I miss Games Workshop's board games dammit!!

[Tyjenks]

While posting in the games section, the days of my youth flashed before my eyes and I recalled how much I enjoyed board games when I was a kid.

Sure Life, Sorry, Parchesi, The Godfather Game (which came in a plastic machine gun case) and all the popular classics were and are still fun, but I really miss the Games Workshop ones.

Talisman and all it's expansions and Dungeonquest and it's expansion, in particular, I wore out. What happened?!?!

I guess with all of GW's high class, mister snooty-britches miniature gaming they do now, there is just no time for life's simple boardgame pleasures. Oh, well. I am off to kill some mutants in my solo-play masterpiece: Chainsaw Warrior.

[nife2o4]

I've got Talisman on the bookcase behind me right now. I never got any of the expansions for it though. I'd say GW gave up on the board games because they can sell one blister pack of minitures for the same price as a board game.

Also several of their latest games (Necromunda, Gorkamorka, etc) seem to be merely expanded board games. Maybe the ideas they wanted to develop just couldn't be confined to a board game format...I think it's more likely that it's about the money ;)

Another good boardgame company was Leading Edge Games. They made a Dracula the Movie game that was fairly forgetable, but they also made a tremendously fun game based on the Aliens movie. It's essentially a recreation of the major battles in the movie, with an expansion pack that lets you hunt the alien queen if you're suicidal.

I've got two Mayfair games from book series: the Xanth board game, and the Dragonriders of Pern. Finally I've got two Avalon Hill games, Titan and Wizard's Quest.

Between this thread and my reminiscing about gamebooks in my thread, I'm feeling all old and nostalgic now. I'll just toddle off with my walker now and see if I can roll a 10 and shoot the alien off Hicks without getting acid splash on him.

-Trevor

[Tyjenks]

Yikes!! I chimed in on your thread, too. I should get my reservation in at Whispering Meadows before all the assisted living condos fill up.

I broke Talisman out to play with my wife a year or two ago. She had fun (so she says, she may have been humoring me), but wowweee does it take a long time when you are teaching someone and they are simply playing to humor you.

The expansions were great. In most cases, they just lengthened an already long game to near tedium.

I still browse in the hobby shop every once in a while to see if there are any board games of interest. I think you are right, it must have been a money thing because the boardgames released today with that level of detail cost anywhere from $35 up to $59.95.

[Tyjenks]

Random Games had acquired the rights to do a PC version of Talisman some 3 or 4 years ago. They had a website set up and some screenshots. I am afraid they and it have gone the way of the dodo bird. I can no longer find a site for either. :cry:

I am sure that the stellar product which was Squad Leader had nothing to do with it.

[Ben Sones]

I used to love Talisman (and some of the expansions... the City and the Dungeon were neat, the Timescape was completely unbalancing, though). It's not a game that ages well, though--I think if you go back and play it today, you'll find that it's a lot less neat than you remember. The mechanics are almost completely random--the only meaningful decisions that you ever make is whether to go right or left each time you roll and when to go for the Crown of Command.

It's a great idea for a game and has loads of style, but as an excercise in strategy it's not much better than flipping a coin.

Now, Titan... that's a game that I still play to this day. That game has legs (unfortunately you'll need legs, too--games with four or more players tend to last forever).

Cosmic Encounter is another perrenial favorite. The new version from Hasbro (under their Avalon Hill brand) is very nice.

I miss some of the old Tom Wham games that I used to have.

[Enkidu]

It's not a game that ages well, though--I think if you go back and play it today, you'll find that it's a lot less neat than you remember. The mechanics are almost completely random--the only meaningful decisions that you ever make is whether to go right or left each time you roll and when to go for the Crown of Command.

Unfortunately, that's not too far off if you play a friendly game. Talisman has a higher level of strategy if you actively hinder the other players, but even a decade ago it was difficult to get that many sporting players together. Usually bad blood took over at some point.

[Ben Sones]

Even if you actively try to hinder other players, you don't have much control over the process. You can choose to move in the direction of other characters (as opposed to the other direction) and attack them, but the dice decide whether or not you actually get to do it. Mostly the game is like Monopoly--another game that I loved as a kid, until I eventually realized that skill plays almost no role in the game (you can make the right choices at every opportunity and still lose).

Titan blends random elements and strategy more effectively. The dice govern movement, but you have more choices, and can pursue different strategies--a good player can overcome bad rolls. Combat also uses dice, but you pool together so many that the odds become fairly predictable. Most good players can call who will win a battle (given good tactical choices on both sides) before it's played, and battles are usually lost because a player makes a bad decision rather than a bad roll.

Cosmic Encounter also works well in this regard, replacing randomness with hidden information (which serves the same purpose, but allows for greater player control).

