Saddam drugged and left to be collected?

[Uncle Larry]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&u=/afp/iraq_saddam_britain&printer=1

Regardless of wether or not it's true, isn't the *real* point that he's going to face trial? If the Kurds did indeed nab the bastard first then the worst thing to come about is our military loses a few cool points.

I'm sure if this is ever validated that the far-lefties (www.opednews.com/kall1203_saddam_drugged.htm) will spin this into more Bush = TEH BAD. The truth is (unless it's proven that Saddam was somehow hand-delivered to US forces by bin Laden himself) this will remain a political boon for the president, regardless of wether or not he personally deserves the kudos.

If he was indeed high when Task Force 121 rolled up then I'm satisfied he received the mother-of-all-buzzkills. They can keep that fucker pilled-up right until his trial starts for all I care, just so long as he's good and sober when they read the verdict.

[chet]

far-lefties will spin this into more Bush

There comes a point, where the contempt for eveyone outside of Bush's inner circle is going to bite him in the ass, and it is going to stick. How many articles have been posted here of the Bush team exaggerating a story for no gain, but yet they still do.

But nice little deflection for you, yes, questioning that the Bush administration lied about the capture is just wrong - ALL THAT COUNTS IS HE WAS CAPTURED!!! It is unAmerican to question about the capture!

Yay!!! Stupidity has won, Bush is a shoe in.

Chet

[Jason McCullough]

What is it with this war? You have to wait at least a week to be sure a story is accurate.

[Uncle Larry]

By all means, question it. And him! And vote against him too, the rat bastard! MY point is Saddam is in custody, a fact which hasn't gotten any less radical amid these reports. How he got there will likely be of significantly less political importance, wether or not you (or I!) like it.

But then again, you would't be Chet if you didn't stagger in swinging.

[chet]

I don't care how he was taken in, that isn't the point. The point is this administration's need to lie. They could come up with the cure for cancer, and that wouldn't be enough. They would say they did while standing on one leg the whole time.

And I think that betrays their true feeling for the American public, that we are all dolts, and as long as there is a good ending near election time, all is forgiven. Sadly they might be right, look at your post? You somehow can't even post the story without taking a jab at the left, as if it was their fault Bush had to lie, this is just a bizarre behavior I see repeated again and again.

Chet

[nutsak]

*cough cough* it isn't just your govt though - You do realise that America pretty much runs the western world. Just look at how Blair and Howard bowed before the might of Bush when this whole thing started.


(for those of you who don't know John Howard is Australias *leader* - apparently we voted for him - the guy is a knob.)

[Jakub]

I think if the Kurds got to Saddam first, we'd be identifying individual scraps of meat with DNA testing right now. I'm not joking either.

[JeffL]

OK - why is everyone so quick to believe this story? An "un-named source" is claiming evil America is spinning things to their advantage and American and British intel did nothing. These tribal fighters capture Saddam, one of their daughters was raped by Uday, entire villages of their people were gassed and killed and wiped off the face of the earth, and they release Saddam because he cut a deal with them to give them some "political advantage"??? And they left him to be captured - how was he going to carry out his end of the deal if they were going to leave him to be captured? Is there anyone who really thinks a Kurdish tribal fighter group is going to leave Saddam in one piece if they had him? Rather than turn him over to the Americans, for example, directly and get the $25 Million plus whatever deal they could cut with the Americans? Or take credit immediately to the whole world and show him?

It makes no sense at all - yet everyone is immediately jumping on this and immediately claiming that the military and intel folks etc. are lying? Even though there is apparently quite a few stories by folks such as Newsweek documenting how Saddam was tracked down and the details of the hunt?

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

These tribal fighters capture Saddam, one of their daughters was raped by Uday, entire villages of their people were gassed and killed and wiped off the face of the earth...
The woman who was raped was a member of the clan that betrayed him, while the kurds captured him. [/quote]

...and they release Saddam because he cut a deal with them to give them some "political advantage"??? And they left him to be captured - how was he going to carry out his end of the deal if they were going to leave him to be captured?
What do you mean, 'his end of the deal? I think the deal the Kurdish leader was negotiating was with the Americans; that's what would make sense, anyway.

Is there anyone who really thinks a Kurdish tribal fighter group is going to leave Saddam in one piece if they had him? Rather than turn him over to the Americans, for example, directly and get the $25 Million plus whatever deal they could cut with the Americans? Or take credit immediately to the whole world and show him?

It makes no sense at all...

Yes, all those middle-eastern savages are obviously not intelligent enough to think of political gain; they would obviously have killed Saddam, for savages such as they are ruled not by reason, but solely by their emotions. Besides, the only language they understand is force, and the Benevolent Occupation hasn't lasted long enough to civilize them.

What on earth would they gain by killing him themselves? Do you think they're stupid? They need all the American help they can get with regard to Turkey. When you want your own state, you really can't afford to think of vengeance first. They weren't 'tribal fighters', not according to the story, anyway.

Interestingly, the very first report I heard of his capture (on the radio) stated that he was captured by Kurds cooperating with American forces. Never could find any sources that backed it up, though. I'm not saying that this story is even likely true at this point, but I do find it interesting.

