The dawn of Qt3's post-Google AdSense age

[Tom Chick]

A week ago, I got an email from Google that linked me to a page apparently reported as being in violation of the terms of service after jabroni brought it up. So I edited my posts, as well as the posts that quoted me. Seemed pretty straightforward.

But I just now got another email telling me that ads have been disabled for the site.
We previously notified you about a policy violation on your site, and we asked that you make changes within 3 working days. After reviewing your site, we've found that it is still in violation, so we've disabled ad serving to your site.I can't imagine this is how it's actually supposed to work -- an informal discussion about not using adblockers in a funny gif thread? -- but who knows. My first inclination is to explain to whomever what happened. But from checking here (https://www.google.com/support/adsense/bin/answer.py?answer=48182&stc=aspe-2pp-en), it looks like there's not much recourse. Looking over this page (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/AdSense/label?lid=215fb2e4b67e2667&hl=en) of people talking about their disabled accounts isn't very encouraging. Besides, I can't even tell how to start some sort of appeals process. I had a hard enough time trying to actually contact them when we were among the folks getting ads with viruses.

So it looks like the model for Qt3 to stay in business is going to have to change. I'm reluctant to do the donations thing, although I like the idea of having no ads at all. But I'm personally resistant to the idea of a few people paying for everyone else's usage.

ZekeDMS mentioned something called Project Wonderful (http://www.projectwonderful.com/). Anyone have any experience with that? Or does anyone have any other ideas? The site isn't super expensive to run, but it was nice having a hands-off advertising system set up.

-Tom

[Lizard_King]

ZekeDMS mentioned something called Project Wonderful (http://www.projectwonderful.com/). Anyone have any experience with that? Or does anyone have any other ideas? The site isn't super expensive to run, but it was nice having a hands-off advertising system set up.
Here's a comment (http://techsling.com/2010/05/review-project-wonderful/) that might prove useful to you. It seems like these project wonderful guys might not have played enough Eurogames to figure out how to make their bidding advantageous to both sides for small sites.

[John Many Jars]

Fuck a duck. Did someone report Qt3 to Google?

[scotthal]

First, I'm still seeing ads from Google. There's one at the top of the page I'm typing on now.

Second, put a payment method in front of me and I will send money your way. This has been my home on the Internet for most of a decade. I have no problem chipping in to keep it running even if doing so means I subsidize others who don't value the community here as I do.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Fuck a duck. Did someone report Qt3 to Google?

No reporting necessary. Google checks for this sort of stuff constantly. My first blog got hit with the same sort of warnings and I doubt any of my, at the time, 20 readers would have cared enough to report.

Tom, it can be very hard to get Google to change this but I am sure it has been done. On the other hand, I know people who did nothing wrong and had their accounts suspended because they got very popular very fast so clearly they were suspicious.

No idea what your server costs are, but RPS uses subscriptions - people can sign up on Paypal or whatever to pay a couple of dollars a month. A monthly donation drive can be helpful - the one I just concluded was much more successful than I anticipated. If anyone starts pulling that entitlement bullshit, just refund their five bucks. There always free riders on the internet, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Troy

[Lizard_King]

A consideration I'll throw out for donations is that it might be wise to put it behind an anonymizing layer of some kind. I'd hate for people to start translating a sense of community into a sense of material ownership and entitlement.

[chequers]

Yes, I would pay $2/month, these forums are as valuable as RPS.

Ads are just an indirect donation, and an annoying one at that.

[Charles]

Allow us to pay to put titles on people's names and I will end up paying for your server costs all by myself.

[Cubit]

Allow us to pay to put titles on people's names and I will end up paying for your server costs all by myself.

Seconded! How does Something Awful do it again? $10 to put a custom title on someone else and $5 for that person to change it?

Who needs freelance writing when you can make money like that. :)

Seriously, you'd probably get $20 out of me tonight if I could make custom titles for people.

[Tom Chick]

Aw, that sucks about Project Wonderful. Google was so convenient and hands-off. And I'm sure they'll leave the ads there. But as I can tell by logging into my AdSense account, they won't pay for them any more. So no one look at the ads! Eyes down here!

I'm pretty sure the server costs for this month are covered, but it looks like December will be coming straight out of my pocket. If anyone wants to PayPal a contribution, I'm at tom w chick at the gmail and the com thing. Note that you have to include my middle initial "W" -- it's tomwchick -- or your PayPal donation goes to a nice fellow in Maine with the same name as me who sometimes gets my email and forwards it to me.

We'll figure something out, but keep the suggestions coming.

-Tom

[TimElhajj]

We should do donation drives like Ira Glass on This American Life. He somehow manages to flip the game on everyone's expectations of free internet services, making you feel like a cheap freeloader. But, somehow, I keep listening.

"If you listen to TAL every week, we know you're not paying. You're freeloading! If everyone would just give $5, we'd be good. Think, people. Just $5 dollars. That's all we're asking."

[kerzain]

I'm going to miss Flo.

[Jason McCullough]

Their might actually be enough of a QT3 community to support subscriptions. I'd treat it as a last resort though.

I so will miss the ludicrous google ads on threads.

[Raife]

Auto-replace "adblockers" with "sun-catchers" and "ads" or "advertisements" with "sunbeams".

[Genji]

I'm game for supporting via donations or a small monthly subscription fee. I won't miss Flo though, she scares me with her clown like face. I hate clowns.

[Cubit]

Subscriptions are so boring though. Tom needs to get creative. He could literally make a little profit off of Qt3.

[snowcrash22]

$5 to start an EE thread with (that's interesting) in the title.

[Cosmic Hippo]

I am pretty surprised there is no recourse for you to appeal this with Google. I mean, you removed the content in question but they still think you didn't. That is pretty clear-cut. I get that it's hard to even get a human being to pay attention but is Adsense really THAT fragile? And does NOBODY here work for Google?

I bet custom titles would work though!

[chequers]

If you're going to start using Paypal make sure you jump through all the hoops they let you jump through. I noticed your account isn't even verified, which means if you start getting lots of donations they shut it down and steal your money like with Notch.

[Charles]

Yeah paypal is just as dangerous.

Anyway, it would take some forum coding but it might be worth it to do some basic features for a sub. Like, $1 a month to have a text signature or something.

Or actually, you could just share server costs, and do something awesome like let me pay for a month or two of server time and then let me troll with impunity.

Ahhh to dream.

(Seriously though, if I had something to advertise I'd pay server costs just to put the info up here)

[Bluto]

Tom, I can understand why you're hesitant about donations, but people want to help. This place is important to people, and there's enough here to spread the costs so much it's not a burden on anyone.


p.s. F Google and their virus-filled ads anyway.

[kerzain]

Once the ads are gone we can use that space to cycle through and display cropped pictures from the dating and Gallery of Awesome People threads, this way we can look each other in the eyes when we're having a flame war -- and perhaps all that rage will turn to love.

[olaf]

What kind of bandwidth does this site use in a month?

[chequers]

Please do not suggest the forum gets hosted on a $10/mo dreamhost account.

[Ben Sones]

A consideration I'll throw out for donations is that it might be wise to put it behind an anonymizing layer of some kind. I'd hate for people to start translating a sense of community into a sense of material ownership and entitlement.

I'm not sure that's a given. Like I said in the gif thread, BGG seems to do fine with donations, and they even give out little badges and Geek Gold for them, and I don't think it's hurt the sense of community there. If you have a place with a strong sense of community, I think donations can work, and I think giving something (even stupid little things like a special badge or tag on their profile) can encourage people to give. I know Tom will never do avatars, but perhaps donors could get a special text field on their profile, or the ability to edit Bill D's posts, or something like that.

Either way, I would definitely pay some money to keep Qt3 going, and I'll bet a lot of other people would, too. Does it matter to me that some people wouldn't, and that I (and other donors) would basically be subsidizing their usage? Not at all.

[Raife]

I actually like the idea of buying custom for titles for other people for $10 like SA. Heck, I'd entertain myself by coming up with new ones for Timmy and Rimbo fairly regularly.

[Nixxter]

I'd gladly donate or subscribe and predict you might be overwhelmed by the support and response you'd get Tom.

I know you think a lot about whether this is still your living room or not as changes have come over the years, but I have a feeling your approval ratings and support are sky high and have never wavered.

[krayzkrok]

Either way, I would definitely pay some money to keep Qt3 going, and I'll bet a lot of other people would, too. Does it matter to me that some people wouldn't, and that I (and other donors) would basically be subsidizing their usage? Not at all.

My feelings exactly. In fact the only thing putting me off sending $5 to tomwchick right now is having to set up a damn PayPal account, but I'll look into it now that I've stopped receiving about a dozen PayPal scam emails on a daily basis.

[DennyA]

Doesn't Yahoo have a competitive program?

[Lizard_King]

I'm not sure that's a given. Like I said in the gif thread, BGG seems to do fine with donations, and they even give out little badges and Geek Gold for them, and I don't think it's hurt the sense of community there. If you have a place with a strong sense of community, I think donations can work, and I think giving something (even stupid little things like a special badge or tag on their profile) can encourage people to give. I know Tom will never do avatars, but perhaps donors could get a special text field on their profile, or the ability to edit Bill D's posts, or something like that.
I like BGG for what it is. I don't want Qt3 to be anything like it, and the donor thing is just one part of it.


