Justice, Karzai Style

[Scuzz]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/01/hamid-karzai-afghanistan_n_1123656.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl18|sec1_lnk3|117100


KABUL, Afghanistan -- Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday pardoned an Afghan woman serving a 12-year prison sentence for having sex out of wedlock after she was raped by a relative.

Karzai's office said in a statement that the woman and her attacker have agreed to marry. That would reverse an earlier decision by the 19-year-old woman, who had previously refused a judge's offer of freedom if she agreed to marry the rapist.

There are reasons why we will never be able "Americanize" Afghanistan anytime soon. We just don't see things the same way.

[W Wiley]

The world is full of ignorant hill people. http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=67583

[Scuzz]

The world is full of ignorant hill people. http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=67583


Agreed, but that only represents the actions of a church, not the thinking of an entire country.

[Chris Nahr]

It's also pretty remarkably retarded to equate the jailing of a rape victim unless she agrees to marry her attacker with a church's refusal to marry a mixed-race couple.

[Jason McCullough]

There are reasons why we will never be able "Americanize" Afghanistan anytime soon. We just don't see things the same way.

You couldn't "Americanize" 18th century America either. So?

[Miramon]

You couldn't "Americanize" 18th century America either. So?

We could with time travel, porn, and fast food, I'm pretty sure :)

[Flowers]

I promise to rape Hamid Karzai if I ever get the chance.

[Tim Partlett]

I think we can all agree that this kind of thing highlights some of the rotten values at the heart of Afghani society. They are also not unique in that. The question it raises is how do we, as more "rights aware" people, help improve the lot of the average Afghan, Saudi, Congolese, Papua New Guinean, etc. Do we:

1. Invade them and install a puppet government to enforce our values.
2. Enact staggered sanctions until they get up to our level.
3. Embarrass them into change with worldwide media condemnation.
4. Attempt to improve their value system by explaining our subjectively better system through a theistic, tribal or cultural language they can understand, e.g. "the Golden Rule."

[Flowers]

I told you. We kidnap and sexually assault the men that they respect. Hamid Karzai would get raped and hard. Kim Jong Il would have to blow some fursuits in a dungeon. And Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud should be forced to live for three weeks as a teenage black prostitute named "Peppers."

I have thought about this a lot. I have considered a lot of alternatives. Demeaning yet whimsical sexual violence meant to undermine a dictator's male privilege is the most cost effective and geopolitically sound option. A nation can go to war with another over the abduction and murder of its leader. It can't really say much if the same leader simply reappears three weeks later covered in lipstick and smelling like dicks.

[extarbags]

I think we can all agree that this kind of thing highlights some of the rotten values at the heart of Afghani society. They are also not unique in that. The question it raises is how do we, as more "rights aware" people, help improve the lot of the average Afghan, Saudi, Congolese, Papua New Guinean, etc. Do we:

1. Invade them and install a puppet government to enforce our values.
2. Enact staggered sanctions until they get up to our level.
3. Embarrass them into change with worldwide media condemnation.
4. Attempt to improve their value system by explaining our subjectively better system through a theistic, tribal or cultural language they can understand, e.g. "the Golden Rule."

Well four obviously wouldn't work, three doesn't work, two hasn't worked, and as for one... well, the incident that started this thread comes to us from a contry where we did that, so there you have it.

I think what might have a shot at working is just going in full force and very aggressively exporting Western culture to these places. I bet a plan to subsidize an Xbox and an HDTV for every Afghan household would go farther than any of these ridiculous wars.

And not just that, I want them to have all the games for the Xbox, and free satellite TV with six hundred channels, a hundred of which are porn. I want them to have everything we have and more, all for free. Even the bad stuff; I want them to eat at McDonald's and watch Two and a Half Men and shop at Wal-Mart and listen to Nickelback, if that's what they like, as indeed so many Americans inexplicably do. They should have it all, and we should give it all to them if only to show them that there are ways in this world to get their rocks off besides enforcing their idiotic medieval brand of justice.

Will this infect them with our sense of crass commercialism and trade one set of problems for another? Yes, absolutely. And I don't care, because on our worst, trashiest days, we don't force women who have been raped to choose between rotting in prison and continuing to be raped on a daily basis by the same guy.

[CLWheeljack]

I think what might have a shot at working is just going in full force and very aggressively exporting Western culture to these places. I bet a plan to subsidize an Xbox and an HDTV for every Afghan household would go farther than any of these ridiculous wars.


