Fuck Star Wars (Blu-Ray This Time)

[Woolen Horde]

The trilogies are coming to blu-ray next year (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/star-wars-films-coming-to-blu-ray-next-year/), but...


Perhaps bracing for the reactions of fans who decried some of the changes made to the special-edition films – like, say, an exchange of gunfire between Han Solo and a certain green-skinned bounty hunter – Mr. Lucas said that to release the original versions of these films on Blu-ray was “kind of an oxymoron because the quality of the original is not very good.”

“You have to go through and do a whole restoration on it, and you have to do that digitally,” he added. “It’s a very, very expensive process to do it. So when we did the transfer to digital, we only transferred really the upgraded version.”

Fuck you, George.

[Omniscia]

He's just... Diabolical.

[Chris Nahr]

Oh don't worry, I'm sure he'll eventually release the original movies on Blu-ray so you can buy them all over again!

[Major Malphunktion]

No he won't he has stated repeatably that the Special Edition is the only 'real' version in his head. He is not going to waste his time or money on what he thinks is the inferior version.

[Omniscia]

It would be nice if the Bearded One would take a page from the latest Blade Runner reissue and give us every version in one reasonably-priced package. See also the ultimate collector's edition of George A. Romero's Dawn of the Dead.

[Rob_Merritt]

No he won't he has stated repeatably that the Special Edition is the only 'real' version in his head. He is not going to waste his time or money on what he thinks is the inferior version.

We'll have to wait till he dies then.

[Mordrak]

Who said anything about waiting?

[Andrew Mayer]

How expensive can it really be anyway, considering the large number of films they've actually done it for?

[VSys114]

George's reasons for not remastering the original trilogy are suspect. Too expensive? Bull. He is richer than God now, mainly because of the poor quality "original" Star Wars. Lucasfilm can and I believe has an obligation to restore the original trilogy. Unless the rumors are true and Lucas destroyed the original negatives.

[Rob_Merritt]

Then we need to take the SE editions and unSE them. This is completely doable.

[Shieldwolf]

Don't worry you're getting a new special special edition of all 6 films in another few years in 3D
I kid you not.

[Andrew Mayer]

Don't worry you're getting a new special special edition of all 6 films in another few years in 3D
I kid you not.

I don't think 3D is going to last that long.

[MattKeil]

Don't worry you're getting a new special special edition of all 6 films in another few years in 3D
I kid you not.

Ah, they've been saying that for years. Given how badly post-processed 3D has worked out so far, I have a hard time believing George still has that little demon on his shoulder.

[Gus_Smedstad]

The "upgraded" version of Episode IV is painful to watch. Not because of the Solo / Greedo thing, though that's bad, but because he does things like have CGI giant lizards walk in front of the camera in the middle of a scene, and inserted the Jabba / Solo dialog which repeats, word for word, much of the Solo / Greedo dialog.

I don't recall the edits to the other two films being that bad. Offensive in places, like putting the whiny Christensen's image at the end of Jedi, but nothing that really destroys a section of the films like he did with IV.

In any case, I won't be buying any versions of the "special edition." Not as a form of pointless protest, but because I really don't like that version. And I seriously doubt we'll see a Blu Ray version of the originals - my understanding is the only reason we have a non-anamoprhic DVD version is that they did a transfer from the laser disc version.

- Gus

[VSys114]

Then we need to take the SE editions and unSE them. This is completely doable.

Been done:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/553014-adywans-star-wars-revisited-fan-edit-gives-chewbacca-medal-lots-other-changes.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-iYH8b1UnU&feature=player_embedded#!

[MattKeil]

The "upgraded" version of Episode IV is painful to watch. Not because of the Solo / Greedo thing, though that's bad, but because he does things like have CGI giant lizards walk in front of the camera in the middle of a scene, and inserted the Jabba / Solo dialog which repeats, word for word, much of the Solo / Greedo dialog.

I don't recall the edits to the other two films being that bad. Offensive in places, like putting the whiny Christensen's image at the end of Jedi, but nothing that really destroys a section of the films like he did with IV.

Yeah, pretty much every change in the Tatooine section of ANH is awful. I'd also like to know how Luke's saber ended up a minty green in the Falcon training sequence on DVD. I don't really mind the Anakin ghost replacement, but the "Jedi Rocks" musical number in Jabba's palace is a crime against humanity and is probably tied with Greedo for the title of "worst SE change" in my book.

The funny thing is, if you watch the SEs now, the CG looks pretty awful. It hasn't aged well at all, and it's really the only stuff in the films that doesn't hold up. He's going to have to do SE SEs if he wants them to truly be "timeless" as he claimed back in 1997.

[Hans Lauring]

Yeah, pretty much every change in the Tatooine section of ANH is awful. I'd also like to know how Luke's saber ended up a minty green in the Falcon training sequence on DVD. I don't really mind the Anakin ghost replacement, but the "Jedi Rocks" musical number in Jabba's palace is a crime against humanity and is probably tied with Greedo for the title of "worst SE change" in my book.

The funny thing is, if you watch the SEs now, the CG looks pretty awful. It hasn't aged well at all, and it's really the only stuff in the films that doesn't hold up. He's going to have to do SE SEs if he wants them to truly be "timeless" as he claimed back in 1997.

This.

I was so psyched for the SE having only seen Star Wars on telly. Those cinema commercials with x-wings flying out of a tiny screen and suddenly everything was widescreen, full surround and kickass new explosions really spoke to me... and then the reality was the slapstick entrance to the space port, Greedo shooting first, Jabbas tail and that song and dance act - the only thing worse was the new ending to Return.

Like Dickwolves raping my childhood to sleep...

[MattKeil]

There are some good changes. The entire Death Star battle is vastly improved, I like the opening up of the Cloud City sets, and of course making the snowspeeder cockpits fully opaque is great. If the SEs were about enhancements like that and fixing little errors like the white sabers in ANH and cleaning up the rancor in RotJ, it would have been great. Adding scenes and weird little moments of slapstick and fourth-wall breaking, not so much.

[Donald L.]

George's reasons for not remastering the original trilogy are suspect. Too expensive? Bull. He is richer than God now, mainly because of the poor quality "original" Star Wars. Lucasfilm can and I believe has an obligation to restore the original trilogy. Unless the rumors are true and Lucas destroyed the original negatives.

My take on all this is when the original Star Wars movies started making bags of money for George Lucas, he was very careful to archive a lot of Star Wars related items (costumes, props, models, etc.). I imagine he archived away several copies of the movies as well.

When the SE versions came out, there must have been master copies of the original films to work with.

[Donald L.]

Been done:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/553014-adywans-star-wars-revisited-fan-edit-gives-chewbacca-medal-lots-other-changes.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-iYH8b1UnU&feature=player_embedded#!

The adywan versions don't seem to be all that great.

adywan AVCHD vs HD Source (http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/71838/picture:0) (WARNING: image files are large)

[VSys114]

The adywan versions don't seem to be all that great.

adywan AVCHD vs HD Source (http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/71838/picture:0) (WARNING: image files are large)

Whatever. The point I was making was that people have reverse engineered the SE versions. I picked the first one I could find.

[cliffski]

I agree with Lucas.
Now before you burn me at the stake, accept that I am a major star wars geek. Fuck it, I have lucas's autograph, and yodas, for that matter. Plus I'm the original 1977 saw it at the cinema age, so I know why people like the original.

if you read 'skywalking', the story of the making of SW, or any of the later books on the topic, you will know it was not a movie made under good circumstances. It was real "we have no money so just fucking deal with it george, nobody will see this shitty film anyway" time. There were major blazing rows about money. He had a major falling out with the sfx guy (dykstra) and the cameraman doing the lvie action stuff. George was very stressed, and hated a ton of things about the final movie.

So lucky times, he makes money and goes back and fixes everything he hated. I bet he cringes in a hundred places when he sees the original. Maybe he was talked into han shooting first at the time and regrets it. Maybe he didn't realise han would be such a hero for kids and hates the fact that character did that. For whatever reason, he wants to change it, and keep it changed.

if you really want, you can continue to see the original version. Nobody came to my house to demand I hand over the VHS tapes. What is unreasonable is to tell a guy who funds a movie, how to make his movie. Nobody will force anyone to buy the movies on Blue-Ray.

The real story of this is:
Dude makes film
Dude decides he wants to change some aspects of the film later during re-release.
Dude changes film.

I don't see why this makes the guy a worse villain than Osama Bin Laden.

[maxle]

if you really want, you can continue to see the original version. Nobody came to my house to demand I hand over the VHS tapes. What is unreasonable is to tell a guy who funds a movie, how to make his movie.

What's unreasonable is to suggest it's unreasonable to critique a film.

[krise madsen]

I agree with Lucas.


I believe there's a special place in hell just for you.

Seriously though, it's about more than liking the original. ANH was the first movie that truly blew me away and showed me that not all moving pictures are equal. Polishing the special effects of the original is one thing, but changing stuff (like Han shooting first) and proclaiming this new version to be the "real" one, Lucas is effectively pissing on my childhood memories.

[VSys114]

I remember seeing Star Wars when it came out and I was a ten year old boy whose only exposure to science fiction had been old '50s movies like Forbidden Planet. So Star Wars (NOT "A New Hope" Star effing Wars) of course blew me away. I remember walking out of the Naugatuck Valley Mall with my parents and looking at the high ceilings and skylights and thinking it looked just like the inside of the Corellian ship. I was Luke and my best friend was Han and my dog was Chewie, for like a year.

Nothing Lucas can do now will change my experience.

[cliffski]

you still have your memories. he isn't using a death ray or anything. He released new versions of old things that are different.
Like I say, nobody need buy the new versions.

[VSys114]

you still have your memories. he isn't using a death ray or anything. He released new versions of old things that are different.
Like I say, nobody need buy the new versions.
Different and almost universally deemed a failure of epic proportions. A taste of things to come, really.

[BobJustBob]

you still have your memories. he isn't using a death ray or anything. He released new versions of old things that are different.
Like I say, nobody need buy the new versions.

As long as we don't mind keeping VCRs around.

Fuck Star Wars.

[madkevin]

you still have your memories. he isn't using a death ray or anything. He released new versions of old things that are different.
Like I say, nobody need buy the new versions.

Is it so crazy to believe that some people want to see the old versions again? I don't give a crap that Lucas is suffer some sort of auteur delusion and he refuses to allow me to watch the originals. I just want to watch the fucking things.

[ColonelT]

Spike is running an OT marathon today, and I caught the last 30 minutes of Empire. For the life of me, I can't figure out why Lucas inserted the scenes of Vader commuting from Cloud City to his Star Destroyer. Did audience members really struggle with the "How did Vader get back to the Star Destroyer" question? It's not like he was going to stay on Bespin forever; who cares how he got back? Plus, it ruins the reveal of the Imperial Shuttle at the start of Jedi.

I guess Lucas was just practicing for the prequel trilogy, 40% of which is just people commuting.

[Gordon Cameron]

People revising their artworks happens all the time, but what you often find is that for whatever reason, their "improvements" do not last in the minds of critics or the public -- often the earliest version is what is still beloved. Robert Schumann rewrote much of his piano music toward the end of his life. He considered it to be an "improvement" but others felt that much of the youthful daring of those compositions had been removed; pianists now generally perform the original editions.

I don't begrudge the artist an opportunity to revise his or her work, but I don't like it when the old version is expunged. At least the theatrical cuts of Star Wars/Empire/Jedi can be seen on the DVDs struck from the laser disc masters, which, while far from perfect, are certainly watchable. But when we see the magnificent work that Warners and MGM have done restoring classics of their own library -- films that are decades older than Star Wars -- it seems to me hard to believe that theatrical prints from the 70s or '80s couldn't be found, scanned in, corrected with DNR and color-correction and whatnot, and made presentable for Blu-Ray. No doubt Lucas is correct that the process would be expensive, but surely the resulting discs would sell extremely well -- could it be that they wouldn't make back the money spent to do the restorations? I'm skeptical.

As for the updated FX work in the Special Edition, my problem is that it pulls the movie out of its own time and disrespects the original technical achievements. The original model-based FX on Star Wars were brilliant, using the tools of the time to create a grand fantasy onscreen. The film stands alongside Cooper's King Kong, Melies's A Voyage to the Moon, Kubrick's 2001 (which, by the way, looks fantastic on Blu-ray), and Harryhausen's Jason & the Argonauts as one of the seminal achievements in movie effects. It deserves preservation in its original form. Just as it would be absurd to do CGI inserts of the ape in the original 1933 Kong, I don't like the use of decades-later technology in Star Wars reissues.

[Gus_Smedstad]

For me, the point isn't even that he changed them. The point is that he inserted stuff that sticks out because it's bad. If you showed someone who had never seen the original version the "enhanced" version, there are scenes that would stick out. The Jabba / Solo dialog I mentioned before being the most obvious, because it's so repetitive.

[VSys114]

Well put Gordon.

