Dead Island Riptide [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

Telefrog

01-15-2013, 03:53 PM

The CE statue may get pulled.

We deeply apologize for any offense caused by the Dead Island Riptide “Zombie Bait Edition”, the collector’s edition announced for Europe and Australia. Like many gaming companies, Deep Silver has many offices in different countries, which is why sometimes different versions of Collector’s Editions come into being for North America, Europe, Australia, and Asia.

For the limited run of the Zombie Bait Edition for Europe and Australia, a decision was made to include a gruesome statue of a zombie torso, which was cut up like many of our fans had done to the undead enemies in the original Dead Island.

We sincerely regret this choice. We are collecting feedback continuously from the Dead Island community, as well as the international gaming community at large, for ongoing internal meetings with Deep Silver's entire international team today. For now, we want to reiterate to the community, fans and industry how deeply sorry we are, and that we are committed to making sure this will never happen again.

MrRyan

01-16-2013, 01:42 AM

Am I the only one here that viewed that bust as that belonging to a cut up zombie, and not a woman? Humanity kind of goes out the window for me once you become undead, and this "collector's" item is tied to a zombie game. I can't recall any missions in the first Dead Island that had me slicing up a healthy human female, and typically if you see anything that's been dismembered (vs devoured) it's a zombie. To me, this was supposed to be a zombie, and it was referred to as a zombie torso in the apology.

If people are going to make assumptions about it belonging to a formerly healthy female, then let's mix things up. Couldn't I make the claim that it's actually a torso belonging to a formerly alive transsexual man? It's certainly a muscular enough, and those breasts are far from natural looking.

I'm not trying to defend this thing as anything classy, and it's certainly not something I'd want in my home. I just view it as shitty swag, and we've seen our share. Think of the weird shit that sometimes comes out of Japan, or perhaps the Catherine boxed copies that hit the US (which included a Catherine pillowcase). I feel like editors are chasing controversy during what's typically a big lull in the gaming industry when it comes to news, releases, etc.

I think the most surprising bit of all of this honestly was seeing Jim Sterling chip in, the very same dude that enjoyed this fine work of art:

http://www.destructoid.com/review-saints-row-the-third-dildo-baseball-bat-215241.phtml

He was quoted by Crecente at Polygon (who went over the top on the initial headline) as one of those disturbed by the torso to the point that he wouldn't display it amongst his swag, but damnit give that man a giant floppy dildo and he'll be all over it with a full review for the Destructoid community.

Bastables

01-16-2013, 01:54 AM

Am I the only one here that viewed that bust as that belonging to a cut up zombie, and not a woman? Humanity kind of goes out the window for me once you become undead, and this "collector's" item is tied to a zombie game. I can't recall any missions in the first Dead Island that had me slicing up a female, and typically if you see anything that's been dismembered (vs devoured) it's a zombie.

If people are going to make assumptions about it belonging to a formerly healthy female, then let's mix things up. Couldn't I make the claim that it's actually a torso belonging to a formerly alive transsexual man? It's certainly a muscular enough, and those breasts are far from natural looking.

Hmmm a dismembered tit torso, with the tits unmarred. A torso without the in game identifier of zombifcation of sore's/green/gray skin.
A zombie torso labeled as Zombie bait. . . Do you bait zombies with female tit torsos, is that what the game is about? Do you carry one of these dismembered transvestite torsos with untouched breasts in order to draw zombies away? Is that what this monstrous piece of entertainment is about?

From a stable of developers that actually referred to one of their own female characters as femnistwhorepurna.

yes obviously the benefit of the doubt should be given to odious misogyny. Or your part of the problem.

MrRyan

01-16-2013, 02:05 AM

yes obviously the benefit of the doubt should be given to odious misogyny. Or your part of the problem.

Again, in the apology it was even referred to as a zombie torso. You can call it BS, but even before that apology came I myself perceived it to be only a zombie torso, nothing else. Whether it was a large breasted torso, or the lower half of a dismembered male torso in a man thong, I would have viewed it exactly the same - remnants of a dead zombie.

I have a hard time believing that the team at Deep Silver, especially anyone that works in their marketing department, hatched this plan because they wanted to promote sexualized violence and/or hatred against women. I can't comment on the name of the character you mentioned, as I don't recall it.

Interesting week though. We've had journos go from freaking out about the public blaming gun violence on games, and defending games as an artform, to freaking out about games having some sort of voodoo ties to misogynist attitudes. So games don't promote gun violence, but they obviously create women hating bigots. Then who knows, maybe those women haters will turn into violent murderers. You know, the type that dismember females. Is that what we're supposed to believe now, if this edition were to come out as is?

Bastables

01-16-2013, 02:07 AM

Was that Catherine pillow case just her dismembered torso with her breasts untouched.

Or they could have avoided fuckwittery by having a zombie girl, or a (tasteless/exploitative) a bikini girl being bitten by a zombie. Any other option. Any other fucking option: Hey why not a dismembered male torso with a death induced erection (no because that shit does not happen). No they went with tit torso with a developer that had already labeled one of their own characters as a whore.

Tell me do you remember spec op's the lines collectors edition of arab looking chaps with giant entry/exit hold through their faces. Or a statue of the dead mother and girl. How about those dismembered Isaac corpses you got in dead space 2 special edition. How about call of duty's gun shot baby in a carriage diorama. Oh that's right their pr companies were not insane or at least were self aware enough to not publicly exhibit their fuckwittery.

Teiman

01-16-2013, 02:07 AM

The original name was probably Troll Bait, but changed it to avoid to stir lame discussions on the Internet.

I am very concerned about the republicanism message of Chess. Chess is a game where you main objective is regicide. The violence and implied "peons are more valued than queens" is disgusting. Why the queen move different thant he king? why the game ends wen you kill the male, and not the women?

So games don't promote gun violence, but they obviously create women hating bigots.

This part was probably sarcasm, and I have read it that way, but just in case: videogames don't create bigots,... videogames entertain bigots, the same way TV, reading and book, or licking a ice cream, entertain bigots and people that are not bigots. Bigots play videogames, because any type of person play videogames.

Oghier

01-16-2013, 03:14 AM

Couldn't I make the claim that it's actually a torso belonging to a formerly alive transsexual man?

To the vast majority of people, a pair of tits in a bikini signify "female" before anything else.

Deep Silver are the same folks that had "Feminist Whore" as a (hidden) skill in the first game.

MrRyan

01-16-2013, 03:18 AM

To the vast majority of people, a pair of tits in a bikini signify "female" before anything else.

Sure, but a dismembered torso that comes with a zombie game also signifies a zombie torso, at least to me, whether male or female.

Deep Silver are the same folks that had "Feminist Whore" as a (hidden) skill in the first game.

Ok, and in just one minute of research I found a company statement on the matter which blamed the hidden skill (which was never meant to be seen by the public) on a single employee.

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/09/08/you-wont-find-the-feminist-wh-re-skill-in-the-final-version-o/

"These unfortunate actions were of one individual at developer company Techland and do not in any way represent the views of publishing company Deep Silver." Further, developer Techland stated: "It obviously violates professional and ethical standards at Techland and should never have happened. We're investigating this right now and we'll issue a statement later. For now, I can only express my sincerest apologies for this incident and assure you that whoever acted so irresponsibly did not represent the views and opinions of Techland. I'm equally sure that aside from the author of that unfortunate line of code, everyone at the office is as disturbed by this as you are."

blah!

01-16-2013, 05:26 AM

Hmmm a dismembered tit torso, with the tits unmarred. A torso without the in game identifier of zombifcation of sore's/green/gray skin.
...

From a stable of developers that actually referred to one of their own female characters as femnistwhorepurna.

yes obviously the benefit of the doubt should be given to odious misogyny. Or your part of the problem.

There are no such in game identifiers as you claim. As for the "stable" of developers, it was a single person, and it didn't even make it into the game, it was found hidden in some files. Not to mention that Techland and Deep Silver aren't the same companies, much less the same people.

It's at worst a distasteful bust of a zombie in a bikini, not exactly front page news even for low brow gaming rags. The first thing I thought when I saw it was, "stupid" not "misogynistic", but of course people will read into anything whatever they want to. This whole "issue" reeks of journalists with nothing better to do. It seems RPS is going to milk their white-knighthood for all it's worth. Basically...

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-24398-0506c4361824fc.gif (http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-24398-0506c4361824fc.gif)

Telefrog

01-16-2013, 07:26 AM

I think the most surprising bit of all of this honestly was seeing Jim Sterling chip in, the very same dude that enjoyed this fine work of art:

http://www.destructoid.com/review-saints-row-the-third-dildo-baseball-bat-215241.phtml

He was quoted by Crecente at Polygon (who went over the top on the initial headline) as one of those disturbed by the torso to the point that he wouldn't display it amongst his swag, but damnit give that man a giant floppy dildo and he'll be all over it with a full review for the Destructoid community.

There's a big difference between a dildo bat and a dismembered female torso. I'm not going to suggest that the makers of SR3 had a lot of deep thinking at the conference table, but a dildo bat is a natural extension (HAR HAR) of the penis-as-weapon theme. The male member being used to bludgeon people is funny because it calls back to centuries old imagery of virility and aggression. It's a blunt metaphor for empowerment.

A torn up torso is just that. It's not a metaphor for anything. You'll note, by the way, that the breasts on it are somehow unharmed despite the evidence of violent attack. Amazing! It's almost as if the sexuality of the figure is somehow supposed to be important to the viewer. Good thing those boobs are intact!

Again, in the apology it was even referred to as a zombie torso. You can call it BS, but even before that apology came I myself perceived it to be only a zombie torso, nothing else. Whether it was a large breasted torso, or the lower half of a dismembered male torso in a man thong, I would have viewed it exactly the same - remnants of a dead zombie.

Yeah, it's interesting that they didn't go with a statue of the lower half of a male swimmer with a bannana hammock. I wonder how that happened? Must've been a roll of the dice, right?

Was that Catherine pillow case just her dismembered torso with her breasts untouched.

Or they could have avoided fuckwittery by having a zombie girl, or a (tasteless/exploitative) a bikini girl being bitten by a zombie. Any other option.

