HAWKEN - Multiplayer Mech FPS

[Gabe Lewis]

I just saw the trailer for this on RPS. I have no idea when it's coming out but I love the look and feel of this game based on this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Zm7gEDhrPfk?version=3

Apparently this is being made by Adhesive games - a company with 9 employees total.

EDIT: Here's the RPS story (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/10/robot-rock-hawken-is-quite-the-indie-game/#more-53562)

[Gabe Lewis]

Also: 1,000th post!

[WarrenM]

Done with UDK!

And seriously impressive work. Those environments are really well done...

[forgeforsaken]

Wish it was a little slower paced. I like my mech games to be a bit clunkier in movement.

[Saxman_72]

Yup - looks great but the pacing is waaaaay to quick for my liking for a mech game. =(

[jason]

It looks pretty.

[Ben Sones]

Wow, that's impressive. Cool city.

[Ninyu]

Those cobbled together buildings would totally not support the weight of those Mechs. :) I also don't like the pace but it looks impressive.

[Alex2000]

Looks like the combat needs more work, but god I LOVE the look! Reminds me of that HL2 mod NEO-Tokyo which also had a great Ghost In The Shell / Masamune Shirow flair.

Watching it again. God the Ghost in the Shell look of the city is bang on. I love it. Love it!

Okay boys, now work on the Mech combat!

The worlds needs a good Mech game right now. But frankly, you could stick a generic shooter into that city you have built, and it would be a day one purchase for me I think...

[JoshV]

Agree nice look, but i don't like the combat, particularly the jump jet implementation, the physics seem awful. Cool that it was made with UDK, I really like that all these engines are out there and available for free.

[Teiman]

I think I have seen that visuals before as pure Artwork. Maybe the same artist?

Is the visuals you normally get for cool science-fiction books. Something you expect to see linked in io9.com

If this works, .... can we get a simmilar game about Ghost in the Shell? with similar fidelity to artwork. The internet f****g love the Tachikomas :D

[Hump]

that split-second of the in-cockpit view at the very end is stunning.

[Drunkagain]

Loved the look of that city. Wish it had been the setting for Crackdown 2.

[Shadari]

The style reminded me a bit of Borderlands.

[Bill]

That looks stunning, I love the style. I hope they go with a standard FPS interface, instead of the usual clunky one of rotating upper body separately from the lower.

[lordkosc]

Very nice video, was it in game?

[Derek Meister]

Wish it was a little slower paced. I like my mech games to be a bit clunkier in movement.

At the least, the giant mechs should move slower than the rockets flying towards them.

[Adree]

Nice cityscape but not up to par in this age to have a billion rockets flying around with none of the terrain blowing up.

[Brian Rubin]

Even though I'm not a big fan of multiplayer games, I love, love, love mechs, so I'm all over this one.

[TurinTur]

Very nice video, was it in game?

Yes. 12345

[forgeforsaken]

New gameplay footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udEAEARD-Fo&feature=player_embedded

[LeSquide]

New gameplay footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udEAEARD-Fo&feature=player_embedded


...That made me drool.

Apparently I'm conditioned to respond to totally sweet HUDs and mecha games.

[Dreamshadow]

...That made me drool.

Apparently I'm conditioned to respond to totally sweet HUDs and mecha games.

Agreed. I was drooling through the whole thing.

[Nathan Phoenix]

That's a huge improvement over the first video. The mechs actually seem to act like mechs instead of people with jetpacks!

[Telefrog]

That looks absolutely gorgeous.

[Becoming]

Wow, that looks great. I've never really been a mech game type of person, but I'm very interested in how that turns out now.

Very impressive for such a small team.

[Brian Rubin]

Apparently I'm conditioned to respond to totally sweet HUDs and mecha games.
Me too, I LOVE mech games, and this footage was TOTALLY compelling. I am sold, no question.

And that trailer made me wanna load up Heavy Gear 2 and play it all the way through again.

[Janster]

I like the youtube comments...

[Blips]

What is it about tons of metal, ordnance, gears and flames that is just so damn appealing?

[Brian Rubin]

I like the youtube comments...
Hahahaha


SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.

I WANT THIS INSIDE OF ME NOW
Hahahahahaha

[Jason McCullough]

Too fast-paced for me to care. Looks great though.

[Zak Gordon]

I would say it seems such a shame to limit this to simple MP kill-kill-kill action? What i wouldn't give for a bit of strategy, chasis design and payload customization, and for me personally, a decent sp campaign mode.

But yeah it looks great, the environments have great atmosphere and i'm sure it will be a fun blast. Ah Mech Commander we miss you and your potential.

[Harkonis]

Too fast-paced for me to care. Looks great though.

sadly I feel this way as well. Looks great, but if you're going to pace it that fast, why not just play something like Section 8.

[candide]

Gorgeous environments, but I liked the 3rd person view video better. The second one makes it look like a counter strike in a mecha suit clone.

[HRose]

Too fast-paced for me to care. Looks great though.
Same.

[lordkosc]

Indeed, these don't exactly feel like giant mech's :(

[Nathan Phoenix]

They look more like Heavy-Gear-esque mech suits to me.

[TurinTur]

Yeah, they are not "Heavy, slow, big, cumbersome" mech, more in the line of Masamune Shirow's mechs: advanced, strong, fast, precise. Enviroments are in fact Shirow's style...

But it's not a "fast fps". While it's not slow, it wouldn't call it too fast. The pace seems manageable. It's not Quake or MW2 or Tf2 being a scout.
Of course that's it if you compare it with other multiplayer fps, which it is this game, and don't compare with MechWarrior 3.

[Dan_Theman]

And I think that's the best description - it's a FPS, not a sim. It could be very fun to play, but I'd have to remind myself of that again and again.

[Sir Digby]

Gorgeous environments, but I liked the 3rd person view video better. .

Yeah, I loved the visuals but I really wish this was a 3rd person game instead of (yet another) FPS.

Gorgeous:

http://www.hawkengame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/shot_04.jpg

[liquorice]

It doesn't look 'fast' to me either, but it's not slow either. I think the word I'm looking for is deliberate.

Just getting a peak at the mechanics - overheating, missiles, zooming in - it looks like it might be much more strategic than reflex based. That is, mastery of the game would need more than just quick reflexes, but a strong grasp of the mechanics involved.

Which would be excellent.

[caesarbear]

I think it's a perfect speed. Reminds me of Robotech.

[Rorschach]

That's a huge improvement over the first video. The mechs actually seem to act like mechs instead of people with jetpacks!

Really? Maybe I'm too much of a BattleTech purist, but those multi-ton walking tanks ran around like oversized space marines or at best Heavy Gear mechs.

Still intrigued, but it looks like the gameplay is straight up FPS with jetpacks and a mech skin.

[forgeforsaken]

Really? Maybe I'm too much of a BattleTech purist, but those multi-ton walking tanks ran around like oversized space marines or at best Heavy Gear mechs.

Still intrigued, but it looks like the gameplay is straight up FPS with jetpacks and a mech skin.


I felt that way watching the 3rd person video but think it's alright watching the new first person video. I'd still like it to be a bit slower but I'm ok with the speed shown.

[liquorice]

It doesn't really look like straight-up FPS to me, with mechanics like overheating coming into play.

[Brian Rubin]

Aye, it reminds me of a slightly-faster-paced Heavy Gear to me, which I am fine with.

[Rorschach]

Hmmm... mechs are the next zombies. Fast vs. slow. :)

Isn't it a requirement that all fast mechs need skates? Maybe I'll be better off with Hawken's style if they put skates on the mechs.

[Brian Rubin]

Skates worked well on Gears.

And I guess it depends on the mech for the whole fast vs. slow argument. If you have large, lumbering tank-like mechs like Mechwarrior or Earthsiege, then it would make sense they would be slower than more nimble mechs like those from Heavy Gear or heck, even Terra Nova (which I think are tiny mechs in a sense).

[Stepsongrapes]

I think it's a perfect speed. Reminds me of Robotech.

Way too slow for Robotech/Macross.

Remember, you have to be a pre-pubescent boy/girl to have any chance of becoming an ace in the Macross universe. Basically, you gotta be a Starcraft champion with godly APM, and a Bieber haircut, who can dodge 100 weaving missiles without breaking a sweat.

Back on topic, while I enjoyed Heavy Gear, I think the Mechwarrior series is by far the pinnacle of Mech simulator games. The feel of these games has been unmatched, since. God, I loved waiting frantically for a weapon to cycle or for heat to drop so that you could fire that one last shot to take an enemy down before they did you in. Trying to limp to cover behind a building while a swarm of LRMs descended was also a nail biter.

[SpookyKG]

This might actually scratch my Tribes itch.

Take away the mech part (which I DO love), and the minigun + slower weapons against flying and jumping opponents + building turrets make it compare decently.

[Rorschach]

Skates worked well on Gears.

And I guess it depends on the mech for the whole fast vs. slow argument. If you have large, lumbering tank-like mechs like Mechwarrior or Earthsiege, then it would make sense they would be slower than more nimble mechs like those from Heavy Gear or heck, even Terra Nova (which I think are tiny mechs in a sense).

That didn't take long to extend a fast/slow mechs discussion into power armor vs. mechs discussion. :)

[Brian Rubin]

I honestly see 'em all as mechs, just of different sizes and variants.

[Rorschach]

If I had time and talent I'd draw up a cool infographic of the taxonomy and classification of mechs and power armor in games, movies, and other media.

[Brian Rubin]

Can you give me a brief rundown? I'm honestly curious.

[bluemax]

For reference a lot of the people involved in making this previously worked on Project Offset. The technical lead is apparently the main tools programmer from Project Offset.

[Gendal]

That trailer was gorgeous enough to peak my interest, even if it did seem a little fast. I did like the animation, the mechanical nature came across well.