It reminds me of when Warner Brothers released the censored version of Eyes Wide Shut in the USA. Some Warner exec was quoted to the effect of "there is only ONE version of this film" and lo and behold, a different uncensored version comes out on DVD.

I am afraid we may just have to wait until Lucas dies to get our hands on the original films. Unless he has something in his will about it. In which case we invade the Ranch.

[MattKeil]

Just watch the originals on DVD. The Blu-Ray transfer wouldn't do the '70s era effects any favors, anyway. The TIE Fighters' garbage mattes are bad enough on DVD, I don't think I'd want to see it in HD. Besides, Lucas said the same damn thing about the DVD release in 2004 and after he made shitloads of cash on that, which is surprising considering how the prequels and SEs are "universally reviled" according to everyone in their 30s on the internet, he "suddenly" figured out a way to release the original theatricals. It'll happen, it's just a time release marketing strategy.

I'm still annoyed that with all the stupid changes made to the SEs, Lucas didn't touch the taun-tauns, which I find to be one of the worst effects in the entire series.

[VSys114]

Just watch the originals on DVD. The Blu-Ray transfer wouldn't do the '70s era effects any favors, anyway. The TIE Fighters' garbage mattes are bad enough on DVD, I don't think I'd want to see it in HD. Besides, Lucas said the same damn thing about the DVD release in 2004 and after he made shitloads of cash on that, which is surprising considering how the prequels and SEs are "universally reviled" according to everyone in their 30s on the internet, he "suddenly" figured out a way to release the original theatricals. It'll happen, it's just a time release marketing strategy.

I'm still annoyed that with all the stupid changes made to the SEs, Lucas didn't touch the taun-tauns, which I find to be one of the worst effects in the entire series.

The only reason you can see the Tie Fighter mattes is the way the film was transferred to laserdisc master. A modern transfer with the correct color correction would fix that. I saw a pre-remastered charity showing of the original trilogy (no cgi, and on actual film) at the Cinerama in Seattle in the early '90s and I remember not seeing the moving matte outlines in the space battles.

[Austin Arlitt]

Then we need to take the SE editions and unSE them. This is completely doable.

This has been done. There are multiple options, depending on how much of the SE updates you want creeping in. (For example, I prefer the 1997 effects updates to Jedi, and the updates to the X-Wings in Star Wars, but not any of the other changes---and this can be viewed seamlessly)

Lucasfilm has stated that they consider all such fanedits to be fan films, unless they're identical to any officially released cut & only include extras---which happened once & was promptly addressed. I'm unaware of that position having changed in the past few years. It's still legal grey area at best, but not frowned upon. George even watched the original Phantom Edit.



The only reason you can see the Tie Fighter mattes is the way the film was transferred to laserdisc master. A modern transfer with the correct color correction would fix that. I saw a pre-remastered charity showing of the original trilogy (no cgi, and on actual film) at the Cinerama in Seattle in the early '90s and I remember not seeing the moving matte outlines in the space battles.
I usually still watch my VHS copies, and neither the original cuts nor the 1997 cuts have noticeable matte lines. Only the 2004 cuts had color problems that bad.

[MattKeil]

The only reason you can see the Tie Fighter mattes is the way the film was transferred to laserdisc master. A modern transfer with the correct color correction would fix that.

Which is something you're not going to get, because Lucas isn't going to put that kind of effort into the originals. And I'm not even sure it matters, because...


I saw a pre-remastered charity showing of the original trilogy (no cgi, and on actual film) at the Cinerama in Seattle in the early '90s and I remember not seeing the moving matte outlines in the space battles.

I specifically remember boxes around the TIEs when I saw the films as a kid, because the build of the toy TIE was out of proportion when compared to the film version, and my "proof" for that was that a matte box around the toy TIE would have been a very different shape from what I'd seen in the film. Certainly wasn't as bad as the laserdisc transfer, though.


I usually still watch my VHS copies, and neither the original cuts nor the 1997 cuts have noticeable matte lines. Only the 2004 cuts had color problems that bad.

Both VHS versions of the trilogy I owned had very noticeable matte lines on the ships. The promised cleanup of those was the main reason I was interested in the SE originally.

[VSys114]

Which is something you're not going to get, because Lucas isn't going to put that kind of effort into the originals. And I'm not even sure it matters, because...



I specifically remember boxes around the TIEs when I saw the films as a kid, because the build of the toy TIE was out of proportion when compared to the film version, and my "proof" for that was that a matte box around the toy TIE would have been a very different shape from what I'd seen in the film. Certainly wasn't as bad as the laserdisc transfer, though.



Both VHS versions of the trilogy I owned had very noticeable matte lines on the ships. The promised cleanup of those was the main reason I was interested in the SE originally.

The Cinerama had a 70mm print of Star Wars. I just remember looking for the matte shapes on the starfield and not seeing them.

[MattKeil]

The Cinerama had a 70mm print of Star Wars. I just remember looking for the matte shapes on the starfield and not seeing them.

Might vary from print-to-print. Also entirely possible the print you saw was a much better transfer than what was send out en masse to theatres in 1980. I should probably specify that I was referring to ESB, not Star Wars.

[ColonelT]

By the way, what's the consensus on the newly revealed RotJ deleted scene? Actual deleted scene or newly shot footage masquerading as a deleted scene? I know Luke building the green lightsaber was in a version of the screenplay, the novel, the radio drama, etc. but I could have sworn Lucas and Hamill have both denied shooting it for years.

[MattKeil]

If it's faked, I'd say it's time to use that technology to make Episodes VII-IX. Sure looked like Mark Hamill circa 1982 to me. The only unusual thing I saw was that it was not common to have onscreen saber activations in the OT due to the limitations of the effects at the time. The way he ignites the saber would almost certainly have caused a jump in the positioning in 1983 effects. Then again, if they shot multiple angles, the intention could have been to cut away to a fully ignited shot back then, but the version we're getting was finished using modern CG effects and thus the cutaway was unnecessary.

[John Many Jars]

I don't care much about Star Wars, but it obviously wouldn't do Lucas's pocketbook any harm to keep the original in print, or to let it be an option on the disc. It's pretty pretentious that he won't --- we aren't exactly talking about a book of sonnets, here.

[Omniscia]

Didn't they fix the matte lines for the original, pre-Special Edition versions for that mid-90s THX-approved reissue (the "Faces" edition)?

[MattKeil]

Didn't they fix the matte lines for the original, pre-Special Edition versions for that mid-90s THX-approved reissue (the "Faces" edition)?

Not that I recall. Those are the versions I most associate with the matte lines, although my memory may be confusing them with another VHS release.

[MatthewF]

My girl wanted to throw away an original VHS boxset of the theatrical SW (in the gold trim and everything and Han on the front with a blaster!) when she moved in, because we didn't have a VHS player anyway and so we wouldn't wa-- well, cut to the chase, I made sure we kept those motherfuckers.

[Eric T Cheng]

Spike is running an OT marathon today, and I caught the last 30 minutes of Empire. For the life of me, I can't figure out why Lucas inserted the scenes of Vader commuting from Cloud City to his Star Destroyer. Did audience members really struggle with the "How did Vader get back to the Star Destroyer" question? It's not like he was going to stay on Bespin forever; who cares how he got back? Plus, it ruins the reveal of the Imperial Shuttle at the start of Jedi.

I thought the original line of "Bring me my shuttle" served enough exposition to explain how he got back to his Super Star Destroyer. If anything the new scenes just makes the TIE Fighters chasing the Millennium Falcon rather drawn out and slow -- Vader manages to get on his shuttle and leave orbit while the Lando is taking his sweet time flying in the clouds.

[bluemax]

I thought the original line of "Bring me my shuttle" served enough exposition to explain how he got back to his Super Star Destroyer. If anything the new scenes just makes the TIE Fighters chasing the Millennium Falcon rather drawn out and slow -- Vader manages to get on his shuttle and leave orbit while the Lando is taking his sweet time flying in the clouds.

I was watching the special edition on Spike this weekend and started slightly before this part, and when it got to this part I was annoyed by this very fact. It made no chronological sense to me.

[Eric T Cheng]

I didn't mind the Special Editions for cleaning up matte lines, the translucent Snowspeed cockpits or missing lightsabre glows. I actually liked the scene where Han and Chewie chases the Stormtroopers down the hall into a hanger full of Stormtroopers (originally it was just a dead end).

I didn't care for the CGI Jabba (it was redone for the DVD version) or the extend music sequence in RotJ. The CGI droids on Luke's speeder looked really bad, especially on the big screen.

[mrmolecule88]

It's pretty pretentious that he won't --- we aren't exactly talking about a book of sonnets, here.

Verily.

[MattKeil]

I was watching the special edition on Spike this weekend and started slightly before this part, and when it got to this part I was annoyed by this very fact. It made no chronological sense to me.

It's a really weird addition, especially the use of the RotJ footage. The SSD doesn't have a hangar like that (star destroyers have their hangars underneath, not on the sides...even if there is an entrance like that inside the underbelly section, it would be recessed and the other side of the indentation would be visible out the hangar opening, not empty space), no lambda shuttles have been shown at all in ESB so far (blowing the reveal in RotJ, as mentioned earlier), and you can even see the Imperial officer walking up to meet Vader. What, do they assemble the entire 501st every time Vader flies back home, even if they're in the middle of actively chasing down a fugitive ship and subjugating an entire city? I know the Empire's big on showmanship, but come on. Really lazy, really pointless. Adds nothing to the film and James Earl Jones sounds weird when he says the new line.

[krayzkrok]

I agree with Gordon. While Lucas is perfectly within his right to release a muppets version of Star Wars if he wants (actually, that would be great), at the very least the original versions should be available in a usable format. Lucas is a multibillionaire now because we all loved the original Star Wars, warts and all, and it seems crazy to deny that it ever really existed. I'm all for cleaning up matte boxes and missing lightsaber glows because those are technical flaws that were unintentional, but I draw the line at redoing effects as CGI because the artistry on display back then was part of the experience.

[Andrew Mayer]

The funny thing is, if you watch the SEs now, the CG looks pretty awful. It hasn't aged well at all, and it's really the only stuff in the films that doesn't hold up. He's going to have to do SE SEs if he wants them to truly be "timeless" as he claimed back in 1997.

It didn't "age" poorly. It was poorly done. Starship Troopers came out the same year and that CG still looks great.

I had a friend on some industry e-mail lists at the time, and he took the animators to task for not doing a better job.

Their reply was that they "only got five million to do the job."

He pointed out that this was Star Wars, and they should have done whatever it took to make it the best movie possible, and that people would be watching it for years to come.

[Rimbo]

I agree with Lucas.
Now before you burn me at the stake, accept that I am a major star wars geek. Fuck it, I have lucas's autograph, and yodas, for that matter. Plus I'm the original 1977 saw it at the cinema age, so I know why people like the original.

if you read 'skywalking', the story of the making of SW, or any of the later books on the topic, you will know it was not a movie made under good circumstances. It was real "we have no money so just fucking deal with it george, nobody will see this shitty film anyway" time. There were major blazing rows about money. He had a major falling out with the sfx guy (dykstra) and the cameraman doing the lvie action stuff. George was very stressed, and hated a ton of things about the final movie.

So lucky times, he makes money and goes back and fixes everything he hated. I bet he cringes in a hundred places when he sees the original. Maybe he was talked into han shooting first at the time and regrets it. Maybe he didn't realise han would be such a hero for kids and hates the fact that character did that. For whatever reason, he wants to change it, and keep it changed.

if you really want, you can continue to see the original version. Nobody came to my house to demand I hand over the VHS tapes. What is unreasonable is to tell a guy who funds a movie, how to make his movie. Nobody will force anyone to buy the movies on Blue-Ray.

The real story of this is:
Dude makes film
Dude decides he wants to change some aspects of the film later during re-release.
Dude changes film.

I don't see why this makes the guy a worse villain than Osama Bin Laden.

He's not worse than Osama Bin Laden. It's just that sometimes great art comes from all of that stress and pain. And for whatever reason, what Lucas put together for Star Wars, the first time, worked. And some of the changes he added in later didn't. Some of the failings are for reasons that are painfully obvious; Greedo shooting first fails on multiple levels, from the transformation of Han's character from conniving rogue into lucky schmuck to the simple fact that Greedo, with a bead on Han and at pointblank range, could not reasonably have missed -- if Han doesn't shoot first, he dies.

Frankly, a lot of what Lucas did with Star Wars after the fact was good; the Death Star attack sequence is better, Mos Eisley looks more like a real city rather than a studio backlot, and it's nice to see Han's yelling charge down a hallway end in retreat with much better reason. But changes like the Greedo and Jabba bits foreshadowed George's cluelessness about good storytelling and character development that would plague the prequels. George was only capable of great works if people were around to tell him he was wrong. Once he became rich, he never had to have that crowd around him again.

[Rimbo]

Didn't they fix the matte lines for the original, pre-Special Edition versions for that mid-90s THX-approved reissue (the "Faces" edition)?

That's my go-to edition. I have the Platinum copy of the Special Ed., and the black box of the THX remaster.

