Fallen Enchantress

[dbd1963]

I think it should be a bit of both.

There should be 4 or 5 general, "basic" traits for everyone, and available at start.
All the other ones, 50% should be restricted to factions, and the other 50% for everyone but tied to tech research.

That sounds very good. +1

[Alstein]

That sounds very good. +1

I'll make it a +2, that's pretty much exactly what I want.

I'd reserve a few for events though.

The problem is that 3 traits cap, is that hardcoded or just for creation?

[Kael]

I'll make it a +2, that's pretty much exactly what I want.

I'd reserve a few for events though.

The problem is that 3 traits cap, is that hardcoded or just for creation?

Not hardcoded, it's in XML (its moddable). And its just for unit creation, champions often have far more than 3 traits.

The problem with placing traits throughout the tree is with preconstructed units.

If I create a preconstructed unit that has leather armor, an axe and the ninja trait. Then the player needs to have the tech that gives leather armor, the tech that gives axes and the tech that gives the ninja trait before that unit become available. (heaven forbid if the axe requires metal, which requires a mine which requires a tech).

If that unit has the ninja, quick an silent traits and those are all unlocked by different techs then you can imagine the amount of techs the player has to unlock before he starts to get units.

It's a constraint problem. One constraint works great. So you pick the real limitor, make it the constraint, and give away the others. It doesnt sound good when you are designing the secondary systems (the tendancy is always to make the system you are considering the center of the pyramid).

So I don't like having traits in the tech tree, its a handicap for human players that just want to use preconstructed units and to the AI. It blocks unit designs in all cases except when the stars align.

I do love having more faction specific traits, and maybe a few less traits in general (but have them be more impacting). I'd also like traits to interact with other parts of the game more. Bonuses vs elementals, bonuses to blunt damage, lower hit points but higher dodge, higher accuracy but lower initiative. I do like the unit traits that increase the autodefend bonus, definitly helps those units feel more suited to their role.

[TurinTur]

Some thoughts, on top of my head:

Treat traits as optional bonus (which is what they really are) you shouldn't count for when you design an unique prebuilt unit.

Or unique prebuilt units tied to factions should have traits as the traits help them feel unique, but they shouldn't unlock when the player unlock the correspondent traits, but only unlocking one tech. Research tech 1, unlock predone unit A, with traits xyz. They should exist apart from the unlocked traits used in custom units by the player.

Or classify traits in types (like attack, defense, movement, magic, critical) and design units with basic stats and "2 attack traits, 1 movement trait", and the game should create the template with whatever traits have the player unlocked from these types, that way the stars still have to align but it will be easier.

All these problems wouldn't happen in Master of Magic or Age of Wonders or Heroes of MM, because all the units are unique and they have the stats, abilities and traits the designer wanted. I don't know why you can't use that philosophy, and apart of that, also have the custom unit editor.

[Alstein]

Not hardcoded, it's in XML (its moddable). And its just for unit creation, champions often have far more than 3 traits.

The problem with placing traits throughout the tree is with preconstructed units.

If I create a preconstructed unit that has leather armor, an axe and the ninja trait. Then the player needs to have the tech that gives leather armor, the tech that gives axes and the tech that gives the ninja trait before that unit become available. (heaven forbid if the axe requires metal, which requires a mine which requires a tech).

If that unit has the ninja, quick an silent traits and those are all unlocked by different techs then you can imagine the amount of techs the player has to unlock before he starts to get units.

It's a constraint problem. One constraint works great. So you pick the real limitor, make it the constraint, and give away the others. It doesnt sound good when you are designing the secondary systems (the tendancy is always to make the system you are considering the center of the pyramid).

So I don't like having traits in the tech tree, its a handicap for human players that just want to use preconstructed units and to the AI. It blocks unit designs in all cases except when the stars align.

I do love having more faction specific traits, and maybe a few less traits in general (but have them be more impacting). I'd also like traits to interact with other parts of the game more. Bonuses vs elementals, bonuses to blunt damage, lower hit points but higher dodge, higher accuracy but lower initiative. I do like the unit traits that increase the autodefend bonus, definitly helps those units feel more suited to their role.


I see where you're coming from on this.

I liked the idea in Master of Mana of traits gained through killing units/winning battles (a mod of FFH). I'd love to see that happen in FE- if your spearmen kill a drake that might gain a bonus vs that type of monster.

I'd like to see traits like weapon masteries for champs and normal units that require a certain type of weapon. Like sword mastery giving an 2nd counterattack, or bonus damage with swords, etc.

I think factions should come with a couple of unique traits. One small question, you cut two factions in this beta, are they going to come back?

Another thing that would help normal units is making upgrading the units more streamlined/obvious, both in terms of equipment and size.

[Jarrodhk]

Playing the latest beta build (.912 51 I think). Had a random event pop up. An Eclipse that gave +2 to any player controlled monster units.

Sadly I did not have any.

[Brad Wardell]

Playing the latest beta build (.912 51 I think). Had a random event pop up. An Eclipse that gave +2 to any player controlled monster units.

Sadly I did not have any.

I'd like to see all random events move to being a choice by the player. The system supports it. Just gotta come up with reasons (i.e. choice A makes monsters tougher, choice B spawns new monsters in the world).

[Alstein]

I'd like to see all random events move to being a choice by the player. The system supports it. Just gotta come up with reasons (i.e. choice A makes monsters tougher, choice B spawns new monsters in the world).

I've never gotten a random event in any of my games, and I've played this plenty. I wish they were as common as they were in GalCiv.

[Jason Lutes]

Not hardcoded, it's in XML (its moddable). And its just for unit creation, champions often have far more than 3 traits.

The problem with placing traits throughout the tree is with preconstructed units.

If I create a preconstructed unit that has leather armor, an axe and the ninja trait. Then the player needs to have the tech that gives leather armor, the tech that gives axes and the tech that gives the ninja trait before that unit become available. (heaven forbid if the axe requires metal, which requires a mine which requires a tech).

If that unit has the ninja, quick an silent traits and those are all unlocked by different techs then you can imagine the amount of techs the player has to unlock before he starts to get units.

It's a constraint problem. One constraint works great. So you pick the real limitor, make it the constraint, and give away the others. It doesnt sound good when you are designing the secondary systems (the tendancy is always to make the system you are considering the center of the pyramid).

So I don't like having traits in the tech tree, its a handicap for human players that just want to use preconstructed units and to the AI. It blocks unit designs in all cases except when the stars align.

I do love having more faction specific traits, and maybe a few less traits in general (but have them be more impacting). I'd also like traits to interact with other parts of the game more. Bonuses vs elementals, bonuses to blunt damage, lower hit points but higher dodge, higher accuracy but lower initiative. I do like the unit traits that increase the autodefend bonus, definitly helps those units feel more suited to their role.

That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for the insight. More faction-specific traits, and fewer basic traits overall with more impact both sound like good ideas.

[Disconnected]

How about this: units have number of traits derived from faction & equipment, and 1 player determined basic trait. Each trait of all types has a number of ranks, and each time a unit levels up the player can choose to advance 1 of the unit's traits by 1 rank.

Further: re-design each basic trait to reinforce/improve on one specific faction or equipment trait.

The idea would be to make all units less "general purpose" - especially higher tier units/tech - and more combat role/theme specialists. While at the same time letting players decide whether to make veteran units reasonably competent at two things, or extremely competent at just one thing.
- That, and to try to ensure overall match strategy will decide unit choices/design, rather than the other way around.

[YourConscience]

How about this: units have number of traits derived from faction & equipment, and 1 player determined basic trait. Each trait of all types has a number of ranks, and each time a unit levels up the player can choose to advance 1 of the unit's traits by 1 rank.

Further: re-design each basic trait to reinforce/improve on one specific faction or equipment trait.


I like this idea! Sounds good. In the last beta it was really tedious to pick traits from 30 or 40. Having few traits, but upgradeable would make them much more distinctive and also easier to memorize.

[Alstein]

That sounds like a pretty good idea, but might be handled by making the trait have bonuses for level, or a chance to upgrade per level. Would be a little more streamlined, as having to upgrade normal units on level would get annoying quickly.

[Disconnected]

That sounds like a pretty good idea, but might be handled by making the trait have bonuses for level, or a chance to upgrade per level. Would be a little more streamlined, as having to upgrade normal units on level would get annoying quickly.

Based on my experience with games like Fantasy Wars, I doubt it would be a bother. Not for me, at least, but I hardly qualify as any kind of sample size...

Still, in such games leveling units is picking between just a couple of things, and thus requires no deep & lengthy pondering. But each choice greatly affects just one of the things the particular unit is already good at, and so you tend to pick things based on what its companion units needs more. In FE that just might translate into less arbitrarily slapped-together stacks, and it will almost certainly make players more attached to the units they design.

If it really did turn out to be a bother, though, some of the same benefits could probably be had simply by making players assign which one trait will gain ranks, when the unit is spawned (post-design/queuing, I mean).

- Forgive wonky writing, I'm not at a proper keyboard.

[jpinard]

Can I ask a really dumb question? I am so far out of the loop it's embarassing. Stardock - did you make your own utility to replace Gamespot Impulse? I'd like to re-install my old games and get into FE (I purchased Elemental long ago), but would prefer to keep my new build as clean as possible. Nothing against Gamesopt, I just have too many game clients as is and only want to use what's best for FE if possible.

[KevinC]

Stardock Central (http://www.stardock.com/stardockcentral/) has been reborn, yes. I got an email about it a little while back anyway.

You can also just download the games off of their website, no client needed.

[Calelari]

That would be Stardock Central (http://www.stardock.com/stardockcentral/) ---

Ack, beaten by milliseconds!

[jpinard]

Thanks guys, I couldn't find the link off the game site. Sooooo glad to see Stardock Central is back in command :)

[Alstein]

You don't even need a client, you can download off a webpage if you wish.

https://store.stardock.com/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/myaccount/products

Warning: if you bought GC2 back in the day, it's not on there, only those who bought the ultimate edition have it on Stardock. I'm still a little upset about that.

[driillSGT]

I own an Impulse/Gamestop copy of Elemental:War of Magic, but it does not show up either, only my copy of Galciv2 that I bought on Steam.

[driillSGT]

You don't even need a client, you can download off a webpage if you wish.

https://store.stardock.com/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/myaccount/products

Warning: if you bought GC2 back in the day, it's not on there, only those who bought the ultimate edition have it on Stardock. I'm still a little upset about that.

I own an Impulse/Gamestop copy of Elemental:War of Magic, but it does not show up on Stardock, only my copy of Galciv2 that I bought on Steam.

[Dan_Theman]

All my Stardock games are there, fwiw. The last time I tried I couldn't actually get FE to run, but that's the joy of beta testing, lol.

[Razgon]

I own an Impulse/Gamestop copy of Elemental:War of Magic, but it does not show up either, only my copy of Galciv2 that I bought on Steam.

Where does it not show up? You need to use the stardock link posted earlier and use the email credentials you used when you purchased the game originally.

[driillSGT]

Where does it not show up? You need to use the stardock link posted earlier and use the email credentials you used when you purchased the game originally.

I have the exact same email address on Stardock and GS/Impulse.

Stardock says I own Galciv2 Ultimate

GS/Impulse says I own Elemental WOM

It doesn't really matter at this point, but it did stop me from pre-purchasing FE when they sent me an offer for 10 dollars off as a 2011 Elemental owner.

[Disconnected]

I have the exact same email address on Stardock and GS/Impulse.

SD associates games with whatever email was used to buy them so if you, for example, used a different email to purchase that one particular game through Impulse/GS, SD won't know you're you until you associate that address with the one you normally use.

If that's not the problem, contact SD's support. At least in my limited experience, they're both nice and surprisingly fast (the one issue I've had was resolved satisfactorily within something like 3 hours of me contacting them).

[Brad Wardell]

New update tonight. Mostly AI improvements.

[Island Dog]

Any Stardock game will be associated with your account e-mail. You can see all your downloads/registrations here.

http://download.stardock.com

If it's not there, then yeah, contact support and they will sort it out for you.

[Brad Wardell]

Someone asked regarding player videos on game play.

Here's one by one of the beta testers:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/423835

[driillSGT]

Someone asked regarding player videos on game play.