[Bernie_Dy]

Speaking of board games...I've seen the ads for the bg version of Civilization. The latest CGW also has a short news piece on it, not too far from the infamous Strategy First/WalMart piece, I think.

Anyone know anything else about this one?

[Tyjenks]

I remember seeing a link to the game's site in another thread. There were some very dull looking, unpainted miniatures in the screen shots. I'll see if I cannot find it.

Here's the thread:

http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=170&highlight=civilization+boardgame

Here's the publisher's site:

www.eaglegames.net

[Enkidu]

Even if you actively try to hinder other players, you don't have much control over the process. You can choose to move in the direction of other characters (as opposed to the other direction) and attack them, but the dice decide whether or not you actually get to do it.

Cosmic Encounter is a better design than Talisman, certainly. Titan is also an excellent game, although an awfully long game could easily hinge on the early turns of play. I don't mean to say that Talisman is superior, just that there's a little more choice, especially with some of the characters from the first two expansions. You could easily decide to, say, allow the warrior to collect items and steal those that would help you reach the center of the board.

Frankly, most of my favorite Talisman games were played as something to occupy a group during five-handed hot-seat games of MOO II. Enough fun to keep people occupied while waiting for their turn without being too demanding.

[Bub, Andrew]

Eagle also announced an Age of Mythology boardgame at Gen Con, gotta commend them for getting interesting licenses. Sid Meier said the Civ board game is "really good" but he was there for a presumably paid autograph signing, take that FWIW.

While there I also met the painter who designed the map. All I could think of was Chet voicing his disapproval of it here.

[Tyjenks]

So none of you played Dungeonquest? It was a maze-type dungeon crawl where you drew cardboard tiles and place them as rooms to fill the board. This was in the hopes you would work your way to the center and steal stuff from the Dragon's lair and scurry back out. It was pretty random too, but since it was different every time and there was a plethora of different rooms and events that could pop up, I enjoyed it more than Talisman. Much more brief as well.


$59.99 for the Civ boardgame! Yowwweeeee!

[Ben Sones]

Of course I played Dungeonquest. And HeroQuest. And Blood Bowl (probably my favorite of the Games Workshop board games). I wish they were still making board games, too. A new, revised version of Talisman (addressing some of the stuff that has been brought up here) would be a must-buy.

[Tyjenks]

I own Blood Bowl, too. Never could find anyone who would play it. :cry:

[Kevin Perry]

I own Blood Bowl, too. Never could find anyone who would play it. :cry:

Then you are missing one of the finest board game experiences one can have.

The magic of the game really emerges in Blood Bowl leagues. With one-offs you miss so much of the character development, and thus team development.

[GregB]

I still have my copy of Talisman (with the Dungeon, City, and Timescape expansion boards). Used to play it a lot in college. We had all kinds of house rules that made the game a bit more difficult and encourages offensive play. I think we also made it so you could only get a Talisman from the Dungeon.

Occasionally I break it out for play with some friends, but we usually skip the city board because didn't appear to add much of interest and definately made the game too long to play. I always thought it would make a fun computer game.

Play some Blood Bowl and Space Hulk as well, but never really got into them as much as Talisman.

[Tyjenks]

I own Blood Bowl, too. Never could find anyone who would play it. :cry:

Then you are missing one of the finest board game experiences one can have.

The magic of the game really emerges in Blood Bowl leagues. With one-offs you miss so much of the character development, and thus team development.

Don't remind me. Do you want me to cry again? Too late. Here come the water works. :cry: :oops:

[Don Quixote]

Heh. This thread seems to get revived twice a year or so on rec.games.board. GW did used to make good games, before they got taken over by Citadel Miniatures. In particular, Fury of Dracula (kind of like Scotland yard, but with more game to it) Blood Royale, and Kings and Things were great games, but are pretty highly sought after on the collector's market, so you may have trouble ever aquiring them.

While not actually a GW design (it was originally a swedish game by Dan Glimme that they merely translated and published), Dungeonquest, and both of it's expansions were excellent, and if you like them, look for a twist on the same theme that came out last year called Drakon. You and your friends play a party of fantasy adventurers that went in to loot a dragon's den, and quikly got captured by the dragon. Now he's playing a game with you- the first player to get five gold coins will be released, and the rest will be eaten. The board is built chamber-by-chamber, much like Dungeonquest, with each tile having special effects when a player moves into one. It's rather silly and verycutthroat (in a Cosmic Encounter sort of way) and a lot of fun.

While we're on the subject of boardgames that have been left behind by companies that have moved on to bigger and 'better' things, I picked up a copy of FASA's original Crimson Skies a few weeks ago, and am greatly looking forward to playing. The rules are almost a percect lift of Blue Max, but without the cumbersome plane-specific maneuver charts- they work almost exactly the same, but they instiuted a neat role-playing aspect to the planes' handling that makes it a bit more exciting.