[MattKeil]

George was only capable of great works if people were around to tell him he was wrong. Once he became rich, he never had to have that crowd around him again.

More accurately, once he divorced Marcia, he no longer had anyone around him who would argue with him tooth and nail until he made the right decisions. By many accounts she was the editorial force that kept Lucas and Spielberg from believing their own hype. Once she was out of the picture, they were just surrounded by yes-men and kids who had grown up watching their movies. Not going to get a lot of constructive criticism out of those groups.

[Eric T Cheng]

George was only capable of great works if people were around to tell him he was wrong. Once he became rich, he never had to have that crowd around him again.

His then wife on the first Star Wars movie was the editor and it's quite clear that she hand a lot of pull in that movie.

It seems to me that Lucas has surrounded himself with yes-men for the prequels.

[MattKeil]

Jinx.

[Mark Asher]

You guys see this LA Times article about the producer on the first two films, Gary Kurtz? He slams Lucas a bit. It's too bad they had a falling out. I think if Kurtz had been around Return of the Jedi might not have been as bad as it was.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/12/entertainment/la-et-gary-kurtz-20100812


"We had an outline and George changed everything in it, "Kurtz said. "Instead of bittersweet and poignant he wanted a euphoric ending with everybody happy. The original idea was that they would recover [the kidnapped] Han Solo in the early part of story and that he would then die in the middle part of the film in a raid on an Imperial base. George then decided he didn't want any of the principals killed. By that time there were really big toy sales and that was a reason."

The discussed ending of the film that Kurtz favored presented the rebel forces in tatters, Leia grappling with her new duties as queen and Luke walking off alone "like Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti westerns," as Kurtz put it.

Kurtz said that ending would have been a more emotionally nuanced finale to an epic adventure than the forest celebration of the Ewoks that essentially ended the trilogy with a teddy-bear luau.

He was especially disdainful of the Lucas idea of a second Death Star, which he felt would be too derivative of the 1977 film. "So we agreed that I should probably leave."

Any ending is better than the ridiculous ewoks. Lucas is just hamfisted if he doesn't have anyone to counterbalance his impulses, I guess.

[Chris Nahr]

Sounds like Lucas already refused to listen to anyone else at that time, so Kurtz staying probably wouldn't have made a difference.

[Rob_Merritt]

Not that I recall. Those are the versions I most associate with the matte lines, although my memory may be confusing them with another VHS release.


I saw Star Wars at least a dozen times in the theater during the 70s and early 80s and every version had matte lines around the tie fighters. Some where more visable than others. Depending on lighting and quality of the print.

[peacedog]

What is unreasonable is to tell a guy who funds a movie, how to make his movie. Nobody will force anyone to buy the movies on Blue-Ray.


He's free to do whatever he wants with his movie. I am free to point out how terrible those things are when the results of those actions are Greedo shooting first and out of place creatures in Mos Eisley. Further, I am free to speculate about George's decision making abilities and dumb-ass-ed-ness.

[John Many Jars]

You guys see this LA Times article about the producer on the first two films, Gary Kurtz? He slams Lucas a bit. It's too bad they had a falling out. I think if Kurtz had been around Return of the Jedi might not have been as bad as it was.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/12/entertainment/la-et-gary-kurtz-20100812



Any ending is better than the ridiculous ewoks. Lucas is just hamfisted if he doesn't have anyone to counterbalance his impulses, I guess.

I saw Jedi on TV when I was home for Xmas --- first time since in the theater when it came out. It struck me that the euphoria begins after the first scene --- Han is really smiley the whole time he's in the forest, not the same character at all.

Lando's just shoehorned in as a stand-in for Han and Luke on the second Death Star, and somehow there was no tension there --- we'd seen it before, and there was no twist. I thought the only well-done part was Vader turning.

[Mark Asher]

There's not much in Return of the Jedi I liked. Maybe the best thing about it was that it meant Lucas was done making Star Wars movies for awhile.

[Rob_Merritt]

As I've mentioned before, I wish Star Wars never had a sequel. As good as Empire was, it wasn't worth the crap that followed after.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Kurtz is spot-on about the second death star. While the Ewoks are the obvious and easy target, Jedi lacks tension because we've seen the ending before. And then Lucas went and used the same ending again in Episode One. Each time it gets worse - first there's the tense trench scene, with Vader about to roast Luke, and the nearly impossible shot. Then there's the fairly easy destruction of Death Star #2. Then the Federation stand-in for the Death Star gets destroyed... by accident, by a 9 year old.

I'm mostly with Rob on this one. Return of the Jedi isn't anywhere near as bad as any of the prequels, but it's bad enough that I wish the series had ended with Star Wars. The emasculation of Vader began with that film.

- Gus

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, I could easily wish away forever all but the first two films. I mean, Christopher Lee having to play a character named Count Dooku and fight a muppet?

[dermot]

I love Jedi. Love it. Anyone who doesn't like it is mock-jaded and genetically predisposed to hate fun and furthermore anyone who thinks that big teddy bears would somehow have magically been cooler than little teddy bears is deluded. Is Jedi as good as Empire? No. Is it as good as A New Hope? Nope. Is it a bad film? Not at all.

Leaving aside TPM, which is just a terrible terrible film with one or two fleeting moments of inspiration, the worst thing about the prequels is that they somehow manage to make Star Wars dull. Which is kinda awesome in its own awful way.

[Rob_Merritt]

Yeah, I could easily wish away forever all but the first two films. I mean, Christopher Lee having to play a character named Count Dooku and fight a muppet?

The problem is Empire isn't a stand alone move where as Star Wars is.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Anyone who doesn't like it is mock-jaded and genetically predisposed to hate fun and furthermore anyone who thinks that big teddy bears would somehow have magically been cooler than little teddy bears is deluded.
1. Grizzly bears are not big teddy bears.
2. False dichotomy. Those are not the only two alternatives. The third movie didn't have to feature Wookies fighting stormtroopers, either. Or even if it did, it could have been handled as a conventional fight, or guerrilla warfare, without the cutesy log traps.


Is it a bad film? Not at all.
If it existed in a vacuum, it would have been OK. It's just that it re-hashed old material and took the first steps toward destroying one of the great villains of our time. Not as much as making him into a petulant teenager, but I remember being very unhappy with that aspect of it when I saw it, not just later.


Leaving aside TPM, which is just a terrible terrible film with one or two fleeting moments of inspiration, the worst thing about the prequels is that they somehow manage to make Star Wars dull. Which is kinda awesome in its own awful way.I think my realization that Lucas had completely lost it was the underwater trip in TPM. Because it was dull. And when Qui-gon deals with the huge predatory fish with Jedi mind control, Lucas had to stretch the scene out by doing it again.

- Gus

[Athryn]

As evidenced by his post on the 3x3 thread, Gus is kinda crazy when it comes to Return of the Jedi. I certainly know that when I saw Jedi at the age of 9, I thought it was awesome. When I see it (and the others,) I am again transformed into that little kid.

[Gus_Smedstad]

As evidenced by his post on the 3x3 thread, Gus is kinda crazy when it comes to Return of the Jedi.
Ah, the internet. Where flat assertion replaces argument, and "I disagree with you" means "you are crazy."

[Athryn]

Except that you are, because you seem to have it i n your head that Empire takes place immediately after Empire. :)

Plus your talk of "emasculating Vader" kinda has crazy about it. Of course, so does the whole nerdrage/fuck Lucas meme.

[Andrew Mayer]

I agree with the "Jedi is okay" crowd.

It's a shocking change of tone from the first two films and there's no real sense of personal conflict, just a lot of shouting about stuff.

[nixon66]

I love Jedi just for the fact that it gave me A-Wings and B-Wings, along with the TIE Interceptors to play with in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games. The space battles were well done at least in Jedi. I loved that part. Screw the Ewoks. Give me more battles in space!!!

[Athryn]

This is true, the space battles were super awesome. Plus Jedi gives us "ITS A TRAP!"

[wahoo]

The change in Star Wars had some negative impact on Jedi. One of the neater things about Jedi was you finally saw the Hut who was potrayed as the evil, nasty bad ass gangster. And he was in Jedi at first. Having people tossed to Rancors who annoyed him. A regular debauchery in his base. The first glimpses of Jabba lived up to the billing but this got trumped because you see trump looking stupid in IV walking with Solo. That erased the wonder of seeing Jabba for the first time after hearing all about him and why Solo was so worried about him.


Also, the Greedo change really altered the character of Solo. He changed from a new anti-hero type to a more traditional thief with a heart of gold archetype. Much more boring in the new version.

[Woolen Horde]

This is true, the space battles were super awesome. Plus Jedi gives us "ITS A TRAP!"

http://obamapacman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Its-a-Frap-Star-Wars-Admiral-Ackbar-Its-a-Trap-Spoof.jpg

[Jupiter Jones]

I remember seeing Star Wars when it came out and I was a ten year old boy whose only exposure to science fiction had been old '50s movies like Forbidden Planet. So Star Wars (NOT "A New Hope" Star effing Wars) of course blew me away. I remember walking out of the Naugatuck Valley Mall with my parents and looking at the high ceilings and skylights and thinking it looked just like the inside of the Corellian ship. I was Luke and my best friend was Han and my dog was Chewie, for like a year.
Nothing Lucas can do now will change my experience.

Replace "Naugatuck Valley Mall" with "South Bay Center General Cinema #1" and then it's ditto for me.

[Mordrak]

if you really want, you can continue to see the original version. Nobody came to my house to demand I hand over the VHS tapes. What is unreasonable is to tell a guy who funds a movie, how to make his movie. Nobody will force anyone to buy the movies on Blue-Ray.


But your VHS tapes will degrade, negatives be lost, and instances of that particular cultural text will disappear over time eventually leaving only the Lucas approved version readily available.




The real story of this is:
Dude makes film
Dude decides he wants to change some aspects of the film later during re-release.
Dude changes film.

I don't see why this makes the guy a worse villain than Osama Bin Laden.

He's not worse than osama bin laden, but he is an argument for why letting copyright expire sooner rather than later matters.

[VSys114]

RIP STAR WARS 1977 - 1997

http://i34.tinypic.com/2hx0p6h.jpg

[rhinohelix]

Replace "Naugatuck Valley Mall" with "South Bay Center General Cinema #1" and then it's ditto for me.

I went to the cinema to see Star Wars 50-something times. I was actually ran over by a car (I wasn't seriously hurt) as I jerked away from my grandmother crossing a street because I was upset we were going to see "Herby Goes Bananas" instead of Star Wars, which I hadn't seen yet. I remember my 6 year-old self looking up at the classic Star Wars poster with Luke holding the light saber up and dreaming about seeing the movie I had only seen glimpses of on Good Morning America. Even after the paramedics left, we had to go see Herby. Part of that feeling Star Wars gave me back then is still with me today.

Lucas can't even have that Volkswagen Beetle back.

I tend to split the difference on Jedi. I really like the Vader-Luke-Emperor sequence. That is where the tension is and where the fate of the galaxy is being decided. The battles outside are just a side-show (an awesome sideshow in 1983 terms but still) to the larger goings on. Anything where Ewoks on screen is just terrible, and the Jabba musical number is just mind-shearingly awful. Seriously, who saw that in a final cut and told Lucas that was good?

The prequels weren't wholly bad but shamefully mediocre. Somehow Lucas managed to make them more serious (less fun) and less serious (more slapstick, more veneer, and less meaningful) at the same time.

Star Wars is such a product of its time as well. Taking Star Wars out of the 1970's with its Cold-War tensions and replacing it with 00's politics and Iraq/War on Terror didn't do it any favors, either. The Death Star-progression (miracle, easy, accidentally by a 9 year old) is a great point, too.

[Austin Arlitt]

I love Jedi just for the fact that it gave me A-Wings and B-Wings, along with the TIE Interceptors to play with in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games. The space battles were well done at least in Jedi. I loved that part. Screw the Ewoks. Give me more battles in space!!!
You might be interested in the Spence Cut, which removes all ewoks. Kinda jumpy though, so it isn't worth your time if you can just ignore them. I don't mind the ewoks until the third act when they try to do battle.


But your VHS tapes will degrade, negatives be lost, and instances of that particular cultural text will disappear over time eventually leaving only the Lucas approved version readily available.
Nonsense! All kinds of digital backups have already been made, and the laserdisc masters were used for the 2006 DVDs. They'll be lost about as much as my vinyl collection will be lost after the LPs have worn out, leaving me with digital transfers.

[sinnick]

I agree with cliffski.

In his opposition to the fan argument of "Lucas owes us!" Lucas doesn't owe us anything: he's provided us with hours and hours of entertainment over many decades of our lives. We've most definitely got what we paid for from him.

HOWEVER! I don't think most people are actually making the "Lucas owes us" argument! I think most people are making the argument: "I'm mad because Lucas made something I like worse, and won't let me have the original back."

They are two different things. I think it's perfectly valid to be angry about the second one.