I agree. I wouldn't have had such a disgusted reaction to this if it had been a full figure of a zombified woman in a bikini top with a towel or beach sarong around her waist. That would've been a lot closer to the Venus de Milo (http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/100101/10010136.jpg), which is what they implied the figure was supposed to be based on.

WarrenM

01-16-2013, 07:32 AM

For my part, I view the reaction to these sorts of things as a race to see who can defend the women folk the quickest and be the hero. It's kind of a dumb statue, but .. women are butchered in the game at an alarming rate, at your own hand, and nobody seems to give a damn about that. But, oh, make a statue and OMG!!

Teiman

01-16-2013, 07:38 AM

I am waiting for more information about the game, that is not people reaction to statues.

Other than the video, what we know?, is this riptide thing a expansion? a DLC? how long is?.
What will be the scenario? will the battle against zombies happen in a Australia city, and continue in the interior in the desert?

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 07:39 AM

A torn up torso is just that. It's not a metaphor for anything.

I don't want to make too many assumptions about a marketing gimmick, but there are plenty of handy metaphors if you're hip to zombie horror. They're just not as easy as penis metaphors. :) I've written a bit on the front page about the metaphor as I see it (http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2013/01/16/dead-island-or-bust-the-case-for-tasteless-horror-tchotchkes/) if you're interested.

You'll note, by the way, that the breasts on it are somehow unharmed despite the evidence of violent attack. Amazing! It's almost as if the sexuality of the figure is somehow supposed to be important to the viewer. Good thing those boobs are intact!

I don't understand this point. I doubt you'd be less bothered if her breasts were maimed.

I wouldn't have had such a disgusted reaction to this if it had been a full figure of a zombified woman in a bikini top with a towel or beach sarong around her waist. That would've been a lot closer to the Venus de Milo (http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/100101/10010136.jpg), which is what they implied the figure was supposed to be based on.

Seems to me you're looking in the wrong place for the inspiration. I'd say this is closer to the model for what they were doing.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8231/aphroditebust.jpg

-Tom

Pogo

01-16-2013, 07:43 AM

I have a hard time believing that the team at Deep Silver, especially anyone that works in their marketing department, hatched this plan because they wanted to promote sexualized violence and/or hatred against women.

Jeez, man, that's not how misogyny works. It doesn't have to be deliberate, it's indicative of a culture that thinks these things should be sold, the expectation that this is what gamers would want in their Collector's Edition of a beach island zombie game.

And your zombie torso interpretation is weak. Zombies have rotted flesh. This is a pretty fresh-skinned torso, that doesn't imply zombification. I'm willing to bet, considering community reactions, that you are very much in the minority that looks at this and immediately perceives "zombie" over "human" torso.

I doubt you'd be less bothered if her breasts were maimed.

I think a case could be made for intent if that torso had the signs of being more rotted... greenish flesh, muscles exposed, bite marks. His point about the boobs being immaculate (and weirdly evoking the style of fake polygon boobs) as a sign of the intent of the product is a fair one.

.. women are butchered in the game at an alarming rate, at your own hand, and nobody seems to give a damn about that. But, oh, make a statue and OMG!!

And yet the statue is not a dismembered male torso with a Hawaiian shirt, OMG!

Nikolaj

01-16-2013, 07:50 AM

It's at worst a distasteful bust of a zombie in a bikini, not exactly front page news even for low brow gaming rags. The first thing I thought when I saw it was, "stupid" not "misogynistic", but of course people will read into anything whatever they want to. This whole "issue" reeks of journalists with nothing better to do. It seems RPS is going to milk their white-knighthood for all it's worth. Basically...

That's my impression, too. I guess the lesson here is that big fake tits and extreme gore are both fine, as long as they're apart, but put them together and you're a misogynist.

WarrenM

01-16-2013, 07:56 AM

And yet the statue is not a dismembered male torso with a Hawaiian shirt, OMG!
Not a shock at all, really.

There's an element of sex sells here and nobody wants a male torso as a statue ... well, some people do, but the target audience for this game would overwhelmingly prefer boobs.

The other problem is that a male torso in a Hawaiian shirt wouldn't get a drop of ink in the press. This does. Mission accomplished. The internet is buzzing about Dead Island and I imagine they couldn't be happier about it.

It wouldn't surprise me if they made one of these just to incite the internet to action. They're probably mass producing the real collector's edition item as we speak, all according to plan.

Pogo

01-16-2013, 07:58 AM

I guess the lesson here is that big fake tits and extreme gore are both fine, as long as they're apart, but put them together and you're a misogynist.

The lesson is you should probably sit back and think about this a little more. This thing was put into a box for a collector's edition to be sold to gaming males. There are plenty of male gamers now who don't want acceptance of this type of marketing to be a forlorn conclusion. It's pretty simple and your logic is facile.

There's an element of sex sells here...

Well, yes, that is THE element, that's the only reason this is an issue, even if some of the more reactionary people don't realize it.

Telefrog

01-16-2013, 08:04 AM

I don't want to make too many assumptions about a marketing gimmick, but there are plenty of handy metaphors if you're hip to zombie horror. They're just not as easy as penis metaphors. :) I've written a bit on the front page about the metaphor as I see it (http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2013/01/16/dead-island-or-bust-the-case-for-tasteless-horror-tchotchkes/) if you're interested.

As an avid reader of Fangoria in my youth, I agree with your breakdown of horror and sexuality. They are linked. Which is why I'd have no isses with a full figure bikini-clad zombie statue. Cheesy sexual exploitation of women in cheapo horror movies is a given in the genre. It's not like the first Dead Island wasn't full of bikini babes. Sometimes, it even has a point as you noted it did in Piranha 3D.

I don't understand this point. I doubt you'd be less bothered if her breasts were maimed.

You're right. I'd still think it was a tacky toy, but I'd give it points for being consistent. I'd at least be more willing to accept the premise of the bikini babe being just a regular old zombie attack victim. The breasts being undamaged and perfectly round seem like a direct appeal to male sexuality rather than to a general zombie enthusiast. You know, unless the makers of the statue have some backstory reason like "the zombie didn't mar her boobs because they're fake and the undead don't eat silicone." Hey! Wait a minute...

Seems to me you're looking in the wrong place for the inspiration. I'd say this is closer to the model for what they were doing.

Point taken.

Teiman

01-16-2013, 08:09 AM

Is a good thing I don't have childrens, because some things about people are horrific.

The Catholic Church teaches that once consecrated in the Eucharist, the elements cease to be bread and wine and become the body and blood of Christ,[31] each of which is accompanied by the other and by Christ's soul and divinity.[32] The empirical appearance and physical properties are not changed, but for Catholics, the reality is.

Canivalism, necrofagia.

How can a religion like this exist?

A lumberjack, however, comes to the rescue and with his axe cuts open the wolf, who had fallen asleep. Little Red Riding Hood and her grandmother emerge unharmed. They fill the wolf's body with heavy stones. The wolf awakens and tries to flee, but the stones cause him to collapse and die.

Rape, canivalism, vivisection.

And this is the type of stuff people read to his childrens.

garin

01-16-2013, 08:10 AM

Does anyone remember #1reasonwhy? Could you come up with a more misogynistic piece of crap than this if you tried? The grotesquely mutilated corpse of a woman, with only the sexual characteristics left intact. It takes "objectified" to a whole new level.

It's incredibly depressing that a game company would think that this is what their audience wants. What's worse is that in many cases it seems they were right.

Nikolaj

01-16-2013, 08:22 AM

The lesson is you should probably sit back and think about this a little more. This thing was put into a box for a collector's edition to be sold to gaming males. There are plenty of male gamers now who don't want acceptance of this type of marketing to be a forlorn conclusion. It's pretty simple and your logic is facile.

I guess that must be the same male gamers who don't mind that all the women in their games have perfectly shaped bodies, and wear impossibly tight fitting clothes (my favourite is the classic chainmail brasiers).

I can certainly see why people would find the sculpture in question distasteful, and I do too, but acting as if this is somehow the "most misogynist idea that could possibly be conceived" just seems bizarre. I wonder if this would have elicited the same reaction, if the sculpture had been overweight （or, as someone pointed out, a man). It isn't of course, because women in games are very rarely overweight， because sex sells.

Delta

01-16-2013, 08:30 AM

I guess that must be the same male gamers who don't mind that all the women in their games have perfectly shaped bodies, and wear impossibly tight fitting clothes (my favourite is the classic chainmail brasiers).

No, it's the ever growing group of people who are tired of the same, stereotypical and misogynistic attempts at creating female characters. It's not one or the other.

Telefrog

01-16-2013, 08:35 AM

I guess that must be the same male gamers who don't mind that all the women in their games have perfectly shaped bodies, and wear impossibly tight fitting clothes (my favourite is the classic chainmail brasiers).

You apparently missed the hundreds of thousands of threads all over the internet pointing out how ridiculous the chainmail bikini is in RPG games. The depiction of females in video games isn't some new debate. You should try paying attention.

Pogo

01-16-2013, 08:53 AM

I guess that must be the same male gamers

I'm just going to assume that every time you start a post with "I guess," it's going to be followed by inane logic. You should stop guessing.

Nikolaj

01-16-2013, 09:02 AM

You apparently missed the hundreds of thousands of threads all over the internet pointing out how ridiculous the chainmail bikini is in RPG games. The depiction of females in video games isn't some new debate. You should try paying attention.

Yeah, I guess I did miss those hundreds of thousands of threads. I'm only active on this forum, sorry, and the last time I read anything here about misogyny, it was about some other forum that's apparently full of misogynists.

I'm just going to assume that every time you start a post with "I guess," it's going to be followed by inane logic. You should stop guessing.

You should stop insulting people. I think I'll just quit this thread, since some people are clearly too upset about the subject to be disagreed with.

Pogo

01-16-2013, 09:04 AM

Yeah, I guess I did miss those hundreds of thousands of threads. I'm only active on this forum, sorry, and the last time I read anything here about misogyny, it was about some other forum that's apparently full of misogynists.

You should stop insulting people. I think I'll just quit this thread, since some people are clearly too upset about the subject to be disagreed with.

