A Shortlist Of Great PS2 Games

[madkevin]

Okay, so here's the story: I've been out of the gaming loop for a while now. My computer is an aging Celeron 450 with a GeForce 200, which still runs well enough to play all my old favourites (Civ III, Fallout, Deus Ex, Planescape, etc.) Console-wise I still have my old Playstation, because I am the bitch of any game that has the words "final" and "fantasy" in the title.

But recently, my DVD player went on the fritz, which I'm going to assume is a sign from God telling me to buy a Playstation 2. My wife, who also has a Final Fantasy monkey on her back, is salivating at the chance to get her mitts on FFX and Kingdom Hearts (she's also got a thing for Nightmare Before Christmas, which is another story).

So, the big question is: What games should I be most stoked about playing on the PS2? Are there any good turn-based games, a la Final Fantasy Tactics? Is Grand Theft Auto 3 all it's cracked up to be? I'm big on RPGs (obviously), strategy games and action games, but I'm willing to give any genre a chance for the sake of a really great gaming experience.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

-GTA3 Collection
-Culdcept
-Disgaea
-Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
-Beyond Good and Evil
-Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
-Final Fantasy X
-Ratchet and Clank 1 and 2

[Ben Sones]

I'd add Fatal Frame II and MX Unleashed to that list.

[chumpface]

Mark of Kri
Dark Cloud 2
Beyond Good and Evil

[Ben]

Xenosaga. Just for the subtitle, really. Every game should have incomprehensible foriegn subtitles.

Dark Cloud 2. It's so much fun for the first 8 hours that you can pretend that you beat the game and it was short but good.

Mark of Kri. Short, fun little action/stealth/birdhandling game. The best part is when you stab the guy right in his stupid head.

Metal Gear Solid 2. Plot is really stupid. Gameplay is fun, and even today it still has just marvelous production values.

Gran Turismo 3 is a great racing game(and can be had for cheap), but I dunno if you like those.

People mentioned most of the other good ones.

Oh, Tenchu is a must if you like stealth games or ninjas.

[Mike Cathcart]

In addition to some of the above, and in ascending order of title length:

Ico
Rez
Amplitude
Guilty Gear X2
Dynasty Tactics
Zone of the Enders 2

Dynasty Tactics is turn-based strategy, but not so much like FFT. It's almost a puzzle/strategy game and it's a ton of fun. If you use your units in the right order you can chain up some devastating combos.

Guilty Gear X2 is the prettiest 2D fighter ever made. Lots of wacky fun moves and crazy characters, definitely worth checking out.

ZoE2 is a 3rd person mech game, the best looking game on the PS2 (along with MGS2) and a lot of fun. Fast action, spectacular effects, and all kinds of ways to smash the bad guys to pieces.

Amplitude is the best game of all time. No, really, it's been scientifically proven. It's a rhythm shooter where you assemble songs one instrument at a time by hitting targets in time with the music. Owning this game gives you +2 to awesomeness. Completing Insane difficulty gives you +10.

Rez is also a musical shooter, but it's about as different from Amplitude as you can get. It's a third person shooter on rails with techno music where shots that you take and enemy explosions are actually part of the music. The major knock against it is that it's short (can be played in 4-5 hours), but it does have a decent amount of replay, especially if you like techno music or great games.

Ico is a cool adventure/puzzle game. Save the girl from the puzzle-filled castle. Really cool art style and amazing atmosphere (very little music, it's a cool effect).

Sorry for not being very descriptive, but I have to get back to being pissed off at Planetside.

[DennyA]

War of the Monsters if you're looking for a fun, mindless two-player game.

[Dirt]

Ratchet and Clank (along with the sequel)
Jak and Daxter (i haven't played the sequel yet)

[mtkafka]

Dark Cloud 2
Dynasty Warriors 3 or 4
Gran Turismo 3 A Spec
Tekken Tag Tournament
GTA 3 and VC (since your pc likely cant run them)
Ratchet and Clank
Jak and Dakster
Klonoa 2
Gauntlet Dark Legacy

Only Dark Cloud 2, GTA 3/VC and Gran Turismo 3 are the ones I would wholeheartedly recommend.

I would also add Champions of Norrath but I dont have it yet... but it looks real good!

etc

[Theodore Rex DX]

Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter
Ratchet and Clank 1 or 2
The GTAs
BG&E
Ico
Ape Escape 2

For fuck's sake, don't get Kingdom Hearts.