Personally, I'm not really angry, per se, because I don't care enough about Star Wars since the prequels to be angry. I'm more disappointed-yet-complacent.


Didn't they fix the matte lines for the original, pre-Special Edition versions for that mid-90s THX-approved reissue (the "Faces" edition)?

Does anyone know if this "Faces" edition was ever transferred to DVD? That would be my choice of copy to own. I have the VHS boxed set lying around somewhere but I can't watch it anymore because I don't own a VHS. It's this version that I'd like to show my kids one day.

[VSys114]

I went to the cinema to see Star Wars 50-something times. I was actually ran over by a car (I wasn't seriously hurt) as I jerked away from my grandmother crossing a street because I was upset we were going to see "Herby Goes Bananas" instead of Star Wars, which I hadn't seen yet. I remember my 6 year-old self looking up at the classic Star Wars poster with Luke holding the light saber up and dreaming about seeing the movie I had only seen glimpses of on Good Morning America. Even after the paramedics left, we had to go see Herby. Part of that feeling Star Wars gave me back then is still with me today.

Lucas can't even have that Volkswagen Beetle back.

I tend to split the difference on Jedi. I really like the Vader-Luke-Emperor sequence. That is where the tension is and where the fate of the galaxy is being decided. The battles outside are just a side-show (an awesome sideshow in 1983 terms but still) to the larger goings on. Anything where Ewoks on screen is just terrible, and the Jabba musical number is just mind-shearingly awful. Seriously, who saw that in a final cut and told Lucas that was good?

The prequels weren't wholly bad but shamefully mediocre. Somehow Lucas managed to make them more serious (less fun) and less serious (more slapstick, more veneer, and less meaningful) at the same time.

Star Wars is such a product of its time as well. Taking Star Wars out of the 1970's with its Cold-War tensions and replacing it with 00's politics and Iraq/War on Terror didn't do it any favors, either.

Keep in mind that Lucas only directed Star Wars and the prequels.

[Mordrak]

Nonsense! All kinds of digital backups have already been made, and the laserdisc masters were used for the 2006 DVDs. They'll be lost about as much as my vinyl collection will be lost after the LPs have worn out, leaving me with digital transfers.

Depending on the state of the law though, those digital backups themselves or distributing them, could be a crime. Iterpretation of the DMCA is still in flux and international agreements still being made.

There's a difference between such things exist or can be made and doing so is legal. That is why I referenced copyright law. Depending on what happens with P2P and net neutrality, quality backups drying up could be a real possibility.

[Austin Arlitt]

The 2006 DVDs are an official Lucasfilm release, and you can make your own backups of VHS tapes in the same way you can make your own backups of LPs.

[Mordrak]

The 2006 DVDs are an official Lucasfilm release, and you can make your own backups of VHS tapes in the same way you can make your own backups of LPs.

I understand that you can. I'm not talking about next year. Copyright in the US lasts 95 years and will likely continued to be expanded. Has breaking the encryption on DVDs been solidly and consistently ruled not a felony under the DMCA?

In 50 years, it may be mostly only Bluray that's available, and what if Lucas' estate still holds that stance about restoring the originals? Time eats away at physical copies and personally distributing digital copies is decidedly illegal at this time in the US.

[Andrew Mayer]

"Herby Goes Bananas"

Herbie.

But yeah. Up until Star Wars summer movies were pretty thin gruel for kids.

By the late seventies the grown-up stuff was also pretty damn grown-up, so your choices were pablum or pate'.
My solution was to read more comic books.

It wouldn't really be until the mid-80s that you started to see good sci-fi with any regularity.

[MattKeil]

Even after the paramedics left, we had to go see Herby.

That's fucking ice cold.

I'm in the "Jedi is okay" camp. I actually hated it when I saw it at release, but have warmed to it over the years. It's still a collection of really bad decisions, but it has its moments. Certainly it's the most prequel-ish of the three originals.


It wouldn't really be until the mid-80s that you started to see good sci-fi with any regularity.

Star Wars isn't sci-fi.

[VSys114]

That's fucking ice cold.

I'm in the "Jedi is okay" camp. I actually hated it when I saw it at release, but have warmed to it over the years. It's still a collection of really bad decisions, but it has its moments. Certainly it's the most prequel-ish of the three originals.



Star Wars isn't sci-fi.


The best thing about Jedi was the set design and Ian McDiarmid saying "something something DAAARK SIIIIDE"

[Andrew Mayer]

Star Wars isn't sci-fi.

Yes. That was a distinction that Hollywood producers have been busy making for the last thirty years...

Ouch. I just hurt myself rolling my eyes so hard.

[Athryn]

Star Wars isn't sci-fi.


Yes. That was a distinction that Hollywood producers have been busy making for the last thirty years...

Ouch. I just hurt myself rolling my eyes so hard.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[Pogue Mahone]

I didn't know there was a Return of the Jedi backlash until I found the internet, before that I just thought everyone agreed all the Star Wars movies were awesome (this was pre-prequels, if you will, of course). But I'm also with Mr. Kurtz, I felt a little let down by Jedi because of the second Death Star. I mean, sure, Death Stars are awesome but come on, we've done that. It's a huge galaxy, can't you give me something new? I didn't care one way or another about Ewoks, they definitely weren't what I came to see but I can't say they bothered me too much.

[Austin Arlitt]

I understand that you can. I'm not talking about next year. Copyright in the US lasts 95 years and will likely continued to be expanded. Has breaking the encryption on DVDs been solidly and consistently ruled not a felony under the DMCA?

In 50 years, it may be mostly only Bluray that's available, and what if Lucas' estate still holds that stance about restoring the originals? Time eats away at physical copies and personally distributing digital copies is decidedly illegal at this time in the US.

Ah, okay now I get you. In that sense, we may have to rely on preservation types like me clinging to the various versions of the original cuts until another generation can restore them to mass distribution.

Dammit, you just made me realize that I probably won't live to see the day Star Wars is free at last! Hopefully we'll see a change of heart when he's senile. I doubt it.

[Andy Bates]

I didn't mind the Special Editions for cleaning up matte lines, the translucent Snowspeed cockpits or missing lightsabre glows. I actually liked the scene where Han and Chewie chases the Stormtroopers down the hall into a hanger full of Stormtroopers (originally it was just a dead end).


I'm all for cleaning up matte boxes and missing lightsaber glows because those are technical flaws that were unintentional,

See, this is the problem: Some people would say, "Leave the original movie as is and don't change anything," while others would say, "Don't change the flaws that give the movie character, but change the flaws that were unintentional." The thing is, everyone disagrees on which parts they want to be changed, and which ones they like to remain in their original form. If you remove the matte boxes or fix Vader's lightsaber or keep the stormtrooper from bumping his head, I guarantee you will have people complaining about those changes.

[cliffski]

I love Jedi just for the fact that it gave me A-Wings and B-Wings, along with the TIE Interceptors to play with in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games. The space battles were well done at least in Jedi. I loved that part. Screw the Ewoks. Give me more battles in space!!!

so what are you are saying is that we need more in the way of gratuitous space battles? *zing!*

[VSys114]

so what are you are saying is that we need more in the way of gratuitous space battles? *zing!*

Speaking of which, I remember seeing Jedi and thinking, wow that is a lot of spaceships. Too many.

It was like as the trilogy progressed, and continuing with the prequels, Lucas was running out of ideas so he just put more and more spaceships doing battle on screen, on more and more fronts. In Star Wars, you had X-Wings attacking the Death Star. By the time of "Sith" there were what 50 battles going on concurrently at the end?

[Ben Sones]

George's reasons for not remastering the original trilogy are suspect. Too expensive? Bull.

He's a lying sack of shit. I mean, this doesn't even make sense:


“You have to go through and do a whole restoration on it, and you have to do that digitally,” he added. “It’s a very, very expensive process to do it. So when we did the transfer to digital, we only transferred really the upgraded version.”

So, what? He did all of the added CG effects and enhancements on film, and then... what? Spliced it in? And then digitally remastered the whole mess? Bullshit. I guarantee that there is an unaltered digital transfer of the original films, cleaned and restored, and all of the new effects and alterations were edited into that using modern digital editing equipment.

It makes zero sense that they would have done it any other way. I'm not even sure that there IS another way they could have done it. He just doesn't want to admit that there's a clean, digital transfer of the original films, and that he's just too much of a petulant, narcissistic douchebag to release it.

[peacedog]

I didn't know there was a Return of the Jedi backlash until I found the internet, before that I just thought everyone agreed all the Star Wars movies were awesome (this was pre-prequels, if you will, of course). But I'm also with Mr. Kurtz, I felt a little let down by Jedi because of the second Death Star. I mean, sure, Death Stars are awesome but come on, we've done that. It's a huge galaxy, can't you give me something new? I didn't care one way or another about Ewoks, they definitely weren't what I came to see but I can't say they bothered me too much.

The opinion on Return of the Jedi amongst my non-geeky and only-slightly-geeky friends had started to turn by the time everyone was in college (early 90s).

[VSys114]

He's a lying sack of shit. I mean, this doesn't even make sense:



So, what? He did all of the added CG effects and enhancements on film, and then... what? Spliced it in? And then digitally remastered the whole mess? Bullshit. I guarantee that there is an unaltered digital transfer of the original films, cleaned and restored, and all of the new effects and alterations were edited into that using modern digital editing equipment.

It makes zero sense that they would have done it any other way. I'm not even sure that there IS another way they could have done it. He just doesn't want to admit that there's a clean, digital transfer of the original films, and that he's just too much of a petulant, narcissistic douchebag to release it.

I think the most insidious change Lucas made was to remove the blaster (gun) violent deaths from Star Wars.

In the original Star Wars, you remember the scene when they take Chewie to the detention center? And they blast all the Empire guards down there and you can see the blaster shots hit their uniform and blow a flaming hole in it as they roll down the little flight of steps?

Yeah. That's gone in the special editions. All you see is Han shoot, then the guard falling down. No blaster hits. Lucas had methodically removed them all. Maybe 30 seconds total time lost from the film run time, but Jesus what a pussy move on Lucas' part. And yes, that level of graphic realism of someone getting shot (albeit with a fantastical energy weapon) is lost and the edge those action scenes had is gone.

[MattKeil]

Yes. That was a distinction that Hollywood producers have been busy making for the last thirty years...

Ouch. I just hurt myself rolling my eyes so hard.

They have, judging by the lack of influence Star Wars' storytelling style had. Star Wars made huge effects-laden blockbusters the new thing, but fantasy space opera was not part of its influence. It just made it okay to put spaceships in your movie.



I think the most insidious change Lucas made was to remove the blaster (gun) violent deaths from Star Wars.

See, now this is just nerdrage nitpicking in my book. I would never even have noticed this if someone hadn't pointed it out.

[Eric T Cheng]

According to Mark Hamill, he didn't shoot the RotJ deleted scene (http://furiousfanboys.com/2010/08/mark-hamill-says-he-wasnt-in-the-deleted-lightsaber-scene/) where Luke builds a new lightsabre in the Tattooine desert.

[VSys114]

They have, judging by the lack of influence Star Wars' storytelling style had. Star Wars made huge effects-laden blockbusters the new thing, but fantasy space opera was not part of its influence. It just made it okay to put spaceships in your movie.

You obviously are not old enough to remember the glut of space opera tv shows and movies that directly copied Star Wars like Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Battle Beyond the Stars (which actually used old Star Wars sets), Starship Invaders, etc etc etc.

Matt sorry man but your last few posts show you don't really know what you are talking about.

[MattKeil]

According to Mark Hamill, he didn't shoot the RotJ deleted scene (http://furiousfanboys.com/2010/08/mark-hamill-says-he-wasnt-in-the-deleted-lightsaber-scene/) where Luke builds a new lightsabre in the Tattooine desert.

You never see his face clearly, so it would be a candidate for second unit work using a stand-in. The question remains, was that footage from 1982 or 2009?


You obviously are not old enough to remember the glut of space opera tv shows and movies that directly copied Star Wars like Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Battle Beyond the Stars (which actually used old Star Wars sets), Starship Invaders, etc etc etc.

Matt sorry man but your last few posts show you don't really know what you are talking about.

No, I'm entirely correct in that none of what you listed managed to copy Star Wars' sci-fantasy element. They were all sci-fi. This is in part why none of them managed to be successful on the same level. If you'd mentioned Flash Gordon, you'd have had something. But you didn't.

And I'm 34. I remember it just fine.

[Eric T Cheng]

Yeah. That's gone in the special editions. All you see is Han shoot, then the guard falling down. No blaster hits. Lucas had methodically removed them all. Maybe 30 seconds total time lost from the film run time, but Jesus what a pussy move on Lucas' part. And yes, that level of graphic realism of someone getting shot (albeit with a fantastical energy weapon) is lost and the edge those action scenes had is gone.

Eh, there were just explosive squibs that burnt the costumes. That's not very violent compared to all the hands, arms and heads sliced off in the movies.

Don't forget that Spielberg had CG removed the shotguns that FBI agents were carrying in the re-released E.T.