[JeffL]

Yes, all those middle-eastern savages are obviously not intelligent enough to think of political gain; they would obviously have killed Saddam, for savages such as they are ruled not by reason, but solely by their emotions. Besides, the only language they understand is force, and the Benevolent Occupation hasn't lasted long enough to civilize them.

What on earth would they gain by killing him themselves? Do you think they're stupid? They need all the American help they can get with regard to Turkey. When you want your own state, you really can't afford to think of vengeance first.

Interestingly, the very first report I heard of his capture (on the radio) stated that he was captured by Kurds cooperating with American forces. Never could find any sources that backed it up, though. I'm not saying that this story is even likely true at this point, but I do find it interesting.

Give me a break. My point was that I give them more credit that what's in the story. They capture a man who had tried to commit genocide on their people, who's sons have raped their daughters, and they allow him to cut a deal with them to release him for political gain? Tell me how that makes sense to you.

Just to then tip off others where they could catch him? And how does this make any sense? Why not immediately tell the Americans "We've got him in a cage - come and get him and be sure to bring the TV cameras and that $25 Million?"

[Squirrel Killer]

What is it with this war? You have to wait at least a week to be sure a story is accurate.

Isn't that true of every war? Wasn't the initial reporting on the Tet Offensive positive?

[Bullhajj]

Jeff brings up a good point. What sort of unnamed political gain is going to be worth more than the 25 M the American govt was offering. And why drug him and pop him in a spider hole? Just doesn't make sense.

[Erik Andersson]

Jeff brings up a good point. What sort of unnamed political gain is going to be worth more than the 25 M the American govt was offering. And why drug him and pop him in a spider hole? Just doesn't make sense.

I can think of at least one unnamed political gain which would be worth a lot more than 25M, and I don't see why it would be impossible that they actually got 25M + political gain. That they dropped him in a spider hole might have been a part of the deal. I don't know if the story is true, but I think it makes sense.

[Derek Meister]

Maybe Saddam was drugged after it was found out he was secretly that British Airways pilot who supposedly spotted Air Force One during the president's stealth trip to Iraq last week. But only after it was also found out that it was he who was the sailor on the USS Abraham Lincoln who insisted on putting up the "mission accomplished" sign that the Administration said they didn't have anything to do with. Oh, and he was also helped Jessica Lynch take down an entire batallion of Iraqi death squads while being raped and shot as well. ;)

[Lunch of Kong]

What is it with this war? You have to wait at least a week to be sure a story is accurate.

That's not too bad, actually. It used to be that you had to wait until the war was over to be sure that a story was accurate.

[Lunch of Kong]

Yes, all those middle-eastern savages are obviously not intelligent enough to think of political gain

I think you're wrong, Idar. I don't believe that Jeff is prejudiced towards Iraqi Kurds in the way that you insuniuate.

If anything, an Iraqi Kurd would be well aware of just how much political power $25 million in hard currency can buy.

I'm with Jeff on this one. There were no hard sources in that article, just rumours.

[Jason McCullough]

What is it with this war? You have to wait at least a week to be sure a story is accurate.

Isn't that true of every war? Wasn't the initial reporting on the Tet Offensive positive?

True, but that was back in the era when Richard Nixon mused about having Halderman assassinate journalists. That's changed, but I guess government reporting hasn't much.

[Bullhajj]

Jeff brings up a good point. What sort of unnamed political gain is going to be worth more than the 25 M the American govt was offering. And why drug him and pop him in a spider hole? Just doesn't make sense.

I can think of at least one unnamed political gain which would be worth a lot more than 25M, and I don't see why it would be impossible that they actually got 25M + political gain. That they dropped him in a spider hole might have been a part of the deal. I don't know if the story is true, but I think it makes sense.

I guess it has to remain the unnamed political gain since you don't see fit to name it. LOL.

Go ahead and paint the picture. What's the advantage to giving up Saddam and forfeiting the big bucks.

[Anaxagoras]

Maybe Saddam was drugged after it was found out he was secretly that British Airways pilot who supposedly spotted Air Force One during the president's stealth trip to Iraq last week. But only after it was also found out that it was he who was the sailor on the USS Abraham Lincoln who insisted on putting up the "mission accomplished" sign that the Administration said they didn't have anything to do with. Oh, and he was also helped Jessica Lynch take down an entire batallion of Iraqi death squads while being raped and shot as well. ;)

We are not amused by your disparagement of our Holy American Government, Derek. You see, the people in charge of our government now are kindler, gentler people who wouldn't do anything wrong. Take it back, or we'll "liberate" your country. (If you're already American, then we'll declare your part of America a rogue state, and "liberate" it anyways.)

[chet]

Does it make sense?

No.

Did lying about the pilot report when bush flew in for thanksgiving make sense? No.

If this administration had no history of this, fine. I would doubt this story. But with this administration, I tend to believe anyone but.

And this isn't in a heat of the moment, misreported story. If this proves true, this was an orchestrated lie by the administration. Not some reporter thinking some coffee cans are WMDs.

