So, Boy Scouts: evil, pure evil, or sometimes non-evil?

[RepoMan]

The Boy Scouts have their own multi-decadal epic pedophilia scandal going on. Astoundingly similar to the one afflicting the Catholic church.

Story #1: (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/irving/stories/072510dnmetscouts100thsidebar.42ec7e6.html)

News organizations and child advocates are awaiting an Oregon (http://topics.dallasnews.com/topic/Oregon) court's ruling on whether thousands of internal files documenting suspected pedophiles in Scouting should be released to the public.
The so-called "ineligible volunteer" files are kept at the Boy Scouts' national headquarters in Irving.
Spanning two decades between 1965 and 1985, they tell unspeakable stories.

Story #2: (http://www.newsmax.com/US/Boy-Scouts-Pedophilia-Scandal/2010/04/05/id/354731)

With the Vatican in the grips of a pedophilia scandal, the spotlight in America is being turned on U.S. scouting, which is accused of keeping quiet about decades of alleged sexual aggression by its leaders against young boys.

The Boy Scouts of America are being sued by a man who said he was abused five times when he was between 11 and 12 years old by his then-scoutmaster in Portland, Oregon.

The identity of the alleged victim, now 37, is being concealed for fear of reprisals related to the 29-million-dollar sex abuse lawsuit he brought against the Boy Scouts of America and its local Portland branch, the Cascade Pacific Council.

Etc., etc., etc.

This is all very depressing for me, as we have two kids, a girl (almost 6) and a boy (just turned 3). My wife is starting up a new Daisy Girl Scout troop. The Girl Scouts seem like a good organization -- my wife speaks very highly of the moms she's met through there. And Lord knows there's nothing wrong with the concept of an organization dedicated to making positive experiences for kids!

But the fucking Boy Scouts... man, not only do they have this pedophilia thing going on, but they also have their astoundingly offensive anti-atheist, anti-agnostic, and anti-homosexual membership policy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies) As far as I know, the Girl Scouts have none of these things. I am vehemently opposed to all of these policies, and so I have severe qualms about letting my son anywhere near that organization.

So my question is, are there any other organizations (whether local to the Pacific Northwest where I live, or nationwide) that have similarly valuable functions as the Boy Scouts? All-boys organizations would be fine, or co-ed, it doesn't matter. Basically I want my son to have some kind of Scouting-like experience, without the evils of the actual Boy Scouts themselves.

Edit: Did I mention our family is Unitarian Universalist? Turns out our church has already had a falling out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalist_Association#Boy_Scouts_of_A merica_controversy) with the Boy Scouts of America. DEFINITELY not gonna go there now!

[Timex]

Wouldn't the classification of the pedos as "ineligible volunteers" suggest that they are in fact making some attempt to exclude them from working in their organization?

[kerzain]

Well, to give them credit, the their astoundingly offensive anti-atheist, anti-agnostic, and anti-homosexual membership policies were their attempts to keep all the sexual predators out. Unfortunately for the kids, nobody realized until it was too late that it's actually the religious men doing most of the molesting.

[Juan Rayo]

I'd go with just evil.

They don't have the catholic church history of:



Siding with oppressive regimes against the vast majority of population.
Using the religion excuse to send millions to die for land.
Fucking up the Jewish people during WW2
Coming up with new and improved torture techniques and using them enthusiastically
Support the killing of 22 million indigenous people in central America alone
Protecting child abusers
Denouncing feminism and women's rights movements as sinful.
Making a full third of the wold population think sex is dirty and unnatural.
Using the "but we also DO GOOD!" excuse so people can't blame them for any of that terrible terrible shit.
Using the "hey, that was a LONG TIME AGO" defense so people can't blame them for the previously mentioned shit.
Keeping third word countries fucked with their anti sex ed, anti birth control practices
Keeping third world countries fucked up with their support for ultra conservative regimes (see #1).
See # 9 and # 10 again, and again, and again.

I'd say scouts are downright angelic in comparison.

fwiw, during my many years as a scout I never encountered pedo behavior, not to say it wasn't there, at least me and my troop buddies never heard about it. We thought it was stupid in many things, but we never heard or encountered any child abuse, nor have we heard of any news about in my country in, what, the last 26 years or so.

[Enidigm]

The Scouts weren't pedos when i was a scout for about three months, just assholes. They ditched me after a scouting meeting and locked me, apparently unnoticed, in the pitch black church basement when i was 10. Hehe, yea, i got the hint.

[ceolstan]

You might want to check out to see if CampfireUSA is active in your area. It was originally a girls' alternative to Boy Scouting, but now includes both girls and boys.

Edit: And for what it's worth, I think that the Boy Scouts of America have come under increasing influence of the Conservative Christian groups, a development that has contributed to their anti-gay position. Girl Scouting specifically forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. Other Scouting organizations around the world find that sexual orientation is a non-issue. I don't believe that Canadian Boy Scouting discriminates, for example.

Good luck in your search. My brothers enjoyed the Y Indian Guides, though the organization is, I think, disbanded due to the racism inherent in some of its portrayals of Native Americans. Their experiences with Boy Scouting were mixed. In the US, the quality was pretty meh. They had a great time with their scout troops in England, though.

[Lorini]

CampfireUSA would seem to fit UU principles too.

[TimElhajj]

Past allegations alone doesn't mean an organization is bad. Likewise, you can't pretend that no past exposure means any particular venue is safe. From what I've seen of the statistics on child sexual abuse, you have to maintain a healthy sense of skepticism about everyone, particularly the people you trust the most. I'm not saying this to defend the scouts or the Catholics, but just because it's what I believe.

We tried out scouts with my son, but I found it lacking. He seemed mostly ambivilant, and I couldn't get into hanging out with the scouts. I boogered up my hands trying to carve a wooden race car (half a dozen bandaids on my fingers and palm) and that was the last straw.

The girl scouts in the PNW are amazing. They have money--big tracts of undeveloped land by the waterfront, where they have camps setup for the girls. They also have tons of paperwork. If the boys did something, it was just like a few dads deciding who would drive, who would make the costco run, etc. If the girls scouts do anything, the first thing that happens is a dozen forms go home, all of which need to be filled out in triplicate for your child is to do anything. I kind of liked that anal sort of organization, but it was funny how deeply different the one organization was from the other. I did a cookie drive once (http://telhajj.com/2008/03/12/blame-it-on-the-wire/) and my daughter still goes to camp. Good luck!

[Enidigm]

The different trajectories of the Girl and Boy Scouts really does seem in some way to symbolize the different ways gender roles have developed in society. Where the Girl Scouts were originally just a "me-too" wannabe Boy Scouts, they have developed into this robust positive organization nationwide that is the equal in every way to where the Boy Scouts used to be. While, otoh, the Boy Scouts is being crushed by the reactionary socio-political fights irrelevant to its mission and its leaders' desires to transform it from within into a boot camp for foot soldiers in the culture wars.

[Timex]

They have money--big tracts of undeveloped land by the waterfront, where they have camps setup for the girls.
I never thought I'd hear someone praising the girl scouts for their huge... tracts of land!

[Lizard_King]

fwiw, during my many years as a scout I never encountered pedo behavior, not to say it wasn't there, at least me and my troop buddies never heard about it. We thought it was stupid in many things, but we never heard or encountered any child abuse, nor have we heard of any news about in my country in, what, the last 26 years or so.

I'm not sure what it's like in Honduras, but for the most part international boy scout units don't seem to have that much in common in with the motherland's. The scouting group I was a part of seemed to have gone to great lengths to be an official Boy Scouts of America (!) chapter abroad as opposed to a Costa Rican Boy Scout organization that existed separately from us. My troop did go much more Christian in later years (around 1993, iirc) and while it was more the Ned Flanders brand of bullshit than Jesus Jihad, it was definitely clear that people uncomfortable with that message should leave. Pity, as it was a good way to get to do a lot of different things before the badges and sieg heil took center stage.

[Angie Gallant]

I don't have any direct experience, but I've heard a lot of good things about Campfire as well.

[Calistas]

Do you guys have Cadets? They do in us commonwealth countries and although they are for older kids, usually, they can be a great alternative.

Here in NZ I went to Sea Scouts (one does cubs until about 11 or 12, I forget, then scouts). It was fun, we mucked about on boats and went on coastal holidays with them, etc etc.