[dannimal]

Kingdom Hearts is plenty fine for someone who likes the genre and is a casual gamer. It's certainly not flawless, but my wife (as an example) got a great deal of enjoyment out of it.

[LionelThompson]

Most of these are repeats, but I'm adding them for EMPHASIS:

Culdcept - turn based mix of Monopoly and Magic, get this one NOW! Read the review on the holiday guide here if you need to.

Ico - although not completely like the old Out of This World, the game seems to have the same spirit. Not particularly long, but it makes up for it in quality.

Wratchet & Clank 2 - I've taken a short break from it, but this is one worth beating twice.

Simpson's Hit & Run - If you like GTA3, and you like Simpsons, you owe this one to yourself. If you aren't fans of either, you can skip it (but you shouldn't!).

Dark Cloud 2 - If you can get past the first 20 or 30 minutes, you will open up several hours of fantastic and relatively varied gameplay. You may not make it to the end, but finishing all the towns and the challenge of each one is fantastic!

DDR - if you are a fat bastard, or are looking to keep in shape, give this a shot. Best yet if you pick up a couple of dance pads to either compete or to workout dancing to both pads at once.

Kingdom Hearts - You already mentioned this one, and I will second it. A couple of the levels sucked (Little Mermaid stands out), but the enjoyment of the game, the quality of the animation and voicework (not counting when Donald Duck says 'fuck you'), and the pace of the game make it a must have.

[Dave Long]

Just be aware that you might not like Kingdom Hearts that much. Sure, it's cool to see all the Final Fantasy characters in a game together and yeah, the animation is great, but when you get to the game part of it, well... plbtbtbtbtbtbt...

Oh, and no one said Maximo. That game rox. Also, if you have any interest in soccer or even just sports games in general then you absolutely should buy Winning Eleven 6 or the newly released WE7. It's the best simulation/action style sports game ever made IMO. Nothing compares when it comes to accurately representing the sport AND being a blast to control and play.

--Dave

[dannimal]

The reason I defended KH was that he mentioned his wife was anticipating it (as opposed to him, who seemed the more serious gamer). To a more casual gamer, KH doesn't suffer as much from gameplay issues.

[DeathMonkey]

A bit redudant, but I have to recommend:

Ico
Rez
Frequency & Amplitude

All four are brilliant, can't miss games that I think are the best console titles in the last 5 years.

Others games I recommend that aren't exclusive to the PS2:

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time
Beyond Good & Evil
TimeSplitters 2

-Scott-

[Michael Fitch]

Greetings:
Just because no one's mentioned them yet, I'll throw in
Tony Hawk (Pro Skater 3 and 4 can be had for cheap)
SSX/SSX 3 (I didn't like Tricky as much)

I'm not really a sports gamer, but I got many, many, many hours of entertainment out of those two series. They both have good combinations of RPG-lite character development along with action gameplay and solid space designs.

Just my two cents.

Michael.

[Mike Cathcart]

D'oh! I can't believe I forgot Maximo! One of the best action games this generation.

Oh, and Devil May Cry (the original). You might get sick of DMC before the end and give up on it, but until then it is an amazing action game with a terrific battle system. It takes a long time until that sword uppercut/shotgun combo gets old.

[Tyjenks]

I'd like to echo what Mr. Fitch says. Whether you like sports games or not the SSX series is incredible. Like many, I initially said "Who gives two shits about a snowboarding game?", but the trick system and scoring system and crazy track layouts make for a great ride.

NBA Street I and II. Better than NBA Jam ever thought about being and I loved NBA Jam.

[TriggerHappy]

I need to second Culdcept. Most addictive game I've ever played on any system, even if the computer does seem to cheat from time to time.

Also Virtua Fighter 4. As a former kickboxer, Virtua Fighter 4 : Evolution seems to be the deepest and most sophisticated fighter out there. Huge learning curve if you want to beat the game on normal difficulty, but what a sweet learning curve it is. :D

[Moore]

gta3

gtaVC

rez

contra:SS

Rtype-Final

Gradius 5 (not out but it is fuuuuun unless they messed something up since last may, more reminiscent of salamander ][ than gradius IMO, but thats a good thing)

That is pretty much all I've found that I liked enough to own and not trade or sell. Oh, Ring of Red was really really interesting. Not much fun but I really liked it anyways.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

Kingdom Hearts is plenty fine for someone who likes the genre and is a casual gamer. It's certainly not flawless, but my wife (as an example) got a great deal of enjoyment out of it.
Are you kidding?! I'm most definitely a "hardcore" gamer and Kingdom Hearts was one of the fucking HARDEST recent console releases I've ever played!

