Germans starting a revolution (after countdown)

[newbrof]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsZbftiWso

[Houngan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsZbftiWso

I assume you were in that video, since it's just people making noise, then being amused by having made noise.

H>

[newbrof]

no, but everyday at 7 pm several groups around Stuttgart starting this noise as a protest against the local government... it's called Schwabenstreich

[strummer]

Are there more than 20 people participating? What is the protest against (noise ordinances would be too obvious)?

[Horrible Oscar]

Are there more than 20 people participating?
Yes, there are in fact 21 people participating!

The description says they're protesting this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21), hence the 21 (though I'm sure they wouldn't have minded going with 2100 instead).

[Houngan]

no, but everyday at 7 pm several groups around Stuttgart starting this noise as a protest against the local government... it's called Schwabenstreich

Look, not to be all "these are the rules" because I hate people who make arbitrary rules on forums, but these are the rules:

1. If you're going to post a video in its own thread, it needs to be so significant or controversial that it can't go in the Best of Youtube thread.

There are others, but they escape me. Something a bit more focused would have been welcome, such as stating that there a Germans being noisy (I assume this is a big deal in Germany?) for a reason, what that reason might be, some background on it, then perhaps a link to a video of people politely using whistles in public.

So let's reset; why are Germans being noisy for a brief period in the middle of the day in a public park away from anyone they might disturb? And how the hell did you manage to pull off the Holocaust, then turn out to be so damned stuffy?

H.

p.s. That last sentence was a demonstration of what the Politics and Religion forum's purpose really is, a place where we can all be insufferable assholes. Like me.

[Shadarr]

Look, not to be all "these are the rules" because I hate people who make arbitrary rules on forums, but these are the rules:

1. If you're going to post a video in its own thread, it needs to be so significant or controversial that it can't go in the Best of Youtube thread.

There are others, but they escape me.

2. Assume people reading your thread have no idea what you're talking about. Assume a fair number don't click links. Put enough content into your post so that both groups can participate in the discussion.

[strummer]

2. Assume people reading your thread have no idea what you're talking about. Assume a fair number don't click links. Put enough content into your post so that both groups can participate in the discussion.

3. And assume they can't read the German contained within said links and won't be arsed to run translation on it and muddle through the results.

Edit: Oh, and here is my favorite revolution video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWQu_et0VHc&playnext=1&videos=ZQVdm9SkvOY

Here is my second and third favorite Revolution videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfhGL0F6LE&a=GxdCwVVULXeHbB_XPMxapLJ-TofOEpP5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LglBZESVcCI

[charmtrap]

This thread reminds me of an MC Frontalot song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3w1_E1V46M) for some reason.

[Funkula]

What the goddamn fucking hell are you shitheads talking about?

[Ed Solomon]

What the goddamn fucking hell are you shitheads talking about?

It's just not the same without the adorable tiny angel.

[Raife]

Fuckin' Germans, how do they work?

[Bill]

Fuckin' Germans, how do they work?

Damned efficiently.

[newbrof]

yes, sorry and excuses. I wanted to create a bit of suspense. Did not work, though?

The local government is going to tear down the Main Train Station and is going to build it underground using millions of tax money... The rebuild should improve train infrastructure like 2-3 minutes less of waiting for a train... Around 20,000 people in Stuttgart are against it... But instead of accepting democratic processes, they are protesting and trying to start a small revolution... I am kind of part of the protest movement...

[Lurb]

This thread made me remember Jerome K. Jerome's "Three men on the Bummel" which I loved as a kid.
Seeing those orderly protestors patiently wait for the appointed protest time made me remember some passages.


In Germany one breathes in love of order with the air, in Germany the babies beat time with their rattles, and the German bird has come to prefer the box, and to regard with contempt the few uncivilised outcasts who continue to build their nests in trees and hedges. In course of time every German bird, one is confident, will have his proper place in a full chorus. This promiscuous and desultory warbling of his must, one feels, be irritating to the precise German mind; there is no method in it. The music-loving German will organise him.

Towards the end Jerome writes, quite presciently for 1890:


Hitherto, the German has had the blessed fortune to be exceptionally well governed; if this continue, it will go well with him. When his troubles will begin will be when by any chance something goes wrong with the governing machine.

[ImaTarget]

This thread made me remember Jerome K. Jerome's "Three men on the Bummel" which I loved as a kid.
Seeing those orderly protestors patiently wait for the appointed protest time made me remember some passages.



Towards the end Jerome writes, quite presciently for 1890:

Oh, I will have to google this text this evening when I am home. I never heard of it as a german myself but it sounds interesting and pretty accurate. Thank you!

[strummer]

yes, sorry and excuses. I wanted to create a bit of suspense. Did not work, though?

The local government is going to tear down the Main Train Station and is going to build it underground using millions of tax money... The rebuild should improve train infrastructure like 2-3 minutes less of waiting for a train... Around 20,000 people in Stuttgart are against it... But instead of accepting democratic processes, they are protesting and trying to start a small revolution... I am kind of part of the protest movement...

Is the main point of contention the money being spent?

When you say "instead of accepting democratic processes", was the majority of the people supporting the new rail line?

Living in the somewhat rural midwest USA, the thought of having an efficient rail transportation option is appealing though very foreign.

[JMR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwpVEcUihXo

[strummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwpVEcUihXo

He probably just grew up around a lot of geese.

[Bahimiron]

My favorite Schwabenstreich is Gabriel Knight.


I wanted to create a bit of suspense. Did not work, though?


Kubrick you are not.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Around 20,000 people in Stuttgart are against it...20,000 people out of a city of 600,000? MY GOD THE INJUSTICE.

5.3 Million if you include the greater metropolitan area. Yeesh.

[Adree]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjeMDvCdrtc

[newbrof]

it is getting hotter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1x3cwOEvfo&feature=player_embedded

What you see here are police men and police trucks securing the main rail station... Yesterday at 2AM the construction building company errected fences of soon to be demolished parts of the main station....

[newbrof]

p.s. more boring videos on that topic sooner or later...

[newbrof]

we are getting more support...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJVfL2-Chpg

good luck and good night

[strummer]

we are getting more support...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJVfL2-Chpg

good luck and good night


Man, it looks like old people love themselves some noise.

Where are all the young protesters? This thing really needs to be marketed better to get the 18-34 demographic, that's where the protest dollar is. Huge. Huge in times of recession; giant market.

[newbrof]

it is about 50:50 old/young, from all parts of society

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WOxM-Nd-tk

[Skipper]

You say you want a revolution.

[Raife]

Well you know, we all want to change the world.

[newbrof]

hey, yesterday we had our 1st Schwabenstreich in New York (US)... there were 10 Germans with whistles, pans, and whatever noise-device they had... since I was here in Stuttgart, can any New Yorker confirm? You sure must have noticed the noise made by 10 Germans... :-)

[Cobra]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/68/1239018815584.png

[strummer]

hey, yesterday we had our 1st Schwabenstreich in New York (US)... there were 10 Germans with whistles, pans, and whatever noise-device they had... since I was here in Stuttgart, can any New Yorker confirm? You sure must have noticed the noise made by 10 Germans... :-)


What is the point of a New York protest over a new train station being built in Stuttgart?

I can't imagine that the outcome of 10 people with whistles, pans and noise-makers would be anything other than annoyance for any New Yorker exposed to it. And any exposure it brings to the people of New York is lost, from a practical perspective, by the fact that the thing being protested is a local issue on the other side of the world.

[Bahimiron]

Best result? Tasing followed by thorough interrogation when their accents lead people to believe they may be Muslims.

[newbrof]

It is not only about a train station. It is all about democracy. Some leading polititians decide to waste tax money, and we are only allowed to go to elections every 4 years...

Bad state of affairs or nuisances are only allowed to be removed by the authorities (that's how it works here)...

when I started this thread, 10000 people protested on the streets, now we are 30000.... tomorrow it is expected that 50000 people go on a march to the local parliament... I know many people who are supporting the case, but don't go to protest... because they are not used to it.

(btw. noise is beautiful, I learned it the hard way. Now I take earplugs with me )

The movement against S21 (Stuttgart 21 project) created even a greek choir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuqQubvf8o

You might not understand it, but this special video is laying an offence complaint against : Schuster (mayor), Grube (manager), Drexler (politician) and others... it was very impressing...


almost forgot: here is a live stream of our main station...
http://cdn1.ustream.tv/swf/4/viewer2.43.swf?v3=1&cid=1/5396068
on top of the buildings some occupants established, in order to prevent the deconstruction...

p.s. police SWAT team removed occupants from the roof at 1500 PM local time...

[newbrof]

after our friday evening protest with 50,000 people in heavy rain this happened

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/14476/original/demo02.jpg?1282940161

just beautiful...

[idrisz]

this story is boring!!

when is the tank going to run over civilians?

or

Free booze + girls flashing their boobs.

[newbrof]

that is very true, I am also bored to death to go protesting, because there are more interesting things to do... protesting is not about fun, action, excitement, girls, boobs, beer... it is as boring as it can be ... ;-)

[Raife]

Wait, why protest if there are no girls or boobs involved? This is foreign to my way of thinking.

[strummer]

after our friday evening protest with 50,000 people in heavy rain this happened

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/14476/original/demo02.jpg?1282940161

just beautiful...

Whaoooohh.

Double rainbow, oh my God, double rainbow

It's a double rainbow all the way...damn

That's a whole rainbow, man, ahhhh!

That is the baddest fucking rainbow I have ever seen.

[idrisz]

Wait, why protest if there are no girls or boobs involved? This is foreign to my way of thinking.

dude, they are protesting because it's a protest without girls or boobs!!!!!

[newbrof]

Whaoooohh.
That is the baddest fucking rainbow I have ever seen.

rainbow appeared just before we started our 50,000 march to the parliament... and it looks like the rainbow is protecting the main station...

btw. on the left end of the rainbow is the building of the biggest financial bank in Stuttgart... and you know what they say about the end of the rainbow, that there is a bucket of gold waiting...

[newbrof]

ok, folks! now I became a gatekeeper... 1st duty is tomorrow morning from 7am to 9am. If somebody would bring me a coffee, I would be thankful!

[strummer]

ok, folks! now I became a gatekeeper... 1st duty is tomorrow morning from 7am to 9am. If somebody would bring me a coffee, I would be thankful!


It's now becoming clear what the protests are about - the coming of Gozer.

Luckily Vinz Clortho, the keymaster, isn't scheduled until 11 AM.

[Funkula]

You know, I can't think of another thread where somebody takes up a new hobby or cause or whatever, and absolutely no one gives a shit, and the person keeps us all updated for weeks on end.

[Two Sheds]

You know, I can't think of another thread where somebody takes up a new hobby or cause or whatever, and absolutely no one gives a shit, and the person keeps us all updated for weeks on end.

That's why I kind of love this thread. I hope he doesn't stop.

[newbrof]

The streets are now ours... We are the park protectors. What you don't know from afar is how the politicians are running in circles like headless chickens... they don't understand why their people are going on the street... tonight we are expecting a protest march with 65000 .... if you tune in at 9-11 am (CET), you can see how 200 policemen are securing the construction site. We are trying to stop the trucks from leaving with building rubble with sit-ins.

http://cdn1.ustream.tv/swf/4/viewer2.43.swf?v3=1&cid=1/5396068

To get carried away by police costs you about 40-60€ (like 50$)

btw. here is a great video. The mayor of Stuttgart, Schuster, travelled to Santiago de Chile to inaugurate the plaza de Stuttgart, but we networked with Chilean people and were able to have a little protest noise during the inauguration...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znTbYgeVhSM

The protestants are shouting OBEN BLEIBEN (stay above), that is our slogan, because the new train station is going to be underground... NOT ;-)

[Abilio Carvalho]

this is the silliest entitled white asshole protest ever.

[newbrof]

I don't know how white you are, but I am definitely not white....

[Houngan]

I don't know how white you are, but I am definitely not white....

Trust me. You're white. You're having a sit-in because of a possibly ill-concieved minor public works project. You make Martin Mull look downright ghetto.

H.

[Ōishi]

Saw some report about some of the protesters weeping when the construction workers started demolishing the old station.

Appeared utterly decadent to me honestly.

Apparently the protests are over 10 years old now. Wonder why we haven't seen some opponents of the project marching the streets a tad earlier, before it was too late.

It kinda is now.

edit: I'm white.

2nd edit: That double rainbow is beautiful.

