Windows 8 Exclusivity?

[Telefrog]

Shouldn't be surprising, right?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/12/no-7-samurai-skulls-of-the-shogun-goes-win-8-only/



We are launching on Windows 8, Windows Phone and XBLA around the Windows 8 release,” confirmed Borut. “So no, that won’t include a Windows 7 version.” But… why?

“Working with MS, we were all really excited about the cross-platform nature of the game (it’s a great fit for mouse, touch, and gamepad, which is rare). We had a choice to support either Windows 8 or GFWL on Windows 7"

I assume MS published versions of games will be Win 8 exclusive going foward. I'm not sure why I didn't think about it until just now.

[Razgon]

hah! oh well , there's some games I don't have to worry about then.

[KevinC]

Yea, less games I have to consider buying. It's not like MS has been a big presence in the PC gaming space for years, anyway.

[stusser]

You've got to feel bad for those developers. They're obviously being forced to do this to their detriment, and they're obviously not happy about it.

[TurinTur]

Reading the two RPS articles, it seems clear the developer gave priority to console distribution than distribution in pc, so that's why they signed with MS, even if they would restrict greatly the computer version, as in exchange they would enter in XBLA.

[Telefrog]

They were given a choice. Win 7 with GFWL or Win 8 app store. I'm not sure that's a great choice, but it's not unexpected when dealing with MS publishing.

[ibdoomed]

Yea, less games I have to consider buying. It's not like MS has been a big presence in the PC gaming space for years, anyway.

Exactly.

Edit: I guess I should note that I'm on windows 8, I just don't agree with the BS MS is pulling.

[LMN8R]

Just like Halo 2 Vista exclusivity, this is a stupid move, and undermines Microsoft's credibility with gamers and certainly won't enamor them to anyone.

however

this is still better than the current situation with XBLA games published by Microsoft. Right now, it's XBLA-only for <x> number of month until the developer is allowed to bring it to PC. In this case, they're saying Microsoft-published XBLA games at least have *some* limited avenue to come to PC in *some* way.


Still fucking stupid, but oh well I guess? The smarter developers and publishers will still bring their games to all platforms simultaneously and end up making more money from it too.

[Teiman]

OpenGL, OpenAL, C compilers, C++ compilers.

Writting code that run on any OS is not easy, but is not magic either.

DirectX was designed mostly to kill multiplatform libraries like OpenGL, to make game devs addict to windows game developing.

Now that Microsoft has consoles, all his efforts are to stop game devs from developing for the PC, and make then make "exclusive" content for the XBox.

A "Exclusive XBox" game is a game that first run on a PC, but then is released for the XBox so can't be played on the PC.

This is the world that Microsoft has created. A world that is sadistic against the PC.

Windows 8 exclusive games is only another nail stabbed on the eye of PC gamers.

[Armando Penblade]

God, I remember the Halo 2/Vista debacle. Wait, do you REALLY mean to tell me that a dated-looking, low-tech game that runs perfectly well on a system that is the same age as WinXP (almost to the month) that has almost no RAM and a crap graphics card CAN'T run on a WinXP system with components leagues ahead of console-land--but a PC with quantifiably worse specs running Vista (poorly) is okay?

Sure thing, MS. I think I'd rather play a different game than Halo 2. It's called "hide and go fuck yourself."

Sucks for these Shogun devs; they've just written off the hardcore population for years to come on their neat-looking little game, but it was their bad decision to go along with Microsoft's vile practice.

[Giaddon]

Well, they're really aiming where the money is: the handhelds and tablets.

[ibdoomed]

Well, they're really aiming where the money is: the handhelds and tablets.

Really? Everyone I know has a computer or multiple, including my 96 year old grandmother. I don't know a single person with a handheld game system (psp or gameboy 3 or whatever else they make these days).

[Mark Asher]

Why is GFWL a necessity for Win 7? Because that's the only way to be able to sell the game? Why can't they sell it through Steam and make it work on Vista, Win7, etc.?

[Razgon]

Really? Everyone I know has a computer or multiple, including my 96 year old grandmother. I don't know a single person with a handheld game system (psp or gameboy 3 or whatever else they make these days).

Tablets on the other hand, and smartphones are really, really gaining ground.

In denmark it was recently surveyed that 46 percent of all cellphones in Denmark were smartphones. Interestingly enough, Android dominates the market, with Apple coming in second and Sony in a distant third.

Hell - An entire eh...Kommune (Small state, I guess it would translate to roughly) has decided to scrap all IT equipment and supply every student and state emplyoee in the area with an Ipad...yes, for free... EVERYONE gets one.

[Telefrog]

Plus, the tablet/phone/portable computing model with a closed app store is a huge draw for maximizing customer capture.

[rezaf]

Sometimes I think there's a special department at Microsoft with the sole goal of annoying their customers.

How else can you explain GfWL?
Or the Ribbon interface and/or it's lack of backwards compatibility?
Why does Win7 put softlinks to the directories used in previous windows versions, but you cannot actually follow these links in the explorer, getting an access denied message instead?
Why does Outlook lock out most file extensions these days with no (reasonable) way to opt out?
Win8 exclusive games?
The METRO interface as a core component as opposed to a convenience feature for actual tablet owners?

