Lost on RPTVs

[DTG]

Several of you seem to know your way around this big-screen, HDTV stuff, and all the other sites seem to be a massive jumble of random discussions on the topic that don't help unless you already know the answer, or want justification for something you already bought so I'll ask it here.....

Looking for a ~55" rear projection TV. I have DirectTV. I have a sub-$100 progressive scan DVD player. I have no intention of spending many hundreds of $ to upgrade to HD satellite equipment, and paying the extra monthly $ for HD right now. So.... I'm looking at a big TV that gives decent performance on regular DirectTV, and really good DVD performance, and I might upgrade to HDTV down the road.

So I shop around. All the stores have TVs connected to HD satellite feeds. The first 2 say they can't show me a normal satellite broadcast. The 3rd store says sure, switches to normal DirectTV, and......it looks like dog poop. Like a watercolor in the rain. The TVs stretch the 4:3 picture to fit the 16:9 shape, and it shows. I would not pay $50 for that picture, let alone $2000. Every TV is the same. The sales guy, bless his heart, says yeah..the picture sucks if what you watch 85% of the time is normal satellite TV. Because every single major manufacturer says don't use the vertical bars for 4:3 TV more than 15% of the time you watch, otherwise you'll get burn-in. So you have to watch this circus fun-house mirror stretchy version of normal TV. Some of you here say don't worry about burn-in, and while I trust you are all nice folks who aren't out to screw strangers, I would like to see SOMETHING from a trustworthy technical source or from a manufacturer that says that.

So, am I right in saying that these TVs only make sense if you only watch DVDs, if you subscribe to HDTV (or get it over the air), and if you're willing to watch a crap picture when watching normal TV?

Sorry the long post. I guess I wasn't expecting modern satellite TV to look so ...well...1970's on these $2000 TVs. I knew they would not be HDTV quality, but the sheer awfulness of 85% of TV out there on these tubes just shocked me. Thanks.

[Bub, Andrew]

This is why, if I was looking for a new TV right now, I'd just go for a big flat screen WEGA thing. It's too early for Plasma or Projection, imo.

[gnmarsh]

Have you considered the new tv\dish combo deals? Dish tv has one for 1000 dollars, hdtv with the television\receiver and full install. Best buy has one for 1500 with a 51 inch tv. For HDtv you would need a different dish than the one your currently using for directtv so this is actually a prettty good deal.

That being said I have a mistubishi that I watch directtv on without hdtv and it looks really good. Far better than it used to look on a toshiba that it replaced. It would be around 600 dollars for me to upgrade to an hdtv receiver, which is why these combos are a good way to go. Even the best buy one, your in essence paying the 600 for the receiver/ dish and 900 for a 51 inch hdtv.

[Kevin Grey]

DTG, I have a 55" Diamond Mits w/ an integrated HDTV tuner and I also have a HDTV DirecTV receiver. If you are primarily going to be watching normal DirecTV then you will likely get a picture similar to what you saw in the store- fairly crappy. This really can't be avoided because a large screen TV will magnify every picture defect and regular cable and DirecTV don't have the signal strength to overcome it.

If the distorted picture bothered you have the salesman show all of the aspect ratio options the particular model has. I watch TV in a modified stretched format- the middle part of the picture, where most of the action typically occurs, will be normal and the stretching occurs on the edges of the picture. This usually works fine but will noticeably distort any text crawls (think CNN) moving across the bottom of the screen. You can also opt for a zoomed picture that will remove the distortion but crop the tops and bottoms of the frames.

You will likely get used to the crappy picture in the long run. I'm a picture quality whore and I don't have much of a problem with it although I watch very little regular TV. My wife, who watches a lot more TV than me, isn't bothered at all by it. I constantly have to hound her for not switching over to the HD feed when available.

DVDs should be absolutely gorgeous, particularly with the progressive scan DVD player.

Whether the trade off is worth it will likely depend on your ratio of regular TV to DVD viewing.

This situation likely won't change for quite a while- TV manufacturers will have to start using better scalers for converting the 480i image to 1080i but these are very expensive. External scalers that do a good job of this can be had now but can run up to $1000. Cable and DirecTV will continue to offer more and more HD content but it will be a long time before they will offer the majority of their programming in HD. Bandwith is huge and DirecTV is already running up against the limit with their three sattelites. Cable's bandwith isn't much better right now.

[Kyle Wilson]

If you're still going to be watching a lot of 4x3 non-HD television, you should look at DLP and LCD projection sets. They're more expensive, brighter and prettier than CRT RPTVs. They aren't subject to burn-in.

I don't think stretching the image across a widescreen is ever something I'd want to do.