Your posts were a bit more than disagreement, they were strawmanning the people that find this offensive, as if their not explicitly stating their common opinion of finding women in gaming generally objectified as misogynistic is reason to believe they don't care that they're frequently saving troubled sexually-objectified heroines (or shooting them).

Universal Leader

01-16-2013, 09:46 AM

I can certainly see why people would find the sculpture in question distasteful, and I do too, but acting as if this is somehow the "most misogynist idea that could possibly be conceived" just seems bizarre.

It's a sexualized dismembered torso. It's pure serial murder porn.

blah!

01-16-2013, 09:56 AM

It's a Dead Island zombie version of a Roman bust. It's not green or rotted because zombies aren't either of those things in Dead Island. It has no head or arms because that's how a lot of those busts were. http://i.imgur.com/wZn7U.jpg It's in a bikini because most of the women in the game are in bikini's...it's an island resort, and they couldn't do full nude like the real things. As for why it's boobs aren't torn up?...who fucking cares? By the time you get down that far on your list you are already reaching. Given the content of the game and the context of the bust it's not even close the the "most misogynistic piece of crap" I could come up with.

And since Tom is better with words than I am, I'll just quote his words from his article on this issue:

2) It’s gross

Yes, it is. A lot of effective horror is. But did you realize it was also a joke? I suspect a lot of folks didn’t realize it’s supposed to be a riff on marble busts. Which also objectify women — and sometimes even men — by reducing them to the aesthetic appeal of specific isolated parts. That’s the point of a bust. I personally think it’s a clever joke.

....

3) Videogames are already hostile to women

Sometimes. And that sucks. But it’s not as bad as it used to be. This bloody bust is only a setback if you divorce it from its context. Namely, that it’s an appropriate horror themed riff on classical sculpture.

At least someone gets it.

Seriously, what makes this thing more misogynistic than that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer everyone seemed to love? And why not a peep from some of the same people arguing this is so bad?

It's a sexualized dismembered torso. It's pure serial murder porn.

It's a mock roman bust, done in Dead Island style. The bust fits with the game's theme, style, and in game actions. And serial murder porn? Talk about reading way too much into it.

Pogo

01-16-2013, 10:23 AM

It's a Dead Island zombie version of a Roman bust. It's not green or rotted because zombies aren't either of those things in Dead Island. It has no head or arms because that's how a lot of those busts were. http://i.imgur.com/wZn7U.jpg

Both your and Tom's insistence on using this as an example of art imitating art is ridiculous, because Roman busts were not armless and headless to begin with. It was never their intention, and they were carved, by hand, from stone. Their artistic merit has a context, and "marketing tool" wasn't in that context.

It's in a bikini because most of the women in the game are in bikini's...it's an island resort, and they couldn't do full nude like the real things.

"like the real things." Island resorts usually don't have topless women running around.

As for why it's boobs aren't torn up?...who fucking cares? By the time you get down that far on your list you are already reaching.

Considering how shoddily you make your arguments (half of it you haven't even come up with on your own), you're not someone who sounds legitimate in their criticism of who is reaching.

Given the content of the game and the context of the bust it's not even close the the "most misogynistic piece of crap" I could come up with.

You could come up with something worse? I'm not surprised.

And since Tom is better with words than I am, I'll just quote his words from his article on this issue:

2) It’s gross

Yes, it is. A lot of effective horror is. But did you realize it was also a joke? I suspect a lot of folks didn’t realize it’s supposed to be a riff on marble busts. Which also objectify women — and sometimes even men — by reducing them to the aesthetic appeal of specific isolated parts. That’s the point of a bust. I personally think it’s a clever joke.

At least someone gets it.

Except that's not really "getting it," because marble busts don't objectify the body, they attempt to capture and immortalize it through stone. Their intent was never to be provocative, because the naked body was not something that was social stigma. The bikini torso is not an analog to a Roman bust, and I'm surprised this even has to be explained. The more poignant argument that can be made in the comparison is that bikini-torso is an absolute fucking mockery of the Roman bust, not a clever "joke" or "riff."

Seriously, what makes this thing more misogynistic than that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer everyone seemed to love? And why not a peep from some of the same people arguing this is so bad?

What? Do you think everyone that may have taken issue with the trailer should be in this thread arguing against the bikini bust? What's your point, here, other than to sound smarmy?

instant0

01-16-2013, 12:14 PM

Opinions

I disagree

Lynch

01-16-2013, 01:07 PM

Pogo, European resorts are full of topless women.

Teiman

01-16-2013, 01:19 PM

Pogo, European resorts are full of topless women.

*raise hand* I am from spain. On my country, womens often taken sunbaths topless (read: no bra). Is somewhat disappointing because theres nothing sexual in that, It feels very natural.

Anywhere else will use normal clothing, never topless.

Slainte Mhath

01-16-2013, 02:43 PM

To Warren, Tom, Mr. Ryan and anyone else who cares to defend this piece of garbage masquerading as a collector's edition "reward" : Please stop.

Seriously, take a good, long look at that thing. Would you put that in your home? Would you want that on your desk when company came over for dinner? Would you want your kids to see that? I sincerely hope the answer to all of those questions is "of course not!", because that's the only sane answer. Forget for one moment how misogynistic it is and realize, it's a replica of a torn apart human torso, wearing a bikini. Really? Who would want such a thing? Who?

You can argue all day long about the intent behind the piece and debate the level of misogyny it exudes (my opinion : HIGH), but at the end of the day my biggest problem with it, and the problem EVERYONE should have with it, is that it demeans and cheapens our hobby as a whole. It's fucking embarrassing, seriously. And it's associated with a video game. Because damned if it's not already difficult enough to convince people that video games aren't some geeky, juvenile, violence obsessed, "I'm creepy and never touched a real boob before" hobby for discontented adolescent boys who have a high probability of shooting up a school, now we go and add this shit to the mix. Thank you Deep Silver for further proving that video games (and by association the people who enjoy them) are totally worthy of society's contempt. This was irresponsible to the extreme, and could not have been more poorly timed given the renewed debate over violence in video games. I don't give a rat's ass if it was intended to be a zombie, people are going to see it for what it is, a hyper-sexualized mutilated female corpse. Fantastic job Deep Silver, just fucking brilliant.

And lest you argue that I am overreacting, please. I am a 42 year old husband, father and responsible adult. I enjoy video games, a lot. I would love nothing more than to share my love of video games with everyone I meet. Alas, I cannot. If I talk about video games at work, I am judged. If I talk about them to other parents at my children's school, I am judged. If I talk about them to my neighbors, I am judged. The only place I can talk about video games is here, on the internet, in an anonymous forum. Why is that? Why aren't video games, a multi-billion dollar a year industry, considered just as socially acceptable as pop music, movies, TV and sports? It's because of shit like this. Because for every game like Walking Dead, a game with such exemplary writing and design that it haunts you for weeks, there is some idiot out there making a fake mutilated female torso and thinking it's going to be an AWESOME pack in for their zombie game's collector's edition. This is why we can't be taken seriously. This is why people think video games are for kids and guys who never matured past puberty. Until we can change this, video games will never be socially acceptable.

If I could write an open letter to the video games industry it would be only one sentence : GROW THE FUCK UP.

Teiman

01-16-2013, 02:55 PM

TheWombat

01-16-2013, 03:03 PM

I don't think videogames are seens as something for kids because of stuff like this, but because people is ignorant and narcissist. Objetivelly our hobby is not worse than people that watch sport, or people that watch TV. IMHO our hobby is better, since we are not passive, but our hobby is one that ask reflex, memory, sometimes to think hard.

People are ignorant because they have already decided not to delve into our hobby because of stuff like this, at least in part. And people see video games as juvenile entertainment, in part, because of stuff like this. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and sheds water like a duck, it's gonna be seen as a duck, even if it's a swan.

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 04:58 PM

Pogo, European resorts are full of topless women.

Yes. And if you sculpted a "bust"* of a woman in a European resort with no head, no arms, gashes and gouges taken out of her and ridiculously sexualised breasts, you'd be called a pervert. If you even scultped a "bust" of a woman with no head or arms and ridiculously sexualised breasts you'd be called a pervert because women going topless around the Mediterranean isn't a sexual thing. Making it a sexual thing is what's warped.

This is gore porn, in every sense of the phrase. Porn that is gorey, gore that is pornagraphic, gorey porny gore porn.

*Also, good job on all the people who have absolutely no idea what a bust is in the sculpture world. A statue including the torso isn't a bust. Also, the statues without arms or heads weren't sculpted that way. And I can't believe anyone could think they were.

garin

01-16-2013, 05:47 PM

The "roman bust" thing just feels like a total non sequitur. What does Dead Island have to do with roman statuary? The US edition comes with the hula girl ornament, which makes a hell of a lot more sense (and is permitted the dignity of a head).

The "Zombie Bait" doesn't evoke anything classical for me, and I think that if that was genuinely your intention (again, why?) it would turn out quite differently than it did. If it hadn't been explicitly mentioned in the press release, I doubt many people would have been making that connection. I think it's a transparently false claim to legitimacy.

It's a Dead Island zombie version of a Roman bust. It's not green or rotted because zombies aren't either of those things in Dead Island. It has no head or arms because that's how a lot of those busts were. http://i.imgur.com/wZn7U.jpg It's in a bikini because most of the women in the game are in bikini's...it's an island resort, and they couldn't do full nude like the real things. As for why it's boobs aren't torn up?...who fucking cares?
I hate this line of reasoning, as though the creators' hands were tied. There was nothing inevitable about this statue.

Pogo

01-16-2013, 06:13 PM

The "roman bust" thing just feels like a total non sequitur. What does Dead Island have to do with roman statuary? The US edition comes with the hula girl ornament, which makes a hell of a lot more sense (and is permitted the dignity of a head).

My sense is that the marketers came up with the hulu doll, which is actually a quite clever take on a pop culture icon, and then thought "What's its European analog?" That they came up with a Roman Bust is fucking... stupid, just stupid.

