters to 34 to test the high level content.

[synic]

Sounds like if they had a brain they'd ramp up the experience out of all enemies so you can level 1.5-2x as fast, and then get busy working on content for levels 40-50+. I was thinking that the "sidekick" bit of CoH was cool, but unless the mechanics of the experience, etc involved are worthwhile to min/maxing idiots I'm not sure if too many people will take advantage of it.

Oh yeah.... are there in-game cut-scenes like FF XI ? That was one thing I thought was kinda nice, since it didn't jar you out of the experience like the slide-shows from AC2 did.

[Walter Yarbrough]

Sounds like if they had a brain they'd ramp up the experience out of all enemies so you can level 1.5-2x as fast, and then get busy working on content for levels 40-50+. I was thinking that the "sidekick" bit of CoH was cool, but unless the mechanics of the experience, etc involved are worthwhile to min/maxing idiots I'm not sure if too many people will take advantage of it.

I don't think you appreciate just how difficult a task 'get busy working on content' for a MMOG really is.

For reference, it has taken them this long: 09/26/01 - 4/2/2004 to get to this point. (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/cityofheroes/news_2815078.html) . . .

-Walt

[Jafisob]

Sounds like if they had a brain they'd ramp up the experience out of all enemies so you can level 1.5-2x as fast, and then get busy working on content for levels 40-50+. I was thinking that the "sidekick" bit of CoH was cool, but unless the mechanics of the experience, etc involved are worthwhile to min/maxing idiots I'm not sure if too many people will take advantage of it.

I don't think you appreciate just how difficult a task 'get busy working on content' for a MMOG really is.

For reference, it has taken them this long: 09/26/01 - 4/2/2004 to get to this point. (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/cityofheroes/news_2815078.html) . . .


-Walt

Broken link?

How difficult is it to add content? Are the tools for most mmorpg's fleshed out to allow quick addition of dungeons/zones? Daoc?

[Walter Yarbrough]

There are many, many different types of content . . . it is such a nebulous term.

Any new art . . . requires artist time and download space.

Any new zones . . . may require additional hardware at the server farm

Any new abilities . . . may drastically unbalance the game (not as great a concern in a PvE game, such as CoH)

New server code . . . may increase server CPU time . . . or increase the packet size (jacking up your bandwidth bills).

And of course, the tiniest bug can be a game breaking exploit in a MMOG.

How difficult is it to add content? Are the tools for most mmorpg's fleshed out to allow quick addition of dungeons/zones? Daoc?

Our tools are good - the difficulty is in download space, artist time, and resources.

Much of Camelot is modular, for this exact reason, dungeons can be added to or modified, or a new dungeon can be created with only a few new pieces.

But, this leads to player complaints about "cut and paste" content - that throws you back into the artists time and download space problems.

-Walt

[mtkafka]

Well they got the Villains expansion coming...

"City of Villains —Want to play the bad guy in Paragon City? You'll get your chance in Cryptic Studios' City of Villains , currently under development and to be shown in limited play at E3. While City of Heroes ( www.cityofheroes.com ) is ready for an April 28 launch, Cryptic developers already are working on the first major expansion to the game that will allow players to take on the role of villain in Paragon's modern metropolis. Turn the tide on all the heroes and heroines and lead your crime syndicate into battle in the impressive 3D backdrop of Paragon City . "

http://www.plaync.com/about/press_release_042304.html

etc

[Brian Rucker]

Just some more quick thoughts. The combat is very candylike and addictive. And everything I hear indicates that the sense of being a superpowered hero gets better once you're much higher level with flight and all the other goodies that come along with experience.

What seems to be missing is a destructable environment. This may have been discussed and I just missed it. There doesn't seem to be much Hulk-style car tossing and streetlights swinging going on. No smashing foes through walls or windows. No shattered, rippling, pavement in the wake of a 5.0 Richter scale doublefisted piledrive.

The other thing is that many of the powers seem like duplicates of others with different graphics and slightly different effects - recovery time or power. After messing about a bit, at admittedly lower levels, there seems to be almost no difference between the various origins aside from who you liase with and the labels (training, etc.) stuck on the different powerups. This gives the impression that the amazing array of powers isn't really all that amazing.