[Tyjenks]

Thanks Don Q. for the heads up on Drakon. I found it at www.funagain.com . Great boardgame site. They have a whole section of "tile-laying" games like Dungeonquest and Drakon. I would have never imagined those were all out there.

What is it with those wacky Europeans and their love for boardgames? Especially the Germans with their Settlers of Catan and the like. I guess if we were not inundated with Console and PC games we would stilll be boardgaming more, too.

[Bub, Andrew]

I wholeheartedly agree about Bloodbowl. Nothing like making a team and bringing it through a brutal season. My fave was Ragnarockn'roll (before some recent band used that as an album name) and I used Berserkers, Werewolves, Giants, and the obligatory halfling kicker. Brutal. Just brutal.

God. I wish I knew some local board gamers. I'm in Milwaukee and I can't find any?!?

[Ben Sones]

Actually, Kings & Things wasn't designed by the fine folks at Games Worksop--it's a Tom Wham design, originally published as a Dragon Magazine extra called King of the Tabletop (Rob Kuntz helped on that design). Then West End Games revamped the game, adding the now-indispensible hex tile map, and Games Workshop published it.

Drakon is indeed a fun game. Very simple, but with some interesting decision-making.

Other more recent games that I'd recommend, for anyone pining away for a good board game experience:

Citadels (by Bruno Faidutti, a French import)
Galaxy: The Dark Ages (A Reiner Knizia design, almost identical to Titan: The Arena, with some improvements)
Twilight Imperium (a 4X space game for the tabletop, reminds me a bit of Stellar Conquest)
Hell Rail (a train game set in Hell... what's not to like?)
Verräter (fantastic card-based game)

[Don Quixote]

I've got Verrater, and it's sequal, Mueterer, but haven't had the chance to play them yet. Too many modern games are designed with a four or five person limit- I regard boardgaming as a mostly social activity, and my wife and I usually invite two sets of couples over to play. That makes six, which immediatly excludes a heck of a lot of games. :(.

I've also got Citadels- that is a great game. We play it lots.

I actually prefer Titan to Galaxy- the theme just gets me. Sitting around, betting on gladitorial monster battles. That is just too cool.

If you like Funagain games, you should have a gander at http://www.boardgamegeek.com. It's Heaven.

[Bub, Andrew]

Actually, Kings & Things wasn't designed by the fine folks at Games Worksop--it's a Tom Wham design, originally published as a Dragon Magazine extra called King of the Tabletop (Rob Kuntz helped on that design). Then West End Games revamped the game, adding the now-indispensible hex tile map, and Games Workshop published it.


I met Tom Wham at Gen Con and he asked me what games I knew of his (to be honest I mainly just remembered his name). "King of the Tabletop" sprang to my lips out of nowhere (I loved it as a kid), which made him smile and led to a long conversation/interview that I've been unable to sell anywhere (not even Dragon Magazine remembers Wham it seems). It turns out I know a lot of his games: Snits Revenge, Iron Dragon, etc.,

Oh, I also learned he lives three blocks from my mother in law. This led to an obvious Iron Dragon joke that Wham was polite enough to smile at.

[Tyjenks]

I met Tom Wham at Gen Con and he asked me what games I knew of his (to be honest I mainly just remembered his name). "King of the Tabletop" sprang to my lips out of nowhere (I loved it as a kid), which made him smile and led to a long conversation/interview that I've been unable to sell anywhere (not even Dragon Magazine remembers Wham it seems). It turns out I know a lot of his games: Snits Revenge, Iron Dragon, etc.,

I remember KotT. I believe I have that issue of Dragon around here. Ahhh Dragon magazine in it's early days. eeck....nostal...gia overload......pulse...erratic....vision......blurr rrrrrrrrr rtyuk,.

[Ben Sones]

It turns out I know a lot of his games: Snits Revenge, Iron Dragon, etc.,

Don't forget Awful Green Things from Outer Space... I used to love that game. haven't played it in a long time, though.

[Brian Rucker]

I played Talisman in college too with the Dungeon and City supplements. We created some drinking version, god knows I don't remember how that worked, which we'd break out at cons and after long roleplaying sessions sometimes. What a blast that game was.

[Joe O'Malley]

I was at a tournament a couple weeks back and the GW people were very enthusiastic about the old games. It turns out that there is about to be a major push for supporting a lot of the old games like Bloodbowl, Battlefleet Gothic and a bunch of others (didn't hear Talisman in particular, sorry). These "specialty games" as GW calls them are going to be getting re-released and then supported via the web. It actually sounds like a good deal, with them producing magazines and scenario booklets, etc.

[Tyjenks]

No mention of Chainsaw Warrior either, I suppose. :wink:

I emailed GW a couple of years ago and they said that their focus had shifted away from and had no future plans for any of those old games, specifically Talisman. I guess the clamor for them was to loud to ignore.

