Dom2: What up with the Void Gate?

[Rywill]

Can someone explain how this damn Void Gate works? I can't find anything about it in the manual or help text. It says "Enter to summon void beasts." Only certain commanders (priests, I think?) can take the "Enter Void Gate" command, but when I do it, nothing happens. WTF?

[Rob O'Boston]

I thought I read that only R'yleh can make use of void gates. I have no first hand experience though. But, come on, it's a void gate, who else but the spawn of Cthulu would want to go in there.

[Rywill]

No, I know, but I'm playing R'yleh (in a game against the AI), and I can't get it to work. There's a certain type of Starspawn that is a third-level priest, and IIRC he's the only commander who can be told "Enter Void Gate" (not even my pretender can go in). But I give the order, and next turn everything's exactly the same. Although most of the commander orders are covered in the manual, this one isn't.

[Johan O]

No, I know, but I'm playing R'yleh (in a game against the AI), and I can't get it to work. There's a certain type of Starspawn that is a third-level priest, and IIRC he's the only commander who can be told "Enter Void Gate" (not even my pretender can go in). But I give the order, and next turn everything's exactly the same. Although most of the commander orders are covered in the manual, this one isn't.Just keep him summoning, there is a cumulative chance that he will succesfully summon a critter. Succes is certain after 3-4 turns. As soon as he has succesfully summoned one critter the summoner will recieve summoning skill that will increase the power (but not the probability of getting) the critters from the gate. All commanders have a chance of going insane or being attacked when they use the gate. The starspawn priests are much less likely to suffer insanity.

[Rywill]

Thanks Johan!

[TheWombat]

I may go insane trying to figure out what is going on in this game :) I know there's a good or even great strategy game here but man is this obtuse at times....

[Doug Erickson]

Yeah, I used to think I was a smart sumbitch, but this game's interface has me completely baffled. Can someone link Geryk's FAQ again?

[Rywill]

Walkthrough: http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/walkthru.html (now hosted on the official site in even harder-to-read colors!!)

Strat guide: http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/strategy_guide.html

An honest suggestion to Johan O and crew: this is an awesome game, but in the future, I'd much rather have had a manual that explained stuff like the Void Gate and didn't have the magic item list. Maybe give some examples of items, but let the player discover what can actually be forged. Use the space for explaining more of the game mechanics. Just a thought.

[Tom Chick]

I'd like to second Ryan's comment, Johan. The more I play this game, the more I realize your documentation just isn't up to par. For such a great game, it's a shame Illwinter/Shrapnel couldn't have met the player a little closer to half-way in terms of explaining how things (spells, nations, magic items, morale, etc.) work. Tsk, tsk.

-Tom

[wisefool]

Any astral priest can summon from void gate.

The starspawn priests have a 5% (?) chance of going insane, the national hero (forget name?) has lowest chance at 3%. it's in the readme.txt iirc. These are best chances you can get with it.

Also, the higher summoning skill the better monsters that come out. Put five units on guard commander, so when they get attacked by horrors they can survive.

the little assassin/cheapo priests also work for summoning.. but they die pretty fast. It's handy if you don't want to risk a priest and don't mind a useless assasin afterwards heh.

[Tom Chick]

it's in the readme.txt iirc.

Readme.txt? What readme.txt? My install has no such beast.

-Tom

[Anders Hallin]

Hey Johan, seeing how I'm in a country to the far north... ah, screw it.
Hur får jag tag i spelet i Sverige. Jag har inget kreditkort och tänkte undvika att skaffa ett ett tag till, går det att få det på faktura eller något liknande, eller är ni helt bundna vid den amerikanska distributionen?

And a translation:
Bork bork bork, borkbork bork. Bork bork borkbork.

Oh yeah, I guess PMs exist for a reason.. oh well.

[Silverlight]

Hey Johan, seeing how I'm in a country to the far north... ah, screw it.
Hur får jag tag i spelet i Sverige. Jag har inget kreditkort och tänkte undvika att skaffa ett ett tag till, går det att få det på faktura eller något liknande, eller är ni helt bundna vid den amerikanska distributionen?