[VSys114]

Eh, there were just explosive squibs that burnt the costumes. That's not very violent compared to all the hands, arms and heads sliced off in the movies.

Don't forget that Spielberg had CG removed the shotguns that FBI agents were carrying in the re-released E.T.

If it was not such a big deal, WHY did Lucas spend the time and money to remove them?

[MattKeil]

If it was not such a big deal, WHY did Lucas spend the time and money to remove them?

My guess would be that he's so ensconced in a bubble of yes-men and unreality (by his own design) that he simply doesn't know which way is up creatively anymore. Probably not a coincidence he made that change around the same time his good friend Spielberg was entering a non-violence/"I hate guns" phase.

[VSys114]

You never see his face clearly, so it would be a candidate for second unit work using a stand-in. The question remains, was that footage from 1982 or 2009?



No, I'm entirely correct in that none of what you listed managed to copy Star Wars' sci-fantasy element. They were all sci-fi. This is in part why none of them managed to be successful on the same level. If you'd mentioned Flash Gordon, you'd have had something. But you didn't.

And I'm 34. I remember it just fine.

They were carbon copies of Star Wars. What are you talking about? Sci-fantasy? Now who is picking nits?

I don't really see your point and earlier you stated Star Wars was not science fiction which is one of the dumbest things I've read in this thread. But if you want to nitpick if some crappy '70s TV show rip off of Star Wars was "Star Warsy" enough to fit your definition go ahead.

[Andrew Mayer]

No, I'm entirely correct in that none of what you listed managed to copy Star Wars' sci-fantasy element. They were all sci-fi. This is in part why none of them managed to be successful on the same level. If you'd mentioned Flash Gordon, you'd have had something. But you didn't.

And I'm 34. I remember it just fine.

If you're saying that nobody bothered to notice the nit you're picking then I agree.

People saw Star Wars, said "SCI FI!" and funded Science Fiction movies.

[Eric T Cheng]

If it was not such a big deal, WHY did Lucas spend the time and money to remove them?

I was saying that it wasn't a big deal for me.

Maybe Lucas wants the blaster shots to be clean and not leave a flaming corpse. Oh wait, I forgot about Luke's aunt and uncle...

[Andrew Mayer]

Spielberg did the same thing when he removed the guns from ET.

[VSys114]

My guess would be that he's so ensconced in a bubble of yes-men and unreality (by his own design) that he simply doesn't know which way is up creatively anymore. Probably not a coincidence he made that change around the same time his good friend Spielberg was entering a non-violence/"I hate guns" phase.

So he decided to remove the squibs because Spielberg told him to? Or because for some reason Lucas was forced to include squibs in Star Wars by the producers and he never wanted them so he went back and "fixed" it and all his "yes men" didn't stop him? What? REALLY?

[MattKeil]

So he decided to remove the squibs because Spielberg told him to? Or because for some reason Lucas was forced to include squibs in Star Wars by the producers and he never wanted them so he went back and "fixed" it and all his "yes men" didn't stop him? What? REALLY?

Neither. I didn't think this was such a hard concept, but I'll spell it out for you: Lucas got old and weird, and decided his films were too violent for (his) children, so he removed some of the firearm violence, since it was too "real" in comparison to the laser sword stuff. I'm not saying it makes sense, but that's what happened. It has nothing to do with the "this is how I always wanted the movie to be" PR line.

[VSys114]

That seems plausible (but does not match with what you said before really) and it bothers me a lot but is apparently not that big a deal to everyone else.

[MattKeil]

Sure it matches. It's part and parcel of how out of touch he had become by the time of the SEs.

[VSys114]

Ok if the missing squibs don't upset you, did you know that Lucas digitally removed Princess Leia's visible panty lines and nipple pokies in the Star Wars SE? ;p

[Eric T Cheng]

When Han finally shoots Greedo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2i0nvnErFU), there's an explosion and a big puff of smoke.

[MattKeil]

Ok if the missing squibs don't upset you, did you know that Lucas digitally removed Princess Leia's visible panty lines and nipple pokies in the Star Wars SE? ;p

See previous explication/speculation on Lucas' state of mind circa 1996.

Also, who cares?

[VSys114]

See previous explication/speculation on Lucas' state of mind circa 1996.

Also, who cares?

It was a joke. Jeez.

[cliffski]

Speaking of which, I remember seeing Jedi and thinking, wow that is a lot of spaceships. Too many.


That just doesn't compute to me.


To be serious though, I once ranted about this big time in a blog. Take a look at how many people fought in the battle of waterloo, then stalingrad, then the d-day landings. Take a look at how many ships and people were involed.
thats 2 nations squabblign over 1 small world.
Now imagine a space empire with 1,000 worlds fighting a war. That's going to be a metric fuckload of spaceships going zap. Way more than you see in any of the films.

[Eric T Cheng]

Now imagine a space empire with 1,000 worlds fighting a war. That's going to be a metric fuckload of spaceships going zap. Way more than you see in any of the films.

Is that a gratuitous plug...?

[MattKeil]

Is that a gratuitous plug...?

Or possibly the origin of the idea. Either way, I agree with him. "Too many spaceships" is a really weird complaint. There were about 3.3 million soldiers on each side during the invasion of France in World War II. An interplanetary battle for all the proverbial marbles would involve tens of millions of combatants at the very least.

[Eric T Cheng]

I was stoked for the opening space battle in Revenge of the Sith, only to be disappointed by how lame it was because the two Jedi casually dealt with the waves of droids.

[Andrew Mayer]

Or possibly the origin of the idea. Either way, I agree with him. "Too many spaceships" is a really weird complaint.

No it's not.

The first Star Wars was based on WW I dogfights. Those hardly involved hundreds of ships, and part of the fun (and the effectiveness) was being able to keep track of the battle tactically while you watched it.

Infantry charges are only interesting if you're invested in the hero characters, and are most effective from the point of view of the defenders. (See LOTR).

[MattKeil]

No it's not.

The first Star Wars was based on WW I dogfights. Those hardly involved hundreds of ships, and part of the fun (and the effectiveness) was being able to keep track of the battle tactically while you watched it.

Infantry charges are only interesting if you're invested in the hero characters, and are most effective from the point of view of the defenders. (See LOTR).

None of this has anything to do with how many spaceships are in the effects shots.

[Jupiter Jones]

I was stoked for the opening space battle in Revenge of the Sith, only to be disappointed by how lame it was because the two Jedi casually dealt with the waves of droids.

...and they never fire a shot.

[John Many Jars]

I love Jedi. Love it. Anyone who doesn't like it is mock-jaded and genetically predisposed to hate fun and furthermore anyone who thinks that big teddy bears would somehow have magically been cooler than little teddy bears is deluded. Is Jedi as good as Empire? No. Is it as good as A New Hope? Nope. Is it a bad film? Not at all.


Did you like the part in Return of the King where Frodo wakes up and the hobbits jump up and down on his bed?

[VSys114]

No it's not.

The first Star Wars was based on WW I dogfights. Those hardly involved hundreds of ships, and part of the fun (and the effectiveness) was being able to keep track of the battle tactically while you watched it.

Infantry charges are only interesting if you're invested in the hero characters, and are most effective from the point of view of the defenders. (See LOTR).

Thanks for crystallizing my point.

The space dogfight and attack on the Death Star was not Lucas' idea. It was stolen shot for shot from "The Dambusters" right down to each fighter signaling "Red 5 standing by" (or whatever the British equivalent was). This put you in the cockpit with the fighters. You cared when Porkins got blown up. This scene worked because Lucas STOLE it whole cloth from another director.

That is what I meant by "Lucas was out of ideas" so he just threw more spaceships at the screen without investing any care in the pilots flying them. That is because Lucas does not know how to shape a scene, let alone make a coherent scene of his own using thousands of spaceships. It may be more "realistic" in terms of actual war, but in cinematic terms it is a mess because Lucas simply does not have the chops to pull it off.

[rowe33]

That just doesn't compute to me.


To be serious though, I once ranted about this big time in a blog. Take a look at how many people fought in the battle of waterloo, then stalingrad, then the d-day landings. Take a look at how many ships and people were involed.
thats 2 nations squabblign over 1 small world.
Now imagine a space empire with 1,000 worlds fighting a war. That's going to be a metric fuckload of spaceships going zap. Way more than you see in any of the films.

This sort of battle would certainly be compelling!!

[VSys114]

This sort of battle would certainly be compelling!!

Maybe if you had David Lean or Akira Kurosawa directing it, not a bland megalomaniac whose mantra is "it is good enough to sell toys".

[MattKeil]

Maybe if you had David Lean or Akira Kurosawa directing it, not a bland megalomaniac whose mantra is "it is good enough to sell toys".

Richard Marquand directed Jedi, not Lucas.

[rowe33]

Maybe if you had David Lean or Akira Kurosawa directing it, not a bland megalomaniac whose mantra is "it is good enough to sell toys".

That was more of a lighthearted jab at cliffski's hatred of 'compelling' than anything else. But I would love to see either of their takes on a massive SW battle. It's always bothered me that a massive space empire made up of hundreds of worlds had to rely on what seemed like a dozen tie fighters to defend its death star.

[VSys114]

Richard Marquand directed Jedi, not Lucas.

I know. Lucas wrote it though and had final say on everything.

But if you want to once again pick nits, look at the space battles in the prequels and compare it to Star Wars: the prequel battles have no emotional investment in the characters' fates, and the "more is better" gives us cluttered confusing scenes.

[VSys114]

That was more of a lighthearted jab at cliffski's hatred of 'compelling' than anything else. But I would love to see either of their takes on a massive SW battle. It's always bothered me that a massive space empire made up of hundreds of worlds had to rely on what seemed like a dozen tie fighters to defend its death star.

To be fair it had to do with hubris, which is explained at the beginning of the film in no uncertain terms. The Empire is convinced the Death Star is indestructible. Why waste resources defending it when it can't be destroyed?

[Rimbo]

He's free to do whatever he wants with his movie. I am free to point out how terrible those things are when the results of those actions are Greedo shooting first and out of place creatures in Mos Eisley. Further, I am free to speculate about George's decision making abilities and dumb-ass-ed-ness.

Frankly, the whole thread should've ended here, because this perfectly sums it all up.


See, this is the problem: Some people would say, "Leave the original movie as is and don't change anything," while others would say, "Don't change the flaws that give the movie character, but change the flaws that were unintentional." The thing is, everyone disagrees on which parts they want to be changed, and which ones they like to remain in their original form. If you remove the matte boxes or fix Vader's lightsaber or keep the stormtrooper from bumping his head, I guarantee you will have people complaining about those changes.

And didn't the recent DVD release have the original original, flaws and all?


so what are you are saying is that we need more in the way of gratuitous space battles? *zing!*

Hahahaha :)


They have, judging by the lack of influence Star Wars' storytelling style had.

wat


The first Star Wars was based on WW I dogfights. Those hardly involved hundreds of ships, and part of the fun (and the effectiveness) was being able to keep track of the battle tactically while you watched it.

Infantry charges are only interesting if you're invested in the hero characters, and are most effective from the point of view of the defenders. (See LOTR).

Now what exactly do you mean by "invested in?" What does this require? Let's say you saw a scene of an infantry charge, from the vantage point of the attackers, right at the beginning of the movie, before you got to know any of the characters (aside from the occasional shot of the principal actor), with no association with them other than knowing they're the "good guys." Would you say that this is not something that would be interesting? I mean, if you were to put this in the hands not of Lucas but of someone actually competent like Spielberg or someone like that.

[VSys114]

Frankly, the whole thread should've ended here, because this perfectly sums it all up.



And didn't the recent DVD release have the original original, flaws and all?



Hahahaha :)



wat



Now what exactly do you mean by "invested in?" What does this require? Let's say you saw a scene of an infantry charge, from the vantage point of the attackers, right at the beginning of the movie, before you got to know any of the characters (aside from the occasional shot of the principal actor), with no association with them other than knowing they're the "good guys." Would you say that this is not something that would be interesting? I mean, if you were to put this in the hands not of Lucas but of someone actually competent like Spielberg or someone like that.

In the case of Star Wars, it is the fact the the BIG BAD SPACESHIP was chasing the LITTLE TINY SHIP and the close ups of the scared looking rebel soldiers vs. the faceless stormtroopers. It is pretty basic cinematic language.

E: not to mention the title scroll explained it all ahead of time.

[cheapfilms]

Old rumor was that Marquand was a ineffectual drunk(not an effectual drunk) and Lucas directed a chunk of Jedi himself.

[Andrew Mayer]

None of this has anything to do with how many spaceships are in the effects shots.

(Wait! I know how to play this game.)

Yes it does. Of course it does.

This may come as a surprise to you, but the audience is most likely invested in characters, and not mobs of things.

[Andrew Mayer]

Now what exactly do you mean by "invested in?" What does this require?

A character.