...of course, I played as a Mage and got the beginning that gives you an experience penalty with no compensation for the rest of the game, so I was sorta screwed from the beginning.

If you get this, remember: Bright and Happy = EXTREMELY GOOD when you answer the personality questions at the beginning. I got the gloomy character analysis, and it made the game nigh impossible.

[Ephraim]

I believe new PS2s all ship with the online adaptor now?

If so, and you're considering online play, then definitely consider Champions of Norrath (addictive, Diablo-esque gameplay, fun with the friends) and SOCOM II (squad based FPS, good single player game, intense multiplayer).

And of course Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. It really does meet expectations raised by the hype.

[extarbags]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.

Amplitude is amazing.

Guilty Gear X2 is the best fighting game ever made. Probably.

Rez is essential if you don't already have it for the Dreamcast.

Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven is a great stealth game, if you like those.

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter was the best game of last year, for any platform.

[Greg417]

I can't wait for Gradius V to be released. Gradius 3 was one of my all time favorite SNES games.

[Mike Cathcart]

I believe new PS2s all ship with the online adaptor now?


Just the ones in the online pack, which costs $199. THe standard PS2 is still available at $180.

[BobJustBob]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.

Vice City has an average score of 94% at gamerankings, and it's one of the highest selling games ever. Critical acclaim and commercial success.

It's not overrated. You just don't like it.

[extarbags]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.

Vice City has an average score of 94% at gamerankings, and it's one of the highest selling games ever. Critical acclaim and commercial success.

It's not overrated. You just don't like it.

Sorry, I didn't realize that the game's high ratings were proof that the game is not overrated.

[MindToyGames]

I need to second Culdcept. Most addictive game I've ever played on any system, even if the computer does seem to cheat from time to time.

I was wondering if I was the only one who thought that! It's happened too much to be a coincidence.

If i'm sitting 4 spaces away from my opponent's biggest toll space, about 60% of the time i'll roll a friggin' 4, right on cue. :? :lol:

Derek
Stormcloud Creations
www.stormcloudcreations.com

[Tyrion Lannister]

DDR Max
Maximo
Ico
Devil May Cry
Kingdom Hearts (my kids loved this game)
Dark Cloud II

I find that I have a much shorter list for the PS2 than I do for the Cube. Hmm, odd.

[BobJustBob]

The fact that the game's high ratings are backed up by high sales are proof that's it not overrated. Reading comprehension's not your strong suit, eh?

[extarbags]

The fact that the game's high ratings are backed up by high sales are proof that's it not overrated. Reading comprehension's not your strong suit, eh?

Are you insane? "Overrated" means that it isn't as good as it is widely considered to be. The only way you could "prove" that something isn't overrated is by showing me low sales numbers and bad reviews.

[Robert Sharp]

Kingdom Hearts is plenty fine for someone who likes the genre and is a casual gamer. It's certainly not flawless, but my wife (as an example) got a great deal of enjoyment out of it.

I am a hardcore gamer and Kingdom Hearts is one of the best games I ever played. I loved it.

[Robert Sharp]

I'm going to second Bob here, but not for the reasons he gives. GTA3 and GTAVC are both excellent games. They are full of atmosphere and little things to find and do. Nice exploration games, especially if you like squeezing every bit out of a game. I enjoyed them both and played VC as much as any other PS2 game that I own.

[Captain Tenneal]

I would definately chalk one up for Kingdom Hearts, (Little Mermaid aside, it was a great game, and if you're creative, you'll like gummi ships) FFX and FFX-2 (they pretty much go hand and hand) GTA3 , if you don't mind the 80's; Vice City, Twisted Metal Black, the list goes on...

[curst]

Boo to everyone leaving out survival-horror games! Actually, I think I get why they're being left out of the discussion - I'd have a hard time including any such game in a list of "must-have" titles. But if you're down for some scares, don't neglect:

(in no particular order, I guess)

Silent Hill 1 or 3
Fatal Frame 2
the upcoming *totally awesome looking* Forbidden Siren and *totally, um, Silent-Hill looking* Silent Hill 4

I'm leaving off of the list:

Silent Hill 2 because while it tells one of the most intriguing stories I've ever seen in a game, it's incredibly short on scares. Making a horror game that has no horror in it seems to be missing the point to me. There's exactly one creature in the game that is genuinely creepy, and he only appears every so often.