[newbrof]

seen some opponents of the project marching the streets a tad earlier

you don't start your protest with marching... Protest started years ago with letters, petitions, filings, and whatever... also the local media brainwashed the public for the last 10-15 years... No negative press releases ever. So it took many years for the movement to grow... Too late? Maybe, but now is the time for marching... at least the citizens of Stuttgart are trying to decide for themselves what to happen to their city...


possibly ill-concieved minor public works project

The biggest construction site in Europe for the next 10-15 years, well might be minor for the eyes of US citizens ;)

side note: usually most people/press look down on how bad the politicians do their job... usually the gov never work for their citizens. But somehow this useless, expensive prestige project is suddenly a masterful plan by the best politicians we have.... I could laugh, but it is not funny...

p.s. it is like the Vogons are taking over now...

[Houngan]

you don't start your protest with marching... Protest started years ago with letters, petitions, filings, and whatever... also the local media brainwashed the public for the last 10-15 years... No negative press releases ever. So it took many years for the movement to grow... Too late? Maybe, but now is the time for marching... at least the citizens of Stuttgart are trying to decide for themselves what to happen to their city...



The biggest construction site in Europe for the next 10-15 years, well might be minor for the eyes of US citizens ;)

side note: usually most people/press look down on how bad the politicians do their job... usually the gov never work for their citizens. But somehow this useless, expensive prestige project is suddenly a masterful plan by the best politicians we have.... I could laugh, but it is not funny...

p.s. it is like the Vogons are taking over now...

It's not that I support your politicians, hell, I couldn't name anyone in your government besides Merkel, and I'm pretty sure I misspelled that, and also pretty sure she might have been replaced by now. I envy you the ability to get worked up over this, is the main issue. We've got an economy in the shitter, massive unemployment, baby boomergeddon on the horizon, a Democratic president that closely resembles a moderate Republican, global warming scorching everything, a war and a half, and motorcycle insurance to deal with. There's a controversial bridges project in my own city, I wish I could get worked up about that, but I'm just too busy worrying about everything else.

H.

[hong]

I don't know how white you are, but I am definitely not white....
You don't have to be white to be white.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com

[ShivaX]

It's not that I support your politicians, hell, I couldn't name anyone in your government besides Merkel, and I'm pretty sure I misspelled that, and also pretty sure she might have been replaced by now. I envy you the ability to get worked up over this, is the main issue. We've got an economy in the shitter, massive unemployment, baby boomergeddon on the horizon, a Democratic president that closely resembles a moderate Republican, global warming scorching everything, a war and a half, and motorcycle insurance to deal with. There's a controversial bridges project in my own city, I wish I could get worked up about that, but I'm just too busy worrying about everything else.

H.

Theres a reason European governments still fear the populace and ours doesn't.

[newbrof]

We've got an economy in the shitter, massive unemployment, baby boomergeddon on the horizon, a Democratic president that closely resembles a moderate Republican, global warming scorching everything, a war and a half, and motorcycle insurance to deal

I believe, those issues are all related somehow, but can't tell you how exactly... But: people are expected to go to elections every 4 years and then to shut up and go home... not anymore.

Here is the Stuttgart 21 Project in a nutshell: City mayor buys real estate from the German Rails /Deutsche Bahn for 500 Million €... (real estate where the rails are right now)... The German Rails will go underground with 8 instead of 16 tracks, marginalizing their own buisness... instead of building tracks/rails for freight traffic, they are building a route which is too steep for freight traffic. The manager of German Rails was former manager at Mercedes/Daimler... City of Stuttgart spent 500,000€ now they have to get their money back by building a huge shopping mall and expensive appartments on the new ground. Current Train station will be destroyed partly (north and south wing) although it is protected as a historic monument... all this without ever asking the public, without any order by the public...

Here is a nice image of the Penn Station, New York at 1910...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Penn_Station3.jpg

where is it now...?

From wiki: Penn Station destruction left a deep and lasting wound in the architectural consciousness of the city. Pennsylvania Station's demolition is considered to have been the catalyst for the enactment of the city's first architectural preservation statutes

What the War did not destroy, we destroy by our own stupidity...

[newbrof]

What you think about our new flag?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Ashoka_Chakra.svg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Ashoka_Chakra.svg

[Ōishi]

Theres a reason European governments still fear the populace and ours doesn't.

This is so true it hurts.

[ImaTarget]

Theres a reason European governments still fear the populace and ours doesn't.

They do? I rather feel the "Vote every four years and then shut up" attitude is more like what we get. And of course Lipservice to the "Issue of the month".

The thing costs 5 billion Euros, so its a huge moneysink too. Some estimates say this will not be enough and go up to 8 billion euros and more. Personally I am not sure this is the right time to spend this kind of money on such a project when there are huge holes in the Health Care and other social systems.

[Ōishi]

Go and live a couple of years in the US. Pray you don't get sick or loose your job.

Instant Game Over awaiting.

In the US the citizens fear the government, in Europe the opposite is true.

[strummer]

In the US the citizens fear the government, in Europe the opposite is true.

No, people hear do not fear the government (aside from a small fringe which exists in any country or community). Most of the anti-government sentiment you may hear is not borne of fear, even though they may use fear tactics and rhetoric. It is simply they don't want anybody to touch their stuff (be it their wages, guns, etc).

[newbrof]

from our march on Friday, Spetember 3, I have this clip, our official protest hymn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSFXs-nhMbk

Freunde schöner Kopfbahnhöfe - Friends of Beautiful Terminal Stations
using Beethovens 9th Finale

(underground station will be a simple through station ... urgh)

This is how big we are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5brURLQ51Q&feature=related

---
We Are The Park Protectors

[newbrof]

Network - Mad as Hell

This is how we Schwabs feel...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVUPDYwC4w

I think this was the precursor to the Schwabenstreich

we are almost there, almost...

[newbrof]

The barbarians are coming ... more later!

[newbrof]

The Stuttgarter Schlossgarten (our central park) is the heart of our city. This stupid train station project will kill 300 trees of age 100-200 years. These trees survived both world wars and have to be removed for a prestige project of some local politicians.

Those 300 trees are required for cleaning the air from car smog etc.. right now. It is said that they will be cut down in October... if this ever happens, then Stuttgart will get a civil war... serious. There are radical nature activists here...

Killing 300 old trees is a barbaric act. There is no excuse whatsoever...

---
we are The Park Protectors

[IainC]

I like the way you have a different typed in sig for each hobby horse.

[newbrof]

The wall of sorrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_hi1eEu9YU&t=41

New hobby of the citizens of Stuttgart: mayor hunting. Whenever the mayor OB Schuster goes public, we make sure that enough of us are there "greeting" him...*

Some writer wrote some time ago, that politicians should elect a new population. Stuttgarts politicians think that's a great idea.

Bertolt Brecht "The Solution"

After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writer's Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?

or why not dissolve the government and elect another? In March 2011 we have elections in Baden Württemberg, it looks like the current government will be removed... problem is that the current opposition (social democratic party) is also for this mad project... So the Green party will get 27 %, they could make a coalition with the weaker social democratic party (22 %) and together they could do a public opinion poll or a referendum... The social democrats signalled that they want a opinion poll (even though they want that prestige project build). At least they want a definite decission by the people of BW.

---
We are THE PARK PROTECTORS

* there is still use of vuvuzelas after the fifa world cup

[JustSomeGuy]

Personally I feel you would be better off voting pirate party and posting to german forums / newspapers.

-

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about me caring
You better show some tits or GTFO

[newbrof]

voting pirate party

why? We have the Green party, which is against the project from the beginning. They grew very strong over the last years. But you will get your tits and "police fighting citizens" as soon as the trees are cut... prepare to see some heavy footage.

In a democracy, protesting is a right. Some people argue, why are you protesting? Well, there is nothing else we can do. You think elections could change positions in a corrupt system? Think again.

Brecht again.

I’ve heard you don’t want to learn anything,
So therefore I assume that you’re all millionaires.
Your future is secure—it stands like a beacon
Before you. Your parents have taken precautions
So that your feet won’t trip on any rocks.
Thus you don’t have to learn anything.
You can stay just the way you are.

But in case of any difficulties—
I've heard somewhere that the times are uncertain—
You have your leaders who will tell you
Exactly what you need to do to stay well.
They’ve studied with people
Who know about the truth,
And how that truth will always be valid,
And who have prescriptions to help you.

Because so many people are working for you,
You won’t need to lift a finger.
Of course, if things were different,
You would have to learn about things.

[hong]

Check it out newbrof, your revolution made the front page of nytimes.com!

Walls Fall in a German City, but This Time to Few Cheers (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/world/europe/15stuttgart.html?_r=1&ref=global-home)

[newbrof]

Check it out newbrof, your revolution made the front page of nytimes.com!

Walls Fall in a German City, but This Time to Few Cheers (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/world/europe/15stuttgart.html?_r=1&ref=global-home)


thanks!!

NYT:

What has impressed analysts and shaken local officials in Stuttgart is the size and duration of the protests and the cross section of the traditionally conservative population that is taking part, with retirees and middle-age professionals standing alongside college students to demand a voice in government

"middle-age professionals" ... that's me!!! that is me!!!!!! :)

[JustSomeGuy]

"middle-age professionals" ... that's me!!! that is me!!!!!! :)

Well, as long as the tits won't be..

[newbrof]

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/21658/original/free-camping.jpg?1284646105

Those trees are going to be cut down... because the new Underground station is turned by 90° relative to the old station...
It's comparable to removing a quarter from Central Park in NY... effing politicians and their industry connections.
---
We are The Park Protectors

[newbrof]

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/22120/original/index.jpg?1284721342

Here, you can see the Tree Commando protecting the tree against premature death.

---
we are The Park Protectors

[IainC]

Alternatively it's the Baumgefängniswärter sentencing another tree to life without parole.

[newbrof]

Alternatively it's the Baumgefängniswärter sentencing another tree to life without parole.

no, we promise, it is all for good and we free him at the aproppriate time. we are the good guys, you know...

[Houngan]

Well, I'm glad that's settled, chickenwire caging should easily defeat a large demolition and construction corporation.

H.

[Mordrak]

I don't know what's so surprising. They keep calling the district conservative, educated, and wealthy and then saying its surprising they are taking to the streets over this issue. Well, maybe it's surprising they are taking to the streets, but the issue sounds like NIMBY-ism to me, which is a disease that primarily affects affluent and wealthy professionals.

[Ryan A]

Juan Rayo you are not.

[Pogo]

Juan Rayo you are not.

I kinda wanted to say the same thing, but to be fair, Juan lives in a country that has actual strife, not this fake made-up strife concerning middle class white males with enough time on their hands to complain about a couple acres of trees.

[Ryan A]

People actually cared about Juan's posts because they mattered and were interesting. This newbrof character is really boring and also seemingly deluded into thinking of himself as some kind of revolutionary.

[Sarkus]

I don't know what's so surprising. They keep calling the district conservative, educated, and wealthy and then saying its surprising they are taking to the streets over this issue. Well, maybe it's surprising they are taking to the streets, but the issue sounds like NIMBY-ism to me, which is a disease that primarily affects affluent and wealthy professionals.

It's only NIMBY-ism if what is being put in is something everyone agrees we need but doesn't want near their homes. In this case, Newbrof and his fellow citizens seem more upset about the partial destruction of a protected iconic building that survived a devastating war and a decision to destroy long-time public greenspace and trees. It's a bit different from NIMBY-ism.

What I find most ironic in this thread is the earlier exchange about how nobody in the US cares about what government does while people in Europe do. Followed by the NYT article that says what is happening in Stuttgart is shaking German politics because unlike Americans, Germans rarely publically demonstrate against governmental decisions.

[Houngan]

Ultimately it's just his misunderstanding of how high a bar we set on "look at me". Jpinard crosses it back and forth constantly, but his legitimate posts keep him on the happy side of "for fuck's sake." Newbrof don't have the cachet.

H.

[newbrof]

Police Polka is clearing up the park ... (after around more than 500 people camped there last night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBZ7JVO-JOw

Social Democratic Party changed their mind because of the massive protests. They are going for a referendum, a public poll now. They still want to build the project, but want confirmation from the public. Christ Democrats and Liberals are left now alone with their stonewall politics. They will fail...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sev_xC2QzXI

---
The Park Protectors

[Houngan]

Yeah, at this point I think we can safely say he's Judge Floro without the good bits. Oblivious + boring is just boring.

H.

[strummer]

Police Polka is clearing up the park ... (after around more than 500 people camped there last night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBZ7JVO-JOw



Protip: Triple speed. Replace music with Yakety Sax.

[newbrof]

Protip: Triple speed. Replace music with Yakety Sax.

Protip: I am not the author of the video, just the messenger...

[Equis]

Protip: I am not the author of the video, just the messenger...

Protip: That's not how protips work...