Did you happen to hear anything about the PC version of Talisman that was in the early stages from Random Games?

[Joe O'Malley]

Nope, not a word. Apparently the whole specialist games notion came about because of the web. GW can only get so much shelf space in most stores, so they have to focus on their two main games there. They introduce new games, but unless the new game is a complete smash, it then gets supported for about a year and then dropped. With specialist games being available after release via the web, and with limited development still going into them, GW hopes to expand their available offerings. It's a neat idea; we'll see if it works.

[Tyjenks]

I recently purchased "Carcassonne". I have read some good stuff about it and talked to a couple folks at my local game store. Another tile-building type game. I'll report back.

[Chris Floyd]

Carcasonne is a nice little game. Simple, not overly competitive, but interesting. Nice self-contained moves -- which I like because "think X moves ahead" games just melt my brain. The expansions add some interesting features, too.

[Tyjenks]

I mainly got it so that my wife and I could spend some "just us" time. With a new baby and conflicting work schedules, it seemed like a good fit. So far, we have both had fun with it. I love the constant variation of boards in all tile-based games. Although, the online price of $13.95 plus shipping (out of stock) vs. the local hobby shop price of $20.00 plus tax reminded me again why I fell out of going to local stores to see what's new in the boardgaming world. Damn CCG's and miniatures!!! I think they made everything else more expensive to have in stock by becoming so popular and edging boardgames out of the store.

[Don Quixote]

Wow. Thak about serendipity. I had some time to kill while chauferring my wife to her acting coach and back home, so I decided to stop in the game shop in the neighborhood near said coach- I hadn't been in a month or so, and they have a used games section that I like to keep my eye on.

I scored copies of 1st ed. Blood Bowl and Chainsaw Warrior for $10 each!!! :D Complete, it seems- everything is sorted into little baggies, so I coudn't actually count. Oh well, I'm used to making stuff for myself anyway... I'm in the process of building a set of EON's (the original makers of Cosmic Encounter) Bordelands right now, while trying to convert it over to a hex-tile system ala Settlers.

Score!

[Anonymous]

Carcasonne is a nice little game. Simple, not overly competitive, but interesting. Nice self-contained moves -- which I like because "think X moves ahead" games just melt my brain. The expansions add some interesting features, too.

Carcasonne IS a fantastic game for any number of players, though better for 2 or 3 I think. I've recently started collecting board games again, mostly of the German ilk, and own about 40 titles. Some recommendations:

Puerto Rico (3-5 players, though adaptable for 2) - It is a contest to determine who is best at developing the island of PR. There is almost no luck in the game, yet each game plays out very differently. It was one of the three finalists in this year's Spiel des Jehres (German game of the year) and is currently the highest rated game on the gamer's internet poll.

Atlantic Star/Showmanager (2-6 players, works well for all numbers) - These are the same exact game, but with different themes. Showmanager features you trying to assemble casts for musicals (Big Bad Wolf and King Lear among them) where Atlantic Star has you setting up various cruises. Showmanager has a more humorous approach, but Atlantic Star is easier to find.

Settlers of Catan (3-4 players, can be bumped to 5 or 6 with expansion) - this is to Germany what Monopoly is to the US. Both involve some luck of the dice and skillful ability to handle negotiations (trading resources to get what you want). This is one of the games that kicked off the German onslaught of board games here in the US. I've not played the expansions (Seafarers of Catan and Cities & Knights of Catan), but have heard great things about them. For a slightly different, but otherwise outstanding game, look for Starfarers of Catan. It is a bit expensive, but includes enough neat 'tidbits' to justify the cost.

Wyatt Earp/Mystery Rummy series - I own Wyatt Earp, and have played the Jack the Ripper series, but there is also the Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide and the Murders at the Rue Morgue games. They work well for 2-4 players (Wyatt Earp recommends 3, but the wife and I like playing it as 2) and add twists to the normal game of rummy. Wyatt Earp, for example, has you adding rewards to one of 7 outlaws when a meld is played, and the reward is either divided by multiple players, collected by a single player, or passed on to the next round, depending on the value of melds for that outlaw.

Royal Turf (2-6 players, the more the better) - Bet secretly on 3 of 7 horses, then influence their movement around the track. You win more if fewer people bet on your horse, but getting it to win is more difficult (the other players are out to screw you over).

As mentioned before, check out www.funagain.com or www.boardgamegeek.com for reviews. If you want to ship from overseas and save a lot of money, look up Adam Spielt. www.bouldergames.com, however is where I buy my stuff. It has the lowest US prices I've seen, and living in Atlanta, I know I can get my games quickly. YMMV.

And the wife is happy to see she is not a pc widow as much anymore.