Fatal Frame 1 because I liken it to System Shock 2 - it's so incredibly frustrating that it manages to detract from the great creepy atmosphere.

The entire Clock Tower series because it just didn't click with me. Pretty damn disturbing cutscenes, but not much else. I'm probably being unfair there since I never finished CT3, which is the only one I've played.

The entire Resident Evil series, but only because I haven't played any yet, not because I'm some Silent Hill ultra-fanboy who believes they're too low-brow to be worth considering.

[extarbags]

I'm going to second Bob here, but not for the reasons he gives. GTA3 and GTAVC are both excellent games. They are full of atmosphere and little things to find and do. Nice exploration games, especially if you like squeezing every bit out of a game. I enjoyed them both and played VC as much as any other PS2 game that I own.

Did you ever play the original?

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.I can't stree enough how bogus this statement is.

GTA3 and Vice City are miracles of gaming, and are easily two of the best games ever made.

[extarbags]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.I can't stree enough how bogus this statement is.

GTA3 and Vice City are miracles of gaming, and are easily two of the best games ever made.

That doesn't make my opinion bogus, actually.

[Chas]

When it comes to music games, don't forget Gitaroo Man. It's very quirky in a Japanese way, but as much fun as Amplitude / Frequency.

[Theodore Rex DX]

(Little Mermaid aside, it was a great game, and if you're creative, you'll like gummi ships)

Okay, this is the final fucking straw.

I can tolerate people who like KH, provided they are apologetic and sheepish about their guilty pleasure, but damn you to hell if you recommend it over any other game for the PS2, and damn you to hell if you'll defend even its lousiest aspects.

Kingdom Hearts is a shitty, shitty game. It's awful. It's the worst game I've played this generation and I've played Silent Hill 2 and Rebel Strike.
But! It has some redeeming values. If you can get past the truly shitty interface, shitty camera, shitty jumping bits, hopeless teammate AI, generic cut & paste gameplay, total lack of enemy variety, mindless repetition, button mashing, lousy character design, trademark Square pretension and angst, manipulative Disney heart-string-pulling, bloated and clumsy story, pop songs, ugly and interfering market pandering ... you might find some redeeming aspects.
Most of these are pretty give or take - for instance, lush environments/animation and high production values are just annoying in something that is innately terrible - but you can still appreciate them for what they are. Also, some of the gameplay isn't that bad - it's tolerable. There are dozens or similar games that are better, but it seems unfair on KH to call it 'bad' simply because it's nowhere near as good as them.
But! The Gummi Ship is not one of these sorta-okay things. It is undeniably the worst thing about a lousy game. Creative people don't want to tool around with idiotic dumbness when they could just imagine building a giant Gummi ship, loading it with all the artists, programmers, designers and marketing execs who contrived this piece of shit game and then lovingly slam the ship into a cattle corral filled with the people who paid for this stupid goddamn piece of stupid cunty shit game oh god it sucks.

Oh yeah - Jak and Daxter sucks too, as does Twisted Metal Black. Rez and Guilty Gear are overrated and GTA is not.

[scharmers]

The "new convert" list of PS2 games ala scharmers:

1. Culdcept. Oh yeah, baby. But, like has been subtlely mentioned by myself and others in this and other threads: the computer is a fucking cheater. Big time. Perfect rolls like all the time. Still an awesome game though.

2. Champions of Norrath. Diablo 2. On a console. OF THE FUTURE!

3. Tony Hawk games. I recommend starting at 3 and going up from there.

And while Extarbags is, like, an idiot for calling the GTA3+ games "overrated" (hint: not liking a wildly popular game does not make it "overrated". That's like me calling KOTOR "overrated"...which it is, naturally, because I say so.), I didn't like VC on the PS2 because of the damn controller. VC is filled with tweaky shooting galleries and the gamepad just doesn't cut it. Mouse and keyboard are perfect. So, if you want the GTAs, skip the consoles and get them for the PC. They are must haves.

I'd recommend Dark Cloud 2, but the game got inexplicably tedious for me after the 2nd village. Weird. The game is definitely a time sink, that's for sure.

