OPEC wants aid if world shifts to renewable resources

[Jakub]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/12/climate.kyoto.reut/index.html

WTFH. Maybe they'd deserve it if they weren't charging the world 4x fair market value and 8x cost for oil, not to mention funding terrorists and muslim extremists.

Anyway, isn't it their responsibility to prepare for the future? Invest in themselves somehow? I fail to see how this is the rest of the world's problem.

Most European countries have no worthwhile resources left, certainly they're not able to compete on the world market with what they have. Well, there's the coal in the Saar basin and Carpathia, but coal demand seems to have slacked off just a touch since the early 20th century, not to mention that more plentiful and cheaper sources have long since been found and developed.

[XPav]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/12/climate.kyoto.reut/index.html

WTFH. Maybe they'd deserve it if they weren't charging the world 4x fair market value and 8x cost for oil, not to mention funding terrorists and muslim extremists.

Keep in mind that Venezuela is a member of OPEC. So not all the countries fund muslim extremists. Just most of them.

Anyway, isn't it their responsibility to prepare for the future? Invest in themselves somehow? I fail to see how this is the rest of the world's problem.

OPEC: "Well... uh... if you don't give us tons of money, all of us leaders of Arab countries will be lined up against the wall by commies and shot and then everyone will get mad and invade your countries. So give us money! Or else! We'll all die!"

:roll:

[Midnight Son]

Fuck 'em.

[Peter Frazier]

Hell, I want to see renewable resources developed just to be able to tell them to piss off back to the desert.

[Linoleum]

Lack of long-term capital investment and planning, it's not just for modern Western capitalism anymore!

[Jakub]

Lack of long-term capital investment and planning, it's not just for modern Western capitalism anymore!
I didn't realize this was the Chinese Year of the Inaccurate Blanket Statement.

[Linoleum]

Lack of long-term capital investment and planning, it's not just for modern Western capitalism anymore!
I didn't realize this was the Chinese Year of the Inaccurate Blanket Statement.

Oh c'mon, in this corner we have Western society unwilling to make an earlier transition from dependence on fossil fuels than is absolutely necessary....in the other corner we have countries with decades of gushing capital inflows who will be high and dry when their primary resource runs out?

Gross simplification sure, but they wouldn't have this problem if they listened to Mr Rodgers!

And I haven't had my soda yet this morning.

[Jakub]

Well, western society is moving forward, despite the massive investment the oil industry has made into delaying that move as long as possible. The oil industry can lobby politicians to put off any moves to cut down on oil use, but it can't prevent individuals and companies from developing new methods of energy harvesting.

Not to mention my original point is that non-OPEC countries and individual oil-producing states in those countries (like the province of Alberta in Canada, or Texas) have diversified industries that won't let a change in any specific market ruin their economic prospects.

[Jason McCullough]

Why should western society transition off oil? As long as its cheap, might as well use it. If you include global warming in the price its probably not cheap anymore, but no one does that, so there you go.

[XPav]

Why should western society transition off oil? As long as its cheap, might as well use it. If you include global warming in the price its probably not cheap anymore, but no one does that, so there you go.
Probably because the oil dependency of the US forces us to do things that are desirable. Take away the oil dependency and reduce the money flowing to the mideast, and you end up with less money for terrorists and missiles and nuclear weapons and all those things in the Middle East that make the world a bad place.

[Jason McCullough]

Sure, but when was the last time you heard someone other than Communist Like Me make that argument? It's giving in to the terrorists!

[Midnight Son]

Why should western society transition off oil? As long as its cheap, might as well use it. If you include global warming in the price its probably not cheap anymore, but no one does that, so there you go.

Uh, because Momma Nature ain't making no more of it? As it inevitably becomes more scarce over the next 50 years the price will skyrocket and folks will be whining "why don't we have alternatives?" Why, because it so easy to sit on yer ass and do nothing!

[Jason McCullough]

So? Why not use up all the cheap stuff first? It makes perfect economic sense to use all of your $20/barrel fuel before you switch to the $30/barrel stuff.

[Midnight Son]

What I'm talking about is walking while chewing gum, Jason. Use up the cheap stuff while working feverishly on alternatives.

[Jason McCullough]

But, that's what we're doing!

[Midnight Son]

Too bad the camel jockeys have most of it.....