[Tyjenks]

I scored copies of 1st ed. Blood Bowl and Chainsaw Warrior for $10 each!!! :D Complete, it seems- everything is sorted into little baggies, so I coudn't actually count.

You know what. When I bought my original CW copy 10-12 years ago, I was shorted pieces and had extras of others. If you are missing any, let me know. I muddled through, but ended up not sending off for replacements as I had picked it up clearance priced back then. Still copies out there of Chainsaw Warrior, huh? That's crazy talk.

[Tyjenks]

Carcasonne is a nice little game. Simple, not overly competitive, but interesting. Nice self-contained moves -- which I like because "think X moves ahead" games just melt my brain. The expansions add some interesting features, too.

Carcasonne IS a fantastic game for any number of players, though better for 2 or 3 I think.

That makes three of us. What a fun game. My wife and I have played off and on all weekend. Farmers es muy importante. No?

Looking to get Hera and Zeus. Anyone played that?

[Anonymous]

Looking to get Hera and Zeus. Anyone played that?

I bought it two weeks ago actually but haven't played it yet. While it looks like a fun game (and have read good things about it), I am getting the impression that there are enough special abilities and cards that work differently in different manners (the Medusa for instance is very similar to the Bomb in Stratego) that it might put off the missus. She doesn't mind relatively deep games (she loves Tikal and regularly schools me at it), but 'finicky' games put her off.

If you like the theme, give it a shot. If you are looking for a good two-player game, though, try Caesar and Cleopatra which is a bit simpler. Likewise, I STRONGLY recommend Schotten-Totten (the instructions are in German but can be gotten off the Geek). Very simple rules and has a definite competitive element to it (unlike Lost Cities where it exists, but seems diluted). I like Settlers of Catan card game and Starship Catan, both designed for two players as well, though they require a bit more of a time investment (a little over an hour as I recall). Finally, if I haven't mentioned it before, Wyatt Earp is a great rummy game for 2-4 (recommends 3, but played just fine with 2). I nearly picked up the other Mystery Rummy games this weekend, but after buying the Reservoir Dogs DVD and a Rev. Horton Heat CD, I couldn't justify dropping more coin.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, the above post was by me.

[Tyjenks]

Looking to get Hera and Zeus. Anyone played that?

While it looks like a fun game (and have read good things about it), I am getting the impression that there are enough special abilities and cards that work differently in different manners (the Medusa for instance is very similar to the Bomb in Stratego) that it might put off the missus. She doesn't mind relatively deep games (she loves Tikal and regularly schools me at it), but 'finicky' games put her off.

There is the same fear with my wife. I have previously looked at pretty much all of the games you recommended and may start with C and C. Tikal too, huh? Unfortuantely as I stated before, my local games shop has precious few boardgame and card game titles in stock. Rather than see any of these in the flesh I must rely on you good folk, funagain.com, and the slightly muddled, but always informative boardgamegeek.com.

Also, as I am new to www.boardgamegeek.com , has the layout always been...umm...let's see...that way. It seems as if they just kept adding stuff and never have done a redesign or re-organization. Of course, it may be that they have so damn many stats and so damn much info. there would be no simple way to put it all together. Now that I know my way around it is fine, but the layout is a little intimidating for the uninitiated.

[Anonymous]

I've only been a game collector for about 6 months now (though I've always enjoyed playing), but yes, BGG is actually improved since when it first started. I usually use www.funagain.com to figure out whether or not I'd like game mechanics, taking their ratings with a grain of salt. As mentioned before, I buy all my games from www.bouldergames.com because even though their site sucks, they have the best prices around (well, you can get MUCH cheaper from Adam Spielt, but you have to figure out their site, plus it takes a few weeks to ship from Germany). In addition, I game with a group of folks on Tuesday nights here in Atlanta and I get a chance to discover what I like that way. Also, if you can handle the German, check out http://www.brettspielwelt.de/gate/jsp/base/index.jsp?nation=en.
It has the online version of several German board games, all free. The interface is not the greatest (learn the /hook command and you should be fine) and make sure you download the client, rather than play it straight off their homepage. They have Carcassonne (with and without expansion), Tichu, Transamerica, Puerto Rico, Settlers of Catan, Ra, Princes of Florence, Liar's Dice, Can't Stop, and quite a few others.. all free, no ads.
I go by LlamaPoet there but haven't been as much as I used to (stupid Everquest again, grrrrr).

[Tyjenks]

How can Funagain and other similair gaming sites sell games for so much less than if you ordered them direct online? I imagine they buy in bulk and get discounts. The differences in my price and retail or direct purchase seem much larger than for, say, PC games purchased in the same manner.

Some of the differences are 5-10 dollars. I am torn between supporting the creator/publisher and conserving funds. If they get the same amount either way, my choice is much easier.

