Seattle: Jaywalking Teen Punched in Face by Police

[TimElhajj]

http://media.komonews.com/images/100614_arrest_punch.jpg

In Seattle, we take jaywalking seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9w9AfptGGQ

I watch the youtube and feel bad for the officer. Not that I condone popping teenage girls in the face, but he is just clearly in a world of shit. Makes you wonder why he didn't tase anyone, which woudln't have made for such impressive video.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/96353934.html

[Telefrog]

Yeah, he fucked up. There was a lot of crap going on and she was practically begging to be socked in the mouth, but he screwed up badly.

[Pogo]

Resisting arrest, touching a cop = punched in the fucking face. He'll be acquitted.

[TimElhajj]

Resisting arrest, touching a cop = punched in the fucking face. He'll be acquitted.

If so, it's too bad. He's not in control of that situation and he brought it on himself for no good reason. Jaywalking? He's lucky the crowd didn't jack him.

[Pogo]

It's not illegal to not be in control of a situation. I doubt it's illegal for him to punch someone in the face if he feels threatened by them coming in to stop him from doing his job, even though he was doing a piss poor job at doing his job. The fact that it's a woman getting punched is irrelevant and likely what every armchair peace officer on the internet is going to be outraged about.

Why even bother resisting arrest for jaywalking? Talk to the cop like a human fucking being, take your god damn ticket, and live with it. You don't blatantly jaywalk right into the path of a cop car either, that's just retarded.

[Matthew Gallant]

It seems like there's a jaywalker every morning on Elliott Ave and if not there's one on Denny. They should all get punched in the face one time if you ask me. It's better than getting hit by a car or causing an accident.

[Mark Asher]

Yes, looked like a poor effort on the part of that cop. And all over what? Jaywalking? Christ. Wonder what that officer does over a purse-snatching -- call in an air-strike?

[TimElhajj]

I have no idea if his behavior was legal, but it was stupid and dangerous and that seems bad enough. Maybe get someone on the force who can offer smart, legal, and safe performance?

[Pogo]

Yes, looked like a poor effort on the part of that cop. And all over what? Jaywalking? Christ. Wonder what that officer does over a purse-snatching -- call in an air-strike?

You think this is enough of a use of force to warrant hyperbole like that? Yeah, he handled it like shit, he should have called in backup at the first sign of resistance since there were 4 in the party.

Note that the original jaywalker, a single male, wasn't resisting arrest, he was just being talked to by the officer. Then these 4 ladies blatantly walk across the street in exactly the same way. And when a cop catches you doing something like that and you find it a good idea to just walk away, he has every right to put cuffs on you and deal with resisting arrest.

You don't blame the cop for doing his job trying to write tickets for jaywalking.

[TimElhajj]

Sure, you blame him for showing poor judgment.

[Pogo]

Agreed.

[Brian Seiler]

I find it hard to approve as strongly as I do of Snookie or Stogie or whatever the skank I'm thinking of is called on that reality show getting clocked and disapprove of this. It's like trying not to laugh when your five year old kid just pantsed your bastard father-in-law.

[Anaxagoras]

Why even bother resisting arrest for jaywalking? Talk to the cop like a human fucking being, take your god damn ticket, and live with it. You don't blatantly jaywalk right into the path of a cop car either, that's just retarded.

Why even bother arresting people for jaywalking? Talk to the civilians like human fucking beings, give them a god damn warning, and live with it. You don't blatantly punch a civilian right in the face either, that's just retarded.

[Pogo]

Talking to the civilians like human beings is what he was doing before the camera started rolling. What happens when the civilians don't act like human beings back? Of course, that's when the camera turns on, eh?

[Anaxagoras]

Talking to the civilians like human beings is what he was doing before the camera started rolling. What happens when the civilians don't act like human beings back? Of course, that's when the camera turns on, eh?

Talking to the cop like a human being was what they were doing before the camera started rolling. What happens when the cop doesn't act like a human being back?

You're damn right that's when the camera turns on, eh?

[Raife]

He should have just tased her, duh.

[Hans Lauring]

Talking to the civilians like human beings is what he was doing before the camera started rolling. What happens when the civilians don't act like human beings back? Of course, that's when the camera turns on, eh?

We expect more of cops than we do random civilians, that's why we let them have guns, nightsticks, tasers and katanas... or whatever it is your guys carry around.

Sometimes the people you're supposed to protect and serve act like assholes, and that's when you have to remember that "hey, I am a trained professional" and not some random bully.

[Pogo]

Talking to the cop like a human being was what they were doing before the camera started rolling. What happens when the cop doesn't act like a human being back?

You're damn right that's when the camera turns on, eh?

So you're doubting the news story, then? You don't think the video shows enough evidence to make the claim that the women could have been "verbally antagonistic" in the first place?

[Anaxagoras]

He should have just tased her, duh.

heh. That's my vote. At least then there's a spectacle. A cop throwing a punch just doesn't have the oomph of a tasing.

By the way, Pogo. I don't actually know who started that altercation. Hell, it's not even clear what "started" means. What I was doing was illustrating the stupidity of your assumptions, and how easily (and equally unjustifiably) they can be flipped around. The only analysis that makes any sense (given that that video is the only evidence we have) are the comments of Tim & Mark, who correctly state that that cop was not in control, and thus doing a piss poor job. Any attack on the jaywalkers is unwarranted. Not because they aren't at fault, but because we have no way of knowing if they were at fault. Not yet, at any rate. If there's a court case or disciplinary hearing, a better informed judgement could be made.

[Pogo]

Well, I agree in a way. At this moment I'm only taking the news report for its word, which is admittedly risky considering how many often official statements don't jive with the events after an investigation.

[Anaxagoras]

So you're doubting the news story, then? You don't think the video shows enough evidence to make the claim that the women could have been "verbally antagonistic" in the first place?

It's our fucking right to be "verbally antagonistic" to officers of the law.

There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and if I were discussing this with someone rational we could hash out where those lines are. But I'm talking with you at the moment, and I already know your position that if someone sneezes in a non-respectful manner at a cop, they should be beaten.*

*Note: this paragraph may contain hyperbole for humour's sake. No hyperboles were harmed in the making of this paragraph.

[Murbella]

Arresting someone for jaywalking seems a bit much, but the correct response to that is not to resist arrest and bait the cop in order to make some youtube video (the fake crying she tried to start a couple times while at the same time resisting arresting just as fiercely was hilarious).

I feel bad for the cop personally. He will likely lose just because that is how the attitude towards the police is (I can see the headlines now, "White Police Officer punches young black woman in face for jaywalking"). He was just in a shit poor situation where he was probably afraid her friends were going to start attacking him (it did look like one of the guys was thinking about jumping in).

I'd say he probably should have just tased her the 5th time she told him to get the fuck off of her and called it a day. Although these days people complain just as much if you use a taser, saying you should somehow talk someone like that down (impossible).

If she had been "verbally antagonistic" while getting in the police car without fighting back, it seems pretty clear she wouldn't have got punched in the face.

[Pogo]

It's our fucking right to be "verbally antagonistic" to officers of the law.

There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and if I were discussing this with someone rational we could hash out where those lines are. But I'm talking with you at the moment, and I already know your position that if someone sneezes in a non-respectful manner at a cop, they should be beaten.*

*Note: this paragraph may contain hyperbole for humour's sake. No hyperboles were harmed in the making of this paragraph.

Jumping the hedge already? I wasn't even trolling. You sure come out with it nice and quickly. Better to just get it out of the way, I suppose.

[Kalle]

The situation was out of control, and the officer should not have let it come to that point. Honestly, pulling a taser seems like a better option in this particular instance.

[Pogo]

Whatever happened to good 'ol mace anyways?

[StGabe]

Yeah, this isn't about jaywalking. It's about a cop being 2-on-1'ed by people who are physically attempting to resist a ticketing (not arrest -- he wasn't "arresting them for jaywalking"). The whole jaywalking angle is just a non sequitur with the intent of inciting outrage because, hey, who wouldn't be pissed at getting a ticket for jaywalking.

Now was the punch a bit overboard? Yeah, probably. That said it's not clear what he should have done either. You can insinuate that this guy has magical cop skills that will allow him to "get control of the situation" all you want but it's clear that he was trying and (for whatever reason) failing to do exactly that. I'm not sure what "calling in backup" is supposed to do when the whole problem started because the girls were leaving the scene.

[Mark Asher]

The punch was uncalled for based on the video. The teenage girl wasn't attacking him. She tried to push his arm away from the other girl. The cop lost his cool.

The teens were out of line too, but that officer needs to handle those kinds of situations better. I think we hold our police to a higher standard.

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, this isn't about jaywalking. It's about a cop being 2-on-1'ed by people who are physically attempting to resist a ticketing (not arrest -- he wasn't "arresting them for jaywalking"). The whole jaywalking angle is just a non sequitur with the intent of inciting outrage because, hey, who wouldn't be pissed at getting a ticket for jaywalking.

Now was the punch a bit overboard? Yeah, probably. That said it's not clear what he should have done either. You can insinuate that this guy has magical cop skills that will allow him to "get control of the situation" all you want but it's clear that he was trying and (for whatever reason) failing to do exactly that. I'm not sure what "calling in backup" is supposed to do when the whole problem started because the girls were leaving the scene.

He's lucky the punch didn't escalate it more. I could see something like that easily incite other people nearby.

[StGabe]

The teens were out of line too, but that officer needs to handle those kinds of situations better. I think we hold our police to a higher standard.

How, exactly?

[Lunch of Kong]

Yeah. The officer lost his composure after the woman shoved/assaulted him. I think he punched her to try to regain control of the situation because he knew he had lost it at that point.

While I don't know if "punch" was the correct option, it seemed to work to regain control of the immediate situation. Probably won't work to regain control of the PR situation.

[Lorini]

If he wanted to handcuff her or all of them or even call in for back up, fine. Punching her in the face is assault and she'll happily collect her six figures from the city. Cops are trained not to let people get to them like that just because it does cost cities money.

Cops have to know by now that they are being videotaped and if they do something the least bit stupid, it will wind up on YouTube and most like the local news too. May not be fair or even right, but there's nothing they can do to change it. Right now, the LA cops are in trouble for mistreating a bicyclist, again caught on video and uploaded to YouTube.

It's a different world and really probably better for all concerned.

[Lorini]

How, exactly?

Well, like I said, she'll certainly get at least $100,000 for that punch. That's how we hold cops to a higher standard.

[StGabe]

Well, like I said, she'll certainly get at least $100,000 for that punch. That's how we hold cops to a higher standard.

You didn't answer my question. For example he was trying to handcuff the girl (as you suggest) but she and her friend physically resisted and he wasn't able to. What next?

[Lunch of Kong]

Lorini, she shoved him. That's assault.

[Marcus]

lol $100,000 for a punch.