Well, you'd have to get them electricity first, which is sort of part of the bigger problem.

[Jason McCullough]

I think we can all agree that this kind of thing highlights some of the rotten values at the heart of Afghani society. They are also not unique in that. The question it raises is how do we, as more "rights aware" people, help improve the lot of the average Afghan, Saudi, Congolese, Papua New Guinean, etc. Do we:

.....

5: Help them industrialize through an export-heavy economy that slowly increases its education level. Eventually it'll take care of itself, just like every other country it's worked on.

[Tim Partlett]

You mean like 4th highest GDP India (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15997648)? I'm not starting a fight. You are right that development is part of the problem, but I don't think it's the only solution. With enough money it's easy to insulate your country from external pressure on human rights, like in Saudi Arabia.

I mean when it comes to women's rights, it's clear that women in the workforce improves the wealth of the whole population. But how do you convince people of that? Do they accept before its been shown to them, or only afterwards when it's been forced upon them by necessity and they see the benefits, like WW1 for Britain and Iraq war for Iran.

I think it's a combination of things. For example, embarrassing the country through global media has forced rulers to step in and change verdicts. Even here Karzai has had to do something even if his act is still medieval in its atrocity. At the very least this forces an internal debate, which coupled with other changes, like education, can lead to improvements.

I'm all for sanctions too. I don't see why other countries should be able to out-compete mine by treating its own workers like shit. I think the WTO should allow nations to sanction those that don't meet the standards of human rights, even to the damage they do the environment. Why should Germany treat products made by empowered Danes through clean energy, as the same as those made by virtual slaves in filthy, polluting factories.

[Scuzz]

5: Help them industrialize through an export-heavy economy that slowly increases its education level. Eventually it'll take care of itself, just like every other country it's worked on.


But aren't we paying them not to grow poppies?

[Lh'owon]

I strongly believe that part of the problem is the West's habit of viewing such societies, in that region strongly Muslim societies, as uniform in their acceptance of the egregious values they enforce, as if those wielding the power represent the society as a whole. It's not trivial at all to point out that whenever you get cases such as this - inevitably a vulnerable woman getting royally fucked over by despicable men - the woman never agrees with what the men are doing.

Which tells us that Muslim societies (it would be lovely if that was a contradiction in terms, but you work with what you've got), even the most tribal and backward such as in Afghanistan, are not as homogeneous as they are often portrayed. Do they have any terrible values that are largely accepted by all segments of society? No doubt, they are strongly Muslim, so women are getting shafted one way or another. Is it helpful to say all the 'values' enforced by the men who wield power are representative of the society at large? Profoundly not.

Which doesn't leave us with any easy answers of course. Breaking a Patriarchy's grip on a society is no mean feat. But it does leave us room, however narrow, to support the crap out of the brave individuals and groups within the country who speak out against such injustices and to support their political ambitions, because social change can have a surprising force, especially when it has a profoundly human, rather than politically partisan face.

Because virtually no woman, no matter how indoctrinated, thinks she should be punished for being raped, or be made to marry her rapist.

[Jason McCullough]

But aren't we paying them not to grow poppies?

Ironically counterproductive, isn't it?

[Jason McCullough]

You mean like 4th highest GDP India (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-15997648)?

That's just because their population so high, their income and educational levels are still low. They'll get over it eventually; it takes a few generations after decent education until people shake off medevial attitudes. Birth control was illegal in the US until the 1960s!


I'm all for sanctions too. I don't see why other countries should be able to out-compete mine by treating its own workers like shit. I think the WTO should allow nations to sanction those that don't meet the standards of human rights, even to the damage they do the environment. Why should Germany treat products made by empowered Danes through clean energy, as the same as those made by virtual slaves in filthy, polluting factories.

I don't really have a coherent opinion on this subject anymore.

[Aeon221]

5: Help them industrialize through an export-heavy economy that slowly increases its education level. Eventually it'll take care of itself, just like every other country it's worked on.

The cheaper, easier and more intelligent solution is the one they're already banking on.

Namely, educating everyone they can get their hands on and hoping those people go somewhere else to find a job (and send home the money). Not surprisingly, human capital export via migration and paid for with remittances is one of the faster and more durable earners out there.

You don't need an up to date transit network, electricity, decent regulations or an educated workforce to set up a rudimentary school and start sending off workers to, say, Dubai.