Here's one by one of the beta testers:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/423835

These are good videos. He's up to 16 episodes now.

[TurinTur]

Multiplayer DLC poll!
http://forums.elementalgame.com/424506

[DKDArtagnan]

People voting no for that should be shot in the head.

In the kindest possible way, of course.

[TurinTur]

I voted no :)

[Dan_Theman]

While I don't want to go the direction of making a logical fallacy, *any* mention of DLC does at least give me a reflexive twitch if not an outright grumble. However, doing MP in this manner makes a lot of sense because some people simply won't play MP while others will, and the price is right. Keep in mind that question is asking whether a gamer would pay for it, not whether they think it should exist in the first place.

As an aside, I think it's better than charging extra money for maps or civs, ala Firaxis, because it's giving a functionality that truly segments the consumer base as opposed to making the game "complete." Of course, I would also be far less compelled to do purchase it.

[KevinC]

It's a very obvious yes for me, because frankly I spend 90% of my gaming time coop. SP games are very few and far between for me, they just don't interest me for long.

Anyway, so obviously it's worth the $1, I'd snatch that up in a moment. It's worth far more than that! The little bit of conflict comes from the fact that I bought Elemental because it was advertised as having MP - that's why I was interested in that and never got into GalCiv. The MP there never materialized, but statements were made about putting a bunch of resources into it for Fallen Enchantress. Then MP got pulled from that as well. I understand the reasons for that, but at the same time it was a total bait and switch. This game has been nothing but a $40 digital coaster for me because the advertised features that drew me to the game never actually made it to the game.

So, yes, I would pay for the DLC especially if it's priced reasonably, but I admit it irks me a bit that I was nailed by a bait and switch (regardless of the fact Stardock didn't have ill intentions) and now I'm being asked to pony up to get the originally advertised feature.

But yea, for $1, it's a no brainer - it's a decision between a $40 game I'll never play or a $41 game I might really be interested in.

[dbd1963]

Though I probably wouldn't use it, I voted yes. A dollar is not too much to ask for it.

[ioticus]

I'm surprised the No's outnumber the Yes's. I have no interest in MP but would be willing to pay a dollar for those that want it or if I needed it someday. Not much to ask.

[Brad Wardell]

I voted yes. Though, regardless, I intend us to have MP post-release as a free update assuming the game does ok.

[KevinC]

I voted yes. Though, regardless, I intend us to have MP post-release as a free update assuming the game does ok.

That is music to my ears, keeping my fingers crossed the game does well (for multiple reasons, this is just a selfish one :)).

[dbd1963]

Brad, if I can bend your ear -- steal some stuff from Warlock, whatever it is you liked about it, and also do something that is like Perpentach in FFH2 -- a faction that plays differently than anyone else (in that case, the faction could use the culture bomb to flip your cities to their culture), and gives you different headaches when you meet them.

If you guys can come up with two or three guys like this, using different mechanics (the Elohim and the elven faction leap to mind), all the better! It's that kind of thing that makes the game more fun -- you don't really know what strategy you'll have to adopt until you see who you are next to.

I think FE is in such a good position to become an all time classic, and it only needs a few refinements to get there.

[Alstein]

I voted yes, despite most likely not using it. I suspect it will take more then $1 per person to do it right though.

As for .914 , I could tell the AI improvements- though I think tactical AI still needs to be beefed up heavily, if that is possible. I do think FE will do pretty well, especially if you concentrate on the folks who use Steam heavily, most of which never played WOM.

[Jason Lutes]

I've beaten it twice on Impossible both times against "Elpiritster the Eternal." Both times he's been rather passive. The first game, he never built a second city. The second game, he made several half-hearted attacks on two of my cities, but never pressed them home. He did recapture one of his cities that I took over.

The large Difficult game I played before it seemed like the AIs were much more aggressive. I'm starting to wonder if the different AI players have "personality." It might make sense for Elpiritster to play a more passive game at least as when comparing his depiction to some of the other Great Mages.

It could also simply be he was being cautious. Every time he would probe one of my cities, he would discover I had a few Archer of Helios there (awesome god-based archer, with range 3 and a special range 4 every 4 turns ability). He would then back off. If he had realized exactly how thin my line was, he could have crushed me. Perhaps he was playing George McClellan to my weak Southern Army and letting his fears of my purported (but non-existent) great strength prevent him from attacking.

Um, wrong thread? I understand the confusion, though.

[ydejin]

Um, wrong thread? I understand the confusion, though.

Ooops, will delete the post and move it over. Thanks Jason.

[Brad Wardell]

Brad, if I can bend your ear -- steal some stuff from Warlock, whatever it is you liked about it, and also do something that is like Perpentach in FFH2 -- a faction that plays differently than anyone else (in that case, the faction could use the culture bomb to flip your cities to their culture), and gives you different headaches when you meet them.

If you guys can come up with two or three guys like this, using different mechanics (the Elohim and the elven faction leap to mind), all the better! It's that kind of thing that makes the game more fun -- you don't really know what strategy you'll have to adopt until you see who you are next to.

I think FE is in such a good position to become an all time classic, and it only needs a few refinements to get there.

That's more like a Kael question. My job on the game is AI related and complaining. :)

[driillSGT]

Is the FE engine more optimized than the Elemental engine? (I'm not in the FE beta)

I remember Elemental running a little slow with a large empire on my old computer. I haven't tried it on my brand new computer yet.

[Armando Penblade]

Is the FE engine more optimized than the Elemental engine? (I'm not in the FE beta)

I remember Elemental running a little slow with a large empire on my old computer. I haven't tried it on my brand new computer yet.

I think a little slow is overly generous. My quad-core 4GB Radeon 6870 beastmachine chugged past turn 75-100.

The last beta of FE I played was much smoother in the late game but invariably crashed every few turns after 100. I hear that's cleaned up now though?

[driillSGT]

I think a little slow is overly generous. My quad-core 4GB Radeon 6870 beastmachine chugged past turn 75-100.

The last beta of FE I played was much smoother in the late game but invariably crashed every few turns after 100. I hear that's cleaned up now though?

It's got a great art style, I'm glad I won't have to play it on the cloth map again ;)

[Brad Wardell]

Is the FE engine more optimized than the Elemental engine? (I'm not in the FE beta)

I remember Elemental running a little slow with a large empire on my old computer. I haven't tried it on my brand new computer yet.

Massively etter. It's pixel shader 3, highly multithreaded and 64bit aware.

[Brad Wardell]

I think a little slow is overly generous. My quad-core 4GB Radeon 6870 beastmachine chugged past turn 75-100.

The last beta of FE I played was much smoother in the late game but invariably crashed every few turns after 100. I hear that's cleaned up now though?

Should be now. The challenge has been to make it tread safe. It'll create worker threads for each CPU core. So late ame, huge map, 20 players should finish in less than 5 seconds if you ave say 4 cores.

[Armando Penblade]

Should be now. The challenge has been to make it tread safe. It'll create worker threads for each CPU core. So late ame, huge map, 20 players should finish in less than 5 seconds if you ave say 4 cores.

Glad to hear it.

My lady-pal's taking a trip to the Caribbean to do some linguistic studies there for the first half of the summer, so I'm thinking of resurrecting my short-lived, relatively unpopular Let's Play series for FE. Being able to actually finish the games would be a huge boon for me ;)

Thank you guys for all your hard work on this, by the way. I know you probably hear it a lot, and of course it's your job, and of course some of the work in the past hasn't always produced what you wanted it to. . . but it doesn't change the fact that you've poured an ungodly amount of time and effort into making this game awesome. The changes I've been reading about the last month or so sound *awesome* and I can't wait to dig back into it!

[Alstein]

I do think going from .913 to .914 is a fairly big step up this time. This patch was the first time I felt like the game was showing glimpses of greatness instead of just being good.

[DKDArtagnan]

I've yet to dive into it, but the more I "dabble" - the more I like it. It's really starting to look like what I originally hoped Elemental would be.

The plans for multiplayer has made the game relevant to me again, and I can only hope it's for real. I can't enjoy strategy games singleplayer anymore, because I find the AI an ultimately pointless opponent. But if I can expect to one day meet human opponents, then playing the game makes sense as practice :)

[Alstein]

That said, I really didn't get the point of Brad's MP poll this weekend for several reasons:

1) It shouldn't have been yes/no, but just yes. It's not so much important who won't pay for MP, but who will.

2) $1 isn't going to cut it obviously.

I know it's an evil word, but I think for potential projects like this where there is a financial risk, a kickstarter type system would be best. Simply estimate the cost, put it out there, and if you get the right % of the cost to be worth the risk, you do it.
If not, well it just isn't viable.

If I remember some earlier forum posts, Stardock's old games budgets were determined at least partially by preorder interest (obviously this couldn't be done with FE)

I would put about $10 up for that, I'm not massively interested in MP, but it would extend the life of the game, and might help SP sales. I suspect a few folks would pay triple-digits though, which would subsidize it for others.

[DKDArtagnan]

If I had been Brad, I would definitely want to know what kind of percentage wants MP.

He's always insisted that very few people play MP - based on statistics, but it's not such a clear-cut thing.

For instance, I LOVE MP - but I almost never get to play strategy games with friends, because it requires a commitment and usually we prefer to be in the same room, which means transporting computers etc.

So, for a strong MP game, I'd still play SP MUCH MUCH more, and I might not ever start a MP session. It's enough to know that its possible, because then it makes sense to practice against the AI.

Based on the poll, ~40% of the audience wants MP in FE - and that makes me very happy.

[Tony M]

That seems extraordinary to me. I would be very surprised if even 10% of 4X Turn Based gamers play multiplayer. The time commitment is too big for it to be of use to more than a small but dedicated subset of players.

[TurinTur]

To be clear, I think $1 to add multiplayer to Fallen Enchantress is very cheap, it's a great news for the people interested. I am very ok with the idea proposed.

But being honest, the poll didn't ask "what do you think about this", it asked "would YOU pay for it?" And because I know I won't play MP, I will be happy playing only by myself, I won't buy it, even being that cheap. So I voted no, so Stardock can have an accurate statistic.

[DKDArtagnan]

I'd gladly pay full price for a MP DLC - though it wouldn't be reasonable.

Naturally, people should vote honestly - and there's no denying that if Stardock implements MP, they won't be using those resources on more SP content - during that time.

If I knew I was never going to touch MP, I'd definitely vote no as well.

[Mark Asher]

So what if they get 2000 people to pledge $1 for multiplayer? How far does that money go towards actually delivering it?

[DKDArtagnan]

If I read Brad correctly, it's not really a monetary issue - but just a way of estimating true interest.

[Zak Gordon]

That seems extraordinary to me. I would be very surprised if even 10% of 4X Turn Based gamers play multiplayer. The time commitment is too big for it to be of use to more than a small but dedicated subset of players.

This. RTS is a whole different ball game, but the only MP-type Tbs i ever played for any length of time is via hot-seat or PBEM (and i hope FE will have those or hot-seat atleast?). Has there been any fully fledged MP tbs games? I think i must have tried a few, but i can't recall much other than the games died pretty quick in the players interest?

[DKDArtagnan]

This. RTS is a whole different ball game, but the only MP-type Tbs i ever played for any length of time is via hot-seat or PBEM. Has there been any fully fledged MP tbs games? I think i must have tried a few, but i can't recall much other than the games died pretty quick in the players interest?

There's this game called Dominions 3 that people seem to like around here.

Other than that, I've played many TB games exhaustively. Some of my favorites include:

HoMM series
MoO2
Warlords Series
Birth of the Federation
Alpha Centauri

[Mark Asher]

If I read Brad correctly, it's not really a monetary issue - but just a way of estimating true interest.

I'd need to know more about the game. For example, in my current Warlock game I'm on turn 111 and probably not even half done. I'm not sure I could play a multiplayer game that might take 200+ turns to complete.

Now if Brad tells me there will be a way to play FE that will let us complete a game in 80 turns or fewer I'd be more interested in multiplayer. Maybe a scoring system that gives points for civ building, battle success, and exploration success so instead of playing to a conclusion we play to reach a score and have multiple paths to get there?

[DKDArtagnan]

I'd need to know more about the game. For example, in my current Warlock game I'm on turn 111 and probably not even half done. I'm not sure I could play a multiplayer game that might take 200+ turns to complete.