[Lorini]

You didn't answer my question. For example he was trying to handcuff the girl (as you suggest) but she and her friend physically resisted and he wasn't able to. What next?

Call in backup? C'mon, if she were some strong 250 pound guy and he couldn't hand cuff him, do you think he'd punch him in the face? I don't think so. He punched her because he was bigger than she was.

[Lorini]

lol $100,000 for a punch.

Bet. I'll take you to lunch if I lose :)

[Kebooo]

I'll let a cop punch me in the face for a lot less than $100,000. Where do I sign up?

[Dan_Theman]

You didn't answer my question. For example he was trying to handcuff the girl (as you suggest) but she and her friend physically resisted and he wasn't able to. What next?
I vote for lightning bolt! (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw)

[Houngan]

Call in backup? C'mon, if she were some strong 250 pound guy and he couldn't hand cuff him, do you think he'd punch him in the face? I don't think so. He punched her because he was bigger than she was.


No, she was bigger than him. Granted it was just having a fat ass, but I bet she tipped the scale higher.

Head over to the taser thread, I've never been a fan or apologist for police brutality. This wasn't that. A woman was resisting arrest (and should have been thrown down with a knee in her back, he was being too kind) and then her friend started helping her resist/assault the officer. I've got no problem with anything here.

H.

[StGabe]

Call in backup? C'mon, if she were some strong 250 pound guy and he couldn't hand cuff him, do you think he'd punch him in the face? I don't think so. He punched her because he was bigger than she was.

My point is that I'm not sure you guys should criticize him until you can at least come with at least one workable idea for what he should have done. Call in backup? The start of the problem was that as soon as he started to ticket them they just started to leave. "You gals just stay here while I go to my car and call backup, ok?"

I agree that punching her doesn't seem ideal. I just think there's an awful lot of stupid armchair policing going on that doesn't actually make sense. Being a cop doesn't give you magical powers. He was attempting to control the situation through means that you suggest (i.e. hand-cuffing her) and failing.

[Blackadar]

I feel bad for the cop personally. He will likely lose just because that is how the attitude towards the police is (I can see the headlines now, "White Police Officer punches young black woman in face for jaywalking"). He was just in a shit poor situation where he was probably afraid her friends were going to start attacking him (it did look like one of the guys was thinking about jumping in).


You feel bad for a 180 pound guy carrying weapons trained in combat techniques punching a 150 pound, 17 year old girl in the mouth. For jaywalking.

I got nothin'.


You're right about a couple of things. One, he did put himself into a shit poor situation. Two, he's lucky he didn't get jumped. In some of my old neighborhoods, we'd have killed that motherfucker on the spot.

[Lorini]

lol $100,000 for a punch.


No, she was bigger than him. Granted it was just having a fat ass, but I bet she tipped the scale higher.

Head over to the taser thread, I've never been a fan or apologist for police brutality. This wasn't that. A woman was resisting arrest (and should have been thrown down with a knee in her back, he was being too kind) and then her friend started helping her resist/assault the officer. I've got no problem with anything here.

H.

I didn't say it was police brutality. I'm saying it was completely unnecessary and will lead to a settlement by the city. Had he called in back up and handcuffed her we wouldn't even be discussing this.

I'm also saying that had he been a 6'5 280 pound man, he wouldn't have punched him, he would have done what he should have done to begin with.

[ElGuapo]

That picture is hi-larious. Is there an animated .gif of this yet?

[Lunch of Kong]

For jaywalking.


No. He punched her after she assaulted him. Video clearly shows the woman in fuchsia top shoving the police officer. After he regains his balance, he controls her hand closest to him and then punches her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0WTcTzN96s

Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

[ElGuapo]

You feel bad for a 180 pound guy carrying weapons trained in combat techniques punching a 150 pound, 17 year old girl in the mouth. For jaywalking.

I got nothin'.


You're right about a couple of things. One, he did put himself into a shit poor situation. Two, he's lucky he didn't get jumped. In some of my old neighborhoods, we'd have killed that motherfucker on the spot.

Wow, really? So I guess the lesson for him in your old neighborhood would be, draw your weapon and start firing into the crowd, lest you be killed. And bring extra clips. Right?

[Genji]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012122660_coppunch16m.html

Another article on the incident.

[Mister Widget]

No. He punched her after she assaulted him. Video clearly shows the woman in fuchsia top shoving the police officer. After he regains his balance, he controls her hand closest to him and then punches her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0WTcTzN96s

Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

Indeed. I'll save my outrage for cases where the cops are clearly over the line. This is not such a case. Once she starts the shoving match, of course she's going to get punched, or tazed. How else would anyone expect it to end after that?

[Lunch of Kong]

had he been a 6'5 280 pound man, he wouldn't have punched him, he would have done what he should have done to begin with.

I think cops should be free to choose from a number of graduated options suited to deal with the differing levels of threats from hostile suspects. I don't think there is a 1 size fits all way to deal with all situations. I certainly don't think options that may be warranted to control a 280-lb guy throwing punches should automatically apply to controlling a 90-lb high school kid, for example.

I don't want cops given some kind of you-must-always-do-it-like-this kind of instruction. Guidelines, sure. Blanket polices, no.

I don't know if a punch was the best way to defuse this cop assault situation, but it did defuse it.

[Jason McCullough]

This sort of thing points out how stupid it is to have laws where the offender is almost never caught, rarely enforced when they are, and only at police discretion. In that situation people will react badly when they get cited; if they happen to be minority and young they'll react even worse; we've actively bred disrespect for the law.

On a side note, for some anecdata I've never even heard of anyone getting nailed for jaywalking in whitebread north seattle - only in downtown or black/asian south. IT IS A MYSTERY WHY.

[StGabe]

Note that this not the first time that either girl has been charged with assault, one having previously assaulted a police officer.

To me it mostly just looks like a shitty situation that got out of hand but I find a hard time judging the police officer too harshly for what occurred given that the girls were resisting ticketing (then arrest) and were assaulting him. I just don't see how he was supposed to magically make the situation better.

[Mark Asher]

My point is that I'm not sure you guys should criticize him until you can at least come with at least one workable idea for what he should have done. Call in backup? The start of the problem was that as soon as he started to ticket them they just started to leave. "You gals just stay here while I go to my car and call backup, ok?"

I agree that punching her doesn't seem ideal. I just think there's an awful lot of stupid armchair policing going on that doesn't actually make sense. Being a cop doesn't give you magical powers. He was attempting to control the situation through means that you suggest (i.e. hand-cuffing her) and failing.

I think maybe taking a step or two back and trying to calm down everyone might have worked. I certainly don't think having his arm shoved warranted him throwing a punch.

That was an expensive punch, too. I don't know if it will cost the city $100,000, but it's likely going to cost them legal fees and the cost of an investigation.

And finally, I don't know if it's Seattle police policy or it was just this officer's idea, but handing out tickets for jaywalking doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It's going to inflame people.

Apparently they love handing out tickets for jaywalking, though. I've never seen or heard of that happening here in St. Louis. We simply enjoy having one of the top murder rates in the country!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2003305511_danny15.html

[Blackadar]

Wow, really? So I guess the lesson for him in your old neighborhood would be, draw your weapon and start firing into the crowd, lest you be killed. And bring extra clips. Right?

Dude, in at least one of the neighborhoods I grew up in, the cops wouldn't even come there. The Jamaican drug gangs owned that territory and those fuckers were crazy. So yeah, if he did it there (and especially to the wrong girl), he'd have been shot dead on the spot.

Simply put, cops don't have the right to punch people because they were shoved. Whether she was wrong or not doesn't excuse his excessive force. Cops are trained to deal with this kind of shit, and punching a 17 year old girl in the face for jostling with the officer isn't the right force escalation.

[ReptileHouse]

And finally, I don't know if it's Seattle police policy or it was just this officer's idea, but handing out tickets for jaywalking doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It's going to inflame people.

Very relevant question. From the above referenced Seattle Times article:


The incident occurred about 3 p.m. Monday near Franklin High, where staff and the school district's central office had requested increased police monitoring because they were concerned about the number of students jaywalking.

My inference is the school was concerned about student safety and/or had been getting lots of complaints about students in the road(s). So they asked the cops to crack down on it, which they apparently were doing.

[ElGuapo]

I just finished watching the video. You've got to be kidding me. If I was that cop I would have drawn my weapon. Did you see what happened after it was two on one and he hit her? The other girl jumped on his back. I would be fearful she would take my weapon at that point.

Not that this cop was not being an asshole, but these girls were way out of line. Take your ticket and be done with it. Jaywalking should not be an arrestable offense, but attacking a cop is. What if he cited them for say, smoking on the metro and they refused to take the ticket and/or started trying to get away?

I don't know about where you live, Jason, but around here crossing a busy street not at a crosswalk is illegal, and I'm glad it is. It's likely you will either disrupt traffic at best, or at worst be hit. I've read about and seen several people be hit by cars, and it's so stupid because they are always no more than a hundred feet from a crosswalk where they could cross safely. You end up having pedestrians killed and drivers having to deal with that awful event just because someone was feeling lazy.

[Flowers]

He should have broken the smaller girl's wrist, radioed on his collar, given her a DDT and hurricane kicked the big girl in the turkeybox. Then he should have powered up his ki for a galaxy smash which scrambles cameras.

Honestly, he wasn't doing anything wrong, that big girl involved herself physically in an altercation where an individual was resisting arrest. That's one of those things that police use of force is for.

[Timemaster Tim]

This sort of thing points out how stupid it is to have laws where the offender is almost never caught, rarely enforced when they are, and only at police discretion. In that situation people will react badly when they get cited; if they happen to be minority and young they'll react even worse; we've actively bred disrespect for the law.

On a side note, for some anecdata I've never even heard of anyone getting nailed for jaywalking in whitebread north seattle - only in downtown or black/asian south. IT IS A MYSTERY WHY.

Jaywalking enforcement in Seattle is so well entrenched that there is even a QT3 thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=34338) devoted to it.

[Tim James]

Haha, he got shoved by a girl.

[Flowers]

I will tell you this, after losing a fight to an old man and his dog so that they could really bond, being in a situation where you are justified popping a fat lady in the beefcatcher is probably my number one favorite fight to dream about.

[Pogo]

Simply put, cops don't have the right to punch people because they were shoved.

Seriously, dude? I can agree with Anax's argument that spouting vulgarities at a cop is undeserving of arrest in itself, but shoving a cop most certainly gives him the right to kick your ass. I know I'm taking you out of context, but you took yourself out of context here. He was shoved/antagonized by an outsider while attempting to arrest someone else.

And this wasn't happening in the Fallujah, South Side Wisconsin Reprazent areas where you roam the streets, so try not to bring up some bullshit about a cop being shot if he did this, because this situation never would have happened in the first place on the mean streets of whatever lower-middle class suburban paradise you grew up in.