And a translation:
Bork bork bork, borkbork bork. Bork bork borkbork.

Oh yeah, I guess PMs exist for a reason.. oh well.
Yeah, they do. You know, at least you can provide a faux translation that sounds plausible while you insult the dumb Americans. ;)

[wisefool]

Tom:

Sorry, I was mistaken about the readme. I've been browsing the Shrapnel forums and *thought* I remembered reading a post about the numbers being mentioned in the readme. No, I have no readme either.

[olaf]

I couldnt agree more about the documentation. This game is never going to appeal to a lot of gamers because of complexity. But, it could be a lot more appealing than it is now with better docs. Much, much better docs.

olaf

[MikeOberly]

The Void Gate rocks,really,although I'd have to agree that the lack of documentation is annoying.I was getting annihilated anytime I tried to enter the gate,but I've had luck with the Starspawn critters.There's a large WTF? factor with stuff like the Void Gate,Arena,etc,unless you spend some time hunting down FAQs.

[Johan O]

Anders,

bork, ett kostsamt alternativ hade varit att köpa spelet ifrån den finska spel butiken: Helsinki Dataclub OY, bork. Spelet kan också köpas på tuxgames, bork, men jag förmodar att även tuxgames, som är ett postorder företag för Linux spel, endast använder sig av kredit kort, men du kan ju se ifall de accepterar avi betalning. Bork.

Tom, Rywill

there have been a lot of complaints about the manual. The manual is in the state it is because shrapnel wanted a manual of fewer than 140p, and illwinter wanted it to include the the item and spell lists. It has become obvious that the most players would have prefered the first part of the manual to have been more extensive at the expense of the spell and item list. We also imagined that the manual in part could be replaced by the popup and the tips of the turns, most players do not seem to agree there either. Not that it is an excuse. but I guess this particular problem, as well as a few tohers, is to a large extent caused by the size of illwinter. The people that made the manual, and most of the beta testers that were asked opinions on it had been playing dom1/dom2 for 4+ years and might have taken much of the information other readers would have wanted of it for granted. I do not know how other companies make their manuals, but I assume they do not have their programmers and designers writing them, for those and other reasons. Anyway, glad you like it despite the flaws.

[Rywill]

Thanks for the response. The game absolutely rules, so the critique of the manual is mostly because I wish more people would play the game, but I know a certain number will be put off because it's only available online, and another group will never get past the learning curve. I want nothing but success for you guys so you can keep churning out products. This is one of the top three games I bought last year.

[Peter Frazier]

There's a few new maps at www.Illwinter.com. The ringworld map plays very well- You end up playing against two countries at a time and move from chokepoint to chokepoint.
Has anyone reached the stage of competency where they now look at their email games and shake their head at the clown who put them in the situation they're currently in? I have a pile of tips and questions to ask but I think they would reveal the desperate situations I'm currently having with my games.

[MikeOberly]

I'm right with you,Peter,but I don't mind taking my lumps while learning things about the game.I don't want to ask questions,either,for the same reason you mention!

[Rob O'Boston]

It is funny that the best resource I have to learn how to be better at the game is to discuss plans with the people I'm at war with. The fog of war in Dom2 is pretty darn thick, especially in Bruce's online game where he turned all the stat charts off. That's like playing in the dark with both of your eyes poked out to boot. I'd love to be able to stop everything, discuss strategies, and then get back at it. But, I'm enjoying the games too much to trash them now.

[Rywill]

I'm the same way, except that I'm happy to discuss tactics and stuff because it's, you know, just a computer game and all that. I mean, I won't tell Tom that last turn I moved my guys to attack his southern army--OR DID I???--but I like to talk shop in the sense of what battle plans people use, what spells are useful, how the game mechanics work, etc. Besides, I hope that Tom will think it's all an elaborate smokescreen or double-bluff and will be so paralyzed trying to figure out whether it's I know he knows I know, but does he know that I know that he knows that I know? or whatever that he'll just collapse into a sweaty, twitching heap and surrender.