Either way, I would definitely pay some money to keep Qt3 going, and I'll bet a lot of other people would, too. Does it matter to me that some people wouldn't, and that I (and other donors) would basically be subsidizing their usage? Not at all.
It would make no difference to most of us, I think, and if presented correctly would have no difficulty generating revenue. I would point to Dan Ariely's (admittedly still at the point of being relatively untested) ideas on social vs market relationships (http://books.google.com/books?id=ro7X8HRyuEIC&lpg=PA85&ots=99r4BqW0lf&dq=dan%20ariely%20daycare&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false): when you blur the line from the former to the latter, you have to be very careful because it's difficult to backpedal once you've gone that route. BGG has very complicated web around that line, and I'm not sure their answer is very universally applicable.

[TimElhajj]

You should sell the banner ad space to posters. We could use it to humiliate one another! I know I'd pay for a banner that said BillD was a homo wanker. We could use that picture of him and Quat holding hands in the chapel.

[Kalle]

Tim Elhajj, it's hard to penis the penis in that penis penis Tim is penising.

[kerzain]

I think we need to take a page from Jimmy Wales' book, utilize creepy banner ads to generate revenue.

http://i56.tinypic.com/25quno5.jpg

We need some pictures with soulless, glaring eyes of judgment -- get on that Tom.

[Rod Humble]

Aw, that sucks about Project Wonderful. Google was so convenient and hands-off. And I'm sure they'll leave the ads there. But as I can tell by logging into my AdSense account, they won't pay for them any more. So no one look at the ads! Eyes down here!

I'm pretty sure the server costs for this month are covered, but it looks like December will be coming straight out of my pocket. If anyone wants to PayPal a contribution, I'm at tom w chick at the gmail and the com thing. Note that you have to include my middle initial "W" -- it's tomwchick -- or your PayPal donation goes to a nice fellow in Maine with the same name as me who sometimes gets my email and forwards it to me.

We'll figure something out, but keep the suggestions coming.

-Tom

I cannot decipher the da vinci code that is hiding your email described here and as its money we are sending I think some clarity would help 8)

Tom could you PM me your email and please for the love of god get some kind of paypal link where we can click?

Or even better just post a link here in the thread :) Gmail is pretty good at blocking spam so I wouldnt sweat it too much.

Yeah and as for making money out of the site

1.) Pay to join and post. $5 per year. This is the model http://theminiaturespage.com/ uses and I think it works out well.

2.) Fund raiser every year. Pretty simple, works for most schools. Just set a a target number and put a sticky post at the top of every sub forum till it is met or the site shuts down.

3.) Qt3 shirts and mugs. Cheap and pretty easy to do.

4.) If it gets REALLY dire then you could go nuclear, the brunt of the costs are probably from bandwidth costs from non members....you could just take it private....

[chequers]

Tom, you don't need to obfustucate your email address to stop spambots harvesting it. The last web-crawling email harvester shut down in '98 :)

[Ben Sones]

My feelings exactly. In fact the only thing putting me off sending $5 to tomwchick right now is having to set up a damn PayPal account, but I'll look into it now that I've stopped receiving about a dozen PayPal scam emails on a daily basis.

Obviously, we would expect you to render payment in crocodiles.

[TimElhajj]

Tim Elhajj, it's hard to penis the penis in that penis penis Tim is penising.

Put me down for a month of Kalle is a homo wanker. Make it an interstitial with the BillD ad--you have to watch the one, before you get the other!

Man, Tom, you're going to make a fortune.

[TimElhajj]

Tom, you don't need to obfustucate your email address to stop spambots harvesting it. The last web-crawling email harvester shut down in '98 :)

Really? Is that true? Jesus, I feel so... outdated.

[TimElhajj]

I think we need to take a page from Jimmy Wales' book, utilize creepy banner ads to generate revenue.

http://i56.tinypic.com/25quno5.jpg

We need some pictures with soulless, glaring eyes of judgment -- get on that Tom.

Let's get Ira Glass to do an ad on the podcasts asking for donations!

[Talisker]

What's the monthly cost for the server, anyhow?

[wumpus]

A week ago, I got an email from Google that linked me to this page, which was apparently reported as being in violation of the terms of service after jabroni brought it up. So I edited my posts, as well as the posts that quoted me. Seemed pretty straightforward.

I can ask about this on webmasters, but I need to know the exact content of the email that you got from Google. What did it say -- which PART of the terms of service were you in violation of?

[hong]

So it looks like the model for Qt3 to stay in business is going to have to change. I'm reluctant to do the donations thing, although I like the idea of having no ads at all. But I'm personally resistant to the idea of a few people paying for everyone else's usage.


What this site clearly needs is some decent Posting Rights Management tools.

[rezaf]

I cannot decipher the da vinci code that is hiding your email described here and as its money we are sending I think some clarity would help 8)

This is what dumbing down games for consoles has brought upon us!
Tom clearly stated the actual address is tomwchick, and the rest of the gmail address should be very easy to figure out.


I can ask about this on webmasters, but I need to know the exact content of the email that you got from Google. What did it say -- which PART of the terms of service were you in violation of?

Same phenomenon.
Tom quoted (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2466011&postcount=730) the full text in a link you could find if you followed his first link.
_____
rezaf

[Wendelius]

Tom,

Sorry to hear about Google being difficult.

If subscriptions turn out to be the solution, I'd happy donate a set amount every month too. If it comes to that, would you mind giving us a rough idea of what your monthly costs are? Just so we can figure out how many $2 (for example) subscriptions or donations would be needed to keep the forum running in the foreseeable future?

Wendelius

[DrCrypt]

Tom, just do quarterly fundraisers, then use anything that spills over the actual cost of hosting to do contests, lotteries or podcast giveaways. This isn't really worth hang-wringing about.

[serling]

I'm a little surprised there isn't some sort of fee already. I understand you want to run the site with as few strings attached as possible, but that seems like a hard thing to pull off these days. Especially with a place as popular as qt3.

Anyway, I'll pay whatever the cost. Be it custom titles, avatars, monthly fees or occasional fundraisers.

[Juste]

Tom, please verify your Paypal account like Checkers stated. I'm guessing you have a nice healthy sum in there already and we do not want Paypal blocking your account.

Wasn't that the same thing that happened to the Minecraft developer btw?

[serling]

Wasn't that the same thing that happened to the Minecraft developer btw?

Not to mention somethingawful and their fund-raiser for Katrina. (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/paypal-fiasco-summary.php)

Worth a quick read.

[Sten Friberg]

First, I'm still seeing ads from Google. There's one at the top of the page I'm typing on now.

Second, put a payment method in front of me and I will send money your way. This has been my home on the Internet for most of a decade. I have no problem chipping in to keep it running even if doing so means I subsidize others who don't value the community here as I do.

+1

345

[Chris Nahr]

A week ago, I got an email from Google that linked me to this page (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=58334&page=24), which was apparently reported as being in violation of the terms of service after jabroni brought it up. So I edited my posts, as well as the posts that quoted me. Seemed pretty straightforward.

Just talking about ad-blocking is a violation of Google advertising terms? What kind of evil empire crap is that? Web ads are paid per view or click, so if people block ads Google simply would pay less. No money out of their pocket, so why would they even care? That's a problem for their customers, not for them. Bah.

Anyway, I'm happy to pay for a subscription or the like. What are the hosting costs per month? Perhaps moving to a forum hosting service such as www.freeforums.org would be advantageous? Their unlimited premium account is currently $70 per year. (There might be better choices -- I don't have any experience with them.)

[candide]

How about selling the ad/banner space to (indie) game developers? This place has enough traffic to make that interesting I think.

[Juste]

Just talking about ad-blocking is a violation of Google advertising terms? What kind of evil empire crap is that? Web ads are paid per view or click, so if people block ads Google simply would pay less. No money out of their pocket, so why would they even care? That's a problem for their customers, not for them. Bah.

From what I could gather, it's not talking about blocking, it's Tom talking about clicking banners to support the site that was the problem. Which is a violation of Googles TOS. Which in this specific case feels really unfair, as Tom is hardly pushing us to click the ads, he just mentioned it in passing in another discussion.

[mkozlows]

Just talking about ad-blocking is a violation of Google advertising terms? What kind of evil empire crap is that? Web ads are paid per view or click, so if people block ads Google simply would pay less.

The "please click on the ads!" (which Tom edited out) is against the terms, because advertisers understandably don't like it if they're getting -- and therefore paying for -- a bunch of nonsense clicks from people who aren't actually interested in their product.

[Chris Nahr]

Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense.

[strategy]

The "please click on the ads!" (which Tom edited out) is against the terms, because advertisers understandably don't like it if they're getting -- and therefore paying for -- a bunch of nonsense clicks from people who aren't actually interested in their product.

And Google - somewhat understandably considering the millions of websites they have on the program (many fraudulent) - have absolutely no give in them regarding this sort of stuff. It's always hard to get an actual person to look at things from their end, and given that this is a pretty clear case, I wouldn't hold out hope.

[Jamie Madigan]

That sucks about Google. They did the same thing to me on my blog a few months ago. Some automated scan picked up some words they didn't like (also a "click on the ads!" joke), so they shut down my account. I appealed, which was denied. Also probably automatically. And they automatically kept the $100 or so that was in my Adsense account at the time.