Hanacker

01-16-2013, 06:32 PM

The "roman bust" thing just feels like a total non sequitur. What does Dead Island have to do with roman statuary? The US edition comes with the hula girl ornament, which makes a hell of a lot more sense (and is permitted the dignity of a head).

What is this, then?

Edit: Oh, great. Apparently, there is a US version with the appropriate flag bikini: http://www.xboxer360.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Zombie-bait.jpg

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 06:46 PM

My sense is that the marketers came up with the hulu doll, which is actually a quite clever take on a pop culture icon, and then thought "What's its European analog?" That they came up with a Roman Bust is fucking... stupid, just stupid.

They didn't come up with a Roman Bust. Because it's not a Roman Bust.

It'd be like someone saying, "Hey, what's a European version of the American mountain lion? I know! A castrated vagina!"

Hanacker

01-16-2013, 06:50 PM

Maybe people are confused by the difference between bust and busty?

Pogo

01-16-2013, 06:53 PM

They didn't come up with a Roman Bust. Because it's not a Roman Bust.

It'd be like someone saying, "Hey, what's a European version of the American mountain lion? I know! A castrated vagina!"

Man, I know. Work with me, here.

Two Sheds

01-16-2013, 07:38 PM

Like Mrenda said, this is a bust, you nerds:

http://i.imgur.com/VHHJ5.jpg

And since that is pretty much the exact opposite of the thing you're talking about, do stop referring to it as a bust. As has been mentioned, you're free to keep drawing parallels to any number of damaged statues from antiquity but you're still going to be wrong and fail art history because no, they weren't carved that way in the first place.

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 07:53 PM

It kind of doesn't matter how they were carved in the first place. The Dead Island statue is a nod to the statues as we know them today. That's the joke. Or "joke", in case you didn't find it funny.

-Tom

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 07:56 PM

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 07:59 PM

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 08:02 PM

The joke was "sexy zombie booobs hurrrr! Would you?!? hurrr!"

Pogo

01-16-2013, 08:15 PM

I don't necessarily disagree. But it's clear that the joke they were trying to make is to invoke classical statues like the one I posted upthread. It doesn't matter one whit that the statues were damaged before Deep Silver attempted the joke.

-Tom

"Which also objectify women — and sometimes even men — by reducing them to the aesthetic appeal of specific isolated parts."

It matters if one of your defenses of the torso's objectification of the female body is to draw a parallel by stating the Romans' objectified women, which is not at all what they were doing.

We’re capable of making our own choices about what’s offensive, and if we feel something is offensive to us personally, we should not buy it rather than decry it as socially harmful. I’m pretty sure you don’t want to go down that road. Not today.

Yeah, we do, and Slainte posted why, succinctly.

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 08:18 PM

We’re capable of making our own choices about what’s offensive, and if we feel something is offensive to us personally, we should not buy it rather than decry it as socially harmful. I’m pretty sure you don’t want to go down that road. Not today.

Hang on. If you think something is socially harmful pretty much the only moral response is to decry it. That's the entire basis of a society.

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 08:19 PM

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 08:24 PM

Pogo was quoting something I wrote on the front page, but was apparently in too much of a hurry to use the quote tags, so he used the italics tags. :)

Pogo, do you feel horror movies are "socially harmful"?

-Tom

What's your opinion on snuff films then? How about drug abuse? Videos declaring homesexuality to be evil?

Ignore it and it will go away?

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 08:26 PM

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 08:35 PM

Mrenda, I'd rather talk about the horror movie parallel, because I think it's an important one. But in the interest of good faith discussion, I'll answer your questions in order.

That murder is illegal,

So society implements restrictions on something that is socially harmful. Society decries murder.

that addiction should be treated,

Society acts to help those suffering from something that is socially harmful. Society decries drug abuse.

and that idiots are free to make whatever videos they want.

Here you didn't answer what the response is to it, merely that they are free to do it. I would decry such socially harmful videos.

And you didn't respond to the main line of my questioning, whether society has a duty to respond to socially harmful occurrences or whether they should be ignored.

And the implication of your argument seems to be that the company are being denied their freedom to make and sell their model. Which isn't the case at all. They are of course free to make and sell it, they decided that they had made an error in commissioning it after the public pointed out the problems with it. I'm sure if they thought it was a good thing they'd still be offering it for sale, which of course is a possibility.

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 08:43 PM

And you didn't respond to the main line of my questioning, whether society has a duty to respond to socially harmful occurrences or whether they should be ignored.

Sorry, but I had no idea that's what you were asking. But I agree with you that if something is demonstrated to be socially harmful, society -- and governments -- can and often should react. Pogo implied that he and Slaithe Mhathe feel the Dead Island bust is "socially harmful". So I'd like to talk about whether that applies to horror movies.

And the implication of your argument seems to be that the company are being denied their freedom to make and sell their model.

I'm not sure how you get that from anything I've written, but you're introducing an argument I'm not making.

-Tom

Universal Leader

01-16-2013, 08:44 PM

They're not zombie boobs. They're dismembered woman boobs. If that's the joke, it's fucking sick.

garin

01-16-2013, 08:48 PM

What is this, then?
I think the US-flag bikini version is for Australia, weirdly enough.

(Or it might actually be for Austria-- I'd assumed that was a mistake)

Pogo

01-16-2013, 08:54 PM

Pogo, do you feel horror movies are "socially harmful"?

-Tom

That's a bit too broad a question, with the general answer being no. Reactions to provocative horror themes are all over the place, so it really requires context. If I think people are quick to miss the point of something because the work is doing a terrible job of communicating its ideas, then I think it's just a bad body of work and I'm going to either insist that people don't see it, or try to explain to them what the point was.

It's really tough to tread a good line of sarcasm when it comes to the objectification of women in videogames. It seems you have to be ludicrous (Saints Row 3) to get across the point that modern tropes are played out, otherwise you fall into the trap of hiding the subtlety with the Hollywood mundane (Far Cry 3), or beating you over the head with its melodrama (Tomb Raider's latest trailer).

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 09:07 PM

That's a bit too broad a question, with the general answer being no. Reactions to provocative horror themes are all over the place, so it really requires context. If I think people are quick to miss the point of something because the work is doing a terrible job of communicating its ideas, then I think it's just a bad body of work and I'm going to either insist that people don't see it, or try to explain to them what the point was.

Am I reading too much into your use of the word "insist"? Generally, when I see a trashy movie, my reaction is to be dismissive of it.

But given that you concede that horror movies aren't socially harmful, my next question is naturally why do you feel that stupid torso joke is socially harmful? Why do you feel it should be treated any differently than a bad horror movie? Because unless I'm misreading you, your post above says you want to "decry it as socially harmful".

It's really tough to tread a good line of sarcasm when it comes to the objectification of women in videogames. It seems you have to be ludicrous (Saints Row 3) to get across the point that modern tropes are played out, otherwise you fall into the trap of hiding the subtlety with the Hollywood mundane (Far Cry 3), or beating you over the head with its melodrama (Tomb Raider's latest trailer).

Well put, Pogo. But I'd just like to reiterate what I wrote on the front page: an important theme of the zombie mythology is the objectification of flesh. I'm not sure that statue makes the point with any sort of nuance or even value, but I do feel it's a significant element of what makes Dead Island a good game.

-Tom

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 09:17 PM

I'm not sure how you get that from anything I've written, but you're introducing an argument I'm not making.

-Tom

You're right. You don't even go that far.

We’re capable of making our own choices about what’s offensive, and if we feel something is offensive to us personally, we should not buy it rather than decry it as socially harmful. I’m pretty sure you don’t want to go down that road. Not today.

The implication you're making is that people are conflating offensive and socially harmful. The standard you're bringing to that is that it's your opinion that it's merely offensive, and it's your opinion that it's not socially harmful. Following from that then it's logical to assume that you see people as being insincere when they say the model is socially harmful and are doing so for petty reasons or spite, etc.

I started at the point where you have a problem with people saying things are socially harmful. If something is socially harmful it's a moral and dutiful society that acts. However you said "we should not buy it rather than..." with the implication that people are acting unduly by going further than "not buy[ing] it" and it's an undue action that restricts others.

Mrenda

01-16-2013, 09:26 PM

Well put, Pogo. But I'd just like to reiterate what I wrote on the front page: an important theme of the zombie mythology is the objectification of flesh. I'm not sure that statue makes the point with any sort of nuance or even value, but I do feel it's a significant element of what makes Dead Island a good game.

-Tom

I would have said that the main theme of the zombie mythology is the complete opposite. That zombie stories have always been about the loss of and the struggle to continue what it is that makes us human. The objectification of flesh is only a rhetorical device used to elicit that question.

And here the objectification is by showing boobs surrounded by gore. The only question I can see asked by showing inflated and sexualised breasts is "Are they still hot?"

Tom Chick

01-16-2013, 09:30 PM

I'm not following you Mrenda. But I think your distinction between "offensive" and "socially harmful" is important. I will freely grant that the Dead Island torso is offensive to some people. As are many many horror movies. And supposed works of art, if we want to invoke stuff like Cerrano's Piss Christ and the Guernica and Stravinksy's Rite of Spring.

And if you feel that way about the collector's edition of Dead Island, if you find it offensive, don't buy it. Furthermore, complain all you want about how it's gross (I agree), how it objectifies women (I agree), and how there are a lot of stupid videogames that alienate women (I agree). But in response to your complaint, I would point out that it's part of an established tradition, an enduring genre across many different media, and I feel there's no reason videogames should steer clear of that tradition, of that genre. You're doing the same thing that people do when they protest gory horror movies, offensive lyrics in rap music, or violence in videogames.

What I don't grant is that it's socially harmful, although that's a discussion I would like to have with anyone who feels that it is.

-Tom

Pogo

01-16-2013, 09:39 PM

Am I reading too much into your use of the word "insist"? Generally, when I see a trashy movie, my reaction is to be dismissive of it.

I'm very forward with people when they say they really liked a movie or game that I found to be atrocious.

But given that you concede that horror movies aren't socially harmful, my next question is naturally why do you feel that stupid torso joke is socially harmful? Why do you feel it should be treated any differently than a bad horror movie? Because unless I'm misreading you, your post above says you want to "decry it as socially harmful".