Best thing so far - designing characters and costumes. Second best - combat. Third best - living city setting.

I've bought in and we'll see where it takes me though. I tend to agree with Mark that it will be interesting to see how long one remains interested giving the singular focus on grind and repetative combats as entertainment. Hopefully there will be a good deal of storytelling and events as time goes on. That's going to be absolutely key to retention here, I predict.

[Matthew Gallant]

What seems to be missing is a destructable environment. This may have been discussed and I just missed it. There doesn't seem to be much Hulk-style car tossing and streetlights swinging going on. No smashing foes through walls or windows. No shattered, rippling, pavement in the wake of a 5.0 Richter scale doublefisted piledrive.
Not really sure how you would pull this off in a persistent game populated by thousands. Either the city would be a big pile of rubble by the end of launch day, or server performance would be shot by controlling "repair crews". Maybe it would be good for the instanced areas.

[mtkafka]

I missed the Rikti invasion last night. DAMN! I got a Mind/Storm controller to level 21... it does get VERY slow from arnd 13 to 14... and then you hit level 20... whoah!..its even slower! EVEN IN A GROUP! I remember grouping with Asher a bit arnd level 14 and we both agreed the leveling was ESPECIALLY slow for solo players...albeit we were both controllers... the least soloable archetypes. Reminds me alot ofthe xp gain in EQ. I really think they have to either add more content per level gained regularly... or speed up the leveling... its not the 'grind' I mind so much as the long time to reach the newer content. I got to see some new places like the Tsoo base, pretty cool, but it takes up to 100 hours to reach new areas/tilesets from the initial ones.

BTW, I love the game still, and I do think if they can get this Villains expansion out before the end of the year (with some form of RvR type competition) the game will be even better

etc

[Mark Asher]

There is no destructible terrain. No way they could do it in the city, but I wonder if they could pull it off in the instanced environments? The game really does cry out for it.

A lot of the powers are just variations on one another. I think it's a bit of a problem because something needs to drive the players through the game, and after you get your super cool travel power at 14 (flight, super speed, super leap) there isn't as much to strive for. I think there are still some nice powers to grab, but nothing as exciting as your travel power.

I just can't do that slow leveling anymore. It's too aggravating, at least when there isn't much of a payoff. I don't think the game changes much until you hit level 30 or so. Could be wrong about that because I only got to level 15 before getting tired of the grind.

[Euri]

The review at the start of this thread isn't correct. You can pick more than one pool set. You can get 4, in fact.

Like I said almost a month ago, this game is going to fail bigtime. The levelling curve is way too tough. The death penalty is just retarded and over the top. There is 0 content outside of things with slightly different models. It contains every single bad element of every other MMO (except travel isn't quite as mind numbing) but doesn't really create anything new and good. They have a beautiful combat system, but it's so tedious after a while that I just don't see anyone playing this for very long.

What happens when you max your level? Sustaining an MMO is partly by the ability to create new characters, but mostly the ability to continually upgrade your own character. After you get a load of single origin enhancements, that's it. You're done. You can go around and pointlessly take pot shots at creatures, but you don't actually change and improve. This game lacks content hardcore, and unless they get out a lot of content REALLY FAST, people are going to lose interest in what IS there, before the next stuff is fed down the pipe.

I am thoroughly disappointed with this game.

[Mark Asher]

They do have rare enhancements at the higher levels. Some will boost two powers -- say range increase and damage increase, for example.

The thing about the loot is that it's kind of boring and there's not much of a sense of how to go for different kinds of loot. It's mostly random, as far as I can tell, though I wouldn't be surprised if different gang types dropped different origin types at the later levels.

(If you're magical in origin, for example, the Circle of Thorns baddies who are arcane in nature might be more likely to drop a magical origin enhancement, which would be better than a generic enhancement.)

I'd probably play it if they sped up the leveling by a good 200-250%. It's way too slow and agonizing now.

