Fuck Star Wars (Blu-Ray This Time)

[Jarmo]

If I wanted to give Clone Wars a chance, should I start with the movie or rather just with the TV series?

YMMV, but I didn't care for the movie much. The first season of the TV series has been OK as light mindless entertainment. I didn't notice needing to have seen the movie to understand the series.

There was enough of a gap between viewing the movie and the series that I can't directly compare them. I don't remember almost anything about the movie even though I saw it in a theatre, which is probably telling.

[MattKeil]

If I wanted to give Clone Wars a chance, should I start with the movie or rather just with the TV series?

The first 2/3 of the movie are pretty good. The last third, when they are returning the baby Hutt to Jabba and there's this incredibly contrived plot complication where Padme manages to get kidnapped, that's not so good. The main series has highs and lows, but overall it's a surprisingly well-written collection of (mostly) standalone stories set in what is a far more interesting set of circumstances than ever presented in the prequel films.

The episodes that focus specifically on individual clonetroopers are generally my favorites, as they play around with what it would mean to be raised the way they are. It's surprisingly brutal in places, including a Separatist droid device specifically designed to pop open Republic escape pods and expose the occupants to hard vacuum, and a few instances of clonetroopers getting done in execution style by the more competent droids. The final episode of Season 1 also introduces Cad Bane, a bounty hunter who is basically Lee Van Cleef from The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. He brings the Western element back to Star Wars exceptionally well, and actually is the badass so many fans inexplicably believe Boba Fett to be.

Clone Wars is, to me, Star Wars stripped down to its bare essentials: Action, adventure, cliffhangers, heroes and villains all set in a tremendously compelling universe.

[Andrew Mayer]

The first time I tried to watch Clone Wars it was a Jar Jar episode where his buffoonery results in numerous deaths and then everyone has a good laugh at the end when his buffoonery "saves the day".

I've heard there are some other episodes that are much better.

[Andrew Mayer]

That's not what synergy means, although it's close. However, synergy has nothing to do with your argument, such as it is.

Then let me make a clearer argument:
Han Solo worked as a unique character because of a number of key scenes in the movie, of which I think the shooting scene was one.

Without it he's just another "rogue with a heart of gold", and there's no genuine transformation at the end of the film.

Jarmo:
I'm less arguing about Star Wars than I am about character development in the context of Star Wars.
Yes, you can make movies without genuine character development, and they can make money, but it's dumb to argue that it's okay because children still like them. "Star Wars Babies" wouldn't have been a cultural phenomenon.

[Zylon]

It's highly unfortunate that Star Wars "Clone Wars" and "The Clone Wars" have such nearly-identical names.

[Jarmo]

I'm less arguing about Star Wars than I am about character development in the context of Star Wars.

I'm in your corner, there. The posted picture is admittedly ambiguous, that's what I like about it.

[Zylon]

What's ambiguous about it? It's an Imperial pilot kicked back in his futuristic living room reading the paper.

[Cormac]

It's highly unfortunate that Star Wars "Clone Wars" and "The Clone Wars" have such nearly-identical names.

So you're saying there's a difference?

Ah... Just checked Wikipedia. I gather "Clone Wars" is the old series and "The Clone Wars" is the new series? So which one is the decent one? I assume the latter series?

[Anaxagoras]

Then let me make a clearer argument:
Han Solo worked as a unique character because of a number of key scenes in the movie, of which I think the shooting scene was one.

Without it he's just another "rogue with a heart of gold", and there's no genuine transformation at the end of the film.

I don't think Han Solo *was* a unique character. He was a standard loner archetype that Americans love so dearly. Not quite a "rogue with a heart of gold", but rather a "rogue that's supremely loyal to his friends". I didn't see much character development in him at all; he's loyal to his friends (Chewbacca) at the beginning of the series, and he's still loyal to them at the end. The only change is that he picks up new friends. (and more of them)

He's a fun character, but there's not much too him.

The shooting first thing is a stupid change, but it's stupid largely because it makes Han less plausible. A smuggler that's not willing to shoot first wouldn't last long.

[dermot]

I've been a Star Wars fan for years but not being a Star Wars *dork* I didn't even know that Lucas had switched the first shooter in that scene until years after the fact when I came across the latent nerd-rage on the internet.

[dermot]

So you're saying there's a difference?

Ah... Just checked Wikipedia. I gather "Clone Wars" is the old series and "The Clone Wars" is the new series? So which one is the decent one? I assume the latter series?
The old series was actually quite good, not sure about the new series. My son is still a little too young for Star Wars (though I'm already sowing the seeds - he has a Star Wars t-shirt that he loves).

[Zylon]

I've been a Star Wars fan for years but not being a Star Wars *dork* I didn't even know that Lucas had switched the first shooter in that scene until years after the fact when I came across the latent nerd-rage on the internet.
"Latent" does not mean what you think it means. Spaz.

[Pogo]

What are they? Smack-talking?

It dumbs it down, just a little bit.

His expectation to be rewarded for his loyalty is pretty damn significant, and is more likely the thing that is remembered about his character than if he shot first, mostly because him shooting first happened quickly enough that most people (such as myself) don't even know the significance of it the first time they see the movie (or even subsequent times).

[dermot]

"Latent" does not mean what you think it means. Spaz.
You're right, I meant 'vigourous'. Pork features.

[VSys114]

I don't think Han Solo *was* a unique character. He was a standard loner archetype that Americans love so dearly. Not quite a "rogue with a heart of gold", but rather a "rogue that's supremely loyal to his friends". I didn't see much character development in him at all; he's loyal to his friends (Chewbacca) at the beginning of the series, and he's still loyal to them at the end. The only change is that he picks up new friends. (and more of them)

He's a fun character, but there's not much too him.