The list goes on and on - I'm sure there actually IS such department at Microsoft. :p
_____
rezaf

[Dan_Theman]

That's an interesting point, and you may be onto something (and I only partially kid). If indeed the choice was "Windows 7 and GfWL" or "Windows 8 app store," that means GfWL was being used essentially as a threat. They used their own crappy product as a threat to make a dev use Windows 8. That just boggles my mind.

[Fugitive]

Why is GFWL a necessity for Win 7? Because that's the only way to be able to sell the game? Why can't they sell it through Steam and make it work on Vista, Win7, etc.?

It sounds like it's a contractual issue, not a technical one, and if they'd decided to do a non-delayed Steam version, MS's response would have been "Well gee, too bad, your game could have been great on XBLA but if that's your choice..."

[Mark Asher]

That's what I was wondering. So it's possible that MS is saying if you want to be on XBLA then your choice of a PC version has to be either a rock or a hard place. It may be smart for MS but it certainly shows they aren't really interested in promoting gaming on Windows beyond lip service. Sad.

[beloved one]

Um, I read it to be primarily technical -- Win8 has one architecture and GFWL has another. If you want to make an XBLA game you could port it to either of these architectures, but not both at the same time.

They said they are a little company that doesn't have infinite resources. They said they picked win 8 because it was easier to port to from C# than going to GFWL, which would have required them to rewrite everything in C++.

I kinda chuckled when I read:


so we hope players will give us the benefit of the doubt where possible (or at least perhaps folks can kindly delay the angry/depressing forum posts until we’re out of crunching for ship.

Having linked to the article via this thread, which could be described as a series of angry/depressing forum posts.

[Fugitive]

They said they are a little company that doesn't have infinite resources. They said they picked win 8 because it was easier to port to from C# than going to GFWL, which would have required them to rewrite everything in C++.


The contractual part is in the implied demand that they must use GFWL to begin with if they wanted to do any kind of PC port at all, and that no other option was acceptable. It's just speculation though, since they're not going to come right out and say "Yeah, we were strongarmed into it," and there have been other non-GFWL XBLA ports, so it would be a shift in policy from MS if so.

[LMN8R]

I'm completely dumbfounded as to why indie developers think it's a good idea to sign deals like this with Microsoft in the first place. XBLA games aren't exactly selling that great anymore outside of a few massive hits, and it seems like self-publishing with the chance to get on Steam, indie bundles, and other avenues will lead to far higher success in both the short and long term.

[Papageno]

Aaargh, I know Microsoft likes money, but I feel like Windows 7 is just hitting its stride and I like it. Why can't we have another 10 year reign of an OS as we did with XP?

[beloved one]

The contractual part is in the implied demand that they must use GFWL to begin with if they wanted to do any kind of PC port at all, and that no other option was acceptable. It's just speculation though, since they're not going to come right out and say "Yeah, we were strongarmed into it," and there have been other non-GFWL XBLA ports, so it would be a shift in policy from MS if so.

Seems like Microsoft bought them or invested in them or is acting like a publisher for their game... And this thread has a lot more outrage than you'd normally regarding a game being exclusive to one console or platform.

I thought people are fairly understanding that completely recoding something for another platform can incur a lot of costs, so if you are partnering up with a bigger company, this is something they tend to weigh in on.

I've looked at metro from a programming perspective, and microsoft has done a lot to try to minimize the costs of porting between windows 8, windows phone and XBLA. Smartphones and facebook have taught them that having lots of inexpensive games really drives platform adoption. I really see them as having turned over a new leaf -- whereas before they negatively considered non-XBOX games to be a minor component of the success of windows overall, and instead a threat to XBOX... now I think they are trying to pull everything together into one big inter-operable ecosystem.

[rei]

Windows Phone 7 exclusive titles can't be making their developers much money.

[Mark Asher]

I really see them as having turned over a new leaf -- whereas before they negatively considered non-XBOX games to be a minor component of the success of windows overall, and instead a threat to XBOX... now I think they are trying to pull everything together into one big inter-operable ecosystem.

So shouldn't Microsoft be encouraging developers to make versions for Vista, Win 7, Win 8, GFWL, XBLA, etc.?

Maybe I misread, but it sounded like Microsoft gave them an option. You want to be on XBLA and Windows both, then you pick either GFWL or Win 8.

[beloved one]

So shouldn't Microsoft be encouraging developers to make versions for Vista, Win 7, Win 8, GFWL, XBLA, etc.?

Maybe I misread, but it sounded like Microsoft gave them an option. You want to be on XBLA and Windows both, then you pick either GFWL or Win 8.

Well, why stop at that list? Why not question why they don't encourage them to support Xune, XP, Windows Server 2000, WinME, pre-metro windows phone, Windows for Workgroups, MS-DOS, etc?

I see it being the the same answer that applies to the question: "Why doesn't every developer release every game on every platform?" It costs time and money to port. The time and money is very dependent on platform compatibility. Despite platforms being released by the same company, they can be difficult to port between them.

Even though Windows 8 is backwards compatible with existing Windows 7 programs, there is a metro style of development available on it that does not easily port backwards. There may be time, money and drive to get behind porting to either the Windows 7 format or the metro format, but not for both.