[Rorschach]

Oh, I'd have to do some research to really do it justice but off the cuff:

Wearable Power Armor - arms and legs in the suit (not much bigger than human sized)

Mobile Infantry armor in Startship Toopers (the book)
Iron Man
Spartan (Halo)
Space Marines (WH40k)
Terra Nova armor


Mech / Armor that mimics human movement (roughly 2x human sized)

Aliens power loader
Most moden anime mechs (Appleseed et. al.)
Heavy Gear (I think)

You usually see the stubby human arms coming out of the torso in these mechs/suits.

Piloted Mechs (big guys)

Battletech
"Older" Anime mechs - Robotech, Evangelion, Voltron. :)
VTs from Steel Battalion
Shogo (The first Mech FPS)
Chromehounds

Sitting in a cockpit flipping switches, maybe a "neural" interface too.

Then of course there's fast vs. slow, skates (with the jet-skates variant,very popular in anime), jetpacks, transforming, integrated vs. carried weapons, etc. etc. etc.

[Brian Rubin]

Oohhh, I like that Rorschach. Makes sense too. HG I think fits where you put it, but you don't see stubby human arms.

And aahh Shogo, game deserved more attention than it got.

[Stepsongrapes]

Piloted Mechs (big guys)

Battletech
"Older" Anime mechs - Robotech, Evangelion, Voltron. :)
VTs from Steel Battalion
Shogo (The first Mech FPS)
Chromehounds


A fourth possible category would be "What the fuck?!" (e.g., titans of W40K). Some of those things have friggin' castles on top. Go big or go home.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn266/bobdeboner/misc2/emperor.jpg

[Brian Rubin]

Sheesus, WTF?

[MattKeil]

In this thread, old men lament their lapsed reflexes.

Game looks amazing, take my money now.



Shogo (The first Mech FPS)

Negative.

http://www.captainwilliams.co.uk/sega/saturn/images/gallery/gungriffontitle.jpg

Great breakdown, though. Gungriffon is of the jet-skates variety.

[ShivaX]

Rorschach nails what my impression of it was.

I don't think we're talking about Battletech sized mechs, its more akin to Elementals or the like from Battletech.

And Titans are awesome.

[Stepsongrapes]

In this thread, old men lament their lapsed reflexes.

Game looks amazing, take my money now.



Negative.

http://www.captainwilliams.co.uk/sega/saturn/images/gallery/gungriffontitle.jpg

Great breakdown, though. Gungriffon is of the jet-skates variety.

Dude, 1996? How about the first Mechwarrior game, 1989! It's first-person (cockpit view). I don't know if it is a "shooter" or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechWarrior_(video_game)

[Rorschach]

StepsonGrapes (1), yeah the city-block sized mechs... there's an anime that was called Big O on Cartoon Network that had big guys like that. I'd still consider them the piloted type.

MattKeil, did they have FPSs on consoles back then? :) I also forgot Virtual-On

StepsonGrapes (2), Mechwarrior wasn't an FPS, not even close.

[Stepsongrapes]

StepsonGrapes (2), Mechwarrior wasn't an FPS, not even close.

How are you defining FPS? Mechwarrior was first-person, and it involved shooting. It seems a pretty close match to Shogo (which, IIRC, was a giant mecha rather than a powered suit), other than the pace of the action.

I can see a definition of FPS that requires the view to be through the eyes of a character (e.g., not a screen or cockpit) but wouldn't that exclude Shogo? Are you focusing on control scheme or something, like mouselook?

[JoshV]

I like the more refined gameplay in the new vid more than the last one. I still think it needs more work though, as it still feels too much like a FPS shooter with a fancy cockpit. The focus on MP also seems a bit boring, hopefully they are doing that just because its easier to do in the beginning (considering its UDK and all that server code is there already)

I also dislike the over reliance on jump jets, but that's just my personal taste, I hate super nimble mechs with jump jets.

The game seriously needs some other vehicles or people, non playable or not, to give it a better sense of scale. Even if it was just parked destroyable cars in the street.

[Rorschach]

How are you defining FPS? Mechwarrior was first-person, and it involved shooting. It seems a pretty close match to Shogo (which, IIRC, was a giant mecha rather than a powered suit), other than the pace of the action.

I can see a definition of FPS that requires the view to be through the eyes of a character (e.g., not a screen or cockpit) but wouldn't that exclude Shogo? Are you focusing on control scheme or something, like mouselook?

The latter. WSAD + Mouselook or the console equivalent. But then if you use that as the sole defining characteristic then was Chromehounds an FPS? So maybe it's about gameplay beyond the usual run-n-gun FPS tropes. Things like heat, sensors, ammo management, weight, loadout beyond weapons, variable speed, etc.

Mechwarrior 1-4 was more of a mech sim with a complex control scheme and gameplay elements beyond what is in shooters today. It looks like Hawken is more on the side of FPS than Sim which makes sense considering how many copies of FPSs are sold versus mech sims.

Not saying it's a bad thing. It could be a great game, but every now and again I look over at my Steel Battalion controller or think about Chromehound nights and sigh at what could have been. From everything I've seen and read Hawken isn't that game.

[Stepsongrapes]

Not saying it's a bad thing. It could be a great game, but every now and again I look over at my Steel Battalion controller or think about Chromehound nights and sigh at what could have been. From everything I've seen and read Hawken isn't that game.

As SpookyKG mentioned on the previous page, Hawken definitely seems most analogous to Tribes. Lots of jumping and fast-paced vertical combat.

[JoshV]

How are you defining FPS? Mechwarrior was first-person, and it involved shooting. It seems a pretty close match to Shogo (which, IIRC, was a giant mecha rather than a powered suit), other than the pace of the action.

I can see a definition of FPS that requires the view to be through the eyes of a character (e.g., not a screen or cockpit) but wouldn't that exclude Shogo? Are you focusing on control scheme or something, like mouselook?

The main thing that Mechwarrior and other mech sims had over the FPS ones is that that you actually had a turret/torso, that wasn't always locked in the straightforward direction of movement, like in an FPS. It's a shame that that control scheme has died off in favor of the more simplistic FPS one.

[MattKeil]

MattKeil, did they have FPSs on consoles back then? :)

Yes, of course, as any player of Powerslave can tell you.


I also forgot Virtual-On

Virtual On wasn't a first-person game.


StepsonGrapes (2), Mechwarrior wasn't an FPS, not even close.

Yeah, I was assuming sim on Mechwarrior. Gungriffon is a fast-paced blast 'em up that I think qualifies, unless narrow corridors are a requirement for FPS categorization.

[Stepsongrapes]

The main thing that Mechwarrior and other mech sims had over the FPS ones is that that you actually had a turret/torso, that wasn't always locked in the straightforward direction of movement, like in an FPS. It's a shame that that control scheme has died off in favor of the more simplistic FPS one.

Does this really have a gameplay effect, though? It isn't like you can't strafe or move backwards in a traditional FPS. You're certainly not locked into the direction of movement for most FPSs (Resident Evil excepted).

What turrets did in Mechwarrior was give you more of a tank feel, because they couldn't be whipped around at lightning speed like a full mouselook. So, it really was the speed of the control, not the turret nature itself, that gives a different feel.

[JoshV]

Does this really have a gameplay effect, though? It isn't like you can't strafe or move backwards in a traditional FPS. You're certainly not locked into the direction of movement for most FPSs (Resident Evil excepted).

What turrets did in Mechwarrior was give you more of a tank feel, because they couldn't be whipped around at lightning speed like a full mouselook. So, it really was the speed of the control, not the turret nature itself, that gives a different feel.

It was also that you tended to have a bit more physics in the movement. Acceleration was there, and strafing or running backwards was done at a slower speed than forward movement, whereas FPS games tend to just have you always move at full speed regardless of whether you're strafing or running backwards.

But you're right, its the sense of control / responsiveness, the turreted nature is needed because the mechs were more simulated, they had mass / acceleration.

[MatthewF]

They remind me of these (http://www.google.com/images?q=lost+planet+vital+suit&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1920&bih=995). Piloted, not power armor, agile but still heavy.

[forgeforsaken]

The main thing that Mechwarrior and other mech sims had over the FPS ones is that that you actually had a turret/torso, that wasn't always locked in the straightforward direction of movement, like in an FPS. It's a shame that that control scheme has died off in favor of the more simplistic FPS one.


Chromehounds adopted a standard FPS style control scheme but still carried over a lot of movement from earlier mech games. You did move slower when going backwards and you did have a turn radius etc. Really it was the right way to do a mech game on a console with a standard controller. It still is kind of the high watermark for multiplayer mech games.

[Harkonis]

I still get irritated in normal FPS when you can move sideways and backwards at the same speed as forward. People just don't move like that and neither should mechs.

[Becoming]

For reference a lot of the people involved in making this previously worked on Project Offset. The technical lead is apparently the main tools programmer from Project Offset.

That's really cool, I was always disappointed that never came out after they got swallowed by Intel (what a waste that was). Hopefully this doesn't sit in limbo and vanish like Offset did.

[forgeforsaken]

IGN interview
http://pc.ign.com/articles/115/1158817p1.html

They talk about player movement in it.

[Sir Digby]

I still get irritated in normal FPS when you can move sideways and backwards at the same speed as forward. People just don't move like that and neither should mechs.

I know what you mean and I agree... sort of. People also don't just spawn back after getting killed so I think it's more of a "it's more fun this way" kind of deal, some want a faster paced game others want a slower paced one.

I'm with the "game seems too fast" crowd on this, or at least those mechs seem too fast. I hope they implement some sort of class/type of mech mechanic, then we could have heavier mechs which are slower but can take more punishment or even super heavy mechs that can't fly around but are moving bunkers... that could be an awesome game.

[Quitch]

Only just saw this thanks to an arstechnica article. Never been a mech fan outside of Earthsiege, but I loved how meaty everything in the video felt, from the city to the sounds to the movement. Then they started bunny hopping with jump jets and I'm not so sure about that.

With a Battleship like that though perhaps it'll be the Freespace 2 of FPS?

Actually, this quote will bring you mech fans some hope


As for how it plays, the first gameplay trailer showed off quite a bit of vertical gameplay—with mechs jump around a gritty urban environment via jetpacks. But, in reality the gameplay won't be quite so fast-paced.