Now if Brad tells me there will be a way to play FE that will let us complete a game in 80 turns or fewer I'd be more interested in multiplayer. Maybe a scoring system that gives points for civ building, battle success, and exploration success so instead of playing to a conclusion we play to reach a score and have multiple paths to get there?

Fair enough.

I'm a huge fan of "epic games" that can last for days - though it's rare to get the opportunity to play them these days.

Back in the day, I used to play lots of multi-day campaigns with a few friends (MoO2 being the most popular) - and we just saved the game when the day was up.

There's something truly epic about a shared 4X campaign that's lasted for a long time :)

[Zak Gordon]

There's this game called Dominions 3 that people seem to like around here.

Other than that, I've played many TB games exhaustively. Some of my favorites include:

HoMM series
MoO2
Warlords Series
Birth of the Federation
Alpha Centauri

Dominons 3 for sure, thanks for the mind-poke. As for the others, they are all old classics, did they do TCP/IP mp back then? I must admit i only ever played those SP or hotseat.....maybe as internet was more rare back then?

[DKDArtagnan]

Dominons 3 for sure, thanks for the mind-poke. As for the others, they are all old classics, did they do TCP/IP mp back then? I must admit i only ever played those SP or hotseat.....maybe as internet was more rare back then?

For TCP/IP - we used to play in the same room, when we had a chance to transport computers :)

That said, most of them don't work well in a LAN environment. The exception being Warlords 3/DLR - which was excellent in that way.

What we used to do, as 3-4 friends, was play it hotseat and watch a bunch of movies in the background. That way, we had something to do when taking turns. Naturally, we spent a lot of time threatening each other and proposing secret deals in the other room :)

On rare occasions, we still take trips to a summer cabin, and play boardgames and TB games. Last time it was HoMM6 - which was great fun in hotseat.

[Mark Asher]

I'm all for the idea of epic multiplayer 4X games, but I'm dubious I could commit to something that might last months, and I'd think it would be hard to find others who would commit and actually continue to process turns for months. I think the idea of something that can start and finish in a couple of weeks makes more sense.

[DKDArtagnan]

I'm all for the idea of epic multiplayer 4X games, but I'm dubious I could commit to something that might last months, and I'd think it would be hard to find others who would commit and actually continue to process turns for months. I think the idea of something that can start and finish in a couple of weeks makes more sense.

I'm not sure about FE, but none of the other games last "months" in MP. The vast majority of our games were decided in a weekend, and many of those before the first day was up.

That said, playing a game to FULL completion was very, very rare - as people tend to quit before that happens.

[Mark Asher]

I'm not sure about FE, but none of the other games last "months" in MP. The vast majority of our games were decided in a weekend, and many of those before the first day was up.

That said, playing a game to FULL completion was very, very rare - as people tend to quit before that happens.

That takes people dedicating a healthy slice of predetermined time. I'm more interested in multiplayer that is sending a turn in once or twice a day. I just don't see myself sitting down and knowing I have three uninterrupted hours I can count on for a multiplayer game. It's one of the reasons why I never tried to get into a raiding guild in WoW, also.

[DKDArtagnan]

That takes people dedicating a healthy slice of predetermined time. I'm more interested in multiplayer that is sending a turn in once or twice a day. I just don't see myself sitting down and knowing I have three uninterrupted hours I can count on for a multiplayer game. It's one of the reasons why I never tried to get into a raiding guild in WoW, also.

To each his own, and I certainly appreciate that. It does seem to be a rarity overall.

It's kinda strange, because among my "crowd" - it's quite common to get together for all kinds of gaming, and the challenge is more about coordination than dedication to doing it.

I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing, but it does seem to be very rare in the US to physically transport computers for LAN sessions.

Maybe that's in my head?

[KevinC]

I'd need to know more about the game. For example, in my current Warlock game I'm on turn 111 and probably not even half done. I'm not sure I could play a multiplayer game that might take 200+ turns to complete.

Now if Brad tells me there will be a way to play FE that will let us complete a game in 80 turns or fewer I'd be more interested in multiplayer. Maybe a scoring system that gives points for civ building, battle success, and exploration success so instead of playing to a conclusion we play to reach a score and have multiple paths to get there?

TBS definitely doesn't work well for pickup games, but it's my favorite genre to play coop with friends. Sure, we don't finish in one session, but it's fun having an ongoing game.

If I didn't have friends that enjoyed TBS I wouldn't be terribly interested in MP for this genre.

[KevinC]

I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing, but it does seem to be very rare in the US to physically transport computers for LAN sessions.

Maybe that's in my head?

It's because cars in the US are so small and economical that we have no room for transporting computers.

[DKDArtagnan]

It's because cars in the US are so small and economical that we have no room for transporting computers.

That makes perfect sense! ;)

[Mark Asher]

To each his own, and I certainly appreciate that. It does seem to be a rarity overall.

It's kinda strange, because among my "crowd" - it's quite common to get together for all kinds of gaming, and the challenge is more about coordination than dedication to doing it.

I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing, but it does seem to be very rare in the US to physically transport computers for LAN sessions.

Maybe that's in my head?

Just curious, but where did you meet the people in your "crowd?" Are they all friends from college? I could see a group like that hanging together as you get older.

For me I'd have to put together a local group to enjoy LAN gaming like you suggest. I'm sure I could do it via running ads on Craigslist or something like that, pinning notes up in gaming shops, etc. That would be a fun way to play a TBS game.

[DKDArtagnan]

Just curious, but where did you meet the people in your "crowd?" Are they all friends from college? I could see a group like that hanging together as you get older.

For me I'd have to put together a local group to enjoy LAN gaming like you suggest. I'm sure I could do it via running ads on Craigslist or something like that, pinning notes up in gaming shops, etc. That would be a fun way to play a TBS game.

Well, I've got about 7-8 people that I've played these games with more than a few times. One brother, one cousin - one very close friend, and the rest are friends I've met down the line.

But yeah, we're living in close proximity by US standards. All within ~15 kilometers of each other... Denmark is a pretty small place ;)

[TurinTur]

Changelog for the soon to come update


Features:

+ Traits can now limited to certain units types (iron golem only traits, slave only traits, etc)

+ Added splash damage feature (a percent of the melee damage done is done to surrounding units, enemies and allies alike)

+ Added damage reflection feature (a percent of damage done to the target is done back to the attacker)

+ Added the Juggernaut designable unit (trog only)

+ Added the Juggernaut trait (can't be knocked prone, +100% Attack, +25% splash damage)

+ Added the Brutal Nature juggernaut trait (+100% attack)

+ Added the Frenzy juggernaut trait (+4 initiative)

+ Added the Heart of Stone juggernaut trait (+20 defense vs cutting)

+ Added the Ignore Pain juggernaut trait (+40 hit points)

+ Added the Maul juggernaut trait (grants the unit Maul)

+ Added the Uncontrolled Rage juggernaut trait (+50% splash damage)

+ Added the Tempered Steel trait (iron golem only, raises the defense)

+ Added Henchmen designable unit (altar only, use equipment and gain levels like champions, 50 influence to recruit)

+ Heroic faction trait gives +50 influence and +1 faction prestige whenever they complete a quest (assigned to Altar)

+ Added the Air Adept I-III henchmen traits (give access to minor air spells)

+ Added the Earth Adept I-III henchmen traits (give access to minor earth spells)

+ Added the Fire Adept I-III henchmen traits (give access to minor fire spells)

+ Added the Life Adept I-III henchmen traits (give access to minor life spells)

+ Added the Water Adept I-III henchmen traits (give access to minor water spells)

+ Added the Cook henchman trait (+1 healing for units in the army)

+ Added Shieldwall as a henchman trait (+5 defense for the army)

+ Added the Bard henchman trait (+10% xp for the army)

+ Added the Shieldman henchmen unit

+ Added the Bard henchman unit

+ Added the Torch Bearer henchman unit

+ Added hot key tool tips to Govern, Spellbook, and Turn buttons

+ Hooked up hot keys for the above

+ Hooked up hot keys to take players between cities [ and ]

+ Added the Cloak of Thorns spell (reflects 25% of the damage taken back at the attacker)

+ Added the Hurl Boulder spell (adept earth 1 spell for a minor ranged attack)

+ Added the No Armor faction weakness (assigned to resoln, this faction can't learn the armor, hevay armor or arcane armor techs)

+ Added the Binding faction ability (assigned to resoln, their shard shrines summon special elementals like camps)

+ Added the Crow Demon (binding summon, can cast thunderstirke and titans breath)

+ Added the Balefire Elemental (binding summon, has the Feed the Fire ability, tactical stackable ability that increases their attack)

+ Added the Mirror Elemental (binding summon, 100% of the damage done to a mirror elemental is also done to the attacker)

+ Added the Grave Elemental (binding summon, regenerates and has the harbinger traits)

+ Added the Aid spell (minor heal spell for henchmen)



Bugs:

+ Fixed an issue with Curse and Curse city using the wrong icons

+ Alchemists labs req 100 crystal instead of taking 1 crystal per turn (they were causing players to drop into negative crystals when they didn’t have mines or overbuilt them)

+ Burning Blade, Stoneskin, Summon Fire Elemental, Summon Earth Elemental, Summon Shadow Warg, and Summon Ice Elemental can no longer be cast twice (once with the strategic version and once with the tactical version)

+ Fixed the desc on the Finesse ability

+ Fixed an issue with the Path of the Assassin trait giving +150% crit damage instead of +50%

+ Fixed an issue causing loot to not be given when defending

+ Fixed annoying camera bug where the camera would center on units that had been attacked but actually had off-screen units selected

+ Fixed an issue that was making Grip of Winter permanent



Balance:

+ Hardy sovereign talent makes the unit immune to poison

+ Natural Leader sovereign talent makes recruiting champions free

+ Scholar sovereign background increases research by 25%

+ Wealthy sovereign talent gives 1000 gildar instead of 200

+ Rebalanced lair distribution (high level lairs are less common, but more low level lairs upgrade now)

+ Added late game versions of the bandit, butcherman and cave bear lairs

+ Reduced the damage on the Ignys Bow slightly

+ Adventurers Boon trait now gives 15 hit points instead of 10

+ Graceful trait gives +2 init along with making the unit immune to being knocked prone, it requires the fast trait

+ Potential trait gives +15/+20/+25% xp instead of +10/15/20%

+ Trainer abilities give +10%/15%/20% xp instead of +5%/10%/15%

+ River Slags and Slags gain Bash

+ Experience gained from battle is now scaled based on world size

+ You only get free city defenders if you founded the city

+ Objects that are hidden by FOW are no longer able to be interacted with (cities, etc.)

+ Some big monsters gain splash damage

+ Amarian’s get -1 hp per level

+ Tarth blood ability increased to +3 attack and init when in groups of 3 or less

+ Trog blood gives +1 attack

+ Increased the crit damage on the vital strike abilities

+ Reduced the pop required for city level 1 from 60 to 50

+ Increase Darkling Rider init from 20 to 24

+ Most quest battles can now be delayed (you can choose to come back later)

+ Increased the reward on the Trolls quest from the Ring of storms to a Scinan Broadsword

+ Slightly increased minimum XP gained from killing things

+ Marginal tile yield tiles have been removed

+ Combat rating to XP ration increased from 5% to 7.5%

+ Bashing Maul does 50% splash damage

+ Titanic Maul does 75% splash damage

+ Mirror Shield now reflects 25% of the damage back at the attacker

+ Removed the squads tech

+ Logistics and Company's moved into the civ tree

+ Increased Balance from +5 Dodge and -2 hit points to +10 Dodge and -1 hit points

+ Removed the Tough unit design trait

+ Changed Fury form +1 attack and -3 hit points to +1 attack and -1 hit point

+ Lithe increased from +3 dodge to +10 dodge

+ Precision gives +10 accuracy instead of +5

+ Shieldwall is a defender ability instead of a unit design trait and it gives +5 defense to the army instead of +1

+ Spell Resistance gives +20 spell resistance instead of +10

+ Several monsters given the Uncontrolled Rage trait (splash damage)



Cosmetic:

+ Faction power wnd now appears over the terrain wnd

+ Added the one handed spear animations

+ If a player is casting the spell of making it is now displayed in the faction power wnd

+ New Verga background

+ New Ceresa background

+ Tile Yields display is now ON by default

+ New fallen environment terrain

+ New fallen environment trees



AI:

+ Monsters less aggressive about going after cities

+ AI a little bit more effective at shopping for equipment

+ Fixed major AI bug in which AI treated monster lairs as "goodie huts". It didn't "see" the monsters on them and thus would get killed over and over.