[newbrof]

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/23203/original/simcity21.jpg?1284984499

Our official game to the protest.

Destroy The City!
Lie to Your People!
Sell Real Estate!

pictured is the ruined train station. Real gameplay image!

[Bahimiron]

Does it have cutscenes?

[newbrof]

Does it have cutscenes?

it's 50:50, as it is demanded by the board of the industrial-military-entertainment complex.

[strummer]

Protip: I am not the author of the video, just the messenger...


Ok, I can understand that. So I helped you out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGFQOfYa0E

[newbrof]

thanks!!! Posted it on our official Park Protector forum... really funny!

Especially if you know that 200 policement were escorting 1 tent.

Horseshit at the end sealed the deal! Thanks again...

[newbrof]

I have to write about the diapers. Adult people go to the pharmacy and buy extra large diapers here in Stuttgart. Why? Since the hardcore protestants are going to be chained up around a tree (using a combination of pipes and iron chains), they will not be able to go to the toilet. That's what the diapers are for! I am not there yet. I think I am not going to put on diapers. Those times are gone for good.

---
We are The Park Protectors.

[MattKeil]

(¬_¬)

[strummer]

I have to write about the diapers. Adult people go to the pharmacy and buy extra large diapers here in Stuttgart. Why? Since the hardcore protestants are going to be chained up around a tree (using a combination of pipes and iron chains), they will not be able to go to the toilet. That's what the diapers are for! I am not there yet. I think I am not going to put on diapers. Those times are gone for good.

---
We are The Park Protectors.

Ok, let me know when you have the video of the chained up old men in diapers so I can add some Yakety Sax.

[Lynch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGFQOfYa0E

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/roflmao-41979.jpg

[newbrof]

we had an OK protest on last Friday with around 30000 demonstrants. The city of Stuttgart denied our planned route/march. Instead they forced us to use a different route. Boy, that was a trainwreck of a protest march. Instead of marching through downtown, the route was turned by 180° and led us through sidestreets, around empty office buildings and through some nasty tunnels before we came back to the Main Station. It was raining heavy all the time...

Next time they send us to jump off a cliff and we will happily follow orders like lemmings...

[Hans Lauring]

Next time they send us to jump off a cliff and we will happily follow orders like lemmings...

That's the cool thing about Germans. This would actually work, if the police decided to try...

But for now they are benign. Looking at the weather forecast they knew that you wouldn't like getting wet and sent you to a nice dry tunnel.

[Lynch]

That's the cool thing about Germans. This would actually work, if the police decided to try...
Is this what you learn your kids about foreign people?

[newbrof]

well, after we returned to the Main Station, I would say that one third of the protestants (me including) crossed the street illegaly to the downtown area and prolonged our march with bells, whistles and everything noisy... we will be prepared for next time.

[newbrof]

Water and pepper spray against pupils and protestants. Today is Y day.

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-136723-galleryV9-utee.jpg

http://www.n-tv.de/img/16/1613616/Img_4_3_220_2tl23345.jpg6643984267632533890.jpg

[Jason McCullough]

I still can't tell what the hell the fight is about.

[newbrof]

It is about democracy. (I wish the US would come and free us from our dictatorship, again... They are no Hitlers, but more subtle. Joking? Maybe)

On the surface it is a Real Estate project, which was sold to us as a project to improve our train structure. In reality, it is about old men selling our city to the industry... It was never possible for us to discuss this project in a fair public hearing. Contracts were made without consultation of the public. Now they are killing our central park to get the train station under the central park. 200 year old trees have to be removed (=killed).


Some images. Beware, there is one image of a man losing his right eyeball...
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-59995.html

Several hundred (!) protestants were injured today. The police hit anybody with no regard: young, old, women, men. People whoe were peaceful protesting were hit in the stomach, face, back. Pepper spray was used against school pupils. People were attacked from the back by Police.

My neighbour (female) was hit by those water throwers.

p.s. our Police is way too good equipped. They have everything at their disposal. Next time we should come in scuba diving suits.

I am ashamed that I could not go today since I have a heavy cold (released from my office).

[Cubit]

(I wish the US would come and free us from our dictatorship, again... They are no Hitlers, but more subtle. Joking? Maybe)

Stuff like the project you are protesting against happens all the time in the US.

[newbrof]

You mean main public spaces are destroyed all the time in the US? In major cities? That does not sound good at all... Some people tell me : why do you protest, it is useless... That is not my way of thinking. It is useful, even if we lose. At least we tried...

[Cubit]

You mean main public spaces are destroyed all the time in the US? In major cities? That does not sound good at all... Some people tell me : why do you protest, it is useless... That is not my way of thinking. It is useful, even if we lose. At least we tried...

No, I mean people in power using the public sector to further enrich those in the private sector. It doesn't always take the form of removing trees and parks. Sometimes it takes the form of a massive bank bailout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008), or privatizing formerly public services (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/business/27libraries.html?_r=1&=dbk).

[newbrof]

Now, here in Stuttgart we have the chance to change the way how politics are run. It is a slim chance that other people recognize what dangers are created when people don't care... Making a cross every 4 years is not enough... The authorities showed their brutal face today. They don't care if a 70 yeears old man or woman is hit by the Police (they ordered it). This can't be legal or justice.

[MattKeil]

I still can't tell what the hell the fight is about.

Corporate and governmental fatcats want to cut a bunch of really old trees down for the sake of a probably pointless train project. Overdramatic hippies are taking action against them in ways that are far less interesting than said hippies seem to think they are.

[newbrof]

Overdramatic hippies

except there are no hippies to be found. Just regular people ... old, young, male, female from 15 to 80 years. With jobs and without jobs. Myself, I am a first-time protestant. As many of my fellow protestants. The schwabs are very conservative people. If 50,000 people go to a protest here, it is noticed... Today we were a couple of thousands. Many are working or are scared to go (rightfully).

you are right about the fatcats.. This is our beloved Ministerpräsident Mappus (Governor) who ordered the Police attack, while he was having a beer at a different place today (seriously, this image is from the same day!)

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-136883-galleryV9-lxus.jpg

[Jason McCullough]

Corporate and governmental fatcats want to cut a bunch of really old trees down for the sake of a probably pointless train project. Overdramatic hippies are taking action against them in ways that are far less interesting than said hippies seem to think they are.

Ah, ok.

[nlanza]

you are right about the fatcats.. This is our beloved Ministerpräsident Mappus (Governor) who ordered the Police attack, while he was having a beer at a different place today (seriously, this image is from the same day!)

How long should he wait before he has a beer? Is there an established mourning period here?

Also, isn't there a massive beer festival in Stuttgart right now? Are you seriously going to claim to be outraged that the governor had a beer during a beer festival?

[MattKeil]

except there are no hippies to be found. Just regular people ... old, young, male, female from 15 to 80 years. With jobs and without jobs.

That's exactly what a hippie would say.


Myself, I am a first-time protestant. As many of my fellow protestants.

Too...many...jokes...


The schwabs are very conservative people. If 50,000 people go to a protest here, it is noticed... Today we were a couple of thousands. Many are working or are scared to go (rightfully).

How many just don't care? Are things so idyllic in this town that the biggest problem anyone has is a government conspiracy against trees?


you are right about the fatcats.. This is our beloved Ministerpräsident Mappus (Governor) who ordered the Police attack, while he was having a beer at a different place today (seriously, this image is from the same day!)

How dare he drink liquids on a day like this!

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the motives behind the protesting, but you really seem like you need to get a grip here.

[Timex]

Are things so idyllic in this town that the biggest problem anyone has is a government conspiracy against trees?
This is what I was thinking. If this is the biggest problem you've got, then you're pretty lucky.

[Gordon Cameron]

Not sure why this thread is flypaper for pileons. If a bunch of folks want to march to save some trees, why not? It's as good a way to spend time as watching the latest HBO miniseries or playing Minecraft or something. Also, I think picking on "protestants" is a bit of a cheap shot, but then my German isn't half as good as newbrof's English...

[Anaxagoras]

This is what I was thinking. If this is the biggest problem you've got, then you're pretty lucky.

They may be lucky, but I'm pretty sure the reason that things are so good in their country is because they're engaged in the political process & protest shit like this.

Or do you think it would be better if they just sat back, let things deteriorate, and instead panic about irrelevant details when things are too far gone to save?

There is a reason that America is the way it is. And why Germany is the way it is.

[newbrof]

How many just don't care? Are things so idyllic in this town that the biggest problem anyone has is a government conspiracy against trees?


Again, it is not only about the trees. Also it is not a conspiracy, since the government is pushing there politics in the open for years without any legitmate mandate and without regards of casualties... People were tricked by the government and local newspapers (we still have them). The newspapers admitted: without us there would not be S21 Project. With bad press and bad politicians, the counter movement took years to grow.

Now they are practicing bulldozer politics. Settlement policy. Instead of accepting that there is resistance in the public and instead of trying to get a mandate by a referendum or a public poll, the politicians don't care. I think this is true for many western democracys. Polititcians get elected, now they think they can do whatever they want...

Many people don't care. That is right. We have around 40% of people who don't go to elections. They don't care. That is their right. But we cannot sit back because many people are sleeping their big democratic sleep....

[newbrof]

Many people in the press, politicians and regular/uninformed people are picking on protestants. But it is our democratic right to protest and march. I don't get it that people get offended when they see protestants. It is a fundamental part of democracy... Not being attacked by the police while executing that right is part of the deal.

In Paris more than 100,000 people were marching last week. The french government is trying to raise the pension age. Right now French people can go in pension at the age of 60 years. They will get financial benefits with 60.

In Germany we have the pension age at 65. The government is trying to raise it to 67. No one is on the street... I envy the French for their strong protest.

Right now, if I have to choose: Do I sit at home lazy watching some TV with my wife or do we go on the protest, we choose to go out and fight. We have protests every Monday at 6PM and usually on Fridays at 7PM ... that's the least thing I can do for our democracy.

we need more V

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnPvbfogeSI&feature=related

[IainC]

...protestants...
Just as an FYI, in English we would call you a protester. A protestant is a member of a church following the reformist principles of Martin Luther.


In Paris more than 100,000 people were marching last week. The french government is trying to raise the pension age. Right now French people can go in pension at the age of 60 years. They will get financial benefits with 60.

In Germany we have the pension age at 65. The government is trying to raise it to 67. No one is on the street... I envy the French for their strong protest.
I don't want to get into lazy stereotypes but the French will strike at every opportunity if they feel that their working terms or social welfare are under attack to even the tiniest degree. I lived in Paris for almost four years and the number of strikes was simply staggering.

[newbrof]

thanks. Protesters. I knew it.

I think it is well and good that the French go to the streets so often...

[Lurb]

... the French will strike at every opportunity if they feel that their working terms or social welfare are under attack to even the tiniest degree.

The gall of the Gauls! How they dare?

[theborbes]

Again, it is not only about the trees.

Why bother even replying? MattK is not being nearly as interesting as he
thinks he is. Matt knows it's not just about the trees.

Personally I have some sympathy for the german protesters, I don't know anything about the political issue but police being overly brutal is a subject I take some interest in after it hit so close to home here in Toronto.

[Abilio Carvalho]

The gall of the Gauls! How they dare?

well yeah, but bear in mind that having a public sector that's TOO strong, as in the case of Greece for example, or Portugal which is the example I'm more familiar with, can also lead to paralysis that stop you from doing needed reforms. As in everything, there needs to be moderation and checks and balances. I think the german case, where they're conservative but will come out if it *really* matters to them, is healthier. Or do like the Swiss, and have a system where referendums can overrule local policies.

[Lurb]

well yeah, but bear in mind that having a public sector that's TOO strong, as in the case of Greece for example, or Portugal which is the example I'm more familiar with, can also lead to paralysis that stop you from doing needed reforms. As in everything, there needs to be moderation and checks and balances. I think the german case, where they're conservative but will come out if it *really* matters to them, is healthier. Or do like the Swiss, and have a system where referendums can overrule local policies.


It was mostly the wording: I mean, having your "working terms under attack" sounds pretty bad and seems like a good reason to go out and break stuff, so striking seems a decent alternative.
Really, to me the actual existing social contract has always read like "Behave or I'll burn your shit" instead of some wishy washy mumblings about the consent of the governed.

[IainC]

It was mostly the wording: I mean, having your "working terms under attack" sounds pretty bad and seems like a good reason to go out and break stuff, so striking seems a decent alternative.
Really, to me the actual existing social contract has always read like "Behave or I'll burn your shit" instead of some wishy washy mumblings about the consent of the governed.
I'll concede that 'working terms under attack' wasn't a very descriptive phrase but I was rather stumped for a more elegant way to cover a wide range of grievances that employees of various industries went to strike over. Some were certainly worth arguing for, others not so much.