If you have a game that is not primarily developed for mouse and keyboard, I can see why you might want better compatibility with phones and tablets. Furthermore, this little company sounds like they have a chance of releasing a well-advertised launch title for a massive new platform roll-out. Doesn't that sound better than being the latest developer to struggle releasing a game leashed to the long-hated GFWL experience?

Anyway, I take them at their word that time and money are big concerns for them as a small developer, and that this deal made sense for them. In an ideal world, this game would also release for the ps3, the wii, android phones and tablets, iphones, ipads, gameboy, playstation mobile, macs, *nix, and yes, Windows 7, but I've made peace with that not being the case.

[rossm]

Why would I ever buy something from a windows 8 store, a la apple's store thing? Fuck them.

[Mark Asher]

Well, why stop at that list? Why not question why they don't encourage them to support Xune, XP, Windows Server 2000, WinME, pre-metro windows phone, Windows for Workgroups, MS-DOS, etc?



Maybe because nearly everything you listed doesn't make any sense, while both Vista and Windows 7 do make sense.

If Microsoft wants to support gaming on the PC, why put up hurdles? Give developers the green light to be on XBLA and also any other Windows platform they want to develop for?

Anyway, since we don't know the details we can't really argue too much. Maybe it is a matter of the developer choosing ONLY to be on Win 8 due to development costs. If that's the case then there is little to debate other than the wisdom of that decision.

If it's Microsoft forcing that, then we can have a debate. We don't really know that though.

[beloved one]

It is too early to say for sure, and the cynical view of microsoft the ruiner may be true.

I also feel I should disclose I am a dirty Windows 8 preview user, and tentatively looking forward to buying a win8 iconia tablet I saw in a demo video... so may be exhibiting some sort of locked in fanboy bias.

I just don't see this being the same as the cheap DirectX changes and Vista exclusivity ploys. Metro is more than some token incompatibility, it's a logical answer to Microsoft's failures with mobile. We'll see in this case!

[Mark Asher]

I really am out of touch on these things, but I guess that the Windows App Store is a place where Microsoft gets a cut of every sale? So the natural inclination would be to push things to the App Store? Will it still be possible to develop and sell outside of the App Store?

[TurinTur]

I really am out of touch on these things, but I guess that the Windows App Store is a place where Microsoft gets a cut of every sale? So the natural inclination would be to push things to the App Store? Will it still be possible to develop and sell outside of the App Store?

Yes to both, from what I know.

[pyjamarama]

First party publishers job is not maximize there own game sales but maximize platform adoption. Windows 8 has a new development API will have a store and be connected to Xbox Live, Microsoft will have very little gains from porting that to Windows 7, so any game that can be played on touchscreen is in MS interest to make it exclusive to Windows 8.

If you are and independent developer and sign with Microsoft hopefully you retain control of you game, and after a period of exclusivity you are free to pot it to other platforms, so this guys if they are successful in the Microsoft platform can continue their studio operations and port for Win7/XP, IOs and Android down the line.

[LMN8R]

There is plenty of info about the store here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstore/

The store is the only place you can get apps for the new interface, but the desktop is still there fully intact and improved from Windows 7. The caveat is businesses, where you can side-load business-oriented apps instead of needing to get them from the store.

From the Store, Microsoft gets the standard 30%, but there are some nuances different from other stores:

1) After the app has netted $25,000 in total revenue (not developer cut) in initial purchases and in-app purchases combined, the developer's cut goes up from 70% to 80% for future purchases.

2) Developers are free to use whatever in-app purchasing model they want. Meaning Amazon can simply use their own transaction model for new Kindle book purchases if they want, retaining 100% of the revenue instead of 70% as they'd be forced to do on iOS. Or for developers who don't have their own infrastructure in place for that, they can use Microsoft's, and retain the same 70/80% as they do for app purcahses.


Then there's metrics and such to track app crashes, usage, etc.

[Teiman]

*stuff*

[DeepT]

The idea that we divide apps into "OS" is quaint. OS's are not important anymore. Wen I buy a game on Steam, I could play it on Windows, but If I bought a Mac, I will be able to play the Mac version too. The world has grown beyond OS. OS are just the tool to download Google Chrome, so you can download Steam.
We live a post-OS era, where the fun things don't come from OS-uncompatibiles, but BEYOND.

I would love for that to be true, but right now, we are not living in a post-OS era. Who has the most games? Windows. Compare that to Mac or iOS or Android.

If we really DID live in such a time, then the vast majority of all titles would be available on all platforms. I sure hope we are heading there, but right now we are not even close.

I hate the way things are going on all these platforms (except for Android). Everyone seems to be locking things down opposed to opening things up. It makes me very nervous. I hope some other platform will appear that will rescue us from the current trend of making us play by their rules. Either someone has to come into the OS market and deliver something to knock both MS and Apple to 2nd and 3rd tier or someone will have to create some kind of universal API that will run on any platform.

I hope Windows 8 tanks and really hurts MS in a bad way, bad enough where they will forever refrain from this heavy-handed approach. I also hope Apple gets it's beat down too for their heavy-handed approach to their Apple store.

[Destarius]

God, I remember the Halo 2/Vista debacle. Wait, do you REALLY mean to tell me that a dated-looking, low-tech game that runs perfectly well on a system that is the same age as WinXP (almost to the month) that has almost no RAM and a crap graphics card CAN'T run on a WinXP system with components leagues ahead of console-land--but a PC with quantifiably worse specs running Vista (poorly) is okay?