[Charles]

I would love to see this site turn completely to a pay membership site. In fact, I would make it retroactive -- starting from now, you have to pay $1 for the ability to post. A flag gets set on your account, the end.

It would probably do wonders for the SNR in here.

[hong]

We could go the microtransaction route. 1c per post.

[Lum]

Some notes:

- buysellads.com lets you sell ad space at a flat rate. I make enough off it to pay for my blog's webhosting, and considerably more than Google Ads was paying (I make about $50 a month off BSA, and made about $5 a month off Google Ads)

- A token charge to get your account validated would both bring in revenue *and* eliminate spammers forever.

[Juste]

We could go the microtransaction route. 1c per post.

Let's also make this retroactive!

[sinnick]

While I would happily donate or pay a monthly fee, I think it is equally important for Tom to find a solution that he is comfortable with. For example, I can totally understand not wanting to deal with the hassle of reprogramming the site to enable new features or dealing with having to constantly solicit the community for money. It would make me feel crappy if I were him, even if everyone were totally happy to do it. And I wouldn't want the prospect of having to do that regularly to cause Tom to burn out on running the site. Same goes for letting indie developers put ads here. I'm almost sure Tom would see that as a conflict of interests.

I think the best idea is what Denny suggested: go with a copycat ad service. Maybe do a one-time donation to get through the holidays during which I imagine traffic goes up, as we putzes put the bargain thread on auto-refresh, but after that switch over to the Yahoo service. Hopefully it is equally hands off.

http://advertising.yahoo.com

There's also http://www.adbrite.com

[Alstein]

Why not just take the site down, make a new site (Quarter to Four?), and put Google Ads on that?

If it comes to it. I won't do Paypal, but I'll do other stuff. That said, I expect this place to start getting more traffic in the future .

The problem is, what if a donator is a troll? You ban a "paying customer"? That's what I'm afraid of, and I've seen it in other forums. You'd be opening yourself up to suspicion at least.

[Rimbo]

Did Tom ever get his Paypal verified?

Sent from my MB200 using Tapatalk

[Austin Arlitt]

The problem is, what if a donator is a troll? You ban a "paying customer"? That's what I'm afraid of, and I've seen it in other forums. You'd be opening yourself up to suspicion at least.

I wouldn't have any problem with donating to the server fund & then getting banned for the same reasons as if I had not contributed. Granted, I probably wouldn't be happy about being banned either way.

[strategy]

Why not just take the site down, make a new site (Quarter to Four?), and put Google Ads on that?


Not recommendable. Google bans the account, not the website.

I'll echo sinnick and denny; use a competing ad service. There are plenty, and you might even do better off some of them than from Google.

If the revenue from that is not sufficient for the site, ask for donations every once in a while. It is not terribly difficult to set up, and people do not need a paypal account to donate through paypal.

But do get the account verified, first.

[Alstein]

Then why not just make a new account?

That said, ads aren't a long-term solution. Ad blockers will be commonplace in a year or two.

[Omniscia]

How much would Amazon referral links net? Or is that too much commercialization?

[Sidd_Budd]

I don't know all these fancy shmancy ways to make and transfer money over the interwebs (I barter for items using conch shells as currency), but I'd be happy to donate once a year. I'd prefer to have no badges or icons that distinguish doners from non-doners, but you'd probably collect more money if you did have icons.

Hopefully things get resolved soon and with as few headaches as possible.

[strategy]

Then why not just make a new account?

Consider how happy forum moderators are when people try to circumvent a banning by starting a new account. Now consider what happens when that forum moderator is a service as far-reaching as Google.

You really don't want to go there.

[Creole Ned]

I've donated to the site before and would do so again. I lean more toward not offering anything 'extra' for those who donate but don't feel strongly about it.

[Jamie Madigan]

Then why not just make a new account?

Accounts are tied to individuals, with addresses and other verifying information involved because payments are being made.

[dtolman]

I have the perfect 3 tier solution to raise money:

Tier 1, full access to QT3. Costs $$$$$
Tier 2, can do everything but access the Bananas & Nuts thread. Costs $$$
Tier 3, same as Tier 2, but Gently Touched tags are hidden as well. Cost? FREE!

[Jamie Madigan]

How much for just the Bargain Thread?

[Omniscia]

I don't know all these fancy shmancy ways to make and transfer money over the interwebs (I barter for items using conch shells as currency), but I'd be happy to donate once a year. I'd prefer to have no badges or icons that distinguish doners from non-doners, but you'd probably collect more money if you did have icons.

Hopefully things get resolved soon and with as few headaches as possible.

Doners:

http://www.thekebabshop.com/Doner%20Layout-Lamb-Small.gif

Non-doners:

Everything else.

[Mightynute]

Mmm, now I want a kebab.

[fuzzyslug]

I'd be down for a yearly donation drive. I quite like the Gamers With Jobs model, which adds a little raffle and adornments, which act as markers of tenure and loyalty.

I hate the idea of a subscription model. All of sudden people think they own the place because they are paying for it. It's a subtle distinction but an important one.

[Telefrog]

Whatever you decide to do, Tom. I'll chip in. I love this site.

[Delta]

I'm in for providing pocket money to the site.

[Rod Humble]

This is what dumbing down games for consoles has brought upon us!
Tom clearly stated the actual address is tomwchick, and the rest of the gmail address should be very easy to figure out.
_____
rezaf

Easy for you kids with your Professor Layton addled brains. I remember....rotary phones...vcrs....I remember....more wine...zzzzz

[notatiger]

I will buy the site a game from its Steam wishlist.

[Raife]

Offer to sell temporary bans for $100 each.

[Quaro]

It would be more work, but you could probably make more than you made with the Google ads if you negotiated the deals yourself. Also you could get good, actual relevant ads, like for actual games. I'd love to see some interesting indy games promoted there, I think it would be a good use of their ad budgets too.

[Mrenda]

How much would Amazon referral links net? Or is that too much commercialization?

This was what I first thought of when I saw the thread. Instead of the banner ads at the top could you put an image that links to an affiliate/referral account for Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk. It's not direct income, but depending on the costs of the site and how much stuff Tom buys from Amazon it would compensate him in some way.

I don't think it's any way more commericalised than having ads. And I'd think of it as a lot less intrusive (for want of a better word) than asking for donations.

I also like the paying for custom tags idea. Although it could be a bitch to moderate. With the rich abusing the poor, and that's just too much like the god damn real world for me. (I jest.) Maybe if you let everyone pick their own custom title for free at first, so no-one feels left out or shamed into donating.


*This post was brought to you by the Server Costs Are Too Damn High Party*

[Kalle]

Moderating custom titles misses the point of buying other people custom titles.

[Quaro]

Amazon referral is a good idea. If you are going to buy stuff from there anyway, it's like a 'free' donation.

[Kareem]

Charge a Qt3-VAT tax on the Secret Santa presents!

[Mrenda]

Moderating custom titles misses the point of buying other people custom titles.

There are certain things that Tom won't tolerate on the forum, why should they be tolerated on custom titles. And that's part of the problem with it. When it's done to aggravate someone you get on with it probably won't be a problem. When it's done to aggrevate a flame war between two people who hate each other it's going to be a huge problem.

[Cobra]

It's very simple Tom:

1. Verify PayPal account
2. Wait for donations
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!

Seriously, verify it now so I can donate.

[Dean]

I would pay money for Tom to say something on the podcast. If Tom doesn't want a whole section of "secret messages" on the podcast, then we could make a bi-weekly poll, and each vote costs $1.

C'mon, who wouldn't throw in a buck or twenty to hear Tom say, "Rimbo is a doodiehead" on one of the podcasts? I bet Rimbo would even chip in.

I would also pay monthly or annually just to have my posting privileges here.

[rezaf]

Something like the Million Dollar Homepage (http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/) would be cool.

Make a large empty picture (2000x2000px?) a random part of which (728x90px or something) is displayed on top every time you load up a Qt3 page.
The picture is wiped clean every January the 1st.
Everybody can buy some "advertising space" on that page, 16x16px min, 128x128px max or something.
Everyone can only buy one chunk/year, and costs escalate, so 32x32 costs more than 4 times 16x16.
Every ad comes with a weblink.
Calculate your yearly cost and price the chunks accordingly.

Like the original Million Dollar Homepage (the actual one up now I linked to above has been taken over by spammers, appearently) it could be cool to see what people chose to do with their pixels.

Also, you'd only have to "manage" things once a year, having a monthly funding call or whatever could be quite annoying, I imagine.
_____
rezaf

[cliffski]

As an indie dev, I advertise lots of places, including occasionally here, when I can rarely afford to outbid the 'CHECK YOUR CREDIT SCORE!!!!!111" ads.
I use google, and also project wonderful, and also game-advertising online, now and then.
The best ROI is google, because it's the cleverest.
The nice thing about google, is I can bid for ads for my strategy game, and then the ad will likely get shown here in conversations about Elemental, or Civ IV, which presumably are being read by people who are likely to enjoy my game.
People who are here purely to talk console gaming, or troll politics threads probably arent my audience, but then google won't show them my ads.

On the flipside, Project wonderful would let me bid X$ for showing my ad on the whole site for 1 day, which isn't as appealing.

However, working directly with advertisers (like me!) cuts out the middle man, and their chunk, so direct-sales FTW.