Anyone know? Thanks.

[Tim]

I think most game publishers would actually prefer that you buy from a middle man vendor, even if you pay less and they get less. Publishing games is a very different business than retailing, and most publishers really aren't interested in diversifying into retail. Orders from individuals have MUCH higher overhead costs than bulk orders from vendors.

A while ago, I ordered some games direct from Steve Jackson Games online, and their web site practically begged me to support a local dealer instead. I checked into it, but their list of resellers was out of date, and the first three that looked nearby were no longer in business. Now I know some better alternatives, but at the time it was worth paying 'full price' directly to SJG.

SJG seemed very concerned about the general health of the 'game dealer' industry. In the long run, it seems like they know it's more important to keep those healthy than to squeeze a few extra dollars from an established customer directly.

In most industries, resellers demand significant discounts below 'retail' price and would stop carrying products from a vendor who took advantage of its ability to underprice resellers. Most vendors are very careful to keep their resellers happy about this issue. They're happy to take less money but not have to worry about 'retail issues' like customer service, returns, credit card processing and such.

[Tyjenks]

Thanks Tim. My next question would be why they have direct sales at all, but I imagine they mark it up enough to justify the added overhead.

I actually emailed Fantasy Flight Games and asked them this same question before making a purchase from an online reseller. I have not heard back in a couple of days so, with your counsel, will most likely go ahead and make a purchase from the reseller.

Thanks again,
tj

[Chris Floyd]

It came up on the old boards, but here it comes again: I think the Lord of the Rings cooperative board game is stupendous. Anyone else following this thread given it a try?

Unfortunately, the expansions, which have a lot of potential, seem pretty messed up. Or, I should say, the one that's been released seems messed up to me and the one that's about to come out is questionable as well.

Friends and Foes has a lot of cool additions, but the couple of times I've given it a try it's seemed *really* broken. Mainly, it's just too hard. We end up in dire straits by the time we finish Moria. I suspect the main problem is that our old pre-expansion strategies just don't work post-expansion. But each time we play, I can't see what we might have done differently to do better. The aspect that actually feels broken is that in one game we got seriously screwed by Helm's Deep and decided that our only hope for winning might be a military victory. With planning and luck we forced all the Foes out of the deck and killed them one-by-one. It seemed way too easy to do once we tried. Before that point, I'd say we had made pretty slow progress through the Foe Deck. Anyone else been in this situation?

As for the new expansion -- okay, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm a little disappointed. I *love* the whole fact that Sauron is an automated force; no one can change what he does, no one can stop him. With the "Sauron" expansion, he becomes a player with new tools for working against the group. I'm a little saddened to see this, although I'm willing to give it a try.

I so much enjoy the fear and dread of seeing Sauron barrelling down upon me that I've worked out rules to include the spiffy-keen Sauron figure into Chutes and Ladders. Seeing those little kiddies running up the board desperately trying to escape the Dark Lord... now that's entertainment.

[Tyjenks]

It came up on the old boards, but here it comes again: I think the Lord of the Rings cooperative board game is stupendous. Anyone else following this thread given it a try?

Not yet, but that was one of the ones I was going to pick up along with Drakon. Tom Jolly (Drakon) is also about to publish CaveTroll with FFG and I am looking forward to it as well.

[Anonymous]

It came up on the old boards, but here it comes again: I think the Lord of the Rings cooperative board game is stupendous. Anyone else following this thread given it a try?


I've not played it yet, but it was created by a legend in the board game field, Reiner Knizia. He recently appeared as a guest of the Motley Fools in D.C. to play and talk about his games, and this is his favorite creation (and apparently was saddened to see so few copies at the gathering).

Other notable games by him, that I happen to love are Ra (an Egyptian themed auction game), Daytona 500 (an old Milton Bradley game I think, and one of his first.. you can often find it on E-Bay), Royal Turf (I mentioned this one in an earlier post), Traumfabrik (an auction game set in classic Hollywood, my favorite auction game at this point), Through the Desert (not played, but have heard best game ever), Lost Cities, Money, Schotten-Totten (one of my favorite 2-player choices), and Medici.

As a couple of asides, if you plan to pick up Drakon, make sure you get the new version. An expansion was recently released for the game, and the backs are incompatible with the original version, much to the chagrin of old buyers.

Last, regarding pricing, games that are 'international' or German with few words to get in the way (Settlers of Catan and Ra are good examples) can be had VERY cheaply when ordering from German itself. Our group often orders large shipments from http://www.adam-spielt.de/, and despite having to cross the Atlantic, and despite having to find translations (from boardgamegeek.com), one can save a bundle. Not to say that I don't support US Suppliers who can still save you a chunk, but if you are anxious to get a 'new' game and don't mind the German (I did this with Piratenbucht), consider overseas.