4. DOA2: Hardcore. I like fighters, but I'm not good at them at all. DOA2 suitably rewards my frenzied button-mashing with appropriate results (as opposed to VF Evolution). Plus it has b00bies going kaboing kaboing kaboing.

There's my big golden shower of PS2 hits.

--scharmers

[Ben]

I'm still puzzled by extarbags' cryptic "Did you ever play the original?" comment. Does he mean GTA1? If so, why would he ask that?

[Dave Long]

Because GTA III is essentially the same game in 3D?

--Dave

[Ben]

Which of the two games have you not played, Dave?

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

I can't stress enough how overrated the GTA series is.I can't stree enough how bogus this statement is.

GTA3 and Vice City are miracles of gaming, and are easily two of the best games ever made.

That doesn't make my opinion bogus, actually.
It's only my opinion that your opinion is bogus. :roll:

[MrCircuit]

So it's extrabags' opinion that the GTA games are overrated to HIM. Saying something is overrated is just another way of trying to justify to everyone that your opinion is different than the vast majority's. "I feel this way and everyone else feels differently becasue they're misguided."

As for Mr. Long's comment about GTA3 being "essentially the same game in 3D", that's pretty much like saying Sega's Tennis 2K2 is the same as Pong. Sure, the objective's the same, but the experience is changed substantially because of the 3D element.

[extarbags]

So it's extrabags' opinion that the GTA games are overrated to HIM. Saying something is overrated is just another way of trying to justify to everyone that your opinion is different than the vast majority's. "I feel this way and everyone else feels differently becasue they're misguided."

I really don't know why people are having so much trouble understanding this concept: the GTA games are huge sellers that got great reviews. Most people value them highly. And yet, I think they are godawful rehashes of a game that got tired in three weeks the first time they made it. Why wouldn't I say they're overrated?

And stop trying to refute it. Christ, it's all a matter of opinion, geniuses. If I said a game was good that you didn't like, would you expect me to offer proof that I'm "right?" It's an opinion. Opinions don't require proof or justification. God.


As for Mr. Long's comment about GTA3 being "essentially the same game in 3D", that's pretty much like saying Sega's Tennis 2K2 is the same as Pong. Sure, the objective's the same, but the experience is changed substantially because of the 3D element.

Very debatable, as the entire reason I hate GTA3/VC is because the 3d element doesn't seem to add anything at all.

[Andrew Mayer]

I really don't know why people are having so much trouble understanding this concept: the GTA games are huge sellers that got great reviews. Most people value them highly. And yet, I think they are godawful rehashes of a game that got tired in three weeks the first time they made it. Why wouldn't I say they're overrated?

And stop trying to refute it. Christ, it's all a matter of opinion, geniuses. If I said a game was good that you didn't like, would you expect me to offer proof that I'm "right?" It's an opinion. Opinions don't require proof or justification. God.


If you can't back up your opinion with anything it has no value to others. If it has no value to others why bother stating it in a public forum?

And, for the record, the "everybody is crazy but me" argument isn't helping...

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

And stop trying to refute it. Christ, it's all a matter of opinion, geniuses. If I said a game was good that you didn't like, would you expect me to offer proof that I'm "right?" It's an opinion. Opinions don't require proof or justification. God.
*dons the extarbags hat*

Waaaaaah! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah! "It's MY opinion! You can't refute it!" :sniffle: "YOU DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT YOU BIG MEANIE!"

*takes dunce cap off*

Your opinion, yes. That's fine. Frankly, I don't care. I think your opinion is idiotic and I'm pretty sure I have just as much a right to trash it as you have to present it.

Frankly, I sense alot of passive-agression in all your posts.

[MrCircuit]

Eesh, no crap. All I was saying was that your opinion is not fact, as you presented it, extrabags. I'm not trying to "refute" anything. I just don't understand your use of the term "overrated", which seems to say that the tons of people who like the game are somehow wrong.

[LogRoller]

I find this thread content terribly overrated.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Not great, but well worth getting is Namco's Killswitch. The controls are practically identical to Socom, in other words they have a steep initial learning curve, but feel natural after about two hours of play. The game is a lot of fun. It is single player only, but still very good.

[Chris Nahr]

extarbags is objectively correct because I agree with him. The rest of you are wrong.