[TimElhajj]

The different trajectories of the Girl and Boy Scouts really does seem in some way to symbolize the different ways gender roles have developed in society. Where the Girl Scouts were originally just a "me-too" wannabe Boy Scouts, they have developed into this robust positive organization nationwide that is the equal in every way to where the Boy Scouts used to be. While, otoh, the Boy Scouts is being crushed by the reactionary socio-political fights irrelevant to its mission and its leaders' desires to transform it from within into a boot camp for foot soldiers in the culture wars.

That's a good point. I don't have as much to do with the girl scouts, but I know one of the dad's on the boy scouts turned me off by talking about a homosexual boy, or maybe an atheist boy. He told me this story about a boy who was being marginalized and I said, "That's fucked up," or something like that and then I realized we were approaching the story with different points of view. He was very generous about it (I was in his car, so that was kind of him). But I was surprised to find that attitude here in the excruciatingly PC Pacific Northwest.

[John Many Jars]

Scout troops vary hugely in their interpretation and implementation of BSA's official values, as well as in pretty much all other respects.

The troop nearest me when I was a kid had a Scoutmaster with one leg. They never went camping or hiking; they did some public service and had discussions of various topics and that was it. I never heard of them encountering any controversy whatsoever.

The troop I joined was some 70 years old, and so was the Scoutmaster. We went camping and hiking all the time thanks to some energetic Assistant Scoutmasters, including my dad, but often we were subjected to rambling, near-nonsensical lectures about God, duty, guns (?), and not cussing or gambling (?!). Our numbers included kids who were serious discipline cases, including pyromaniacs and animal torturers. One Assistant Scoutmaster was arrested for molesting boys who lived in his neighborhood, though as far as we know he never laid a finger on anyone in the troop. The fact was acknowledged at a meeting without much comment (it had already been in the papers), and there was no "he was a sinner" aspect to the announcement. On one campout, two notoriously hyperactive kids were caught engaging in anal sex in their tent. They were separated but not punished or kicked out.

A third troop in our county was a sort of crazy cult of personality centered around their Scoutmaster, who added all kinds of weird rituals and extra rules to the ones in the manual, like yelling "GOD BLESS THE COOK" after every meal. Mostly these would be considered conservative rules, but he also let girls join. That got him in trouble with BSA, and he left the national organization to go independent, but IIRC his troop finally dissolved when he slapped a kid across the face.

A fourth troop included the first open racists I ever met in my life, when I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow, the secret society within Scouting. The two boys assigned to supervise our group informed me that I went to "a nigger school" and that they'd heard my troop was "a nigger troop." One of them had a Confederate flag patch on his uniforms under the American flag patch, which is way, way not in the manual. Oh, and he also told me that I "look like a Jew." They were just two guys, to be fair, but I sure didn't hear anyone talking like that in my troop.

So in other words, YMMV.

[TimElhajj]

I was going to blow this crappy forum, but now I have to stick around to see how John Many Jars made out in the Adventure of the Order of the Arrow!

[salwon]

Order of the Arrow was boring as hell. It basically means you do extra work at the campouts.

[snowcrash22]

In first or second grade I was a Campfire boy that was attached to the only Catholic Church in the county. I think my parents steered me away from the local Boy Scout because they knew the neighborhood kids were assholes.

I don't really have a lot of strong memories other than they didn't molest me (either organization). And no stupid uniforms.

[Tortilla]

You guys and your wussy boy scout trips. I scoff at you wimps. In my youth I went to altar boy camp and survived. The staff was entirely Catholic priests.

No molesting going on that I was aware of, but maybe I just wasn't pretty enough :(

[Kalle]

Your scouts suck. Scouts in Sweden were much better.

[Jason McCullough]

JMJ's overview is about right from what I saw. Scouting is a strange institution.

[Dean]

So according to Bullshit, the BSA was co-opted by the Mormons in the 80's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5I01DF0g1w&feature=related), leading to their anti-atheist, anti-gay, anti-agnostic policy.

Yes, take it with a grain of salt.

That said, I was a Boy Scout in the 80's before I was an atheist, but I wouldn't go near the organization nowadays.

[Mark Asher]

I was a boy scout one summer or so. It was ok. I enjoyed the camping trip I went on and no adult did anything funny. The meetings were mostly boring but we held them at the grade school gym so after the meeting we got to play dodge ball -- that was the highlight.

I couldn't be bothered to do merit badge stuff because you had to earn about a million badges for it to mean anything.

The uniform was stupid. The handbook was boring. It was something to do and that's about all the enthusiasm I had for it, which explains why only one summer.

I did get abused in Cub Scouts, though! Not like that, guys. My troop went to a Cardinals baseball game and another scout and I got left behind when they left. That's right -- the adult dad at the game failed to do a head count and just left without us. I think he was probably into the Anheuser Busch products a bit much.

Anyway, an usher took us to a phone and I called my dad and he came and got us, but the cool part was we got to sit in the tunnel where the players exit, so we got tons of autographs. My friend and I would be elbowing each other and saying, "Look! It's Orlando Cepeda coming now!" That part was rather cool.

Still, how could an adult leave kids behind! Amazing!

[Brettmcd]

I was in scouting between cub and boy scouts until I was 18 and I have nothing but good memories about the experience. Camping 4-5 times a year, community service activities and all of that. If I had a child I would have no issues with him being in cub or boy scouts.

[Anders Hallin]

I can't imagine how awkward the jamborees must be when the Americans are around.

[Kolonial]

Still, how could an adult leave kids behind! Amazing!
My troop did that to a kid, at Disney World, a two-hour drive from home (Gainesville).

[Dufresne]

Not quite the same thing, because there's no scoutmaster and fathers take a more active role, but I was in a YMCA Indian Guides troop for a few years; I think from age 5 to 8. They're known as "Adventure Guides" now (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/119428_yguides26.html), and they're very prominent in the Pacific Northwest.

I always had a blast. My troop consisted of me and 8 or so of my friends, and our "pow-wows" would generally consist of a meeting for about an hour, then the nine of us would tear around the yard while the dads shot the shit and had a few beers. I do remember my "Indian name" was "Fighting Turtle." Yeah, guess what TV show I liked when I was five.

It wasn't particularly organized, although it had the potential to be. I remember the larger gatherings on Orcas Island having tons of "tribes," some of whom had uniforms and everything. It's really just how serious you and the other dads want it to be. I think the YMCA would send you a kit or something if you wanted to start a new troop with other families in your area.

[Omniscia]

I was a Cub Scout for two years. I liked it well enough, especially in my first year, but in my second year, the Scout Master spent most of our meetings threatening to tape her kids' mouths shut and throw them down the stairs if they kept interrupting.

Plus, they didn't tell me about the Space Derby, and I only discovered it while it was in session, when I walked by the school library on the way back from a book club meeting.

So, after a year spent enduring a psychotic bitch of a den mother, I dropped out.

[ydejin]

I'm not sure what it's like in Honduras, but for the most part international boy scout units don't seem to have that much in common in with the motherland's.

Wouldn't the motherland for scouting actually be England? My understanding is that the Boy Scouts were originally created to instill the ideals of the British Empire in young boys.

[TimElhajj]

Still, how could an adult leave kids behind! Amazing!

My dad and mom left my little brother behind in a grocery store cart one time. A dude came tearing after us flashing his lights and blowing his horn and my dad pulled over and jumped out of the car like he was going to fight. All my brothers and sisters were looking out the window whispering to one another that dad was going to kick that guy's ass. But then dad talked to him for a few seconds and came running back to the station wagon, fired it up, and did a big U-turn. He said, "We left someone behind!" And then we all started looking around, and we noticed my little brother Ted wasn't in the car. We came back and there was Ted, sitting in the little cart seat crying his head off.

[JM]

Do you guys have Cadets? They do in us commonwealth countries and although they are for older kids, usually, they can be a great alternative.

Here in NZ I went to Sea Scouts (one does cubs until about 11 or 12, I forget, then scouts). It was fun, we mucked about on boats and went on coastal holidays with them, etc etc.

Seconding this - I loved my time in the Army Cadets.

[Jon Rowe]

I am an eagle scout, and I would say that Boy Scouts was one of the most rewarding experiences I have had in my life. Not only did I have fun camping and hiking, but I also learned tons and tons of important life skills doing merit badges.