[mtkafka]

Kind of sucks that CoH is so slowwwwwww... it really is a fun game with the right group. It really just needs a few more gameplay enhancements. I'm not expecting crafting up the butt... just something more. Anyway...I personally would love a shooter hero game like CoH... that would friggin rock... maybe be like Diablo but with Superheroes or whatnut.

etc

[Walter Yarbrough]

The levelling curve is way too tough. The death penalty is just retarded and over the top.

Both of these things are ridiculously easy to change, if the game shows any sign of failing.

-Walt

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, it would be kind of fun to aim your blaster shots. CoH does have some flaky LOS modeling at least.

[synic]

Any new art . . . requires artist time and download space.

Not sure I understand you there, Walter. I didn't know that game artists did anything but make art resources... Isn't that their whole job?

[synic]

This game lacks content hardcore, and unless they get out a lot of content REALLY FAST, people are going to lose interest in what IS there, before the next stuff is fed down the pipe.

As we've seen from SWG some people will play anything despite it lacking PvE or questing content (items, variety of enemies, variety of quests, etc). Since CoH lacks the crafting options of SWG, as well as all the glorified emoting (dancing, singing, etc) that made it a graphical IRC for star wars geeks, I'm thinking that if Euri is correct about it lacking content in what it does actually have then it doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as subscriptions are concerned.

[Rorschach]

I remember back in the day the devs talked about using influence to purchase lairs and perhaps gear (batmobile, Javelin plane etc.) Also that the storyline would be a weekly paper that could feature players.

What else was hinted at last year that could really help out with distractions from the level grind?

[synic]

f13.net's "preview", or review of the beta, mentions how being able to purchase lairs or such for your heroes or guilds of heroes would be a great addition. Apparently there isn't such a thing, and I guess it's going to be yet another MMORPG where you have to wait forever to get a player housing expansion.

[Brian Rucker]

SWG is actually pretty good about some things it just depends what you like to do. If you get tired of shooting stuff, which some folks are known to, you have houses and player cities. Not perfect but there. There's a pretty robust crafting system and resource gathering structure. Again, not perfect but there. For social players there are entertaining professions and there's still one guild based on this going strong in our new city. Their variety doesn't come so much from the systems, which aren't great but are still vastly superior to those in any other game, but from doing 'gigs' in various cities, for various events. There's always the chance to experiment with new looks for a character through clothing or image design.

I'm pretty tough on SWG (lack of thematic content, reliance on old RPG models, incredibly weak GCW mechanisms and just inexplicable departures from melieu in the combat system and classes) mainly because it's a game that holds some great potential and Koster's one of those voices in the industry I really love to hear talking about what's to come. I'd just like him to get around to doing it, already.

Long term, if it survives into a long term, I expect that what SWG has gotten right through detail and options will retain and bring back players that stray to weaker and less flexible designs. Most players I know heading to CoH, and there's alot of them, aren't giving up their SWG accounts to do so. This is just something to keep them entertained until SWG is designed up to potential.

[Creole Ned]

Maybe a MMOG doesn't need to keep players over the longterm as long as they have a steady influx of new players coming in.

Obviously, a publisher would prefer someone to play the game for years rather than a few months, but if there's another person ready to jump in and the active list of subscribers remains constant, maybe it's not such a bad thing to think of players eventually getting bored and moving on.

I loved the original Age of Empires to bits. I played it for hundreds of hours. But I got bored and moved on. I don't think Ensemble was expecting me to keep playing it seven years later. Naturally, it helps that I bought the next two games they also put out. :) But the point is no game will keep someone interested forever (short of them being obsessed with it). New content may help retain some players but eventually I think most people will get bit by the "been there, done that" bug.

NCSoft seems to have a million or so MMOGs either out or due for release, so it almost seems that they are tacitly admitting that people may want to sample a little from MMOG A, then a little from MMOG B and so on.

I dunno, maybe I'm off my rocker on this one, but the "must retain current subscribers or MMOG = failure" mentality seems to be aimed more at hardcore players, not the masses that come and go with any game.

[synic]

Well said, Ned.

[Euri]

CoH doesn't have the same chat feel that EQ had.