I recall when the train drivers went on strike because there were plans to discuss moving their retirement age to be the same as every other SNCF worker - the early retirement age for train drivers was a holdover from the age of steam when being an engine-driver was physically punishing work. Nevertheless, when the government started to float the idea that maybe train drivers should retire at 60 just like everyone else the unions immediately called a strike. I am generally pro-union but this sort of nearsightedness undermines the credibility of their more legitimate complaints. When the RATP are on strike for more weekends per year than they actually work, people stop caring about what the particular grievance du jour might be.

[Hans Lauring]

Yeah, I'm heavily pro-union, but France is a joke.
People plan vacations around France knowing that at any time some small grievance might end up in airports closed, railways stopped or worst of all the freeways you depend on when going further down in Europe blocked by angry farmers because ending some subsidy or tariff barrier propping up their ineffectual business is being discussed in parliament.

There as hard to feel sorry for as Greeks taking to the streets and killing innocent bank workers, because they're being forced to face up to their own crazy overspending.

[MattKeil]

Why bother even replying? MattK is not being nearly as interesting as he
thinks he is. Matt knows it's not just about the trees.

Yes, it's also about attempting to forcibly change something that has occurred since humanity invented the idea of government. People in charge do shitty things in the name of furthering their agendas. Chaining yourself to a tree isn't going to change that, particularly when said people in charge apparently have no problem breaking out the firehoses and pepper spray.

And the reason some of us are being snarky about this is because newbrof is presenting it like some kind of ultimate fight for truth and justice on the same forum in which JuanRayo is posting about fighting for actual freedom in the midst of wondering whether or not he'll ever see his father again.

[newbrof]

on the same forum in which JuanRayo is posting about fighting for actual freedom

I would think that those things are not related to each other. I am sad that you try to do that. Btw. a young man lost yesterday his eyesight (doctors think it will be permanent). Do you need dead people, so that the protest is validated or important enough for this forum?

[Hemalin]

The Daily Show (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-30-2010/mob-swap) picked up on the goings on in Europe.

[Odovacar]

Yes, it's also about attempting to forcibly change something that has occurred since humanity invented the idea of government. People in charge do shitty things in the name of furthering their agendas. Chaining yourself to a tree isn't going to change that, particularly when said people in charge apparently have no problem breaking out the firehoses and pepper spray.


I´m sure Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King would beg to differ...




And the reason some of us are being snarky about this is because newbrof is presenting it like some kind of ultimate fight for truth and justice on the same forum in which JuanRayo is posting about fighting for actual freedom in the midst of wondering whether or not he'll ever see his father again.Perhaps someone in Iran or NKorea who has been tortured or raped would say that JuanRayo has no business to complain... It´s a matter of perspective.

I don´t have an opinion about S21 (yet).
But the brutal and anti-democratic behavior of the CDU yesterday made me a strict opponent of governor Mappus. And I´m actually a regular CDU (CSU in fact) voter.
How dare they use teargas and water guns against peaceful protesters! Many of my colleagues at work are conservatives but today all of them draw the conclusion that the ruling party in BaWü needs some time in opposition...

I move next February to Ludwigsburg so I can vote in March. This and the federal policy about nuclear power plants will force me to make a decision between SPD and The Greens. So the protests wasn´t for nothing, they eliminated at least one CDU voter.

[newbrof]

The Daily Show (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-30-2010/mob-swap) picked up on the goings on in Europe.

we almost did it... sigh, no Stuttgart in the Daily Show, yet.

Greetings to Odovacar.

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-136906-galleryV9-zioc.jpg

[newbrof]

for our German speaking QT3s

http://www.archive.org/details/Stuttgart_1997&reCache=1

We were screwed from the beginning (1997). 2 people I recognize from the present conflict.

OB Schuster (mayor, 1997-2010) and Gangolf Stocker (leader of the protest, 2010 )

This video showed an "open" discussion between citizens of Stuttgart 1997 and the local authorities and how the authorities brush away any complaints and demands for public participation. In 1997!!!

Today I can read in the press that everything was legit and legal and discussed from the beginning and that the protest is too late and not legit.

Screw you, gangsters!

[theborbes]

And the reason some of us are being snarky about this is

I really don't believe you need a reason to be snarky Matt, I'm not sure I've seen a single post of yours that wasn't laced with snark. Anyway, I don't really care, just confused why anyone would bother replying and/or taking it seriously.

If Newbrof and the people of Germany think it's a serious political issue then it is, even if there is worse stuff happening everywhere or even if the government's been doing it since we invented government (as if that's a good reason to let them keep doing it).

[Jason McCullough]

I have no idea why they're so upset (they're chaining themselves to trees in a public park to keep it from being turned into a train station?), but they appear to be righteously pissed, and on top of that the authorities aren't handling it well. So go on with your protesting selves!

[John Many Jars]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C00sOZgv1tM

[BobJustBob]

http://imgur.com/zB4ZH.jpg

[Bill Dungsroman]

I have no idea why they're so upset (they're chaining themselves to trees in a public park to keep it from being turned into a train station?), but they appear to be righteously pissed, and on top of that the authorities aren't handling it well. So go on with your protesting selves!

See McCullough, they think stuff like the government mowing down a park to make way for industry is like, I dunno, a big deal or whatever. Like it never happens here every other week or something. Who knew Germans could be so uproarious about anything anymore! I thought they outlawed that!

[newbrof]

Today October 3 is a public holiday here. We celebrate the Day of German Unity. 20 years ago the Berlin wall was teared down. Today in Stuttgart, we built a new wall.

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/29089/original/P1020025_1.JPG?1286119396

[MattKeil]

That's a fence.

[Cubit]

So how long until you guys chain yourselves to the endangered trees?

edit: whoops! Forgot they already tried that.

[MattKeil]

I thought they already tried that. With the adult diapers and such.

[newbrof]

already happened, but at the wrong trees ;) 25 trees were cut down on Friday... but not at the expected area... also: this illegal and brutal police attack on the protesters prevented effective chaining. I still cannot explain why 60-70 years old people were hit with tear gas, water throwers, bats ... (September 30 was the first nail in the coffin of project S21)

p.s. anyone remember the beginning of Monty Python's Meaning of Life?


---
We are The Park Protectors

[Equis]

already happened, but at the wrong trees ;)

Keep up the good work Newbrof. Viva La Revolucion and all that!

[newbrof]

Now available! S21 - The RTS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WnV9HCwiI

starring

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/29779/original/comic_glatze.jpg?1286212075

here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Kgwzmf4Z8&feature=related

[strummer]

Now available! S21 - The RTS

[/URL]here:

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Kgwzmf4Z8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WnV9HCwiI)

And sax-ed up here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLT1ZmP7Ws0).

[extarbags]

What's with the alternate version?

[newbrof]

And sax-ed up here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLT1ZmP7Ws0).


sax makes everything better ;) Thanks, strummer... kind of hypnotizing.

[Cubit]

And sax-ed up here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLT1ZmP7Ws0).

I like this version best, because it capture the tone of this thread so well.

[strummer]

sax makes everything better ;) Thanks, strummer... kind of hypnotizing.


You are welcome.

In both videos I've done, it ended with a close up of a horse's ass. Most of the police in the video, especially at the beginning, were sort of "hey, I'm just doing my job" but that skinhead cop was seemingly being excessive with the use of his baton.

[theborbes]

Police using excessive force? Why, that's something that has happened since we invented police. Therefore don't complain. (?)



Note for the slow: Making fun of the completely retarded arguments some people have given here.

[newbrof]

Why, that's something that has happened since we invented police. Therefore don't complain. (?)

right, don't complain is your motto or way of living...?

[newbrof]

You are welcome.

In both videos I've done, it ended with a close up of a horse's ass. Most of the police in the video, especially at the beginning, were sort of "hey, I'm just doing my job" but that skinhead cop was seemingly being excessive with the use of his baton.

There is this police guy smiling... could use more repetition. I was almost expecting it when the long solo section started... his face, protesters, his face, water cannon, his face.... but there will be more things to come.

--- We are the Park Protectors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNlYBNTCBG8&feature=related

[Bill Dungsroman]

Police using excessive force? Why, that's something that has happened since we invented police. Therefore don't complain. (?)



Note for the slow: Making fun of the completely retarded arguments some people have given here.

Let's talk about intelligence for a minute. Here's what happens when people form a mob and protest: they never, ever move unless they are moved forcibly. newbrof himself admitted the company was acting legally and filed all the necessary papers, so here you have some hippies breaking the law and standing in the way of a legal proceeding of action. Hey, I'm not saying it's awesome that trees are getting cut down but that's the way it goes sometimes.

So you have these people. How do you get them to move? You're the chief of police. Tell me what necessary force you would use to get dozens if not hundreds of entirely unwilling protesters chained to trees to move. I guarantee you your answer will be woefully inadequate (and I will most likely point and laugh at it).

[Kalle]

Fence off the area, prevent anyone from entering, and set up a barbecue.

[newbrof]

Force against protesters is required to be proportionate (by law here in Germany). This also means that especially young or old people have to be treated proportionate. If protesters make sit-ins, water cannons, tear gas or bats are not allowed. If they stand peaceful, likewise. Sit-ins are not considered violent. If people are chained to trees, no water cannon will help.

How should the police handle it? Like before, sit-ins are resolved by moving the protesters one by one. When they teared down the northern part of the train station, there were sit-ins. Those sit-ins were resolved by the police with no problems...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulaHwyNL-_A&feature=related

The videos you saw before were made when the police violence already escalated... When police already had beaten senior citizens with bats, water cannons and used tear gas against school children on their officially announced school strike protest.

also: what is this obsession with hippies? We don't have hippies in Stuttgart ;)

On September 30 special forces (black) were ordered from the beginning from other regions than Stuttgart. Water Cannons were there from the beginning. It was a planned attack on a peaceful protest.

Almost all press/tv switched on our side since September 30. Even Social Democrats (who are voting for S21) condemn the police operation. There is no justification for police brutality against democratic citizens exercising their rights.

The police were unable to cope with the situation on Sept 30... I don't blame them. They were ordered by politicians. Clean up that mess! As usual police do the job of incompetent politicians.

There was one (1) policeman who threw down his helmet and said "I am not going to do this shit. They are still children"... only one, though ...

on October 1st we were 100,000 protesters marching ...

---
We are The Park Protectors

[John Many Jars]

Set the dogs on them

[Bill Dungsroman]

Force against protesters is required to be proportionate (by law here in Germany). This also means that especially young or old people have to be treated proportionate. If protesters make sit-ins, water cannons, tear gas or bats are not allowed. If they stand peaceful, likewise. Sit-ins are not considered violent. If people are chained to trees, no water cannon will help.

How should the police handle it? Like before, sit-ins are resolved by moving the protesters one by one. When they teared down the northern part of the train station, there were sit-ins. Those sit-ins were resolved by the police with no problems...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulaHwyNL-_A&feature=related

The videos you saw before were made when the police violence already escalated... When police already had beaten senior citizens with bats, water cannons and used tear gas against school children on their officially announced school strike protest.

also: what is this obsession with hippies? We don't have hippies in Stuttgart ;)

On September 30 special forces (black) were ordered from the beginning from other regions than Stuttgart. Water Cannons were there from the beginning. It was a planned attack on a peaceful protest.

Almost all press/tv switched on our side since September 30. Even Social Democrats (who are voting for S21) condemn the police operation. There is no justification for police brutality against democratic citizens exercising their rights.

The police were unable to cope with the situation on Sept 30... I don't blame them. They were ordered by politicians. Clean up that mess! As usual police do the job of incompetent politicians.

There was one (1) policeman who threw down his helmet and said "I am not going to do this shit. They are still children"... only one, though ...

on October 1st we were 100,000 protesters marching ...

---
We are The Park Protectors

It's funny, because when I google articles on this whole protest, I see several mention violence perpetrated on the part of the protesters against police. In fact, representatives of the October 1st demonstration had to promise beforehand that it would be peaceful "this time." Also there were already water cannons because you've been protesting for what, weeks? Months?

You make it sound like water cannons are Gatling guns. Your answer is police should pick up and hand-carry thousands of people every day, over and over, away from the site. That's ludicrous and now I get to point and laugh at you like I promised.

Such is the way of these protests. A lot of people to deal with. But, 100,000? Non-biased reports say closer to 1000, maybe 2000 all told. Who knows. The information as it pertains to statistics surrounding these protests is highly unreliable.

Lastly, again, this project is a means to modernize Germany by significantly improving its railway system. I'm sure that means nothing.