[TimElhajj]

How, exactly?

Not punching her in the face is a good place to start.

[TimElhajj]

I'll let a cop punch me in the face for a lot less than $100,000. Where do I sign up?

The back of the line is over there!

[StGabe]

I can agree with Anax's argument that spouting vulgarities at a cop is undeserving of arrest in itself ...

Which of course had nothing to do with what was going on. According to the articles the girls refused to stop and be ticketed by the cop and this escalated into physical resistance.

[StGabe]

Not punching her in the face is a good place to start.

Yay for continuing to not answer the question ...

[Angie Gallant]

I hate driving in downtown Seattle because a number of pedestrians have no healthy fear of what a car could do to them at all. I have to jump on the breaks to avoid hurting someone just wandering out into the street without paying attention at least once a trip.

[TimElhajj]

My point is that I'm not sure you guys should criticize him until you can at least come with at least one workable idea for what he should have done. Call in backup? The start of the problem was that as soon as he started to ticket them they just started to leave. "You gals just stay here while I go to my car and call backup, ok?"

I agree that punching her doesn't seem ideal. I just think there's an awful lot of stupid armchair policing going on that doesn't actually make sense. Being a cop doesn't give you magical powers. He was attempting to control the situation through means that you suggest (i.e. hand-cuffing her) and failing.

I have no idea what he should have done, but I'm guessing there is a class in police school on what to do and that it doesn't include punch the girl in the face.

[Staff Sergeant]

Watching that video makes me sad that the best a cop could do to a 17 year old girl was punch her in the face. Assuming that she was not trained in any sort of hand-to-hand combat (they appeared to be violently holding hands for most of it), do they not train cops on how to do a few simple throwdowns? A knee in the back/your face hitting the ground makes a person a whole lot more cooperative, or at least a lot less of a problem.

[Tim James]

I hate driving in downtown Seattle because a number of pedestrians have no healthy fear of what a car could do to them at all.
Franklin High should show a video of brutal pedestrian fatalities. Especially those that involved the demon drink! And skeevy Johnny trying to feel up Mary, before leading her on a daredevil walk across the street.

I could market this.

[TheTrunkDr]

Sensationalist video is sensationalist!

The problem with these sorts of violent videos is they contain violence which people abhor. It's the same with slaughtering livestock, no matter how humanely you do it people will always be offended by it, even while they're grilling up a steak.

This was a minor use of violence in a situation with a single officer dealing with a person resisting arrest and another assaulting him and several others were getting belligerent and agitated. A bloody nose is likely the best outcome one could hope for in this situation.

Lesson: don't fight with cops, it's never worth it and will always make your situation worse.

[Dravalen]

I hate driving in downtown Seattle because a number of pedestrians have no healthy fear of what a car could do to them at all. I have to jump on the breaks to avoid hurting someone just wandering out into the street without paying attention at least once a trip.
Yep, drive through downtown every day and the number of people I see jaywalking/running across the crosswalk at the yellow is just insane.

[BobJustBob]

And finally, I don't know if it's Seattle police policy or it was just this officer's idea, but handing out tickets for jaywalking doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It's going to inflame people.

Yeah how dare those law enforcement officers try to enforce the law. Don't they know it pisses off the criminals?

[Mark Asher]

I've always considered the walk/don't walk lights as suggestive only. I actually thought that if I crossed at a crosswalk, it was legal for me to do so even if I didn't have the walk sign. Not that I bother with crosswalks all that much. It amazes me not only that they write tickets for jaywalking in Seattle, but you can get one while using a crosswalk.

All I can think is that Seattle must be a relatively crime-free city.

[Jason McCullough]

I don't know about where you live, Jason, but around here crossing a busy street not at a crosswalk is illegal, and I'm glad it is. It's likely you will either disrupt traffic at best, or at worst be hit.

While an accurate description of why it's legal, it doesn't really have anything to do with my observation that the current enforcement system doesn't work and creates contempt for the law.

The ACLU weighs in (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/16/jaywalking-enforcement-has-long-history-of-escalating-to-violence).


This is not an isolated incident. The Seattle Police Department has a long history of allowing jaywalking citations to escalate into use of force situations. The pattern is very predictable: The officer sees a jaywalker, orders the person to come to him, gets angry when the jaywalker either doesn’t respond or argues, and ends up either in a physical confrontation or an arrest for an obstruction charge or both.

This isn’t just an ACLU observation. The Office of Police Accountability (OPA) auditors have been citing this problem since at least 2003 (those are the oldest reports available on line), excerpted below.

The current incident is yet another example of the problem—a minor infraction outside of a racially diverse high school escalating into a physical altercation with African-American youth. And it serves to reinforce the feeling within the African-American community that their young people are primary targets of police misuse of power. While the OPA will review this particular incident, the City also needs to make significant changes in its policing policies and practices to end these unnecessary confrontations.

[Telefrog]

Lesson: don't fight with cops, it's never worth it and will always make your situation worse.

Unless you get a fat payday out of it.

[Pogo]

All I can think is that Seattle must be a relatively crime-free city.

Come on dude, don't go there. Cities have districts, and districts have varying degrees of crime. By implying that cops have better things to do, you may as well be saying that the boys in blue should be busting into Worldcom Headquarters and punching them in the face.

The more important thing with these types of street arrests is visibility, a reminder that we have laws and that these laws matter. Unfortunately the way he handled it is going to possibly have an opposite effect.

[TheTrunkDr]

I have no idea what he should have done, but I'm guessing there is a class in police school on what to do and that it doesn't include punch the girl in the face.
Once it gets to assaulting an officer level I'm willing to bet it does include punching in the face, along with taking out the nightstick/pepper spray/taser/gun.


Watching that video makes me sad that the best a cop could do to a 17 year old girl was punch her in the face. Assuming that she was not trained in any sort of hand-to-hand combat (they appeared to be violently holding hands for most of it), do they not train cops on how to do a few simple throwdowns? A knee in the back/your face hitting the ground makes a person a whole lot more cooperative, or at least a lot less of a problem.
Throwing people to the ground is ill advised when you're out numbered. To me it looked like he was trying to get the girl against the car to cuff her or in the car without escalating the violence and actually hurting her.

[TimElhajj]

Watching that video makes me sad that the best a cop could do to a 17 year old girl was punch her in the face. Assuming that she was not trained in any sort of hand-to-hand combat (they appeared to be violently holding hands for most of it), do they not train cops on how to do a few simple throwdowns? A knee in the back/your face hitting the ground makes a person a whole lot more cooperative, or at least a lot less of a problem.

Dig it, man. Every cop or MP I have ever had the misfortune to tussle with was an expert at fucking me up. I just seems inept on so many levels.

[Mark Asher]

Yeah how dare those law enforcement officers try to enforce the law. Don't they know it pisses off the criminals?

We're equating jaywalkers as criminals now? You ever jaywalked? You ever forget to signal when changing lanes? Not come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Not park close enough to the curb?

Are you a criminal, BobJustBob?

[ElGuapo]

Well, or the youths could be jerks who feel they are above the law. What, do they think that a white teenager who jaywalks in front of a cop and then tries to just leave when he attempts to cite them are just going to be let go?

"Hey, fuck off officer, I'm white, I don't have to take a ticket from you."

I don't see how the police department would change its policies. You cite them for something illegal and they simply walk away. Do you just let them? That's a good way to make the cops look impotent and lose respect in the community.

[Staff Sergeant]

Well his strategy wasn't exactly the most effective for dealing with numbers either. He ended up with one on his back, and if any of them were not completely retarded they would have gone for his weapons (because if you are going to fight a cop, do it right damnit). I agree though that he didn't have a lot of options in this case. If I was him my taser would have been out as soon as the second person interfered with the initial arrest.

EDIT: Actually this is kind of hilarious. Police taser grandmothers when they get uppity at traffic stops but this guy goes hand to hand with a group of 4 teenagers.

[TimElhajj]

Seattle is notorious for enforcing the stupid jaywalking laws, but jaywalking happens everywhere. I am so amused at all the reports of jaywalking by Seattle drivers, as if the "jaywalking problem" has gotten to epic proportions. We obviously need a "War on Jaywalking."

[TimElhajj]

I don't see how the police department would change its policies. You cite them for something illegal and they simply walk away. Do you just let them? That's a good way to make the cops look impotent and lose respect in the community.

As opposed to punching girls in the face? -- We had to do it. For we want to look potent and gain your respect.

Hearts and minds, baby. Hearts and minds.

[TimElhajj]

The alternative policy is to get an entire group of officers to show up en-mass with the paddy wagon to cite jaywalkers. I have seen it happen in the U district. It's just amazing that they can afford to do it. Jaywalking is really serious business in Seattle.

[Eilonwy]

It seems like the cop handled this badly from the start. While she shouldn't have walked away, at least from what we see in the video in the beginning he doesn't seem to be trying to get her near the hood of his car, but he has his hand holding on to her neck, which is what is escalating the situation with her yelling for him (in very colorful language) to remove his hand from her neck.

It's also different from the account the police give in which he grabs her arm and escorts her back to the car. He's clearly got his hand on her neck at the start of the video.

[ElGuapo]

I don't know, you are the head of the police department. How would you handle it?

1. Stop ticketing people for jaywalking/repeal the law

2. If someone refuses a ticket or direction to present themselves for a ticket, let them keep walking

3. If someone confronts you when presented and grabs you and shoves you, direct officers to deescalate, call for backup, and retreat

What would you have them do, exactly? I mean this is common sense. If you are violent towards a police officer performing his or her duty, expect some violence in return. You don't grab a police officer or jump on top of them and then go "oh, he hit me, that's ever so mean!" They have guns and weapons on them, they can't let the public go grabbing their person.

[TimElhajj]

You can't take away the officer's ability to defend his person. But you can't ignore an officer who gets himself into a fix like this. The crowd was clearly against him and cheering for those girls, which seems like a terrible situation to create.

Why can't he call for backup to deal with the girls while he continues to enforce the crosswalk? If the entire crowd sees that he cannot ticket this one girl and decides to scoff the law, then what should he do? I have no idea. But if it's a multiple choice test and one of the answers is "A) punch the girl in the face" I'm gonna have to say that's not the best choice.

[Blackadar]

Seriously, dude? I can agree with Anax's argument that spouting vulgarities at a cop is undeserving of arrest in itself, but shoving a cop most certainly gives him the right to kick your ass. I know I'm taking you out of context, but you took yourself out of context here. He was shoved/antagonized by an outsider while attempting to arrest someone else.

And this wasn't happening in the Fallujah, South Side Wisconsin Reprazent areas where you roam the streets, so try not to bring up some bullshit about a cop being shot if he did this, because this situation never would have happened in the first place on the mean streets of whatever lower-middle class suburban paradise you grew up in.