Lastly, I don't get the outcry over people clicking on ads. It's not half as effective as people think. I let google auto-manage my bidding on a cost-per-conversion basis. I don't give a fuck if the click-through rate on QT3 is 100%, if none of thsoe clickers buy the game. Google handle this. I bid (automatically) higher on some sites with very low CTR, because those who do click, do buy.
This isn't 1990, people aren't treating all clicks equally. What matters is the purchasing intention of the person clicking, not how click-happy they are.

Anyway, happy to spend some money here on some GSB ads, although my marketing spend is now on a downward trend till the next game...
I do occasionally spend a whole bunch of indies money collectively though, for stuff like this:
www.showmethegames.com (http://www.showmethegames.com)
So I can still supply advertisers even if it's not just for my stuff.

[Mike Pugliese]

Tom, if you don't want to go with a basic donation system, vBulletin's subscription stuff is pretty versatile. It allows the board to automatically handle most of the PayPal integration and basic features (like private boards and user titles).

With a few downloadable mods, you can even extend that functionality. For example, you can permit subscribers to change their personal board style (which I've always felt QT3 needed). I operate a few boards that use this stuff, and everything short of code hacks is super easy to set up in the admin control panel.

[TimElhajj]

Screw Google. What about Microsoft? Is there no competetive program with Microsoft you could sign up for?

[DennyA]

But if Tom sells ads directly to game publishers, what happens next time he hates one of their games? Or if he suddenly has a breakthrough and discovers "fun" in a game that happens to advertise? A game journalist can't really sell his own ads.

Tim, MS doesn't seem to have a competitive program. Should we pitch one to Steve? :)

[karnisov]

i'd be fine with a reasonable membership. this is one of the few forums i would support with money.

[Quaro]

Selling ads, memberships, they'd both probably work but introduce some extra overhead in Tom's life.

I think the best solution is: paypal link, amazon referral link. Completely passive. If those don't bring in enough to cover hosting then take another look later.

[Charles]

You know, another solution might be merch.

[chet]

Ugh, sorry to hear Tom.

I didn't see it otherwise I would have told you - delete the page. Move the thread so it is different, edit it and delete the page. But really, delete the content. I never got a warning on content that was worth keeping (most came from 4 year old pages )

We had affiliates link way up when... unless your site is based around that, you aren't going to make money.

Most other ad companies suck. Most are still used to arbitrage for adsense.

adBrite is pud's from fuckedcompany's old company, I hated their service because i had to constantly monitor it to remove adware and worse ads. It can work, okay... for me 1/10 of adsense but tough.

Yahoo is worse. Ads will not be relevant, payout small. Google works for both sides because of the large numbers. Once those fall off on either side, it is death.

I never tried buysellads.com. If it worked for lum, give them a shot. Just search on their name for a bit - i have probably lost more money to ad companies that I have made while searching for a valueclick/google alternative. I consider every ad company nothing but a ponzi scheme in disguise.

Selling your own ads is a ton of work, I never found a service that worked well and this was the holy grail for phpadsnew, which of course finally delivered when they become a paid service - I hate them with all my heart, way to fuck over the idea of open source and community support. Err I hadn't thought of them in a while.

For adserving, google also offers a service, oddly free of what will get you banned from adsense. That said, I have never been able to decipher how to set it up, they even volunteered to have someone call me and walk me through it. Not really my focus anymore so I passed, but if you go with ads, you need to be able to serve them somehow.

It will be interesting to see how subscriptions really do in a few years, so many sites doing it now - are you really going to have a $100 a month budget for browsing the web? I am all for it, just don't think it is a practical long term solution.

The trend seems to be going back to a grrr UGO model, fall under someone else's blanket of advertising and let them worry about it. Ask those nifty kids at RPS how that's working out for them. I heard Kieron could retire on the money they made in the first month...

[chet]

Screw Google. What about Microsoft? Is there no competetive program with Microsoft you could sign up for?

I still have my .02 check from their short lived program. They sent it to me when it closed down.

[stusser]

Forum traffic isn't very valuable. RPS's success, such as it is, is because they have frequently updated high quality frontpage content.

I don't see any reason why forum traffic alone wouldn't cover hosting costs for Qt3, which should really be quite limited, but it's tough as nails to actually make real money off forums.

[Cubit]

but it's tough as nails to actually make real money off forums.

Eh, with a community this size and this loyal, I'm not so sure. You could make real money charging for custom titles and text signatures. Tom would never go for it though.

[Ender]

My recommendation:
Don't go the donation route. Capitalism can save you from this. You provide a very valuable service to a lot of people. Charge for that service, you just have to figure out the right pricing strategy.

Accept it, price it and move forward. If you want it to be an exclusive place where only the most die hard post then make the fee 30 dollars a year. If you want to still cultivate a community that attracts new blood but still generates income then do the tiered approach of cheap to post, free to view. 10-15 dollars a year to post might be enough.

I have no idea what your traffic looks like, but the question of pricing is critical. It would be an interesting experiment for an economist to look at the elasticity of demand for this site, but my recommendation would be start low and move higher to ensure you don't damage your community (which is really your competitive advantage).

There you just got free consulting out of me! I'm sure there are some other MBAs (otherwise known as holders of worthless expensive degrees) that can chime in.

[Charles]

Merch!

Seriously, we have some people around here who are good with a pencil, I'm sure. Gather a few people to volunteer to work on designs for tshirts, mugs, xbox skins, whatever. There are plenty of services out there that will let you pump a design directly in to a tshirt in a short amount of time. A lot of sites do it.

I'd buy a qt3 shirt, why not? You can also do fun stuff like put forum memes on a tshirt (I mean, and sorry to use this as an example, but who *wouldn't* want to wear an "I love baby tapir" tshirt? "I Posted in Bananas and Nuts and Survived" "Tell me something (that is interesting)"

Plenty of raw material in the forum to make stickers/shirts/mugs. Why not use it that way? Then you don't have to feel like you are asking for donations, and the forum members get something out of it too.

[Clanan]

Just want to chime in as a new member with a low post count. In the past few months I've enjoyed being a part of this board immensely and would definitely be happy to support it in some monetary fashion. Subscription, whatever.

Paying for something I enjoy isn't annoying - it's gratifying.

[SpoofyChop]

Tom...

Just another voice to say I would happily do a subscription and I'm with Charles that I do think it would help the S/N.

[Delta]

I think we need a poll.

[Nathan Phoenix]

I would be happy to donate and don't mind that I'm supporting non donating users, as long as you never get rid of the ability for me to put people on my ignore list. :)

[willk0]

I would also like to subscribe to your newsletter, Mr. Chick.

Donations, merch, subscription fee, whatever. It's a pittance to keep a place we love on the internet going, right?

[AaronSofaer]

Merch sounds like a fine idea. Subscriptions, not so much.

Paying to give people temporary custom forum titles would be hilarious, but probably a bad idea.

[chet]

Merch tends to spike at the start and then fall off. It isn't a sustainable way to run the site... It also needs to go through a place like cafepress - which takes most of the money or there needs to be risk in the form of stock, neither are a great alternatives.

[Delta]

Personally, I wouldn't go with merch.

[Case]

So exactly how much bandwidth are we talking, and what's the cost? If we had ballpark numbers, we could make more rational proposals as to how Tom might pay for it.

[TimElhajj]

http://siteanalytics.compete.com/quartertothree.com/

From a recent thread. Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but it gives you a sense of how many pageviews, which seem to have doubled in the past year.

[Case]

http://siteanalytics.compete.com/quartertothree.com/

From a recent thread. Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but it gives you a sense of how many pageviews, which seem to have doubled in the past year.

I see unique visitors, but can't get the page view numbers without using the "Pro" version...

[TimElhajj]

My bad. I meant unique visitors -- so I'm assuming page views (and thus bandwidth) would be much higher figure. This might not be that helpful of a metric. But at least it explains why the numbers for my blog are so "low"!

[JM]

I'm happy go with whatever alternative is decided on. I run an ad-blocker and I hate being made to feel like a leeching tool but I refuse to deal with the security implications, so moving away from ads would be great for me.

[WarrenM]

Personally, I wouldn't go with merch.
Same. I think Chet is spot on. People would buy a few things the first month and then it would go dead. It's not really a recurring revenue model.

[TimElhajj]

How many pithy one liner T-shirts can one man own?

[Raife]

As many as it takes.

[TimElhajj]

As many as it takes.

Put it on a mug goatse.cx and I'll buy it.

[TimElhajj]

Tim, MS doesn't seem to have a competitive program. Should we pitch one to Steve? :)

Definitely! We can use Tom and Quartertothree as one of our customer satisfaction scenarios.

[Drastic]

What I'm envisioning is a "I am the most respected thinker in this t-shirt, by far."

[mono]

Voluntary subscriptions seem fine to me. I don't really care if subscribers get some sort of merit badge next to their name. Tom isn't gonna give anyone special treatment because they've donated, but it'll give the hand-wringers more fodder for Bananas and Nuts. Seems like a win-win.

[jabroni]

Ugh, I am really sorry, Tom, if my post is what lead to you getting flagged. It was absolutely not my intention. I just remembered reading an article where a guy got denied his money for saying "click the links" or something (and then took google to small claims and won and then bragged about it on the Internet and then google appealed and never had to pay him). Anyway it was just an idle comment and I certainly didn't imagine it would result in Google flagging your account (if that is in fact how it happened) or really anything more than you no longer asking for clicks.