I remember that. I also remember thinking then that whoever ran Games for Windows probably didn't actually play games. At all.

[sharaleo]

The store is the only place you can get apps for the new interface, but the desktop is still there fully intact and improved from Windows 7. The caveat is businesses, where you can side-load business-oriented apps instead of needing to get them from the store.

Does this mean that the days of yore are no more? Will I not be able to install VLC Player, The Gimp, LibreOffice, Audacity, Handbrake, 7-zip, XnView, Foobar, ImgBrn, etc on a Win8 PC unless those developers release a Win8 App Store version (free or otherwise)? Will I not be able to go to the desktop and install these apps directly, or is it just going to be made difficult?

Oh bugger it, I just remembered I downloaded the release preview, gonna VM it to have a play.

Edit: Nope, seems business as usual. In the release preview I can download and install apps from desktop and explorer as I would with Win7. Chrome and VLC worked no probs.

[Alan Friesen]

Good luck to them, but I really have no pity when they announce in a year that their studio is going belly-up because sales are non-existent.

Why would ANYONE develop for an OS that's not been released yet? What happens if Metro is as poorly received as Vista or ME?

As for Windows 8: if I could play every single XBLA game on a PC without needing an XBox 360, I'd happily pay $120 (or however much it cost me for a Windows 7 license -- the same price as an XBox 360 on sale, in other words). If that's where they're going, merging the two platforms, I could be happy with that. I don't even care about retail XB games, just the cool stuff on XBLA like Ikaruga, the two pinball games, Marvel vs. Capcom, etc. If not, then I'll wait for Windows 9. No rush.

[Pyperkub]

Why would I ever buy something from a windows 8 store, a la apple's store thing? Fuck them.

Why would anyone buy anything from the apple app store? Oh, yeah. Why wouldn't ms want that same revenue stream, even if it isn't as much as apple?

[Mark Asher]

The flip side is if you're a developer and you have to give 30% to someone, why not give it to Apple? They're the bigger company now with the legion of fans. You develop for iOS and you have potential sales on the iPod, iPad, and iPhone. You develop for Metro and you have potential sales to everyone who moves to Windows 8 and uses the Metro interface.

[Teiman]

A repository make sure apps behave correctly at install/uninstall, so you can install 900 or 9000 and never have a conflict. Since is that easy to install a app, make sense to have a app that do only one thing, but do it well, like instagram. Developpers are very good at very well defined problems, so a app that only do one thing, normally do it very well.

[instant0]

Aaargh, I know Microsoft likes money, but I feel like Windows 7 is just hitting its stride and I like it. Why can't we have another 10 year reign of an OS as we did with XP?

you can and you will. Win8 is an abomination unless you are on a tablet or really really want a nice looking task manager.

[beloved one]

you can and you will. Win8 is an abomination unless you are on a tablet or really really want a nice looking task manager.

I use it because the suspend/renew or reboot times are really tiny, it's nice to have a pc that is more like a phone/tablet from a power perspective. I agree it's a bit clunky having things moved around if you are used to win7, but its no problem if you are used to windows key +query to search already.

Anyway, if people want portable apps they will write them in mostly html5 and javascript, which are pretty easy to move anywhere.

[Brendan]

Metro is more...it's a logical answer to Microsoft's failures with mobile. We'll see in this case!

I disagree, Metro is Microsoft strapping an albatross around the neck of its golden goose (The desktop.).

[z22]

I give Microsoft ~10 years before they are not even worth mentioning in any form of microcomputing. They had their stay and now their products suck, and with Gates gone they are done.

[stusser]

I disagree, Metro is Microsoft strapping an albatross around the neck of its golden goose (The desktop.).
Metro is a great UI. It works fantastically on touchscreens. It's just not a desktop.

What MS is doing here is sacrificing their desktop userbase (ie, all of it) to leverage acceptance of their phone/tablet OS. That seems foolish, because right now in Q2 2012 nobody uses a windows phone, windows tablets don't really exist yet, and we all use computers, some of us with tablets as an ancillary device, but almost never primary. But MS thinks that we're about to enter a post-desktop world, and they may be right. They may not, too.

It's a huge risk, and what's really annoying is that it's totally unnecessary. Why piss off the desktop users? Keep metro separate, and let is stand or fall on its own-- it is again, reportedly quite excellent on tablets and phones.

That's what Apple did, and while they had the obvious benefit of being several years ahead in the market, their product would not have succeeded if it was crappy.

[pyjamarama]

I give Microsoft ~10 years before they are not even worth mentioning in any form of microcomputing. They had their stay and now their products suck, and with Gates gone they are done.

I can't think of a single Microsoft product that it isn't much better now than it ever was in the Gates era.

[DeepT]

Everything has to come to an end at some point. In the 70s IBM was the unstoppable Goliath. Maybe someone will take the next few years to introduce a new OS while MS is trying to ram Metro down our throats.

I doubt this will happen, but I can hope. The only company I know of that has a shot at this is Google, but they kind of killed their laptop / desktop OS. OR maybe we will be stuck for a few years and MS will come to their senses with Windows 9. I just will want plenty of warning if they are going to stop Win 7 sales so I can buy a few copies to get me through the next few years if I build new PCs.