That has to do with the crux of Slainte's post, which I agree with, that video games still have a long way to go to break out of a lot of preconceived social notions. I'm sure there is a group of horror movie buffs out there who roll their eyes at the fact that there are half a dozen Saws and Final Destinations out there (not that I'm drawing any similarities between those). Pedantry is part of it, like how I'm firmly in the camp that knows that 28 Days Later is a zombie movie even though zombie aficionados stick to the Romero Requirement.

Another part of this is that it's much easier to show someone a 90 minute horror movie (or watch one yourself) and then start analyzing the meanings behind its symbols and breaking down its themes. Unfortunately I can't take Dead Island or Lead 4 Dead and do the same, and I certainly can't show someone Far Cry 3's midgame sex scene and try to explain how this is a game that is trying to play with expectations and the meta commentary of playing first person. And I'm really sad that I can't do that with Bioshock 1, either. To explain those two it would be far easier for me to just... link to Prodigy's Smack My Bitch Up music video, I suppose.

Well put, Pogo. But I'd just like to reiterate what I wrote on the front page: an important theme of the zombie mythology is the objectification of flesh. I'm not sure that statue makes the point with any sort of nuance or even value, but I do feel it's a significant element of what makes Dead Island a good game.

-Tom

Sure, but the value of it, in context for the community and hobby of gaming, is what is ultimately being argued. If the attempt was to mock a revered Roman statue (and it seems at this point that's accurate and confirmed by the PR), then it's done so badly. On the flipside, maybe it's so god damn brilliant that anyone who sees it is immediately hit with the weight of what it is they're looking at, but I don't think it's doing so for the same reasons a good zombie movie does it. The sexuality of the grotesque is in the biting and the taste, in particular the intimacy of the mouth to the neck (a brilliant riff itself on Dracula's mode of "infection"). I don't think the bikini-torso is doing a good job at communicating its meta commentary, possibly because its designers didn't think about it nearly as much as you or I have.

If they had some way to defend it that resembled the type of thought others have put into it, I actually think that would have been preferable to them just saying "I'm sorry guys" and pulling the product (or concept, I'm not sure they've manufactured these en masse yet). Better yet, they could have made a nipple-less carbon copy of a headless Aphrodite statue and thrown blood on its stumps. I don't know if that would have changed anything but at least the message would have been clearer and less of a tacky attempt at pop cultural zing merchandise.

But in response to your complaint, I would point out that it's part of an established tradition, an enduring genre across many different media, and I feel there's no reason videogames should steer clear of that tradition, of that genre. You're doing the same thing that people do when they protest gory horror movies, offensive lyrics in rap music, or violence in videogames.

I protest the latter 3 when they're done badly, like lens flare filters in Photoshops or too much bloom in a fantasy game. The problem with established tradition in video games is that this is a hobby capable of evoking just as strong, or even stronger, emotions and themes than is possible in movies. I want to be able to say "sure I play videogames" without someone coming back to me with "oh like, Mario and first person shooters?" If I have to wade through a bunch of preconceived notions elicited by mainstream media smearing of Grand Theft Auto or teenagers screaming racist shit through headsets, then my ability to explain the wondrous world of Minecraft is going to be hampered. This isn't restricted to video game media, of course, but I care enough about gaming to try to stamp my point in when I can and maybe change one mind at a time.

Razgon

01-16-2013, 11:22 PM

Nice discussion - Its a good thing and I hope the same kind of discussions can be brought out to the general public as well, because its needed.
Otherwise, what people see when they look in on the gamer culture are things like this - "Eww, why are gamers into gore porn?".

I do believe this is a good example though of how the backlash of the internet gamer culture can be used for something positive, i.e. criticism within their own culture leading to change or at the very least, debate.

To my mind, the bust isn't harmful to society as has been debated upthread, its just offensive and maybe harmful to a subset of society, namely gamers. While I don't have any links to studies, I do believe its been proven that exposure to something over and over can numb, as for instance how much we can tolerate without finding it icky.
That would probably also explain why someone like the developers here, who have been kneedeep and murder, zombies and violence for a few years have a different threshold for whats okay than many others.

Its probably being debated elsewhere here, but with Obama's recent decree (Is that the right word?) that the CDC have to look into games, gamers and the effect of violence in videogames on the people who play them, its probably worth noting that PR stunts like this one does not make us look too good.

Sorry, no coffee yet, and I seem to be rambling - Anyways, I just wanted to join a healthy discussion and give my own thoughts on it!

Slainte Mhath

01-17-2013, 06:42 AM

Tom,

I don't think your parallel between horror movies and this promotional piece is valid. If you want to draw a parallel between horror movies and the Dead Island game (or zombie games in general) than certainly, I can see that. However, nobody is arguing that Dead Island is offensive or socially harmful. Rather, let's pretend for one moment that a new zombie movie set on an island resort came out this Halloween, and as part of the promotional campaign for the movie the studio distributed these exact promotional pieces to moviegoers at the premiers in various cities. Do you think there would be no social outcry? Do you think that the media would not run with the story? Do you think that the Hollywood horror industry would not immediately condemn the promotion in an effort to save face? Such a thing would never fly in the movie industry, so why is it OK in the video games industry?

Deep Silver and others can claim all day long that this was a joke piece meant to riff on Venus De Milo or whatever, but the fact remains that it was a bad joke in very poor taste made irresponsibly at a time when public scrutiny of the industry is at an all time high. You claim that you agree it's in poor taste, but that you see no social harm in it. I find that really surprising given your position within the industry. It should be obvious that the social harm here is to the very people and industry that Deep Silver claims to be serving with this promotional piece. As a writer and industry insider I would expect that you of all people would recognize the tenuous hold that video games have on media respectability. The hobby is still scorned by the vast majority of society as a whole, and struggles with image issues every time there is an event like the Sandy Hook tragedy. Despite billions in global sales the industry is still widely regarded as juvenile, misogynistic and immature. Where is the social harm? The social harm is in the damage done to the industry, once again painting everyone associated with it in a negative light and further setting back the goal of being accepted as mainstream media. That directly impacts you, me and everyone on this forum, and all for a stupid piece of garbage pack in that should never have been green lit for production.

To return to the horror movie parallel : Horror movies struggled for many years to achieve respectable mainstream status in Hollywood and in media in general. These days they are a respected and multi-billion dollar part of the movie industry, and there is no denying their appeal across all segments of society. If video games want to achieve that same status, the industry needs to grow up and stop shooting themselves in the foot with ridiculous garbage like the Riptide torso.

Two Sheds

01-17-2013, 07:03 AM

Also, in general, "other media in the genre have done puerile, misogynistic stuff for ages so Dead Island should be able to" doesn't hold much water. Maybe the conflation of female sexuality and violence and the reduction of women to brutalized (yet still hot!) pieces of meat is a time-honored horror movie trope. I mean, terrific. These themes have been rightly criticized in film as regressive and anti-women. "It has existed before" is not, and never has been, a good excuse for anything offensive. Games don't need to make all of the mistakes that movies did, and they certainly don't get a pass for them. And yes, a lot of art is offensive, but its existence always has to be validated by a point. There is no point here. Even if I take everything Tom and Deep Silver would argue about their motivations as truth--which I think is being very generous--there's still no point here beyond ticking off a box on the Big List of Zombie Movie Tropes. Hooray! Now think harder than a teenager, and remember we're in 2013!

Honestly, if the best that comes to pass here is that "other publishers [get] cold feet about the intersection of horror and sexuality," this is a win. If future publishers think twice about the message they're sending with stunts like this, that's a good thing. By all means, publishers, be brave! But as Tom would point out, this is well-trodden ground and nothing new, and as the rest of us would point out it is misogynistic and regressive and juvenile and has nothing of value to say. Deep Silver isn't brave; they're just stupid.

Sinij

01-17-2013, 10:34 AM

What's your opinion on snuff films then?

Zombie girls don't say no to any guy with brains.

Sinij

01-17-2013, 10:52 AM

What people see when they look in on the gamer culture are things like this - "Eww, why are gamers into gore porn?"

People are into a lot of different things, I am sure some people somewhere are into gore porn, while others are into furrydom or magic ponies.

As a society, should we let them indulge in their abnormal but otherwise harmless behavior or should we try to correct them in one or another way?

Tom Chick

01-17-2013, 06:59 PM

Rather, let's pretend for one moment that a new zombie movie set on an island resort came out this Halloween, and as part of the promotional campaign for the movie the studio distributed these exact promotional pieces to moviegoers at the premiers in various cities. Do you think there would be no social outcry? Do you think that the media would not run with the story? Do you think that the Hollywood horror industry would not immediately condemn the promotion in an effort to save face? Such a thing would never fly in the movie industry, so why is it OK in the video games industry?

I don't know how movie promotional doo-dads work, but it's one thing to foist an icky statue on an unsuspecting moviegoer. It's something else to sell a doo-dad to horror fans who might collect that stuff. And if you look at horror paraphernalia, you'll see that this torso is completely in line with what some horror fans collect.

Deep Silver and others can claim all day long that this was a joke piece meant to riff on Venus De Milo or whatever, but the fact remains that it was a bad joke in very poor taste made irresponsibly at a time when public scrutiny of the industry is at an all time high.

Excellent point. But I feel it's important to note that videogames have pretty much held up under that scrutiny, the NRA's desperate "what about those guys?" notwithstanding.

You claim that you agree it's in poor taste, but that you see no social harm in it. I find that really surprising given your position within the industry. It should be obvious that the social harm here is to the very people and industry that Deep Silver claims to be serving with this promotional piece.

It sounds to me like your definition of social harm is "something that makes videogames look bad to people who don't know any better". That's not at all what I'm talking about. It feels like you're moving the goal posts pretty dramatically. But I'm certainly willing to discuss your point.

As a writer and industry insider I would expect that you of all people would recognize the tenuous hold that video games have on media respectability. The hobby is still scorned by the vast majority of society as a whole, and struggles with image issues every time there is an event like the Sandy Hook tragedy. Despite billions in global sales the industry is still widely regarded as juvenile, misogynistic and immature. Where is the social harm? The social harm is in the damage done to the industry, once again painting everyone associated with it in a negative light and further setting back the goal of being accepted as mainstream media. That directly impacts you, me and everyone on this forum, and all for a stupid piece of garbage pack in that should never have been green lit for production.