Also, it's funny that a couple of people lost interest in Dark Cloud 2 after 10 hours or so because that's been my experience as well. Maybe only those who have steeled themselves by finishing Flying Heroes can fully appreciate DC2? :wink:

[madkevin]

The reason I defended KH was that he mentioned his wife was anticipating it (as opposed to him, who seemed the more serious gamer). To a more casual gamer, KH doesn't suffer as much from gameplay issues.

Oh, she's serious enough. It's just that I have a good twenty years head start on her.

What gameplay issues should I warn her about?

[edited because, amazingly, I temporarily forgot how to spell years.]

[dannimal]

Well, some of the things TRexDx touched on. Only, you need to remove all the "Welfare Man's DrCrypt" hyperbole from it.

[Robert Sharp]

I agree with Theodore that the gummi ships were terrible. I hated that part of the game. But I liked the combat. Yes, it was simplistic in many ways, but there were spells, skills, etc. I felt like my character developed in the game and I really enjoyed the puzzles, platforming and the basic story. I have always liked Disney movies, and playing through some of them was a lot of fun to me. I would have liked to have played a Lion King world (over, say the Tarzan world), but I liked what I got. I especially enjoyed the Arabian world and the Neverland world...the flying was easy to control and somehow felt liberating.

There...that's why I liked the game.

[tromik]

Devil May Cry
Rachet and Clank
Virtua Fighter 4: Evo
GT3 A-Spec
Culdcept

[Chris Nahr]

Oh, and Time Splitters 2 was really great. I can't believe that just a single person has recommended it so far!

[MattKeil]

A few more:

Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution - Greatest fighter ever made.

Ico - Just to emphasize that yes, you must play this game.

Rez - Import the TranceVibrator. Trust me.

Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers/Return of the King - Two great hack and slashers. If you like the movies, grab these immediately.

Silent Hill 2 - The earlier poster who said SH2 is light on scares is correct. There are very few jump-scares or "Yikes!" moments in the game. That's because SH2 is character-driven, relies on atmosphere and revelation to create its sense of fear, and never quite lets you feel like you know everything. Most other horror games hit you over the head with the proverbial 2x4 of terror. SH2 gives you food poisoning and watches you suffer with a smile on its face. The best horror game made to date.

Sly Cooper and the Thievius Raccoonus - In addition to Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter, pick this one up. Beautiful animation, intensely well-designed levels, and just a masterwork of platforming. I wish these guys would make a new game.

Kya: Dark Lineage - Pretty nifty little platformer that can be had cheap now. Many of the girls I know have gotten into this one, so it may be one to try your wife on.

Gitaroo Man - Just because it's the weirdest damn thing you're likely to play on the system.

GTA Double Pack - Despite all the "STFU!" screaming, extarbags is right when he says the GTA games are overrated. I might not agree normally, but I've had so many goddamned people call them "The Best Game Ever!" who have played GTA, Gran Turismo, and maybe Pac-Man back in '82, that I can't honestly say they deserve the praise so many people pile on them. That said, they are indeed great games, and everyone should play them, if only to see what all the fuss is about. You also get a ridiculous amount of value in this package. $40 for two games that will probably take you the better part of 100 hours to finish.

Suikoden Series - If you like the RPGs, go find copies of Suikoden I & II for the PSone (they'll play in the PS2, of course), and Suikoden III, and get to it.

Vandal Hearts II - Another PSone game, but a great strategy title with one of the most brutal stories I've seen in a console game.

[Robert Sharp]

Well, if we are including PS1 games (I didn't know), then get Final Fantasy Tactics. That's the best console game I have ever played. And I have to say I hated Vandal Hearts 2, but I liked the first one. The second one had that whole weapons=jobs thing going on, which I don't like at all. It was confusing...not in a good way. Of course, just because I didn't like it doesn't mean you won't.

[MattKeil]

Taste in strategy RPGs seems to be a strange beast. I loved the VH games and the Shining Force series, but I despised Final Fantasy Tactics. And yet I really liked FFTA.

I think one of the things that really ticked me off most about FFT on the PSone was just how much of a damage bonus you got if you were to the side or behind an enemy. I got incredibly sick of seeing enemies just sashay around my guys and whack them in the back of the head. Doesn't fucking happen, folks. There is no school of tactical strategy that covers making sure your troops don't get hit in the back while they're walking in place waiting for it to be their turn again. The entire concept of added damage from behind in a turn-based game that takes place on the small-scale maps of FFT is retarded, IMO.