The shooting first thing is a stupid change, but it's stupid largely because it makes Han less plausible. A smuggler that's not willing to shoot first wouldn't last long.

Not to mention Greedo. What kind of a bounty hunter misses from three feet away?

[MattKeil]

So you're saying there's a difference?

Ah... Just checked Wikipedia. I gather "Clone Wars" is the old series and "The Clone Wars" is the new series? So which one is the decent one? I assume the latter series?

Other way around. The Clone Wars is the traditional animation series by the guy who did Samurai Jack. Clone Wars is the CG series currently airing. They're both good, but extremely different takes on the subject matter. I believe The Clone Wars has been retconned into "legends" told of the Clone Wars by civilians due to its over-the-top portrayal of Force powers and such.

[Zylon]

Other way around. The Clone Wars is the traditional animation series by the guy who did Samurai Jack. Clone Wars is the CG series currently airing.
http://mimg.ugo.com/201005/45468/starwars_clonewarsvolume1_dvd_1.jpg http://www.hobo-bonobo.co.uk/newsdesk/images/080510001521.jpg

[MattKeil]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MzV3RagUU_g/TG2TxxC0tZI/AAAAAAAAATc/Ti1Hf8Fyqzg/s320/gil-head-explode-again.gif

[Anaxagoras]

Not to mention Greedo. What kind of a bounty hunter misses from three feet away?

He must be a graduate of the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

[Andrew Mayer]

I don't think Han Solo *was* a unique character. He was a standard loner archetype that Americans love so dearly. Not quite a "rogue with a heart of gold", but rather a "rogue that's supremely loyal to his friends". I didn't see much character development in him at all; he's loyal to his friends (Chewbacca) at the beginning of the series, and he's still loyal to them at the end. The only change is that he picks up new friends. (and more of them)

Chewie's a rat-bastard. He'll rip your fucking arm right off for looking at him the wrong way.

[Telefrog]

Chewie's a rat-bastard. He'll rip your fucking arm right off for looking at him the wrong way.

Just drop a moon on Chewie and don't worry about it.

[Anaxagoras]

Just drop a moon on Chewie and don't worry about it.

Drop a moon on a fully armed & operational Wookie? I think you overestimate your chance of success.

[DennyA]

Only watch the Clone Wars movie if you can't live without knowing what would happen if Truman Capote was born as a Hutt instead.

That little bit of voice casting (at Lucas' suggestion, of course) made me rank Clone Wars below the Holiday Special in my Star Wars pantheon. Sooo distracting and irritating.

[Telefrog]

Only watch the Clone Wars movie if you can't live without knowing what would happen if Truman Capote was born as a Hutt instead.

That little bit of voice casting (at Lucas' suggestion, of course) made me rank Clone Wars below the Holiday Special in my Star Wars pantheon. Sooo distracting and irritating.

My wife and I started laughing when we went to the theater (!) to see it and Truman Capote Hutt was mincing around in his feathered headgear. We could not believe the voicework was real and we were dumbfounded that someone was able to get that past the engineers, Skywalker Sound, and Lucas.

Only later did we find out that Lucas actually directed them to go for a Truman Capote voice. Simply amazing.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/3FZnoU8PUjffuci8Msw7D0oCo1_400.jpg

[Andrew Mayer]

We're talking about a man who solved a major plot point using a fat chef alien character that runs a Mel's diner.

[MattKeil]

I always thought one of the only really interesting things in Attack of the Clones was the insight into Obi-Wan's offscreen/off-duty character. He's very at home in a bar, as evidenced by the chase scene climax with the shape-changer, and he knows weird characters from what is clearly the "lower class" areas of Coruscant. I believe Ewan McGregor even said he considered Obi-Wan to be "a bit of a Lad" in an interview about that aspect of the character. The story of how Obi-Wan ended up becoming "hug-on-sight" friends with Dex would probably be a way better movie than AotC.

[Ben Sones]

Every time I hear someone say their kids prefer the prequels, I hug my 8-year old "There are only three Star Wars movies, and they all have Han Solo in them" kid.

I'm with you, Denny! I don't think that it's at all creepy that people want to keep their kids from watching crappy movies. I'm not going to forbid my son from seeing them or anything, and I know kids sometimes gravitate towards crap wheter you want them to or not. But I'm certainly not going to be the one to introduce the prequels to him. We'll watch the original trilogy and leave it at that.

[DennyA]

I'm with you, Denny! I don't think that it's at all creepy that people want to keep their kids from watching crappy movies. I'm not going to forbid my son from seeing them or anything, and I know kids sometimes gravitate towards crap wheter you want them to or not. But I'm certainly not going to be the one to introduce the prequels to him. We'll watch the original trilogy and leave it at that.
Yeah, my son saw the prequels (though not until a couple of years after the originals, as the prequels are quite a bit more violent). He came to the conclusion they sucked all on his own. I was so proud.

[sinnick]

I don't think kids should be prevented from seeing the prequels, but at least show them the originals first. Hell, the prequels are jam-packed with so many self-indulgent little "reunions" (Look! It's Threepio on Tatooine! Yoda knows Chewbacca!) that you lose what I imagine are some fun moments of recognition for five year olds, even if they are nonsensical.

[MattKeil]

I imagine the five year olds will pick up on those during repeat viewings even if they watch them in numerical order. I certainly wore out a couple tapes of the OT back in the day.

[Rob_Merritt]

How the Empire Strike Back Should have ended:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L8b1zPE0-Y

[VSys114]

How the Empire Strike Back Should have ended:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L8b1zPE0-Y

With a cell phone ad?

[Rob_Merritt]

With a cell phone ad?

Youtube has ads, welcome to 2008.

[RyanMichael]

"You shot first!"

Awesome.