+ AI relations change more gradually

+ AI manages its strategic spells and mana more effectively

+ AI interacts with player somewhat more often in general

+ AI more generous about valuating spells

+ Monster aggressiveness is now more varied between difficulty levels

+ Fixed a weird issue where a monster would just get stuck never moving.

+ Fixed monster bug where it would want to attack a city but its patrol radius kept it from attacking

+ Doubled/tripple checked to make sure monsters like eating AI as much as humans (they do, players just notice when the bugs above helped AI).

+ AI will offer to trade tech with players

+ AI takes faction prestige into account when determining relations

+ Updated the tool tips for difficulty level. Note: The default difficulty for AI is normal. If you win, turn up the difficulty level before asking us to make normal harder for everyone else. If you can beat Hard, then come talk to us.

[TurinTur]

Hidden in the previous log I am seeing new stuff:

+ Added the Broken Loyalties spell (switch a city to your control for a huge amount of influence)

+ Added the Betrayers faction ability (assigned to Kraxis, allows them to recruit empire and kingdom champions and use the Broken Loyalties spell)

+ Krax blood gives the unit the ability to Fortify a tile in tactical combat, units in fortified tiles get +10 to Accuracy and +30 to Dodge

+ Added the Undying Curse trait (when this unit kills a victim this unit gains an additional member to its group, to a max of 9 members)

+ Added the Cyndrum Demon (binding summon, has the Undying Curse trait)


+ Syphon Soul now correctly reduces the victims attack by 25% and gives that amount to the caster

+ Fixed an issue keeping Titan's Breath from working if it was used as an ability (ie: from an Air Elemental)

+ Fixed an issue allowing a player to spend an additional point in create sovereign if he picks his sovereign last (you cheaters!)

+ Fixed an issue causing the Path of the Assassin's +50% critical damage to be applied per level instead of a flat bonus

+ Fixed an issue causing troll camps to be unbuilable


+ Butcherman gain the Undying Curse trait

+ Fireballs casting time reduced from 2 to 1, but it will also damage friendly units in range

+ Units don't get additional movement from roads in enemy territory

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The new version .915 beta update is out.

[TurinTur]

Cool. In the last moment they added this new feature, btw.


+ Master Scouts faction ability keeps monster player units from attacking the player, though they can attack monsters (Tarth ability)

I am not sure of the meaning, though.

[Sepiche]

I am not sure of the meaning, though.
Sounds like roaming monsters won't attack Tarth stacks which would be an awesome advantage.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sounds like roaming monsters won't attack Tarth stacks which would be an awesome advantage.


Resolin doesn't have the armor tech? Is that the people you get when you pick Cersea?

[Mysterio]

I am not sure of the meaning, though.

Maybe the comment by Brad before the patch bullet list explains it?


Tarth, the most popular faction with players, don't get attack by monsters (other than in wild lands). Go ahead, build that city surrounded by monsters. No defenses needed, the monsters will take care of the trespassers.

It sounds like it does, but I'm not certain. Regardless, that's a cool faction ability!

[Kael]

Cool. In the last moment they added this new feature, btw.

I am not sure of the meaning, though.


Sounds like roaming monsters won't attack Tarth stacks which would be an awesome advantage.

That is correct. The monsters don't attack Tarth. But Tarth is still able to attack the monsters. This combined with Tarths attack and initiative bonus when in small groups and normal movement through difficult terrain makes them excellent raiders, able to rush in, steal goodies or do some damage and then disappear back into lands that no one dares follow them into.


Resolin doesn't have the armor tech? Is that the people you get when you pick Cersea?

That is correct. Ceresa is the leader of Resoln, they don't get any armor beyond Leather making them the worst faction in toe to toe melee combat. Fortunately they have tames spiders that can web those closing on their units, powerful curses and they get corrupted versions of elementals from shard shrines they control. These are:

Burning Wraith- Has a high attack it can drive even higher each time it skips its attack to Feed the Flames.

Crow Demon- Small, fast attacker that can teleport around the battlefield.

Gravestone Elemental- Significant regeneration and defense makes him perfect for holding enemies back from the Resoln units. His harbinger ability gives him extra hit points when he kills a unit.

Mirror Elemental- No particuarly strong or well defended. But all damage done to them is also done to the unit that attacked them.

Cyndrum Demon- Starts as a fairly weak single unit. But each time a Cyndrum Demon kills a victim it adds another member to its group.

[KevinC]

You and your team are doing awesome work, Kael. I'm hoping you guys find some way of adding coop after the game's release, I would love to dig into this!

[Mark L]

Really loving the direction the game is headed. Powerful, asymmetric gamechangers yes, incremental +5% bonuses no!

[RepoMan]

Yep, think Diablo III rune-per-level, not Diablo II 5%-per-level :-)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Thanks Kael. Sweet. Good holiday weekend to check this puppy out.

[TurinTur]

Yep, think Diablo III rune-per-level, not Diablo II 5%-per-level :-)

Great, now you see everything with Diablo-colored glasses! :P

[Razgon]

Awesome!

Now Kael, remember the next step is what we talked about - Bring back the big Double D's.

Dungeons and Dynasties and I'll be happy!

[Kael]

Awesome!

Now Kael, remember the next step is what we talked about - Bring back the big Double D's.

Leave my wife out of this. ;)

[Jorune]

That is correct. The monsters don't attack Tarth. But Tarth is still able to attack the monsters. This combined with Tarths attack and initiative bonus when in small groups and normal movement through difficult terrain makes them excellent raiders, able to rush in, steal goodies or do some damage and then disappear back into lands that no one dares follow them into.





As someone who preordered Elemental, I had little interest in FE. With talk about clearly defined factions that work very differently from each other, you have just piqued my interest. Thank you so much.

Jorune

[Dan_Theman]

I've got to tell you, Jorune, it really is night and day between the two in terms of character.

[Jason Lutes]

Can someone tell me why every "random," normal-sized map I start a new game on is the same map? Are random maps not implemented yet?

[Mark L]

It seems clear to me- the program is simply randomly creating the same map. Could happen!

[TurinTur]

They need to put the new info of the factions in the UI. In the descriptions/perks, I see missing:
Resoln can train the spiders*, Altar can train the henchmen, Magnar can use slaves, Pariden have the magical outpost thing.

*: BTw, two of the three spiders don't appear in the Hiergamannon.

[Oghier]

Powerful, asymmetric gamechangers yes, incremental +5% bonuses no!

I agree! Along with internally consistent lore, this is a key difference between a fantasy TBS and a spreadsheet with graphics.

[TurinTur]

I was doing a revision of the actual spell list (Edited funny typo). I was a bit surprised to see it lacks some kind of Rise from the Grave / Animate Dead spells. Or Zombie Mastery, if possible. It would go well in the Death spell list, in the other hand I see a bit too much spells that causes direct damage.

And talking about the spell list, it could have some kind of filter or grouping by magic schools.

[Mark L]

I wish I had a spell rooster. I'd feel like the cock of the walk!

[Calelari]

Yeah, but one day you're cock of the walk; the next day, a feather duster.

[warthurton]

I am really looking forward to this game, but I'm cautious to join the beta as I don't want to be ready to go on to something else before the final version comes out.

Is the gameplay staying basically the same now and only tweaks to details, or should I simply wait until the shipped version comes out?

I don't mind beta, but if things are going to be different, I don't want to miss out due to my ADD when it comes to playing games.

[Dan_Theman]

Great question, and ... I don't know. Nobody has given a release date, as it's a "the game is done when the team is happy with it" development approach, afaik.

[TurinTur]

It's already mature enough to play and have fun, and much better than Elemental right now, but even then... I would say wait. It's not a real beta, but an alpha (I consider betas as mostly content locked, just bug squashing, balancing and polishing, more or less; and here the devs are still defining the unique characteristics of the factions in the last builds, with still work to do).

[Brad Wardell]

Beta 4 is the last major beta (major features being added). Derek has a whole new city / outpost system in the works for it plus some UI changes.

For me, as the AI guy, I normally don't even start writing AI code this early in development. So FE ought to be pretty interesting to see how the final AI turns out given how much time I've gotten.

That's one of the benefits of not having to juggle Impulse.

As some of my Qt3 friends know, during Elemental, where I was ostensibly the "designer", most of my actual days were spent flying around meeting either with enterprise customers for preloads (HP or Dell) or to game publishers to get titles on Impulse. OR working on Sins of a Solar Empire / Demigod.

I feel a bit like I did back when I wrote Galactic Civilizations for OS/2 (20 years ago) when I actually got to work on the game.

As for whether someone should get Fallen Enchantress now, my personal opinion is not to ever play a beta. Even Diablo 3 I stayed away from before release in order not to spoil it.

On the other hand, FE Beta 3 (which just finished) will be very different from FE Beta 4 since the whole "civilization" aspect of the game is about to be migrated from the WOM system.

[warthurton]

As for whether someone should get Fallen Enchantress now, my personal opinion is not to ever play a beta. Even Diablo 3 I stayed away from before release in order not to spoil it.

On the other hand, FE Beta 3 (which just finished) will be very different from FE Beta 4 since the whole "civilization" aspect of the game is about to be migrated from the WOM system.

I'm excited about the game, but I will hold off to play until after release. Still will pre-order to show my support though!

[marxeil]

On the other hand, FE Beta 3 (which just finished) will be very different from FE Beta 4 since the whole "civilization" aspect of the game is about to be migrated from the WOM system.
What does this mean, Beta4 will be more like WOM?

[TurinTur]

From my great English knowledge, I could swear he is saying the opposite: it will migrate FROM the WOM system. Not "to" the WoM system. So it will be even less like WoM.

[KevinC]

What does this mean, Beta4 will be more like WOM?

Away from the WoM system, not migrating the WoM system to the game.

[Brad Wardell]

What does this mean, Beta4 will be more like WOM?

No, the current economy is still kind of WOM-ish. It's a hybrid.

Beta 4 will be the implementation of Derek's economic design.

For example, WOM cities tended to be huge (on the map). This had the side effect of limiting the number of actual improvements to choose from to build because cities became a navigational hazard.

FE beta 1..3 have a modified version of this (they got rid of housing) but we're still limited on how many improvements we can have because they end up taking up so much space.

But in Beta 4, the improvements tend to go up a "path". So a player upgrades X into Y into Z. Then, players can instantly look at a city (because it'll be much smaller) and see how advanced it is. Plus, the economy will be based on city level rather than population which will make the system more intuitive when playing and better balanced.

Beta 4 also will have the Outpost system completed. Right now, you just spam out outposts. But in Beta 4, they're a bit more like star bases in GalCiv where you can upgrade them and fortify them.

[Alstein]

Glad on that last point, outposts were too spammable and too easy to raze

Are you guys going to bring the two factions (Capitar and I believe Urxen) back as well? 8 factions really isn't enough.

[TurinTur]

8 factions are really enough. I would prefer to increase their difference than to bring 2 more factions.

[Brad Wardell]

Glad on that last point, outposts were too spammable and too easy to raze

Are you guys going to bring the two factions (Capitar and I believe Urxen) back as well? 8 factions really isn't enough.

Players can still make as many factions as they'd like. What we are looking to do is reduce the number of races.

Personally, if we had to start over, I'd have it down to 4 dramatically different races: Men, Ironeer (Dwarves), Quendar (Evil Elves), and Trog (Orcs).

As it is, we have the above, plus the Mancers (Royalty), Tarth (Rebels), Wraiths, and Kraxis (Scoundrels).

Derek's done a pretty good job coming up with interesting ways to make each race distinct. But I would really love to remove at least Tarth and Kraxis since, ultimately, they're just Men and take their abilities and spread them to the remaining races.

Players can still create as many factions as they want. I play with 20+ factions in my games. I'd just like to see fewer underlying races.

[Armando Penblade]

Players can still make as many factions as they'd like. What we are looking to do is reduce the number of races.