I don't post a lot but I like reading the forum and listening to the podcasts. The last thing I would want is to make it harder for you to host it.

You seem pretty convinced that this is my fault, and I am sorry if I am partly to blame. I guess at least you've gone from saying I reported you to just implying it.

[Coca Cola Zero]

Same. I think Chet is spot on. People would buy a few things the first month and then it would go dead. It's not really a recurring revenue model.

Me three.

I'm not against the idea of Qt3 merchandise, I might actually buy some, but it is not sustainable. Donations aren't either, really, unless you're willing to do PBS style donation drives or Wikipedia style "personal pleas" where you keep reminding people to donate... otherwise you'll get a bunch of donations in month one and then nothing after, with everyone who donated feeling more entitled than they did previously.

Bite the bullet and make it a reasonablly priced subscription service. You'll lose some of the current posters, but fuck 'em.

However... one thing you might want to consider up front is a gifting service. Obviously not all Qt3 posters are in the same financial boat and there are some posters who others might be willing to cover the subscription costs for because they feel they add at least that much value to the site per year.

[Cubit]

One positive consequence of making a mandatory subscription service would be the elimination of most alts.

[DoomMunky]

Another person chiming in to say I'll be happy to help support the site in whatever way would be most helpful. Subscription, donation, whatever.

I want a T shirt that says "I'm a fan of first date smoochin'"

[TimElhajj]

I guess at least you've gone from saying I reported you to just implying it.

What's all this? I thought he apologized.

[TimElhajj]

One positive consequence of making a mandatory subscription service would be the elimination of most alts.

A subscription that doesn't cover alts is poor ass subscription model. You're going to have me paying through the nose here!

[Jason Cross]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that you have to be a "subscriber" to post. Not to access the forums, just to post.

It would solve the problem of donations where you always have to ask for more every time the well runs dry. And the entitlement issue and the freeloader issue and so on. But more than that, it would solve the only real problem Qt3 ever has, which is:

"Look out, I'm about to let in a bunch of people and some of them are going to be shitheads!" People will post any old dumb thing when it's free, but tend to think twice about paying to be an asshole. Or viral marketer.

I think the thing to do is to make sure it's not a boring, run-of-the-mill subscription. Not just X dollars a month or year or something. That's the part where the hive-mind should really come up with something creative and awesome.

But fundamentally...yeah...putting the posting privileges behind some sort of pay gate seems to make sense to me.

[cliffski]

I see unique visitors, but can't get the page view numbers without using the "Pro" version...

this looks a bit higher than my server, which is dedicated, and presumably forums use a fair bit of cpu, so you want a dedicated box.
I'm guessing around $200 a month.

[Hans Lauring]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that you have to be a "subscriber" to post. Not to access the forums, just to post.

It would solve the problem of donations where you always have to ask for more every time the well runs dry. And the entitlement issue and the freeloader issue and so on. But more than that, it would solve the only real problem Qt3 ever has, which is:

"Look out, I'm about to let in a bunch of people and some of them are going to be shitheads!" People will post any old dumb thing when it's free, but tend to think twice about paying to be an asshole. Or viral marketer.

I think the thing to do is to make sure it's not a boring, run-of-the-mill subscription. Not just X dollars a month or year or something. That's the part where the hive-mind should really come up with something creative and awesome.

But fundamentally...yeah...putting the posting privileges behind some sort of pay gate seems to make sense to me.

I know it's not a democracy, but I vote for this.

[chequers]

Mandatory subscription turns the board from fun side project into commercial enterprise. And unless you can deal with entitled users without empathy that might be a good way to turn the forum into a chore.

[WarrenM]

Mandatory subscription turns the board from fun side project into commercial enterprise. And unless you can deal with entitled users without empathy that might be a good way to turn the forum into a chore.
Yep, this an an excellent point as well. Once people start paying for something, they will expect service and begin making demands. It's just how humans work. Right now, Tom can tell them to take a flying leap and get out of his living room but if they're paying to be there ... well ...

[krayzkrok]

Maybe all Tom needs is somewhere, regularly updated, that tells everyone what month the forums are paid up to, and a paypal account address. I'm pretty sure the rest would sort itself out, without any subscription issues or entitlement woes.

[Brian Rucker]

Well, my PayPal account has been screwed up for decades. I got an account early on to donate money to help maintain a MUSH back before anyone really knew what it was. And I promptly forgot. The next time I tried to set up an account it reminded me I already had one. One with a street address, phone number and email account that were all toast. I was supposed to fax them all kinds of personal information to sort it out which didn't seem like a great idea to me.

Make it debit/credit card payable and I'm in. Does Amazon offer any kind of service like this? I know they take donations for disaster relief as I've given there before. Once a month (or a year), a one-click donation, and I'd be good with that.

Also, yes to the merchandise. I'd really like shirts and a bumper sticker and things like that. Seriously. My old Qt3 shirt long deaders though I keep it around for sentimental reasons. Maybe it's not sustainable but even a profit spike is a good thing until the long term plans get sorted out.

[Cubit]

Yep, this an an excellent point as well. Once people start paying for something, they will expect service and begin making demands. It's just how humans work. Right now, Tom can tell them to take a flying leap and get out of his living room but if they're paying to be there ... well ...

Eh, I really don't think so. The only thing we would be paying for is server up-time, nothing else. If you make that clear, I doubt there would be any issues like you describe.

[Cubit]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that you have to be a "subscriber" to post. Not to access the forums, just to post.

It would solve the problem of donations where you always have to ask for more every time the well runs dry. And the entitlement issue and the freeloader issue and so on. But more than that, it would solve the only real problem Qt3 ever has, which is:

"Look out, I'm about to let in a bunch of people and some of them are going to be shitheads!" People will post any old dumb thing when it's free, but tend to think twice about paying to be an asshole. Or viral marketer.

I think the thing to do is to make sure it's not a boring, run-of-the-mill subscription. Not just X dollars a month or year or something. That's the part where the hive-mind should really come up with something creative and awesome.

But fundamentally...yeah...putting the posting privileges behind some sort of pay gate seems to make sense to me.

Yep. My thoughts exactly. You kill a lot of birds with one stone.

[Ōishi]

Not only you're killing birds but you'll automatically get rid of a greater part of the community as well.

500 active posters FTW.

[Cubit]

Not only you're killing birds but you'll automatically get rid of a greater part of the community as well.

500 active posters FTW.

You believe only about 25% off this community would pay a few bucks a year to support it? You think a lot less of Qt3 than I do.

[Chris Nahr]

Not only you're killing birds but you'll automatically get rid of a greater part of the community as well.

500 active posters FTW.

See? Another benefit!

[Lizard_King]

Maybe all Tom needs is somewhere, regularly updated, that tells everyone what month the forums are paid up to, and a paypal account address. I'm pretty sure the rest would sort itself out, without any subscription issues or entitlement woes.
This is a good idea for an initial attempt, since the goal as I've interpreted it should be to transparently fund the forum rather than make it into a business. New posters are not a problem any more than old posters, and I don't see xenophobia as a healthy bonus feature for the means used to support the site.

[Ōishi]

You believe only about 25% off this community would pay a few bucks a year to support it? You think a lot less of Qt3 than I do.
I wouldn't bet on the willingness of people to actively pay for online amusement or the privilege to post on an internet forum. I don't say it can't be done in the case of QT3 as I don't know this community in detail, it is however a thousand percent more risky than to simply try to ask for paypal donations and see how that works as a first step.


See? Another benefit!
I don't know. A forum generating a new post every couple of hours is not a benefit in my opinion.

[Tom Chick]

Hey guys,

First and foremost, huge thanks to those of you who donated via PayPal! I can't say enough how great you guys are. At times, I get discouraged and figure this whole silly enterprise is just a waste of time. And then I'm astonished at the support that comes out of the woodwork. Every contribution is deeply appreciated, and the support I've gotten from some of you -- I really want to name names, but you know who you are -- is ridiculously above and beyond the call of duty. You guys rock planets.

(BTW, it is absolutely a verified PayPal account! It's the same account I use for pay for the forum and it's got a little entry that reads "verified" on the account details. I guarantee that any donations to [email protected] are safe.)

A couple of quick responses to some issues raised:

* I'm really loathe to go the subscription model. I feel very strongly that I want Qt3 to be an inclusive community. I value the long-term posters we have here, and you guys are responsible for the sense of community that we've achieved. But I don't want to stop that community from growing and accepting new members. This might sound kind of weird, but it really does my heart glad to see people with low post counts. I hope that any time you guys see someone with a 30, or a 15, or especially a 1 in the post count box, you'll take a moment out to say something encouraging or to make them feel welcome. And if they say something stupid or inappropriate, go easy on them. Most of the time, they can learn. I remember discovering online discussions at Compuserve way back in the day and not knowing any better than to post questions about Nethack on a chess forum. I figured, 'Hey, these guys like chess and it's the closest I can find to a games discussion, so I'll ask them about this cool Nethack thing I found'. We've all been there. Well, maybe not *there* specifically, but places like it.

* I love the idea of merchandise, but not as a way to raise revenue. Let's definitely revisit that discussion at some point soon.