Yeah, Washington DC is a middle class suburban paradise. And Brockton, MA was a real garden spot when I grew up there. Damn, you got me there. Now stick to what you know, lest we get personal.

The cop fucked up, lost control of the situation (and one that probably should have never been created in the first place) and then over-reacted to his loss of control. It's really that simple in my book - his escalation of force was entirely unnecessary. You think it's justified. Fine. We aren't going to agree.

[Brian Seiler]

Ehhh.....I give it a 4 on the "I Could Kick Your Ass in Real Life" scale.

[Matthew Gallant]

I've always considered the walk/don't walk lights as suggestive only. I actually thought that if I crossed at a crosswalk, it was legal for me to do so even if I didn't have the walk sign. Not that I bother with crosswalks all that much. It amazes me not only that they write tickets for jaywalking in Seattle, but you can get one while using a crosswalk.
It really depends on the traffic situation. In Seattle, there are lots of places where pedestrian traffic has to be controlled or else there will be traffic jams and accidents. Actually, I shouldn't say "accident". Sometimes, the people who cross against the signal or outside of the crosswalk are what amounts to trying to be winged or outright hit by a car. I have seen nearly the full range of jaywalkers just driving to work-- from the scofflaw that's in no danger to people who are somehow still alive. I haven't seen anyone hit, yet, although one of my less brilliant co-workers had a hospital vacation from a misadventure at a non-signaled crosswalk near the office.

Not all crosswalks have pedestrian signals, but the ones that have them are very much needed. We have four lane streets with reaction time-reducing bends and lots of hilly streets that also reduce your far forward visibility.

[Pogo]

We're equating jaywalkers as criminals now? You ever jaywalked? You ever forget to signal when changing lanes? Not come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Not park close enough to the curb?

Are you a criminal, BobJustBob?

I already told you to stop with the bullshit in a previous post. All of those actions are ticketable offenses for good reason. Stop putting words in his mouth about what degree of criminal offense he was talking about. Without enforcement of those violations, and their awareness of punishment for them, even less people would respect those common sense laws.

Cops that write tickets for jaywalking and parking violations aren't the same cops investigating armed robberies and murders. So, again, cut the shit.

[Matthew Gallant]

I am so amused at all the reports of jaywalking by Seattle drivers, as if the "jaywalking problem" has gotten to epic proportions. We obviously need a "War on Jaywalking."
It is a problem-- mainly it's a problem for the pedestrians, because they are going to get their stupid asses hurt or killed.

[Houngan]

Yeah, Washington DC is a middle class suburban paradise. And Brockton, MA was a real garden spot when I grew up there. Damn, you got me there. Now stick to what you know, lest we get personal.

The cop fucked up, lost control of the situation (and one that probably should have never been created in the first place) and then over-reacted to his loss of control. It's really that simple in my book - his escalation of force was entirely unnecessary. You think it's justified. Fine. We aren't going to agree.

Horseshit. The "situation" was that she refused to comply with an officer of the law, then resisted arrest, and that's where we joined the situation. The situation didn't change until the pink gal grabbed the officer and tried to stop him from handcuffing the other girl, when she started yanking him around he popped her one and she let go. He then went back to trying to handcuff the other girl.

Those are the cold, hard facts. What should he have done? Rather than issue blanket statements and air out your street cred, just say what other action he should have taken, and then we can discuss whether or not it would be a reasonable course.

H.

[Murbella]

So they can't punch them, can't tase them and cant use the nightstick on them?

Gorman: Apone! Look... we can't have any firing in there. I, uh... I want you to collect magazines from everybody.
Hudson: Is he fuckin' crazy?
Frost: What the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh language*?


*of course if he actually used harsh language on her it still would have been posted on youtube.

[Mark Asher]

I already told you to stop with the bullshit in a previous post. All of those actions are ticketable offenses for good reason. Stop putting words in his mouth about what degree of criminal offense he was talking about. Without enforcement of those violations, and their awareness of punishment for them, even less people would respect those common sense laws.

Cops that write tickets for jaywalking and parking violations aren't the same cops investigating armed robberies and murders. So, again, cut the shit.

You're actually telling me to shut up because I don't agree with your view of this incident? Seriously?

You should look at the video again. I think it was normal police involved and not parking police.

[BobJustBob]

We're equating jaywalkers as criminals now? You ever jaywalked? You ever forget to signal when changing lanes? Not come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Not park close enough to the curb?

Are you a criminal, BobJustBob?

Well, yes. Jaywalking is against the law. Breaking the law is a crime. People who commit crimes are called criminals.

[Pogo]

You're actually telling me to shut up because I don't agree with your view of this incident? Seriously?

You really, really have no idea what words, when put into certain combinations in order to form things called sentences, mean.

What you were saying actually had little to do with this incident, and more to do with the flawed way you're thinking about the jobs of police officers.

[Mark Asher]

Horseshit. The "situation" was that she refused to comply with an officer of the law, then resisted arrest, and that's where we joined the situation. The situation didn't change until the pink gal grabbed the officer and tried to stop him from handcuffing the other girl, when she started yanking him around he popped her one and she let go. He then went back to trying to handcuff the other girl.

Those are the cold, hard facts. What should he have done? Rather than issue blanket statements and air out your street cred, just say what other action he should have taken, and then we can discuss whether or not it would be a reasonable course.

H.

As I said, I think he should have backed off and tried to calm everyone down, including himself.

[Jason McCullough]

Well, or the youths could be jerks who feel they are above the law. What, do they think that a white teenager who jaywalks in front of a cop and then tries to just leave when he attempts to cite them are just going to be let go?

White teenagers don't get cited for jaywalking that I, or apparently the ACLU, can see. Yet I personally have seen plenty of white people and teenagers jaywalk. Again, a mystery of law enforcement.


I don't see how the police department would change its policies. You cite them for something illegal and they simply walk away. Do you just let them? That's a good way to make the cops look impotent and lose respect in the community.

Just because you personally cannot think of a better policy doesn't mean a clearly-not-working policy is the best way forward. It's not a "police department" problem either; they're just the enforcement arm. If Seattle government's solution to reducing pedestrian deaths is ticketing people downtown and in South seattle for it, and it's clearly not working (haven't seen any evidence it has, but there's plenty of incidents like this), the government needs to come up with a better solution.

Personally, talking out of my ass, I'd guess the problem is that Seattle street design is far too car-oriented for the population density, with huge gaps between legal crosswalks. There's places on Leary Way you have to walk like 4 damn blocks to cross the street. So people naturally jaywalk. So stop being so car-centric on the street design, maybe.

[Pogo]

Just because personally cannot think of a better policy doesn't mean a clearly-not-working policy is the best war forward.

You can think of a better way to prevent jaywalking?

[Lunch of Kong]

We're equating jaywalkers as criminals now? You ever jaywalked? You ever forget to signal when changing lanes? Not come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Not park close enough to the curb?


I've probably done all of the above.

What I've not done though is escalate a police officer's inquiry into my actions into failure to stop, resisting arrest, or assaulting the police officer. If I did that, I'd expect to receive some bruises and a cut or two during the attempt to subdue me.

[Mordrak]

You can think of a better way to prevent jaywalking?

Dead pedestrians?

[Houngan]

As I said, I think he should have backed off and tried to calm everyone down, including himself.

Perhaps, and thanks for being calm about it. Although considering the rap sheet of those two, I would imagine a lot of screaming and cursing preceded the arrest attempt, but that's just conjecture on my part.

I, for one, would come to my senses if I for some reason pulled away from a cop and he said, "Whoa, think about what you're doing!" But then I'm old and have a lot to lose. Criminal teenagers aren't exactly going to have the same risk/reward calculation. And just to repeat, there's a good chance he did exactly that before it all went sideways.

H.

[Mark Asher]

You really, really have no idea what words, when put into certain combinations in order to form things called sentences, mean.

Apparently, in your estimation, I don't understand that sentences are made up of words. That one really stung me!


What you were saying actually had little to do with this incident, and more to do with the flawed way you're thinking about the jobs of police officers.

Is it beyond the pale of possibility that the way you are thinking about how police officers should handle their jobs may be flawed as well?

[Blackadar]

Horseshit. The "situation" was that she refused to comply with an officer of the law, then resisted arrest, and that's where we joined the situation. The situation didn't change until the pink gal grabbed the officer and tried to stop him from handcuffing the other girl, when she started yanking him around he popped her one and she let go. He then went back to trying to handcuff the other girl.

Those are the cold, hard facts. What should he have done? Rather than issue blanket statements and air out your street cred, just say what other action he should have taken, and then we can discuss whether or not it would be a reasonable course.

H.

OC spray.

Typically a punch to the face is higher up on the escalation list than OC spray. You can't tell me he couldn't have pulled that out sometime prior to the physical confrontation.

I just don't see the cop punching the girl as the correct way to diffuse the situation. If the police chief stands behind the officer to the point that he sees nothing wrong, then should this video be shown in police training classes as the right way to handle a non-compliant suspect? While punching is in the escalation of force, where is it in relation to OC, tasers, etc for use in subduing suspects and what rules do they have in relationship to size, age, etc.

And a few other notes.

1) No, we didn't see what happened at the beginning, but the fact that the situation escalated from jaywalking to "struggling with two suspects" leads me to believe that if the cop was trying to defuse the situation, he was completely unsuccessful at it. Otherwise, how does a simple jaywalking stop become a 2 1/2 minute wrestling match with two women? So in this he failed entirely.

2) My guess is that he bypassed a couple of steps on the escalation of force list. That's not something to just throw away. It's what is supposed to protect the public from a cop shooting a 70 year old woman with a broom. It applies to all citizens. And if Seattle's escalation list has a punch in the face being the primary option in dealing with a 17 year old girl who is resisting arrest, then there are more serious problems with that PD than we realize.

3) Completely ineffective crowd control. By allowing the struggling to go on for so long, a crowd had gathered and the cop is VERY lucky that nothing bad happened to him. Again, this suggests that he wasn't relying on his training or wasn't trained very well.

[ElGuapo]

White teenagers don't get cited for jaywalking that I can see. Wonder why.

You think it's a conspiracy of jaywalking enforcement?

Better yet, some whitey in city hall probably noticed a bunch of them coloreds jaywalking, and decided to teach them a lesson. Racist Jim Crow laws!

It's jaywalking, man. Not the most serious crime in the world, and the butt of many fine jokes. But when you see someone get hit by a car that otherwise wouldn't have, you realize it's for the protection of those pedestrians, not some racist conspiracy theory.

Guess what, as another counterpoint? Only the black kids are getting hit by the cars! Most people swerve around the white kids.

I don't think I can roll my eyes hard enough for you to get the point here, McCullough.

[Kebooo]

Why don't we just make phasers with different levels of stun?