[Alan Dunkin]

I'm not sure if you'll really have to worry about burn-in much... but what do I know? :)


Some of you here say don't worry about burn-in, and while I trust you are all nice folks who aren't out to screw strangers, I would like to see SOMETHING from a trustworthy technical source or from a manufacturer that says that.

Why would I have to do that? I would think that you should find something that says it does happen with X results rather than us trying to prove it doesn't happen.

As for up-resolution conversion, I saw this in Wired: Samsung DVD-HD931, $349, converts 480 to 720p and 1080i.

Grand Wega, that's the way to go. Holy crap, I saw a 42" at Best Buy for $2799 and nearly bought one right then and there.

--- Alan

[Case]

Some of you here say don't worry about burn-in, and while I trust you are all nice folks who aren't out to screw strangers, I would like to see SOMETHING from a trustworthy technical source or from a manufacturer that says that.



I am that source. I write about this stuff for a living.

DLP and LCD rear projection TVs are NOT susceptible to burn-in. CRTs are, and if you watch a lot of those channels that have little visual bugs at the bottom (CNN, MSNBC, etc.), you'll be seeing them on all channels, after some time, if you have a CRT-based TV.

Plasma TVs are also susceptible to burn-in.

You can set all RPTVs that I have seen to view 4:3 material in 4:3 mode and widescreen stuff in widescreen mode. So you don't have to watch those crazy stretched images. Most people with CRT RPTVs don't do this, because of the burn in problem.

[DTG]

...DLP and LCD rear projection TVs are NOT susceptible to burn-in. CRTs are, and if you watch a lot of those channels that have little visual bugs at the bottom (CNN, MSNBC, etc.), you'll be seeing them on all channels, after some time, if you have a CRT-based TV.

Plasma TVs are also susceptible to burn-in.

You can set all RPTVs that I have seen to view 4:3 material in 4:3 mode and widescreen stuff in widescreen mode. So you don't have to watch those crazy stretched images. Most people with CRT RPTVs don't do this, because of the burn in problem.

Thank you. Sounds like I'll have to wait, then for either the TVs or the programming to catch up to each other. I really don't want to spend big $ for anything less than 55" right now, and the DLP and LCD setups are either nonexistant at that size or out of my price range. I want the big screen for the DVD "movie experience" and whatever 16:9 format programs are out there, but at least half of my family viewing is still 4:3. I appreciate the input.


..Why would I have to do that? I would think that you should find something that says it does happen with X results rather than us trying to prove it doesn't happen. .

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be insulting...I was just asking if anyone knew of something other than personal, anecdotal evidence that burn-in wasn't a real issue w/ RPTVs. Sounds as if it is, if you frequently watch 4:3.

[Ergo]

You can minimize burn-in on CRT televisions by greatly reducing the contrast. What I do is watch 4x3 TV in "zoomed" mode, rather than stretch mode. Some info gets cut off at the top and bottom of the picture, but generally it works fine.

[DTG]

Could this be the solution to my need for a 55" 16:9 screen without the burn-in worries of watching 4:3?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/17/technology/17chip.html

(requires free sign up). Or:


...At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, which opens on Jan. 8, Intel is expected to disclose the development of a class of advanced semiconductors that technologists and analysts say will improve the quality of large-screen digital televisions and substantially lower their price, according to industry executives close to the company.

Intel's ability to integrate display, television receiver and computer electronics on a single piece of silicon is likely to open new markets for a class of products - including plasma, projection and L.C.D. TV's - that now sell for $3,000 to $10,000.

...He predicted that the low-cost display technology, which can be incorporated into the traditional rear-projection television sets, could lead to lightweight 50-inch screens only 7 inches thick for about $1,000, perhaps as early as the 2004 holiday season

...The technology Intel has been exploring is known as liquid crystal on silicon. It is one of a number of competing technologies, including a novel approach pioneered by Texas Instruments called digital light processors, or D.L.P.

The Texas Instruments approach involves a silicon chip that has hundreds of thousands of microscopic mirrors that can tilt to reflect light. So far, it has been limited to relatively expensive digital TV's.

By contrast, the technology used by Intel employs vast arrays of tiny electronic shutters that can alter the amount of reflected light, an approach that may allow companies to make big-screen TV sets using rear-projection technology that matches or exceeds the quality of flat-panel TV's at a much lower cost than plasma and conventional L.C.D.

Although Intel is not expected to enter the market for digital televisions for at least a year, Philips Electronics, the Dutch manufacturer, and several American start-up companies have already begun offering liquid crystal on silicon, or LCoS, components and televisions.