"The jumping is kept in check with a fuel gauge that must be carefully managed," Lalli explained. "You can't just constantly bunny hop around. Our video showed a lot of flying and jumping because it looks cool, but in actuality you need to conserve your fuel for strategic moments or you will just be a sitting duck in battle. Gameplay-wise we're trying to meld the slower, immersive realism of simulation-type mech games like MechWarrior with the fast paced action of an arcade-style shooter like Virtual On. Hopefully that can create a balance that will appeal to fans of both styles."

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/04/hawken-interview.ars

[Aeon221]

I KEEP THROWING MONEY AT THE SCREEN BUT IT'S NOT TAKING IT.

That feels accurate.




Jon Kreuzer: Currently the weapons can be swapped out. There is an upgrade system where you can put points into categories that we're still working out the final details of. We also plan to do more with visual differentiation of the mechs in the future, so expect more variety than there is in the debut trailer.


Keep pressing my joybutton so hard and you're liable to get a face full of wet, sticky moneylove.


Jon Kreuzer: We have a boost meter that can run out with too much boosting, but will replenish with time. We don't have damage to individual parts of the mech that affects movement. There is something that could be considered a currency system where players can use energy units to power items in the world like turrets or generate new items for their mechs.


I'm not too concerned, but I imagine some folks will freak about this bit. Personally, I'm happy enough if I can run around in a giant metal monster and pound people with missiles. If I can also beat them to death with cars I will get extremely over excited.



"The jumping is kept in check with a fuel gauge that must be carefully managed," Lalli explained. "You can't just constantly bunny hop around. Our video showed a lot of flying and jumping because it looks cool, but in actuality you need to conserve your fuel for strategic moments or you will just be a sitting duck in battle. Gameplay-wise we're trying to meld the slower, immersive realism of simulation-type mech games like MechWarrior with the fast paced action of an arcade-style shooter like Virtual On. Hopefully that can create a balance that will appeal to fans of both styles."

This might soothe the omg speed mecha action crowd.


Final Thoughts: With indie teams like this one popping onto the scene, I'm pretty hopeful for the future of PC Gaming. Free engines seem to have dropped the barriers to entry significantly, and that's both huge and hugely awesome. I hope we'll see more badass shit of this type soon.

Not too concerned about the lack of destructible environment, that seems like a pointless tacked on element in so many games. Good play beats broken buildings.

But I do demand the ability to beat other mechs to death with cars. Why that isn't in the game is utterly beyond me. Mechs seem perfect for that sort of thing. Bah!

Giant spaceship of doom floating over the battlefield is a cool mechanic and I'm happy to see it. Not sure what role it plays, but hopefully it'll blend in seamlessly with the game.

One thing I would like to see is a game of this type based around the concept of mercenary action, sort of like where CCP's Dust game is going. Pissing your pants because you're low on cash and need a few kills for cash or it's back to the starter mech is an awesome concept, as is the need to loot enemy kills for upgrades.

Art is great. Very arty.

All in all, I'll be happy if I get to zip around, blow people up and tinker with mech fits. Awesome is making arty bots, knife fighters, zippy scouts and trundling doom bots and smashing them together with pretty explosions.

[Resonance]

I'm with the "game seems too fast" crowd on this, or at least those mechs seem too fast. I hope they implement some sort of class/type of mech mechanic, then we could have heavier mechs which are slower but can take more punishment or even super heavy mechs that can't fly around but are moving bunkers... that could be an awesome game.

I'm actually glad the game is looking so fast paced. It seems like every FPS from Halo forward has been trying to slow down the movement to make game less twitchy. Which has left us Quakey twitch fans in the dark.

[Brian Rubin]

Is it weird that this game, above all others, is the one that really makes me wanna upgrade my PC ASAP?

[JoshV]

Not too concerned about the lack of destructible environment, that seems like a pointless tacked on element in so many games. Good play beats broken buildings.


UDK actually supports destructible walls/buildings, so we could see this in the game, but they are a small team, so I can understand wanting to focus on the essentials.

[Universal Leader]

Mechs + destructible environments would be awesome, however.

I'm a little disappointed in the lack of location-specific damage, which was a huge part of the strategy in the Mechwarrior games. I have many fond memories of piloting a light mech and defeating a larger, stronger enemy by disabling its weapon systems or legs.

Having to manage fuel usage and cooldowns is a plus, however.

The smaller, more agile mechs also remind me of Heavy Gear 2, which I preferred to the Mechwarrior games.

[Tankero]

I wish I had the technical expertise to get involved in a project like this.

[JoshV]

I wish I had the technical expertise to get involved in a project like this.

These days, you don't actually need that much. They are using UDK, which gives you access to some very powerful tools. You don't need to know any advanced 3D math (it helps though, but not required), no crazy graphics tricks. You do still need good artists and animators and scripters, but if your game isn't fun without art and animation, then your game probably isn't going to be any more fun when it gets those things.

If you're interested, I suggest downloading one of the free game engines out there, either UDK or Unity, and taking a look, they both have video tutorials on how to get started and set things up.

[Tankero]

Hey. HEY! Stop ruining my wistful ennui with helpful suggestions that involve me devoting TIME and EFFORT into something I say I want to do! This isn't about me getting shit done. It's about posturing that, if I had the ability, I'd get shit done! Now the illusion is ruined! RUINED!

How dare you...

[Sir Digby]

Hey. HEY! Stop ruining my wistful ennui with helpful suggestions that involve me devoting TIME and EFFORT into something I say I want to do! This isn't about me getting shit done. It's about posturing that, if I had the ability, I'd get shit done! Now the illusion is ruined! RUINED!

How dare you...

Are you my long lost evil twin brother?

Back on topic, IGN interview with Adhesive's art director Khang Le and technical lead Jon Kreuzer:

http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/115/1158817p1.html

[MattKeil]

So we did a preview/interview on this. Normally I don't pimp our stuff here but there's previously unseen footage in this they captured just for us, so I thought people might want to see it.

http://www.g4tv.com/videos/52755/hawken-first-look-preview/

[Harkonis]

thanks Matt, was a nice preview

[Jasper Phillips]

Looks awesome. I love the fast appleseed style mechs, and the urban environments.

[Timex]

Only problems I see are that the customization of mechs seems a bit light, and there doesn't appear to be a complex damage model. Other than that, it looks slick.

[MattKeil]

They're purposefully limiting customization, but I do wonder if more damage (both environmental and player) might make it in before final.

[Jasper Phillips]

Limiting customization does seem like a pity. These sorts of games really thrive on having more than just weapon swapping.

Thinking about it a bit more, it's not so much the customization that I necessarily care about, but rather the variety. Virtua On worked just fine without customization, though I still feel it'd have been better with it.

[TurinTur]

They're purposefully limiting customization, but I do wonder if more damage (both environmental and player) might make it in before final.

Forget environmental damage, it's not something it can be slapped in an engine easily. If that would be the case, every game would have it, instead of only BC2, RF Guerrilla, and little else.

[MattKeil]

Limiting customization does seem like a pity. These sorts of games really thrive on having more than just weapon swapping.

Thinking about it a bit more, it's not so much the customization that I necessarily care about, but rather the variety. Virtua On worked just fine without customization, though I still feel it'd have been better with it.

Customization would have destroyed Virtual On's balance. I will not miss it in Hawken, given the type of game they're trying to make.

[Jasper Phillips]

I simply disagree with that.

[Sir Digby]

I agree somewhat; visual customization is always nice and adds that little something that makes you different or identifies you as a clan/group member, and according to them they have a rpg-like points system which supposedly will give you bonus in one area in detriment of another which is also nice.

That said, I think having limited weapon types per mech is the way to go to prevent having "overpowered" builds or simple completely inefficient ones.

[Timex]

I agree somewhat; visual customization is always nice and adds that little something that makes you different or identifies you as a clan/group member, and according to them they have a rpg-like points system which supposedly will give you bonus in one area in detriment of another which is also nice.

That said, I think having limited weapon types per mech is the way to go to prevent having "overpowered" builds or simple completely inefficient ones.

Balance always becomes an issue with customization, although that is not the same as saying you cannot have both.

Games like Mechwarrior had such insanely long lifetimes largely as a result of the customization aspect.

Aside from the huge amount of fun that stemmed from being able to come up with new mech designs (Chromehounds took this to an even more awesome level), the result was that you ended up having a bunch of extremely different playstyles supported. You also had a shifting community, as strong builds became widely used, which would then lead to the rise of other builds which were specifically designed to exploit their weaknesses.

In mechwarrior 4, eventually things settled on laser-heavy loadouts, but this was primarilly due to the outdated netcode in the game which gave a large advantage to instant hit weapons once they made the hit detection take place on the server side. This was a technical issue rather than a straight up balance issue.

And yet, even so, my unit would consistently run lances built of mechs designed specifically to counter laser heavy groups. Weapons like PPC's, LBX, Missiles, and Flamers would ruin the majority of players in that game. However, using those weapons effectively meant you had to run on a higher level of strategic play in order to specifically force your opponent to fight in situations which weren't ideal for the lasers. It was harder to do, but it was extremely effective when done right, such that we managed to dominate multiple leagues using tactics and builds using weapons which were not considered "top tier" (read: not clan ER-LL).

There was something to be said for the level of amusement we got out of using mechs and weapons which were considered trash by many players, only to uttery destroy their expensive, top-tier mechs. Taking out a star of top notch clan mechs, all sporting clan ER-LL's, with mechs like Hunchbacks running longtoms and machine guns was hillarious.

Another fun aspect was when some "new" thing would be discovered.. like the fact you could run huge numbers of CSRM-4's, and make crazy knock-down machines. For the majority of the game's life, virtually no one ran CSRM-4's. Looking at the stats, they were inferior to CSRM-6's. But they delivered their damage in two bursts instead of 3, which proved to be perfect for knocking down mechs. You could run light-medium mechs capable of knocking down assaults.