Actually, more seriously, are there "low level" tasers, something that might produce a similar effect of punching her, but without the added chance to break her jaw or knock out teeth? It seems most tasing temporarily cripples people due to incredible pain, is there no intermediate tool?

[TimElhajj]

It is a problem-- mainly it's a problem for the pedestrians, because they are going to get their stupid asses hurt or killed.

I don't notice it, but I rarely get into Seattle.

I lived in NYC for many years and there were many jaywalkers there who managed to stay alive. Not just in the wide, grid like streets of Manhattan (where vehicle traffic is probably easier to predict), but in the windy streets of the Bronx as well.

[BlueJackalope]

White teenagers don't get cited for jaywalking that I, or apparently the ACLU, can see. Yet I personally have seen plenty of white people and teenagers jaywalk. Again, a mystery of law enforcement.

FWIW I am white and have received a jaywalking ticket in Seattle. Managed to make it though the whole silly exchange without sassmouthing or knuckle-catching.

[Mordrak]

You think it's a conspiracy of jaywalking enforcement?

Better yet, some whitey in city hall probably noticed a bunch of them coloreds jaywalking, and decided to teach them a lesson. Racist Jim Crow laws!

It's jaywalking, man. Not the most serious crime in the world, and the butt of many fine jokes. But when you see someone get hit by a car that otherwise wouldn't have, you realize it's for the protection of those pedestrians, not some racist conspiracy theory.

Guess what, as another counterpoint? Only the black kids are getting hit by the cars! Most people swerve around the white kids.

I don't think I can roll my eyes hard enough for you to get the point here, McCullough.



Jason's point is that cops may use offenses like jaywalking as a lead-in to further investigate. If the cop is already racial profiling, they'll use jaywalking as the excuse for the stop. Not that they go out of their way to prosecute blacks for jaywalking just because they are black and everyone in law enforcement is secretly racist.

Now, in spirit, Jason's point seems correct, but the cop I knew wouldn't wait for jaywalking. He make something up during the stop if they don't notice anything off hand. He basically said, you can always find a reason to stop someone afterward. He was talking about pulling someone over though. On foot, I'm not sure if the legal dynamic changes.

[Dan Lawrence]

As a committed pedestrian I love that jaywalking doesn't even exist as an offence in the UK. In fact, in a complete reversal, pedestrians have priority when crossing on unmarked roads according to the highway code. I am a supporter of face punching in general though, so this incident leaves me conflicted.

[Pogo]

Is it beyond the pale of possibility that the way you are thinking about how police officers should handle their jobs may be flawed as well?

Maybe. But it would be silly as hell for me to think that I know a better way to structure the system in a better way than what we have.

But I might start by not making stupid assumptions about how things work, yeah?

[Mark Asher]

It is a problem-- mainly it's a problem for the pedestrians, because they are going to get their stupid asses hurt or killed.

Just curious, but is there something different about Seattle that leads to this unusually rigorous enforcement of jaywalking laws? I'm not being snarky. I haven't heard of this kind of enforcement in other cities, many of them heavily congested also.

[Houngan]

OC spray.

Typically a punch to the face is higher up on the escalation list than OC spray. You can't tell me he couldn't have pulled that out sometime prior to the physical confrontation.

I just don't see the cop punching the girl as the correct way to diffuse the situation. If the police chief stands behind the officer to the point that he sees nothing wrong, then should this video be shown in police training classes as the right way to handle a non-compliant suspect? While punching is in the escalation of force, where is it in relation to OC, tasers, etc for use in subduing suspects and what rules do they have in relationship to size, age, etc.

And a few other notes.

1) No, we didn't see what happened at the beginning, but the fact that the situation escalated from jaywalking to "struggling with two suspects" leads me to believe that if the cop was trying to defuse the situation, he was completely unsuccessful at it. Otherwise, how does a simple jaywalking stop become a 2 1/2 minute wrestling match with two women? So in this he failed entirely.

2) My guess is that he bypassed a couple of steps on the escalation of force list. That's not something to just throw away. It's what is supposed to protect the public from a cop shooting a 70 year old woman with a broom. It applies to all citizens. And if Seattle's escalation list has a punch in the face being the primary option in dealing with a 17 year old girl who is resisting arrest, then there are more serious problems with that PD than we realize.

3) Completely ineffective crowd control. By allowing the struggling to go on for so long, a crowd had gathered and the cop is VERY lucky that nothing bad happened to him. Again, this suggests that he wasn't relying on his training or wasn't trained very well.

Good points all, and I would offer one observation why they may not have applied here:

Up until the point where the other girl enters the struggle, he's got a hold of the first girl, trying to get her to let herself be put against the car to be handcuffed. He is in control of the situation, and he's restraining himself by trying to turn her without hurting her. She isn't kicking at him, spitting on him, or any other form of assault, she's just physically resisting being moved. In this she was very much like a protester that doesn't move and forces the cops to carry them away.

Once the other girl grabs the cop and tries to pull him off the other girl, it's assault, pure and simple. Before he was trying to use physical force to get the girl to do something, which is what we let cops do, within parameters. Then the other girl was trying to force the cop into doing something by physical force, and it just doesn't work both ways.

I'm not saying "it's assault, he can do whatever he wants because the switch got flipped." That's the problem we see all the time over in the taser thread, and I imagine we're on the same page about police over-escalation of force. What I'm saying is that when the situation went from "jackass teenager won't let me cuff her, great." to "Shit she's trying to pull me off of her friend!" Then he immediately focused on the girl that was acting towards him, forgetting the girl that he was acting towards previously.

And when she wouldn't stop trying to force him, he popped her one. He didn't have time to go for pepper spray because it wasn't needed until then, and he didn't have time after she got her ham hooks onto him. If he had hit her again after she let go, I would be completely in agreement with you.

H.

[Jason McCullough]

FWIW I am white and have received a jaywalking ticket in Seattle. Managed to make it though the whole silly exchange without sassmouthing or knuckle-catching.

Were you downtown?


I don't think I can roll my eyes hard enough for you to get the point here, McCullough.

Is there a thread where you don't side with just arresting everyone as a solution to a problem?

Pogo, I outlined a guess below - the problem isn't jaywalking, it's people getting hit by cars. Jaywalking enforcement like we have in Seattle - behavior modification - doesn't actually seem to be an effective way to keep people from getting hit by cars.

I don't know why the city has a history of these policy. Apparently it used to be even worse (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2003305511_danny15.html).

[Nezz]

You can think of a better way to prevent jaywalking?
Anarchy. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html)

[Mordrak]

Is there a thread where you don't side with just arresting everyone as a solution to a problem?


I predict that will happen when he starts a thread seeking help avoiding an illegal weapons trafficking or fraud indictment. Though, he may also just take Prince's lead and go to Dubai.

[Mark Asher]

Maybe. But it would be silly as hell for me to think that I know a better way to structure the system in a better way than what we have.

But I might start by not making stupid assumptions about how things work, yeah?

You know, I get it that you think my comments in this thread are stupid. Did it ever occur to you that we just have different viewpoints? I'm a citizen. The police work for me. I do have an opinion, uninformed as it may be, about how they should do their job. I don't agree with punching a teenage girl in the face because she pushed an officer's arm. Fortunately for that officer, I'm not in a position to render any kind of binding judgement. I'm just a guy on the sidelines, commenting.

[Pogo]

I don't know why the city has a history of these policy. Apparently it used to be even worse (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2003305511_danny15.html).

Well, it's an attempt at enforcement, and like with many things I have to think that a lack of education about the matter keeps citizens making stupid/dangerous decisions (as pedestrians or drivers).

That writer is a bit flawed though... "Sigh. Other cities don't obsess over errant walkers, and function fine." I don't think he's ever been a driver in Philadelphia or New York City with that statement. "Function fine" makes it sound like those two cities don't have very perilous situations for drivers that are forced to try to shove their way through crosswalks that have a stream of people blindly walking when it's not their turn to walk.


You know, I get it that you think my comments in this thread are stupid. Did it ever occur to you that we just have different viewpoints? I'm a citizen. The police work for me. I do have an opinion, uninformed as it may be, about how they should do their job. I don't agree with punching a teenage girl in the face because she pushed an officer's arm. Fortunately for that officer, I'm not in a position to render any kind of binding judgement. I'm just a guy on the sidelines, commenting.

Mark, that's fine. I don't particularly care that we're disagreeing about the cop's actions, I just thought I needed to clarify what I find wrong with the implication that police have better things to do. If this cop wasn't getting a call on his radio to assist somewhere else, or to go to the scene of a more serious crime, then he was doing the job that we're paying him to do.

[Matthew Gallant]

Just curious, but is there something different about Seattle that leads to this unusually rigorous enforcement of jaywalking laws? I'm not being snarky. I haven't heard of this kind of enforcement in other cities, many of them heavily congested also.
Just from my own experience, I would say it's because there are too many outright dangerous jaywalkers.

[Timemaster Tim]

Seattle is notorious for enforcing the stupid jaywalking laws, but jaywalking happens everywhere. I am so amused at all the reports of jaywalking by Seattle drivers, as if the "jaywalking problem" has gotten to epic proportions. We obviously need a "War on Jaywalking."

I don't know what the situation is like in Seattle, but in Toronto, there was a rash of pedestrian fatalities (many related to jaywalking) that resulted in a ticketing blitz (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/756558--police-crack-down-on-downtown-jaywalkers) by the police. Most people were warned but some were ticketed.

[Hans Lauring]

You know, I get it that you think my comments in this thread are stupid. Did it ever occur to you that we just have different viewpoints? I'm a citizen. The police work for me. I do have an opinion, uninformed as it may be, about how they should do their job. I don't agree with punching a teenage girl in the face because she pushed an officer's arm. Fortunately for that officer, I'm not in a position to render any kind of binding judgement. I'm just a guy on the sidelines, commenting.

Mark, you're arguing with a kid who wears a machete to a bar for protection. Being reasonable will get you nowhere.

[Matthew Gallant]

I will say, however, that citing jaywalkers is pretty ineffective in stopping the jaywalkers that absolutely need to be stopped. The fact that they have a very high likelihood of getting hit by a car doesn't stop them, so a ticket won't. From what I've seen, it won't ever completely stop the jaywalkers who just hold up traffic, either.

I don't see any non-Death Race 2000 style solutions to stopping jaywalking. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be cited when it's done, though, or even that there shouldn't be "traps". If you aren't paying enough attention and jaywalk in front of a cop, then you are not alert enough to be jaywalking.

[Lh'owon]

As a committed pedestrian I love that jaywalking doesn't even exist as an offence in the UK. In fact, in a complete reversal, pedestrians have priority when crossing on unmarked roads according to the highway code. I am a supporter of face punching in general though, so this incident leaves me conflicted.

I know right, this entire thread bemuses me. The idea of police confronting you because you walked across a road just seems bizarre, though I am assuming a basic level of intelligence - if you run in front of a car or something and police see no doubt they would have a word.