[newbrof]

It's funny, because when I google articles on this whole protest, I see several mention violence perpetrated on the part of the protesters against police. In fact, representatives of the October 1st demonstration had to promise beforehand that it would be peaceful "this time." Also there were already water cannons because you've been protesting for what, weeks? Months?

on September 30 there were 1000-2000 protesters in the park during the police attack.
on Friday 1st, there were 100,000 protesters marching.


In fact, representatives of the October 1st demonstration had to promise beforehand that it would be peaceful "this time."

BS. Protests are required to be peaceful by law. Protests are peaceful by definition. Therefore, when politicians are asking the protests to be peaceful is a way to blame protesters for Sep 30.


Also there were already water cannons because you've been protesting for what, weeks? Months?

Protests are going on for months and years and were peaceful. You suggest that a protest becomes invalid after weeks, months and that the use of water connons is legit when protests are going on for too long...?


Your answer is police should pick up and hand-carry thousands of people every day, over and over, away from the site.

It is required by law that police force has to be proportionate, especially against young, old or feeble people... This law was not applied by the police on Sep 30



this project is a means to modernize Germany by significantly improving its railway system

Do you believe that?... we already have the second-most accurate train station in Germany. There is no need to build it underground. The plans were made 15 years ago, when locomotives needed to be swapped in a terminal station to drive out ... This is obsolete. Trains can drive in and out without hassle.

This project is a real estate project, it does not improve our railway system. We will have the biggest construction site in Europe for the next 10-15 years, wasting Billions of Euros so that very few people will make some extra money. All this was pushed by local politicians without including the population of Stuttgart or of state Baden Würtemmberg .


Your answer is police should pick up and hand-carry thousands of people every day

This is a political problem and should have never made a problem of the police. As usual, politicians try to solve problems with the people by abusing police forces.

OK, what are our goals here? Do we want to stop S21? No, we can't stop it. We know that. What we want is a referendum. Let the people of BaWü decide if they want that project or not. We are not asking a referendum for every tiny project ... so there should not be a problem here.

In 6 months we have elections in BaWü. Until then no further demolition should be made.

Today, I read that President of BaWü, Mr. Mappus, agreed that there will be no further demolition until the elections in March... we will see.

[ImaTarget]

That is really the thing, the above ground rails disappear and suddenly there is some Prime real estate in the middle of Stuttgart where someone will make bundles of money off. The other thing I just learned yesterday in the news is that one politician ran with the promise to have a public vote on the project if the costs would change significantly. They changed about 1 billion and well it looks like they forgot to do the public vote. There are also a lot of voices stating that this project is currently too small. 15 years ago when the planning started it was sufficient, now it is a waste of time which will cost untold billions extra to get up to needs right after it is finished. There are a lot of reasoned arguments against the project in its current form. Personally I am of the opinion that the decision has been made legally and as such should be followed through.

However this is not only about a train station any more. It has become a symbol of sorts that kicked of a discussion how far the state can continue with his policies if they are reached by legal means but opposed by a large margin of the population. Can a state change its mind? Can he ignore the populace or should he listen? Which measures can the state take against it´s citizens in such a case?

Trees and an old Trainyard are not the sole issue any more. I wager most of you cannot even understand what this protest means. Germans do not protest much. They do it relatively seldom. And if they do not in huge numbers. Not anymore. 100.000 people is mindblowing and of widespread significance for the whole republic, not only Stuttgart itself.

[hong]

Just thought I'd mention that Spiegel also weighed in against the project a coupla weeks ago.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,717575,00.html


A multibillion railway development project is going ahead in Stuttgart, despite the fact that it offers hardly any benefits for the rail network and the money would be better spent elsewhere. Experts have been warning against the plans for years, but they were ignored.

There are hundreds of little reasons to be opposed to the "Stuttgart 21" railway and urban-redevelopment project. Most of them are trees, which will be cut down as part of the work. Angry locals are now sitting on the branches of those trees in the city's Schlossgarten Park to protest against the chainsaws of power. And the massive demonstration against the plans, which involve moving Stuttgart's main railway station underground and turning it from a terminus into a through station, is starting to look more and more like an open-air festival.

There is also a big, truly compelling argument against Stuttgart 21, one that concerns all Germans and not just those living in Stuttgart: money. Or, more precisely, the extremely large amount of money that will be sunk into the project.

Current estimates put the costs of building the subterranean railway station in Stuttgart, the capital of the southwestern German state of Baden-Württemberg, at €4.1 billion ($5.38 billion). An associated high-speed rail line to Ulm, a city lying about 90 kilometers (56 miles) southeast of Stuttgart, is slated to cost another €3 billion.

[newbrof]

thanks. and to make it clear. S21 is not a private business, almost all wasted money is taxmoney.

[MattKeil]

And the massive demonstration against the plans, which involve moving Stuttgart's main railway station underground and turning it from a terminus into a through station, is starting to look more and more like an open-air festival.

Dude, I think he just called you hippies.

In all seriousness, what do you expect the outcome of this to be? You can go on an on about disproportionate force, but non-lethal means of "persuasion" are generally perfectly legal in situations like that. You come out and blockade a fully legal construction project, you gonna get the hose. If there really were 100,000 people there on the 1st (which I highly doubt given other estimates from non-protester sources), what option did the police have? It's a dick move, sure, but if you're going to illegally blockade government construction sites, no matter how righteous your cause, you're going to have to accept the possibility of non-lethal force being used by the police.

Is there any aspect of this protest/movement that's working inside the governmental system to change the minds of someone in charge? Political allies? Legal scrutiny of the creation, funding, and approving of the project?

[Timex]

I don't understand what's so evil about the proposed project... If they're moving the station underground, isn't that going to open up even more land on the surface?

[Cubit]

I don't understand what's so evil about the proposed project... If they're moving the station underground, isn't that going to open up even more land on the surface?

Yeah... that is what I was thinking. It sucks to cut down trees, but won't this give you guys the opportunity to plant even more trees?

edit: Also, why the fuck are children being taken to these protests?

[MattKeil]

I don't understand what's so evil about the proposed project... If they're moving the station underground, isn't that going to open up even more land on the surface?

The overall idea behind the project is to make Stuttgart's railway lines throughlines instead of termination points, hopefully making it easier to get to Stuttgart and more attractive as a destination from more areas. From what I can gather, the double-secret fatcat plan is to use the newly recreated land for prime real-estate development, naturally headed up by government fatcat buddies. Public perception of the plan is that it's a whole lotta effort for very little return, and is a waste of tons and tons of taxpayer money in a time when you really shouldn't be wasting taxpayer money. A similar issue may well come up in California shortly when they start trying to build/fund that $15 billion LA-to-SF high speed rail project that got approved in the 2008 election.

They've been trying to push some form of it through since the 1980s, and have only managed to get any traction in the last ten years or so. Protests and petitions have been happening related to the project (Stuttgart 21) since at least 2007, and overall public opinion has shifted greatly against it the last year and a half (about 70% oppose currently...possibly more now that the September 30th protests freaked out the rest of the country). Stuttgart's population could theoretically have stopped the project democratically, but because some funding was also coming from outside the city, it was determined that the citizens of Stuttgart "did not have the right" to make that decision on their own. It does seem that the people of Stuttgart were, in fact, royally screwed by some pretty slimy government sleight-of-hand.

That said, none of the protest movements seem more than large-ish grassroots organizations, and it seems clear that this will not be stopped or solved without someone working on the inside. If that's not happening, then at this point more police violence is probably the most advantageous thing that could happen for the protesters, as it seems police organization thuggery is seriously frowned upon in Germany overall. Perhaps there's an historical reason for that or something. I'll have to look it up.

[Lynch]

Perhaps there's an historical reason for that or something.
Gestapo and MfS/ Stasi.

[MattKeil]

Gestapo and MfS/ Stasi.

http://scarless1.tripod.com/images/thats_the_joke.jpg

[newbrof]

If there really were 100,000 people there on the 1st

to clear up confusion: on Sept 30 were 1000-2000 protesters in the park when the Police strike happened.

on October 1st were 100,000 people marching against S21 and to pay respect to the 1000-2000 protesters the day before...


Is there any aspect of this protest/movement that's working inside the governmental system to change the minds of someone in charge? Political allies

yes, the Green party is part of the protest (they profit most), since they were the only party against S21 from the beginning. In the next state elections in March 2011 they are espected to become 2nd force, slightly behind the Christ Democrats...


edit: Also, why the fuck are children being taken to these protests?

School children at the age 12-16 were planning an official School Children protest for several weeks in advance. They were granted to protest on Spetember 30 in the park. They were protesting for better education and more money for schools.

The police was aware that there would be some 100 school children in the park on that day (since it was official).

[Bill Dungsroman]

on September 30 there were 1000-2000 protesters in the park during the police attack.
on Friday 1st, there were 100,000 protesters marching.

No one who isn't directly affiliated with the protest has verified that number, sorry.



BS. Protests are required to be peaceful by law. Protests are peaceful by definition. Therefore, when politicians are asking the protests to be peaceful is a way to blame protesters for Sep 30.

What? Have you ever like read a history book?



Protests are going on for months and years and were peaceful. You suggest that a protest becomes invalid after weeks, months and that the use of water connons is legit when protests are going on for too long...?

No, I am suggesting that as fun as it was protesting during the protracted red tape phase of the land re-purposing, clearly the actual wheels of progress are beginning to turn and after all this time, the fact that police came prepared to do some actual moving of bodies with the most effective non-violent means they have at their disposal should come as no surprise to anyone, not even well-to-do Stuttgartians who attached themselves to a local trendy cause like Save the Park (or whatever).



It is required by law that police force has to be proportionate, especially against young, old or feeble people... This law was not applied by the police on Sep 30

Yeah, you keep banging that drum. We've been over this already, you cannot expect police to individually hand-carry each and every protester away when there are thousands of them.



Do you believe that?... we already have the second-most accurate train station in Germany. There is no need to build it underground. The plans were made 15 years ago, when locomotives needed to be swapped in a terminal station to drive out ... This is obsolete. Trains can drive in and out without hassle.

Well I won't argue that with you, you probably know more than I do, although again the discussion about the usefulness of the initiative isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. I can say is this diagram sure makes it look like a logistically viable plan:

http://i56.tinypic.com/20kvrzr.gif



This project is a real estate project, it does not improve our railway system. We will have the biggest construction site in Europe for the next 10-15 years, wasting Billions of Euros so that very few people will make some extra money. All this was pushed by local politicians without including the population of Stuttgart or of state Baden Würtemmberg.

And all of that does what to you, incidentally? It's nice you're all wound up about it but what does chaining yourself to a tree do in this instance? The irony here is that even if the claims of 100,000 people were true, it doesn't seem to change much. You claim the media is on your side. Wow, that'll help in light of the fact that you have no legal claim to keeping the park there. Post facto alleged violence against protesters doesn't count, sorry.



This is a political problem and should have never made a problem of the police. As usual, politicians try to solve problems with the people by abusing police forces.

Yeah. Too bad that doesn't have as much to do with this renovation project as you would hope.



OK, what are our goals here? Do we want to stop S21? No, we can't stop it. We know that. What we want is a referendum. Let the people of BaWü decide if they want that project or not. We are not asking a referendum for every tiny project ... so there should not be a problem here.

In 6 months we have elections in BaWü. Until then no further demolition should be made.

Today, I read that President of BaWü, Mr. Mappus, agreed that there will be no further demolition until the elections in March... we will see.

Yes, because the protests have turned violent. That's kind of interesting when you think about it. Regardless of who started the violence, it was the violence that finally got you what you wanted, at least for the time being. Also the halt is temporary and you know that is all it will be. I also find it weird to champion this sort of thing breathlessly and draw painfully awkward parallels to the Berlin Wall. A little perspective might be in order here. Anyway, here's hoping you get to keep your park!

[Timex]

on October 1st were 100,000 people marching against S21 and to pay respect to the 1000-2000 protesters the day before...
Is that even possible? The whole city's population is only around 600k. Where would you have fit another 100k people? Was the whole center of the city just packed with wall to wall protesters?

[newbrof]

500k+100k=600k...

[Bill Dungsroman]

My google-fu is weak, I can't find a link that substantiates that 100,000 figure.

[Houngan]

We keep forgetting newbrof is, well, new. For reference newbrof, here's a personal thread we found compelling:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=53306

Our standards for "look at me!" have consequently become quite high.

H.