It is so alarming to me when I meet people who don't know how to do some basic stuff.

Seriously though, it varies extremely from troop to troop. Our troop was very inclusive and tolerant. There was very little religion mentioned in our group.

From what I have read, as you move further west into Mormon country the groups become more and more religious.

Additionally, if you are worried about pedophilia? That is just stupid. Most of the troops are made up of parents and father volunteers. If you are so worried about your kid, volunteer with the troop and come to the meetings. Go kayaking together, camping, hiking.

While I don't agree with many of their intolerant policies, they never came up in our troop, and if it bothers you that much volunteer and try to make a difference from within.

Read about Lord Baden Powell, the "father" of scouting.

Choice Quotes


If you make listening and observation your occupation you will gain much more than you can by talk.


We never fail when we try to do our duty, we always fail when we neglect to do it.


The most worth-while thing is to try to put happiness into the lives of others.


“The sport in Scouting is to find the good in every boy and develop it.”


“In all of this, it is the spirit that matters. Our Scout law and Promise, when we really put them into practice, take away all occasion for wars and strife among nations.”


No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way.

Last Words:

Leave this world a little better than you found it.

You couldn't find a less evil person if you tried. (Maybe Ghandi)

I absolutely hate the rep that the scouts gets from outsiders, and honestly, the U.S. management deserves every bit of it. They have done some stupid stuff, and stand next to a lot of principles that Powell would probably find abhorrent if he were alive today, but speaking from my own experience, not every troop is like what you hear about.

[Lizard_King]

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea what Baden-Powell's purpose in creating the Scouts was? It's not some top secret thing, it's right there in my 1989 or whatever edition of the book except it's written in nice language. It was a paramilitary organization designed to get poor young men outdoors doing some physical exercise and learning skills related to survival. Not because he had any particular affection, but because he thought Britain would need them in the coming war, because you can't have your cannon fodder weezing and gasping up the hill. By now the act of dressing up such intentions in morality plays should be old hat.

Now, that doesn't mean Scouts haven't done good things for people. But you need to be realistic about B-P and the original design of the organization.

[Mike O'Malley]

I went all the way through the Scouting program as well. It was a blast. My pack/troop had practically no religious overtones. We were focused almost entirely on the outdoors and community service.

Never had any qualms about any adults present and the friends I made are still close friends today. I don't regret the time I spent, even with the opportunity cost of actually spending time with girls.

OK, there was some hazing. And I got set on fire once. But hey, stuff happens. My son's a Cub Scout now and, assuming he stays interested, I look forward to him getting his Eagle. The organization feels less tolerant than it used to be and some of the adult leader training is mildly insulting, but the program is ultimately what you as an adult make of it. If I stay engaged, I can make sure that he has a positive experience and steer clear of whatever homophobic, racist or religious influences creep up.

[Jon Rowe]

Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea what Baden-Powell's purpose in creating the Scouts was? It's not some top secret thing, it's right there in my 1989 or whatever edition of the book except it's written in nice language. It was a paramilitary organization designed to get poor young men outdoors doing some physical exercise and learning skills related to survival. Not because he had any particular affection, but because he thought Britain would need them in the coming war, because you can't have your cannon fodder weezing and gasping up the hill. By now the act of dressing up such intentions in morality plays should be old hat.

Now, that doesn't mean Scouts haven't done good things for people. But you need to be realistic about B-P and the original design of the organization.

Not only is this an extreme exaggeration, but it is bombastic, irrelevant, and completely off the point.

The first group he got together was used for this point, but later on, he re-tooled the book to a more youth focused book that included many of the native american themed teachings from Seton's book. Woodcraft Indians (or something similar)

Calling scouting a paramilitary organization could be nothing further from the truth. It was more of using military stylings of patrols, uniforms, leaderships and ranks as a method for teaching young boys leadership, companionship and important life skills.

Read a bit about the first book (which was transformed from his military manuals)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_for_Boys

[Lizard_King]

Not only is this an extreme exaggeration, but it is bombastic, irrelevant, and completely off the point.
I just wanted to highlight this for a moment and celebrate it. How is this off the point? You disagree with it because it violates...something that you obviously can't articulate well, but that's not the same thing.



The first group he got together was used for this point, but later on, he re-tooled the book to a more youth focused book that included many of the native american themed teachings from Seton's book. Woodcraft Indians (or something similar)

There is some dissent between his hagiographies and biographies around to what extent he was primarily focused on his duty to Britain's military with the scouts' founding, but few credible sources that I've seen that seek to deny it altogether (sorry BSA, you're disqualified because your history relies on omission these days). If you look at older scout manuals they emphasize the utility of x skill in war situations quite a bit, because they were all adapted from his original very military manual.

Besides, there's nothing particularly wrong with B-P's goal, given the context of his time. However, there is something wrong with trying to retcon him into the modern breed of scouting ideal, which is the sort of crap you describe. He was a military strategist first and foremost, and it took him a while to break the habit. Specifically, it took the meat grinder of WWI, after which he may genuinely have changed his views as he claimed as his approach to Scouting became strongly internationalist and much less focused on the other stuff.

Calling scouting a paramilitary organization could be nothing further from the truth. It was more of using military stylings of patrols, uniforms, leaderships and ranks as a method for teaching young boys leadership, companionship and important life skills.
Pure coincidence, right? The context and the uniforms and the nationalism were all just there by accident? I don't think you know what paramilitary means in this context; by no stretch of the imagination am I suggesting that anything other than getting draftees to better than 2/9 meeting military standards. He wasn't training future officers, necessarily, those already got their outdoors time.

So other than the uniforms, the discipline, the fitness, the patrol training, the survival skills, the gun stuff, the nation worship/idolatry, even if it's an abstract view of a country that has never actually existed...what do you think it would take to make a paramilitary organization count in your view? Does the Michigan Militia count?

[Lizard_King]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_for_Boys


26 Our empire: Hints to instructors, Our empire, How our empire grew, how the empire must be held, Hints to instructors, Books to read, Display
27 Citizenship: Scout's duty as a citizen, Duties as citizen-soldier, Marksmanship, Helping police, Hints to instructors, Games, Books to read
28 United we stand, divided we fall: Hints to instructors, Our Navy and Army, Our flag, Our government, Our King, Books to read

How about you read it, before you link it? I bet those hints to instructors are all a bunch of Gandhi quotes that time traveled. And don't get me started on Gandhi, either.

[Raife]

My dad and mom left my little brother behind in a grocery store cart one time. A dude came tearing after us flashing his lights and blowing his horn and my dad pulled over and jumped out of the car like he was going to fight. All my brothers and sisters were looking out the window whispering to one another that dad was going to kick that guy's ass. But then dad talked to him for a few seconds and came running back to the station wagon, fired it up, and did a big U-turn. He said, "We left someone behind!" And then we all started looking around, and we noticed my little brother Ted wasn't in the car. We came back and there was Ted, sitting in the little cart seat crying his head off.

This explains so much about Timmy.

[TimElhajj]

This explains so much about Timmy.

If I got left behind, I would have just thumbed a ride home.

[Sarkus]

I had a lot of fun in the Boy Scouts and that was even in Montana, where you would have expected the right wingers to be in charge. Wasn't the case, though, which just goes to prove that it really depends on who is running the show. And in most troops that's a scoutmaster, not the national organization. I learned a lot and we never talked about guns or religion. There was a seperate mormon troop in the area, though.

It's like anything else you might want your kids to get involved in, though. As a parent you need to figure out if the person running the show is someone you feel comfortable with.

[Adree]

It's like anything else you might want your kids to get involved in, though. As a parent you need to figure out if the person running the show is someone you feel comfortable with.


http://i55.tinypic.com/34yto2q.png

[Mark Asher]

My dad and mom left my little brother behind in a grocery store cart one time. A dude came tearing after us flashing his lights and blowing his horn and my dad pulled over and jumped out of the car like he was going to fight. All my brothers and sisters were looking out the window whispering to one another that dad was going to kick that guy's ass. But then dad talked to him for a few seconds and came running back to the station wagon, fired it up, and did a big U-turn. He said, "We left someone behind!" And then we all started looking around, and we noticed my little brother Ted wasn't in the car. We came back and there was Ted, sitting in the little cart seat crying his head off.