That said I looked up jaywalking in NZ and apparently I can be fined $35 for crossing within 20 metres of a marked crossing, which I do almost every day :P. I've never heard of anyone being charged though, maybe they'd do it to teach someone who had a near miss a lesson, but even then I doubt it. People need to be less stupid, it's not rocket science crossing when it's clear on a safe bit of road...

[HeavenlyInsane]

if you run in front of a car or something and police see no doubt they would have a word.

The one time my jaywalking almost got me hit by a car, that car was a police car. The driver just gave me an angry look and shooed me away. This was in Sydney.

[Mark Asher]

I will say, however, that citing jaywalkers is pretty ineffective in stopping the jaywalkers that absolutely need to be stopped. The fact that they have a very high likelihood of getting hit by a car doesn't stop them, so a ticket won't. From what I've seen, it won't ever completely stop the jaywalkers who just hold up traffic, either.

I don't see any non-Death Race 2000 style solutions to stopping jaywalking. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be cited when it's done, though, or even that there shouldn't be "traps". If you aren't paying enough attention and jaywalk in front of a cop, then you are not alert enough to be jaywalking.

If it's that bad, maybe they should put some of these ticketing police at busy corners and let them direct traffic during rush hour, including telling pedestrians when to cross.

I've been a pedestrian in a situation like the above, and everyone waits for the officer to wave them across before they cross the street.

[Matthew Gallant]

If it's that bad, maybe they should put some of these ticketing police at busy corners and let them direct traffic during rush hour, including telling pedestrians when to cross.
Too many busy corners, not enough police.

[Enidigm]

The one time my jaywalking almost got me hit by a car, that car was a police car. The driver just gave me an angry look and shooed me away. This was in Sydney.

Yea, but you're an Aussie. You guys eat rocks for dinner and wrestle crocodiles for fun. He probably thought you effeminate because you only managed to bend the radiator.

[BlueJackalope]

Were you downtown?

Yessir.

[BlueJackalope]

Mark, you're arguing with a kid who wears a machete to a bar for protection. Being reasonable will get you nowhere.

What?

[Pogo]

My knife wielding days are more legendary than even I remember.

[John Many Jars]

I must say I'm impressed by her ability to take a punch.

[Blackadar]

Up until the point where the other girl enters the struggle, he's got a hold of the first girl, trying to get her to let herself be put against the car to be handcuffed. He is in control of the situation, and he's restraining himself by trying to turn her without hurting her.


With all due respect, H, I'm not even sure we're watching the same video.

The one I'm watching has the cop holding a girl by the neck ("get the fuck off my neck") when it starts. That girl almost immediately starts to resist arrest because his hands are around her throat and tries to push the police officer away at :14 seconds into the video (then the cop slams her against the cop car). The other girl doesn't engage until :25 seconds (and really not until :29 seconds) into the video and you can clearly see her intent is to free her friend. In fact, the cop steps back at :30 and the girl doesn't continue to engage...and that's when he decides to go all Mike Tyson on her ass.

That's the sequence of events. The dude just lost control of the situation and of himself. He had plenty of time to pull the OC. He chose the wrong escalation.

As I said before, do you really think they're going to use this video in the academy as a textbook technique use of force?

[Anaxagoras]

If it's that bad, maybe they should put some of these ticketing police at busy corners and let them direct traffic during rush hour, including telling pedestrians when to cross.

As a counterpoint to Matt's anecdote, I don't think it's bad at all in downtown Seattle. I go there relatively frequently, and I rarely have problems with the pedestrians. It's the other cars that give me white knuckles, partly because the streets in downtown have a *terrible* design. Stop lights aren't timed with each other so very few cars get to go on each green light... which encourages both gridlock & suicidal drivers.

By the way, Pogo, posting "this is a joke" in flashing letters is kinda the opposite of trolling.

[Pogo]

I thought it was one of those new-fangled meta trolls, where one comments on his own troll as it's occurring. It's the postmodern future of the troll!

[Matthew Gallant]

As a counterpoint to Matt's anecdote, I don't think it's bad at all in downtown Seattle.
It's not bad everywhere, sure. The middle of downtown is surprisingly OK and people obey the lights. People sprinting into the intersection when there's 3 seconds left before the flashing hand goes solid are kind of a bitch when you want to turn, but I haven't seen people just openly going against the lights. It is bad on Denny Way & Elliott Ave down by the sound. I've seen people running through 10mph traffic that was speeding up and forced it to stop.

[TimElhajj]

I must say I'm impressed by her ability to take a punch.

And only 17. Just wait until she grows up!

[Kurdel]

The punch was uncalled for based on the video. The teenage girl wasn't attacking him. She tried to push his arm away from the other girl. The cop lost his cool.

The teens were out of line too, but that officer needs to handle those kinds of situations better. I think we hold our police to a higher standard.

You never, ever, do that. By interfering with an officer like that you certainly waver your right to not get punched in the face. What good will pushing an adrenaline pumped man surrounded by people seeing him struggle with a 17 year old brat?

No one is this situation looks good, and he probably shouldn't have punched her. But hindsight is 20/20, right?

[Marcus]

Oh yeah I'd like to point out that OC does not have an immediate effect and most of the time it doesn't work like it should and you'd be crazy to use it in a fight such as that because there is a huge risk of back spray which could screw you up.

[kerzain]

I'm glad I'm not a cop.

[Mark Asher]

You never, ever, do that. By interfering with an officer like that you certainly waver your right to not get punched in the face. What good will pushing an adrenaline pumped man surrounded by people seeing him struggle with a 17 year old brat?

No one is this situation looks good, and he probably shouldn't have punched her. But hindsight is 20/20, right?

Believe me, I'm not condoning the girl's actions. I think we all agree that shoving a cop, yelling at a cop, resisting arrest, etc., is a very bad idea and opens the gates to other bad things happening. I've been ticketed before and I'm always polite. I've had the police yell at me when I was young and dumb. I've never argued back.

I do think, however, that the officer had other options. And I think the police need to really try to keep their cool and that physical force is something they need to be very reluctant to use, especially when it's about teens being angry about getting ticketed for jaywalking. I've got a daughter just a few years older than the girl in that video, and my daughter is very loyal and would defend her friends. She's also 5'11" so she's not a tiny little thing. If I saw an officer rear back and punch her in the face like that, I'd be out for blood.

And when the argument is made about needing to ensure that people have respect for the law, in terms of enforcing jaywalking ordinances, it really makes me wonder just what kind of respect that inculcates? It might engender a respect for the power of the law, but also create a complete disrespect for the motives of the authority enforcing the law. The police need to be smarter than this, and fortunately, most of them are I think.

[Matthew Gallant]

my daughter is very loyal and would defend her friends.
Really? You taught your daughter to shove cops who try to give her friends tickets? I mean, as long as she thinks it's totally not fair?

[Mark Asher]

Really? You taught your daughter to shove cops who try to give her friends tickets? I mean, as long as she thinks it's totally not fair?

Do you really think I taught her that, Matt? To shove a police officer if she thought the officer was being unfair?

I'm telling you about her character. She stands up for friends, and if she judged (or misjudged) a situation with police, she might very well be vociferous in her defense of a friend. Would she shove an officer? I don't know. I do think she would come to the aid of her friend, though.

How are you raising your daughter? Are you giving her instructions about how to behave in front of the police? I wish I could give you some tips, but I've never had that conversation with my daughter. I trust her good sense.

[Staff Sergeant]

Instructions to children: Police are gods that walk among us. Fucking with police will place you in physical and legal danger. Do what police say (within the law), and never touch a police officer. Is that really hard? When I was 17 my reaction to police was binary and situationally dependent: either run like hell or stand still and do what they tell you.

EDIT: Scratch that, that is still my reaction to police.

[Mark Asher]

Instructions to children: Police are gods that walk among us. Fucking with police will place you in physical and legal danger. Do what police say (within the law), and never touch a police officer. Is that really hard? When I was 17 my reaction to police was binary and situationally dependent: either run like hell or stand still and do what they tell you.

And did your parents have to spell that out for you? Mine never did. Most of us have a basic respect for authority we absorb as we grow up.

It's also healthy to have some disrespect for authority that allows you to question it.

[squirrel]

When I was 17 my reaction to police was binary and situationally dependent: either run like hell or stand still and do what they tell you.


Yeah that was how I was too.

If you don't agree with a cop, take their badge number and file a complaint. But never, ever, put your hands on a cop, especially in an aggressive situation. You *will* get thumped.

[Matthew Gallant]

I would hope my daughter's disrespect for authority would be centered on something a little less petty and a little more righteous. I'm not sure there's ever going to be a Gandhi of jaywalking.

[Jason McCullough]

Yessir.

My anecdata holds up! :)


Really? You taught your daughter to shove cops who try to give her friends tickets? I mean, as long as she thinks it's totally not fair?

Unlike police, your average teenager doesn't have years of professional training in keeping their cool, deescalation and use of force. The general public not going to fuck with police officers, but there are situations where their emotions get the best of them. Like, say, this case.

Personally I'm amazed about how physical it gets before the second girl even gets involved. It'll be interesting to see what was going on there in the report.

By the way, the local talk conservative radio station has been hilarious about their desperate attempts to defend the police:
Yesterday: OMG, if you zoom in enough the guy in the video pulls a gun!
Today: OMG, the video taper asked for $1000 and actually got ~$50 for their video from KOMO. The whole thing was a setup to make money!

[Mark Asher]

I would hope my daughter's disrespect for authority would be centered on something a little less petty and a little more righteous. I'm not sure there's ever going to be a Gandhi of jaywalking.

Sure. But if a friend is getting manhandled and threatened with arrest by the police for crossing a street illegally, would you be surprised if she was upset by that? That's was this is. I don't think most of us parents could predict how our children would react to that. I think it's ok to at least question that when it happens. It's not something that warrants invoking the name of Ghandi.

[Houngan]

With all due respect, H, I'm not even sure we're watching the same video.

The one I'm watching has the cop holding a girl by the neck ("get the fuck off my neck") when it starts. That girl almost immediately starts to resist arrest because his hands are around her throat and tries to push the police officer away at :14 seconds into the video (then the cop slams her against the cop car). The other girl doesn't engage until :25 seconds (and really not until :29 seconds) into the video and you can clearly see her intent is to free her friend. In fact, the cop steps back at :30 and the girl doesn't continue to engage...and that's when he decides to go all Mike Tyson on her ass.

That's the sequence of events. The dude just lost control of the situation and of himself. He had plenty of time to pull the OC. He chose the wrong escalation.

As I said before, do you really think they're going to use this video in the academy as a textbook technique use of force?

I watched it again, and I'm torn. The initial girl is actually fighting him, that's worse than i thought from my first viewing.. the punch girl actually shoved him, which is also worse, but he does advance on her while punching, so that's a strike against him.