[Anaxagoras]

What? Have you ever like read a history book?
Of course he has. He's already demonstrated that although his English is very good, it's imperfect. So instead of pointing out a peculiar phrase and and then making one of your "witty" remarks, how about you actually try to understand what the fuck he's trying to say. (Hint: it doesn't involve asking a snarky question.)


clearly the actual wheels of progress are beginning to turn and after all this time,
Lord knows the German railway system is in desperate need of progress.


the fact that police came prepared to do some actual moving of bodies with the most effective non-violent means they have at their disposal should come as no surprise to anyone
He's already covered this. Apparently, by German law, force must be proportionate. The police didn't use proportionate force. This broke the law, and was therefore surprising. Do you need it broken down further?


Yeah, you keep banging that drum. We've been over this already, you cannot expect police to individually hand-carry each and every protester away when there are thousands of them.
He's correct to keep banging that drum, since it's a valid point that you haven't successfully responded to yet. Oh sure, you've declared a couple times that the police can't possibly behave in a civilized manner, but it takes more than a stupid declaration to make something a fact.



Well I won't argue that with you, you probably know more than I do, although again the discussion about the usefulness of the initiative isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. I can say is this diagram sure makes it look like a logistically viable plan:
So you won't argue, but you'll argue. Bill Dungsroman, everybody! Let's give him hand!


The irony here is that even if the claims of 100,000 people were true, it doesn't seem to change much. You claim the media is on your side. Wow, that'll help in light of the fact that you have no legal claim to keeping the park there.
The laws in a functioning democracy are created by the people, you dipshit. If masses of people don't want a project, and there's no compelling reason to build it, then the project should be stopped. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say if that meets the definition of a "legal claim", but I do know that it meets the definition of "good governance".


Yeah. Too bad that [the police brutality] doesn't have as much to do with this renovation project as you would hope.
It kinda does, actually. You should have a chat with your next paragraph to find out how:



Yes, because the protests have turned violent. That's kind of interesting when you think about it. Regardless of who started the violence, it was the violence that finally got you what you wanted, at least for the time being. Also the halt is temporary and you know that is all it will be. I also find it weird to champion this sort of thing breathlessly and draw painfully awkward parallels to the Berlin Wall. A little perspective might be in order here. Anyway, here's hoping you get to keep your park!

[Odovacar]

For the number of protesters, it´s actually true. But if exactly 100.000 or "only" 70.000 it´s quite a number.

Out of many, many sources:

Financial Times Deutschland
http://www.ftd.de/politik/deutschland/:freitagsprotest-bis-zu-100-000-demonstranten-in-stuttgart/50177132.html


One of two big news channels in Germany
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/100-000-demonstrieren-gegen-Stuttgart-21-article1617061.html

There are in German but you can see the number.


Of course the people who are responsible for the clusterfuck on Thursday say that the protesters were violent! It´s their ass that is in the crossfire!

But the violent reaction of the protesters was to throw chestnuts on the police...

All major news outlets condemned the police reaction.

For example

Financial Times Deutschland

It's true that the government is right to enforce law and order on its territory. That necessarily includes clearing an area that has been occupied by protesters, for which a building permit has been legally issued. But a democratic state must preserve a sense of moderation and try to protect its citizens as far as is possible. It is debatable whether this happened in Stuttgart.Die Welt (quite conservative)

Deploying heavily armored riot police against students is reminiscent of the old days and old attitudes which are not exactly popular in Germany's liberal southwest. It is true that the protesters are trying to thwart a planning process that has been going on for 15 years, and thereby overturn the current position, which is legal and legitimate and was reached through democratic means. One can argue that the protesters are coming too late to the debate.
But even then, the use of state pressure and state force must remain proportionate. Not all the protesters are simply out to cause trouble. There are some among them who believe that the decisions about the project were not reached in a suitably democratic fashion.
Die TAZ (left leaning)

Bizzare images and sounds were transmitted live via a mobile webcam out of Stuttgart's Schlossgarten park on Thursday and beamed onto thousands of computer screens all over Germany. At first glance the images seemed familiar from … anti-nuclear protests in the past: Demonstrators sitting in the path of a police vehicle, police emerging dressed in absurdly war-like armour, wanting to clear the way for their colleagues and finally resorting to water cannons to do so. But (the images) didn't fit with what came out of the headphones. Not only were a considerable number of the demonstrators chanting 'Wir sind das Volk' ('We are the people,' a slogan associated with pro-democracy protesters in East Germany) but they also began singing the German national anthem -- further evidence for the presence of a core conservative element in the protest movement. After all, what is at stake is the kind of thing that conservatives like to preserve: almost 300 trees -- some of which are very old -- and a city park threatened with being turned into a construction site. "The otherwise respectable citizens, who react to water cannons by singing the national anthem, see themselves as legitimate representatives of the nation and are in the process denying this role to those (authorities) who sent police into the park. Germany's conservatives no longer feel represented by local and national government."On S21:It´s quite an interesting question. So you had an legal execution of the whole venture. But the decision was made 15 years ago. Now the overwhelming majority of your citizens don´t want it. What do you do? Where ends the obligation to execute democratic decisions that were chosen 15 years ago, and where starts the duty to do what the electorate wants now?

[newbrof]

also to note: the majority of protesters are just asking for a referendum, a public decission by the people of the state.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Of course he has. He's already demonstrated that although his English is very good, it's imperfect. So instead of pointing out a peculiar phrase and and then making one of your "witty" remarks, how about you actually try to understand what the fuck he's trying to say. (Hint: it doesn't involve asking a snarky question.)

Wait, what? Where did I do that? I wasn't making fun of his English then, not intentionally at any rate. He said protests are peaceful by definition, they aren't and rarely if ever have been. But I guess you know what words he does and doesn't know and whether or not he used them correctly or as he meant, because you are sitting right next to him or something. At least argue with me rationally if you are going to insist on attacking me yet again.



Lord knows the German railway system is in desperate need of progress.

Everything needs to evolve. I already admitted I am not entirely certain how useful the plan is, aside from there being a lot of heated debate over it.



He's already covered this. Apparently, by German law, force must be proportionate. The police didn't use proportionate force. This broke the law, and was therefore surprising. Do you need it broken down further?

Yes, if you don't mind. Water cannons and pepper spray (the claims of tear gas are not verifiable, especially since people often mistake pepper spray for tear gas) are disproportionate when faced with thousands of people unwilling to move? I am still left wondering what would be proportionate - according to German law, I suppose. I haven't really gotten an answer for that.



He's correct to keep banging that drum, since it's a valid point that you haven't successfully responded to yet. Oh sure, you've declared a couple times that the police can't possibly behave in a civilized manner, but it takes more than a stupid declaration to make something a fact.

That's a very poor summation of what I've said, but thanks for calling me stupid. I mentioned logistics, but I guess I'm too dumb to know what that word even means. Also that government does what it wants and it's a little late to act in utter outrage over that, maybe that's where you are getting that from. Aside from that, and perhaps it's just my American-centric perspective on things, but you just can't expect there to not be some form of violence when a police force is tasked with moving thousands of people out of the way. That doesn't justify it, but you'd have to be pretty naive to presume otherwise. Remember, this wasn't a protest where people massed in front of a government building or the like, they put themselves in the way illegally, forcing action to have them moved.



So you won't argue, but you'll argue. Bill Dungsroman, everybody! Let's give him hand!

What are you doing in this thread if not the same? What does anyone do in P&R? Take your grudge somewhere else. I'm tired of your knee-jerk antagonistic response to my posts in any given thread. I'm not slapping you across the face by arguing with people. I am asking newbrof for some serious clarification on things because he hasn't seemed to have been the most reliable witness for this whole thing. Neither have I grandstanded, nor been as insulting as you have been to me.



The laws in a functioning democracy are created by the people, you dipshit. If masses of people don't want a project, and there's no compelling reason to build it, then the project should be stopped. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say if that meets the definition of a "legal claim", but I do know that it meets the definition of "good governance".

You sure aren't a lawyer, because that is a grossly oversimplified version of how actual law works, never mind how it pertains to what is happening here. We'll start with "no one involved in the railway initiative was breaking the law" and we can pretty much end there, unless you really want to be the only person arguing that they broke the law. Here is an excerpt of a quote that Odovascar posted:


That necessarily includes clearing an area that has been occupied by protesters, for which a building permit has been legally issued.

Go on and call me a dipshit again if it'll make you feel better.



It kinda does, actually. You should have a chat with your next paragraph to find out how:

Let me clarify what I meant by that. I meant to say that events that occur in the aftermath of this railway renovation project in terms of protests don't justify the opposition to the project being started. It's a waste of money? OK. It won't really do anything? Sure. Thousands of people showed up and things escalated? Not really. You can't really make the argument "See? They should never have allowed them to renovate the railway, because look at all the bloodshed!" It's more of an unintended consequence than anything. That's why I said "post facto."

I'd like to point out that newbrof essentially begged for people to pay attention to him in this thread, culminating in him comparing this to the Berlin Wall, a comparison I find somewhat offensive and trollish to say the least. So in essence, you are attacking me for giving newbrof what he was asking for, for no other reason that I'm me and you clearly have a problem with that.




Also, thanks for the links Odovacar, however:


It's true that the government is right to enforce law and order on its territory. That necessarily includes clearing an area that has been occupied by protesters, for which a building permit has been legally issued. But a democratic state must preserve a sense of moderation and try to protect its citizens as far as is possible. It is debatable whether this happened in Stuttgart.

Doesn't really count as a flat condemnation, I don't think. It's my opinion the police felt daunted by the crowd's size and persistence over the span of several days, and overreacted. I do not think they gleefully put on their jackboots and laughed as they aimed the water cannons at babies.

[newbrof]

The city of Stuttgart paid 500 Million Euros to the German Rail in advance (a couple of years ago). They paid the money for the real estate (where the rails are right now). This had the effect that the German Rail were going to execute S21 ( before that, the German Rail was not interested very much in the project because it was too expensive).

The financial situation in Stuttgarts schools is critical for years. There is no money for new books, for equipment, for facilities etc... It is an unbelievable process, that the city of Stuttgart was paying IN ADVANCE for real estate they will obtain in 10-15 years from now. If Stuttgart had the money, they could have used it for better reasons.

Maybe we have 500 schools in Stuttgart. Why not giving the money 1 million to each school..? or any other substantial amount. Why paying in advance? They could have paid the German Rail in 10 years from now...

This is another reason why people are not amused ...

@ Mr. Dungsroman. I hope you do not feel offended by anything I wrote in this thread, just trying to explain a political situation here... and documenting it. Everybody knows that it is not comparable to the Berlin Wall, but it was a strange coincidence that they build the fence on our public holiday celebrating the fall of the Berlin wall 20 years ago.

[Bill Dungsroman]

The city of Stuttgart paid 500 Million Euros to the German Rail in advance (a couple of years ago). They paid the money for the real estate (where the rails are right now). This had the effect that the German Rail were going to execute S21 ( before that, the German Rail was not interested very much in the project because it was too expensive).

The financial situation in Stuttgarts schools is critical for years. There is no money for new books, for equipment, for facilities etc... It is an unbelievable process, that the city of Stuttgart was paying IN ADVANCE for real estate they will obtain in 10-15 years from now. If Stuttgart had the money, they could have used it for better reasons.

Maybe we have 500 schools in Stuttgart. Why not giving the money 1 million to each school..? or any other substantial amount. Why paying in advance? They could have paid the German Rail in 10 years from now...

This is another reason why people are not amused ...

Ah, well there we go. It is not just the feeling that funds are being poorly apportioned to the rail, but that it is done so while other facets of the local civil infrastructure suffer.



@ Mr. Dungsroman. I hope you do not feel offended by anything I wrote in this thread, just trying to explain a political situation here... and documenting it. Everybody knows that it is not comparable to the Berlin Wall, but it was a strange coincidence that they build the fence on our public holiday celebrating the fall of the Berlin wall 20 years ago.

Not so much offended really, but I appreciate you making that clarification. And I was just trying to get a better grip on what exactly is going on over there, any agitated rhetoric aside.

[Hetzer]

The thing with s21 is the limited gain from a new railwaystation.

It was planned years ago with a budget of 2 billions euro (or 2.6 billion dollars). The expected costs are now at 8 billion euros and they have only begun to build, so i wouldnt be surprised if s21 will be at 12 - 15 billion euros in the end.

The gain of the new station would be a reduction of traintime in minutes to get to other cities near stuttgart. With that kind of money we could rebuild our schoolsystem and close the gap between us and other countries education systems.

If von Stein could see this waste of money he would rotate in his grave.

Best wishes from essen to the protesting people in stuttgart...

[Lynch]

explaining joke
If you have to explain a joke, it's obviously an unworthy one. I also don't think a greater share of your fellow countrymen are aware or do know shit about any of the two organizations.