[Dave Perkins]

I so much enjoy the fear and dread of seeing Sauron barrelling down upon me that I've worked out rules to include the spiffy-keen Sauron figure into Chutes and Ladders. Seeing those little kiddies running up the board desperately trying to escape the Dark Lord... now that's entertainment.

You mean you use the Sauron figurine, along with new rules you created, to play the game with your children?

Also: I've tried the expansion, but only twice, and I suppose the novelty of it all prevented me from noticing anything about it besides, "Wee! New rules!" So I can't comment, really, apart from saying that I enjoyed the expansion.

- Dave

[Chris Floyd]

Dave --

1) Well, no, I haven't played with my son yet. Because he'd just eat the pieces. What I meant was -- and this probably isn't clear if you haven't played C&L in awhile -- the playing pieces in Chutes and Ladders are children, hopping and bopping their way across the board. Not a care in the world... Until Sauron's evil consumes them.

2) So did you ever win the game with the expansion rules?

[Tyjenks]

Great now I am in a further quandry(My original email is at the bottom of this quote):


Tyler,

The prices on our online store are the suggested retail prices -- these are the prices at which retail stores will sell the games. We price this way so that we are not competing with our customers (the stores). Our online store is basically a service for our fans who do not have a store near them. A result of this is that we do make more money on games than brick & mortar or internet stores will.

From our perspective, we'd far rather you bought our games from a retail store, and not an online discounter. Our hobby spreads mostly through brick & mortar stores, from people seeing games on shelves, and seeing other people playing games in the stores... but in order for the stores to continue to carry all of the games, they obviously need to be able to sell the games. The more of our games they sell, the more likely they are to carry more of them, and the better visibility they get, so the more they sell. Obviously we like this. Internet discounters bypass this system... often people will see a game in a game store, then purchase it online (for less) -- then you have the game store thinking the game never sells, and they order less and less, and then the game isn't on the shelf for people to see.... and the cycle is generally bad.

So that's that basic story from my perspective. We always recommend buying our games from retail game stores, but you are certainly free to buy them wherever you like (after all, we're always thrilled that you like our games!)

Brian W
FFG


Hello

I have never purchased any of your games online or in stores. I have just recently made a foray back into boardgaming and am drawn to your games because they put me in the mind of the old Gamesworkshop games of which I own several.

One honest question, however. There are a few game sites which sell your games at prices a bit lower than those here at the FFG website. I assume you guys make more profit if I buy direct and if it were only a couple of dollars I would prefer to support FFG. In some cases, the difference is 5 to 10 dollars. And finally my question:

Do you make as much from these other sites as they may buy in bulk or am I going to have to make a choice between my wallet and direct support of the publisher/creator?

Thanks for your time,
Tyler

[Tim]

That actually sounds a lot like the vibe I got from SJG. They made no mention of online resellers, only analog stores. And it makes sense - the online sites are probably similar to the publisher's site - they do more "preaching to the choir" than attracting new money into the market.

Of course, I would expect prices in analog stores to be higher too. And in my area, I don't know of any that are in malls or other places that would attract foot traffic anyway. I do remember seeing several such stores close down over my 20 years or so of 'way geekier than Parker Brothers' gaming, and now they all seem to be isolated at the end of low-traffic strip malls. Even then, board games are stocked in much smaller quantities than figurines, card games, and video games. I don't think I've ever seen an analog selection that was even half what www.funagain.com lists. It may be too late.

[Dave Perkins]

1) Well, no, I haven't played with my son yet. Because he'd just eat the pieces. What I meant was -- and this probably isn't clear if you haven't played C&L in awhile -- the playing pieces in Chutes and Ladders are children, hopping and bopping their way across the board. Not a care in the world... Until Sauron's evil consumes them.

I guess I just didn't think that you played C&L by yourself. But I can see why you do, so long as Sauron is climbin and chutin!

I remember playing Chutes & Ladders. I remember how that longest chute, from like 75 down to 25, held a mythical status in my mind. I would look at it as if it were alive.


2) So did you ever win the game with the expansion rules?

Our first game, we got so hosed we didn't even get halfway through the game. It actually made us laugh. Our second game, I believe we either won, or got to the final map. Mostly luck, I'm sure, because we don't take the game ultra-seriously (as in doing any sort of research as to how to play effectively).

- Dave

[Brian Rucker]

In general, I try to support local retailers whether for hobby or computer games. Part of it is social, despite the buzz on the 'net you can always get interesting tips from the local folks with their own particular spins on things. Part of it is curiousity, seeing what's on the shelves and how it's positioned. Part of it is the desire to see sales spike, even a minscule amount, from a local purchase.