[TurinTur]

Metro is a great UI. It works fantastically on touchscreens. It's just not a desktop.

What MS is doing here is sacrificing their desktop userbase (ie, all of it) to leverage acceptance of their phone/tablet OS. That seems foolish, because right now in Q2 2012 nobody uses a windows phone, windows tablets don't really exist yet, and we all use computers, some of us with tablets as an ancillary device, but almost never primary. But MS thinks that we're about to enter a post-desktop world, and they may be right. They may not, too.

It's a huge risk, and what's really annoying is that it's totally unnecessary. Why piss off the desktop users? Keep metro separate, and let is stand or fall on its own-- it is again, reportedly quite excellent on tablets and phones.

That's what Apple did, and while they had the obvious benefit of being several years ahead in the market, their product would not have succeeded if it was crappy.

That's also my argument. Why the hell are they risking their... what? 525 million userbase of Windows (just read in Wikipedia) to win a pair of dozens millions in the tablet market in the next years?

[DarthMasta]

It's a huge risk, and what's really annoying is that it's totally unnecessary. Why piss off the desktop users? Keep metro separate, and let is stand or fall on its own-- it is again, reportedly quite excellent on tablets and phones.

They're trying to leverage their desktop position, and I can see how it makes sense. Force desktop users to deal with Metro, and soon enough, Metro will be familiar, and worth looking for in a tablet / phone, instead of having to deal with a different way of doing things.

But it can backfire spectacularly. Metro might get known as "That crap Microsoft tried to shove down our throats", with users refusing to upgrade.

But if they don't force users to deal with Metro, then it'll just reside in a little ghetto on our desktop PC's, similar to the Command Line, and never achieve what they want it to.

Last time such a jump happened, was back when DOS gave way to Windows, and it worked pretty well for Microsoft. But Windows was an upgrade, at least IMO. If Metro is seen not as an improvement but a downgrade, it might get rough.

And I wouldn't bet a company on Win8 exclusivity, not if I had a choice in the matter.

[TurinTur]

The Dos to Windows transition was much smoother.

Think how the new window based system was an optional, separate program for years (Windows 3.x), until they finally switched the order, with the base OS being Windows 95 and the old system, DOS, being optional but still accessible.

[rezaf]

Can't you still run Win8 in Win7-mode (i.e., non-metro), though?

Microsoft's lecturing attitude has been around for a while - take a look at the ribbon interface. I know quite a few people are happy with it, but quite a few other people are not, and yet MS neglected implementing backwards compatibility even in a simplified form. Many office shortcuts where changed without good reason and not even mockup-oldschool menues like a couple of 3rd party addons offer were included. And now they're using the glorious mess of an interface for the windows explorer as well. Why oh why?

About new OSes, I had a bet going in my company that Google would offer a desktop Chrome OS within two years. That was almost five years ago now...
Problem is, Windows offers a consistent UI and experience (CTRL-C/CTRL-V usually working globally is one example) and tons of tools and programs for ANY task, which will usually run even if they've been made ten years ago. Any OS trying to beat that has a hellova lot of catching-up to do.
And, of course, there's games...
The only REAL chances I see is either Microsoft completely dropping the ball (for example, by releasing an OS that cannot run software from older windows versions either), thus evening the odds, or some OS to allow a legacy mode for all windows software (WINE on steroids).
Otherwise, my view is: Ain't gonna happen.

I don't understand MS obsession to cap into the phone market either, though. Especially not in expense of the desktop users.
Apple has managed to make it's phone almost a cultural icon, and people are willing to accept outrageous pricing, a locked-in app store and several structural weaknesses just so they can be part of the phenomenon.
You can't beat that by force, the best course of action would be to just weather the storm.
_____
rezaf

[Brendan]

Metro is a great UI. It works fantastically on touchscreens. It's just not a desktop.

What MS is doing here is sacrificing their desktop userbase (ie, all of it) to leverage acceptance of their phone/tablet OS. That seems foolish, because right now in Q2 2012 nobody uses a windows phone, windows tablets don't really exist yet, and we all use computers, some of us with tablets as an ancillary device, but almost never primary. But MS thinks that we're about to enter a post-desktop world, and they may be right. They may not, too.

It's a huge risk, and what's really annoying is that it's totally unnecessary. Why piss off the desktop users? Keep metro separate, and let is stand or fall on its own-- it is again, reportedly quite excellent on tablets and phones.

That's what Apple did, and while they had the obvious benefit of being several years ahead in the market, their product would not have succeeded if it was crappy.

That is kind of what I was saying. Their mobile strategy has been awful and forcing it onto the only successful part of their business is a very risky gamble.

[stusser]

Can't you still run Win8 in Win7-mode (i.e., non-metro), though?
Win8 on intel still has the traditional desktop, sure. But you can't avoid metro entirely, and the whole thing really feels like it was build to work with a touchscreen, or at least a touchpad. The mouse is awkward.

[ibdoomed]

So I installed Win8 on my tablet (hp slate) and I can't figure out how to get the menu that slides in from the right to appear. I don't even know what that thing is called so it's tough to google. I slide my finger to the right edge, corner, etc... and nada... it's a lot easier with a mouse.