Ha ha -- that is classic. I see the film version starring Darren McGavin as your dad.

So how many of there were you? You mention brothers and sisters in the plural.

[bluemax]

So according to Bullshit, the BSA was co-opted by the Mormons in the 80's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5I01DF0g1w&feature=related), leading to their anti-atheist, anti-gay, anti-agnostic policy.

Yes, take it with a grain of salt.

That said, I was a Boy Scout in the 80's before I was an atheist, but I wouldn't go near the organization nowadays.

I went through the Mormonified version of the Boy Scouts in the 90s.

My experience was basically that it was as good/enjoyable as whoever the leader was. Some of the leaders I had really enjoyed the outdoors/camping etc (I grew up in Washington State), while others used it as a chance to lecture us with lessons that weren't that distanced from our Sunday School ones. By the time I was about 15 or so I was basically done with organized scouting, not because I completed everything but because I felt it had no more to offer me, that and my general disinterest in the LDS Church at this point.

Having gone through some of the leadership programs both as a youth, and as an adult (well as much of an adult as a 22 year old is) I don't think Scouting, whether done by the Mormons or not, is inherently a sinister program. I do think there are a lot of poorly trained and poorly screened leaders in the program however.

[Lynch]

http://www.infowars.com/images/scout-gestapo.jpg

Boy scouts.

[Cosmic Hippo]

There are alternatives to boy scouts to put your kids in - I myself was in 4-H (http://www.4-h.org/) as a kid, and learned all the outdoorsy stuff at a 4-H away camp. It's co-ed and non-religious! It's usually done through State Universities and mine at least was centered around being responsible to the environment; 4-H was into the green movement before it was cool, man!

[Lizard_King]

http://www.infowars.com/images/scout-gestapo.jpg

Boy scouts.

To be fair, the biggest problem with that picture is that someone let them stack without muzzle awareness.

[RepoMan]

Thanks everyone. Very interesting, I'll certainly check out Campfire etc. Also it looks like the Unitarians are trying to make nice (http://uuscouters.org/).

I forgot to mention that I was actually a Boy Scout myself for a while. I was too nerdy though, and also too smart. Once we were in the woods and the other kids were trying to light a campfire and there was a shit-ton of smoke coming out. Having lit a lot of fires in our fireplace at home, I knew that if you just put a piece of burning paper near the smoke at the base of the fire, it would go FWOOMP and presto, major flame. So I was all like "Just light the smoke!!!" and they were like "stfu n00b." That pretty much showed me they didn't give a shit about actually learning anything.

[kerzain]

I always wanted to join the Boy Souts, but my mom would only let me be in Awana (way back before they started wearing glorified Wal-Mart uniforms).

[Dan_Theman]

Good luck in your search. My brothers enjoyed the Y Indian Guides, though the organization is, I think, disbanded due to the racism inherent in some of its portrayals of Native Americans. Just a clarification, here: The Indian Guides changed names and evolved substantially, but still essentially exist as the YMCA/"Y" Adventure Guides/Trailblazers (although some groups branched out independently to team up with the Native Sons and Daughters Program).

Edit - I used to be in scouting. I went to Jamborees and Klondikes (my troop even won a couple when I was there). I never saw or heard of any inappropriate relationships between scoutmasters and kids. That said, I did get significantly hazed by the kids (seemed to be the case with everyone). Belief in God was technically incorporated, but it was pretty much just a "Do you think you might possibly classify yourself as Agnostic? That's good enough" approach that was used.

My kid is a rather gentle soul, and I figured going through something like that hazing and what-not wouldn't be the best experience and so I kept him out. I still question my decision to this day, but he seems pretty well adjusted ... of course he probably can't tie a bowline knot for the life of him, lol.

[wahoo]

That said, I did get significantly hazed by the kids (seemed to be the case with everyone).

My first year or 2 was tough b/c of the hazing. It was still fun but the hazing made it tougher to enjoy. I'd say all scout troop have some form of hazing with some of it being benign amusing (snipe hunts, left handed smoke shifter) to the mean and harmful. If you're the latter troop, shop around. But I'd venture that most activities with pre-teen and then teen-age boys with limited adult supervision has some hazing rituals and not all of them harmful.

Boy Scouts was tremendous for me, especially having a single mom during those years. The BSA has some tremendous resources that no one else has. If your kid likes the outdoors, then the opportunity to hike at Philmont is a thrill of a lifetime. Over twenty years later, I have great vivid memories of that experience. There are similar nautical and other high adventure sites that good Boy Scout council and troops will do.

Your experience is definitely impacted by your troop. We had a troop that focused on self-sufficiency with monthly campouts. Being a patrol leader that has to budget, buy and arrange for the prep/cleaning of meals is an eye-opening experience for young men. (Hint: while we love sloppy joes, trying to eat them half through a 20 mile hike is a terrible idea.)

[ceolstan]

A few things.

1. Locally, the Y's youth organization, Adventure Guides, is very popular. We're a fairly liberal part of the Bible Belt USA, and the anti-gay stance of the national Boy Scouts organization caused deep divisions in the local scouting chapter. Parents looked for alternatives. The local Y benefitted. Thanks for letting me know that Indian Guides are still alive and well as Adventure Guides.

2. 4-H is incredibly popular. Thanks for reminding me about it. We have a lot of farming area around us, but a surprising amount of the local university brats belong to 4-H, where they learn about animals, alfalfa, and technology. It's not just about agriculture anymore.

3. Cadets totally rock! While I'm American, I did A levels in England. While the Army cadets weren't terribly interesting to me, the RAC cadets were really cool. I wanted to join so that I, too, could jump out of airplanes!!!! At the time, I was a bit concerned about citizenship requirements. Oh, and the cadets had a way cool obstacle course with rope bridges, logs, and EVERYTHING. Also, they even had uniforms (though at the time, girls had to wear skirts--US Armed Forces were so far ahead in terms of gender equity at that time). One appeal of the RAC cadets was that they had more things that girls did.

--ceolstan

[TimElhajj]

Ha ha -- that is classic. I see the film version starring Darren McGavin as your dad.

So how many of there were you? You mention brothers and sisters in the plural.


Ha, ha. Good pick. He was "you'll shoot your eye out" guy, right?

There were seven of us. When that happened, I think there may have only been six of us. All of us are about two years apart, except for me and my younger sister who were born at opposite ends of the same year.

Elhajj trivia: all the names of kids in our family started with the letter T. I think this must have been a 60s thing. My wife's family is the same way, but they (had fewer kids and) went with the letter H.

[Houngan]

Boy Scouts are very much like the Catholic Church, pedophilia comparisons aside. Great at the tribe level, iffy at the regional level, pretty nasty at the worldwide level. Kids learning things is always a good idea, especially when those things are real and not just reciting some idiotic creed over and over (Hi Jews! And Catholics! And religion in general!) though the Scouts have some of that as well.

[Dan_Theman]

... and not just reciting some idiotic creed over and over ...(Pledge of Allegiance, I now pronounce you husband and wife, I agree to and understand the terms I have just read, etc.) ;)

[John Many Jars]

I learned a lot of valuable things in Scouts, including how to know when bullies are bluffing, how to identify and manage psychos, how to blunt the edge of anxiety, how to defy nutty old men without getting in trouble, how to manipulate other kids into helping me do things I had to do (aka "leadership"), etc. Also knives.

[Anaxagoras]

While I don't agree with many of their intolerant policies, they never came up in our troop, and if it bothers you that much volunteer and try to make a difference from within.


"I don't like the KKK's attitude towards blacks, but they never came up in my clan. So it didn't really bother me."

Alternately,

"I disapproved of the KKK's attitude towards blacks, so I volunteered in their clan's bake sale in the hope that I could convince them that there is such a thing as a good black person."

Are you for real? Is this honestly your response to an organization that explicitly advocated intolerance & a rigid right-wing moral code? Jesus dude. You are a true boy scout.

[Timex]

"I don't like the KKK's attitude towards blacks, but they never came up in my clan. So it didn't really bother me."
But that wouldn't happen, because the clan is actually founded on racist ideas.

[Anaxagoras]

I went all the way through the Scouting program as well. It was a blast. My pack/troop had practically no religious overtones. We were focused almost entirely on the outdoors and community service.