Personally, if we had to start over, I'd have it down to 4 dramatically different races: Men, Ironeer (Dwarves), Quendar (Evil Elves), and Trog (Orcs).

As it is, we have the above, plus the Mancers (Royalty), Tarth (Rebels), Wraiths, and Kraxis (Scoundrels).

Derek's done a pretty good job coming up with interesting ways to make each race distinct. But I would really love to remove at least Tarth and Kraxis since, ultimately, they're just Men and take their abilities and spread them to the remaining races.

Players can still create as many factions as they want. I play with 20+ factions in my games. I'd just like to see fewer underlying races.

Honestly, I really loved the idea of race and nation being separate. . . with the disadvantage that they really weren't, since there was a 1:1 distribution of "races" to playable factions.

But really, I love the idea of actual political strife within fantasy races rather than simple monolithic governments/religions within each Tolkien-knockoff supergroup. Why not have a nation of gold-crazed miner-dwarves. . . who are looked down upon as greedy, possibly autistic filth-dwelvers by their city-dwelling dwarven cousins down in the foothills? That sort of thing.

Maybe someday, Brad :D

[LeeArac]

I can't see more variety as a bad thing, ever, particularly in the context of a singleplayer game. Those 10-12 different MoM races were a huge part of the charm.

[TurinTur]

Races in Master of Magic were a bit a weak point imo, they were not that different. You could notice they were still coming from the Civilization mindset.

[KevinC]

I can't see more variety as a bad thing, ever, particularly in the context of a singleplayer game. Those 10-12 different MoM races were a huge part of the charm.

Sometimes less is more. Four very different, very distinct races is better than 16 races with small differences, IMO.

[Angrycoder]

Races in Master of Magic were a bit a weak point imo, they were not that different. You could notice they were still coming from the Civilization mindset.

my Halfling Slingers hit you in the mouth for 500 damage you make you shut the fuck up.

[Alstein]

I could live with fewer races and more sovereigns, including sovereigns playing the same race (which should have impacts on unrest and other things)

Also , plenty of the new options you put in the last couple of betas can't be picked in custom sovereigns anyways right now.

[Blips]

my Halfling Slingers hit you in the mouth for 500 damage you make you shut the fuck up.
http://plus4chan.org/b/tek/src/129282686850.gif

[TurinTur]

In fact, I'm still waiting for a fantasy TBS where the elves are immortal so they don't grow and expand like the rest of factions, the undead are truly undead controlled by a necromancer and don't need morale improvements in their cities (/rolleyes), where choosing being an evil overlord feels different than a good leader (instead of having just a slight different bonus to unrest), where the requisites and use of the schools of magic are really different, etc.

[TurinTur]

my Halfling Slingers hit you in the mouth for 500 damage you make you shut the fuck up.

You know Halfings are some lazy fatty fucks which never would win a straight war, but precisely because they weren't well represented in the game, they could do 500 damage.

Thank you for proving my point, good day sir!

[marxeil]

No, the current economy is still kind of WOM-ish. It's a hybrid.

Beta 4 will be the implementation of Derek's economic design.

For example, WOM cities tended to be huge (on the map). This had the side effect of limiting the number of actual improvements to choose from to build because cities became a navigational hazard.

FE beta 1..3 have a modified version of this (they got rid of housing) but we're still limited on how many improvements we can have because they end up taking up so much space.

But in Beta 4, the improvements tend to go up a "path". So a player upgrades X into Y into Z. Then, players can instantly look at a city (because it'll be much smaller) and see how advanced it is. Plus, the economy will be based on city level rather than population which will make the system more intuitive when playing and better balanced.

Beta 4 also will have the Outpost system completed. Right now, you just spam out outposts. But in Beta 4, they're a bit more like star bases in GalCiv where you can upgrade them and fortify them.
Thanks for the clarification. I read requirement documents all day and tend to be a nitpicker about these things.

[Brad Wardell]

I can't see more variety as a bad thing, ever, particularly in the context of a singleplayer game. Those 10-12 different MoM races were a huge part of the charm.

I agree.

There's really no limit in the # of factions you can have.

When you play the game, you can create your own faction from one of the 10 "Races" (including the Urxen and Capitar).

Broadly speaking, when the fiction lore conflicts with the needs of the game, we tend to side with the needs of the game.

So you have two ideologies -- the Kingdoms and the Empires. But then have 8 unique factions made up by 5 races. And that lack of 1 to N ratio is challenging:

The Trogs are only represented by 1 faction: Yithril
The Quendar are only represented by 1 faction: Magnar
The Wraith are only represented by 1 faction: Resoln
But Men are represented by 4 factions: Altar, Pariden, Kraxis, and Tarth.

Here's a diagram:
http://screencast.com/t/EDKKWmoOs2z

Blue = Kingdom, Red = Empire.

The UI / gameplay challenge is that each faction listed above gets its own special ability that we tie to their "blood". But if Altar, Tarth, Pariden, and Kraxis are all of the race of men, the in-game explanation as to why they have their own unique abilities becomes problematic.

For example, if I create a faction called Mordor and choose the Trogs as their race, they will have the special abilities of the Trogs.

But if I create a faction called Gondor, they can choose between any of the 4 races of men. It isn't as...neat as I'd like.

Obviously, in the books (including the 1 published one), there's plenty of narrative time to go over the races of "men" and the races of "Fallen" since (a) there's plenty of space to do so and (b) it's told from the POV of men so it's okay to shuffle all the non-men into their own category.

Bottom line: It's a UI challenge having what amounts to 4 races of men with their own names.

[ydejin]

So you have two ideologies -- the Kingdoms and the Empires. But then have 8 unique factions made up by 5 races. And that lack of 1 to N ratio is challenging:

The Trogs are only represented by 1 faction: Yithril
The Quendar are only represented by 1 faction: Magnar
The Wraith are only represented by 1 faction: Resoln
But Men are represented by 4 factions: Altar, Pariden, Kraxis, and Tarth.

Here's a diagram:
http://screencast.com/t/EDKKWmoOs2z

Blue = Kingdom, Red = Empire.

I like the work that you all are doing with the faction differences. But I really don't understand the difference between Kingdom and Empire. It thought they were supposed to have distinctly different technology (is that the way it worked in the original Elemental, maybe that's why I'm a bit confused), but in my limited time playing Empire (I played a lot of Kingdom in Beta 1) it seemed like the Empire tech tree was almost identical to the Kingdom tech tree, perhaps with a few minor differences on what allies you could make. Are there other differences between Kingdom and Empire?

[Alstein]

There really aren't many differences- the big one being life magic vs death magic (which is a concept that causes a few problems even know- especially for Krax)

[TurinTur]

No new beta until July :/
http://forums.elementalgame.com/426797

[RepoMan]

Fine with me, I'm sure revising the whole city system is a major job and they want to tune it internally before making a beta out of it. Good for them! Carry on, boys!

[Destarius]

You know Halfings are some lazy fatty fucks which never would win a straight war, but precisely because they weren't well represented in the game, they could do 500 damage.

Thank you for proving my point, good day sir!

You and your racist stereotypes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Rageblade_Halflings_(3.5e_Race)) can leave right now, sir!

[Jason Lutes]

Fine with me, I'm sure revising the whole city system is a major job and they want to tune it internally before making a beta out of it. Good for them! Carry on, boys!
QFT.5

[TurinTur]

At least new info!
http://forums.elementalgame.com/427621

[Sarkus]

So where do you guys that are following this think its at? We are, after all, pushing towards two years since Elemental was released and while I've long since stopped really caring, there is a part of me that thinks a) that is ridiculous given promises made after the mess of a launch and b) that I don't get the sense that people are all that excited about what Fallen Enchantress is shaping up to be.

But I haven't bothered with the beta, so maybe I'm missing something?

[TurinTur]

You are missing a good fantasy TBS.

[ydejin]

You are missing a good fantasy TBS.

I played extensively in Beta 1 and it was already great fun. I think this has huge potential.

[ydejin]

At least new info!
http://forums.elementalgame.com/427621

Hmm, some stuff I like, some stuff I'm nervous about. The Fort/Enclave/Town distinction sounds like it could be interesting. The upgrading existing facilities instead of creating additional facilities makes sense. The outpost stuff might be fun.

I'm nervous about "Everything in Beta4 builds faster, but there is a lot more to build." I don't really want to be building more stuff. That makes the game fiddly, where every turn or every few turns I have to deal with a build queue somewhere. That does not sound fun to me.

[TurinTur]

I don't agree, production queues were a bit too long, with most stuff needed 15-25 turns to build.

[Disconnected]

So where do you guys that are following this think its at?

Not ready for prime time yet.

Lots of GUI fixes, but the evident design philosophy remains that making stuff smaller and prettier beats making them intelligible and functional every single time. I'm increasingly sure FE will always be marred by a very neatly piled shitpile of a GUI.

Similar story with tactical combat. The basic rules framework is just too simple to be any fun. Having oodles of ways for playing pieces to attack each other is great, but when it's as primitive as "move per unit profile and attack per unit profile", there's simply not tactical room for anything interesting. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like this is likely to change.

Strat and tech we can talk about when the next beta drops.

Sooo... Temporary, badly informed verdict: FE will be a between solid and outstanding 4X with a really shitty interface and a tactical combat element nobody will want to use. But it is not ready for prime time yet. It's buggy and there's no semblance of game balance there yet. However, if there was, the game is already in a state where you probably wouldn't regret wasting 10-30 hours of your life on it - assuming you like 4X games.

[DKDArtagnan]

Changes sound fantastic, all-round.

[Alstein]

I agree on the flaws listed, but I think the game is good already despite these flaws, with the potential to be great if the flaws are fixed.

[Razgon]

Tactical combat really needs some facelifting - Its always been weird to me that they didnt just copy paste Master of Magics combat system and used that. Or even Age of Wonders - that worked pretty well as well. currently, the tactical combat system is kinda boring, and the only reason I use it, is that I can get out of almost every fight a lot better than if I let the AI do it.

The rest though, is actually pretty fun. There's some pacing issues still with city building and tech research, but as it stands, that part wouldnt be negative if released today.

I LOVE upgrading my heroes though - to me they are the super part of the game that should be catered to.

Oh, that, and we need dungeons of course! AS PROMISED 11 YEARS AGO! ;-)

[TurinTur]

It's already very like MoM tactical combat. It's not like MoM combat was especially good.

[Razgon]

It's already very like MoM tactical combat. It's not like MoM combat was especially good.

Its not like MoM tactical combat, actually. There are no walls around cities for one.

[Disconnected]

It's already very like MoM tactical combat. It's not like MoM combat was especially good.

That's not really true at all. I'll grant you that there's a lot of superficial similarities, and that MoM combat is boring as hell most of the time. But conceptually they're entirely different beasts.

MoM is in the Disciples design school; what you have on the field of battle is 10% of what you can do.

FE is in the Heroes of Might & Magic design school; what you have on the field of battle is 90% of what you can do.

The former approach is all about modifying your proxy to your needs. The latter is all about creating the proxy you need. The nature of the stack you throw around in FE is super important. In MoM the nature of the stack isn't terribly significant, what matters is how you can affect it.

I use Disciples & HoMM as the archetypes because despite chronology, they kind of are.

In Disciples combat based on the playing pieces is a foregone conclusion. There's always only one right thing to do in combat, regardless of the playing pieces involved. If not for the modifiers you pile on the stacks, it would be the most mindless, boring, and entirely un-tactical combat in video gaming history.
While in HoMM there's not a whole lot you can do, beyond building up a seriously kick-ass stack, and the tactical decisions you make in combat with roughly evenly matched stacks makes all the difference in the world.

FEs biggest problem is that the nature of the stack is almost as important as in HoMM, while the tactical depth is more shallow than MoMs. It's kind of the worst of both worlds. But squarely in the HoMM school of design, not in the Disciples school.

An almost as great secondary problem, however, is that FE just doesn't lend itself to HoMM type combat. It's a vastly more complex game, with vastly more potential for asymmetry. Tactical depth needs to be much greater than it is in HoMM, not even shallower. Potential stacks of doom needs to have small, fast-built counters that either are natural hard counters, or can be delivered in circumstances that makes them so (terrain advantage, for example). Otherwise map randomisation alone can pre-determine the outcome of a match, if the AI is any kind of capable.