[rezaf]

Win8 on intel still has the traditional desktop, sure. But you can't avoid metro entirely, and the whole thing really feels like it was build to work with a touchscreen, or at least a touchpad. The mouse is awkward.

Ah, I was under the impression you COULD sorta ... turn off metro, so to speak. What does that mean, you cannot avoid it entirely? Where does it get in the way?

Anyway, creating an interface that feels awkward with the mouse when 99% or your current and - even if all your hopes come true - 90% of your future userbase are using one ... = fail.
_____
rezaf

[stusser]

So I installed Win8 on my tablet (hp slate) and I can't figure out how to get the menu that slides in from the right to appear. I don't even know what that thing is called so it's tough to google.
Your tablet doesn't have good edge detection. Lots of pre-win8 tablets exhibit that problem. It's called the "charms bar".

Metro apps are the default handler for a lot of filetypes (which can of course be changed), metro must be used for configuring a bunch of stuff, and you can't avoid the metro start screen or charms bar.

[Rachel Brown]

I hope Windows 8 tanks and really hurts MS in a bad way, bad enough where they will forever refrain from this heavy-handed approach. I also hope Apple gets it's beat down too for their heavy-handed approach to their Apple store.

My sentiments exactly. It's as if we're mind connected, ..or something.

[Armando Penblade]

Ah, I was under the impression you COULD sorta ... turn off metro, so to speak. What does that mean, you cannot avoid it entirely? Where does it get in the way?

The Start Menu is only available in a Metro-style format; the traditional start menu has been completely removed from the OS.

IIRC, the shutdown menu might be the same. Not as sure on that.

[stusser]

It is, yes. You can only shutdown from the "charms" menu, which you drag in from the right.

[Jason Townsend]

If I wanted an Apple UI and application ecosystem I'd use Apple products. I hope the conventional PC gaming space manages to continue whatever happens with this tablet-and-mobile-model-foisting exercise.

[ShivaX]

But it can backfire spectacularly. Metro might get known as "That crap Microsoft tried to shove down our throats", with users refusing to upgrade.

Especially since, historically, that is exactly what happened with a lot of Windows versions.

[stusser]

No, actually. MS made plenty of missteps, but they had their heart in the right place. Each and every one was intended to improve the core windows desktop experience.

The forced metro integration is not intended to improve the core windows desktop experience. Quite the contrary. It's intended to leverage their enormous desktop userbase to promote their new table/phone OS. And that's why we're pissed off.

[Mark Asher]

They're trying to leverage their desktop position, and I can see how it makes sense. Force desktop users to deal with Metro, and soon enough, Metro will be familiar, and worth looking for in a tablet / phone, instead of having to deal with a different way of doing things.

But it can backfire spectacularly. Metro might get known as "That crap Microsoft tried to shove down our throats", with users refusing to upgrade.

But if they don't force users to deal with Metro, then it'll just reside in a little ghetto on our desktop PC's, similar to the Command Line, and never achieve what they want it to.

Last time such a jump happened, was back when DOS gave way to Windows, and it worked pretty well for Microsoft. But Windows was an upgrade, at least IMO. If Metro is seen not as an improvement but a downgrade, it might get rough.

And I wouldn't bet a company on Win8 exclusivity, not if I had a choice in the matter.

Thing is, Metro will be easy to use and pick up when we have a tablet device in our hands. How many of us struggled to use an iPod or iPhone or Android device? They are more intuitive than a mouse-driven interface.

In other words there is no need to force us to use the Metro UI. We will naturally use it when we have a tablet device. When we are using mouse and keyboard it's aggravating to be forced to use Metro UI, just like it would be aggravating to drop into DOS from Windows at some point.

That's the part I don't agree with. Build in Metro but let us use it when we want to, and when we get a tablet we will want to. If I had that Windows Surface PC I'd switch to Metro when I was using it as a tablet and use the desktop when I was using it as a PC. That's clearly the advantage Microsoft has over Apple. I get a device I can use equally well. It's annoying that Microsoft insists I use Metro when I want to use my device like a PC. It's needless from a user's perspective.

[DarthMasta]

Microsoft apparently doesn't agree.

[rei]

Every app looked the same. (http://blog.philgetzen.com/post/17244201404/why-windows-phone-7-will-never-take-off)

[pyjamarama]

Quick look Skulls of the Shogun (http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-ex-skulls-of-the-shogun-on-windows-8-tablet/17-6273/) the first game to come out across Windows 8, Windows Phone and XBLA, will support cross play among all platforms with asynchronous play.

[GeeWhiz]

Quick look Skulls of the Shogun (http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-ex-skulls-of-the-shogun-on-windows-8-tablet/17-6273/) the first game to come out across Windows 8, Windows Phone and XBLA, will support cross play among all platforms with asynchronous play.

I have been anticipating this game for a long time, but not going to upgrade to Win 8 to play it on my PC.


Oh, well.

[rei]

I expect their post-mortem to cover the surprise at how little it sells.

[instant0]

I expect their post-mortem to cover the surprise at how little it sells.

Maybe it will be a success.

And the first seal to the gates of hell is broken at the same time.

[pyjamarama]

I have been anticipating this game for a long time, but not going to upgrade to Win 8 to play it on my PC.