Never had any qualms about any adults present and the friends I made are still close friends today. I don't regret the time I spent, even with the opportunity cost of actually spending time with girls.

OK, there was some hazing. And I got set on fire once. But hey, stuff happens. My son's a Cub Scout now and, assuming he stays interested, I look forward to him getting his Eagle. The organization feels less tolerant than it used to be and some of the adult leader training is mildly insulting, but the program is ultimately what you as an adult make of it. If I stay engaged, I can make sure that he has a positive experience and steer clear of whatever homophobic, racist or religious influences creep up.

By the way, there's a huge difference between this post "I had fun & avoided the bad stuff" vs. Jon's "There's nothing wrong with scouting! They're awesome!" No, the organization is not awesome. They're kinda disgusting. On the other hand, many of the individuals within the organization are awesome, and some troops have a lot of fun. But to defend scouting as an institution is absurd, unless you actually agree with their stated (and publically defended) intolerance.

[Anaxagoras]

But that wouldn't happen, because the clan is actually founded on racist ideas.

But if it did happen (My clan is more about dressing up in cool outfits) then Jon wouldn't have a problem with the clan overall anymore.

[Timex]

But then it wouldn't be the fundamentally racist institution that it is. So it wouldn't actually be the kkk. So why should he have a problem with them?

[Anaxagoras]

But then it wouldn't be the fundamentally racist institution that it is. So it wouldn't actually be the kkk. So why should he have a problem with them?

Absolutely. It's just a few bad apples burning those crosses. And the fact that the umbrella organization refuses to denounce those bad apples (and in fact publically defends them) is just a bizarre mix-up. It in no way reflects upon the organization.

[Timex]

But you're not talking about the KKK now.. you're talking about some fictitious organization.

Comparing the Boy Scouts to the KKK is kind of crazy. You midaswell just compare them to the Nazis and get it over with.

[Anaxagoras]

But you're not talking about the KKK now.. you're talking about some fictitious organization.

Comparing the Boy Scouts to the KKK is kind of crazy. You midaswell just compare them to the Nazis and get it over with.

So I disprove your stupid point, and you fall back on "How dare you compare them to the KKK? They're not that bad!!!"

Brilliant. And you're right... they're not that bad. But then again, I never said they were. In fact, I explicitly said that there are many wonderful people in the Boy Scouts, while I would never say the same for the KKK. Nevertheless, the point that I was illustrating is valid. The Boy Scout Organization is tainted with intolerance from the top down, and the fact there are good people in it doesn't change that. That intolerance permeates their literature and their manuals, although many of their better members look past it or reinterpretate it because they like the other people in their troop.

[JM]

the RAC cadets were really cool. I wanted to join so that I, too, could jump out of airplanes!!!!

And presumably replace tyres as well.

[Timex]

So I disprove your stupid point, and you fall back on "How dare you compare them to the KKK? They're not that bad!!!"
You didn't disprove any point. You compared them to a fictitious organization, whom you named the KKK, and then presumed to assign judgement to the fictitious organization based on the actions of the real KKK, whom you specifically described as being different.

See, the problem with what you were saying can be summarized in the following bullet points:
1) You compared the scouts to the KKK, drawing an analogy with the KKK as a racist organization.
2) It was pointed out that the KKK was actually an entire organization BASED ON racism, and was not simply a normal organization which contained racist members.
3) You then suggesteed "what if the KKK wasn't fundamentally based upon racism?"

At that point, they're not the KKK. You have removed the signature aspect of their existence as a racist group. You're just using the word, KKK, for its loaded meaning, despite the fact that you've now totally redefined it to be something else. Which is why, at that point, it doesn't matter if something is like the redefined term you've created. The KKK you've described at that point isn't anything good or bad. It's just an empty word with no reality to back it up.

This is why I said, "Why don't you just call them Nazis," because you could do the same thing... Just redefine Nazis to mean something other then a genocidal movement bent on world domination, and then you can make a fair comparison maybe.

Like... "What if the Nazis were a group of people who wore brown uniforms and practiced outdoors survival skills? OMG THE BOY SCOUTS ARE JUST LIKE THE NAZIS!"


The Boy Scout Organization is tainted with intolerance from the top down, and the fact there are good people in it doesn't change that. That intolerance permeates their literature and their manuals, although many of their better members look past it or reinterpretate it because they like the other people in their troop.
Have you ever actually been involved in the boy scouts?

Because I think you're pretty much blowing the permeation of intolerance a lot here.

[John Many Jars]

The KKK took my baby away

[Dean]

Edit - I used to be in scouting. I went to Jamborees and Klondikes (my troop even won a couple when I was there). I never saw or heard of any inappropriate relationships between scoutmasters and kids. That said, I did get significantly hazed by the kids (seemed to be the case with everyone). Belief in God was technically incorporated, but it was pretty much just a "Do you think you might possibly classify yourself as Agnostic? That's good enough" approach that was used.


My first year or 2 was tough b/c of the hazing. It was still fun but the hazing made it tougher to enjoy.

Just to jump in the pigpile here, I was a cub scout, webelo, and eventually an Eagle Scout. Our troop had "initiations" which for me included being tied down and whipped with a knotted rope. Other kids were taped up like a mummy and left to wander with an "I'm gay" sign hung around their neck, or they'd get in their sleeping bag only to find it full of daddy-longleggers, or other such hijinks.

I'm sad to say, that as I got older, I participated in the hazing and even masterminded some of them.

So hazing was a part of the BSA, and that included "official" stuff like the initiation weekend for Order of the Arrow. We were allowed to take a ground cloth, our sleeping bags, and a knife. We were led down a path in the woods sometime around 10 or 11 o'clock at night and each of us was tapped and told to take ten paces to the left or right of the path and sleep the night. That wouldn't seem like hazing, but our night it rained, hard, all night. Some kids wound up in ditches. I'm sure it wasn't safe or particularly well supervised.

But the truth is, we all thought it was epic. The hazing stories were used to scare the new kids, and everyone wanted to get into OotA not because the organization was anything in particular, but we wanted to do the initiation weekend to see if the adults really made the kids do all the stuff we had heard. And yeah, they did.

As for pedophilia, aside from the usual slurs, I only remember one time when a kid told me I didn't want to go near one of the troops at camp. That he had heard the older kids made the younger kids "do stuff" and that the Scoutmaster knew about it and didn't do anything.

And that's part of the structure of how Boy Scout summer camp worked. You didn't send your kid to camp, the whole troop went to camp as a unit, and the local adults were the supervisors of their campground. Camp staff manned various areas, like the Orienteering Cabin, Arts and Crafts, or the Ecology/Conservation Lodge. The camp staff provided evening activities in the early evening, but then each troop went back to their camp area and had their own campfires and activities. So if you had a Scoutmaster who was a pedo, he was in charge of you 24/7 while at summer camp.

[Anaxagoras]

See, the problem with what you were saying can be summarized in the following bullet points:
1) You compared the scouts to the KKK, drawing an analogy with the KKK as a racist organization.
2) It was pointed out that the KKK was actually an entire organization BASED ON racism, and was not simply a normal organization which contained racist members.
3) You then suggesteed "what if the KKK wasn't fundamentally based upon racism?"

The Boy Scouts is an organization that is, at its heart, designed to instill certain values in boys. The values that they tout the loudest are leadership, honor, etc. etc. But it's fair to look at all the values they instill. What is meant by leadership? By honor? You look at the example they give. Apparently, these values include some distasteful things suich as intolerance.

Are you up to speed now?


This is why I said, "Why don't you just call them Nazis," because you could do the same thing... Just redefine Nazis to mean something other then a genocidal movement bent on world domination, and then you can make a fair comparison maybe.
No.. you said "why don't you just call them Nazis" because that's the fall-back position of Internet idiots everywhere who don't understand what's being argued and are just name calling.


Have you ever actually been involved in the boy scouts?
Yes, I have. I left after a year after their psuedo-military uniforms and ranks got on my nerves, after I read one too many of their values that I disagreed with, (in their official printed literature) and after I realized that I had better things to do with my time than learn about their version of "leadership" and "honor".


Because I think you're pretty much blowing the permeation of intolerance a lot here.
Thanks for your opinion. But it's pretty clear it's not worth much.