So your argument is basically that videogaming isn't ready? That we can't have a gross extreme horror doo-dad? Really? Because our image is so frail and tenuous that it'll be scuttled and we'll go back to the days of Grand Theft Auto is about killing hookers?

I disagree, and I'm much more optimistic than you about the mainstream viability of videogaming these days. When Wayne LaPierre rails against videogames, he's going to grab whatever he can reach. Here's his speech (http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/21/nras-wayne-lapierres-press-conference-speech-in-full/). He singled out Bulletstorm, Splatterhouse, GTA, and Mortal Kombat. That's the kind of "ammunition" these guys are using these days, and they're almost all duds. We don't have to let guys like Wayne LaPierre and Jack Thompson dictate videogaming anymore. These days, pretty much every single 18-year-old entering the workforce and shaping entertainment for the coming decades has grown up with videogames, and the conversation is no longer that videogames are for kids. Basically, the battle is over. We're mainstream. We have as much room for controversial risky games (and tchotchkes) as Hollywood has for controversial risky movies.

To return to the horror movie parallel : Horror movies struggled for many years to achieve respectable mainstream status in Hollywood and in media in general. These days they are a respected and multi-billion dollar part of the movie industry, and there is no denying their appeal across all segments of society.

I think your timeline is incorrect. Horror movies may not have been called horror movies, but they're as established as Titus Andronicus, the Bible, and Oedipus Rex.

-Tom

garin

01-17-2013, 08:14 PM

I don't know how movie promotional doo-dads work, but it's one thing to foist an icky statue on an unsuspecting moviegoer. It's something else to sell a doo-dad to horror fans who might collect that stuff. And if you look at horror paraphernalia, you'll see that this torso is completely in line with what some horror fans collect.
"But Mom, he did it first!" is a weak defense. If there are horror collectibles that are similar (I haven't seen any this bad) then yes, they are problematic garbage too.

Leaving aside the wider context and the comparisons to horror movies, do you at least agree that the statue is disrepectful to women?

Tom Chick

01-18-2013, 12:59 AM

Garin, I was answering Slainte's question, not mounting a defense. If you want to dismiss horror memorabilia as "garbage", that's fine. It's not for you and I suspect you don't collect it. I don't either.

Leaving aside the wider context and the comparisons to horror movies, do you at least agree that the statue is disrepectful to women?

Well, yes, but with some caveats (http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2013/01/16/dead-island-or-bust-the-case-for-tasteless-horror-tchotchkes/).

-Tom

Teiman

01-18-2013, 01:09 AM

As a society, should we let them indulge in their abnormal but otherwise harmless behavior or should we try to correct them in one or another way?

Describing other people sexuality as "abnormal" is extremely paternalist. ***** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI) . We don't know everybody practices, so we don't know what is normal and what is not normal.
The world abnormal is loaded by prejudices. Who say abnormal is bad? maybe abnormal is good. This show a prejudice against doing things differently, that is disgusting.

What if normal is boring?, maybe people practicing normality are not having enough fun, maybe normal is wrong.

Or we can drop the whole "wrong" and "bad" to describe sexuality, and use "what works for you", "what puts you on", and judge sexuality only based on what hurts others, or hurts innocent people.

Sinij

01-18-2013, 06:52 AM

Teiman, morality or judgment do not enter definition of abnormality. You'd probably have a point if I said "morally reprehensible", but I very intentionally did not use such words. Anything that reduces Darwinian Fitness, in this context an unusual sexual behavior, is abnormal. Sexual/Sexualized activity isn't wrong or unethical just because it doesn't result in procreation, but it is abnormal.

My personal view on this - even if you consider charges against Dead Island valid, while they would demonstrate abnormality, they do not establish any kind of wrong doing. By failing to identify this distinction many people in this thread crossed into Minority Report pre-crime territory.

instant0

01-18-2013, 07:05 AM

The hotel I stayed at last night had a classical statue like the one Riptide attempts to emulate with a zombie twist... I did not see any protesters around it.

TheWombat

01-18-2013, 07:12 AM

The hotel I stayed at last night had a classical statue like the one Riptide attempts to emulate with a zombie twist... I did not see any protesters around it.

I think, though, that it's precisely the zombie twist that's at issue here. That, and context. Reproductions of classical art work in a hotel lobby are fundamentally different than game promo items, in intent and effect.

Though I will say that there have been some odd protests about just such classical works, such as putting covers on nudes at the Justice Department, etc. Which is, admittedly, very odd.

Teiman

01-18-2013, 07:29 AM

Well these arm-less statues where created with arms. Probably the arms where broken by a protest by religious mobs.

We can see these broken statues as early acts of "Decency Squads". The protestors already destroyed the statues about 2000 years ago.

Or more recently...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1326063/After-1700-years-Buddhas-fall-to-Taliban-dynamite.html

Or maybe where broken by simple vandalism, we will never know.

Two Sheds

01-18-2013, 07:41 AM

We don't know how they were broken. Probably just time. Venus de Milo was found in a buried niche in a ruined city 2000 years after it was carved. With fragments of at least one of the broken arms, as well. Arms and heads tend to break off of stone statues somewhat easily, simply because of weight and thinness of stone.

blah!

01-18-2013, 01:38 PM

If the Terminator tv show dvd box set came packaged with http://photos.summerglauwiki.com/albums/userpics/10003/SFX_Magazine_166_February_2008_2.jpg would the same people upset about the Dead Island statue be upset? Or is it just a blood thing? I mean, if the Dead Island statue had wires coming out of the stumps to show it was an android would that be better?

To me the issue seems to be people finding something distasteful, and instead of realizing that that's all it is, are trying to turn it into some moral issue by claiming it's socially harmful.

And why is it that people jump on this item, which only 8000 people ever would have seen, but have no problem gleefully ignoring things in the games they play on a daily basis? What's more socially harmful, this stupid torso, or the fact that the entire female cast of Mass Effect, including Edi the robot, look like super models? Or that Halo 4 turned Cortana into a fucking sex object? Or that women in Far Cry 3 are fucking dirt? Or that you could have sex with a prostitute, kill them, and then take your money back in GTA? Or that the new Cyperpunk trailer shows a sexy ass, perfect 10 android in her underwear, with her tits bulging out, on her knees, being dominated by a man with a gun to her head.

So apparently it's ok for a game that sells millions of copies to make any woman who doesn't look like Candice Swanepoel to feel like shit for the hundreds of hours they play the game, but the 8000 morons who would buy this stupid statue and hide it in their closet are damaging society?

Seriously? Stop the fucking hypocrisy! If you fucking nutless windbags were really all upset about misogyny in gaming you'd be up in arms every fucking day about just about every game you play...but you're not. You're complaining about this because it's an easy target, and you don't like it. Congratulations on choosing the least effective way to change anything, by attacking the low hanging fruit that in reality is probably one of the least socially damaging things you could bitch about in gaming.

/golfclap

Telefrog

01-18-2013, 01:59 PM

/golfclap back to you for missing all the threads right here on Qt3 about all the women in gaming issues that have come up.

"If you don't fight every instance of X, then you can't speak up now" arguments are dumb as hell.

Two Sheds

01-18-2013, 02:01 PM

Yeah I was going to argue, but I've read a bunch of things today that are equally stupid (though just barely), so I suppose if I don't rail against all of those as well I'm a hypocrite. I just don't have that kind of time.

Pogo

01-18-2013, 02:05 PM

And why is it that people jump on this item, which only 8000 people ever would have seen, but have no problem gleefully ignoring things in the games they play on a daily basis?

Fucking hell just stop with these strawmen already. People were already called out for making these inane assumptions. Not everyone that objects to this statue has to also start railing against a lot of the sexist and/or overt violence in the games they do or don't play.

Want to know the extent of what people actually think? Just ask them, like Tom asking to what extent horror movies may be socially damaging, if at all.

What's more socially harmful, this stupid torso, or the fact that the entire female cast of Mass Effect, including Edi the robot, look like super models? Or that Halo 4 turned Cortana into a fucking sex object? Or that women in Far Cry 3 are fucking dirt? Or that you could have sex with a prostitute, kill them, and then take your money back in GTA? Or that the new Cyperpunk trailer shows a sexy ass, perfect 10 android in her underwear, with her tits bulging out, on her knees, being dominated by a man with a gun to her head.

I know what's harmful to a discussion... assuming that these things don't bother people just because those people aren't explicitly stating so in a discussion about an example of something that isn't in your list.

So apparently it's ok for a game that sells millions of copies to make any woman who doesn't look like Candice Swanepoel to feel like shit for the hundreds of hours they play the game, but the 8000 morons who would buy this stupid statue and hide it in their closet are damaging society?

Seriously? Stop the fucking hypocrisy! If you fucking nutless windbags were really all upset about misogyny in gaming you'd be up in arms every fucking day about just about every game you play...but you're not.

Wow, you really, REALLY based your entire post upon an assumption and just ran with it?

Except you're wrong, because objections have been brought up for all of those games in their respective threads. These things have been discussed in Mass Effect threads, Tomb Raider threads, Saints Row threads... hell, go ahead and dig through the San Andreas thread and see if there isn't a healthy debate about the then-revolutionary concept of playing an African-American gangster in South Central L.A. and whether or not RockStar pulled it off.

Unless you're an alt, your join date of Jan 2012 tells me that you haven't been involved in 99% of the gaming threads on this forum, or read the opinions people who may no longer post here. You have a very small window of exposure, too small, to be making claims about what people have or have not spoken up about.

/golfclap

Yeah, I used to do this too when I used to make completely content-less posts after not actually understanding the walls of text people posted in healthy debate... just pat myself on the back and say to myself "HAR HAR HAR I GOT THOSE HYPOCRITES GOOD." Except you're the only one clapping.

Tom Chick

01-18-2013, 04:27 PM

JDSIDD

01-18-2013, 05:57 PM

Furthermore, complain all you want about how it's gross (I agree), how it objectifies women (I agree), and how there are a lot of stupid videogames that alienate women (I agree).