I'm starting to get a bit burned out with, admittedly excellent, computer games and I'm drifting a bit towards running some face-to-face RPG titles. Having been out of the loop recently, I stumbled across a gorgeous new edition of Nobilis, d20 versions of Fading Suns and 7th Sea (Swashbuckling Adventures), and the first in a new series of GURPs WWII titles at the local shop. I dropped a couple hundred bucks on the spot.

I also suspect those games wouldn't have been there if they hadn't had a reputation, or potential, of moving. So, while I might not be in the roleplaying loop like I was I definitely want to support local purchases of games I do know something about - PC and console titles - and generally do. I'll wait for the weekend and look through the stores for titles I want, usually. (Unfortunately no local chains were carrying Dynasty Tactics though they all had a few RoTK VII's). There are always the 'I can't wait another day' exceptions and overnight deliveries but they're very rare.

A little off topic but...the moral is support the good guys and do it by strategic spending. :)

[Tyjenks]

Unfortuanately, at my local gaming stores, talking about boardgaming is like bringing up the Intellivision's D&D title. If it is Magic, Warhammer, or an already hot selling game like Settlers of Cataan or Carcassonne then they'll talk all day.

I brought up a card game put out by Eden Studios based on The Knights of the Dinner Table, granted it may be obscure and (gasp!) non-collectible, and they did not seem particularly interested in even talking to me about it. I was coming from work, had khaki pants on, and a 2-way radio on my hip. That may have affected the quality of service I received in small part, but that's for a whole other thread.

My point is, I guess, that I am in the wrong area of the country to find a good (and by good I mean varied selection) local store unless my needs are very narrow and specific. I doubt any local store carries many FFG games, if any.

Now my choice is pay SRP from FFG or buy from funagain or the like. Or I could go to my friendly local attendants and ask why they do not stock Drakon and FFG games and try to coerce them into carrying more board games. The last option is like a dreamworld wish that, in reality, is more in the realm of 'not bloody likely'.

[Chris Floyd]

I guess I just didn't think that you played C&L by yourself. But I can see why you do, so long as Sauron is climbin and chutin!

No, I just play with my adult friends, actually. The new rules make it a much more compelling game: You can decide whether you want to move up or down the board before you spin. If you land on another kid you can push him/her down the board (which is mean and evil, so it makes Sauron move too). It's no Acquire, but it's entertaining for awhile. Next up for Sauronization is Candyland, but I haven't quite figured out how to change it.

[Kevin Perry]

Next up for Sauronization is Candyland, but I haven't quite figured out how to change it.

Start the kids and Sauron on the start point.

Move the kids normally (i.e. draw a card, move to the color)--do two turns for the kids first. Then burn a card for Sauron, moving him to the next color towards the nearest kid. Thereafter, Sauron moves every turn after the kids do.

Kids can pass kids, but no kid can pass Sauron. If moving to the next color would force the kid to pass Sauron, the kid must move away from Sauron instead.

When any kid draws a double color card, the player may choose to move the kid both colors, or the kid one color and Sauron one color in either direction.

Before drawing the move card, the player can state that the card is for Sauron and not the kid. This forfeits the player's kid's move, and Sauron gets the color card. If this granted card is a double, Sauron takes both.

Candy cards don't teleport the kid to the square, but move Sauron there instead.

Sauron can always take the shortcuts, and is not affected by the trap squares.

What happens when Sauron catches the kids in C&L, Chris?

[Chris Floyd]

Kevin's actually describing something pretty close to my C&L game. Not surprising since they're both basically luck-based racing games. Part of the reason I haven't been going the way Kevin is going is because it's similar enough to C&L with Sauron.

One of my arbitrary design goals is to keep Sauron's moves automated and simple. So, in Chutes and Ladders, he moves a certain number of spaces based off what level of the board he's on (less at the beginning, more as he moves up). As with Kevin's Candyland design, Sauron moves after all the kids have moved. His first move occurs after the kids have moved twice. He goes up Chutes and down Ladders, to put him off the normal kids' course -- and also to emphasize his evilness, since C&L conveniently makes the chutes and ladders equivalent to moral decisions with the little illustrations. To keep it from being totally deterministic, there is only a 50% chance that he'll go up a chute or down a ladder that he ends up at the bottom/top of. Yeah, so it's not totally automated. Sauron also always moves up the board unless every player is below him, in which case he moves down by all the same rules he usually uses.

Players play normally except that they can choose to move up or down the board BEFORE they spin. If you land on another player you can push them directly down a level. This causes Sauron to move at the same time.

The goal is still to get to the final square and you can only get there by an exact spin. Kids who are overrun by Sauron are corrupted by his dark taint and are out of the game. I dunno, maybe they should become evil automatons or something.

I haven't had much time to think about Cadyland, but one stray idea is to somehow have the different locales/characters be corrupted by Sauron, making the spaces near them dangerous in some way. But what exactly that means, I dunno.