[Dan_Theman]

You look at the example they give. Apparently, these values include some distasteful things suich as intolerance. ... I read one too many of their values that I disagreed with, (in their official printed literature) ...I hate to ask because it's obviously a painful memory for you, but what were these examples? I had to read the BSA handbook backwards and forwards, and I don't think I came across anything that was out of the ordinary with any other codification of a moral code besides their need to affirm a belief in God. Mind you, that was back in the 70's and early 80's so things may very well have changed.

[Timex]

The Boy Scouts is an organization that is, at its heart, designed to instill certain values in boys. The values that they tout the loudest are leadership, honor, etc. etc. But it's fair to look at all the values they instill. What is meant by leadership? By honor? You look at the example they give. Apparently, these values include some distasteful things suich as intolerance.
Could you provide examples where teaching honor and leadership actually translate into intolerance?

I'm curious as to the specific experiences which obviously made you hate the boyscouts. I'm not looking to invalidate them, as much as just understand what experiences you're talking about.

I was only in the cubscouts when I was a kid, and never really liked the whole formal organization of things. I prefered more free-form crap like fishing and hiking around in the woods. But I never actually started to hate the boyscouts as a result. But it sounds like you had more experience with the scouts than I did, so I'm interested in hearing about your specific experiences which shaped your views of them.


No.. you said "why don't you just call them Nazis" because that's the fall-back position of Internet idiots everywhere who don't understand what's being argued and are just name calling.
I explained the reasoning behind the statement, and it wasn't simply a fallback position. It was a direct analog to you comparing them to the KKK.

And honestly, if you're going to compare them to the KKK, I don't see why you don't just compare them to the Nazis. Both are over-the-top archetypes of evil stuff, so I'm not sure why you decided to draw the line at the KKK, other than realizing that the Nazi comparison would be even more absurd.

[kerzain]

The thread is like a parody of everything wrong with internet debates.

[Timex]

Ya, you're right. I'm sorry Anaxagoras. Don't worry about the whole argument about the argument, I'll just cede that part of it. I'm more interested in hearing about your actual experiences with the boy scouts to learn about why folks develop such a dislike for them, as they always seemed pretty non-threatening to me. (of course I'm a white, non-gay guy)

[Flowers]

I was in cub scouts for a little while but I quit because I am such a badass. While I was there, nobody mentioned God. It was all about the United States, and our head honcho was a chemical engineer, so all our big meetings were lessons about space or a chance to meet the guy who drew "Dial H for Hero." Also, the Den Mothers did everything, the only thing the men did was stand in the back at big meetings and judge the Pinewood Derby.

So I can testify as to the culture of scouting for a period of three months in the nineteen eighties as it existed in a central Wisconsin mill town.

[Telefrog]

Also, the Den Mothers did everything, the only thing the men did was stand in the back at big meetings and judge the Pinewood Derby.

This is how I remember it back in the 70's and 80's in Sierra Vista, AZ and Sacramento, CA. The Den Mothers did everything up until the actual Boy Scouts at which point the dads took over.

Cub Scouts was a lot of crafts, eating cookies and cupcakes, pizza parties and fudging the merit patch requirements. Really, it was just organized babysitting between moms. I remember it as being a lot of fun.

Webelos was okay, but the fun was a bit harder to get at because the folks in charge actually expected scouting type stuff.

I only lasted a year as a Boy Scout and my participation was lackadaisical at best. One day, I just realized that Boy Scouts had a lot less to do with sleepovers and backyard camping and more to do with actual community work and religious/moral teachings than I wanted. Oh, and sex with girls was pretty awesome, and Boy Scouts most definitely did not get any so that was a pretty big factor in my decision to stop attending meetings.

Before I left, I do remember thinking that I really hated how religion had become so focal to Scouting.

Now? Yeah, I'd let my kid be a Cub Scout if he wanted as long as I see that the focus was still on eating cake, goofing off, and sometimes putting together a poorly made slot car.

[salwon]

The KKK took my baby away

They took her away? Away from you?

[John Many Jars]

They took her away? Away from you?

They took her from me
They took her from me
I don't know
Where my baby can be

[TimElhajj]

putting together a poorly made slot car.

This is what killed it for me. The dads who had been involved with scouts in the past came in with souped up badass rollers. One dad was like, NO BODY IS BEATING US. I had a little old poopy car and boogered up hands. I told my son we should forget the cubscouts and just get a WII. He was like "oh, yeah!"

[kerzain]

This is what killed it for me. The dads who had been involved with scouts in the past came in with souped up badass rollers. One dad was like, NO BODY IS BEATING US. I had a little old poopy car and boogered up hands. I told my son we should forget the cubscouts and just get a WII. He was like "oh, yeah!"
There's a whole Southpark episode (I think perhaps even two) about the slot car thing.

[blackmox]

A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

Pure evil. We wouldn't want those kind of people around at all.

[Anders Hallin]

Sounds like total sociopaths to me. I'm only partly kidding.

[John Many Jars]

One old guy got up in front of our meeting and asked us what the most important point of the Scout Law was. We didn't know. He explained it was "reverent," because that includes all the others. We were nonplussed.

Thinking about it all these years later, my reaction is, "'Reverent' includes 'thrifty'?"

Also, "cheerful" always struck me as an odd thing to prescribe. Why should I be cheerful? You don't know what situation I'm in.

[bluemax]

A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

Pure evil. We wouldn't want those kind of people around at all.

You forgot the thirteenth:

And hungry at all times, OM NOM NOM.

[Calistas]

Advice to scout leaders (http://gizmodo.com/5654061/how-do-you-teach-boy-scouts-about-downloading-music-pretend-it-doesnt-exist) about downloading music and the trouble that bands like Radiohead and free online newspapers bring.

[Telefrog]

I'll go with evil.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/05/162371701/teenage-boy-scout-denied-organizations-top-rank-because-hes-gay?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20121005

Also, I change my answer on post 74. Fuck the Scouts.

[Timex]

I don't understand why a gay person would even want to be a member of the scouts.

I mean, sure... they're being dicks to this kid, but on some level I also gotta wonder... Why did the kid want to be a member of a group that has publicly stated that it's gonna be a dick to him?

It's not an excuse for them being dicks, it just seems strange to me. If some organization hated me for some intrinsic facet of my existence, I can't imagine ever wanting to join that group and attain its highest rank.

[John Many Jars]

Letting him finish all the requirements for Eagle and then not giving it to him is pretty low.

[Tin Wisdom]

Ryan Andresen spent 12 years as a Boy Scout. Now that he's 17 and about to graduate from high school, he completed the final requirement to receive the Eagle Scout award, which signifies the highest rank in the organization.
He got into scouting at five years of age. I imagine that most kids are introduced to scouting by their parents and are not given much choice in the matter.

So he was involved in scouting long before the idea of romantic attraction to anyone had taken hold, and he was working his way up through the ranks for many years before he realized he was gay. At that point he had made it a big part of his life and wanted to continue with the organization. It's also implied that his local scout leader knew and accepted his orientation, so I suspect is wasn't that big a deal at the local level.

[Fugitive]

I don't understand why a gay person would even want to be a member of the scouts.

I mean, sure... they're being dicks to this kid, but on some level I also gotta wonder... Why did the kid want to be a member of a group that has publicly stated that it's gonna be a dick to him?

It's not an excuse for them being dicks, it just seems strange to me. If some organization hated me for some intrinsic facet of my existence, I can't imagine ever wanting to join that group and attain its highest rank.

I would imagine that a lot of kids join when they're fairly young (I remember being in the Cub Scouts up here when I was 8 or 9), before any of this is even an issue to them, and often at the encouragement of their parents. As puberty hits and they start finding their sexual identity solidifying, they're now faced with a dilemma: is it my feelings that are wrong, or is it the organization that's wrong? Nobody's going to think "Welp, I've fully realized I'm gay and the Boy Scouts are opposed to that, so I guess I'd better just pack up and leave."

[Scuzz]

I grew up doing the Cub Scouts (my mom was den mother) and Boy Scouts. I finally quit at about 16-17 (same time as I quit going to church I think) when I just stopped enjoying it. But for many years I loved the weekend trips and once you figured it out, the pine wood derby.

One thing I learned about scouting was that every troop was different. Some troops did stuff all the time, others, like mine, not so much. It seemed like the Eagle scouts always came out of the church sponsored troops as they would always have the most parental involvement.