Chet

[Anaxagoras]

Dittos, Chet. Mega-dittos.

Actually, despite the Limbaugh reference, I do think Chet's arguments make a lot of sense. The important point is the continual contempt of the Bush administration for the common citizenry. Of course, the common citizenry is buying his bullshit hook, line, and sinker, so maybe the contempt isn't misplaced.....

[Erik Andersson]

I guess it has to remain the unnamed political gain since you don't see fit to name it. LOL.

Go ahead and paint the picture. What's the advantage to giving up Saddam and forfeiting the big bucks.

It can remain unnamed because I thought it would be pretty obvious what Kurdish people in Iraq would be looking for - American support for an independent Kurdish state. That goal is probably worth a lot more than 25M to a lot of people. And how do you know that they forfeited the big bucks? Maybe they got both, assuming that the story is true.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Give me a break. My point was that I give them more credit that what's in the story. They capture a man who had tried to commit genocide on their people, who's sons have raped their daughters, and they allow him to cut a deal with them to release him for political gain? Tell me how that makes sense to you.
Again, I interpret the article as saying that they cut the deal with the US, not with Saddam Hussein. I really see no reason for interpreting the article differently, it's what would make sense.

Just to then tip off others where they could catch him? And how does this make any sense? Why not immediately tell the Americans "We've got him in a cage - come and get him and be sure to bring the TV cameras and that $25 Million?"

The Kurds don't want $25 million and international cred, they want their own state and protection from Turkey. $25m and televised coverage of their capture of Saddam doesn't get them anywhere closer to that goal, but a deal with the US might.

Sorry if I seemed to attribute sentiments to you that you didn't profess, but I really would have thought it obvious that a bargaining chip like Saddam Hussein is worth a hell of a lot more to a serious political organization than money and petty revenge.

[Mark Asher]

By all means, question it. And him! And vote against him too, the rat bastard! MY point is Saddam is in custody, a fact which hasn't gotten any less radical amid these reports. How he got there will likely be of significantly less political importance, wether or not you (or I!) like it.

But then again, you would't be Chet if you didn't stagger in swinging.

Thing is, we'd like our leaders to tell us the truth about these things. That's the issue. Would it be so hard to tell us that the Kurds had him first and gave him to us, or whatever that story was? That wouldn't be any less significant, would it? Don't you dislike it when our leaders make up shit?

[bago]

If you are trying to capture and hold a prisoner and deliver him alive to an army, why would you give him a gun?

[Bullhajj]

And how do you know that they forfeited the big bucks?

There were reports shortly after Saddam surfaced that said nobody got the reward. But, hey, maybe that's all a lie, too.

[Woolen Horde]

And how do you know that they forfeited the big bucks?

There were reports shortly after Saddam surfaced that said nobody got the reward. But, hey, maybe that's all a lie, too.

I thought you guys had heard? Apparently, it was Halliburton who found Saddam.

[JeffL]

If there truly was some big manufactured lie about how all of this went down, I'll be as pissed as anyone. It just seems like an odd story. And when paired with other news reports from new magazines and agencies about how they tracked him down, it seems like a very thinly sourced story.

[Jason McCullough]

TPM says it's probably hooey. Lots of odd stuff.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_12_21.html#002340

[Uncle Larry]

Imagine that story circling around Iraq. True or not, that's the only way it would've been any trouble for Bush (who I wasn't trying to defend above, and the jab at the far-left was a bonus!) would be if the image of Saddam's "surrendering" was replaced with a more sympathetic one. It's not all hugs and rainbows at the moment, but there has been only one KIA since his capture last I heard. News that Saddam was drugged would have the exact opposite effect of what our psyops guys are trying to accomplish.

It's still a worthwhile discussion.

The details fo the capture - as they've been reported so far - were far from sweeping drama, and if this story had any truth to it, I really don't think it would have much of an impact over here. The administration has its prize. As far as the administration LYING to us: Once again, if the story was true and it was intentionally left out is it not reasonable to assume it was done so for the reasons I mentioned above? Neither Bush nor any of his cronies were gloating stateside when they mentioned his capture, and none of the details they gave seem incongruent with the "drugged" story, besides not mentioning it. In this regard nothing related to the public by the administration would be untrue, so I guess the question is: Does anything less than full disclosure automatically rise to the level of a lie?

All that aside, there is no other logical reason why they wouldn't just go ahead and disclose it if it was true. I hardly think the sticking point in the "600 armed troops vs a hobo" title fight was the fact that the hobo was tweaked out on vicadin.

[JeffL]

Thanks for that link, Jason; I'd seen some commentary here and there discounting the report, but that is the best summary I've seen.

Heck, if Iraqi's HAD captured Saddam, I would think that we'd get more good PR from that than we would from our Spec Op folks grabbing him. That would be a much better PR story: see, the Iraqi's are taking control, etc.

[Derek Meister]

It's not all hugs and rainbows at the moment, but there has been only one KIA since his capture last I heard.

It was two 1st Armored Division soldiers and an Iraqi translater who died and two others seriously wounded in the blast that struck an Army convoy on Monday. No suspects were found, alas.