* I know most of you are kidding, but there is no way on god's green earth I'm going to let you guys stick custom tags on each other's accounts. That way lies madness, tears, and perhaps insanity. But, yeah, it sure would be entertaining. :)

* Sometime around January, things are going to be, uh, a little different. In a good way. I can't say anything else at this point, so I'll just leave this comment here.

Keep the suggestions coming. Once the holiday weekend is over -- it sucks this happened when it did -- I'm hoping to find out more about whether it's worth appealing the decision. The best case scenario is that we can just start up again with Google. But barring that, it'll be time to consider our other options.

And to those of you who made donations to buy me the time to work this out, my sincere thanks. Because of you, we're set for the next couple of months. You make this place as special as it is. I am humbled, grateful, and more determined than ever to do what I can to make this place worthy of you guys.

-Tom

[Cubit]

Sometime around January, things are going to be, uh, a little different. In a good way. I can't say anything else at this point, so I'll just leave this comment here.

Uh oh, folks. Tom is gonna change the color scheme from blue to purple and rename the place Caltrops 2. :)

[Cubit]

Keep the suggestions coming.

What about a new paid (or subscription based) sub-forum for NSFW topics, or something else along those lines? It would give contributors a little reward while keeping the forum as a whole as inclusive as ever.

[Delta]

Uh oh, folks. Tom is gonna change the color scheme from blue to purple and rename the place Caltrops 2. :)

Oh God - anything but the colour change!

[chequers]

'Special people only' subforums either rot or cause the normal forum areas to rot. Either way they suck.

[scotthal]

Uh oh, folks. Tom is gonna change the color scheme from blue to purple and rename the place Caltrops 2. :)

Subscribers keep the blue scheme. Non-subscribers get Caltrops meets Hello Kitty and a word filter that changes "fun" to "fluffy" and "DRM" to "cupcakes and ice cream."

In all seriousness, moving to a subscription model would significantly increase the amount of work Tom has to put into the site. It complicates taxes, and the threat of contributory copyright infringement alone means little choice but to take on some kind of corporate structure to limit liability. That's all time consuming and quite the opposite of fun.

[cliffski]

dont you mean fluffy?

[WarrenM]

Not only you're killing birds but you'll automatically get rid of a greater part of the community as well.

500 active posters FTW.
Eh, Planetcrap gets by with 5 or 6 ...

j/k

[Coca Cola Zero]

* I know most of you are kidding, but there is no way on god's green earth I'm going to let you guys stick custom tags on each other's accounts. That way lies madness, tears, and perhaps insanity. But, yeah, it sure would be entertaining. :)

Aw. What if it is opt-in? I wouldn't mind allowing people to attach stupid custom tags to me if it meant they had to donate $5 or whatever to the site. I guess it might not be worth the trouble to set it up if not enough would opt-in, but I would.

[Hechicera]

I'm happy go with whatever alternative is decided on. I run an ad-blocker and I hate being made to feel like a leeching tool but I refuse to deal with the security implications, so moving away from ads would be great for me.

This ... and from a four year old account that just broke 100 posts. I was lurking even before the account date too. I've donated to other sites have advertising just because I always run with blockers up. On the plus side, when I had a WoW account it was never hacked, whee.

Curious what happens next year, but keep us posted if you need more help, even this long-time lurker would be happy to see this site stay up an inclusive.

[Bad Neighbor]

How about a little gold contributor star next to our name?

Or a Christmas card?

[stusser]

Pretty much any of the above would pretty easily cover current hosting costs, but I don't see how anything but advertising would scale up to showing a real profit. I suppose RPS shows that optional subscriptions can work, but do those guys actually make a living from the site or do they treat it as a bagatelle?

I co-ran a bunch of gaming websites back in the mid-90s. We were paid in actual CPM, making between $0.25 and $6 CPM from several ad networks. Much more of the former than the latter, but still. This was well before google ads; I believe we ended up with flycast, which was dissolved in 1999 or so. Our hosting costs were dramatically higher than anyone pays today, but our pageviews were much, much higher than Qt3's and they were all content, not forums. There were maybe 7-8 kids working on the site, all part-time, nobody relying on the money to pay their rent, and I believe we topped out at like $6.5k/month, minus $2500 for hosting. That sounds pretty good and all, but that's only $48k/yr net, split 8 ways.

Maybe my experience is dated now, that was 10 years ago (jesus, 10 years!) but it was sure tough to make a living that way. Chet would certainly know better than me.

[Brad Grenz]

Tom should just make the Bananas and Nuts thread pay-per-post and use the power of yentas to fund the forum!

[TimElhajj]

Tom should just make the Bananas and Nuts thread pay-per-post and use the power of yentas to fund the forum!

LOL, Ka-ching!

[Alstein]

I'd rather see a flat-out donation model, using Google Checkout and Paypal.

Donators would get custom titles, and maybe the ability to upvote/downvote posts? (Sirlin's forums have that feature, and it works there, and I think it would work here, though it wouldn't work many other places)

[hong]

To properly harmonise seniority with monetary value, Tom should sell join date. The more you pay, the earlier you have joined the site. (Obviously, the converse -- the earlier you join, the more you pay -- would be infeasible.)

[Talorc]

Most of the time, they can learn. I remember discovering online discussions at Compuserve way back in the day and not knowing any better than to post questions about Nethack on a chess forum. I figured, 'Hey, these guys like chess and it's the closest I can find to a games discussion, so I'll ask them about this cool Nethack thing I found'. We've all been there. Well, maybe not *there* specifically, but places like it.

My first post on the "internet" (usenet at the time) upon being armed with my first year comp sci lab pass was a very half formed vague reply to someone asking where was the magic carpet in Ultima 7. Based upon my maybe 10 hours of gameplay, the answer I gave was something like "well it is maybe over to the left a bit kind of around some mountains outside some cave dungeon thingie, near the main big castle town where the king lives"

Of course this post was to the group rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons.

Needless to say some distinctly more helpful, dare I say erudite, posters turned up in short order to assist more fully with the answer. They were even terribly nice about correcting me.

I never liked donations for these things, because it sounds like charity, when really it is capitalism. I think this is a cultural thing, with those in the US more used to donating to worthy public service type things like NPR or whatever. But I can see it is superior to having to run the thing like a business and the sense of entitlement that comes with subscribing. If you must go that way, free to view, nominal fee to post (yearly) sounds OK.

Really, just join a big network :-) Funny how the UGO model has come back.

[Dean]

* Sometime around January, things are going to be, uh, a little different. In a good way. I can't say anything else at this point, so I'll just leave this comment here.

-Tom

Uh oh, Syfy bought Qt3. We're all blogging for them now.

[Cubit]

I, for one, welcome our new SyFy overlords.

[Mike O'Malley]

SyFy? Yay, wrestling! CAN YOU SMELL WHAT TOM CHICK IS COOKING?

[Mightynute]

SyFy? Yay, wrestling! CAN YOU SMELL WHAT TOM CHICK IS COOKING?

It smells like Hot Pockets and ramen.

[serling]

For T-shirt design, I'd totally go for a print of the Chick Parabola.

... The bell curve.

[AndrewM]

SyFy? Yay, wrestling! CAN YOU SMELL WHAT TOM CHICK IS COOKING?
Get ready for the new subforum, Politics and Religion and Looking for Ghosts.

[Wader]

For T-shirt design, I'd totally go for a print of the Chick Parabola.

... The bell curve.

I still want a t-shirt with the phrase "Do you know Tom Chick?".

[Raife]

Uh oh, Syfy bought Qt3. We're all blogging for them now.

I'll see you guys in the new Mansquito forums.

[Brian Rucker]

Hey, no smartassery about SyFy here. We don't want to get Tom into trouble with someone else!

[Rimbo]

'Special people only' subforums either rot or cause the normal forum areas to rot. Either way they suck.

Agreed. The same could be said for "special people only" IRC channels, too.

[frank austin]

Agreed. The same could be said for "special people only" IRC channels, too.

We have one of those?

[Raife]

Someone is bitter.

[ElGuapo]

And you thought we were cliquey and grumpy now! Wait till we pay to be here!

Bunch of grumpy old PC men complaining about the service. Oy vey!

[Jon Shafer]

Is January when Qt3 exits beta?

Jon

[Talorc]

Is January when Qt3 exits beta?

Jon

That would be awesome!

Tom could make the whole site disappear for a week and pretend like the whole thing had to go in some publicity stunt due to unspecified difficulties.

Then dress up in a nuns outfit to say sorry on YouTube and give everyone a free post in bananas and nuts as a "my bad" apology gift.

[DragonPup]

Uh oh, Syfy bought Qt3. We're all blogging for them now.

Does that mean we have to be nice to the character of Chloe now? :\

[Jon Shafer]

That would be awesome!

Tom could make the whole site disappear for a week and pretend like the whole thing had to go in some publicity stunt due to unspecified difficulties.

Then dress up in a nuns outfit to say sorry on YouTube and give everyone a free post in bananas and nuts as a "my bad" apology gift.
Seeing Tom dressed up as a nun would definitely be worth a week of downtime.

Jon

[Raife]

Photoshop his head onto a nun. No downtime required.

You cold even make him talk Monty Python animation style.

[Rimbo]

And have him say, "You're all a bunch of yentas."