[Jakub]

Why should western society transition off oil? As long as its cheap, might as well use it. If you include global warming in the price its probably not cheap anymore, but no one does that, so there you go.
Well, it'll run out sooner or later. I'm sure we'll use it for all it's worth in the meantime, but politically, financially and ecologically it's an unsustainable way of going about matters.

The problem is that the West is looking towards the future, while the OPEC nations seem unwilling to prepare for it. Europe, Japan and Korea are proof that you can have not one resource worth exporting and yet still maintain a strong economy.

Given their incomes and the gold mine they're sitting on, the OPEC nations are far better equipped to transition to new industries than the countries of South America, Africa or Asia, yet they're unwilling to diversify. Imagine the solar power and wind power they could harness, or build industries that import resources from other nations and then export those products out. Unlike so many 3rd world nations, they have the capital to do all this.

What OPEC is proposing is something akin to the aristocrats of the 19th century demanding tax money from their government to maintain their fortunes, rather than investing in industry.

[Jason McCullough]

Yeah. I remember reading somewhere that finding oil is statistically the worst thing that can happen to a country - something about the economics ends up turning the country into a shithole.

[JeffL]

Right now a gallon of gasoline in the U.S. costs less than a gallon of bottled water. Oil is still cheap, in spite of all of the dire predictions of how long it will last (those predictions have been wrong for the last 100 years.) And there are still a lot of untapped sources that would be tapped if neccessary.

I would love nothing more than to tell countries like Saudi Arabia to eat their oil, that we don't want it any more. And most large companies have significant R&D programs to figure out ways to move to renewable resources (it's a LOT more complex and difficult in practice than it is on paper.) People don't realize that just about everything around them, beyond just heating and cars, is oil based (including most of the parts of the computer you're reading this on.)

What I see is a very gradual change - e.g. there are already some new materials on the market that are plastics based on fermentation products of corn that would normally be made from traditional oil base. The problem is that they've found NOBODY is willing to pay literally a penny more for "green" packaging and other applications of these materials.

[graller]

Yeah. I remember reading somewhere that finding oil is statistically the worst thing that can happen to a country - something about the economics ends up turning the country into a shithole.

Not quite accurate. You would be shocked to read a history of the oil industry. I just read "The Prize" a history of the oil industry that won the Pulitzer Prize. Was published in 1992 so it is a little out of date with regard to current events. But the scary thing is the American boom that fueled our becoming a superpower was completely based on us being the OPEC of the oil industry from 1860 when it was discovered in Pennsylvania until the fields in Texas were finally surpassed by OPEC in Arabia in the 50's. During that time we were the dominant producer in the industry. In fact from 1860 till 1890 we were the only significant producer until the fields in Baku and Romania were developer after 1900. Modern banking, finance, stocks, integrated industries were all driven by big Oil. Citibank was Rockefeller's personal bank.

[Jason McCullough]

I should have said "with the exception of the US, for whatever reason." But it's amazing; Russia is probably the "best developed" on the list of oil exporters, or maybe Brazil.

[Jakub]

I should have said "with the exception of the US, for whatever reason." But it's amazing; Russia is probably the "best developed" on the list of oil exporters, or maybe Brazil.
Yeah, because Norway is so backward :)

[Jakub]

Actually, what were the uses for oil before cracking and refining came about? We didn't have gasoline, diesel or oil-fired engines until the late 1880s at least, and they certainly didn't become popular until the 20th century.

[Lum]

The idea is kind of faintly ridiculous, especially since Arab nations with some small amount of foresight (such as Qatar and Bahrain) are already creating information and financial industries to keep the money spigot going when the oil runs out.

[graller]

Jakub - It was turned into Kerosene - the first safe? lighting oil for illuminating the inside of homes.

[Anaxagoras]

I think the high correlation between oil-based economy and fucked-up country is a coincidence, not causation. After all, besides the US, the oil producing countries are Venezuela (already in a state of near anarchy before oil was discovered) and the Middle Eastern nations, who have very limited experience with either democracy or long term financial planning. I'm guessing that if France or Germany suddenly found oil, they wouldn't go to hell. It's just a guess, but it seems reasonable.

[Jason McCullough]

Well, that's kind of what I meant: it's effect on undeveloped countries. The various Asian tigers, by contrast, got rich on just exports.