Don't get me wrong... I know the issues with trying to achieve balance with a wide variety of weapons and builds. But if you do it right, you can add some really awesome aspects to the game, and extend its lifetime by quite a lot.

[MattKeil]

But none of that is what Hawken is trying to do. They're trying to make a fast-paced, tightly balanced competitive multiplayer shooter with a fuel-management aspect. Not every mech game has to be Mechwarrior, and I applaud them for not trying to be.

[Timex]

Ya, I understand that completely. And yet, I want a new mechwarrior game.

[Brian Rubin]

Ya, I understand that completely. And yet, I want a new mechwarrior game.
You're not alone in that. Not at all. Sigh.

[MattKeil]

I want one too. Hopefully that Mechwarrior project is still moving forward. Hell, if Hawken is successful, maybe these guys will then have the resources to make a more complex mech game as a followup.

[Sir Digby]

Ya, I understand that completely. And yet, I want a new mechwarrior game.

After reading your previous post I want it too. I never played Mechwarrior online but just reading about it makes me want to try it. :)

[Jasper Phillips]

But none of that is what Hawken is trying to do. They're trying to make a fast-paced, tightly balanced competitive multiplayer shooter with a fuel-management aspect. Not every mech game has to be Mechwarrior, and I applaud them for not trying to be.
I would phrase that differently -- not every game has to use stock FPS mechanics. I mean, I like what I see, but the weapon switching point-and-shoot fixed classes schtick is done far more often than something like Mechwarrior.

[Brian Rubin]

After reading your previous post I want it too. I never played Mechwarrior online but just reading about it makes me want to try it. :)
You can get MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries (http://www.mektek.net/) for free these days. ;)

[MattKeil]

I would phrase that differently -- not every game has to use stock FPS mechanics. I mean, I like what I see, but the weapon switching point-and-shoot fixed classes schtick is done far more often than something like Mechwarrior.

Not like Hawken does it, it isn't.

And considering how many damn Armored Core games have been made, I'd say you're on thin ice with that statement.

[Jasper Phillips]

Compared to how many FPSs have been made? Hardly! ;-P

[Timex]

After reading your previous post I want it too. I never played Mechwarrior online but just reading about it makes me want to try it. :)

The community is still, amazingly, alive.

Go check out NetBattleTech, also known as NBT. They were one of the larger planetary leagues, back in the day... kept things going longer than most.

I'm not sure, but I think they actually STILL have a MW4 based league running.

It really was a great game. Played with the same group of guys for years.

As I mentioned previously, you may find Chromehounds to be interesting too, although I'm not sure if the servers for it are still online. It was probably the best console based mech game, ever. In many ways, its complexity actually went beyond what MW4 offered. Was a fun game if you really liked the mech customization aspect.

Both games demonstrated what made a complex damage model cool in terms of making the gameplay deeper.

In MW4, there were many configs which were extremely powerful... but they were also easilly neutered, because all of their weapons were exposed in their arms. (The catapult comes to mind, with everything in its huge ears) Our drop commander would tend to forbid us from taking configs that didn't have at least some punch in the torso. If you really knew the mechs' hardpoints, you could often know exactly how to deal with them... especially once you saw the kinds of weapons they were using. You could know that if you took out a certain section of a mech, that mech was basically useless for the rest of the fight, so you didn't even have to bother killing it until later.

Chromehounds took this even further, by allowing you to basically plug components together however you wanted, so you could build armor out of the weapons and use them to protect things like your cockpit. They also introduced the notion of the primary weapon in a firing group being the location of the camera, so if you wanted to fire the group in first person mode, with a reticle, you needed to have that gun operational.. if that gun got destroyed, then while the other guns in that group were still operational, you were kind of firing them blind since the gun camera would just show static.

I believe whatshisface actually bought the mechwarrior license, and was gonna make another game in the series with his new company "Tinker and Smith", but I get the feeling that plan crapped out, since I Haven't heard anything about it ages.

[Jarrodhk]

Hawken looks great, and will probably be a lot of fun. However, for me, I really really prefer the Chromehounds/Mechwarrior approach to mechs.

Hawken seems to be much closer to the 'powered armor' approach than the other two.

I enjoy the hectic side-dashing/jump jetting/etc as well, but, no one seems to be doing the slower paced 'inertia filled' side anymore. I guess because most online players are at least perceived as getting bored and quitting games if they are not involved in shooting every instant of the game.

Heck, I still want someone to do a modern/up scaled version of Terra Nova.

[JoshV]

Hawken looks great, and will probably be a lot of fun. However, for me, I really really prefer the Chromehounds/Mechwarrior approach to mechs.

Hawken seems to be much closer to the 'powered armor' approach than the other two.

I enjoy the hectic side-dashing/jump jetting/etc as well, but, no one seems to be doing the slower paced 'inertia filled' side anymore. I guess because most online players are at least perceived as getting bored and quitting games if they are not involved in shooting every instant of the game.

Heck, I still want someone to do a modern/up scaled version of Terra Nova.

Yeah, its a bit of a sad day that most of my mechwarrior itch is getting scratched by World of Tanks.

[Harkonis]

that's why I've been playing WoT, closest we have right now for the slower paced movement with turret/torso :)

[Abilio Carvalho]

The community is still, amazingly, alive.

Go check out NetBattleTech, also known as NBT. They were one of the larger planetary leagues, back in the day... kept things going longer than most.

I'm not sure, but I think they actually STILL have a MW4 based league running.

It really was a great game. Played with the same group of guys for years.

As I mentioned previously, you may find Chromehounds to be interesting too, although I'm not sure if the servers for it are still online. It was probably the best console based mech game, ever. In many ways, its complexity actually went beyond what MW4 offered. Was a fun game if you really liked the mech customization aspect.

Both games demonstrated what made a complex damage model cool in terms of making the gameplay deeper.

In MW4, there were many configs which were extremely powerful... but they were also easilly neutered, because all of their weapons were exposed in their arms. (The catapult comes to mind, with everything in its huge ears) Our drop commander would tend to forbid us from taking configs that didn't have at least some punch in the torso. If you really knew the mechs' hardpoints, you could often know exactly how to deal with them... especially once you saw the kinds of weapons they were using. You could know that if you took out a certain section of a mech, that mech was basically useless for the rest of the fight, so you didn't even have to bother killing it until later.

Chromehounds took this even further, by allowing you to basically plug components together however you wanted, so you could build armor out of the weapons and use them to protect things like your cockpit. They also introduced the notion of the primary weapon in a firing group being the location of the camera, so if you wanted to fire the group in first person mode, with a reticle, you needed to have that gun operational.. if that gun got destroyed, then while the other guns in that group were still operational, you were kind of firing them blind since the gun camera would just show static.

I believe whatshisface actually bought the mechwarrior license, and was gonna make another game in the series with his new company "Tinker and Smith", but I get the feeling that plan crapped out, since I Haven't heard anything about it ages.


God, Chromehounds was amazing. I never got THAT much into the online part, but the single player portion was already good enough to scratch the mech itch for me (I S-ranked all missions except one. Grrr). The concept of the commander mech was jaw dropping. The customization was incredible. Such a gem. Only criticism I have of it in the single player side is that they gave you a mech for every mission, basically sidestepping the salvaging and customization aspect of it. You needed to do it to get some S-ranks, but you could finish the game with no problems just by using the default mechs, which was a shame.

[TurinTur]

But none of that is what Hawken is trying to do. They're trying to make a fast-paced, tightly balanced competitive multiplayer shooter with a fuel-management aspect. Not every mech game has to be Mechwarrior, and I applaud them for not trying to be.

There already lots of full featured competitive fast shooters with tons of customization. CoD. Brink. Section 8. Crysis 2. Medal of Honor. Etc etc. In each one you can choose weapons, weapon addons, ammo types, misc. gear, special perks (or modules in S8 case), killstreaks and deathstreaks in Cod, etc etc

All that customization is not that far away from customizating your mech in Mechwarrior 4.

[Timex]

The chief difference that you got from customization of mechs in Chromehounds or MW, was that you were actually loading various weapons, ammo, and armor onto different sections of the mechs.

When combined with localized damage modeling, it added a whole new level of depth to the game. You were no longer a singular point in the game. You were a giant robot, with arms, legs, etc. You'd have to do things like shield your damaged sections... or specifically aim for particular sections in order to cripple/disarm mechs.

This, in turn, added a new level of depth to the piloting, because it required you to do thngs that most shooters don't... namely, engage an enemy while actually not looking directly at him most of the time except to fire certain guns. So, you'd fire off your weapons, and then look away, showing the enemy some particularly heavilly armored section of your mech to protect your weak spots.

Even a game like WoT doesn't really do this that much, although there is some aspect of it. It's got some decent damage modeling, but it's not quite as transparent as it was in MW4. There's some aspect of the damage modeling in WoT which seems a little more random than I'd like.

[Xaroc]

As I mentioned previously, you may find Chromehounds to be interesting too, although I'm not sure if the servers for it are still online. It was probably the best console based mech game, ever. In many ways, its complexity actually went beyond what MW4 offered. Was a fun game if you really liked the mech customization aspect.


The Chromehounds servers are not online anymore. What a great game.

[Timex]

It suffered heavily from being so early in XBL's lifecycle on the 360, I think there were still kinks in the whole network setup.

If they're not online any more though, then the game is pretty dead. While the other guy said he liked the single player, that's not really where the action was at in my opinion. That game was all about online competition.

One thing that was interesting about Chromehounds, was that if I recall it was made by the same guys who made the Armored Core series. And yet, despite being made by a Japanese developer, it was solidly within the "Western mecha" branch of giant robot games. Much more in line with mechwarrior and battletech then it was with the Gundam style stuff you see in AC (ie. you're fighting in war machines, rather than super fast things that can just zoom around all over the place).

It's always interesting to see the fans of this kind of game come out of the woodwork when something shows up... but for some reason, developers just don't seem to want to really go in this direction.

If I recall, Mechwarrior 4, and it's various expansion packs, actually made Microsoft a freaking mountain of money.