[hong]

For T-shirt design, I'd totally go for a print of the Chick Parabola.

... The bell curve.
The Chick parabola is the gaussian log-likelihood!


Only skedastic will get this joke.

[Aldran]

Even in my case (a 2-year lurker and a 3-year registered lurker), I would gladly pay in if a system like the one on the SA forums would be in effect here.
Say what you will about that forum, but it is leaps and bounds above the usual forums on the Internet. This forum, with free registration, is leaps and bounds above SA.
I think 'encouraging' people to not create countless alts and know that their money is gone when they are banned, will at least keep this quality, while also paying for the bandwidth.

[stusser]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.

[Cubit]

^ That isn't a thread, folks. It's a promise.

[interman]

I paid for an SA account back in 2004, and it was well worth it. It got me exercise, instruments, fixed relationship problems, and made me nearly invulnerable to gross things.

And yeah, I'd pay for qt3 too.

[notatiger]

^ That isn't a thread, folks. It's a promise.

I think it is just a comment, actually.

[Lizard_King]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.

I'm glad to hear that, as it's similar to how I feel about it.

[Cubit]

I think it is just a comment, actually.

Dammit! :)

[mrmolecule88]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.

*phew*

[marxeil]

Why the aversion to subscription. We all pay monthly subscriptions for thing we enjoy much less (electricity, water, rent etc).

[sinnick]

I dunno. I kind of enjoy having water.

[Staff Sergeant]

Yeah hahah no offense to quarter to three but in terms of necessities it does not stack up well in comparison to water and shelter.

[Lizard_King]

Why the aversion to subscription. We all pay monthly subscriptions for thing we enjoy much less (electricity, water, rent etc).

I'm not comfortable with conflating my social and market-based relationships in that manner. I enjoy lots of things that would be significantly different if I was paying as part of a commercial relationship rather than adding a voluntary, exclusively nonprofit expense to a social one.

[stusser]

I'm not against subscriptions, just mandatory ones. I like the RPS system, although I don't know how well it actually works.

[Cubit]

Well, whatever Tom decides to do I just hope it doesn't include ads. They provide too convenient a vector for viruses and malware. I'm comfortable with any revenue generation method except ads.

[Raife]

I'm not against subscriptions, just mandatory ones. I like the RPS system, although I don't know how well it actually works.

It works fine until they send you 25 emails in a day because they keep correcting themselves and apparently are horrified that they might offend someone who gives them two dollars.

[Mark Asher]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.

Yeah, the only way I would pay for forum access is if it was work-related and I thought participating benefited me professionally.

[marxeil]

So we need a model for micro transactions. Easy - you can see the 1st 5 posts of any thread. Unlocking the rest is 25c (5c in P&R).

[Lorini]

Count me out on a subscription basis also, at least I would not subscribe given what Qt3 offers now.

[Ben Sones]

Yeah hahah no offense to quarter to three but in terms of necessities it does not stack up well in comparison to water and shelter.

How does it compare to a magazine subscription?

[mrmolecule88]

I don't get to troll people in a magazine I'm reading.

Err, I mean, have a discussion with them.

[XPav]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.
What about if every subscriber was sent a monocle? Would that change your mind?

[cliffski]

If this forum went to mandatory payment for registrations, not only would I not pay, I would leave.

And yes, of course existing users would be grandfathered in, and I would likely be exempt anyway since I help out with the tech stuff, but that's not the point. I would never pay to join an internet forum, and I wouldn't be a part of such an exclusionary community.

wow.
I bet you never go to a bar, a movie theater or anywhere else that charges admission?

I'd pay a subscription for here, and for rps, maybe 1 or 2 other sites, if it was cheap. Personally I don't understand why people are so against it. It's just what you are used to paying for, and not paying for. if you equate it with worth, then it's well worth it. Although as an advertiser, I'd quite like the option to run ads here :D

[Lizard_King]

How does it compare to a magazine subscription?

It's not a question of value, it's a question of the nature of my relationship to it. That's something that's easy for nerds to misapply our tendency to put a number on everything, but that number means more than just operating expenses when it's a barrier to entry to a potentially for-profit enterprise. Then it becomes a question of what my contribution time is worth and what I'm getting out of it, and that's not a cost-benefit analysis that one applies to social relationships.

As a side bonus, paid subscriptions practically require more invasive moderation. People will be much more tolerant of diversity in a free/non-profit social environment than in a wannabe online country club.


I bet you never go to a bar, a movie theater or anywhere else that charges admission?
That's a preexisting commercial relationship with a social dimension. I bet you never pay to go hang out in someone's living room.

I understand your impulse to find a sensible path for monetizing qt3, but it's a change that carries a host of implications that are not immediately apparent. Again, Dan Ariely does a fine job of explaining this (http://books.google.com/books?id=ro7X8HRyuEIC&lpg=PP1&dq=dan%20ariely%20predictably%20irrational&pg=PA75#v=onepage&q&f=false), and his book in general should be required reading to counterbalance the prevailing trend in trying to change commercial relationships into social ones and vice versa. It's not necessarily true in all situations, but it makes a lot of sense in this one.

[Slainte Mhath]

I'd be happy to donate quarterly or subscribe monthly if that's what Tom decides. It seems like he's hesitant to go either route though, which I can understand since then you get into territory where people feel entitled to special treatment if they're paying and others are not.

What about alternative ad sources like some of the ones mentioned already? Anyone have experience with them?

Do retail sites still have referral programs? We have a metric fuckton of people on this site who buy stuff through Amazon, GoGamer, Steam, NewEgg, Impulse and a dozen or more other popular sites. Is it possible to join programs where clicking through before you buy would benefit QT3, then stick the links on the homepage or in a sticky at the top of the Games forum? I would support that 100% coming here and clicking through before every purchase, and even if it was only pennies per purchase I bet it would add up with all the buying power we possess collectively at QT3.

[Staff Sergeant]

How does it compare to a magazine subscription?

It's apples and oranges.

[Staff Sergeant]

Which is not to say I wouldn't pay to stay here if the price was reasonable, but it is not comparable to actual necessities.

EDIT: TBH I wasn't really sure why I was paying for my gaming mag sub near the end of it either. Those things were like 50% advertising.

[DennyA]

Count me out on a subscription basis also, at least I would not subscribe given what Qt3 offers now.
I take back my prior defense of you! <animated emoticon of dazed smiley with stars rotating around its head> Qt3 has been part of my daily regimen, and my favorite place to keep track of the pulse of the gaming community, for nearly a decade now.

Qt3 offers the most entertaining, useful, and interesting gaming community on the intarwebs. I'd pay money for that. Though I agree that mandatory subscriptions aren't the way to go, and I don't think Tom is even entertaining that idea.

[Lizard_King]

I don't think Tom is even entertaining that idea.
I think it's clear he's come to some kind of resolution, so at this point we are just talking about it in the abstract.

[Rimbo]

I would really enjoy the ability to donate automatically on a subscription. Just every month, a couple of bucks out of my account for QT3. No side benefits (other than maybe "not seeing ads"), no special privileges, no "Awesome User!" status. That way, I can do my share to help keep the place running without having to have Tom ask "Need fundz!#$@" and stuff.

And if it's a small enough amount (like $1/mo), I think more people will do it and that they'll be less likely to feel privileged.

[mrmolecule88]

I'd be happy to donate quarterly or subscribe monthly if that's what Tom decides. It seems like he's hesitant to go either route though, which I can understand since then you get into territory where people feel entitled to special treatment if they're paying and others are not.

What about alternative ad sources like some of the ones mentioned already? Anyone have experience with them?

Do retail sites still have referral programs? We have a metric fuckton of people on this site who buy stuff through Amazon, GoGamer, Steam, NewEgg, Impulse and a dozen or more other popular sites. Is it possible to join programs where clicking through before you buy would benefit QT3, then stick the links on the homepage or in a sticky at the top of the Games forum? I would support that 100% coming here and clicking through before every purchase, and even if it was only pennies per purchase I bet it would add up with all the buying power we possess collectively at QT3.

This is probably the best idea so far. QT3, take note!

[Raife]

Count me out on a subscription basis also, at least I would not subscribe given what Qt3 offers now.

That right there might be a reason to go to subscription system.

[Cormac]

I'd be happy to donate quarterly or subscribe monthly if that's what Tom decides. It seems like he's hesitant to go either route though, which I can understand since then you get into territory where people feel entitled to special treatment if they're paying and others are not.

What about alternative ad sources like some of the ones mentioned already? Anyone have experience with them?

Do retail sites still have referral programs? We have a metric fuckton of people on this site who buy stuff through Amazon, GoGamer, Steam, NewEgg, Impulse and a dozen or more other popular sites. Is it possible to join programs where clicking through before you buy would benefit QT3, then stick the links on the homepage or in a sticky at the top of the Games forum? I would support that 100% coming here and clicking through before every purchase, and even if it was only pennies per purchase I bet it would add up with all the buying power we possess collectively at QT3.

upvote!

[jerri blank]

I recommend the Amazon referral thing. You can put a search box right on the site, and every search going through there can end up netting a little commission. With the number of people here, and the holidays coming up, you might do okay.

[Lorini]

The games discussion (which is what drew me here) is miles better on somethingawful.com. You can use emoticons on nearly any other internet forum except this one. There's more fair and more balanced :) moderation on nearly any other internet forum except this one.