I am still left wondering what would be proportionate - according to German law, I suppose. I haven't really gotten an answer for that.
Bearing them away as mentioned a thousand times before in this thread.

[Timex]

For the number of protesters, it´s actually true. But if exactly 100.000 or "only" 70.000 it´s quite a number.

Out of many, many sources:

Financial Times Deutschland
http://www.ftd.de/politik/deutschland/:freitagsprotest-bis-zu-100-000-demonstranten-in-stuttgart/50177132.html


One of two big news channels in Germany
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/100-000-demonstrieren-gegen-Stuttgart-21-article1617061.html

There are in German but you can see the number.

The 100k number is just coming from the protesters themselves. No one else is confirming it. The police are suggesting that it's closer to 50k, which I admit, is still quite large.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Bearing them away as mentioned a thousand times before in this thread.

Which I will rebut a thousand times, is not remotely practical nor realistic.

[Lynch]

Nobody cares if it is unpractical for the cops, it's the fucking unwritten law. This has nothing to do with realism, bigger amounts of people have been beared away before in this country. If the fucks start to use tear gas and water cannons against peaceful people, children and seniors, they have to shot the leftish mini-extremists throwing stones at the fucks and burning cars next time, 1st of May/ Berlin latest.

[MattKeil]

An "unwritten law" is nonsense. Don't go to a protest blockading a legal construction project (or whatever) unless you're ready to get hosed, tased or sprayed. And again, as Bill said, the violence used against the protesters is the only thing that has managed to get the movement any traction, so at this point it should pretty much be their goal to get their asses kicked.

[Cubit]

lol, unwritten law.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Nobody cares if it is unpractical for the cops, it's the fucking unwritten law.

It's the what now? Where is this coming from?



This has nothing to do with realism, bigger amounts of people have been beared away before in this country.

They have? How? When? Lol, "nothing to do with realism." Nice rebuttal.



If the fucks start to use tear gas and water cannons against peaceful people, children and seniors, they have to shot the leftish mini-extremists throwing stones at the fucks and burning cars next time, 1st of May/ Berlin latest.

They didn't use tear gas and you are barely making any sense in this post.

[Lynch]

Look guys, Stuttgart is not the US and Germans obvioulsy have higher expectations of their police force. They don't accept aggressive behaviour and attacks on peaceful protesters. Full stop.


They didn't use tear gas and you are barely making any sense in this post.
Read the articles (or take a look at the pic below), they used tear gas, pepper spray and water cannons.

http://www.noows.de/gallery/einzelbilder/panorama/Stuttgart21_dapd_Roland_Magunia.jpg

In the end the fucks had to bear people away just like Germans expect:

http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01200/stuttgart5_BM_Verm_1200931p.jpg

Sucks to be a German cop obviously.

[Pogo]

Why are they carrying him instead of dragging him across the ground by one arm?

[Odovacar]

The Federal Constitutional Court made clear that sit ins are a legal form of demonstration as long as the protesters don´t chain up themselves. So you can sit down before a tree and wait that the police carry you away. But your actions become punishable if you resist the police or have yourself chained to the tree. (BVerfG, 1 BvR 55/94 vom 4.12.1997 http://www.bverfg.de/entscheidungen/rk19971204_1bvr005594.html) (http://www.bverfg.de/entscheidungen/rk19971204_1bvr005594.html)
Sorry, only in german...

The authorities are allowed to use water cannons or tear gas but they have to exercice moderation. So if your protesters are extremists who react violently you can spray them out of the way.
But if your protesters are older people and school children who are peaceful, you have to use restricted force.



Why are they carrying him instead of dragging him across the ground by one arm?Because he exercises his constitutional right to demonstrate and didn´t perform something illegal.

Our constitutional rights, especially the right of resistance, are something which we hold in high esteem. Our past showed us how fast you can loose rights which you took for granted. The USA or the UK were never dictatorships (well since Lordprotector Cromwell at least), so the possibility is very remote for the vast majority. But my grandparents know how it feels to live under the "wise" leadership of a few sacrosanct politicians. (thread godwinized?)

[MattKeil]

"Resisting police" is a very, very subjective thing. Especially from the point of view of the police. Further, didn't newbrof say they did chain themselves to the trees?

[Odovacar]

"Resisting police" is a very, very subjective thing. Especially from the point of view of the police.
As we can see in this case. Nevertheless brutality of police officers are not the rule in this country.



Further, didn't newbrof say they did chain themselves to the trees?

And compared to newbrof I don´t approve chaining to trees. But the vast majority of protesters didn´t even attend the sit ins. Even further, you can sue the small number of chained protesters after you cut the chains, but the use of tear gas or water guns against them would be a criminal assault. They are already helpless after all.

[newbrof]

Today I saw a video on TV where the special police force were grabbing the heads of the teenage school children (male and female). It looked really hurtful. They tried to lift them by their head.

But I don't blame the police, they were overburdened (?) or overchallenged. I don't know what their orders were, but they did not expect youngsters. Those young people were like catalysts, they initiated the escalation. They occupied a police truck with fence materials, and blocked the road... When the police tried to get them away they did not move, the police applied force, pepper spray, water... that was the trigger for the adult protesters to mingle with the police and everything turned into chaos ...

Without the inexperienced young people, it would have been less dramatic (that is my assumption), but you never know... I watched the police press conference and they explained some of it...

Some people call Sep 30 the Bloody Thursday, but that would go to far. Wet Thursday is not enough... I watched the movie Bloody Sunday this summer by Paul Greengrass... and there you can learn how a situation between demonstrants and police escalates, piece by piece... no one wants an escalation, but it happens when the conditions are right...

Do I approve chaining to trees...? I understand it, but I would not do it... not for this project.

[newbrof]

http://www.parkschuetzer.de/assets/statements/32319/original/33594.jpg?1286487277

Episode IV
Help me Obiwan Kenobi, you're my only hope...

[Raife]

When they knock down your favorite tree, how you gonna come? With your hands on your head, or on the trigger of your gun?

[Bill Dungsroman]

Look guys, Stuttgart is not the US and Germans obvioulsy have higher expectations of their police force. They don't accept aggressive behaviour and attacks on peaceful protesters. Full stop.


Read the articles (or take a look at the pic below), they used tear gas, pepper spray and water cannons.

http://www.noows.de/gallery/einzelbilder/panorama/Stuttgart21_dapd_Roland_Magunia.jpg

In the end the fucks had to bear people away just like Germans expect:

http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01200/stuttgart5_BM_Verm_1200931p.jpg

Sucks to be a German cop obviously.

OK, they used tear gas. Meanwhile, look at that female protester. She's laughing. Truly, heinous acts were committed that dark day.

[strummer]

OK, they used tear gas. Meanwhile, look at that female protester. She's laughing. Truly, heinous acts were committed that dark day.

Maybe she's a sadist?

[MattKeil]

As we can see in this case. Nevertheless brutality of police officers are not the rule in this country.

Not the rule in any first world country, but again, brutality is subjective and orders are orders. And German police are good at following orders.


And compared to newbrof I don´t approve chaining to trees. But the vast majority of protesters didn´t even attend the sit ins. Even further, you can sue the small number of chained protesters after you cut the chains, but the use of tear gas or water guns against them would be a criminal assault. They are already helpless after all.

If the police are acting under orders, it's not "criminal assault," or at least it would be borderline impossible to prove it as such. I'm not trying to say what the police did was right, but I am a little confused as to why everyone seems so fucking surprised by what happened. You're upset that the police broke some perceived and indeed some actual rules of engagement, but you seem to forget that you're up against the people who make the rules. The police answer to the guys who pushed billions of Euros of bullshit through just to line their own pockets.

You're protesting against them because they broke the rules. It seems naive to not expect them to continue to do so when their position is threatened. This is likely to get worse before it gets better.

[Lynch]

Meanwhile, look at that female protester. She's laughing. Truly, heinous acts were committed that dark day.
Add some pepper spray to the face of the girl and you'll achieve exactly that - a dark day filled with unlawful, heinous acts.

This picture shows how civilized protests should look anywhere around the globe. Unfortunatelly not all societies have achieved such an advanced state of civilization.

[newbrof]

here is the official police video of violence against the police

http://org.polizei-bwl.de/ppstuttgart/PublishingImages/s21/Gewalt%20gegen%20Polizei.wmv

These are the most violent and brutal scenes what the police had found after a couple of days of reviewing their video material... Because of those scenes the police is justifying the applied brutality against school children and other protesters.

this is a mess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJTG0KWAPsA&p=F8FDCF2BF9479A9C&index=8&feature=BF

German Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUmgjdJNiA&p=F8FDCF2BF9479A9C&index=2&playnext=3

at 2:25 many protesters start coughing at the same time. That is not pepper spray, but tear gas

[strummer]

here is the official police video of violence against the police

http://org.polizei-bwl.de/ppstuttgart/PublishingImages/s21/Gewalt%20gegen%20Polizei.wmv

These are the most violent and brutal scenes what the police had found after a couple of days of reviewing their video material... Because of those scenes the police is justifying the applied brutality against school children and other protesters.

this is a mess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJTG0KWAPsA&p=F8FDCF2BF9479A9C&index=8&feature=BF

German Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUmgjdJNiA&p=F8FDCF2BF9479A9C&index=2&playnext=3

at 2:25 many protesters start coughing at the same time. That is not pepper spray, but tear gas

From the videos, I assume the gist is that the green trucks were work vehicles to facilitate the construction (or destruction) at the park. The protesters were there to prevent movement of the trucks and the police were there to clear the way for the trucks. Is that fairly accurate?

I must admit, from the videos posted, both sides seem to be trying to meet their diametrical objectives with relative restraint. With the exception of the skinhead guy with the "-" on his back. He was quick to bust out the pepper spray, just as he was quick to bust out his nightstick in the previous video. The label on his back is appropriate; perhaps he should be made to wear "+" instead - anything to try to improve his disposition.

And why do you think it was tear gas? Pepper spray induces coughing, and if it were tear gas, I would assume the police would be wearing gas masks instead of just visors.

[Bill Dungsroman]

German Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUmgjdJNiA&p=F8FDCF2BF9479A9C&index=2&playnext=3

at 2:25 many protesters start coughing at the same time. That is not pepper spray, but tear gas

My God that is the most peaceful and respectful protester removal I have ever seen in my life. Tell me you don't think that was some sort of shocking brutality because protesters were spazzing out over being removed.

[newbrof]

You are accurate with your description above

I assumed gas since it hit many people at the same time... maybe that can happen with pepper spray applied through other means... (you are probably right).

I wonder what that "-" means, the other police had roman numbers. Maybe he was the boss or the janitor...

[newbrof]

My God that is the most peaceful and respectful protester removal I have ever seen in my life. Tell me you don't think that was some sort of shocking brutality because protesters were spazzing out over being removed.

yes, they tried their best.... occasionaly spraying with pepper spray ...
one guy was turned his arm hurtful on his back. But you can say that at this situation the police was trying.

[newbrof]

a new sport: running in the death zone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJ7oJ02H_s

5 minutes later second try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJ7oJ02H_s&NR=1

playing with the police (this is a couple of days later after the trees were cut)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUWmqs4rKXw

Anyone remember the 4 Musketeers movie by Richard Lester when the Musketeers were taking breakfast on a tower during a siege?

Taking breakfast behind the fence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjxEecHLdTg&feature=related

[strummer]

I find it interesting the police, themselves, have multiple cameras going, filming the events.

[newbrof]

There is a rumor going that videos from September 30 get deleted on youtube ... I don't know if it is true or not.

[Bill Dungsroman]

There is a rumor going that videos from September 30 get deleted on youtube ... I don't know if it is true or not.

WELL ISN'T THAT CONVENIENT

[strummer]

There are still quite a few of them out there, including the one you linked to. So it doesn't seem true...yet.

[theborbes]

Hey let me sum up some of the opinions seen in this thread:


The government has deemed this project legal. therefore, if you have a problem with what the government calls legal, you should not voice your concerns. After all, we are a reflection of the government, not the other way around. Also, if people wish to protest at a "legal" project, they deserve to be excessively beaten and to endure needless suffering.

Just goes to prove the dumbest are always the loudest.

good show not giving in and bickering with these fools Newbrof, I wouldn't have the strength (clearly). It might be different if they had a sound argument that was based on any sort of reason. THAT WOULDN'T BE CONVENIENT.

[strummer]

I won't speak for any one else, but here is my opinion:

More power to all the protesters. More power to those who take on the man; more power to those who fight the, uh...power. This is something that is obviously important to them and based on the videos newbrof has shared, the protesters have been doing what protesters do in an organized, mostly non-violent manner. Would I, personally, be so motivated to join such a protest for such a reason? No, likely not. It may very well be cultural and community differences and I can't decide which side of such differences is "better".