FE really, really needs to borrow some traditional wargame elements. It's the only way I can imagine combat could stop sucking. Unfortunately I'm very confident that won't happen. SD has been nothing but dismissive of suggestions to that effect so far. And hey, I really hope they do know what they're doing. They might. I just think there'd be at least some vague hint of potential in the tactical combat at this point, if they did know what they were doing.

[Razgon]

Thanks Disconnected - you said it quite eloquently, and I completely agree, even though I never thought of those archetypes of games.

[WarrenD]

That was well written Disconnected, I'm not getting involved in the beta so this really painted a picture as to where the tactical part of the game is at, although disappointing.

[Telefrog]

Hmmm. Did we not have a post about the images released for Beta 4?

Check out the new cloth map!

http://www.gamebanshee.com/phpthumb/phpThumb.php?src=../images/com_sobi2/gallery/1751/NewClothMap.jpg&h=600

[Mr. Zero]

This may fix Telefrog's link. (http://www.gamebanshee.com/games/elemental-war-of-magic-fallen-enchantress.html?tab=images)

[Kael]

Lots of good stuff to check out. http://gamingshogun.com/2012/07/11/new-fallen-enchantress-screenshots/

It does kill me a little inside that those screenshot's have the old cloth map rivers in them, the new ones look better. But such is the nature of game development, there is always another improvement to display.

[Derbain]

Looking good!

[jpinard]

Lots of good stuff to check out. http://gamingshogun.com/2012/07/11/new-fallen-enchantress-screenshots/

It does kill me a little inside that those screenshot's have the old cloth map rivers in them, the new ones look better. But such is the nature of game development, there is always another improvement to display.

The figurine pieces on the cloth map are just gorgeous. I know it's weird to zero in on such a small detail... but I look at the bases of those figurines and the attention to detail is fantastic. I gotta get my motherboard replaced soon so I can give this some major time.

[ydejin]

Any word on how far off Beta 4 is?

[KevinC]

I thought it was supposed to be sometime this month, but I'm not sure.

[Kael]

We haven't announced a release for beta 4 yet. We went from having no releases last year to releases tripping over each other (a good position to be in). Our QA is a bit jam packed with Political Machine, Sins patch and some business software updates. We also have some UI things we are working on. So it won't be this month, looks like early next month.

BtW, we have lots of improvements in Beta 4, I talk about them here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/427621. But my favorite recent change is that I have the ability to have goodie huts give a rarity of item if I want.

In Beta3 some good goodie huts give a random item, common items are more common than uncommon which are more common than rare items. Other goodie huts give a random item form a list of 5 specific items I've specified (so if you kill a wilding warrior and you examine his lair you get one of 5 items).

With Beta4 I've set Wilding warrior lairs (for example) to give any random common item. So instead of 1 out of 5 items, you get 1 out of 40. The end effect is that there is a lot more variety in the type of items you can find.

Also the tougher monsters can give uncommon items which come from a much larger selection of good stuff. And in the wildland areas you can get rare items, if you go in and fight for them. So you dont go into a wildland area, find a treasure chest and end up getting some common item you could have got on the 3rd turn.

It sounds like a little dumb thing, and from a coding perspective it is a fairly little dumb thing. But its made a huge difference in my games and I'm having fun with it.

[TurinTur]

I thought the point of betas was to have free QA!! :P

[Kael]

I thought the point of betas was to have free QA!! :P

Free QA? Nah, the point of betas is to have people pay you to do QA. ;)

In all seriousness the major goal of betas is to advertise and to get balance/gameplay feedback. Both of which are difficult to do if bugs are getting in the way.

[BigWeather]

I stupidly didn't get in on this early enough to be involved in beta. Really looking forward to release, everything seems to be coming along nicely!

[Giaddon]

I'm pretty sure that if you pre-order the game, you get access to the beta.

[BigWeather]

Really? I thought that was just a "must have committed to Elemental in the past" thing... If not, yeah, I need to do that. Thanks!

[Kael]

Yes, anyone who preorders gets immediate access to the beta. You can preorder here: http://www.elementalgame.com/fallen-enchantress

[KevinC]

Besides, BigWeather, if it was based on having bought Elemental previously, I'd say you were one of the smart/lucky ones, not stupid. ;)

[Chuck]

That's how I got into the beta.

[BigWeather]

Besides, BigWeather, if it was based on having bought Elemental previously, I'd say you were one of the smart/lucky ones, not stupid. ;)

Now, now. =) Elemental may have been a klunker but it looks like they're making right by those customers so it's all good!

About to pull the trigger on pre-ordering. Searching around it looks like Stardock wants to bring FE to Steam -- will pre-orders be able to activate a key to have them Steam managed as well?

[Alstein]

They've said no to this every time it's been asked in the past.

Just wish the next beta wasn't so far off, sounds really interesting.

[BigWeather]

They've said no to this every time it's been asked in the past.

Ah, ok. Sorry I wasn't more diligent in finding that out before asking again. It's a shame that it won't be Steam linkable, but oh well.

[KevinC]

That's definitely one of the scenarios I take advantage of during a really good Steam sale. At some point Fallen Enchantress will be $4.99 or $7.49 and at that price point I'll add it to my Steam library, assuming it turns out as fun as it's sounding. Until then, Stardock Central should work for me.

[Brad Wardell]

Now, now. =) Elemental may have been a klunker but it looks like they're making right by those customers so it's all good!

About to pull the trigger on pre-ordering. Searching around it looks like Stardock wants to bring FE to Steam -- will pre-orders be able to activate a key to have them Steam managed as well?

If I had to guess, I'd say no. Because we're giving it to everyone who bought WOM in 2010 and I'm not sure if we're allowed to let those be used on Steam since they were technically purchased on Impulse.

[malkav11]

If I had to guess, I'd say no. Because we're giving it to everyone who bought WOM in 2010 and I'm not sure if we're allowed to let those be used on Steam since they were technically purchased on Impulse.

I'd ask Steam. I know I've registered several games on Steam that I purchased elsewhere before they even came to Steam, such as AI War and expansions, Analogue: A Hate Story (there it wasn't so much that the same key worked on Steam as that she would provide Steam keys on request), and Fate of the World. On the other hand, there have been other games that haven't, and I haven't been able to do the same yet with A Valley Without Wind, though they are apparently working on it.

[BigWeather]

If I had to guess, I'd say no. Because we're giving it to everyone who bought WOM in 2010 and I'm not sure if we're allowed to let those be used on Steam since they were technically purchased on Impulse.

That's cool -- like said upthread I'm sure it'll go on sale on Steam eventually for some double-dipping.

[Pyperkub]

Kael - quick question. Are all the controls remappable? Specifically mouse ones like the camera zoom, tilt and rotate?

This is the kind of game that will live on my laptop, and I don't want to cart a mouse around with it. Touchpad is ok but it doesn't have a scroll wheel.

[Harkonis]

Every time I see this bumped I keep hoping it's finally out.

[Alstein]

I doubt we see it officially released this year, since Beta 4 isn't until mid-August, and there is going to be a Beta 5. Stardock has finally mastered the concept of Valve time.

[TurinTur]

I doubt we see it officially released this year, since Beta 4 isn't until mid-August, and there is going to be a Beta 5. Stardock has finally mastered the concept of Valve time.

Don't quote me, but I think they are aiming for a Fall release. Beta 4 will be the last one where they change systems in the game, Beta 5 could be in Sept, and release in October.

[rezaf]

Is there a comparison available that outlines the most important changes (hopefully improvements) from Elemental?

I recently picked it up for $5, and ... I guess we had an entire thread about all the negative things that can be said about it, and I guess most of those things HAVE indeed been said multiple times, so let me just say, I don't even think it was worth that pretty low price...
_____
rezaf

[TurinTur]

Is there a comparison available that outlines the most important changes (hopefully improvements) from Elemental?

I recently picked it up for $5, and ... I guess we had an entire thread about all the negative things that can be said about it, and I guess most of those things HAVE indeed been said multiple times, so let me just say, I don't even think it was worth that pretty low price...
_____
rezaf

Basically every feature have been redone, or touched up/polished:

Interface
Ingame help
Performance
AI
Tactical combat
Diplomacy
Dynasty system (in this case, it was eliminated)
Research tree
Faction differences
Items/quests
City production system
Graphics/art
Spells
Character progression
etc

It's still "Elemental 1.5", I don't think anyone can say "wow it's a radically new game!", but let's say the incremental upgrades in each area adds up and at the end the final experience is much much better.

[rezaf]

Thanks Turin, I figured most everything was "touched" in one way or the other.
I was thinking something like Used to be: <screenshot>, is now <screenshot>, <explanatory text>.

Again, I don't want to make a list here of the things that I disliked, this is the FE thread, and the dead should not be disturbed.
_____
rezaf

[TurinTur]

There are articles explaining the differences, read the journal section in the official Site (still elementalgame.com) , but it's all distributed in several articles. Search the beta 1, 2, 3 and 4 previews / status articles, and a few ones about factions, magic, etc

It would be nice a real, final summary yeah (do you hear Brad?). It would serve to convince the people disappointed with Elemental.

[rezaf]

Thanks Turin.
Here's hoping someone will bother to make an in-depth comparison upon FE's release.
_____
rezaf

[Zeitgeist]

So, is this 'Fallen Enchantress' the villain in this game or do you actually play as her?

[Jon Shafer]

So, is this 'Fallen Enchantress' the villain in this game or do you actually play as her?
She's the bad guy. Errr... girl.

- Jon

[TurinTur]

Lies, the campaign for this game doesn't exist! Everyone knows your job is control Brad from the shadows!

[Brad Wardell]

Lies, the campaign for this game doesn't exist! Everyone knows your job is control Brad from the shadows!

Destroy him, my robots.

[instant0]

Ah, that reminds me. I should perhaps finish up one campaign in GalCiv2 instead of making new ones, and, possibly check out FE. :-)

[Brad Wardell]

I hate campaigns.

But I do think Jon has easily made the best campaign we've made. It doesn't hurt that it has a real-live story written by a fantasy author (Dave Stern).

But I'm a sandbox game guy myself.

[instant0]

Well, naturally I meant my own games. I call them campaigns, in that, they are "Campaigns to conquer the galaxy". But I suppose there is no harm in actually trying a pre-defined campaign, be in in GalCiv2 or any other game.

Come to think of it, I have never actually picked the campaign option in any game that offered a custom mode instead, except for the "X:" games.

Speaking of Campaigns; I suppose FE has several?

[Brad Wardell]

Here's a quickie AAR I did on pre-beta 4. Has some screenshots that show some pretty dramatic UI changes.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/428962

[lordkosc]

Looking good, and the spell book has organisation by the look of that photo!

[Brad Wardell]

Here's a quick video:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/429259

Beta 4 should be out this week (fingers crossed).

[ydejin]

Beta 4 should be out this week (fingers crossed).

Yay!!

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Yup, and we have the new change log for the upcoming Beta 4 (http://forums.elementalgame.com/429319) That's a good thing for me because I am itching to play something and was tired of trying and failing Hearts of Iron 2.

[Brad Wardell]

Here's a really long (42 minute) play-through from today:

http://youtu.be/65rtyTNRrjQ

[lordkosc]

Cool, will watch that now. :)

My only issue is that there are still a ton of pop-ups when you first explore the map (as you are finding gold and such), and even while you were playing, you just sort of clicked them OK without reading them because you have seen them probably a million times. I'd be happier if they just scrolled up on the right side of the screen and we could mouse over them to read them if we wanted.