I'm punting. I'm watching it at work without sound and on my phone screen, I'll shut up until I get my main computer back up.

[Matthew Gallant]

Sure. But if a friend is getting manhandled and threatened with arrest by the police for crossing a street illegally
Nobody gets arrested for jaywalking. The reason that teenager was being manhandled was because she was combative. Over a jaywalking ticket. Think about it.

[The Bitter Cynic]

What makes me chuckle is this all because of crossing a street.

[Chris WPG]

Two, he's lucky he didn't get jumped. In some of my old neighborhoods, we'd have killed that motherfucker on the spot.

Oh yeah, you've got a great sense of perspective on policing issues.

[Dan Lawrence]

I've been chuckling about this 'Jaywalking' since last night, and reading up on it this morning. So apparently it came into being as an offence under pressure from car manufacturers who wanted to promote the supremacy of the car and yet somehow you still tolerate it in the land of the free today?

There doesn't seem to be any proven affect on road safety either so it appears to be a law designed only to make car owners feel ownership of the roads over the commonrs who don't have cars. To my ears it seems utterly ridiculous and I hope Americans recall it the next time they want to have a go at the UK for having too many CCTV cameras.

This BBC guide to jaywalking from a few years back is a good laugh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6251431.stm


I'd like to know how well respected and widespread this law is. I cross about five roads of varying sizes each day on the way too and from work only one of which has a pedestrian crossing. If a driver tried to get angry with me down here for crossing the road I'd flip him the bird and so would most people. Do people really pay attention to it in small towns? How big does a street have to be that I would be forbidden from crossing it whenever I liked? if there are no cars in immediate danger of running a pedestrian down why does anyone care if I cross the road?

When I lived in a village the pub was on one side of a major A road and my house was on another and obviously I'd regular cross from one to the other without a second thought, to get to a pedestrian crossing I'd have had to walk about 8 miles there and 8 miles back in either direction. Surely that wouldn't be classed as jaywalking except by a mad overbearing state intent on dictating the movements of its citizens ;)

[leerwandler]

Police State.

And the majority of the QT3 people obviously love living in one.

[Hans Lauring]

I've been chuckling about this 'Jaywalking' since last night, and reading up on it this morning. So apparently it came into being as an offence under pressure from car manufacturers who wanted to promote the supremacy of the car and yet somehow you still tolerate it in the land of the free today?

There doesn't seem to be any proven affect on road safety either so it appears to be a law designed only to make car owners feel ownership of the roads over the commonrs who don't have cars. To my ears it seems utterly ridiculous and I hope Americans recall it the next time they want to have a go at the UK for having too many CCTV cameras.

This BBC guide to jaywalking from a few years back is a good laugh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6251431.stm


I'd like to know how well respected and widespread this law is. I cross about five roads of varying sizes each day on the way too and from work only one of which has a pedestrian crossing. If a driver tried to get angry with me down here for crossing the road I'd flip him the bird and so would most people. Do people really pay attention to it in small towns? How big does a street have to be that I would be forbidden from crossing it whenever I liked? if there are no cars in immediate danger of running a pedestrian down why does anyone care if I cross the road?

When I lived in a village the pub was on one side of a major A road and my house was on another and obviously I'd regular cross from one to the other without a second thought, to get to a pedestrian crossing I'd have had to walk about 8 miles there and 8 miles back in either direction. Surely that wouldn't be classed as jaywalking except by a mad overbearing state intent on dictating the movements of its citizens ;)

Thank you.
Beneath the issue of the cops behavior (where I agree with everything Mark said) I was wondering about jaywalking. Whether it was one of those words hard to translate - but it turns out it's not the word, but the entire concept that's foreign.

And I'll save the link for the next time Spoofy or anybody else posts one of those nanny state screeds.

[Chris WPG]

Police State.

And the majority of the QT3 people obviously love living in one.

I agree that me not being able to shove cops is due to my living in a police state.(?)

[Hans Lauring]

I agree that me not being able to shove cops is due to my living in a police state.(?)

Interesting 8oft repeated) strawman.
I don't think anybody is arguing that shoving our even shouting at the police should carry no consequences. Heck in my quiet corner of the world where jaywalking doesn't exist as an offence (but being a danger to traffic will get you fined) calling a police officer a rude name would land you a fine.

Just not a punch in the face.

[bago]

I agree that me not being able to shove cops is due to my living in a police state.(?)

And I'll agree that decking a cranky teenager while being recorded by multiple cameras over a case of jaywalking is A FUCKING EPICALLY STUPID THING TO DO.

As in anyone that EPICALLY FUCKING STUPID has no place in a peace enforcement agency.

I expect my law enforcement professionals to be, your know, well, professional. If a teenage perp gets physical, you might need to arrest them. However a professional policeman arrests them in the most peaceful manner possible, with overwhelming force. I've had a duskier hued friend of mine arrested by the SPD before. (he missed a court date and was helping me clean out my car in an alley) They calmly and professionally spoke to us, asked for ID, did warrant checks, positioned themselves appropriately, grabbed his hands and cuffed him. No violence, no drama, just professional execution.

This is about as far from professional as you can get. Instead of waiting for backup he tries to single handedly arrest a teenage while surrounded by sympathetic onlookers. Instead of smoothly overwhelming her, he gets beat on by a teenage girl. When running into trouble, instead of explaining the situation, he just turns around and decks her. Instead of noticing that he is being filmed 5 ways from sunday in the age of youtube, that this might not reflect proudly on the SPD, he flat out decks her. The girl in the purple shirt has the decency to wait around to let the police sort this out, unlike the police officer.

This officer displayed conduct that was short-tempered, self-defeating, and entirely unprofessional. I expect that from jaywalking teenagers, but not from armed professionals enforcing the law on my behalf. His behavior was stupid, disgraceful, and entirely unbecoming an officer of the law. This incident should be held up as an example of complete, utter, and abject failure of police behavior and training.

In short, youtube and retweet this jackasses name into mud.

I want a VH1 special in 5 years where he apologizes for his idiocy, and sets up a foundation to weed out this sort of behavior in the future. I want social stigmatization.

The last thing we need is jackholes like this on the wrong side of the thin blue line.

[Matthew Gallant]

if there are no cars in immediate danger of running a pedestrian down why does anyone care if I cross the road?
The jaywalking laws in Seattle are supposed to be for just that. There are streets that are very busy with both cars and pedestrians and having it be a free-for-all just wouldn't work. The average Seattle jaywalking scenario isn't a cop hiding behind a bush on an empty one-way side road waiting for someone to cross outside the crosswalk. We've got four-lane two way streets, four-lane one way streets all with bends and enough elevation differences to obstruct your view of the road ahead. Look at this mess:

http://www.truemeaningoflife.com/images/seattleintersection.jpg

Do you not see several ways where jaywalking could snarl traffic or cause an accident? As I said, enforcement isn't very effective unless it is overly draconian-- but jaywalking shouldn't be legalized.

[Dan Lawrence]

We have intersections like that here in the UK too and somehow we manage. Must be through that using that conservative ideal of personal responsibility that see's us through somehow. If it was just about safety why not have an offence that covers recklessly endagering lives while crossing rather than simply banning all unauthorised crossings? I think that over here pedestrians are considered equal to, if not more important than cars but this is seemingly not the case over in the US :)

I'm still curious to know the extent of jaywalking laws in the US, do they apply in the countryside even?

[Raife]

It's because cars pay taxes.

[Matthew Gallant]

Well, the one thing that immediately strikes me about Coventry looking at satellite photos is that there are a varying amount of cars on the roads downtown, and that variance ranges from "barely any" to "none". The roads are mostly two lane affairs with none wider than three lanes it appears. That may have some effect on your perspective.

[Dan Lawrence]

Well, the one thing that immediately strikes me about Coventry looking at satellite photos is that there are a varying amount of cars on the roads downtown, and that variance ranges from "barely any" to "none". The roads are mostly two lane affairs with none wider than three lanes it appears. That may have some effect on your perspective.

Stunningly enough car density varies throughout the day as the roads here can get very busy around 5pm, and Coventry is not even close to being one of the UK's busiest set of roads. Its often said that we, in the UK, have the busiest road network in Europe which is just as you'd expect with our level of car ownership and population density. The overall car density in the UK is highly unlikely to have anything to do with it.

There is actually a four to six lane mash up of road madness right near my house, it's bad enough that my mum is too scared to visit because of it but nothing like the extremeties you get elsewhere. Coventry is not exactly the road capital of the UK so why not pick London or Birmingham instead if you want to see some much more loony road layouts where we can still jaywalk around with impunity :)

Though, this is some what of a side track as from what I understand the law on Jaywalking applies almost everywhere in the US in smaller cities as well as bigger ones like Seattle and its not just on the worst/widest road junctions? I admit I'm not clear on that point and somewhat doubting because it would seem somewhat ludicrous to forbid people from crossing to the other side of country lanes at unmarked junctions. Apologies if I upset you by chuckling at what seems to me like quaint American laws :)

[Skipper]

I'm glad this didn't happen in the South, we'd be on page 22 with at least six posted diatribes of how the cop was a racist hick, the South is the root of all racism, and will always be racist with no hope of every changing. But that's just me being silly, it's obviously not the case here.

I'm not a cop but I don't understand how this cop let this get so far out of whack. To be honest, I would probably have lost it long before he did though. Either that, or I would have said, "fuck this" and gone about not ticketing or bothering them for a jaywalking ticket. You guys take jaywalking mighty serious up there.

[Matthew Gallant]

If this happened in the south, those kids would still be getting tasered and clubbed by four or more troopers. It would be like the BP spill except with pain. A sock in the mouth isn't racist.

[leerwandler]

I also find it highly....disturbing and somewhat....I don't know....I have no words for my feelings here....seeing a MALE, cop or not, maltreating and punching a GIRL in the face.

I really have no words...

Is this normal behaviour in Seattle?

Such a nice place...at least it was...in Zak McKracken.

[leerwandler]

It would be like the BP spill except with pain.

Wonderful.

[ReptileHouse]

Registered over a year ago, and your first three posts are to troll a thread in P&R? Whose sockpuppet are you?

[leerwandler]

Troll?

So you think it is ok for a man to punch a girl in the face?

[Pogo]

So you think it is ok for a man to punch a girl in the face?

Way to throw out an irrelevant question, buddy. Are you saying a woman can't fight like a man? Are woman not capable of assaulting just as effectively as a man? Are woman not capable of being stronger than a man?

So it depends, how liberal are you? Are we giving we giving a particular leeway to people with different sexual organs to assault a cop? Should someone defending themselves not hit a hermaphrodite? How about a transgendered man/woman? How about a woman in the army?