Let's say you saw a scene of an infantry charge, from the vantage point of the attackers, right at the beginning of the movie, before you got to know any of the characters (aside from the occasional shot of the principal actor), with no association with them other than knowing they're the "good guys." Would you say that this is not something that would be interesting? I mean, if you were to put this in the hands not of Lucas but of someone actually competent like Spielberg or someone like that.

How about the opening of Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan?

At some point, probably sooner rather than later, you have to let the audience know that there is genuinely something at stake. Jedi never felt that way to me.

They were trying to open up a path for the Millenium Falcon to go into the Double Death Star, right? I can't even remember now.

[dermot]

Did you like the part in Return of the King where Frodo wakes up and the hobbits jump up and down on his bed?
Yeah, right up to the point where they didn't have a pillow-fight.

[Rimbo]

How about the opening of Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan?

I was pretty much describing Saving Private Ryan without naming it when I wrote that. :)

I'm just saying that the general critique as you wrote it didn't quite work. I think the problem was the execution, not the setup on its own.

[Andrew Mayer]

I was pretty much describing Saving Private Ryan without naming it when I wrote that. :)

I'm just saying that the general critique as you wrote it didn't quite work. I think the problem was the execution, not the setup on its own.

That's what I was trying to get at by mentioning infantry. An X-wing stumbling around look for it's severed foil doesn't have the same impact as a man looking for his arm.

Dog fights are cool because each ship takes on the personality of the pilot.

[VSys114]

That's what I was trying to get at by mentioning infantry. An X-wing stumbling around look for it's severed foil doesn't have the same impact as a man looking for his arm.

Dog fights are cool because each ship takes on the personality of the pilot.

Exactly. In Star Wars even the Tie Fighter pilots got air time, and I think even some dialog and panic moments when bouncing off the Death Star's trench walls.

[Rimbo]

That's what I was trying to get at by mentioning infantry. An X-wing stumbling around look for it's severed foil doesn't have the same impact as a man looking for his arm.

Dog fights are cool because each ship takes on the personality of the pilot.

Ahh, I get it.

I actually find myself caring about the stakes in Return of the Jedi, though. I'm awed by the size of the battle, and I get the feeling that this is a last desperate attempt to get the Emperor, that if it fails, the Rebellion will be crushed. Even now, when I see the Death Star take out the Calamari Cruisers, I feel like something terrible has happened, that thousands have died, and with the kind of effort expended by the Empire that I would expend squashing a little bug with my foot. I've always gotten a real sense of tension from that scene, maybe because I was young when I saw it.

And it never bothered me that there was a second Death Star. It seemed less like Lucas running out of tricks than the Empire doing so. I'm more bothered by the Ewoks as an adult than I am anything, but I really liked that part as a kid. Today, I see it as just a picture frame around the real masterpiece, which is the scene when Vader turns. (Spoilers?) I really think it's one of the better moments in cinema.

[spatzi]

Who cares about Star Wars? What Lucas should be doing is going back into the vaults and re-doing the Six million dollar man. This is where he stole all his wookie and ewok and robot ideas anyway. Want to preserve my childhood memories? Digitally remove Steve Austin's mustache.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/spatzi/lindsay-lee-bigfoot.jpg

[VSys114]

Ahh, I get it.

I actually find myself caring about the stakes in Return of the Jedi, though. I'm awed by the size of the battle, and I get the feeling that this is a last desperate attempt to get the Emperor, that if it fails, the Rebellion will be crushed. Even now, when I see the Death Star take out the Calamari Cruisers, I feel like something terrible has happened, that thousands have died, and with the kind of effort expended by the Empire that I would expend squashing a little bug with my foot. I've always gotten a real sense of tension from that scene, maybe because I was young when I saw it.

And it never bothered me that there was a second Death Star. It seemed less like Lucas running out of tricks than the Empire doing so. I'm more bothered by the Ewoks as an adult than I am anything, but I really liked that part as a kid. Today, I see it as just a picture frame around the real masterpiece, which is the scene when Vader turns. (Spoilers?) I really think it's one of the better moments in cinema.

Jedi has some wonderful moments:

Yoda's death
Jabba's barge
Speeder bike chase (if you have not seen it in the theater you have not seen it*)
Vader taking Luke prisoner as his father
(*) Final Luke/Vader/Emperor light saber battle
Vader unmasked & death (with Vader theme played on solo plucked violin)
Vader cremation

I just did not think the space battles had the dramatic impact they used to because they were so big, but I loved it when the Death Star 2's reactor slowly collapsed as the Falcon escaped down a tunnel, then shot out on the crest of an explosion. That's good stuff.

[Damien Neil]

I have a somewhat unusual relationship to Star Wars for a geek of my generation, since I didn't see much in the way of movies as a kid. I knew Star Wars was out there, but Return of the Jedi was the first one I saw. I didn't see all of Empire Strikes Back until college.

As such, I'm just not as passionate about the series as many people. I appreciate the original movies as being awesome, and Lucas can go fuck himself for screwing everything up with the rereleases and the prequels, but they aren't defining elements of my childhood.

That said, I think RotJ is a pretty decent addition to the series on its own merits. Yes, the Ewoks are out of character for the series--and Jar-Jar has retroactively diminished them in my eyes--but I thought they were pretty cool as a kid.

And the whole opening act where they rescue Han is pretty damned awesome. Jabba, the Rancor handler, Mercenary Leia, Slave Girl Leia, the Starlacc, Luke in full-on Jedi mode fighting it out atop the barges...all of this is great stuff.

I just don't see wanting to excise it from the series, Ewoks or no Ewoks. There's too much in there that's an iconic part of what defines Star Wars.

Edit: I see that Mr. 114 covered many of my points while I was typing, so here's another one:

"So be it...Jedi."

That's bad-ass, and a perfect end to Luke's character arc.

[Djscman]

And it never bothered me that there was a second Death Star. It seemed less like Lucas running out of tricks than the Empire doing so.

There certainly wasn't a lot of galactic politics in Star Wars:Episode IV: A New Hope as compared to the previous 3 movies; most of it was in the "Vader, release him" boardroom scene. The dialogue between the Imperial Starfleet officers makes it clear that with the Emperor liquidating the Senate, fear of the Death Star would be necessary to keep the thousands of star systems in line. So after the first one was destroyed, of course they'd build a second Death Star. What else could they do to keep the Empire from disintegrating into Rebellion, reinstate the Senate? Force Palpatine to step down to an advisory-only position?

Unlikely, sirs.

[Eric T Cheng]

The first one took a long time to build considering that we saw its skeleton at the end of Episode 3. That's about 18 years. There's about three years difference between the events of A New Hope and Return of the Jedi, so it's safe to say that the second Star Destroyer was already in the works during ANH.

[Rimbo]

slave girl leia, aka "the moment i knew i'd hit puberty"

[Damien Neil]

slave girl leia, aka "the moment i knew i'd hit puberty"

Exactly!

Wanting to deny that to a generation of geeky little boys? Unthinkable, sir! Have you no compassion, no feeling for your fellow man?

[russellmz00]

The first one took a long time to build considering that we saw its skeleton at the end of Episode 3. That's about 18 years. There's about three years difference between the events of A New Hope and Return of the Jedi, so it's safe to say that the second Star Destroyer was already in the works during ANH.

also, the first one is the hardest to build, since you need to build the stuff to actually build it. fleet carriers took 4 or 5 years at the start of wwii, at the end, 18 months. the first nuke took the world's biggest industrial power, the last will be some kid with a physics book, and a bunch of old glow in the dark clocks, and a grudge.



also, put me down as rotj lover.

[VSys114]

Are you speaking of fellowfeel my good sir? For I shall show you a vigorous display of the same if thou would'st drop thine pantaloons

[MattKeil]

The first one took a long time to build considering that we saw its skeleton at the end of Episode 3. That's about 18 years.

Plus they built them totally differently, judging by the skeleton in 3 and the half-built structure in 6.


There's about three years difference between the events of A New Hope and Return of the Jedi, so it's safe to say that the second Star Destroyer was already in the works during ANH.

Dude.

[Eric T Cheng]

Death Star.

Typo!

[Omniscia]

Stop getting Star Trek wrong, Cheng!

[dermot]

Exactly!

Wanting to deny that to a generation of geeky little boys? Unthinkable, sir! Have you no compassion, no feeling for your fellow man?
What could be better than Leia in slave girl outfit? Two Leias!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gCCLfa9SYtM/S8Ob7kwlBPI/AAAAAAAAAM4/uCJBsIIy9_M/s1600/CarrieFisher_and_TraceyEddon.jpg

[Rimbo]

stunt double is way too tall to pass for carrie :)

[Lenkenobi]

I don't think 3D is going to last that long.

/agree

Start making friends with his kids, gang. They're our only hope to seeing Han shoot first again.

-Len

[armand v]

There certainly wasn't a lot of galactic politics in Star Wars:Episode IV: A New Hope as compared to the previous 3 movies; most of it was in the "Vader, release him" boardroom scene.You know what this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcL6DwSufMI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcL6DwSufMI)

[VSys114]

Does anyone else remember the Star Wars disco song from 1977? I made my dad turn up the car stereo for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56ch794M9SM)

[Andrew Mayer]

Does anyone else remember the Star Wars disco song from 1977? I made my dad turn up the car stereo for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56ch794M9SM)

MECO!

They should use this as the credit music for the new TV series.

Also did one for Close Encounters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMq5ZS40Oio)

[VSys114]

MECO!

They should use this as the credit music for the new TV series.

Also did one for Close Encounters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMq5ZS40Oio)

In 1977 that song was literally the only way to hear R2D2 and blaster sounds besides going to see Star Wars. There was no internet, no VCR, nothing. Just.. MECO

[Omniscia]

In 1977 that song was literally the only way to hear R2D2 and blaster sounds besides going to see Star Wars. There was no internet, no VCR, nothing. Just.. MECO

And by literally you mean figuratively, right? Surely "The Story of Star Wars" LP included a blaster effect or two. And at some point, Ken Films released a color/sound version of Star Wars on 8mm film. I have a copy of the black-and-white, silent 8mm version.

[John Many Jars]

Not to mention that Star Wars Disco LP.

[Omniscia]

What happened to movie-themed novelty songs, anyway?

[awdougherty]

From what I've read, it sounds like this will only be a six film set, so to get the original three I need to buy the recent three? That makes for a tricky decision, I've vowed to never to give Lucas more money for the prequels but I wouldn't mind having the originals on blu-ray.

As for the Fuck Star Wars, I've thought about digitizing the original and tweaked versions of A New Hope and Jedi. Dropping in the old Han shoots first, taking out the music video from Jedi (I actually think Empire is fine either way) and seeing what happens. I guess I'd be nervous about music cues or something not lining up, but oh well.

But as for the apologists who say Lucas can do whatever he wants with his movies, I sort of agree. What always bothered me though is that George wasn't willing to accept how the original film looked because the FX didn't exist to realize his vision, but he is willing to accept the total ass FX in the most controversial scenes. Greedo shooting first involves Han experiencing a poorly handled broken neck. Han talking to Jabba required them to make it seem like Han stepped on the tail. Neither work on any level of acceptability for a professional film, yet the purest inside Lucas OK'd those. I don't get how the old look could bother him so much, but the new, even worse look of these shots doesn't. He should have seen it, realized it didn't work, and just accept that the footage wasn't there to do what he wanted.

Of course, the music video was meant to give some more depth to the Jabba setting, and Greedo shooting first completely scuttles how that scene sets up Han's character for the rest of the trilogy... so I guess it's further evidence that George isn't a good story teller. I guess it did give us that.

[VSys114]

And by literally you mean figuratively, right? Surely "The Story of Star Wars" LP included a blaster effect or two. And at some point, Ken Films released a color/sound version of Star Wars on 8mm film. I have a copy of the black-and-white, silent 8mm version.

And by figuratively I mean subjectively, as I did have the SW soundtrack double LP with the gatefold photos, and I of course supplied my own sound effects and special effects, aka flying my cardboard Star Destroyer out of the closet (docking bay).

[Andrew Mayer]

You wanted Star Wars sound effects in '77, you went back to the theater!

[VSys114]

If you lived near power lines, whacking the support cable elicits the PEW PEW PEW sound (I believe that is what they actually used in the film).

[MattKeil]

Yup, that's exactly what they used. Star Wars may be the greatest collection of "found" sound effects in film.

[Ben Sones]

The lead sound guy for the Star Wars films went to Syracuse University, and one of the sounds he used in the films comes from standing in one of the tall grooves on the outside wall of the Carrier Dome and stomping your feet. When I was at SU, they called this the "freshman stomp." It was used for a certain laser effect in the films, and if you go and do it for yourself, you will instantly recognize the sound.

[VSys114]

I believe the Tie Fighter sound was a recording of baby elephants screaming.

Then again it is almost de-rigor to use natural sounds in effects these days. In Jurassic Park the dinosaur sounds were made by mixed geese, lion, elephant, walrus, etc etc sounds together. More recently in Splice they sound effects dept decided to NOT use natural sounds for the alien girl.