It turns out that my favorite part of this forum is the sports discussions. For games, I generally go elsewhere. It used to be that you could hear from developers and that was good but certain users have driven most of them off.

Yeah I'm here and I participate but it's not worth money. Glad other people do and if it goes to subscription, then I wish Tom well but I won't be here. Btw I just paid $25 for a full sub at somethingawful, but I find that forum to be far more valuable to me.

[kerzain]

You can use emoticons here, you just have to know how to access them. http://i54.tinypic.com/2mpwxg9.gif

[DennyA]

The games discussion (which is what drew me here) is miles better on somethingawful.com.
Oh-kay.... Well, some people thought JEFF K was funny, so to each her own.

[Cubit]

The games discussion (which is what drew me here) is miles better on somethingawful.com. You can use emoticons on nearly any other internet forum except this one.

o_0

45

[Lizard_King]

Again, I think the relative value of forums is a problematic goalpost for the conversation. I contribute to BGG to uphold the comprehensive database and review mechanism, a sort of super Angie's list for the hobby. The forums are incidental to that consideration, and you end up with ludicrous considerations like "fair and balanced" modding and emoticon use when you start evaluating them as such.

[stusser]

I didn't mean to imply that gating access with paid subscriptions couldn't work, or that it can't improve the signal/noise, although I don't think it would work here since we lack the critical mass of teeming hordes looking to chat about their lolcats or whatever. Somethingawful is something of a unique case. All I said was that I personally wouldn't pay to access any forum. I'd feel like a sucker.

Before you start tossing stones, keep in mind that I've spent a fair bit of time and effort keeping this site running over the past two and a half years.

[BobJustBob]

if it goes to subscription, then I wish Tom well but I won't be here

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD TOM DO IT

[TimElhajj]

^ That isn't a thread, folks. It's a promise.

I'm a man who likes a little pun.

[Chris]

The old front page (http://www.quartertothree.com/oldindex.html) still has referral links. My bookmark to Amazon still uses that old link though I don't know if Tom gets anything from it these days.

[Aszurom]

I wouldn't be here either. I'd pay for moderation, but not to listen to the usual bullshit and flame & jab.

Now, to BAN people? I'd pay money for that. We could pass the hat and fund the site, clean up the streets, and cure cancer all at once with that plan.

Let's say... $20 to bad someone, and $20 to buy them out of jail. $100 is a perma-ban and takes $100 to reverse. I think we could find 10 people with $10 for a few characters. How long would that float the site?

[chequers]

Anything that reduces poster variety seems to be something Tom dislikes. That's good, because I dislike it too.

[Staff Sergeant]

Anything that reduces poster variety seems to be something Tom dislikes. That's good, because I dislike it too.

I'm not sure if you are trying to make a joke here but I found this hilarious.

[Tom Chick]

As you'll notice, it looks like we're back in AdSense's good graces thanks to the appeals process! Yay!

However, I had no idea whether this was going to happen, so I hope it doesn't sound like I was crying wolf. I deeply deeply appreciate the Paypal contributions, but they're not strictly necessary at this point. If anyone feels misled, or was going out on a limb to help, I will gladly return what you donated, no questions asked. Seriously. It means a lot that so many of you helped and I wouldn't begrudge anyone who would rather wait to contribute when things really are dire. As it is now, Qt3 just lost a week, and you guys more than covered that. So please feel free to PM or email me and I'll gladly return your PayPal donation until a rainier day.

That said, any contributions will definitely go towards the, uh, "January Initiative". I should probably think up a sexier name. That sounds like some half-assed spy novel.

-Tom

[stusser]

Great news! From what Chet said, I thought the appeals process was like a black hole.

[Major Malphunktion]

The old front page (http://www.quartertothree.com/oldindex.html) still has referral links. My bookmark to Amazon still uses that old link though I don't know if Tom gets anything from it these days.


Oh yeah, shoot club..I loved that.

Add me to the I'll pay something list. Qt3 is part of my daily life, and I find far more interesting things here than any other game site.
I just wish I could change my damn name. Solomon is so last century.

[Raife]

The January Initiative, founded by Tom Chick, is a controversial project that cryogenically freezes the brains of prominent video game reviewers to be reanimated when technology has advanced enough to support the hobby.

[TimElhajj]

Let's say... $20 to bad someone, and $20 to buy them out of jail. $100 is a perma-ban and takes $100 to reverse. I think we could find 10 people with $10 for a few characters. How long would that float the site?

Awesome idea. We could have good guy and bad guy camps just like WWF!

[TimElhajj]

That said, any contributions will definitely go towards the, uh, "January Initiative". I should probably think up a sexier name.

Knew it! We're changing from a gaming site to a porn site -- the only tried and true method of making money on the Internet. Wait till you see the new podcasts!

[JM]

SA's gaming forums are a goldmine of information. It's not all JeffK shit.

[Murph]

I'd pay regularly if I would get me more Shoot Club.

(Okay, really, I'd pay regularly anyway, because I value the community, but Shoot Club would be a nice incentive!!)

[Slainte Mhath]

The old front page (http://www.quartertothree.com/oldindex.html) still has referral links. My bookmark to Amazon still uses that old link though I don't know if Tom gets anything from it these days.

Blast from the past! I'd forgotten the old page had referral links. Good catch.


As you'll notice, it looks like we're back in AdSense's good graces thanks to the appeals process! Yay!

-Tom

Excellent news! Tom, do you know if those referral program links via the old front page (see above) still work (as in pay you money)? If so, or if they can be renewed, would you consider putting the links up on the current front page or in a "Support QT3 Through Referrals" sticky post in the Games forum? I know I'm not alone when I say I would gladly use them, especially if it meant we could raise enough money to add a lolcats forum.

What?

[Charlatan]

Since it's back are we now in the post-post-Google AdSense age?

[Tom Chick]

Tom, do you know if those referral program links via the old front page (see above) still work (as in pay you money)? If so, or if they can be renewed, would you consider putting the links up on the current front page or in a "Support QT3 Through Referrals" sticky post in the Games forum? I know I'm not alone when I say I would gladly use them, especially if it meant we could raise enough money to add a lolcats forum.

Those old referral links don't work. Well, they probably still send money to chet, so in that sense they might work! Let me look into what it would take to set those up again. I'll announce something in a self-serving stickied post when I puzzle it out. :)

-Tom

[DragonPup]

As you'll notice, it looks like we're back in AdSense's good graces thanks to the appeals process! Yay!

Phew! For a moment I thought we'd have to have hoped that Syfy would buy this sight and we'd have to have threads on why Chloe Armstrong is a wonderful character.

[shang]

IMHO, the system at BoardGameGeek is pretty good. Donating each year gives you a small supporter badge for that year next to your username, but more importantly, donating let's you switch off ads on the site.

The latter, I think, is a very good compromise. Those who want, can still use the site for free, but those of us who mainly consider web ads as attack vectors for malware can still support the site, while keeping AdBlock etc. running with clear conscience.

[RickH]

Count me out on a subscription basis also, at least I would not subscribe given what Qt3 offers now.

You mean abuse? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's abvailable at cost (zero!) all over the net. As Raife's top-of-the-page post illustrates, there's an active cadre of people on this site dedicated to making others feel unwelcome. And it's working.

While I might chip in in an annual fundraiser like the GWJ guys do, the idea of a new recurring charge to my credit lines lacks appeal.

[RickH]

Oh-kay.... Well, some people thought JEFF K was funny, so to each her own.

I know I LOLed.

[Pogo]

Merch!

I'd buy a qt3 shirt, why not?

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1532/qt3wigger.jpg


Representin' the Q to the 3, bitch.

[Papageno]

Yay, the ads are back!

[Coreander]

Actually games discussion on SA is very good. I have been lurking there for years. Anybody with an interest in Dwarf Fortress would enjoy the Gemclod thread, for example.

The $tenbux$ is an entirely reasonable fee but I'm a cheapskate.

[Jason Cross]

That said, any contributions will definitely go towards the, uh, "January Initiative". I should probably think up a sexier name. That sounds like some half-assed spy novel.


Just call it "Tom Clancy's January Initiative" (tm). Instant NYT bestseller with movie option!

[Coca Cola Zero]

Just call it "Tom Clancy's January Initiative" (tm). Instant NYT bestseller with movie option!

Also there's a pretty good chance Tom Clancy can't keep all the things he gets paid to slap his name on straight anymore so you might fly under the radar legally.

[scharmers]

Oh-kay.... Well, some people thought JEFF K was funny, so to each her own.

I had a L33T LIEK JEFF K. T-Shirt way back in the day.

Wait; what?

[hong]

If only we'd had B1FF T-shirts back in the day, Usenet would still be alive!

[Jason McCullough]

Hilariously I got this, searching today:



Try Google Webmaster Tools (http://www.google.com/intl/en/webmasters/#utm_source=en-wmxmsg&utm_medium=wmxmsg&utm_campaign=bm)


www.google.com/webmasters/ Do you own quartertothree.com? Get indexing and ranking data from Google.

[GeeWhiz]

Personally, I think we should all write a SNAIL mail letter to Google's CEO asking for his help. That would be funny that we need to use regular mail to get their attention.

[MrCoffee]

Scientology ads oh how i missed you.