Then again, lots of people love it, so I can't say one should not give it a try. The music and story are actually pretty awesome. I finished FFT just to see how the story would turn out, in fact.

[tromik]

I think one of the things that really ticked me off most about FFT on the PSone was just how much of a damage bonus you got if you were to the side or behind an enemy. I got incredibly sick of seeing enemies just sashay around my guys and whack them in the back of the head. Doesn't fucking happen, folks. There is no school of tactical strategy that covers making sure your troops don't get hit in the back while they're walking in place waiting for it to be their turn again. The entire concept of added damage from behind in a turn-based game that takes place on the small-scale maps of FFT is retarded, IMO.

It's called flanking. Only on a 1 on 1 basis almost. Still.

[Ben]

Well, yes, but that makes a lot less sense in a tactical game like FFT than in a grander scale strategy game.

Anyway, I hated FFT. Every combat took forever, the class sytem needed refinement, and the plot/dialogue/etc was stupid.

[TomChick]

There is no school of tactical strategy that covers making sure your troops don't get hit in the back while they're walking in place waiting for it to be their turn again. The entire concept of added damage from behind in a turn-based game that takes place on the small-scale maps of FFT is retarded, IMO.

What I hate is how your guys just stand there when they're getting attacked. They should at least get out of the way. I mean, in real life, a warrior would know to step into the next square if someone is attacking the square he's standing in. I also hate how the guys never have to go to the bathroom, which is completely unrealistic.

Holy cow, it's a gameplay convention that makes perfect sense. Flanking, like tromik said. Keep your dudes together. Protect each other's flanks and rears. Don't get double-teamed.

I suppose next you'll be telling us Metroid Prime isn't a first person shooter. :)

-Tom

[Theodore Rex DX]

You added the space to his name in the quote. That was very sweet of you. A scholar and a gentleman.

[Theodore Rex DX]

Sly Cooper and the Thievius Raccoonus - In addition to Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter, pick this one up. Beautiful animation, intensely well-designed levels, and just a masterwork of platforming. I wish these guys would make a new game.

It will be revealed next week, apparently.

[DeathMonkey]

While I really enjoyed FFT, the game's greatest fault was *not* the inclusion of flanking. They were, as listed:

1. The vast differences in usefulness of character classes/skills. The monk class was far too well rounded in the early game to need to explore other classes and magic was practically useless. And who every used any static skill other than JP up?

2. NPCs that were a thousand times better than anyone in your actual party. TG Cid anyone? It is fun to have some random character thrown in your party that makes one of your hand crafted since the beginning of the game characters useless.

3. The random and severe difficulty spikes throughout the game. I don't think the game ever made it through play balancing, because levels were alternately cakewalks or took you two weeks to beat. Well, until you got TG Cid, who could prance around unhurt after your real party croaked.

4. The plot was, dare I say, retarded. I loved the first act or book or whatever, but as the game progressed my comprehension of the plot decreased. There are several cutscenes that involved characters being introduced then subsequently stabbed to death IN THE SAME THREE MINUTE SCENE. I'd say this occurs no less than 8 times. I can deal with that, but it is hard to deal with any game seriously when the final boss is Jesus on a pirate ship! I'm serious!

Ok, griping over.

-Scott-

[zabuni]

FFT never was a good game for balance. I still remember my roommate having all calculators and holy absorbing equipment. Could kill an entire map full of enemies within the first turn.

[Dirt]

Taste in strategy RPGs seems to be a strange beast. I loved the VH games and the Shining Force series, but I despised Final Fantasy Tactics. And yet I really liked FFTA.

I think one of the things that really ticked me off most about FFT on the PSone was just how much of a damage bonus you got if you were to the side or behind an enemy. I got incredibly sick of seeing enemies just sashay around my guys and whack them in the back of the head. Doesn't fucking happen, folks. There is no school of tactical strategy that covers making sure your troops don't get hit in the back while they're walking in place waiting for it to be their turn again. The entire concept of added damage from behind in a turn-based game that takes place on the small-scale maps of FFT is retarded, IMO.

Then again, lots of people love it, so I can't say one should not give it a try. The music and story are actually pretty awesome. I finished FFT just to see how the story would turn out, in fact.

Yeah, Gladius treats this alot better. You can only flank someone if they are already engaged in battle with someone else in front of them.