Scouting should always be about the kids, and many of scoutings recent problems have demonstrated some dysfunctional leadership which detracts from that.

[Houngan]

I don't understand why a gay person would even want to be a member of the scouts.

I mean, sure... they're being dicks to this kid, but on some level I also gotta wonder... Why did the kid want to be a member of a group that has publicly stated that it's gonna be a dick to him?

It's not an excuse for them being dicks, it just seems strange to me. If some organization hated me for some intrinsic facet of my existence, I can't imagine ever wanting to join that group and attain its highest rank.

Only game in town. It's the casual prejudice of the majority, if you're white, male, straight, and Christian then it's pretty hard to have much perspective.

[Timex]

I guess that makes sense.. that he joined well before sexuality became an issue.

Still seems weird. I guess I just figure that if I were gay that I wouldn't want anything to do with the boyscouts.

The "only game in town" thing is interesting too... Why hasn't anyone else bothered to create a boyscouts thing which doesn't exclude gay people?

Bear in mind, I'm speaking from someone who was only a cubscout for a year or two, found it boring, and never bothered going any further.. so I'm obviously missing some major perspective regarding the importance of being a scout to folks who dedicate so much time to it.

[Scuzz]

I guess that makes sense.. that he joined well before sexuality became an issue.

Still seems weird. I guess I just figure that if I were gay that I wouldn't want anything to do with the boyscouts.

The "only game in town" thing is interesting too... Why hasn't anyone else bothered to create a boyscouts thing which doesn't exclude gay people?

Bear in mind, I'm speaking from someone who was only a cubscout for a year or two, found it boring, and never bothered going any further.. so I'm obviously missing some major perspective regarding the importance of being a scout to folks who dedicate so much time to it.

I know a kid who a couple years ago was following girls around the neighborhood acting pretty "normal", so to speak. Now he has come out and let his family know he was gay. I don't know the process of deciding/finding out when you are gay but I think for many it isn't a lightening bolt type thing.

As for a competing group to the scouts. Pretty tough to do. For one, I would venture that in many areas scouts are a dying thing anyway. Secondly, it takes a lot of volunteer parents to run a good organization and I wonder how many parents would abandon the one to form the second.

[Houngan]

The "only game in town" thing is interesting too... Why hasn't anyone else bothered to create a boyscouts thing which doesn't exclude gay people?



Keep in mind that these are kids when they start, their interest is about 95% "being with my friends" and 5% "things scouts do." If all of your friends are in Scouts, then you want to be in Scouts. Since Scouts is the biggest group and only excludes minorities, it will always have the most kids in it, and thus be the most attractive for all kids. Later on when they are grinding badges and are in it for the competition/achievement, it's a simple major/minor league calculation. If I'm going to bust my ass to rise to the top of an organization, I'm going to choose the most recognized one.

[Timex]

Seems crappy.

I wonder who made the call to not give him his rank.. sounds like the scoutmaster himself was pretty cool with it (since he didn't kick him out), but then they ended up not giving him the final thing?

If the scoutmaster was secretly not cool with it, and planned to just not give him the rank, then THAT is most definitely pretty evil.

[Scuzz]

Does FFA (Future Farmers of America) have any religious over/under tones to it? I know it is a youth group mainly in rural areas but I don't know anything about what it actually teaches, besides animal husbandry.

[Scuzz]

Seems crappy.

I wonder who made the call to not give him his rank.. sounds like the scoutmaster himself was pretty cool with it (since he didn't kick him out), but then they ended up not giving him the final thing?

If the scoutmaster was secretly not cool with it, and planned to just not give him the rank, then THAT is most definitely pretty evil.

I don't know about his specific case but the Eagle Badge requires approval from on high, whether that be national, state or district I don't remember.

[Timex]

Seems like that kind of move just ends up tainting the rank for everyone else... Like, the other folks in his troop. Assuming they didn't all hate him, it seems like at least some of them are gonna be thinking about how they are members of a group that was terrible to their friend.

[Scuzz]

Based on my experiences with my daughters (19 and 22) I would imagine most kids in scouts (except for perhaps troops sponsored by religious groups) would have no problem with a gay being in scouts and would have trouble understanding why he is being persecuted against.

[Djscman]

That news article infuriated me. After sharing it and venting on Facebook, a friend linked this to me: http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/

I think my Eagle patch wound up with an ex-girlfriend, but if I found it, I think I'll send it back, following the good examples of these men.

[Dan_Theman]

Does FFA (Future Farmers of America) have any religious over/under tones to it? I know it is a youth group mainly in rural areas but I don't know anything about what it actually teaches, besides animal husbandry.

Not that I can tell aside from the presumption that the majority of participants are much more likely to be practicing Christians than not simply due to demographics of those whose families are engaged in related activities. That likely means a more conservative outlook, if true. Oh, and it's all about agriculture and not just animal hubandry. Here's their creed:

I believe in the future of agriculture, with a faith born not of words but of deeds - achievements won by the present and past generations of agriculturists; in the promise of better days through better ways, even as the better things we now enjoy have come to us from the struggles of former years.
I believe that to live and work on a good farm or to be engaged in other agricultural pursuits, is pleasant as well as challenging; for I know the joys and discomforts of agricultural life and hold an inborn fondness for those associations which, even in hours of discouragement I cannot deny.
I believe in leadership from ourselves and respect from others. I believe in my own ability to work efficiently and think clearly, with such knowledge and skill as I can secure, and in the ability of progressive agriculturalists to serve our own and the public interest in producing and marketing the product of our toil.
I believe in less dependence on begging and more power in bargaining; in the life abundant and enough honest wealth to help make it so-for others as well as myself; in less need for charity and more of it when needed; in being happy myself and playing square with those whose happiness depends upon me.
I believe that American agriculture can and will hold true to the best traditions of our national life and that I can exert an influence in my home and community which will stand solid for my part in that inspiring task.

[Houngan]

'I believe in the comfortable wearing of blue corduroy, it is both stylish and makes a pleasant sound."

[Tin Wisdom]

Arise, ye thread of yore!

Boy Scouts consider lifting ban on gays. (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/us/boy-scouts-consider-lifting-ban-on-gay-leaders.html?_r=0)


“The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents,” said a spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, Deron Smith, in a statement. “This would mean there would no longer be any national policy regarding sexual orientation, and the chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs.”

Scout officials gave no timeline for making a formal decision, or for putting the policy into effect, but a spokeswoman said in an e-mail that discussion was anticipated at next week’s national executive board meeting. Board meetings are private and closed to the public and the news media, she said.

[Houngan]

Fuck 'em, they still exclude atheists.

[Telefrog]

The issue for me is that they're dropping the national policy, but still allowing local leaders to be bigoted fucks.

[Menzo]

The issue for me is that they're dropping the national policy, but still allowing local leaders to be bigoted fucks.

Yeah, this is just a PR move. It takes the heat off the Boy Scouts, but still allows them to discriminate because the decision will be made by a diffuse set of local groups.

But I guess it's a step in the right direction. Even if it is small.

[Walter Yarbrough]

Agreed on all points - dropping the policy is not the same as reversing the policy.

[Gus_Smedstad]

It takes the heat off the Boy Scouts, but still allows them to discriminate because the decision will be made by a diffuse set of local groups.
Fair point, it's a variant on the "States' Rights" approach to continuing discrimination.

[Tin Wisdom]

It takes the heat off the Boy Scouts, but still allows them to discriminate because the decision will be made by a diffuse set of local groups.
This is true, but it avoids the situation from a year or two back where that Eagle Scout was pretty much known to be gay by his local group (Club? Den? Pack? I never made it to Webalo) and his local leader, but got kicked out when it became known to the national leadership.

And yeah, it does suck that the individual groups still get to be as bigoted as they please.

[WarrenM]

Banning gays ... FFS. Stop living in the 50s.

[corsair]

They simply want to re-craft their mission statement so they are not overtly anti-gay, while allowing local chapters to be as anti-gay as they want to in the hopes that corporate sponsors will relent since they now have plausible deniability. An actual change of heart? I doubt it - it's all about giving the minimum to try and regain corporate sponsors.

[John Many Jars]

It's a step in the right direction. Purity of motive is too much to ask in this world.

[corsair]

It's a step in the right direction. Purity of motive is too much to ask in this world.