Why don't you guys want to make a mountain of money?!

[Xaroc]

Single player Chromehounds was pretty boring. Online was where the action was at. The dynamic war was pretty clever.

[Tankero]

Why don't you guys want to make a mountain of money?! Because they didn't make Microsoft a mountain of money. A mound? Sure, they made a mound, but not a mountain, and this was back when a mound was an abysmal failure, when launching the next CounterStrike was the one and only goal every game could ever aspire to.

The long and short of why Mecha games are not a seasonal thing like FPS/RTS/RPGs is because making a mecha game that isn't an "guy in a rubber suit FPS" is actually quite difficult. It's like making a sim without anything to really go on, which is both a good and a bad thing, but makes the endeavor such a proposition that undertaking it isn't really that appealing to developers or publishers. How do you make players understand the weight and momentum of these imaginary machines they're driving without making it seem "slow", or the aforementioned "guy in rubber suit"?

And the licencing. Holy fuck the licencing. Do you go with Mechwarrior against old-faithful Harmony Fucking Gold? Do you go for a less-known brand like Heavy Gear, or some Anime only your third-string coder's heard of?

If you make your own, you have to come up with an original world concept and try to establish a new brand with no history and unproven ideas. Fast mechs? Slow mechs? Power-ups?

By the end of even talking about it, there's some FASA geek out on your lawn trying to set a paper bag full of dogshit on fire, with a guy holding a love pillow in a Roy Fokker cover as a lookout, and you haven't even announced your game yet. There's just too much grief for little payoff.

[Teiman]

Jesus!

This game is maybe the first to really recreate a Sci-Fi world in a videogame (bar some parallax backgrounds in some 2D games), Is amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udEAEARD-Fo&feature=player_embedded

[schurem]

lolwut?!

[Teiman]

lolwut?!

Sorry.. clarification:

IMHO this sci-fi is more in the line of Ghost in the Shell than space opera with ridiculous pants.

[Quitch]

He's referring to the fact that this has been posted, and commented on, up-thread.

[Teiman]

He's referring to the fact that this has been posted, and commented on, up-thread.

Oh, I checked all the pages for this particular video. Seems I missed it. Sorry.

[Timex]

Because they didn't make Microsoft a mountain of money. A mound? Sure, they made a mound, but not a mountain, and this was back when a mound was an abysmal failure, when launching the next CounterStrike was the one and only goal every game could ever aspire to.

The long and short of why Mecha games are not a seasonal thing like FPS/RTS/RPGs is because making a mecha game that isn't an "guy in a rubber suit FPS" is actually quite difficult. It's like making a sim without anything to really go on, which is both a good and a bad thing, but makes the endeavor such a proposition that undertaking it isn't really that appealing to developers or publishers. How do you make players understand the weight and momentum of these imaginary machines they're driving without making it seem "slow", or the aforementioned "guy in rubber suit"?

And the licencing. Holy fuck the licencing. Do you go with Mechwarrior against old-faithful Harmony Fucking Gold? Do you go for a less-known brand like Heavy Gear, or some Anime only your third-string coder's heard of?

If you make your own, you have to come up with an original world concept and try to establish a new brand with no history and unproven ideas. Fast mechs? Slow mechs? Power-ups?

By the end of even talking about it, there's some FASA geek out on your lawn trying to set a paper bag full of dogshit on fire, with a guy holding a love pillow in a Roy Fokker cover as a lookout, and you haven't even announced your game yet. There's just too much grief for little payoff.

I dunno man, Mechwarrior 4 made a pretty good chunk of money for MS, I believe.

Now, of course games back then weren't what they are now... No one was selling a million copies of anything.

But MS sold a lot of copies of MW4, and they continued to sell a lot of copies of expansion packs and junk.. which must have had extremely little monetary investment on their part to ship out the door.

At this point, it's an old game, so lots of folks don't even know what the mechwarrior franchise is any more.. but that's largely because the series kind of just ended and they haven't made a new one for a long time.

For its day, I think it actually did pretty well in terms of sales and critical acclaim.

[Tankero]

It made less money than you think it did. Now, I know it's not indicative of anything, but FASAi was shut down after MW4 and its expansions.

[maxle]

Now, of course games back then weren't what they are now... No one was selling a million copies of anything.
.

Actually


Half-Life's public reception was overwhelmingly positive in terms of reviews, acclaim and sales. As of November 16, 2004, eight million copies of the game had been sold,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_%28video_game%29#cite_note-halflifesales-6) while 9.3 million copies had been sold by 2008.[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_%28video_game%29#cite_note-56) The game has won over 50 Game of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_the_Year) awards.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_%28video_game%29#cite_note-goty-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_%28video_game%29#cite_note-goty2-4)


In late 1995, Doom was estimated to be installed on more computers worldwide than Microsoft's new operating system Windows 95, despite million-dollar advertising campaigns for the latter.

[Timex]

Ya, although those games are kind of epic... I mean, consider that the original Half-Life came out in 1998, and sold a million copies in a single year, ten years after its original release.

Failing to meet the benchmark set by what is arguably the best video game ever made isn't the same thing as failing.

I would guess that Starcraft also falls into the category of "bazillion of sales", since I think they give kids a copy when they're born in Korea.

Mechwarrior 4: Vengeance won the award for best simulation at E3 when it came out... the BK expansion won game of the year from Gamespot's reader's choice. The game really did do pretty damn well.

I can't find any hard sales numbers though, so it's possible I'm just looking through the lens of nostalgia.


It made less money than you think it did. Now, I know it's not indicative of anything, but FASAi was shut down after MW4 and its expansions.
FASA made other games before closing its doors. Shadowrun was, I believe, the final product they "shipped". I put that in quotes because it was obviously unfinished when they sent it out.

Also, remember that after MW4, they pursued not one, but TWO terrible console incarnations in the form of the Mech Assault series.

I think it's incorrect to try and blame FASA's failure on mechwarrior... I tend to think that their failure stemmed in some non-trivial way from their abandonment of Mechwarrior. (although I'm biased, and I know they made other popular games like that combat flight sim)

[Tankero]

MechAssault was done by another developer, contracted by MS independently from FASAi, which is more symptomatic of the perception they had of FASAi than anything else. Their flight sim game, Crimson Skies, was basically MW4 with wings, and it was... moderately successful, much like MW4. See, these games were 'critically acclaimed' mostly on the basis of the series being so very much loved rather than any of its own merits. Trust me, I know that game back and forth, and it starts coming apart pretty badly once you're past the Ooooh! Mechs! stage. There was a balancing act between the 'sim' and 'action' components of the game that ended up skewing towards the action end of the spectrum, making it quite shallow after that first hour.

Regardless, FASAi's history speaks for itself.

[Timex]

Trust me, I know that game back and forth, and it starts coming apart pretty badly once you're past the Ooooh! Mechs! stage.
I played the game competitively online for years, and I actually never really cared that much about Battletech itself... So, at least for me, the game itself had quite a lot of value beyond the "Oooh! Mechs!" aspect.


There was a balancing act between the 'sim' and 'action' components of the game that ended up skewing towards the action end of the spectrum, making it quite shallow after that first hour.
Ah... are you talking about the single player campaign? If so, then I can understand where you're coming from. I didn't really care about the single player campaign in any of the mechwarrior games.

[Tankero]

Punctually speaking, I'm talking about the fact that there were game mechanics that, once you got past the base level of skill and allowed players to choose their own weapons, became largely irrelevant. At that level, there was one weapon that outmatched everything else several times over (ERLL) and a mech chassis that could mount enough of them to two-shot anything else in the game (Novacat).

Expansion after expansion, those facts never changed. They added half-implemented weapons like the Long Tom with a ballistic trajectory, the RAC guns and different laser types in an attempt to spice things up, but the game's basic dynamic never changed. Other mechanics like armor types also had little to no effect on the game as a whole.

I'm surprised that you didn't realize what I was talking about, if you played competitively.

[JoshV]

Nah, I think Mechwwarrior 2 probably sold the best, and then like most sequels, each following one sold less and less. (Note this is conjecture)

Heh, I didn't play competitively but I did play the novacat quite a bit if i remember, it was this squat little thing that you could put a ton of lasers on.

[Timex]

But that's the thing, while that was the common perception, it wasn't in fact the hard and fast truth that many people believed it to be. It was how our unit managed to consistently beat people who thought that the ERLL was the end-all-be-all to the game... Because, while it was certainly the most consistent weapon, and loadouts that carried it were likewise consistent, it was possible to leverage other, less used weapons, and utterly destroy the laserboat teams through tactical maneuvering of a lance.

A lot of this focused on forcing fights to take place at extremely long range, where the ERLL was outranged, or at close range where the ERLL lost out in terms of damage efficiency to other weapon types.

For instance, I often ran a twin-erPPC Loki as a scout mech. If you stripped armor in the right places, you could get that thing running at an exceptionally high speed, to the extent that laser boats really couldn't close on it, and two ERPPC's packed a pretty good wallop. That mech did some major damage to teams who relied on focused ERLL alphas, weakening them heavilly if not outright killing/disabling mechs prior to full lance engagement.

Likewise, while it wasn't nearly as heavily utilized as the ERLL, the ERLPL was actually a superior weapon in terms of damage efficiency. But it required more skill to employ effectively. It was an awesome weapon for getting kills on mechs in less than one second, since you could generate two quick hits and defeat the OHK protection on a mech's head.

You mention the Longtom, and my unit actually heavily utilized that mech in league play. I personally often drove the LT mech, running a hunchback with its speed cranked. Once you learned how to range it, you could devastate teams with it, especially since the splash damage could go through walls if you landed it right. Again, it was useful against the teams which depended on the "invincible" ERLL, since the LT could kill them without receiving any return fire at all... since there was no direct line of fire. Often, the LT mech would force the enemy to decide between either camping and continuing to take massive damage from the LT, or rush with ERLL's against a team which was far more prepared for the infight... and both of those options tended to go very poorly for them.