Shit, if Poland is any guide Afghanistan should be setting up HVAC repair and plumbing schools.


And ignoring the whole raft of problems that would prevent even a shambolic industry from getting going (everything from security to the shit I've already listed), there's the more basic problem that they'd be competing against literally every other country in the world. Because, uh, the export focused strategy is pretty much the default one right now for everyone trying to save their way out of recession.

[Flowers]

How about just teach all the women how to poison their husbands. I like people, and I don't think the government should kill them, but if a woman wants to murder her rapist with her bare hands for shits and giggles, I really don't have a problem with it. That's why I didn't really give a shit when Michael Jackson died and don't understand why people want to lock up Conrad Murray. If the worst thing that happens when he fucks up at work is that he accidentally euthanizes an inveterate child molestor, that is like an auto mechanic mistakenly replacing the wrong belt on your car and when you try to drive it home World Peace starts pouring out from under the hood. But I digress, I know that my wife's working knowledge of toxicology has kept me in line at least a few times. I highly doubt CSI Jalalabad is half as good as their CBS show makes them look.

[JeffL]

Birth control was illegal in the US until the 1960s!


What? First human trials of the pill provided first results in humans in 1955. First true clinical trials were in 1956, and there were some problems with side effects of that first formulation. It was marketed for menstrual problems in 1959 because it did not have FDA approval as a birth control pill. When they got FDA approval in the early 60s, about a dozen drug companies started working on their own versions (Searle got the first FDA approval.) Even with the scare that came from Thalidomide, which made a lot of women scared of any kind of drug related to contraception, millions of American women were taking birth control pills within a couple of years of FDA approval, even with reports of some women dying of blood clots (the pill back then wasn't all that safe.)

There were indeed some states that "banned" birth control yet even before the pill condoms were sold everywhere, so the ban was a lot like saying certain forms of sex are illegal in some states, i.e. the laws are on the books and every once in a blue moon you see some weird prosecution but the follow up is that it almost never comes to anything. In 1951 Sanger had been pretty successful at getting Planned Parenthoods opened across the country, and in fact she was able to get a grant in 1951 to get funds for Pincus who invented the first birth control.

(Derail - sorry.)

[Jason McCullough]

Sorry, got the decade wrong, and meant contraceptives (http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=18&compID=53). Federal ban on birth control was lifted in 1938, Supreme Court struck down remaining state laws in 1965 (which is what I was thinking of), based on the 1961 arrest in Connecticut (http://yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1982/6/82.06.03.x.html) of people running a birth control clinic.

[Jason McCullough]

The cheaper, easier and more intelligent solution is the one they're already banking on.

Namely, educating everyone they can get their hands on and hoping those people go somewhere else to find a job (and send home the money). Not surprisingly, human capital export via migration and paid for with remittances is one of the faster and more durable earners out there.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Isn't this what the Phillipines do (for no apparent reason)?


And ignoring the whole raft of problems that would prevent even a shambolic industry from getting going (everything from security to the shit I've already listed), there's the more basic problem that they'd be competing against literally every other country in the world. Because, uh, the export focused strategy is pretty much the default one right now for everyone trying to save their way out of recession.

They'd only be competing with the countries in the very, very bottom of the export cheap-labor segment, like Cambodia. China is already far beyond that. Correct that the transport costs would probably be prohibitive though.

[Tim Partlett]

That's just because their population so high, their income and educational levels are still low. They'll get over it eventually; it takes a few generations after decent education until people shake off medevial attitudes. Birth control was illegal in the US until the 1960s!

I didn't want to Godwin the argument, but you insist. If industrialisation is the only answer we need, then how long would we have had to wait for the Germans in 1939, already on a par with the best in the world, to come to their senses?

[Malathor]

Depressing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16014368).

[Martin Guerre]

What are the DV numbers like for christian fundies?

[Jason McCullough]

I didn't want to Godwin the argument, but you insist. If industrialisation is the only answer we need, then how long would we have had to wait for the Germans in 1939, already on a par with the best in the world, to come to their senses?

Sometimes Godwin is on-target. My theory is that long periods of really high unemployment or chaos are really, really dangerous, regardless of how good a nation is doing otherwise. Germany and Japan weren't unusual for their social attitudes at the time; they just had the worst economies/weakest institutions/messiest politics, so they went under first. If US 25% unemployment had persisted through FDR's first term it's entirely possible Huey Long or Lindberg would have won the presidency, which IMHO would end at a US military dictatorship, and god knows what after that.