What I don't grant is that it's socially harmful, although that's a discussion I would like to have with anyone who feels that it is.

-Tom

Can something objectify women without being socially harmful, If by "socially harmful" we mean carrying the message that the objectification of women and demeaning of women is acceptable? These things have to have some effect even if it is on a minimal level, don't they? Seeing this sort of thing in conjunction with a thousand other comments or objects which are all relatively harmless by themselves probably has a cumulative effect, right?

Any harm it can do is relatively minor. You can argue that minor things add up. You can argue that this gets lumped in with a thousand other small things and a teenage boy ends up thinking that calling every girl a bitch is just fine. So where do we draw the line? If Piranha DD can have a scene where a severed head lands between two boobs so its last sight is of breasts than why can't we have a statue like this? If we can have a movie like I Spit on Your Grave with a horrible and unbearably long rape sequence why can't we have this statue?

I Spit on Your Grave is one of the few movies I find offensive and vile to the point of wishing it didn't exist. I've also heard the movie defended on the grounds that it depicts a vile and horrible act like rape in the manner it should be depicted. Tom's defense of the statue on the grounds that it is similar to a Roman statue is interesting to me. I hadn't thought of that when I saw it. So maybe there is some artistic merit? I doubt the creators were thinking any more deeply than, "this is so cool," but maybe they were.

Tom brought up "Piss Christ" which I remember being controversial when I was in high school. I thought it was dumb then and I think it's dumb now. I'm sure a lot of Christians saw it as socially harmful. From their point of view it probably is. Somebody stuck shit all over a picture of the Virgin Mary in a similar piece of artwork. Personally I don't see a lot of value in that kind of thing (to give some context, I'm an atheist) but the people creating it were trying to make a point and some people got that point. So it had value.

The old saying, "I disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it," seems to fit in pretty well here. Art, whether it offends or disgusts, can have a valid purpose. What you see is socially harmful may not be from all points of view. Even trash like I Spit on Your Grave or this statue can say something of meaning and thus has every right to be heard.

Also,the argument that people outside of gaming will see the statue and object is a weak one. The anti-gaming crowd is going to look for the worst thing they can find to hold up to show how awful we are. Worrying about giving them ammo for their arguments is pointless. As long as there is a segment of the gaming population that wants violent stuff (I do) they're going to have things to point to. The idea that we need to step on someone's freedom of speech because the outside world might not approve is weak. It won't serve us in the long run. It won't change any minds or make the haters think any better of us.

The thing is, we are good. Gaming has a lot of positives. It helps form social bonds, develop cognitive and problem solving skills and can provide positive interactions. There's more, but I don't think I need to sell gaming to a bunch of gamers. The point is that we have enough ammo to stand up to the people who want to scapegoat gaming as a cause of the world's problems. Ultimately they will lose the argument the same way people who demonized Rock and Roll, Comics, D&D, Rap and movies all lost.

I'm done rambling. I'll move along now.

Tom Chick

01-18-2013, 06:23 PM

Great post, Mr. SIDD. Thanks for that. And I'm glad you brought up I Spit on Your Grave. When I watched that movie, my overwhelming reaction was "Fuck you, Wes Craven. Just fuck you." And he didn't even direct it! I'm not sure I can distinguish between I Spit on Your Grave and Last House on the Left. They're disgusting and they make me feel disgusting for watching them.

But consider that they're basically aping Virgin Spring, which is an amazing movie about religion, gender, crime, justice, and revenge. It is the movie that trash like Death Wish and I Spit on Your Grave wishes it was. There is a good way and a bad way to tell provocative meaningful stories. I find that it's pretty easy to ignore the bad ways, especially if it means we occasionally get things like Virgin Spring (which I recommend), Irreversible (which I would only recommend selectively), and even A Serbian Story (which I would almost never recommend).

Also,the argument that people outside of gaming will see the statue and object is a weak one. The anti-gaming crowd is going to look for the worst thing they can find to hold up to show how awful we are. Worrying about giving them ammo for their arguments is pointless.

Exactly. In Wayne LaPierre's speech, in which he tried to deflect the issue from guns to videogames, he mentioned some of the usual suspects, but then focused on something I've never even heard of:

And here’s one: it’s called Kindergarten Killers. It’s been online for 10 years. How come my research department could find it and all of yours either couldn’t or didn’t want anyone to know you had found it?We shouldn't let guys like him drive the conversation and we certainly shouldn't let guys like him dictate what games we make, how we make them, or even how we market them.

The thing is, we are good. Gaming has a lot of positives. It helps form social bonds, develop cognitive and problem solving skills and can provide positive interactions. There's more, but I don't think I need to sell gaming to a bunch of gamers. The point is that we have enough ammo to stand up to the people who want to scapegoat gaming as a cause of the world's problems. Ultimately they will lose the argument the same way people who demonized Rock and Roll, Comics, D&D, Rap and movies all lost.

Very nice.

-Tom

Sinij

01-18-2013, 07:45 PM

Clearly, the underlying issue is that armless statue in the video game will unleash the hordes of patriarchal gamers on Sabine women everywhere.

Tom Chick

01-18-2013, 08:19 PM

So it turns out this issue isn't unique to videogames (http://www.vulture.com/2013/01/should-the-django-dolls-have-ever-existed.html). 19,000 people signed a petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/quentin-tarantino-weinstein-co-and-neca-d-jango-unchained-slave-dolls-stop-the-sale-of-django-unchained-slave-dolls) complaining about Django Unchained action figures. The petition reads, in part:

The trivailization depicted in these dolls further is makes a mockery of our ancestors bloodshed, strife, pain and suffering. Simply, these companies and entities are capitalizing off of the bloodshed and sufferings of African slaves. In return, these companies are giving nothing back the sufferings of the decendents of African slaves. Ask yourself, why aren't they offering 100% of the profits to go back to the families who are descendants of the African slaves brought here. Or why not give the profits to the African American communities across America who suffer from lack of resources and opportunity that disenfranchises our communities? What are these companies giving back to you, your family and community to strengthen positive growth and opportunity?

The Weinstein Company, who made action figures for Inglorious Basterds that included Nazis, says they're canceling the Django Unchained action figures.

-Tom

Oghier

01-19-2013, 07:25 AM

The old saying, "I disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it,"

I think that old saying is irrelevant. Nobody is arguing that Dead Island's devs lack the right to produce bloodied tits on a stick. I don't see anyone calling for government censorship. It's quite possible to believe that something is extremely offensive and to vent your opinion of it, without discussing any issues of "rights."

This borders on snuff-porn. It doesn't really bother me if people want to fill their heads with that garbage, but it does bother me when gaming companies shove it into public view. It's bad for the hobby's image. Moreover, for an industry that has a well deserved reputation for systemic misogyny, this reinforces one of gaming's worst traits.

I think is a bad idea, and I think the developers behind it are bad people. I'm disinclined to buy more of their products. That's not censorship. That's just the marketplace of ideas and the market for goods intersecting.

JDSIDD

01-19-2013, 08:41 AM

I think that old saying is irrelevant. Nobody is arguing that Dead Island's devs lack the right to produce bloodied tits on a stick. I don't see anyone calling for government censorship. It's quite possible to believe that something is extremely offensive and to vent your opinion of it, without discussing any issues of "rights."

This isn't about government censorship. This is about a vocal minority trying to shout something down. I'm saying that it can have merit even if we don't like it or are offended by it. But go ahead and vent. There's nothing wrong with a good discussion.

This borders on snuff-porn. It doesn't really bother me if people want to fill their heads with that garbage, but it does bother me when gaming companies shove it into public view. It's bad for the hobby's image. Moreover, for an industry that has a well deserved reputation for systemic misogyny, this reinforces one of gaming's worst traits.

I already addressed this. Worrying about our image is pointless. People who are willing to look at the good aspects of gaming are going to find more than enough of it. People who want to demonize us aren't going to be appeased because we shout down something like this.

I think is a bad idea, and I think the developers behind it are bad people. I'm disinclined to buy more of their products. That's not censorship. That's just the marketplace of ideas and the market for goods intersecting.

I've never met the developers. Are they bad people? Did they even commission this thing? Was it the publisher or some marketing company? I'd imagine there are people on the dev team who had no idea this thing was being made but I don't really know for sure. You should probably look into who exactly you need to focus on here.

The larger point is a good one, though. I'm going to buy the new Dead Island because I loved the first one. I'll be buying the regular edition, though. This statue is trash and I don't want it.

Murbella

01-19-2013, 09:22 AM

So the sequel to a gory, zombie killing game that takes place on a beach resort with many female characters wearing... beach appropriate clothing has a collector's edition extra that is similar? I can't say i'm surprised or up in arms. It is perhaps a bit silly, but then i think we've seen a lot worse.

Mostly it is a fitting extra.

I will likely wait for the game to drop to $20-30 though. I liked the first game, but not THAT much and i have a ton of games to play that i don't have time for already. Greenmangaming's price is kind of tempting though, assuming you can use one of the generic coupons on it, which you probably can.

Telefrog

01-24-2013, 07:40 PM

Sooooo... Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O29F-b9nWTY) of some gameplay.

intruder

01-25-2013, 12:46 AM

Hm that looks exactly like Dead Island right down to the GUI / animations.
Could be an expansion pack / DLC unless there is more than shown in the video.

Skipping it for now as I had enough "Dead Island" in the original game.

TurinTur

01-25-2013, 01:33 AM

Yeah, seems like an expansion. Maybe if it's cheap enough...

lordkosc

01-25-2013, 03:14 AM

Ummm its been super cheap , expansion pack priced already, lol...

I pre-ordered back in December when GMG had one of them crazy 35% off deals going on.

Order details
Date Dec. 2, 2012, 8:16 a.m.
Retailer: Green Man Gaming
Items bought
Dead Island Riptide $26.00

I am pretty excited for the game, as the combat was solid, the zombies were scary enough, I just hope the level design and missions are a bit better. :)

Teiman

01-25-2013, 03:29 AM

This video is ankward. Perhaps is a rushed video to show that have more than a controversial topic.