That's the thing. Without question, the ERLL was the best weapon in the game... But it had weaknesses. And those weaknesses could be exploited, if a team was disciplined and well organized. While the ERLL was the best all-around weapon, there were various tactical situations where other weapons became better than the ERLL.


Heh, I didn't play competitively but I did play the novacat quite a bit if i remember, it was this squat little thing that you could put a ton of lasers on.
The novacat had two big arms connected directly at its shoulders. The mech had the advantage of having all of its guns at eye-level, and was used a lot by teams that liked to "hill-hump". The weakness was that the arms were easy to hit, and if you took off one of them, you ripped off half the thing's guns.

Also, a lot of the folks who ran that config tended to strip their leg armor down. Once you got close, they tended to pop real fast to leg shots.

The mech you may be thinking of (especially if you're thinking of MW2) was the Nova (no cat). It was a medium weight chassis that was similar in that it could mount a boatload of lasers.

In MW2 it was hillarious too, since the JJ's in that game let you basically rush up to an enemy at 700kph, fire an alpha, and then fly away at 700kph while you waited to cool down.

[Tankero]

So, you basically had to play twice as well to beat a team that was using the ERLL. How long would you think most people would tolerate that? And how is that good game design?

[Timex]

Well, we liked the fact that you could win based on tactics, rather than pure FPS skills. That's actually what added a large amount of depth to the game. I totally understand that this isn't the kind of thing that would appeal to casual players, but being able to win "your own way" is something that made the game very cool.

Also, we played in various planetary leagues, where you had to actually buy your mechs. The "top tier" mechs were expensive, where as the "garbage" mechs were cheap. We also tended to play the role of Mercenary units, so we'd often be dropped on a planet which was considered a lost cause, and asked to just do as much damage as possible to the invading force with the remnants of the garrison.

And in the entirety of my gaming career, few things have been as satisfying in a video game as taking over a planetary defense on the brink of collapse, and pushing a full clan invasion force off world using mechs like hellspawn and uziels going up against top tier laserboat mechs... and going back to your employers the next day and saying, "We defended your world for you. Oh, by the way, we put the enemy into forced retreat so we took 80% of their remaining force, so your planet is now garrisoned with brand new clan chassis."

It wasn't the same kind of play as I get out of Call of Duty.. but that's what made the game so damn cool, and it's what makes me so eager to see another game of its type come along.

[Tankero]

You mention casual players and depth, but you realize that it's all just your own team handicapping itself, don't you? If you had just abandoned all the fancy weapons and employed the same tactical skill with ERLLs instead of anything else, you would have absolutely demolished every other team out there. This isn't about a casual vs. hardcore argument; it's about being able to play the game competitively against people with the same level of skill as you.

Also, you mention a whole lot of features that just weren't in the game. You bolted all the planetary league/gameplay on yourselves by using systems that've been around since MW2. Did MW4 support these out of the box? Did you invade planets in MW4, or maps? Everything you've said worked just as well in MW2: Mercs, if not better. The game, in fact, wasn't what you actually remember; it's the league. The game was just the vehicle for the actual game you were playing.

[Timex]

You mention casual players and depth, but you realize that it's all just your own team handicapping itself, don't you? If you had just abandoned all the fancy weapons and employed the same tactical skill with ERLLs instead of anything else, you would have absolutely demolished every other team out there
Ah.. but no, that's not really what we were doing.

See, if we had just boated ERLL's, then it'd have reduced down to much more basic stuff, like pure gunnery skills.

Various weapons, like the ERPPC's, or CSTRKS, or LBX.. In certain situations, those weapons were better than the ERLL. So, by using those other weapons, and then using good tactics and coordination (which is really the essence of armor based combat), we were able to achieve victories which were far more one sided than if we had simply chosen to boat the lasers ourselves.

That's the thing, it wasn't purely taking crappy mechs just for the sake of taking crappy mechs (although we did that periodically just for laughs, like taking nothing but machine guns), but using those weapons which were often regarded as "inferior" in a manner which actually made them superior weapons.

The Longtom usage I described above was probably the most extreme example of this. When used correctly, the Longtom ruined laserboats, because they literally could not return fire against it. Using that weapon, while it required specialized skill, was in no way handicapping our team. It was extremely effective.

(also, just for the record, it's worth noting that the dominance of the ERLL actually was something that wasn't always the case in MW4. That weapon became the go-to-gun for many pilots after the first patch, when hit detection was moved to the server from the client. Prior to that change, weapons like the ERPPC, Light Gauss, and LBX dominated the usage stats... but that was long ago.)

Also, you mention a whole lot of features that just weren't in the game. You bolted all the planetary league/gameplay on yourselves by using systems that've been around since MW2. Did MW4 support these out of the box? Did you invade planets in MW4, or maps? Everything you've said worked just as well in MW2: Mercs, if not better. The game, in fact, wasn't what you actually remember; it's the league. The game was just the vehicle for the actual game you were playing.
Oh, I fully realize that the league added forces which heightened our enjoyment of the game, but the game itself was special in how it supported the league. You couldn't really have the same kind of league built on top of a standard FPS.

There's something about that type of game, which has a more ponderous feel to it, which is hard to find in modern games. Chromehounds came really damn close, and if it wasn't for the failure of their online network, it could have been something really cool I think.

It may be that I'm just part of a little tiny niche, not worth game developers going after... I'm willing to accept that may be the case. But at the same time, it seems like there's a void in the current offerings of games out there, and if someone steps up and fills that void, there have to be a good number of people who'd enjoy that kind of game.

And maybe you're not arguing against that, but just against my admittedly rosy recollection of MW4? If so, that's cool. I played the hell out of that game for years upon years, so I admit that I look back on it with a certain degree of nostalgia. But there was a reason I played it for years upon years. :)

[Tankero]

Absolutely everything you've described boils down to massively out-playing your opponents. Because, all things being equal, the people fielding the best weapon, like you say here...


Without question, the ERLL was the best weapon in the game...


...should always win. I'll grant you the fact that if you came across a team that trickled in at you or sat motionless somewhere vulnerable, you will be able to beat them regardless of what they field. But if you ever came across a team that matched you in skill, then they would have the advantage of using the best weapon in the game, several times over, and you wouldn't.

In regards to league play, you're just wrong in saying that MW4 did anything to support it. There was absolutely nothing in the game that had been built into it with league play in mind. The matches were structured around common FPS norms, and there were some very hard technical limitations as to what they modding community could do unless they hacked the Hell out of the game, which wasn't possible until years after its popularity had waned.

The developers didn't go after your niche either, you're just not looking at the game objectively. That's fine, but you can't argue that the game was anything special because of it. MW4 was still full of monstrous imbalances and half-implemented mechanics. That you learned how to deal with it by playing better than the small pool of players that gravitated towards your particular style of play (which sounds suspect to me) doesn't change the underlying facts.

[Calistas]

Timex - enjoyed your reminiscing, by the way. I played a bit of MW4, but didn't get into it like mate did. The meta-multiplayer stuff sounds really fun!

Tank - wtf is suspect about how he played? I did similar in other games (Combat Mission, in particular, which had a grand campaign run by a dozen staff and lasted months). Strange backhanded insult.

[Timex]

I'll grant you the fact that if you came across a team that trickled in at you or sat motionless somewhere vulnerable, you will be able to beat them regardless of what they field. But if you ever came across a team that matched you in skill, then they would have the advantage of using the best weapon in the game, several times over, and you wouldn't.
Tank, you're missing a key point in my explanation of evaluating the different weapons.

The only reason that the ERLL is the "best" (notice the quotes) is because it is the most well-rounded weapon. It is effective in the widest variety of situations, meaning that regardless of what situation you find yourself in, it is a passable option.

However, that does not mean that it was the best option in every situation.

Do you see the distinction? Take a weapon like the ERPPC as an example.

The ERPPC was not as consistent as the ERLL. That is, at ranges of say 400-800m, the ERLL held an advantage because of its accuracy. If your team wasn't specifically trying to hold a particular range, then this is the range in which most fights took place (certainly the range at which the engagement started, since it was generally where BAP mechs would pick up active ECM mechs on radar).

But if you forced the fight to take place outside that sweet spot, then the ERPPC beat the ERLL.

Do you see what I'm saying there? At close ranges, the ERPPC actually beat the ERLL in terms of efficiency, and at those ranges the accuracy didn't matter since it was easy to hit a particular panel even with the PPC. At long ranges, the ERPPC was (much more) obviously a better weapon, since it was able to hit targets beyond 800m. It took some non-trival practice to be able to hit targets with it (especially moving targets) after the netcode changed, but that's what defines depth in a game, isn't it? The ability to practice at it, and actually get better?

Regardless, it's important to note the distinction between what you're saying (that the ERLL was the best weapon, period), and what I'm saying (that the ERLL was the best weapon overall, but which was beaten in various situations).

And again, this is part of what added to the depth of the game. The ERLL wasn't actually the best weapon, in all situations, regardless of what some players thought.


That you learned how to deal with it by playing better than the small pool of players that gravitated towards your particular style of play (which sounds suspect to me) doesn't change the underlying facts.
Well, those planetary leagues, at their peak, had a few thousand players in them. Also, even in open servers against the great unwashed masses, the style worked effectively. It was one of the things which made the game great... Effective tactics played a significant role in the game, more so than in most other FPS's. This stemmed largely from the fairly slow speed of various vehicles, such that the game ended up being less based on "twitch" reflexes. This isn't to say that it wasn't dependent upon gunnery or piloting skills, and a good pilot could definitely pull out a win in tough situations, but things like tactical movement over the map seemed to play a more significant role in that game than in most modern shooters.

Ultimately, you obviously didn't get the same kind of value out of that game as I did, and that's ok. I'm not trying to convince you that a game from over a decade ago was super awesome and you are wrong if you didn't like it. But at the same time, I can say definitively that claims that the game lacked depth are somewhat misplaced. There were certainly balance issues, although I would suggest that similar (if not worse) balance issues exist in virtually every other game that allows any customization of playstyle.