Oh, well.

Well the Windows 8 Release Preview expires in January of 2013 so you can install it on a VM buy the game in October and play it with a mouse and keyboard. Or buy a X360 or a Windows Phone 8

[Zeitgeist]

Every app looked the same. (http://blog.philgetzen.com/post/17244201404/why-windows-phone-7-will-never-take-off)

Having written apps for both platforms, I disagree with his notion that apps are easier to write for iOS than for WP7.

That aside, I want free hardware, too! :(

[rei]

Wonder if Skulls of the Shogun would theoretically make more money releasing on iOS first instead versus being a Win8 exclusive.

[GeeWhiz]

Wonder if Skulls of the Shogun would theoretically make more money releasing on iOS first instead versus being a Win8 exclusive.

I think it would.


Now would it make more if it was Win7 etc and on steam - That is the real question. ;>)

[rei]

Continuing their streak of being THE WORST with their product names, MS has renamed GFW "Xbox Windows" now and their Windows Phone Marketplace to Windows Phone Store.

[DennyA]

Continuing their streak of being THE WORST with their product names, MS has renamed GFW "Xbox Windows" now and their Windows Phone Marketplace to Windows Phone Store.

Hey, look at the bright side. Using Microsoft's early-2000's branding schemes, they'd probably have called it "Xbox Gaming Client Zone LIVE for Microsoft Windows 8 Consumer Edition Operating Systems 2013." No, wait, you'd have to work Sidewinder in there somewhere too.

[stusser]

"Xbox Windows"
What the what?

[Mark Asher]

What the what?


Ha ha -- yeah, "Xbox Windows" is not too far from "Macintosh Windows." It's like oil and water.

It would be cool if it meant you could buy an Xbox Windows game and it would work on both platforms. "Hey, the new Xbox Windows Halo is out! I'm gonna play this on my PC instead of the 720!"

[wilykat]

I hope it gets abbreviated to X-Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System).

[Razgon]

I hope it gets abbreviated to X-Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System).

Or just X-Win!

[Ginger Yellow]

Almost as good a branding exercise as when they renamed their Video store "Zune Marketplace", even in Europe where they've never sold Zune hardware.

[Teiman]

I just hope it don't use the BITS protocol.

[Zak Gordon]

OpenGL, OpenAL, C compilers, C++ compilers.

Writting code that run on any OS is not easy, but is not magic either.

DirectX was designed mostly to kill multiplatform libraries like OpenGL, to make game devs addict to windows game developing.

Now that Microsoft has consoles, all his efforts are to stop game devs from developing for the PC, and make then make 'exclusive' content for the XBox.

A 'Exclusive XBox' game is a game that first run on a PC, but then is released for the XBox so can't be played on the PC.

This is the world that Microsoft has created. A world that is sadistic against the PC.

Windows 8 exclusive games is only another nail stabbed on the eye of PC gamers.

Monopolies, pure and simple. There is a reason why Steam become the virtual monopoly it did in the DD pc space. It seems it is in the core ideological fabric of everyone that worked at MS. It's what they do.

On the other hand MS has been amazing at creating a fully working complex OS that most people can use, and it is the basis for lots of freedom to create. As Steam has become a great service at what it does and lots of gamers prefer to get their games their for all the extra service side stuff it does well.

I guess the general PC game dev industry can just treat windows 8 as a curiosity and carry on with normal business (i assume games that work on other Windows will also work on 8?), but if they wish to go the whole 'MS trying to be apple' route in the mobile space they will either have to design for it from scratch and do all that or release both a wider general windows version and a windows 8/mobile version etc?

[Teiman]

I guess the general PC game dev industry can just treat windows 8 as a curiosity and carry on with normal business (i assume games that work on other Windows will also work on 8?), but if they wish to go the whole 'MS trying to be apple' route in the mobile space they will either have to design for it from scratch and do all that or release both a wider general windows version and a windows 8/mobile version etc?

I suppose nobody want to be remembered and quoted as the guy that said "Railroads? a fad", "Electricity? a fad", "The internet? just a fad" ( I think that one is malattributed to Bill Gates).

More because tablets 'feel' like more than a fad. Feel like something is here to stay, and even the people on this thread is convinces is destined to take a piece of the cake. The jury is still out how big that would be. Plus Microsoft idea of cultivating a software ecosystem is trying to kill Netscape.

If Windows 8 become a good "monetize" machine for Microsoft, may in turn happens that Microsoft would threat Windows as a menace, and something to kill or put in life support. Is basically what is doing to Windows gaming. Since XBox is monetized everywhere, Windows is a inferior platform with less monetization avenues for them. Want to convert Windows gamers into XBox gamers. May happend in the future that Microsoft would want to turn desktop users into tablet users, if get more "ROI" (or whatever is the right acronym) from tablet users. Its a very real posibility, since tablets buy movies, music, games and other apps. While desktops users mostly chat in facebook and pirate stuff.

[CustodianV131]

I've been watching this for years now and I can only reach one conclusion on Microsoft and PC gaming:

They just don't (want to) get it.

[J Thomas]

Microsoft used to 'get it' though, back in the 80's and 90's at least. They seemed to lose much of their interest in PC gaming after they released their own console.