[TurinTur]

Hmm doing a summary from the changelog:

-New resource: Essence
-3 types of cities
-Upgradeable improvements
-Upgradeable Outposts
-8 types of upgrades for Outposts
-Some interface windows redone
-20 new building improvement
-1 new ability
-2 new techs
-Summon Familiar/Imp spell
-5 new city enchantment
-8 new items
-And of course lots of fixes, balance changes, etc, some interesting changes:

*Adjusted all lair wandering spawns so they don't spawn immediately and are less likely to spawn each turn
*Lowered the electoral count of Wisconsin
*All damage from spells is halved if resisted
*Path of the Governor Increases Growth in the city the champion is in
*All champions reduce Unrest when they are in a city, sovereigns and Path of the Governor champions reduce it even further.
*All world resources effect tile yields (give greater variance to yield distribution)
*City Enchantments don't have maintenance (since they are limited by the cities Essence)
*Quests no longer require techs- Their difficulty is given in the popup, be careful going on quests you aren't ready for
*You must own a city for 5 turns before you can raze it
*Building improvements on wild resources goes into the nearest cities production queue
*Building outpost upgrades goes into the nearest cities production queue
*Many resource improvements can be upgraded with later techs to get better versions (that produce more metal, crystal, mana, etc)
*Halved shop costs (sell costs remain the same)
*Blunt weapons have a chance to knock a victim prone
*Outposts aren't destroyed if an enemy unit steps on one, instead they are flipped to that players control
*All new Cloth map mode
*Replaced all the ability icons

[Razgon]

Its shaping up *very* nicely!

There's still a few things I'd have loved to see back in, but perhaps the next time around :-)

(Yes, its the dungeons and the dynasty, dammit!)

[BleedTheFreak]

Lookin' like it's on the right track. Very cool. I'm still going to avoid betas though, but I'll almost certainly check it out when it's finished!

[Mr. Zero]

I am going to write gorgeous AARs for this game.

[RichVR]

*Lowered the electoral count of Wisconsin

Did I miss something about this game?

[KevinC]

Did I miss something about this game?

Haha good catch! I'm assuming a Political Machine note snuck in there.

[Jag]

I'm growing a little tired of the lack of depth and challenge in Warlock, it looks like FE may satisfy that need. Think I may hold off on the betas as well though.

[Mark L]

Dude, ask pretty much any army in history and they'll tell ya: you do NOT need to hold a city for 5 turns before you can raze it :p

[TurinTur]

That's perhaps the only changed I disliked. It seems so unintuitive!

[Alstein]

Dude, ask pretty much any army in history and they'll tell ya: you do NOT need to hold a city for 5 turns before you can raze it :p

I'd like it to be city level based.

[Kael]

Dude, ask pretty much any army in history and they'll tell ya: you do NOT need to hold a city for 5 turns before you can raze it :p

:)

It's a change I struggled with too. I don't like the concept of it, once you have a resource, you should be able to do with it as you want. But the impact on the game overall is a definite improvement. It's s micro vs macro mechanic.

At the micro level it doesn't make a ton of sense (personally I don't put much stock in whats realistic, its all about what makes the game better), and its biggest disadvantage is that it puts a barrier on a player action that will cause them a little confusion. Don't stop players from doing things if you can help it.

But on the positive side it ends the steal and burn gameplay. You grab an enemy city that you can't possible hold, they are coming back to retake it, so you raze it. The city is gone and the end result is that the defending player just lost a massive investment because his units were 2 turns away.

I know that their should be some punishment for losing a city. We handle those through other means, losing a city, even for a few turns, is never a good thing. It was just to punishing. If we would have had the AI doing it to players they would have hated life.


I'd like it to be city level based.

Making these mechanics variable makes them harder to understand for most players. Unless that variance is really critical to gameplay (ie: some units taking longer to train than others) you are usually better off with flat, easy to understand mechanics.

I noticed that with the champion immobilization mechanic. It was based on level so that if you died when you were low level you spent a few turns in a city and then you were back out. But at high levels it was a much bigger deal. It worked out well conceptually, we wanted players to risk their low level guys but a loss to mean something for your powerful folks.

But it got confusing, I couldn't plan around it (always a bad sign in a strategy game). We showed all the info, champion 1 was immobilized for 12 turns and champion 2 was immobilized for 4 turns. I knew why (though more causal players wouldn't) and even for me it was a somewhat random detail that I had to deal with.

Switching it to a flat 5 turns immobilized when a champion dies removed the variance and created a predictable effect whenever my champions died. As a player the action always feels the same. I understand it, I don't need to figure out why its different in situation A then B and I go on with my game.

Differing raze times on cities is the same. It sounds good, has a nice gameplay impact (harder to raze large cities than small ones) and it makes sense. But, in my opinion, it isn't worth the small catch of that variance and having to understand the algorithym to understand why the game isn't letting you do something.

[TurinTur]

:)
Making these mechanics variable makes them harder to understand for most players.

The bigger the city, the more time needs an occupying army to raze it.
The ratio is direct, level 1 city needs 1 turn, level 3 city needs 3 turns.


...What was the part hard to understand, again?

[Razgon]

Why is it so hard to be polite?

[TurinTur]

Why is it so hard to be polite?

Never passed my mind I was being impolite. Just expressing that it seems easy to understand with a little bit of irony.

[Dan_Theman]

Kael - what about simply making it take four extra turns to complete the raze? That seems like it would get over mental gymnastics. If the city is retaken within that time span, it's still intact. Maybe have a little smoke effect for the city, and have a pop-up for the player if they've discovered it to alert them "x number of turns until (city name) is demolished."

[TurinTur]

Kael - what about simply making it take four extra turns to complete the raze? That seems like it would get over mental gymnastics. If the city is retaken within that time span, it's still intact. Maybe have a little smoke effect for the city, and have a pop-up for the player if they've discovered it to alert them "x number of turns until (city name) is demolished."

That's another option I like. "Raze" as a process that need x turns to be done. I think maybe a past 4x used it?

[Alstein]

AOW did this, and it worked well.

I'd like to see a repopulate city option, where you can transfer some pop from your other cities, and re-gain the cities militia. This can increase unrest though.

[Razgon]

Never passed my mind I was being impolite. Just expressing that it seems easy to understand with a little bit of irony.

Ah, I misread you then - Sorry!

[slikster]

*Outposts aren't destroyed if an enemy unit steps on one, instead they are flipped to that players control

And if a monster steps on it?

Looking forward to the final build. I haven't played since the first few releases. Was promising then, but don't want to get burnt out.

[DeepT]

A city should take turns to raze proportional to how big it is. Also, how long is a turn anyway? A large army could raze small vile USA in a day or two. NYC on the other hand would take a very long time, not to mention LA because how spread out it is.

Each turn should also damage the city so that if it is recaptured, it still has been partially razed.

[KevinC]

Realism doesn't necessarily equate to good game mechanics, especially since this isn't a sim.

[DeepT]

True, but you can still consider it when coming up with a game mechanic. In this case, cities have a population and occupy tiles. It would be simple to say that each turn one tile is destroyed and the population that qualifies to have that tile is also destroyed. So if the city is recaptured before it is completely gone, it is captured in a reduced state.

This would be much better than if it takes 5 turns to raze a city, and it is captured back on turn 4, the city is almost un-touched. It is also better than just saying every city, no matter how big or small takes the same 5 turns to raze.

[rezaf]

This is really not an aspect of the game that'll make my blood boil if implemented one way vs. the other, but that said, I agree with DeepT.
I also think it'd be very cool if looting <> razing. Looting a city should "damage" a city and population, requiring some time to recover.
But the infrastructure itself should merely take "minor" damage.
While razing, in other words physically removing the city, burning it to the ground and damaging it beyond repair, should take considerably more time and effort. This is far, FAR less common than looting historically (Carthage being a prominent example) and should be genuinely hard and require effort to pull off.

I'm sure FE is too far along to make such substantial changes though, and like I wrote, I won't get worked up one bit if it'll end up at "must own the city x turns".
_____
rezaf

[DKDArtagnan]

Alternatively, make it possible to raze a city in 1 turn - but let it be rebuildable for 5 turns with an increasingly high cost.

[DKDArtagnan]

BTW, is there an ETA for when beta 4 is out today?

[TurinTur]

Is going to be out today?

[Brad Wardell]

It's staged. I imagine they're waiting until after lunch (EST).

For anyone interested, I plan to make a complaint video this week with Derek where we go over some of the things we still need to do.

[Telefrog]

I'm pretty excited to check out beta 4. The videos have been looking good, Brad!

[Mysterio]

I'm currently downloading the 0.950 update, so it's now available.

[Mysterio]

Brad:

The patch notes say, "New pictures on the load screen," but I've never had pictures on my load screen during the beta. All I have is the sword cursor on a black screen until the main menu appears.

[Brad Wardell]

Brad:

The patch notes say, "New pictures on the load screen," but I've never had pictures on my load screen during the beta. All I have is the sword cursor on a black screen until the main menu appears.

That's bad. I blame Kael. ;)

I'll ask about that to see what could cause it.

[KevinC]

I haven't played Elemental (any version) since release date, never fired up FE until now. You guys have been busy, apparently. Also, load screen showed up fine for me.

One thing I'm unclear on, how do the resource amounts (grain/materials/essence) on terrain work? Does a city gain all the resources from tiles under the ZoC? Do they have to be 'worked' like the Civ series?

[TurinTur]

This is a silly question about a small detail but:

Is the Faction differentation finishend? Because there are some perks in the faction creator that aren't used by any factions in game. Things like assassin's tools or Legacy Serrane.

Or are only for custom factions? In that case, it seems almost a "waste".

[RichVR]

So after reading this thread and spending time on the official forums I really want to get in on this. Is the current build a good time to get into the beta?

[Dreamshadow]

Need to look into this one more... but every time I see the title, I'm reminded of the painting from 'Allo 'Allo...

[ydejin]

So after reading this thread and spending time on the official forums I really want to get in on this. Is the current build a good time to get into the beta?

To early to say how stable it is. But the game was a lot of fun in earlier builds, so it really depends on how much you want to be playing now vs. waiting for it to be fully polished. I think most people will have a lot of fun with the game even if it's in a Beta state.

[TurinTur]

More feedback: when I decline a quest because I notice too late it was "Epic", I don't want the quest to disappear. It should be still on the map so I can try to do it later when I level up. Like in every RPG ever.

[ydejin]

More feedback: when I decline a quest because I notice too late it was "Epic", I don't want the quest to disappear. It should be still on the map so I can try to do it later when I level up. Like in every RPG ever.

Definitely agree. Just ran into this myself and had the same issue. I suspect you can just take the quest and not finish it for a long time (is there a limit to how many quests you can have). But I think it should stay on the map.

Also I don't see a good indication of where to go when I finish a quest. I think it might have briefly flashed the location, but there were a bunch of quest locations and I'm not sure which one it was. It would be nice to have a little magnifying glass icon on each of the quests on the quest log and when you clicked on it, it would zoom either to the quest location or the quest turn-in place depending on current quest status.

[Kael]

Brad:

The patch notes say, "New pictures on the load screen," but I've never had pictures on my load screen during the beta. All I have is the sword cursor on a black screen until the main menu appears.

That means the "Creating World" screen where its loading. After you have picked your sovereign and game options.


This is a silly question about a small detail but:

Is the Faction differentation finishend? Because there are some perks in the faction creator that aren't used by any factions in game. Things like assassin's tools or Legacy Serrane.

Or are only for custom factions? In that case, it seems almost a "waste".

They are for custom factions.


More feedback: when I decline a quest because I notice too late it was "Epic", I don't want the quest to disappear. It should be still on the map so I can try to do it later when I level up. Like in every RPG ever.

Hmm.... yeah I see what you mean. Most (if not all quests) allow you to accept them and then when you get to the first battle you have the choice to attack or come back later. But I can see how that wouldn't be intuitive. I'll see about changing it so that rejecting a quest initially doesn't clear it form the map.

[Mysterio]

That means the "Creating World" screen where its loading. After you have picked your sovereign and game options.

Aha! My PC remains flawless and friendly to all software! ;-)

[RichVR]

Okay I'm in. Just finished the tutorial and so far it looks good.

[Nephrinn]

Very impressed with the beta so far. Things have definitely improved and already I'm finding myself having fun.

Love the leveling system and how rare traits may pop up to make decisions much more interesting.

I like how it forces you to designate how a city functions too, which I assume breaks away from the path of building the same things in each city.

Now I'm just wondering what's left between now and release.

[Kael]

Now I'm just wondering what's left between now and release.

Drinking!

Oh wait, I mean polish.

[KevinC]

So can anyone answer a question regarding founding cities? When you start, you can see the tile yields in grain/materials/essence. When I place the city, does it only matter the specific tile I set it on? Or does it use all the tile yields in a radius, or what?

[Brad Wardell]

Only that tile matters.