Also, bear in mind, that my suggestion that the ERLL isn't quite as ultimate as you believe comes from the opposite perspective of what one might expect. Often, when an overpowered weapon exists in a game, the folks who are arguing against its strength are those who exploit that strength. I'm arguing from the perspective of someone who consistently defeated that simple view of the game, by understanding that the ERLL was not "the best", but rather it was a weapon that had many strengths, as well as weaknesses, and that those strengths could be minimized and those weaknesses exploited.


The developers didn't go after your niche either, you're just not looking at the game objectively.
Well, we actually did have direct contact with the Mechwarrior devs, like Von, and helped them identify various hard-to-reproduce bugs in the game, so I got the impression that they kind of did like our little niche community. :)

Also, sorry for all that babble... Looking at that post, it seems silly to argue about weapon balance in a game that's over a decade old. We'll have to just agree to disagree.

[Flenser]

Mechwarrior 1-4 was more of a mech sim with a complex control scheme and gameplay elements beyond what is in shooters today. It looks like Hawken is more on the side of FPS than Sim which makes sense considering how many copies of FPSs are sold versus mech sims.



Hard to sell a lot of mech sims when there are none to buy. Been any since Chromehounds? Even Chromehounds was a half-assed effort IMO (but I still loved it).

[TurinTur]

New video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-USBsX6jCjA

[Sir Digby]

I had seen that one already, think it's been posted here too; god, I love those visual and the sound effects seem pretty good, can't wait for this. I hope they allow for some customization options a la Brink (decals on your mech, colour, etc).

Also, this one is new for me, HAWKEN story trailer from PAX:

http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/08/26/hawken-story-trailer?objectid=103025&show=HD

[Quitch]

Twice in fact :)

You can also skip the story trailer because it's every bit as rubbish as you'd expect. Just go watch the gameplay trailer again.

[Sir Digby]

Desert Map Gameplay trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVa7B1bLv8I&

*drool*

[serling]

This game is so God damn sexy.

[Shellfishguy]

Love the cockpit view and the sound changes between being outside and in the tunnels.

[serling]

Desert Map Gameplay trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVa7B1bLv8I&

*drool*

What is he doing at the 1:45 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iVa7B1bLv8I#t=105s) mark there? Is he cloaking from radar or something? Recharging energy?

Also, I'm absolutely loving the excessive amounts of smoke and dust in this game. Gorgeous.

[Sir Digby]

I think I remember them saying somewhere that you could temporarily disable your bot to repair yourself, think that was the case there.

[Quitch]

Yeah the, what I assume is the health bar, jumps up a short way when he does that.

[Aeon221]

Ok, I am really tempted to tape an I <3 Hawken between my legs and crotchshot the NYPL or Times Square.

Also this game looks so fucking good, I want it now more than ever.

[KiloOhm]

I think I remember them saying somewhere that you could temporarily disable your bot to repair yourself, think that was the case there.

Huh, my assumption based on his situation was he was shutting down to remove himself from the radar to set a trap for the guy chasing him.

edit: I went back and watched it and I think you're right. There's a gauge that looks like it's his health that went from 120 to 250ish after he powered down.

[Mark Asher]

Huh, my assumption based on his situation was he was shutting down to remove himself from the radar to set a trap for the guy chasing him.

How does shutting down remove your radar signature?

[Aeon221]

I think he's confusing radar (bouncin waves off ish) with infrared (looking at the heat of ish). But seeing as that thing was firing guns, I doubt shutting it down would change ir either.

[Jasper Phillips]

Maybe because you're not throwing out radar waves while you're powered down?

Similar to how turning off active sonar makes a submarine harder to detect.

[KiloOhm]

Actually, I was just refering to what people commonly call the little circle with the blips on it in FPS games. I wasn't trying to relate it to the real word - at all. In previous mechwarrior games I've played, I could have sworn that you could shut your mech down to go "invisible" the enemy.

[JoshV]

Actually, I was just refering to what people commonly call the little circle with the blips on it in FPS games. I wasn't trying to relate it to the real word - at all. In previous mechwarrior games I've played, I could have sworn that you could shut your mech down to go "invisible" the enemy.

Yup, that's correct, I remember that, or at least that was the excuse for the AI not being on the radar until they spawned or whatever =)

[Alan Au]

Apparently this is still in the works--they're now inviting people to sign up for the beta. Of course, no other news besides that, so really, who knows? Anyhow, signing up gives you a handful of invites to send around, first-come first-served.

EDIT: Whoops, no actual "invite" system--anyone can sign up, but there's no *actual* information there. For all I know, it's now a browser game or something.

[Angrycoder]

The other big news is that the game is going to Free To Play.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/06/no-hawking-hawken-its-free-to-play/

[Telefrog]

And I'm out. I wish them luck, but I haven't seen a F2P shooter yet that I could stand.

[Angrycoder]

And I'm out. I wish them luck, but I haven't seen a F2P shooter yet that I could stand.

Yeah, that Team Fortress 2 shit is terrible.

[Telefrog]

Yeah, that Team Fortress 2 shit is terrible.

Yeah, actually. I haven't liked it since it got wacky with the hats and a zillion alternate guns with crazy effects.

I think it's the best of the F2P shooters, but let's not forget that it was played for literally years as a regular product before it went F2P. Most other F2P shooters come out and their #1 priority is gimping the feeloader until he coughs up some cash.

[MrRyan]

Apparently this is still in the works--they're now inviting people to sign up for the beta. Of course, no other news besides that, so really, who knows? Anyhow, signing up gives you a handful of invites to send around, first-come first-served.

https://playhawken.com/?ref=wjd81zxm

That's actually a little bit misleading. Signing up doesn't give you a handful of invites, it just gives you the incentive to refer friends so that you can reserve your desired callsign before the beta starts.

[Alan Au]

So yeah, I'm not sold on f2p as an initial launch model, because the techniques used to extract money from a large group of free players are different than the techniques you use to entice paying customers up-front (as in a retail/subscription model).

Even so, I'm interested to see another mech game not weighed down by the "BattleTech/MechWarrior" licensing issues. Say, whatever happened to the MW:LL project anyway? (/me checks the MW:LL website...) They're apparently in open beta (http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/), which I guess means they're not dead yet.

[Timex]

MW:LL was kind of doomed from the start, due to their misguided attempt to implement a combined arms game.

Purely my opinion, of course, but I just do not see that kind of game working, ever. You just aren't gonna be able to balance it effectively. Even if you can, then you're gonna end up ruining one of the core aspects of battletech, which is OMG GIANT ROBOTS.

[scharmers]

MW:LL was kind of doomed from the start, due to their misguided attempt to implement a combined arms game.

Purely my opinion, of course, but I just do not see that kind of game working, ever. You just aren't gonna be able to balance it effectively. Even if you can, then you're gonna end up ruining one of the core aspects of battletech, which is OMG GIANT ROBOTS.

"You! Yes you! You get a fully-loaded MadCat!"

AWESOME!

"YOU! Have fun in your Elemental!"

FUCK

[Tankero]

MW:LL actually works pretty well because the vehicles/mechs are role-specific. Elementals are excellent close-range harassers due to their mobility. If you buy Elemental weapons, you're actually able to take on light mechs on your own, provided they try to fight you. However, at mid-range, a good LBX shot will kill you. Everything else is balanced across the rock-paper-scissors model, crossing vehicle-mech-aerospace lines. (Long range tanks and artillery mechs both exist. Scout hovercraft and ravens also play their role.) There are 'flavors of the month' of course, but that's true with every game.

[TurinTur]

MW:LL was kind of doomed from the start, due to their misguided attempt to implement a combined arms game.


I agree that MW:LL was doomed, but not because it was a combined arms game. Thats' way in the background of why it was doomed.

It was doomed because it was a multiplayer only mod of Crysis, a game whose multiplayer community was almost non existent. And also related to that, it needed a beefy machine to be played, being a Crysis mod. And being honest, a multiplayer "slow mech" sim game is not exactly the most mainstream idea ever. It doesn't exactly have the appeal of Battlefield.

[Timex]

All of those reasons probably did play a bigger role. I just tend to find issues with balance in combined arms games like Battlefield... It's always seemed like if you were willing to camp the vehicles like a douche, you could hop in one and totally outscore anyone who wasn't in one. Like back in BF:Vietnam... you could go around on foot and get a positive KD... or you could hop in a cobra and get 100 kills without dying.

[Alan Au]

I actually like the idea of a combined arms game, the idea being that mechs are expensive and unwieldy in certain situations where infantry/elementals/aircraft/ships would be better suited. I mean sure, mechs are great if you just want to flatten everything, but there's a reason why combined arms exists.

[spiffy]

I don't think the idea of combined arms makes any sense in the Battletech universe.. aircraft or even guided missiles really ought to be able to take out a mech from a zillion miles away were normal current day technology to have progressed into a future where they figured out interplanetary travel. Really, Battletech is WW1 with walking tanks, where air power is mostly a nuisance.

[TurinTur]

A new gameplay trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEeI0bQiJWE

[Giaddon]

Did we know the release date? 12/12/12?

[KiloOhm]

Everytime I see this game I can't help but think that it just looks like a FPS with a mech skin. Everything looks too fast to me. Mechs do not seem very durable (a sniper shot takes off 1/2 of a mech's "health". There doesn't appear to be location based damage (maybe "headshots" do more damage).

Just watching the video I find it hard to follow what's going on - I can't imagine controlling it. It would feel like CoD to me - which I suck at. :)

[BleedTheFreak]

I hope they work on the animation, it seemed a little herky-jerky in some spots, and yeah it's too fast paced for me. I'll stick with Mechwarrior Online, from the videos I've seen.

[Hump]

How can you have a Mech game with no lasers/energy based weapons? I loved Chromehounds but that was one of the issues with it that disappointed me.

[TurinTur]

Awesome teaser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co-j3Is8Y8o

[Hugin]

"You! Yes you! You get a fully-loaded MadCat!"

AWESOME!

"YOU! Have fun in your Elemental!"