[Ginger Yellow]

Since XBox is monetized everywhere, Windows is a inferior platform with less monetization avenues for them. Want to convert Windows gamers into XBox gamers.
The irony being, of course, that Windows makes MS more money every quarter than Xbox has over its entire lifetime.

[stusser]

It would be cool if it meant you could buy an Xbox Windows game and it would work on both platforms. "Hey, the new Xbox Windows Halo is out! I'm gonna play this on my PC instead of the 720!"
I don't think they'll go that far, you'll still need to pick console or windows, but it does seem likely that they'll unify the platforms.

We discussed this in the other win8 threads-- the xbox720 will very likely be running a version of win8, and xbox720 games will be written to winRT. Since win8/x86 also runs winRT, it will be very easy to port those console games to computers. And since Microsoft only allows users to install winRT apps from their app store, they will control the means of distribution.

[pyjamarama]

More signs to a Windows 8 (http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/08/13/more-signs-pointing-at-windows-8-on-next-gen-xbox/) version powering the next XBOX, seems like the right thing to do, if the port between the two is seamless enough maybe a case can be made for buy once run on different platforms model, like Steam works for most games between PC and Mac.

[stusser]

Yep, didn't take Nostradamus to see that coming.

[Starlight]

It's like the DX10 clusterfuck again...devs are not going to play along.

[stusser]

It's like the DX10 clusterfuck again...devs are not going to play along.
So you think the Xbox720 will launch with only first-party titles, then? That seems... unlikely.

Directx10 was widely ignored because the GPU in the xbox360 didn't support its extensions and most computer games are ported xbox360 games.

Devs won't have any choice. If they want to develop for the Xbox720, they will use WinRT, because that's what runs on the Xbox720.

If they want to get that same game running on Windows on computers, they can either trivially port it over to the superset of WinRT supported by windows/x86 and windows/ARM or go to the trouble of a full port like they do now.

[Starlight]

No, I'm saying that most devs are not going to restrict themselves to Windows 8 (due to WinRT), in the same way that most devs did not restrict themselves to Windows Vista (due to DX10).

I think you're overestimating how tied to OS functions game engines are, they use...mouse handling and a few other aspects, but mostly it's DirectX.

Windows 8 is going to have a Vista-like penetration profile, at best (probably worse, due to the global financial situation and the fact there was a 5 year gap between XP and Vista, but 3 years between 7 and 8).

[Telefrog]

stusser is saying that if devs want their games on the next Xbox, they're going to use the Win 8 APIs. Those games will then in turn be very easy to port to Win 8. I'd imagine the next gen of CoD/Battlefield/Assassin's Creed/AAA big budget games will want to be on the next Xbox.

[Starlight]

Yes, but are you seriously arguing that they'll ONLY be on Windows 8 rather than Windows Vista and 7 as well? More, are you arguing that they'll chose to have two, rather than one, x86 windows version?

Given the choice between Steam and Microsoft's Store, which will they choose? My bet's on Steam.

(Any ARM RT version is going to be a be a cut-down version, since ARM devices are not on-par with PC's...THAT would be in the Windows store, and one of the last things you want is to confuse the player with multiple game versions!)

[Telefrog]

I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying that those huge budget console games will want to be on Microsoft's gaming console unless something super nuts happens in the next year. I have no idea if they'll make two versions or whatever to accomodate Win 7/Win 8, but don't they pretty much do that now with the PS3 SKUs?

Either way, Call of Duty isn't going to miss the console gravy train.

[Starlight]

My argument is that we won't see many Win 8 exclusives on the PC. (At least for some years - 5+)

It is very similar to the situation with the PS3, but that's lead engines to less rather than more OS-function dependence...

[stusser]

Yes, but are you seriously arguing that they'll ONLY be on Windows 8 rather than Windows Vista and 7 as well? More, are you arguing that they'll chose to have two, rather than one, x86 windows version?
Not initially, certainly, but if win8 takes off they'll switch over to WinRT after a year or two.

If WinRT tablets take off they will indeed make a separate winRT touch version. But that is really unlikely.

[Starlight]

A year or two? Windows 7 has consistently doubled Vista's adoption rate, and yet nobody's talking about abandoning Vista support! (Heck, the vast majority of games still run on XP, which is sitting on 14% on the steam hardware survey - higher than Vista, and near-identical to 7 32-bit!)

And I'm not sure, actually - I can see WinRT tablets doing okay. Remember that that's both ARM and x86 tablets combined.

[stusser]

Doubling vista's adoption rate is faint praise indeed.

Anyway, it won't happen until win8 really takes off.

[Teiman]

He!, the PC can do with more game, if are well ported. No that shit that don't even support good mouse+keyboard controls, or the native resolution.

[Starlight]

I'd put cash on the following - Lazy ports will remain lazy.

stusser - It more speaks to how XP's endured. Heck, a good deal of early W7 adoption was at Vista's expense. I expect Microsoft will only talk about total Win8 numbers, rather than how it compares to previous version sales...

[rei]

Soooo...are any Windows 8 exclusives making any money?

[Brad Grenz]

I don't know, do you count money hats?

[rei]

Skull of the Shoguns developer must be rolling in the Windows 8-exclusive money, right? With DX11.1 too, MS is doing their darndest to kill PC gaming once again.