I'd love to have those damn charts switched off. I think having them is totally lame.

[MikeOberly]

Here's a general question:how much importance do you guys put into the Construction school of magic-for that matter,how much effort do you put into research,period?It's kind of expensive to recruit research heavy mages at the expense of building armies.

I've a sinking feeling that I've neglected research in COnstruction in all my games,at any rate.

[Rywill]

It depends on who I'm playing. Some nations get pretty good mages, and I'll research quite a bit. Same if my pretender is a good mage. But others are more centered on priests, or troops, or whatever. For example, in Bruce's game, I'm playing Arco and my pretender doesn't have a ton of magic skill, so I'm not putting a lot of effort into research, preferring to use the cash on troops and priests and province defense.

As for construction, I am still just beginning to feel that part of the game out. I blew it off in my games against the AI until late in the game when I had research to spare. Researching it just for the item upgrades (i.e., when you don't have any earth mages) seems like a bit of a waste IMO, but I don't know enough to have a strong opinion. I always feel like between tying up your mages researching, tying up other mages forging items, using gems, and having to get your commanders to a lab to pick up the items, it's just a lot of effort without enough gain (most of my commanders don't fight, so the only items I give them are things that improve command rating or give a special ability like water breathing or something like that).

My question: what about searching? I hardly ever search, and I wonder if I'm being stupid. I'll do it if a commander is sitting still in a province anyway, but most of the time my problem is having too few commanders, not too many.

[MikeOberly]

My question: what about searching? I hardly ever search, and I wonder if I'm being stupid. I'll do it if a commander is sitting still in a province anyway, but most of the time my problem is having too few commanders, not too many.

I search all the time,but I'm not sure if it's good strategy or not.It can pay off with some nice gem/gold bonuses.It probably depends on if you're playing a mage rich race or not,along the lines of what you mention above.

[Rob O'Boston]

I've read on the shrapnel forums how the experienced players are always giving their leaders this weapon or that armor, so I try and kick in at least 2 levels so that I can get a broader range of magic items available. I wouldn't say the items have made much of a difference overall though.

One general question I have is whether people try and max out a school of magic, getting it to the highest level possible, or do they spread out the research between schools. I've done the latter, thinking that I'm giving my lesser wizards more spells to choose from. It sure would be nice to have access to some of the higher level spells once in a while.

Most valuable independant leader you can recruit: the sage. For 80 gold you get 8 research points.

[Rywill]

Does your school choice affect your mages? I thought it didn't. IOW, buying 9 Air for your pretender just gives your pretender 9 Air. If you're playing Man, your mages still get 2 Nature or whatever their default is, nothing else. The only other effect I thought it had was on blessed troops, who get bonuses if you have high levels in a school.

I have usually gone with one or two schools, usually matched to what my mages naturally get. I'd like to try a "rainbow" mage at some point, but haven't gotten around to it.

Sages definitely rock. If I find a library, I'll recruit a sage every few turns until I have a nice little research institution going.

[Peter Frazier]

I always go the rainbow mage path. He usually follows in the path of my conquests, kicking rocks over and finding gems. You can find some very good sites for hiring mages, let alone sites which offer a gold bonus. When he finds a lab, I usually empower him to help find more things. If I recall, anything over level 4 is a waste for finding sites. Finding fire and earth gems is especially good as they can be converted to gold if you're in a pinch. I've tried to use my pretenders in battle but all I end up with is an annoying time clicking on my priests to call him back when he dies a turn or two later.
Construction items are also great. With a mage with death 2, he can create the skulls which add 10 research points to your researchers. It costs 10 death gems but my rainbow mage has usually discovered a pile of death sites by the time I'm ready to build them.

[Johan O]

Does your school choice affect your mages? I thought it didn't. .
Check out p27 in the manual.

Branching out somewhat in magic research is probably better in most cases since the research cos is 20 40 60 100 160 (the cost increase is exponential converging on the golden mean, appr. 1.6). If you have specific spell required for some strategy you have deviced focused research might be better though.