[Eric T Cheng]

How did Ben Burtt make the baby elephants scream?!

[Damien Neil]

He whispered in their ear stories about what Episodes 1-3 would be like.

[VSys114]

He whispered in their ear stories about what Episodes 1-3 would be like.

What you are hearing when tie fighters fly by are baby elephants screaming "NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

[Alan Dunkin]

Yeah, Burtt is a master.

Also, the voice of Wall-E.

--- Alan

[Austin Arlitt]

Also, the voice of Wall-E.
I'm strongly tempted to prefer Wall-E to R2-D2 for that very reason.

Also, isn't the PEW PEW sound a recording of a metal slinky suspended from a ladder, not a power line support cable? I imagine they're very close anyway.

[krayzkrok]

Also, isn't the PEW PEW sound a recording of a metal slinky suspended from a ladder, not a power line support cable? I imagine they're very close anyway.

It's definitely a power support cable. I have a documentary somewhere showing Ben Burrt and another sound guy demonstrating it by whacking one with a large wrench.

[Hans Lauring]

I remember the extra material on the Terminator 2 LaserDisc showed how Arnies shotgun was a mix between a shotgun and a civil war canon fired in a canyon and his Harley has a lions roar mixed in.
I also remember hearing the power cable bit.

[Telefrog]

I remember the documentary with Burtt whacking on the cable. They also showed how the Millenium Falcon's engine is a busted hotel air conditioner.

[VSys114]

I remember the documentary with Burtt whacking on the cable. They also showed how the Millenium Falcon's engine is a busted hotel air conditioner.

Every time I think about how much fun it would be to be a sound editor for big Hollywood movies, I remember that for every Star Wars I would have to do the sound for a dozen craptacular Transformers 2-type films as well.

[Austin Arlitt]

It's definitely a power support cable. I have a documentary somewhere showing Ben Burrt and another sound guy demonstrating it by whacking one with a large wrench.

Ben Burtt LIED to me in the Wall-E documentary! He demonstrated on a slinky & said it was that.

[VSys114]

Ben Burtt LIED to me in the Wall-E documentary! He demonstrated on a slinky & said it was that.

They might have used different sounds for different weapons. The Death Star plant destroying laser sounds different than Princess Leia's little stun gun. :]

[Zylon]

What happened to movie-themed novelty songs, anyway?
What happened to novelty songs, period?

[Woolen Horde]

What happened to novelty songs, period?

Here's One! (http://www.nbc.com/30-rock/video/werewolf-bar-mitzvah/172301/)

[Rob_Merritt]

What happened to novelty songs, period?

They went main stream:

http://img.cooga.net/videos-handheld-lady-gaga-poker-face-ipod-psp-zune-805026.jpg

[VSys114]

What happened to novelty songs, period?

Weird Al is still recording AFAIK.

[RLMullen]

Since the thread turned into a bit of a nostalgia trip:

I was in between 6th and 7th grade during the summer of 1977. Like someone said earlier, I was the target demographic when that movie came out, and memories of it are big part of my childhood. The funny thing is I couldn't care less about the changes in the SE. Star Wars was a much bigger part of life than whether Greedo shot first. From my recollection Greedo didn't shoot at all... Han just blasted the bastard as was his right!

The thing that sticks in my mind is movies don't get "held over" anymore. Today a movie hits the theater for its part of the movie season, and a few months later you are buying the DVD, and then it hits Netflix. When Star Wars was released there was no consumer market for video tape -- the machines were there, but they were prohibitively expensive. At that time the only way to see a theatrical release was to wait for HBO to get it, and big movies *didn't* go to HBO. The result was that movies stayed in theaters much longer, and sometimes they were re-released into theaters years later.

I remember scanning the theater ads in the local paper one morning. When I checked the ad for the Imperial VI - a six screen multiplex - there was the Star Wars ad with the text "HELD OVER FOR THE 108th BIG WEEK!!" Star Wars played in that theater constantly for more than two years!

I don't think any movie or movie franchise has every become as integrated into popular culture the way that Star Wars did. I'm not sure the feat will or can be repeated.

[Eric T Cheng]

I remember scanning the theater ads in the local paper one morning. When I checked the ad for the Imperial VI - a six screen multiplex - there was the Star Wars ad with the text "HELD OVER FOR THE 108th BIG WEEK!!" Star Wars played in that theater constantly for more than two years!

At 108 weeks, most of the money from ticket sales goes directly to the theatre. Pure profit!

[Rimbo]

They might have used different sounds for different weapons. The Death Star plant destroying laser sounds different than Princess Leia's little stun gun. :]

http://media.mercola.com/ImageServer/public/2008/September/9.13roundup.jpg

[Alan Dunkin]

Oh, and Burtt is the original voice of Boba Fett if I recall correctly.

--- Alan

[MattKeil]

Oh, and Burtt is the original voice of Boba Fett if I recall correctly.

--- Alan

Nope, Fett's voice in ESB and RotJ was Jason Wingreen.

[Omniscia]

Nope, Fett's voice in ESB and RotJ was Jason Wingreen.

But who voiced him in the Star Wars Holiday Special?

Seriously, who? I don't know.

Oh, Don Francks. Whoever he is.

[VSys114]

But who voiced him in the Star Wars Holiday Special?

Seriously, who? I don't know.

Oh, Don Francks. Whoever he is.

I thought it was Don Rickles. He did call Darth Vader a hockey puck.

[bluemax]

/agree

Start making friends with his kids, gang. They're our only hope to seeing Han shoot first again.

-Len

I was in college with his daughter, I think one of my roommates ran into her at a party.

[Robert Sharp]

Is that a euphemism?

[Woolen Horde]

Lucas to covert original trilogy to 3D (http://www.deadline.com/2010/09/lucasfilm-converting-star-wars-saga-to-3d/)

Fuck you, George.

[Jarmo]

Yeah, their PR department sucks at that covert stuff, you're absolutely right to be incensed.

[Brian Rubin]

Lucas to covert original trilogy to 3D (http://www.deadline.com/2010/09/lucasfilm-converting-star-wars-saga-to-3d/)

Fuck you, George.
Oh my god, seriously. Can't he just leave well enough alone? Stop raping my childhood, Lucas.

[WarrenM]

You don't have to watch them. Just FYI...

[Brian Rubin]

Oh, and I likely won't, but every time something like this surfaces, it bubbles up the anger and sadness of what's happened to a franchise I once adored and now mostly despise.

[Bluto]

Seriously, who is going to pay to see Phantom Menace in the theater again?

(I'm afraid of the answer)

[jason]

Lots and lots of people.

[Enduro_Man]

It all depends on whether they show the extended pod race.

[sinnick]

Lots and lots of people.

A lot of people will refuse to go as well, though:

http://i.imgur.com/hOFpB.jpg

[Brian Rubin]

I agree with Mr. Delaney. I totally am not going to see this, but sadly I know lots of saps who will. Sigh.

[Eric T Cheng]

I wish he would just fix the cheap looking 1997 CGI done for the original trilogy. I read that ILM spent very little time and money on it. I saw the re-release of A New Hope in 1997 and good lord the CG C-3PO on the landspeeder was like 2000 polys, which was very noticeable on the big screen.

[Eric T Cheng]

I agree with Mr. Delaney. I totally am not going to see this, but sadly I know lots of saps who will. Sigh.

What pisses me off is that he's doing this after seeing Avatar. Oddly enough, James Cameron is against the current fad of 3D movies because most of the 3D movies are doing the 3D as a post-production gimmick to get the extra $3 bucks.

[Omniscia]

What pisses me off is that he's doing this after seeing Avatar. Oddly enough, James Cameron is against the current fad of 3D movies because most of the 3D movies are doing the 3D as a post-production gimmick to get the extra $3 bucks.

But didn't he announce this years ago? Wasn't it supposed to have happened by 2007, for the 30th anniversary?

[MattKeil]

A lot of people will refuse to go as well, though:

Not enough to matter.

[Bluto]

Not enough to matter.

Sadly, I think you're right.

[Hanacker]

What possible downside is there to a decently done 3D version of Star Wars? It's not like he's changing it so that Han Solo shoots his laser gun first. It's just a 3D version. Skip it if it bothers you. Kids might actually enjoy it.

[rhinohelix]

Oh my god, seriously. Can't he just leave well enough alone? Stop raping my childhood, Lucas.

I can't wait for the smell-o-vision version, where I can smell the decaying swamp of Dagoba, the stench of the garbage compactor, the rancor's fetid breath, or bantha poo-do cooking in the Tatooine sun.

[MattKeil]

THIS MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND...WHAT AN INCREDIBLE SMELL YOU'LL DISCOVER!

[alexlitel]

He wants to distract people from how terrible the prequels are.

[MattKeil]

By...making people watch them again?

[alexlitel]

By...making people watch them again?No, the 3D is a distraction. Like the novelty of 3D and Avatar.

[MattKeil]

So what was the distraction when they weren't in 3D and made a billion dollars anyway?

The mass audience and the younger generation likes the Star Wars prequels. The detractors are vocal nerds on the internet. These are the people who made Revenge of the Fallen a hit, remember.

[Telefrog]

So what was the distraction when they weren't in 3D and made a billion dollars anyway?

The mass audience and the younger generation likes the Star Wars prequels. The detractors are vocal nerds on the internet. These are the people who made Revenge of the Fallen a hit, remember.

This. Sorry, guys, but the Star Wars franchise has passed you by. My kids love the prequel movies. They like the originals, but I suspect it's only because of their mother and father's enthusiasm for the films and the universe overall.

The things we find ridiculous and clumsy are awesome to them. They love the clones. They like Jar Jar. They think Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is totally believable. CG Yoda hopping around like a frog on crack was badass. Young Anakin was cool. Order 66 made complete sense. Etc, etc...

At any rate, I've learned to accept it. I can hold the originals dear in my heart while my kids can go nuts over the CG techno-vomit of the prequels. I just think back to when I was a kid and I have to assume that this is how my parents felt about my love for Star Wars.

[nixon66]

But Telefrog. You can also be a good parent and just pretend the prequels don't exsist for as long as possible. Eventually I will have to acknowledge them yes, but so far I've managed to get him to think the originals plus the Clone Wars cartoon are it! Sigh. I know it won't last. But I can hope.

[MattKeil]

Are you guys serious when you say things like that? Because I find it really creepy.

[Shieldwolf]

I can see the conversation when your son discovers the truth.

Son: Dad, Tommy told me there were actually 6 Star Wars movies, but you've only ever shown me 3.

Nixon66: The good Star Wars movies you know were seduced by the dark side. When that happened they ceased being Star Wars films and became toy marketing trash. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.

[nixon66]

Honestly it's more in a joking tone. We just haven't gotten around to them yet and I'm in no rush. Maybe I'll like the pod race or something again. It's worth a shot!

[MattKeil]

I was just hoping to confirm the joking tone. It's just that every kid I know loves the prequels as much as or more than the originals. Seems dubious to deny a kid a movie he might enjoy so much just because you don't like it as an adult. Hell, watching stuff I loved as a kid today, I wonder if my parents thought there was something wrong with me.

[Zylon]

It's just that every kid I know loves the prequels as much as or more than the originals.
Because the prequels ARE children's movies. Unlike the original trilogy, which appealed to the proverbial kids of all ages.

[VSys114]

I was just hoping to confirm the joking tone. It's just that every kid I know loves the prequels as much as or more than the originals. Seems dubious to deny a kid a movie he might enjoy so much just because you don't like it as an adult. Hell, watching stuff I loved as a kid today, I wonder if my parents thought there was something wrong with me.


It is true. My nieces love Yoda but I don't think they have seen the originals.

[nixon66]

Hell, watching stuff I loved as a kid today, I wonder if my parents thought there was something wrong with me.

In keeping with the Star Wars theme - never ever try watching the Ewok Movie again. It's proof of the above statement.

[Major Malphunktion]

This. Sorry, guys, but the Star Wars franchise has passed you by. My kids love the prequel movies. They like the originals, but I suspect it's only because of their mother and father's enthusiasm for the films and the universe overall.

The things we find ridiculous and clumsy are awesome to them. They love the clones. They like Jar Jar. They think Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is totally believable. CG Yoda hopping around like a frog on crack was badass. Young Anakin was cool. Order 66 made complete sense. Etc, etc...

At any rate, I've learned to accept it. I can hold the originals dear in my heart while my kids can go nuts over the CG techno-vomit of the prequels. I just think back to when I was a kid and I have to assume that this is how my parents felt about my love for Star Wars.

This. I've got a 5 and 8 year old, and if you watch through their eyes and not grown up eyes, they are not terrible. I actually like the last one better than RotJ. I must be a criminal.
Same goes for Clone Wars...sorry but we would have killed to have a Star Wars cartoon half as good...we had..Droids.
Granted, my kids will also point out that ESB is awesome, and the whole series needs more Bounty Hunters that actually do something other than stand around and die...

If you are bitter and have no interest in sitting through them again, that is totally cool. But it is not for you, it is for the next generation of viewers. Lucas learned from the Disney model, release every 10 years and suck in another generation.