If things get bad enough, crazy motherfuckers will take power either legitimately or by coup, and people won't complain about as long as they fix the damn economy. Or it'll be too late to complain because you don't have a democracy anymore.

[Tim Partlett]

But it wasn't just the Nazis committing atrocities while the population sat back and said "oh well at least the trains run on time." Antisemitism was entrenched in the population. The public were complicit in the crimes. Maybe some Germans were shocked at how far the Nazis took it, but the values that allowed the crimes were the values of the country. There were examples of antisemitic crimes in Germany far worse than the one detailed above long before Hitler or the economic collapse that provoked his rise to power.

I agree with you that industrialisation and wealth can bring about changes in attitude, but I don't think it is the only way, nor can it be said that it has brought about changes in attitudes, on its own, in every country it has been established in. Germany didn't learn to treat every citizen as equal because of industrialisation, but because it was defeated, and its people shamed and, to some extent, indoctrinated. The success with which Germany eradicated antisemitism after the war can be easily seen when visiting other countries which didn't have the same Western driven changes in value... like former East Germany.

[Jason McCullough]

Antisemitism was "entrenched in the population" of France, too; everything I've read talks of surprise that it was Germany that did mass murder instead of France, where apparently anti-semitism was much more severe (home of the Dreyfus affair, remember). The difference was they didn't have a government of pure evil elected after years of economic suffering. Here's a random (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1601621) interesting paper.

Not to discount the appalling behavior of German citizens in the period, but by my readnig the dominant difference between Germany and the other industrial powers at the time wasn't social attitudes as much as how society responded to the varying levels of shocks they received.

[Tim Partlett]

Why would the French do anything if someone else would do the job for them? Plenty of French, and especially the government, went to great lengths to identify the Jews in their community.

But again, are you arguing that it was industrialisation that rid France of its antisemitism?

[Jason McCullough]

I'm talking about pre-WW2 France, where anti-semitism was arguably stronger than it was in Germany. If France had got a crazy government like the Germans no telling what would have happened.


But again, are you arguing that it was industrialisation that rid France of its antisemitism?

To summarize again:

Anti-semitism doesn't fit much of any model because it collapsed overnight in the west after WW2 due to the Holocaust, and it being the West's enemies doing it. Industrial Germany doesn't fit an education model because their society more or less totally collapsed under economic pressure. That France was as much or more anti-semitic and considered more likely in the pre-war period to do something of the sort than Germany indicates to me it wasn't something unique in the German character.

[Tim Partlett]

Sounds like "special pleading" :).


That France was as much or more anti-semitic and considered more likely in the pre-war period to do something of the sort than Germany indicates to me it wasn't something unique in the German character.

Really? Considered by whom?

Antisemitism, and the crimes associated with it, existed throughout Europe, and still does to some extent, with or without an accompanying economic collapse. These countries, like France and Germany, were strongly industrialised nations with far better education systems than Afghanistan has today, and yet this hatred and inhumanity existed.

You said industrialisation had cured these kinds of attitudes in every country it has occurred in, yet Europe and antisemitism is absolute proof of the opposite.

I think that industrialisation and education is a key part in the development of respect for human rights, but it isn't a cure-all. I'm also not sure, going back to the original subject I brought up of "what we can do about crimes like Karzai's", how you intend us to industrialise countries like Afganistan?

[Murbella]

That's just because their population so high, their income and educational levels are still low. They'll get over it eventually; it takes a few generations after decent education until people shake off medevial attitudes. Birth control was illegal in the US until the 1960s!



I don't really have a coherent opinion on this subject anymore.

Apparently a lot of people in the usa didn't get this memo.

[Jason McCullough]

I want to say it was in the pre-war review section of Hitler's Willing Executioners. Not sure.

[Flowers]

Why don't you move the industrialization/racism discussion to the Arab Spring thread, and leave the us here to discuss mistreatment of women.

[Aeon221]

Why don't you move the industrialization/racism discussion to the Arab Spring thread, and leave the us here to discuss mistreatment of women.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/26/a3338cb6-0ccd-4c6a-857a-69d40ffaa453.jpg

[Destarius]

I move for introducing Starbucks and McDonald's. I don't think it's sheer coincidence that the guy holding Gaddafi's gun was wearing a Yankees cap. Cultural victory!