Likewise, based on the videos linked, it seems the police are mostly just "doing their job" and that job necessitates physically removing people to allow work to continue. It seems they have shown, for the most part, very good restraint.

I'm not impassioned enough to side with any party involved (despite my natural inclination to support the "little guy"), but I find it all interesting and hope newbrof continues to post.

[MattKeil]

Hey let me sum up some of the opinions seen in this thread:


The government has deemed this project legal. therefore, if you have a problem with what the government calls legal, you should not voice your concerns. After all, we are a reflection of the government, not the other way around. Also, if people wish to protest at a "legal" project, they deserve to be excessively beaten and to endure needless suffering.

Reading comprehension problems much? At most, people have been saying that the protests are not going to help. There are more effective ways of voicing opinion, although most of them require action far before the point at which the votes are cast, the deals are signed, and the bulldozers are a-rollin'. And nobody said anything about "deserving" police brutality, it was specifically about "expecting" it, because that's how this shit goes. Get enough riled up people in one space in a situation like this and violence will occur. And when it does, the guys with the tear gas and batons generally come out on top.

Nice attempt at righteous indignation, but the discussion here has mostly been realists vs. idealists more than anything else.


Just goes to prove the dumbest are always the loudest.

Nah, your post seemed pretty normal volume.

[theborbes]

nice attempt at roping me into arguing with you, if you had made a single good point in this thread I might even have fallen for it. Too busy being Righteously indignated, i guess.

The semantics card was cute though, I could just pinch your cheeks when you fail to distinguish the difference between protestors 'deserved' abuse or they should have 'expected' it (which I guess means they either shouldn't complain or shouldn't protest). Either way a really dumb point to try to make.

Oops! you almost got me!

[Bill Dungsroman]

I won't speak for any one else, but here is my opinion:

More power to all the protesters. More power to those who take on the man; more power to those who fight the, uh...power. This is something that is obviously important to them and based on the videos newbrof has shared, the protesters have been doing what protesters do in an organized, mostly non-violent manner. Would I, personally, be so motivated to join such a protest for such a reason? No, likely not. It may very well be cultural and community differences and I can't decide which side of such differences is "better".

Likewise, based on the videos linked, it seems the police are mostly just "doing their job" and that job necessitates physically removing people to allow work to continue. It seems they have shown, for the most part, very good restraint.

I'm not impassioned enough to side with any party involved (despite my natural inclination to support the "little guy"), but I find it all interesting and hope newbrof continues to post.

Well said, strums.

[MattKeil]

nice attempt at roping me into arguing with you, if you had made a single good point in this thread I might even have fallen for it. Too busy being Righteously indignated, i guess.

If that's how you need to frame it to feel like you understood anything I wrote, I suppose. I'll give you a tip again, though: You didn't. I can only assume that if someone says to you, "If you poke that cobra, it will bite you," you take it as them saying, "You deserve to die from snakebite."


The semantics card was cute though, I could just pinch your cheeks when you fail to distinguish the difference between protestors 'deserved' abuse or they should have 'expected' it (which I guess means they either shouldn't complain or shouldn't protest). Either way a really dumb point to try to make.

Yeah, how silly of me to point out that words mean what they mean, not what supports your prissy internet rant.

[Pogo]

nice attempt at roping me into arguing with you, if you had made a single good point in this thread I might even have fallen for it. Too busy being Righteously indignated, i guess.

I don't think you understand what it's like when Matt actually is attempting to rope someone into an argument. His response to you was pretty straightforward.

[newbrof]

Here is a video from October 1st, after the Black Thursday. We had 1 minute of silence, followed by our Schwabenstreich, 1 minute noise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of9BZI1bNKY

When the project S21 finally will be stopped, I will miss the noise!

[Lynch]

There are more effective ways of voicing opinion, although most of them require action far before the point at which the votes are cast, the deals are signed, and the bulldozers are a-rollin'.

Care to elaborate and specify? Sounds like empty words to me.

[newbrof]

I learned many things during the protests, because the protests are always accompanied by talks and speakers: architects, engineers, rail experts etc...

What I learned yesterday:

The S21 underground train station will be build transverse to the flow of the ground water stream. The station will work like a dam. The solution is to pump the ground water by using 13 km of pipelines from one side of the station to the other side. The pipelines will be build above the ground. The blue lines in the image are the piplines

http://www.stuttgart.de/img/mdb/item/403018/56601.jpg

here is an example from Cologne (how it will look like):

http://julian-hinderer.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/P9253784.jpg

This ground water system will be used as long as the underground station is used, like the next 60-100 years... It is a small, negative detail, but it shows that the people deciding those projects don't live at the places, where the decissions show their effects...

p.s sorry for the big images

UPDATE: the pipes will only be used during construction time > 10 years ... later they will try to make it underground. Don't know what try means...

[Lynch]

http://www.n24.de/media/_fotos/bildergalerien/koeln_einsturz/koeln9.jpg

Works great in Cologne.

[newbrof]

For documentation purpose: At the beginning you can see Police dressed casual (yellow Police vest). They try to provoke and escalate the situation... Later in the video you see the same police official wearing a uniform. Police used agent provocateurs for escalation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NYRtQxcNR0

other parts of the video we already know. At the end you can see a water cannon trying to shoot down a teenager from a tree (which could end with broken neck, legs, arms).

Also you can see that the police is acting heavily with batons against teenagers...

What happened since: A independent mediator was appointed by the state government to lead negotiations between the governement and the protest movement. This mediator is an elder statesmen and respected by both, government and protest.

The goal of this negotiation is to exchange arguments, facts in a civil way. Mr. Geissler (mediator) requested on the 1st day of his appointment that the construction work should halt during the negotiations and that new contracts should not be placed ....

President Mappus denied that request immediately, already threatening the negotiations to be aborted before they even began...

The negotiations should start end of this week, but without an interruption of the S21 project, there can not be negotiations (which should go until end of 2010)... What's the point of negotiations if the government side continues to create facts on the construction site?

(sound like a report from the Gaza strip)

[Bill Dungsroman]

(sound like a report from the Gaza strip)

Here we go again.

[Cubit]

(sound like a report from the Gaza strip)

Does comparing your cause to that which went on in East/West Germany and what is currently going on in Gaza make you feel more important? Is it what gets the Stuttgart protesters out of bed in the morning?

[newbrof]

you guys missed the irony in my post ... sorry

Propaganda machine is running on all cylinders

The video starts with a quote by Karl Kraus:

When the sun of culture is low, even dwarves will cast long shadows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcYMQjOya2Q

Notes:
The prison at the beginning is actually our new public library (still under construction), thank you, you great architects of Stuttgart...

[Bahimiron]

When the sun of culture is low, even dwarves will cast long shadows

Funny, I would have said children. It seems more appropriate whenever you post.

[John Many Jars]

I dunno; if you think about dwarven shadow modeling you realize it depends on a lot of things, most notably time of day, latitude, and surrounding topography. It would definitely be cool to note the differences in length between dwarves, humans, and bronze colossi, though --- it would be a subtle way of increasing 3D sense in a tileset-based game.

Also, who cares about a bunch of cabbage-chewing Baader-Meinhoffers? They should show more pride in German engineering.

[Lynch]

They should show more pride in German engineering.
http://www.kleider-machen-chic.de/500px-Trabant.jpg

[newbrof]

you might like that quote, no?

The trouble with Germans is not that they fire shells, but that they engrave them with quotations from Kant.

[MattKeil]

As a result, the shells are continually amazed that we're able to fit all those organs into our bodies.

[Lynch]

The trouble with Germans is not that they fire shells, but that they engrave them with quotations from Kant.

http://schriftman.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/hux-lee-18_immanuel-kant_jacob-schriftman.jpg

[Bill Dungsroman]

you might like that quote, no?

The trouble with Germans is not that they fire shells, but that they engrave them with quotations from Kant.

No the problem is that Hitler was so darned interesting, his legacy is a country of terminal bores.

[newbrof]

eh, don't start the bore war. We still have Uwe Boll ....

[hong]

Did someone say broerwors?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Boerewors_raw.jpg

[newbrof]

I have acute bronchitis for the last 14 days and can't move much... recovery minimal.

Good thing is I can watch the S21 negotiations on TV every Friday...

[newbrof]

the events in middle east (Tunesia, Egypt) is giving me hope that we will have a new government soon here in Baden Württemberg... stay tuned!

[Houngan]

Jesus fucking Christ newbrof, get a sense of perspective. The Middle East throwing off decades of oppression by mass demonstrations while the army is being moved in during a complete information blackout really makes me think that bitch Suzy Jenkins on the neighborhood association might come around. FFS.

H.

[Hechicera]

Awww, don't be mean. The people in the Middle East on the streets can be an inspiration to anyone who thinks their government is not responsive to them.

If Germany doesn't wait, what about 31 years? but nips the problem in the bud while it is a minor thing, that's good. Very German.

[Bill Dungsroman]

the events in middle east (Tunesia, Egypt) is giving me hope that we will have a new government soon here in Baden Württemberg... stay tuned!

I hope you get immolated in one of the tire fires you fucking dolt.

[Pogo]

*spews coffee all over keyboard*

Seriously though, fuck that Suzy Jenkins, walking around measuring everyone's grass.

[newbrof]

I hope you get immolated in one of the tire fires you fucking dolt.

you too, Sir. You think 100,000 people here in Stuttgart go to protest for nothing... think again, dolt. The CDU party is occupying the government here for more than 50 years, because they have a lot of money to spend for their campaigns. This is not the natural state of democracy. Dolt, pfff...

[Chris Nahr]

I'm pretty sure that the money available to spend on campaigns has nothing to do with CDU vs SPD governments, as campaigns for the major parties are tax-funded in Germany...

[newbrof]

the more votes you get the the more money you get back after the election...

[Abilio Carvalho]

You pompous, overfed, overindulgent, gigantic ASSHOLE.

[Bill Dungsroman]

you too, Sir. You think 100,000 people here in Stuttgart go to protest for nothing... think again, dolt. The CDU party is occupying the government here for more than 50 years, because they have a lot of money to spend for their campaigns. This is not the natural state of democracy. Dolt, pfff...

http://i52.tinypic.com/13yo6z7.gif

[Odovacar]

you too, Sir. You think 100,000 people here in Stuttgart go to protest for nothing... think again, dolt. The CDU party is occupying the government here for more than 50 years, because they have a lot of money to spend for their campaigns. This is not the natural state of democracy. Dolt, pfff...




http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/0/127_for_teh_lulz.jpeg


You compare the fight of desperate people against oppression with protests against a fucking train station. And you get serious answers...

Your extraordinary troll abilities are amazing. You, sir, are a true artist!

[Lynch]

the more votes you get the the more money you get back after the election...
This reminded me of the Anarchistic Pogo-Party of Germany and their notorious mottoes like:

Work is Shit
School is shit!
Fick Heil! = Fuck Hail!
My vote for the trash!
Asocials to power!


etc

IIRC they invest all the funds they receive into beer and extravagant heads of hair.

edit: ROFL...they still exist. For a true change, go vote for them newbrof. There is even an English wikipedia entry for further info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Pogo_Party_of_Germany
Good Luck!

This has to be quoted as well:


Aims
Right to unemployment with full salary
Youth pension instead of retirement pension
Abolishment of compulsory education
Creation of centers for physical love, so-called Mitfickzentralen (literally "fuckpooling centers")
Abolition of police
Legalization of all drugs
Abolition of the right to demonstrate with prior announcement (abolition of distinction between permitted and not permitted)
Totale Rückverdummung ("total restupidification") and balkanisation of Germany
Reconstitute the German borders from 1237 (a satire on the aim of some German extreme-right parties to restore the German borders during the time of Nazism and WWII - or WWI)

[Jason McCullough]

IIRC they invest all the funds they receive into beer and extravagant heads of hair.

I would like to subscribe to this newsletter.

[Funkula]

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9945/440pxwhatisthismysontom.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/440pxwhatisthismysontom.jpg/)

In order for newbrof to get the full Tunisian/Egyptian experience, he's going to need to be tear-gassed and beaten with a club. I hope we're all good enough friends here on Qt3 to help him make that dream a reality.

[MattKeil]

The clubs will need to be made out of the trees he was trying to save.

Edit: Also maybe the situation in Egypt will help educate these tree twerps about what actual "excessive force" is.

[Hans Lauring]

Dolt, pfffft...!

[MattKeil]

I can only read that in the voice of Pinky from Pinky and the Brain.