As for the sanctity of the Special Edition. If that is Lucas vision, then so be it. Sorry, but ultimately it is his, and he can fuck with it however he wants. Sure in film he is the first to revise his former works, but this isn't unheard of in other mediums. You may disagree with what he did, but that comes back to just don't support him. My kids don't give a shit if Greedo shot first or not. Personally I don't really care either.

I just don't have anger towards George. Why should I? Because he changed one scene I didn't agree with? A couple of bad films? Bullshit. His creation has given me more joy over the past 30 years than any other fictional universe, which totally outshines any disagreement I have had in some of his editorial decisions. His creation i 'll point out he has been very gracious and allowing others to play in, books,parody, fan films, games, MODs, music , even porn, without going after them.He could run around and shut them all down. People are even out there making a profit of his stuff like nerd T-Shirts and stuff. Trust me, other licenses are not as kind-try working with Tolkien, and I hear horror stories of working under J.K. Rowling. Did you know she will not allow any stories-including fan fiction- in the HP universe? A bit different than Mr. Lucas huh?

[MattKeil]

This. I've got a 5 and 8 year old, and if you watch through their eyes and not grown up eyes, they are not terrible. I actually like the last one better than RotJ. I must be a criminal.

I'll see you in the joint, then, because I also like RotS better than RotJ. I never liked RotJ much, even when I saw it opening day at 7 years old.

[Anaxagoras]

and I hear horror stories of working under J.K. Rowling. Did you know she will not allow any stories-including fan fiction- in the HP universe? A bit different than Mr. Lucas huh?
So Rowling actually cares about her creation, while Lucas lets any random schlub write (shitty) fanfic. And this is a strike against Rowling? I don't really care about Lucas one way or another, since I was never that into Star Wars, but I must say: your arguments confuse me.

[Dufresne]

Right. If Lucas actually cared about the story to Star Wars, he'd monitor his canon to the same extent as Tolkein or Rowling. Instead, he lets all the "Expanded Universe" stuff go on. The EU would be fine if it A) didn't contradict itself at every other turn, and B) wasn't prone to de-canonization every time Lucas decided to make another movie or TV show.

Rowling shuts down "incorrect" stories about the world she's created. Lucas lets them fester as long as they make him money. Oh, what's that? You actually paid for that book? Sorry, it's wrong. Forget about it.

Though what makes it even worse is of the the three or four contradictory Boba Fett origin stories I read, every single one was better than Lucas' "real" version.

[Pogo]

I can't wait for the smell-o-vision version, where I can smell the decaying swamp of Dagoba, the stench of the garbage compactor, the rancor's fetid breath, or bantha poo-do cooking in the Tatooine sun.

Uhh... then how about you just come watch it in the theaters of bumblefuck North Carolina?

[Andrew Mayer]

My kids don't give a shit if Greedo shot first or not. Personally I don't really care either.

Admitting that your understanding of character and storytelling is equivalent to that of your children isn't really supporting your argument.

[Major Malphunktion]

Admitting that your understanding of character and storytelling is equivalent to that of your children isn't really supporting your argument.

I know about both just fine, and yes I get what some people see as a complete breakdown of the character because of that one scene...I just think that is typical nerd navel gazing bullshit.
Breaking down substandard storytelling is not hard. Lucas writing ability is like shooting fish in a barrel. I guess I just choose not to get all fired up about it. Star Wars works because it is like a Monet. From far away and just looking at it works, get close..it turns into a mess. Some things are just meant to be experienced, not analyzed. It will never hold up to critical scrutiny. Star Wars is not the Godfather.


So Rowling actually cares about her creation, while Lucas lets any random schlub write (shitty) fanfic. And this is a strike against Rowling? I don't really care about Lucas one way or another, since I was never that into Star Wars, but I must say: your arguments confuse me.

Lucas figured out it was bigger than him, bigger than the 6 movies and has allowed other writers ,creators and his fans to have fun with it. That is a bad thing? How's this...if Lucas was like JK, then the following would never be made:

Clone Wars cartoon (both versions)
Dark forces-all of them
Knights of the Old Republic
TIE Fighter
Comics
Christmas Tauntauns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-eRyp5e0A)
TROOPS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocmVZXXY8w)
I remember when Troops came out people were very afraid of being sued. Lucas said he liked it..and liked it so much he created a Star Wars fan movie contest on Atomic Films.
EU Books--in some cases this is not a bad thing, but there are a handful that are worthy. Really it was some of these stores are what got people so pissed that E I-II did not live up to them.


Would you have missed any of them? Do you know why there has not been a good original Harry Potter game? One that you are not rehashing the story...again? Is this good for the universe if it is going to grow beyond what it is? Unless she wrote it-NO NEW STORIES in the universe except from her pen. I get why she does this. I just think it is a bad call. She is done..or so she says. Let people enjoy themselves in her wonderful world or after the next movie HP slowly dies from the collective consciousness and grows dust on our kids bookshelves.

[MattKeil]

Would you have missed any of them? Do you know why there has not been a good original Harry Potter game? One that you are not rehashing the story...again? Is this good for the universe if it is going to grow beyond what it is? Unless she wrote it-NO NEW STORIES in the universe except from her pen. I get why she does this. I just think it is a bad call. She is done..or so she says. Let people enjoy themselves in her wonderful world or after the next movie HP slowly dies from the collective consciousness and grows dust on our kids bookshelves.

Yeah, just like all those other forgotten finite series, like Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Alice's Adventures, the Oz books, the Willy Wonka books...if only there'd been a Little House on the Prairie Expanded Universe to prevent Wilder's characters from languishing in obscurity!

C'mon, dude. Harry Potter will be around forever, even if it's just the movies and the books. Considering the vast majority of Potter fanfiction is dedicated to making various male characters fuck Draco Malfoy and/or Snape, I'd say she's got the right idea.

[Anaxagoras]

Lucas figured out it was bigger than him, bigger than the 6 movies and has allowed other writers ,creators and his fans to have fun with it. That is a bad thing?
It's not "bigger than him", and yes, that's a bad thing. It's just a story. Granted, stories can be incredibly powerful, but they don't become more powerful by allowing the unwashed masses to drool all over them and introduce ridiculous nonsense into them.


How's this...if Lucas was like JK, then the following would never be made:

Clone Wars cartoon (both versions)
Dark forces-all of them
Knights of the Old Republic
TIE Fighter
Comics
Christmas Tauntauns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-eRyp5e0A)
TROOPS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocmVZXXY8w)

With the exception of TIE Fighter, it would have been better if that crap hadn't been made. And who made TIE Fighter? LucasArts. As terrible as Lucas' ear for storytelling is, (when he's not being edited & reined in by others) the stuff that came out of his studio was *still* miles beyond the dreck that most people produced.



Do you know why there has not been a good original Harry Potter game? One that you are not rehashing the story...again? Is this good for the universe if it is going to grow beyond what it is?
It doesn't *need* to "grow beyond what it is". The Tolkien universe is amazingly rich without fucking fanfic. Rudyard Kipling's stories are still very powerful despite the fact that we haven't plumbed the adventures of Mowgli's second uncle twice removed. I don't regret that I never found out more about the life & times of Sherlock Holmes' maid. Well fleshed out universes aren't made better by having hacks scrape over the dead carcass of the original novels for story ideas.

And if the series slowly ages and fades from out consciousness... let it. That's the natural progression of things. Rewarming the same fucking universe over & over again is not a good thing. Every generation has their own stories that they learn to treasure & value.

You seem to have a fundamental problem with the fact that things age, fade, and die. That's life. That's the way things go. You don't prolong the life of a literary universe by allowing hacks in. You just create franchise zombies largely devoid of soul. Financially it's a smart move by the progenitor of the franchise. But from the viewpoint of a reader, there's no reason to value that kind of bastardization.



She is done..or so she says. Let people enjoy themselves in her wonderful world or after the next movie HP slowly dies from the collective consciousness and grows dust on our kids bookshelves.
They can enjoy themselves... by reading her books.

[Pogo]

Admitting that your understanding of character and storytelling is equivalent to that of your children isn't really supporting your argument.

You think you can be a bit more pretentious over this crap? I never cared about who shot first when I first saw the movie, other than that a shot went off and then shit hit the fan, and Han Solo wins. Kids will not care, and ultimately it will not matter, because even if Han doesn't shoot first, the alien is seen as instigating that fight either way.

99% of people do not give a shit about who shot first. There are plenty of other (unchanged) examples of Han Solo being established as a reckless amoral smuggler that transitions into a somewhat-moral-but-still-an-asshole smuggler.

[MattKeil]

With the exception of TIE Fighter, it would have been better if that crap hadn't been made.

Can't agree with that. KotOR is some of the better storytelling done in the universe, and Clone Wars is probably the best Star Wars anything made since Empire. If the prequels had been more like Clone Wars, they'd have been vastly superior films.

Two bright lights in a vast sea of darkness, though, no argument there.

[Anaxagoras]

Can't agree with that. KotOR is some of the better storytelling done in the universe, and Clone Wars is probably the best Star Wars anything made since Empire. If the prequels had been more like Clone Wars, they'd have been vastly superior films.

Two bright lights in a vast sea of darkness, though, no argument there.

You're right... KotOR was pretty good. My bad.

(I didn't like Clone Wars much, although you're right again in that the prequels would have been better if they had been more like that.)

[Zylon]

Clone Wars cartoon (both versions)
Dark forces-all of them
Knights of the Old Republic
TIE Fighter
Comics
Christmas Tauntauns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-eRyp5e0A)
TROOPS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocmVZXXY8w)
A fine list except for Christmas Tauntauns, which is extinction-level glurge. Let's substitute Hardware Wars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlFOiFLLd0g) or TIE-Tanic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsvj0TmBlO4) in there.

[RyanMichael]

Because the prequels ARE children's movies. Unlike the original trilogy, which appealed to the proverbial kids of all ages.

Best children's movies ever.

http://imgur.com/Or1OP.jpg

[Zylon]

Granted, they're not good children's movies. Yet children apparently loved them anyway.

It is a conundrum.

[DennyA]

Every time I hear someone say their kids prefer the prequels, I hug my 8-year old "There are only three Star Wars movies, and they all have Han Solo in them" kid.

He's not even into Clone Wars, which even I'll watch if the DVR is devoid of new stuff.

I wouldn't even really have a problem with them adapting the Real Star Wars Movies to 3D. But he's starting with the prequels, so if people do stay away, that'll keep them from doing the good ones.

[MattKeil]

I don't think anything is going to prevent Lucas from doing them all, really. Even if the prequels somehow bomb in 3D (not going to happen), he'd still be very aware that the OT is a major draw. If they all make money, Lucas has no problems. If the prequels don't make money, the OT is guaranteed to. They'll get done either way.

[Andrew Mayer]

You think you can be a bit more pretentious over this crap?

Sure. Can you define what you mean by "crap" in this case?


I never cared about who shot first when I first saw the movie, other than that a shot went off and then shit hit the fan, and Han Solo wins.

Let's get pretentious: There's a term called "synergy". It means that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

With him shooting first, Han isn't a good guy with a coating that needs to be rubbed away, he's a complicated character, and if it wasn't for meeting Ben Kenobi and Luke he would probably have come to a bad end.

He is, in some way, a man in need of redemption, and is transformed by the journey into someone better.


Kids will not care, and ultimately it will not matter, because even if Han doesn't shoot first, the alien is seen as instigating that fight either way.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. It wasn't kids alone that made it the biggest film of all time.

Part of the fun of the movie was that there was more going on than the kids could totally understand the first time they saw it, and it actually told a challenging story.

There's really no genuine character development in the prequels. Certainly nothing worth watching the films for.


99% of people do not give a shit about who shot first.

Just because someone doesn't understand the effect of something doesn't mean that it's not effective.

More to the point, if it doesn't matter, then why did Lucas change it? He knew what he was doing when he put it in, and he knew what he was doing by taking it out.


There are plenty of other (unchanged) examples of Han Solo being established as a reckless amoral smuggler that transitions into a somewhat-moral-but-still-an-asshole smuggler.

What are they? Smack-talking?

It dumbs it down, just a little bit.

[MattKeil]

More to the point, if it doesn't matter, then why did Lucas change it? He knew what he was doing when he put it in, and he knew what he was doing by taking it out.

This is the key. It cost Lucas a lot of money to change that shot (twice). He didn't do it because he was bored one day, he made a conscious change to the character of Han Solo. Hell, there are pictures of him on the set of Attack of the Clones wearing a "Han Shot First" t-shirt. He knows what he did.

[Anaxagoras]

There's a term called "synergy". It means that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
That's not what synergy means, although it's close. However, synergy has nothing to do with your argument, such as it is.

[Cormac]

If I wanted to give Clone Wars a chance, should I start with the movie or rather just with the TV series?

[Jarmo]

arguing about Star Wars

http://www.fabianjochenkanzler.de/files/gimgs/12_stever320x30.jpg