[Tom Chick]

Now I'm confused. Again.

Johan, are you saying that the choice of magic for your pretender somehow affects the mages you recruit? Because Rywill is saying it doesn't, which was my understanding as well.

And as near as I can tell, the table on page 27 just shows a list of bonus applied to a mage or pretender who knows that particular school of magic.

-Tom

[Rywill]

Yeah, I thought the same as Tom. In other words:

Your pretender's magic skill affects only three things: the spells your pretender can cast, the path bonuses your PRETENDER gets, and the bonus that your blessed troops get. It confers no bonus on your recruited mages (neither extra magic paths nor stat boosts from p.27).

Your recruited mages get whatever magic skills they're supposed to have, as well as the bonuses on p.27 depending on their path. This stays the same no matter what magic skills your pretender has.

[Rob O'Boston]

I'm totally confused. I'm talking about the school as in construction, summoning, evoking, etc. Not fire, water, air, etc. I'm going to leave blood out of this because, well, you know.

My pretender usually has 2 or 3 'elements' (I can't remember the book's title for them). But then my research is spread out amongst the schools so that my leaders with 2 fire or air or whatever have more spells to choose from on the battlefield.

[Rywill]

Whoops, you're right. I'm confusing path (Air, Water, etc.) with school (Evocation, Thaumaturgy, etc.). For paths, I usually buy one or two and take them reasonably high (4-6). For schools, I usually spread out. It all depends on who I'm playing, though. E.g., if I have high nature, I might spend a lot of research on whatever the school is that gets you summoning, because they summon some cool stuff. But as a general matter, as Johan said, I'm usually better off spending 10 or 20 points to pick up level 1 or 2 or whatever, than spending 120 to get one more level in something I'm already good at. But it really depends. Whenever I finish research I always go look at the spell schools to figure out what I want to do next.

[olaf]

Hence the complaints about the docs. Carry on.

Regarding construction...I get a kick out of building items. Some of the artifacts really rock. Of course, I have yet to win a game so building items probably isnt that effective towards victory.

A couple of my favorites are:

The pocket lich, which puts a skull necromancer on your side during battles. Visions of Morte. There is one of these that summons a knight too, although the Lich seems better.

The one that lets you cast Call of the Wild gem free (spell that summons a werewolf and 20 wolves to attack the province of your choice...after the battle you get to keep them. They are all stealthy too.)

Nethgul/Green Eye. Intelligent items that defend your commander with spells, pretty good ones sometimes.

The one where you get a neverending supply of imps to protect you in exchange for your soul sounds cool, but I have never tried it.

olaf

[Quaro]

The imp one is insane. In a long battle, TONS of imps get generated. Also good for assassins.

[Johan O]

Now I'm confused. Again.

Johan, are you saying that the choice of magic for your pretender somehow affects the mages you recruit? Because Rywill is saying it doesn't, which was my understanding as well.

And as near as I can tell, the table on page 27 just shows a list of bonus applied to a mage or pretender who knows that particular school of magic.

-Tom
Sorry about that. No the path choice of your pretender doesn't affect your mages, bar potentional bless effects. I thought Rywill said that there was no additional effect from the magic on your pretender beyond what spells you could cast and what bless effects you could get. Sloppy reading. I also confused school with path.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

Has anyone reached the stage of competency where they now look at their email games and shake their head at the clown who put them in the situation they're currently in?
Eh-heh. No. In 2 of the 3 MP games I'm in, I've been the first one out, dead in just over 20 turns.

Guess I shoulda played some single-player before joining the game Johan O was in. Of course, the "normal" AI still kicks my ass, so maybe I just really, really suck.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

Oh yeah, one question from the lord of suck (ie, me)--if I "Horror Mark" some poor bastard, does this mean Horrors will naturally be attracted to him, ie, they'll appear and attack him randomly, or does it mean that WHEN a Horror is summonded, it'll charge at him first?

To ask the same question in a different fashion, can Horror Mark alone kill a unit, or do I need to summon a Horror too?