See, in EQ, regardless of what you may have heard, new content was HARDLY needed to make most people happy. Being able to log on and play with all their webber friends was enough. There were a lot of ways to talk to people, talking was ENCOURAGED, and the entire thing was very social. I never got any of that social feeling in CoH, so it will need to rely on content to make people happy.

[Xaroc]

CoH will definitely need more content but I can tell you this much the combat is about 1 gazillion times more fun than SWG.

-- Xaroc

[Poops McGee]

I never got any of that social feeling in CoH, so it will need to rely on content to make people happy.

This was the feeling I got as well. When someone at work asked how I liked the game, I listed in the negative column how un-social it felt. The chat windows are awfully small (can you resize them?) and nobody really wanted to talk beyond "Looking for group!".

[Mark Asher]

The lack of chat in some of these MMOs may be tied to how action-oriented they are. I grouped one time and we made the circuit around Perez Park and killed maybe 300 mobs and hardly said a word. You can't type and fight at the same time.

Some of things that are considered negatives in MMOs actually contribute to the social aspects, such as downtime, camping a spot and waiting for spawns, etc.

[Sharpe]

This is also the dawning era of Teamspeak - I played CoH beta with a friend on Teamspeak and typed maybe a dozen words the whole time I was in beta. For a faster paced game, typing is worthless, but speech is great. And by chatting with my friend during play I found it to be a much MORE social experience than typing. YMMV.

Dan

[Walter Yarbrough]

This is also the dawning era of Teamspeak - I played CoH beta with a friend on Teamspeak and typed maybe a dozen words the whole time I was in beta. For a faster paced game, typing is worthless, but speech is great. And by chatting with my friend during play I found it to be a much MORE social experience than typing. YMMV.

Dan

That's an interesting comment. I always objected to TS in a fantasy MMOG - but a superhero one . . . fits much better.

-Walt

[Rob O'Boston]

What I think I'm hearing is that CoH doesn't have any real content and the leveling is too slow, but the combat is fun. How does this stack up against WoW? It sounds like WoW has plenty of content and fast (?) leveling, but is the combat as fun as it is in CoH (sorry to use 'fun', but I did get into the CoH beta for one day, and the combat was much more interesting than AC2 or DAOC)?

[SolomonGrundy]

http://chevalier.cc.ucf.edu/screenshots/coh/screenshot_0044.jpg

This just sold me the game.

Time to try a MMO game again.

[Walter Yarbrough]

http://www.covennex.com/~eteri/wife.gif

For some reason this one isn't selling my wife on her copy.

-Walt

[Matthew Gallant]

There was another, better, Wife 2.0 that was all robot except for the be-thonged crotch area. And the thong was red.

[stusser]

I wonder... is the superhero genre more male-dominated than high fantasy or sci-fi? You see plenty of fat chicks dressing up as klingons and elves, but not so many wonder women.

Thankfully.

[Mark Asher]

What I think I'm hearing is that CoH doesn't have any real content and the leveling is too slow, but the combat is fun. How does this stack up against WoW? It sounds like WoW has plenty of content and fast (?) leveling, but is the combat as fun as it is in CoH (sorry to use 'fun', but I did get into the CoH beta for one day, and the combat was much more interesting than AC2 or DAOC)?

The combat in WoW and CoH is similar in that you're always selecting some kind of attack or ability instead of watching passively. So it involves the player more.

[saebriel]

I'll play CoH since I can't hang with olaf in WoW, and I'm not an entirely fat chick either. I prefer chunky or "cow." :P
On a side note, I was fortunate enough to get one char to 5 and two to 4 before the lock for release. The few hours I was able to play seemed to be enough to entertain me for a while. I especially like the Natural Controller of Mind or Illusion, it makes it all too realistic - ha. Now only if it worked more effectively out of game (on olaf) than against mutated thugs.

Jena

[JAGuarinc]

From the POE forums...

"If any of you play City of Heroes, go into the D.A.T.A. room in Paragon City Hall and look at the PCs sitting on the desk. One of them has a browser (behind another window) that has the old (circa 2001) oldmanmurray page pulled up."

Screenshot is here (http://www.keeg.com/hostile/biya/coh_oldmanmurray.jpg)


Apologies if this has been noticed already.