[Mr. Zero]

I have a suggestion: instead of giving tile yields numerically, use graphics like Civ 4 did. Much easier at a glance to assess the quality of a potential city, since our brain can count 1-5 icons much quicker than it can read a number

[RichVR]

I think I'm playing wrong. So far I have yet to experience a bug. I'm just having fun. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?

Edit: Actually I have a problem. Please turn up the saturation a bit. More colors. Not WOW color, but just a bit more color?

[DKDArtagnan]

Played for a bit, and it's just getting better and better. It has so many great features and seems like a very rich game. If they add multiplayer - I think this just might exceed Master of Magic on release. Also, it actually does have some of that elusive charm that so few strategy games manage these days.

Also, I'll second the non-numerical suggestion above. Not only is it harder to read at a glance - it's also less tangible and makes it feel ever so slightly more like a spreadsheet. It's so very important to make it feel "real" even in these small ways.

That was one of the things that MoM and MoO2 did right. Most things were little icons of stuff - rather than straight up numbers.

[Alstein]

Icons instead of numbers for tile yields could work, if it doesn't make it too busy.

Maybe it could be something you get numbers when it's zoomed out, icons when it's zoomed in, with an option in the graphics for numbers only?

[TurinTur]

Edit: Actually I have a problem. Please turn up the saturation a bit. More colors. Not WOW color, but just a bit more color?

I don't know if you are being ironic or not. :(

[ydejin]

I have a suggestion: instead of giving tile yields numerically, use graphics like Civ 4 did. Much easier at a glance to assess the quality of a potential city, since our brain can count 1-5 icons much quicker than it can read a number

You're not supposed to be counting them. I didn't realize this until Brad posted on this in response to a question of mine a long while back up thread. Those 3 numbers are the exact tile yields for a city built on that particular square.

If a tile says 5 food, 3 material, 1 essence, then that's exactly what a city on that square is going to get. Regardless of what any of the tiles around it say. The totalling and calculation of each of the individual tile yields has already been done for you, and the numbers you are seeing on a specific square is the summary evaluation of what a city built on that square would get from the surrounding tiles.

I hope I'm writing this clearly, because the concept is actually very simple, coming from the Civ world, I found it quite confusing until it was explained to me. Now it's very simple and straightforward. If you can read the three numbers for a square, then you can tell at a quick glance exactly how good a particular square is.

Now that I know what's going on this approach is much better and much clearer IMO.

[Mr. Zero]

You're not supposed to be counting them. I didn't realize this until Brad posted on this in response to a question of mine a long while back up thread. Those 3 numbers are the exact tile yields for a city built on that particular square.

If a tile says 5 food, 3 material, 1 essence, then that's exactly what a city on that square is going to get. Regardless of what any of the tiles around it say. The totalling and calculation of each of the individual tile yields has already been done for you, and the numbers you are seeing on a specific square is the summary evaluation of what a city built on that square would get from the surrounding tiles.
Ohh, okay. The incumbent system is probably okay, then.

If anyone wanted to test their Approximate Number Sense. (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/09/15/science/20080915_NUMBER_SENSE_GRAPHIC.html)

[Chuck]

Is there a way to slow down the edge scroll? I see there is a slider, but the lowest value (100) is way too fast when using the arrow keys, and barely tolerable when using the mouse at the screen's edge.

[KevinC]

Edge scroll was always the secondary control scheme for moving the map around, you're better off click-dragging with LMB, it feels a lot better. To address your question though, no, I haven't played around with the setting.

[Blips]

Am I missing something, or do only very limited spots on the map provide resources for a city to be built upon? What determines how much essence, food, etc are available from a tile? I don't recall seeing anything graphical to indicate fertile tiles were special.

If I had chosen earth or perhaps water magic, would I have been able to make land of my choosing fertile?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Am I missing something, or do only very limited spots on the map provide resources for a city to be built upon? What determines how much essence, food, etc are available from a tile? I don't recall seeing anything graphical to indicate fertile tiles were special.

If I had chosen earth or perhaps water magic, would I have been able to make land of my choosing fertile?

Hmm, no, you should see two or three numbers with little icons representing food, materials, and sometimes essence. The older versions of the game, you had to hover the mouse cursor over the "settle" button on the lower part of the screen but I think they did away with that. Instead, you should just see them. Try starting over with a new map. There is no special magic or whatever that you need, although you DO have to be a pioneer (or a sovereign at the beginning)to settle a city, after the beginning though only pioneers can settle as far as I know.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Oh, and , yeah, there are only a few select areas that you can settle on the map, but you should be able to "see" them when you come across them.

*I hope that wasn't too confusing...

[Blips]

Yeah I can see the icons identifying tiles that can be settled on, but I don't see any actual correlation between fertile tiles and their immediate surrounding environment, nor do the tiles themselves actually have any special visual properties.

[Telefrog]

Achievements seem to be unlocking as I play. Where do I see those?

[Brad Wardell]

Am I missing something, or do only very limited spots on the map provide resources for a city to be built upon? What determines how much essence, food, etc are available from a tile? I don't recall seeing anything graphical to indicate fertile tiles were special.

If I had chosen earth or perhaps water magic, would I have been able to make land of my choosing fertile?

Derek could probably explain this better than me but broadly speaking:

There are two types of fertile land in the world - Fertile plains and Desecrated plains. On the map they're either green or kind of an alien bluish. That's where grain comes from.

Materials comes from trees, clay, metal deposits, etc. and how much there are depends on how close the tile is to them.

Essence comes from shards, crystals and other magical resources and spread from there.

The 3 numbers are the result of a given tile's proximity to these things.

There are other things to take into account when you're founding a city such as how close a river is and how close actual woods are because those unlock special improvements that can increase food and materials to the city.

[Mark L]

Okay. So there's a lot to really like about beta 4, and the game has improved enormously. For the first time, I got really engaged in a game of Fallen Enchantress, continuing to play out of genuine interest rather than mere curiosity.

One thing that still bothers me, though, is the boringnessitude of the spells.

Magic is wonderful. Magic is extraordinary. Magic is bounded only by imagination. That is what's special about magic, what makes it so much fun. So, if that is so, why does it end up being so banal? Fire bolt, fire ball, blizzard, lightning storm...can't we have more fun than that?

Rather than just grouse about it, though, I made up an example magic sphere to try to show what I mean. Without further ado, I give you humormancy, the magic of comedy!

Note that all tactical Humormancy spells are accompanied by the caster telling a joke, which is shown in text above his or her head. These jokes are drawn from a joke database that can be updated by Stardock fans.

Humorancy

Tactical Spells

Got your nose!
Removes target's nose, permanently disfiguring them and causing damage from the pain. Stolen noses can be kept as trophies or eaten for an hp boost.

Funny Bone
Target enemy unit's funny bone is smashed, causing significant physical damage and slowing movement. That damage is restored over time, however, and the target is immune to further comedy spells for the rest of the combat.

Hello I must be going
Teleports caster out of a fight. Leaves behind caster shaped cloud of dust which can cast spells as normal for two turns, then fades away. If player is at war, has 20% chance of teleporting caster next to enemy capital, on account of taking a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Laughter is the best medicine
Heals target unit for a significant amount, but causes laughter related paralysis fpr several turns.

Gut buster
Target unit starts a deep, rumbling, basso profundo laugh. Units next to it are disturbed by this and are granted the "disquieted" debuff to their resistance. After 5 turns, the target detonates, showering nearby units in a flood of gore. Any "disquieted" units hit by this gain the terror debuff, and start moving away from the enemy.

Ridicule
Target unit is humiliated in front of its peers, taking a debuff to attack and defense whose power corresponds with the number of other units on its side.

The Aristocrats!
Caster starts telling an increasingly vulgar joke. Starts off doing no damage, ramping up more and more damage over 5 turns. Affected units can also gain the nausea effect, lowering their maximum hit points. The nausea can also affect the casters own units. On the final turn, surviving units gain a slight healing effect due to the relief brought on by the non sequitur punch line.

Killjoy
Enemies that attack the enchanted unit in melee lose the ability to cast spells or use powers for the rest of the combat.

Knock knock
Tears down target city wall. Ensuing explosion damages nearby units with shrapnel.

Stop me if you've heard this one
Caster tells a joke. Target unit starts piling up debuffs- laughter, mute, confusion, easy target. The longer the joke is told, the more debuffs stack up and the harder the spell is to resist.

Mockery
Creates a duplicate of opposing unit. Duplicate can only attack it's opposite number. Target unit gains the rage buff, which grows over time.

Surely you jest
Opponents unit starts telling a joke. He must continue telling the joke until attacked or until caster fails a resistance check. He can do nothing else.

Why so serious?
Only works on undead or nonliving units. They lose undead or nonliving status and begin to laugh. Laughter grows each turn, eventually tearing them apart from the inside out.

Too soon?
Caster tells an inappropriate joke. Everyone must pass next turn standing around in awkward silence.(debuffs still progress). One of the following happens : the sound of crickets are heard (annoyance debuff), caster summons a mighty tumbleweed golem that blows onto the battlefield, or everyone cracks up anyway, causing enemy units to move randomly for the next 2 turns. 10% chance that caster quietly packs up his or her things and absconds from the battlefield. Too soon?'s power increases significantly if a city has been razed in the last 10 turns.

You crack me up, kid

Caster splits into 3 units, allowing him or her to be in 3 places at once. 2 of the caster units vanish when struck.

Strategic Spells

Send in the Clowns

This spell has two versions, literal and figurative. The literal version summons hilarious demon clowns to your city, reducing unrest and raising research (due to their keen magical insights) at the cost of a slight malus to productivity.

The figurative version refers to the sadness and ennui intended by the song. Target enemy city's unrest grows, and each turn there is a 20% chance that the city produces no resources. This spells maintenance increases over time.

The two spells cannot be cast simultaneously.

The Laugh Factory
Target city starts spawning random daemon clown units, with a slight chance of happening every turn. Most of the time, they are under control of the player. Most of the time. Sometimes they go rogue, burning down outposts and resources. Only one city can have The Laugh Factory at a time.

Know your Audience
Magic points are turned into influence points. It happens at a pretty poor ratio, but still!

Epic Spells

Mr. Wardell, Bring Down This Wall
The fourth wall is shattered. Player is able to summon a unit from one of star docks other games. This can be a Titan from demigod, a starship from sins of a solar empire, or a starbase from galciv 2. The first two are units, while the last is an upgradable city like structure. Optionally, players can install a mod that allows various player made units to be possible to be summoned. The sky's the limit!

Clownpocalypse Now
A great rift is formed, out of which pour neutral killer clown units. Unless the rift can be closed by getting a hero to it and sacrificing them, they will continue to arrive and attack enemy cities. They ignore the casters cities.

Units include killer clowns, clown cars, clown troopers, and clown f19 raptors (rare).

The Funniest Joke in the World
Cast on a city to greatly depopulate it over time. Spreads from city to city via trade routes. The casters cities are not immune. Affected cities will eventually fall into ruin unless their player researches an "antidote". Razing cities can stop the spread of the joke.

So, that's my start at a spell sphere. By no means am I some genius spell designer, I am certainly not claiming I know better than the professionals. I just think that there is a lack of creativity in the spell system as it stands. What do you all think?

[dbd1963]

The Funniest Joke in the World
Cast on a city to greatly depopulate it over time. Spreads from city to city via trade routes. The casters cities are not immune. Affected cities will eventually fall into ruin unless their player researches an "antidote". Razing cities can stop the spread of the joke.


That right there is a great mechanic.

I like your general idea, but I'm not sure I like the joke part. Still, that would be pretty different.

[Mark L]

That right there is a great mechanic.

I like your general idea, but I'm not sure I like the joke part. Still, that would be pretty different.

The joke text would be merely cosmetic for the players amusement.

The spell itself is a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Funniest_Joke_in_the_World

[ydejin]

Couple questions:

1) Is there any cost to spamming outposts other than the cost of manufacturing Pioneers? I've got some border lands I'd like to keep under observation, so I thought putting outposts there might be a good idea, even if there aren't any resources. Plus not sure how well this works, but I'd like to claim the territory to prevent other Wizards from advancing.

2) There is no longer a maintenance cost to city improvements? Just wanted to double check.

3) Is there a list of hotkeys anywhere? In particular, I'd like "find next unit" and "find next unmoved unit" keys.