[Tyjenks]

You guys are nuts not liking FFT. I guess it is a matter of taste because as far as pure gameplay is concerned, I enjoyed those battles and character building more than any game on the PSOne.

Now Vandal Hearts II and Suikoden III....cut scenes and story exposition and long periods with no battles.....blech! I loved VH I and the original Suikoden, but they simply "movied" up the sequels much too much for my liking. I just want to kill shit and build shit and buy shit and all that shit suffered in those titles, IMO.

[Dirt]

shit

[Tyjenks]

I just want to kill shit and build shit and buy shit

Words to live by as written in Chicken Soup for the Soul.

[Mike Cathcart]

Did you just quote your own post? Look out, McCullough.

By the way, did you ever play Ogre Battle 64 (on the N64, of course)? If not, the console is worth getting just to play that game (which will probably cost you more than the console). You can spend entire days on the planning screen, it's probably the most fun non-actiony thing in a game ever. Not only are you managing the classes and equipment for all of your characters, but you have to break them into squads and arrange them in a manner that allows for the most possible damage. The whole thing is just incredible, completely different than FFT but designed by the same guy (I think, maybe someone needs to correct me there). Easily my favorite console strategy game.

Oh, and Time Splitters 2 was really great. I can't believe that just a single person has recommended it so far!

Yeah, good call. I rarely consider the PS2 version of multi-platform games because they always have the worst load times, but yeah, TS2 rules.

[Theodore Rex DX]

Yeah, Gladius treats this alot better. You can only flank someone if they are already engaged in battle with someone else in front of them.

That's cool. I like that. Might check this game out if I can find it cheap.

[Robert Sharp]

You guys are nuts not liking FFT. I guess it is a matter of taste because as far as pure gameplay is concerned, I enjoyed those battles and character building more than any game on the PSOne.

Now Vandal Hearts II and Suikoden III....cut scenes and story exposition and long periods with no battles.....blech! I loved VH I and the original Suikoden, but they simply "movied" up the sequels much too much for my liking. I just want to kill shit and build shit and buy shit and all that shit suffered in those titles, IMO.

Tyjenks and I are alike in our views on gaming. He and Jason McMaster will now be my voice on such matters.

[Dave Long]

The whole thing is just incredible, completely different than FFT but designed by the same guy (I think, maybe someone needs to correct me there). Easily my favorite console strategy game.

I'm not sure what Matsuno's involvement was on Ogre Battle 64. Quest software did the programming and design and all that and he was there when it was done. I'm not sure he's the designer on that one though. What's crazy is that Square actually gave him Final Fantasy XII. Vagrant Story and even the Final Fantasy Tactics games, as great as they are, were not super sellers. But it was clear how Matsuno's vision made them unique and amazingly fun to play. I can't wait to see what he does with FFXII.

--Dave

[Robert Sharp]

Tactics became a greatest hit even with limited quantities being shipped on its original run. It became rare fast, so I am not sure how to judge its sales.

[MattKeil]

What I hate is how your guys just stand there when they're getting attacked. They should at least get out of the way. I mean, in real life, a warrior would know to step into the next square if someone is attacking the square he's standing in. I also hate how the guys never have to go to the bathroom, which is completely unrealistic.

I know you're being facetious and all, but the first half of your paragraph makes perfect sense to me. I can understand letting characters get to one side or behind simply to allow ganging up, but it's simply retarded that you can walk up to someone, go around to their side, and do more damage. It makes no sense. Hit them from the side, sure, but a damage bonus for something that has no actual equivalent in a real fight?

Holy cow, it's a gameplay convention that makes perfect sense. Flanking, like tromik said. Keep your dudes together. Protect each other's flanks and rears. Don't get double-teamed.

So essentially, in FFT-speak, that means march everyone together in a straight line like a bunch of British redcoats. It's possible to setup a defensive line in a game with a number of characters and an actually useful repel field around each guy, like in Shining Force. In FFT, nobody can really block anything unless they're right next to someone. And again, how does walking up to you and to the side, then whacking you in the arm qualify as "flanking"? Entire masses of forces flank each other. The only way to make FFT happen is to hypnotize your foe.

As stated elsewhere in the thread, the only game to really handle this with any sensibility is Gladius, in which a character can only be "flanked" if they're already otherwise engaged.

I suppose next you'll be telling us Metroid Prime isn't a first person shooter. :)

I could, but that pretty much goes without saying. :P