Slainte Mhath

01-25-2013, 06:51 AM

It sounds to me like your definition of social harm is "something that makes videogames look bad to people who don't know any better". That's not at all what I'm talking about. It feels like you're moving the goal posts pretty dramatically. But I'm certainly willing to discuss your point.

I'm not re-defining "social harm", I'm defining the context in which this particular promotional doo-dad is causing social harm. It's socially harmful not because of the horror elements, but the way the horror is mixed with sexuality to create an over all feel that is repulsive and misogynistic, and it's readily apparent that's what the creators intended. That would be bad enough if it were a movie prop or a Gentle Giant collectable figurine or something, but given it's direct connection to an industry struggling to break free of the image of immaturity, misogyny and violence in which much of society views it, this is doing even more harm than a Django figurine or a bloody movie prop.

So your argument is basically that videogaming isn't ready? That we can't have a gross extreme horror doo-dad? Really? Because our image is so frail and tenuous that it'll be scuttled and we'll go back to the days of Grand Theft Auto is about killing hookers?

YES. (see below)

I disagree, and I'm much more optimistic than you about the mainstream viability of videogaming these days. When Wayne LaPierre rails against videogames, he's going to grab whatever he can reach. Here's his speech (http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/21/nras-wayne-lapierres-press-conference-speech-in-full/). He singled out Bulletstorm, Splatterhouse, GTA, and Mortal Kombat. That's the kind of "ammunition" these guys are using these days, and they're almost all duds. We don't have to let guys like Wayne LaPierre and Jack Thompson dictate videogaming anymore. These days, pretty much every single 18-year-old entering the workforce and shaping entertainment for the coming decades has grown up with videogames, and the conversation is no longer that videogames are for kids. Basically, the battle is over. We're mainstream. We have as much room for controversial risky games (and tchotchkes) as Hollywood has for controversial risky movies.

I respect you Tom, and always value your opinions on the state of the industry, and I totally get what you're saying here. I agree that attacks by the NRA and idiots like LaPierre and Thompson are flimsy at best and carry little weight when it comes to damaging the industry as a whole. I also agree that as our current crop of 12-21 year olds age and enter the workforce and political sphere we'll see a paradigm shift in the way gaming is viewed. Where I disagree is about the current state of that world view. I think that perhaps your vantage point on this is a little too insular. In your world, surrounded by the industry, video games are mainstream and the battle is over. However in my world they have a long road ahead of them yet. Yes, they are a multi-billion dollar industry and commercials for video games are as pervasive as those for movies and music anymore. But in the office where I work, at the school my kids attend, in the organizations I volunteer for and in most of the social circles I, as a 40 year old father and husband, move in, video games are still regarded as kids stuff. They are seen as immature, overly violent and often either laughable or disgusting in the way they treat women and sex. The vast majority of the people in my life do not consider video games to be an appropriate activity for a responsible adult, and given that those same people represent a pretty decent cross-section of the adult population I feel comfortable in asserting that we are "not quite there yet" in terms of video game acceptance in society.

Then something like the Riptide promo happens, and we take another small step backwards on the path to that acceptance.

So yeah, I suppose the promo isn't socially harmful in a way that will warp young minds and cause kids to turn into serial killers. But it does have negative social impact on the way that average people view the industry we both love and want to see accepted into the mainstream, and that pisses me off because at the end of the day, there was no good reason this promo needed to exist.

Telefrog

01-25-2013, 07:06 AM

This video is ankward. Perhaps is a rushed video to show that have more than a controversial topic.

Aw, man! I liked your zoophilia post better.

Alistair

01-25-2013, 02:56 PM

Did this game not have prequel with a single soldier-like character and more of an emphasis on guns than melee... or which game was that?

Jinsai

04-22-2013, 01:38 PM

Has anyone gotten it running yet?

ibdoomed

04-22-2013, 02:13 PM

It still says I have 7 hours to go =(

Murbella

04-22-2013, 05:51 PM

Boo 3ish hours.

I wish these releases wouldn't be so late at night.

Maybe i will get in a little time before i need to go to sleep.

lordkosc

04-23-2013, 10:39 AM

Reporting in , combat feels a little smoother, graphics look good, story is so-so , but its a zombie game so :p

I picked the new character , John , he is good at punching things! He also can find a wolverine claw to wear! AND has a perk where he can heal himself by punching zombies, totally realistic! :)

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/541832243839868517/61CAA78FF62E6C5E8E <--- John @ character choice screen.

Or if you want you can import your Dead Island character to continue from where you left off, I am not sure how that works with leveling.

My new character started at level 15.

Murbella

04-23-2013, 04:35 PM

Played for about half hour.

I picked the new guy of course. I'm not sure I like him. He just has absolutely zero range, so I end up taking a lot more damage. Going to try high critical and the trait that heals when you critical. We will see though, but at this rate I might switch to the sword girl.

I ran in to one medium bug. In a certain scene you climb a ladder and then an event knocks you back. If you don't move forward fast enough. You get knocked back down the ladder in to a new locked off area. I had to reload to last checkpoint which thankfully put me in the right spot.

Tom Chick

04-23-2013, 06:23 PM

Or if you want you can import your Dead Island character to continue from where you left off, I am not sure how that works with leveling.

Just like the rest of the game. Dead Island has autoleveling, so if you import a character, it levels the zombies up. Which is a bit of a pain, frankly, since you don't have your inventory from the previous game. But I kind of like the added difficulty.

-Tom

JDSIDD

04-23-2013, 07:00 PM

I imported my sword girl from the first game. She came in at level 40 with all of her skills intact. I also got some fire knife thing from pre-ordering which is the best weapon I've found so far (about three hours). I think there are a lot more characters on screen at any given time than in the original. I don't remember getting swarmed by seven or eight zombies at one time before. That's a lot of fun and makes things a bit more challenging. I found myself throwing weapons and keeping my distance a lot more than I did in the first game. I also like that other survivors actually fight back now. Not effectively, but close enough.

Overall it seems like more of the same so far. Normally that would be a bad thing but I like Dead Island enough for it to be OK.

Murbella

04-23-2013, 08:24 PM

Grrr my storage npc keeps on trying to phase through the wall, ending up getting stuck so i can't use him every so often.

On the plus side, the uppercut for the new guy seems really good. Whether it compares to the damage bonus the other melee characters would (i think) receive when throwing their favored weapons, i don't know. Even getting the hang of the dodge system, i still miss the comforting range of an actual weapon.

One vs one, it certainly feels nice to uppercut a thug, dodge his big strike and repeat until he dies. I suppose you could do this with any weapon though really.

lordkosc

04-23-2013, 08:46 PM

Were the barfing dudes in the first game? They are a pain in the ass.

intruder

04-24-2013, 12:43 AM

Were the barfing dudes in the first game? They are a pain in the ass.

Yes at least in the sewers in the city.

wumpus

04-25-2013, 03:45 AM

http://www.gamespot.com/dead-island-riptide/reviews/dead-island-riptide-review-6407250/

I finished it tonight, this might be a fair review, though if you didn't play the first game, I'd bump it up to a 7 or 8.

What is actually different in this game versus the first Dead Island?

- I *think* there is a lot more water stuff in this one, water zombies, boats, and so forth? A handful of additional zombie types, the screamer (L4D inspired?), the wrestler (ditto?), etc.

- There's a fifth character who is a hand-to-hand expert, not exactly a stretch from the gun, sword, blunt, throw we already had.

- Somewhat different environments, all of the same tropical islands and related areas variety as the first game, though in some ways I liked the original environments more.

- A handful of new weapons, but I recognized most of them, including the mods, were generally the same.

- Way less human combat. Almost all zombies this time.

- But in terms of quests, gameplay, and such, it feels an awful lot like playing the first game.

Personally, I liked it, because the first person zombie bashing is some of the best I've seen to date, and combination of interesting environments to explore combined with a bit of the old ultra-violence and RPG levelling is right up my alley.

But it is completely fair to call this a cop-out and at best an expansion ... classic More Of The Same. Riptide is more like an expansion for Dead Island than a second installment.

I just happen to like the "same" here. :) I was happy to play through as the sword girl this time instead of the gun lady, and man, swords are sooooo much better versus zombies...

wumpus

04-25-2013, 03:53 AM

BTW, I found the sweet spot for sword lady is a machete with the paralyze mod. Very very fast for its damage output, and paralysis is absolute gold for the high end zombies like thugs and screamers. It stuns them so you can move to their backs and wail away on their heads for the headshot + from-the-back + critical bonuses.

The x2, x3, x4 XP limb sever bonus perks turn out to be a big deal for her too, since with a fast blade you'll be severing quite a bit naturally.

TurinTur

04-25-2013, 07:25 AM

How long is the game, wumpus?

scharmers

04-25-2013, 09:13 AM

serling

04-25-2013, 09:14 AM

How long is the game, wumpus?

I clocked around 15 hours. Didn't finish every side quest though. I think I was pretty far from it, actually.

lordkosc

04-25-2013, 12:45 PM

My interest in this went from "hey cool" to "pick up when it's $5 on Steam" just like that. I hated the jungle levels in the first game, and it sounds like there's lots of those. And I thought that the human enemies helped break the constant melee action up, and it sounds like there's less humans. And... if Techland wants to make an expansion pack, fine, don't charge me $40 for it. Capcom pulls that shit and it's not cool when they do it.

Yeah its definitely not worth $40, and I have to say the starting area in chapter 1 is horrible, I thought it was ok until around 2 hours in... I hate shanty towns, and zombie fighting in shanty towns is just about the most irritating thing ever. The boat stuff they added is pretty cool. Also I don't recall the first game doing this, but zombie seem to respawn in areas I literally cleaned out 3-4 minutes before. Very annoying, especially when carrying a engine to the boat. I am at 5 hours in, on chapter 3 now. I have done around 6-7 side quests. I am ready to go to a new area, lol.

Thanks to GMG magic I paid around $7 for this game after %deals and store credits and I'd say wait to get it <$10. It is fun co-op, I played with some randoms peeps earlier today. But playing solo is boring after awhile, and feels cheap as you can get attacked by ninja zombies that you can't see playing solo.