You're right that at lest it is a step in the right direction, however reluctant it may be. It's probably too much to expect purity of motive, though I don't think it is too much to ask.

[Cold Blooded]

You're right that at lest it is a step in the right direction, however reluctant it may be. It's probably too much to expect purity of motive, though I don't think it is too much to ask.

Would agree except that topic in question is Boy Scouts of America. Intended to be very model of fostering integrity in the nation's youth.

Organization's leadership needs to change its stance, or its leaders. Otherwise, issue will continue to paint group with increasingly negative light and ultimately diminish its overall relevance.

[Scuzz]

Would agree except that topic in question is Boy Scouts of America. Intended to be very model of fostering integrity in the nation's youth.

Organization's leadership needs to change its stance, or its leaders. Otherwise, issue will continue to paint group with increasingly negative light and ultimately diminish its overall relevance.

As an one time scout I would love to defend the Boy Scouts but I don't think it is possible in this instance. They are an old organization that is probably dieing out in many areas that refuses to admit the world has changed. I understand they have a "religious" base but as a scout in the 70's I never saw that.

I think they are a lot like the Catholic church (and others I am sure) in that they dug in their heals on social issues and have watched the world change while they have argued that things are the same.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Not surprisingly, Rick Perry and Rick Santorum feel (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/04/santorum-says-scouts-may-not-survive-if-gays-allowed/) that removing the ban will destroy the scouts.

So when I saw that the Boy Scouts of America executive board is convening on Wednesday to discuss abandoning the organization’s founding moral principles that nurture boys into men, I was saddened (http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/stop-the-war-on-scouts/#gqvR8JEPiL0myB3k.99), but not surprised.

[Timex]

I'm still always amused by Rick Santorum, just because when I was a little kid I met him in person when he was running for Senator. And I distinctly remember thinking, even as a little kid, "Wow, this guy seems like a tool."

[GatInDaHat]

The Scouts weren't pedos when i was a scout for about three months, just assholes. They ditched me after a scouting meeting and locked me, apparently unnoticed, in the pitch black church basement when i was 10. Hehe, yea, i got the hint.

they were observing you for potential. really, I was never in the scouts but information I've gleaned over the years, from friends and acquaintances, there's not a chance in hell that I will let my boy attend church activities without supervision (or any at all if my wife didn't have a say), or play bait for pedophiles in the scouts. Martial arts and soccer, just like his daddy.

[Menzo]

...and we're back to "pure evil."


"After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America's National Executive Board concluded that due to the complexity of this issue, the organization needs time for a more deliberate review of its membership policy," Deron Smith, BSA's director of public relations, explained the delay in a statement.

[Telefrog]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, man. That's classic.

[Scuzz]

I can only imagine they think allowing gays will result in troop leaders who wear frills and add merit badges like interior design and pedophilia.

[Tortilla]

I think they are afraid that the huge amount of local boy scout troops that are supported by local churches will suddenly evaporate.

[Scuzz]

I think they are afraid that the huge amount of local boy scout troops that are supported by local churches will suddenly evaporate.

Probably right to an extent. I know the Mormon Church supports the scouts and also the Catholics. There are also other churches but not every church is anti-gay. Many have welcomed gay clergy.

[Jeremy Johnsen]

The Mormon Church put out a statement basically saying we're glad they held off to make sure they understand the implications, but we're not putting out a statement saying whether we are for or against it. To me saying they are glad it's being put off says they are against getting rid of the ban, but I guess we'll see. They've made slight changes in the language they've used toward gays in the past, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


"For 100 years, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has enjoyed a strong, rewarding relationship with Boy Scouts of America as both organizations have worked to build and strengthen the moral character and leadership skills of young men.

The recent announcement that BSA planned to make a policy change in its standards for membership and leadership has triggered intense debate from many segments of society. We believe BSA has acted wisely in delaying a vote on this policy issue until the implications can be more carefully evaluated.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is carefully assessing the consequences of this policy change on the Church’s program to build and strengthen young men, but it has not commented on it and a decision will not be made until we have assessed all of the implications. We caution others not to speculate about our position or to assume that individual Latter-day Saints inside or outside the scouting movement speak for the Church. Neither has the Church launched any campaign either to effect or prevent a policy change."

[RichVR]

"After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America's National Executive Board concluded that due to the fact that a grown man spending time in a tent with heterosexual boys is a right, we don't want no fags ruining it for us," Deron Smith, BSA's director of public relations, explained the delay in a statement.

In other notes, it was decided that the naked splashing in the lake was to now be called, "Naked Heterosexual Splashing in the Lake."

[Djscman]

Unsubscribe as I might, I still get occasional Scouting spam. But today my email inbox held a winner:


The Boy Scouts of America is in the process of a careful and deliberate review of our membership policy, as it relates to national membership restriction regarding sexual orientation.

We are dedicated to the integrity of this process. In an effort to listen to our alumni's perspectives and concerns, we ask you to answer some questions about this topic.

Then it linked to a websurvey with questions like "Bobby joins the Tiger Cubs. His den nominates his mother to be a den mother. The boys know his mother is a lesbian. On a scale from totally acceptable to totally unacceptable, how acceptable would you find Bobby's mother becoming a den mother?" Looks like they're trying to feel out the old guard's reactions to maybe becoming a little bit gay. It's an itty bitty step in the right direction.

(Then I got an email saying that this guy in Africa needs my help selling erection drugs. A Scout is helpful.)

[RichVR]

Be Prepared!

[Scuzz]

Unsubscribe as I might, I still get occasional Scouting spam. But today my email inbox held a winner:



Then it linked to a websurvey with questions like "Bobby joins the Tiger Cubs. His den nominates his mother to be a den mother. The boys know his mother is a lesbian. On a scale from totally acceptable to totally unacceptable, how acceptable would you find Bobby's mother becoming a den mother?" Looks like they're trying to feel out the old guard's reactions to maybe becoming a little bit gay. It's an itty bitty step in the right direction.

(Then I got an email saying that this guy in Africa needs my help selling erection drugs. A Scout is helpful.)


I had heard on the news that the Boy Scouts were sending out questionaires about their stance on the gay scouts issue, but that question is pretty damn stupid. I think the leadership meets again in May and expects to vote on the issue.

[Houngan]

The stupidity of the whole issue is easily demonstrated by answering the question in the negative, but phrased so as to include the inference made:

"I believe all sexual intercourse within the Boy Scouts should be heterosexual."

If nobody is doing it, then you don't need a policy. I'm sure they don't have a policy about rhinoceros storage during meetings, either.

[TimElhajj]

Houngan - so glad you used the article "the."

[Houngan]

Houngan - so glad you used the article "the."

Several times, sorry I'm missing what you're saying. My point was that hopefully there's no sex at all involved in Boy Scouts, so sexual orientation shouldn't matter one way or the other. Unless it's rhinoceros sex. Hot, dirty rhinos going at it, getting their merit badges in The Nasty . . .

I'll be in my safari hammock.

[TimElhajj]

All puns can be improved, but some puns don't merit (haha!) improvement.

I like your joke about rhinoceros sex. Maybe even a little too much.

Let me know when the hammock is free.

[Scuzz]

I am a little uncomfortable with where those last two posts are going.

[RichVR]

I am surprised to learn that Tim and Houngan share a hammock.

[Houngan]

I am surprised to learn that Tim and Houngan share a hammock.

And, if we can get her drunk enough, the rhino. It's always so awkward when you wake up the next day and Tim is spooning her horn.

[Scuzz]

And, if we can get her drunk enough, the rhino. It's always so awkward when you wake up the next day and Tim is spooning her horn.

Awkward.....

[RichVR]

Oh thank GOD! It's a female rhino. For a moment there I thought you two were strange or something...

[rhinohelix]

AWWWWW YEEEAHHHH.

[Houngan]

AWWWWW YEEEAHHHH.

Hey baby. How you doin'?

[TimElhajj]

I call the horn.

[Dan_Theman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVmRpIWovdk

[Jeremy Johnsen]

All through Scouting, I very much doubt I thought even once about the men and women in charge having sex, and who or what they were doing it with. MY son will be old enough to start cub scouts next year and there is no way in hell he is sitting and pondering whether a 40 year old woman that teaches him knots is having sex with another woman at night.