FUCK

Oh god, dedicated Elemental players in MW:LL could fuck your shit up unbelievably. Especially if they got into a base and could play hide and seek with anyone attempting to capture it.

MW:LL's problem was that it took two hours to get the game installed, and I don't mean "Start the MMO launcher thing and go make a sandwich while it patches" two hours. It's a fiddly, complicated install, it takes a fairly serious gaming rig to run decently, the end result is a pretty slow, simmy game by the current market's standards, etc.

[Starlight]

Awesome teaser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co-j3Is8Y8o

That's absolutely facinating in terms of both visual style and tone. I do wonder to some extent why they're doing story shorts for a F2P, multi player game like that though.

[TurinTur]

I was this close to go to the bed already... but then I saw this Hawken video!
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2012-hawken/731311

[TurinTur]

14 min E3 video, showing the customization and the game itself. It really gives an idea of how the game works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJPrUZDLSeQ

[jeansberg]

The customization and tech tree look great, but the combat looks a bit too frantic for my tastes. Boost? Instant 180? Also, that map they were playing on looked very tight and close-quartersy.

I guess, just as with zombies, there are proponents of both slow ones and fast ones. :)

[TurinTur]

Yeah, the interesting thing about this game is the fast mechs. Hell, I would say the idea is at least more realistic than the slow as a turtle mechs. :P

[TurinTur]

After MW videos yesterday, here some Hawken videos:


Alleys: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/alleys-gameplay-hawken/732547
Andromeda Streets: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/andromeda-streets-hawken/732549
Team Deathmatch Sahara: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/team-deathmatch-hawken/732543
Andromeda Siege: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/pre-alpha-andromeda-hawken/732545

[TurinTur]

New trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSPZCYNNToI

[Starlight]

I'm actually not as impressed with that one as some of the (awesome) previous ones. I think it's the music, less moody and more action-y. And the story one was great, I think it's a shame there's not a full story attached.

Looking forward to playing it.

[pg]

That video looked terrible to me. I mean graphically great but all the shakiness was out of control.

[TurinTur]

Hawken will be the second game to support Oculus Rift
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game/posts

[TurinTur]

Hawken gameplay from PAX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqbTI3OhfFA&feature=plcp

[Jarrodhk]

Sadly, the more I see of Hawken, the less interested I am in playing it.

Just prefer my mech games to be slower paced generally.

Although I have had fun with the Armored Core series.

[pg]

The most interesting thing I've seen so far is when he flew up on top of the buildings at the end of that video. In all the other videos it is just plodding ground combat in tight areas where there is sparse tactical or spatial considerations.

[Nathan Phoenix]

Sadly, the more I see of Hawken, the less interested I am in playing it.

Just prefer my mech games to be slower paced generally.

Although I have had fun with the Armored Core series.

This. It just looks like quake with mech suits to me.

Even MWO seems to be too fast paced, honestly (from the videos!).

[TurinTur]

I will play and enjoy both of them! :P

[TurinTur]

Oh look, entering the alpha was easier than I believed!

go to the web. www.playhawken.com

Log in with your user (or register before if you don't have a user)
Click on redeem code, at the top right
Enter "AlphaDog". Done. The code have a limit of 10K uses, so hurry up.

[mono]

Oh look, entering the alpha was easier than I believed!

go to the web. www.playhawken.com

Log in with your user (or register before if you don't have a user)
Click on redeem code, at the top right
Enter "AlphaDog". Done. The code have a limit of 10K uses, so hurry up.

Thanks for the code, but at 9:30am EST something is borked w/ their backend. The code just produces a database exception.

[TurinTur]

Try it again, it also happened to me. At the second try (reload the page) it worked.

[marxeil]

Try it again, it also happened to me. At the second try (reload the page) it worked.

That worked for me too.

[pg]

Any impressions from playing it or is it under NDA? I was originally interested but the videos made me lose interest.

[TurinTur]

Any impressions from playing it or is it under NDA? I was originally interested but the videos made me lose interest.

Good graphics, good art, nice gameplay with good flow but nothing groundbreaking, the bad point (right now, in alpha) is all related to multiplayer aspect. Unfinished server browser, matchmaking that sometimes fails, disconnections in the middle of a game, and of course, lag.

[TurinTur]

The repair mechanic is interesting. You know how i most multiplayer action games people play just searching for enemies on the map and once A finds B, both players engage in a fight until one player arises victorious.
Here, because everyone have the repair function, it's not that straightforward. It's a viable, and desirable, tactic to try to disengage if you are losing, losing the enemy in the maze of streets and repair to reverse the odds of the fight.

[TurinTur]

EG gives out keys
http://www.eurogamer.net/giveaways.php?id=87173

[TurinTur]

And still more keys
http://www.mmobomb.com/giveaway/hawken-closed-beta-keys

[TurinTur]

They still need to improve performance. Or I need a new pc.

[HRose]

The real difference between this and Mechwarrior Online is that Mechwarrior didn't understand that the HUD also needs to move to render the mech movement well. Instead you have the 3D model that moves in the view and the HUD perfectly centered on screen. It sucks and makes a mech game identical to any other FPS.

[Jasper Phillips]

?! Yeah, that's the primary difference.

Now quit hogging the bong!

[ElGuapo]

Is the terrain destructible?

[Nathan Phoenix]

This. It just looks like quake with mech suits to me.

Even MWO seems to be too fast paced, honestly (from the videos!).

It's so cute to read my two-month-ago post. Now I see Hawken as totally superior to MWO. Both are very arcadey, but Hawken does arcadey better.

[Hump]

It's so cute to read my two-month-ago post. Now I see Hawken as totally superior to MWO. Both are very arcadey, but Hawken does arcadey better.

Im not sure how you can even compare the two. Hawken stretches the definition of a mecha game. Its certainly a lot of fun but it abbreviates nearly everything that makes a mech game stand on its own as a genre.

[pg]

Downloading the open beta as we speak. It was supposed to be out about 7? hours ago. I'll give some impressions once I can play a little (assuming it works).

[TurinTur]

Open beta is up, I played a pair of matches.

The good news is that the performance is much improved, at least on my computer. Lag is also less noticeable.
Matchmaking still needs improvement, it usually puts you on a game with barely 2 guys more, I prefer to wait a bit more and play in a more filled server, it doesn't autobalance for shit, and after the match, it doesn't seems capable of starting the next match and dumps you to the garage.

The game is decently fun, but I don't see any kind of depth, and the action also lacks a bit of 'punch'/viscerality, in other words I don't see myself playing this game for long.

The F2P is in full force here, of course. 2 kinds of "points", normal and paid, xp boosters, have to unlock mechs and equipment, have to use paid points for cosmetic body changes, have an unlock tree for each individual mech so you won't finish the grind anytime soon, and if my math isn't wrong, you will need to play around 35-40 matches to win enough to buy a single offensive item (like the HE mine or the MG turret).

[pg]

My initial reaction is very mixed. Some of it might be open beta pains but it needs to be fixed regardless. I tried to play 10? matches or so. I only got to play two. The rest failed for some reason and one crashed me. I played NA East servers where I typically get 40-60ms but I had more like 150ms (along with most other people too). The UI overall is weird. There are some obvious shortcuts at times but other times not (or I can't figure it out). There is however a LOT of info in the UI and that's great. Some of it can be hard to find at times however (like comparing weapons).

The two matches I played I came 3rd and 4th in FFA mode out of like 10-15 people. I like that it has a lot of modes (shame on you MWO!) but I eat up FFA and standard deathmatch modes. It seems unbalanced, more so than most F2P FPS I've played. Feedback on hits seems hard to judge other than watching their HP bar tick down. I died in a hit a couple times I think to some huge mech. It appears quite hard to get two kills with back to back fighting or vs multiple people but kill, repair, kill, repair, etc seems very strong. So if you can win a duel you should dominate overall. Not sure I'm a fan of unlimited repairs.

The main issue I'm having is my mouse feels utterly terrible. It feels like I'm dragging it through clay littered with rocks. It moves in chunky jumps. I messed with various settings but nothing seems to fix it. MWO which is another mech simulator feels gloriously smooth in comparison. Performance is good, better than MWO. Graphics are nice but they seem like they have some film grain or such applied over everything to remove sharpness.

Any bought stuff seems ridiculously expensive. I didn't see one thing I thought was fairly priced. The grind is varied but mostly seems quite bad, I leveled up to 6 quickly on my weapon?/mech? (one match, why even have level 1-5?) but to unlock anything with Hawken Points like another mech or equipment will take 30-60 matches I think. I can see people labeling it P2W pretty easily due to how bad the grind is.

[pg]

Anyone play this? I played a little wasn't impressed, let it sit a month and came back to it. Don't see any real changes or progress on any front. Unfortunately it seems worse than ever because everyone left playing it is much better and has upgraded different mechs. I was dying real fast and half the time couldn't even figure out from where until almost dead. Then since the mouse doesn't allow you to "twitch" and works badly I had a hell of a time looking/aiming.

I read the Hawken forums a little and watched a few match tournaments videos so I sort of know who the top players are. Let's just say I played on two different server FFA's tonight and they were about 50% top players. I managed to get like 5 kills in two matches. A month back the game was full of newbies in starter mechs so I could win matches or at least get a lot of kills. It wasn't great but it wasn't bad either. After my recent play I think the player base is tiny, tiny, tiny and I can't see this lasting long unless they make some drastic changes. Also mouse control is still fucked up and I can't figure out how to fix it. The mouse moving inconsistently and randomly can't be how it's supposed to work to simulate a mech. I'm still rooting for Hawken because FPS are my favorite game type but it's starting to look doomed at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hawken shut down in 6 months to a year unless they do some major changes.

[TurinTur]

My opinion is just "eh...". The gameplay is bland, it doesn't go above average. I have better games to play.

[Starlight]

Apparently they hadn't got skill ranking for matchmatching in before the last patch.

I'm quite liking it, but I'm turning out to be good at it. Which is always a factor for me.

(And you can disable film grain in the config file...do so)