[Kebooo]

Would you be ok with it if he had punched a guy in the face? Or if she had assaulted him with a knife? I understand the gut reaction to a man hitting a woman, but I don't like the idea that it would be ok for a cop to punch a man, and not a woman, as if there's some moral justification for one and not the other. It should be both or neither. You can say "but the man can defend himself better". Against a cop? Are you really going to fist fight a cop with a gun if he hits you? Really?

[YouWho]

To my ears it seems utterly ridiculous
Of course it does. You guys put the steering wheel on top of your glove compartment so that your passengers can drive! I'm sure all the rabbits in Wonderland marvel at the watch-less bunnies over here too.
:)

[Skipper]

If this happened in the south, those kids would still be getting tasered and clubbed by four or more troopers. It would be like the BP spill except with pain. A sock in the mouth isn't racist.

I agree here Matt, I was just teasing you and the other folks from Seattle. Touche, senor. Being honest though, I think that cop was screwed no matter what he did there. I don't know if punching her was right, I'm not a cop and don't know the rules of escalation and force.

[Jason McCullough]

More elaboration on that ACLU thing I posted earlier: the auditors (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012136804_coppunch17m.html) weigh in.


Auditors who oversee complaints against Seattle police officers have repeatedly expressed concerns about jaywalking stops and minor street confrontations that escalate into physical altercations, and they say better training is needed.

At least four auditor reports since 2004 — the most recent last year — have flagged the issue, which is receiving renewed attention in the wake of Monday's videotaped jaywalking stop in which an officer punched a 17-year-old girl after she shoved him.


"It is just awful it is again a jaywalking incident," said Kate Pflaumer, who served as civilian auditor in the Seattle Police Department's Office of Professional Accountability from 2003 to 2009. "It's very distressing."
Pflaumer, in an interview Wednesday, declined to address Monday's incident but said the department hasn't done enough de-escalation training to teach officers how to deal with jaywalkers who ignore them, challenge their authority and get upset because they don't think they have committed an important infraction.


"It's a difficult crux for officers, and I think it takes a lot of training," said Pflaumer, a former U.S. attorney in Seattle.

[Matthew Gallant]

I'm not sure how you de-escalate with the sort of asshole who thinks there's nothing wrong with walking out across a busy city street in front of cars. The officer in the video is actually very calm and is not doing anything to incite the girls other than not allowing them to go free. He doesn't yell when they yell, he isn't agitated visibly.

Some additional info on this incident: it took place almost directly underneath a pedestrian overpass. I didn't notice when I watched the video the first time for obvious reasons, but you can in fact see it right in the beginning of the video. According to the internet, it was put in place for safety and traffic reasons.

Of course, you can't expect pedestrians to climb stairs or wait for lights, because that inconveniences them. Just like how we all drive through the red lights when there's nobody coming the other way, right? No reason not to.

[TimElhajj]

The officer in the video is actually very calm and is not doing anything to incite the girls other than not allowing them to go free. He doesn't yell when they yell, he isn't agitated visibly.

Except for the officer punching the girl in the face, I'd agree!


I'm not sure how you de-escalate with the sort of asshole who thinks there's nothing wrong with walking out across a busy city street in front of cars.

Apparently the officer didn't know how to de-escalate either.

[Kurdel]

Troll?

So you think it is ok for a man to punch a girl in the face?

Why not? People are people. I would be no less inclined to punch a man or a woman. Also, I never have to punch anyone, ever. But vagina or no vagina, if it comes to punching, then shit is already messed up.

Same goes for people with glasses, paraplegic and mentally disabled.

[John Many Jars]

It don't have to be a dude --- shit, I'll dick-punch a chick
Cause I don't discriminate when I punch 'em in the dick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WUcKgOav0c)

[Kurdel]

It don't have to be a dude --- shit, I'll dick-punch a chick
Cause I don't discriminate when I punch 'em in the dick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WUcKgOav0c)

Oh shit, you know Juicy Karkass :O !!



How come by just reading those lyrics, I knew instantly that it was some kind of Rage rap?

[Matthew Gallant]

Except for the officer punching the girl in the face, I'd agree!
Yeah, but she grabbed at his arm down by his belt. That's pretty aggressive behavior. And you'll notice that even after that, when the non-punched girl got on his back, he didn't pop her one too.

[TimElhajj]

Yeah, but she grabbed at his arm down by his belt. That's pretty aggressive behavior. And you'll notice that even after that, when the non-punched girl got on his back, he didn't pop her one too.

Matt, do you believe this is a text book case for how the police should use force? How they should maintain order?

[Marcus]

I dunno but you seem pretty sure that it isn't. You know there is always a grey area.

[TimElhajj]

You know there is always a grey area.

I agree. But when you get multiple reports of police officers getting caught up in the same sort of nonsense over and over--especially on a low stake issue like jaywalking--the picture gets a little less grey, a little more focused.

[Flowers]

I think they shouldn't have sent him to the corner to deal with teenagers by himself. But they did, and he upheld the law, and a girl refused to comply with his lawful command, so he attempted to place her under arrest for obstruction, and another individual interfered using physical force and he terminated that interference with a reasonable amount of force. Less than a taser, less than pepper spray, less than a nightstick, less than a drawn firearm. Just one strike and her felonious assault on a police officer was terminated.

If it was two men, you wouldn't have this problem. Stop being sexist and recognize that females have the ability to injure officers. He shouldn't have to go home scraped up or get a fingernail in the eye over that. Also, he could have wrenched on the first girl's wrist and broken or sprained it in order to get her to let him put the cuffs on, and he didn't.

[Matthew Gallant]

Matt, do you believe this is a text book case for how the police should use force? How they should maintain order?
Not per se, but "grab a cop's arm, get one punch to the face" doesn't sound like the police brutality you are making it out to be.

[Flowers]

I agree. But when you get multiple reports of police officers getting caught up in the same sort of nonsense over and over--especially on a low stake issue like jaywalking--the picture gets a little less grey, a little more focused.

Not really, minor tickets turn into resisting/obstructing all the time. Fake names, knowing there is a warrant out for you, being too drunk, these things happen. It's part of the community policing model of crime control. Rudy Giuliani did it with public urination, and it worked. You just have cops present, they enforce minor laws, use them as an opportunity to enforce major ones, check for warrants, etc. Eventually, you have a nice area where people follow the rules even when they don't see a cop.

[Chris WPG]

Interesting 8oft repeated) strawman.
I don't think anybody is arguing that shoving our even shouting at the police should carry no consequences. Heck in my quiet corner of the world where jaywalking doesn't exist as an offence (but being a danger to traffic will get you fined) calling a police officer a rude name would land you a fine.

Just not a punch in the face.

How are "calling a police officer a rude name" and "laying your hands on an officer" (even if they're up to something you don't like) equivalent in your argument here?

[Chris WPG]

And I'll agree that decking a cranky teenager while being recorded by multiple cameras over a case of jaywalking is A FUCKING EPICALLY STUPID THING TO DO.


The fact that it *began* as a jaywalking incident has nothing to do with what ultimately happened.



However a professional policeman arrests them in the most peaceful manner possible, with overwhelming force. I've had a duskier hued friend of mine arrested by the SPD before. (he missed a court date and was helping me clean out my car in an alley) They calmly and professionally spoke to us, asked for ID, did warrant checks, positioned themselves appropriately, grabbed his hands and cuffed him. No violence, no drama, just professional execution.

Did you friend start screaming at the officer? Did you start laying your hands on the officer? Well, I can see how your example applies very well to the situation on the video.



This is about as far from professional as you can get. Instead of waiting for backup he tries to single handedly arrest a teenage while surrounded by sympathetic onlookers. Instead of smoothly overwhelming her, he gets beat on by a teenage girl. When running into trouble, instead of explaining the situation, he just turns around and decks her. Instead of noticing that he is being filmed 5 ways from sunday in the age of youtube, that this might not reflect proudly on the SPD, he flat out decks her. The girl in the purple shirt has the decency to wait around to let the police sort this out, unlike the police officer.


So your advice to this guy is to ride the girl he's trying to arrest to the ground, leaving himself vulnerable to the crowd that's already shown it's ready to take a crack at him? Leaving yourself on the ground and vulnerable is in no way a safe and professional thing to do. Did you notice that the pink-shirted girl only stopped fighting him when another dude dragged her away?

But I guess she's a girl, and thus no danger to anyone?

[Anaxagoras]

How are "calling a police officer a rude name" and "laying your hands on an officer" (even if they're up to something you don't like) equivalent in your argument here?

You tell 'em, Chris! Thank God somebody has the balls to stand up to Big Dane & call him out when he makes a vague association between two different things.

Fuckin' Scandinavians. They're all the same.

[Marcus]

People are more likely to try and fight the police when there is only one of them. Thats just how it is.

I'm guessing Seattle PD almost always run coppers by them selves and thats just how they do things.

[TimElhajj]

Not per se, but "grab a cop's arm, get one punch to the face" doesn't sound like the police brutality you are making it out to be.

I never said anything about brutality. I think I made it clear in my initial post that I feel bad for the guy. He is in a world of shit: surrounded by heckling teenagers, video cameras all rolling, in a battle of wills with two beefy delinquent teenage girls. I think the operative word he is more like stupidity.

[TimElhajj]

Rudy Giuliani did it with public urination, and it worked. You just have cops present, they enforce minor laws, use them as an opportunity to enforce major ones, check for warrants, etc. Eventually, you have a nice area where people follow the rules even when they don't see a cop.

The people who are actually studying Seattle policy cite a lack of police training and an abundance of low level jaywalking tickets that escalate into big deal police assaults. If we're really worried about police officers getting a poke in the eye or a scratch to the face, perhaps we ought to give them some training about how to handle this situation.

If it were public urination, I doubt you'd see people so indignant about the ticket. Cop gives you a ticket for peeing, you hang your head. Unlike jaywalking, peeing in the street is nasty all over the world. I'm willing to wager even the British have laws about peeing in the public gutters.

[Hans Lauring]

How are "calling a police officer a rude name" and "laying your hands on an officer" (even if they're up to something you don't like) equivalent in your argument here?

That's easy. I never said they were.

I was just pointing out that nobody here is saying that you can do what you feel like to an officer (even in commie pinko Europe), so there's no need to constantly knock down that strawman.

People are arguing how serious the "assault"of the policeman is and how appropriate his response was.

[Hans Lauring]

The people who are actually studying Seattle policy cite a lack of police training and an abundance of low level jaywalking tickets that escalate into big deal police assaults. If we're really worried about police officers getting a poke in the eye or a scratch to the face, perhaps we ought to give them some training about how to handle this situation.

If it were public urination, I doubt you'd see people so indignant about the ticket. Cop gives you a ticket for peeing, you hang your head. Unlike jaywalking, peeing in the street is nasty all over the world. I'm willing to wager even the British have laws about peeing in the public gutters.

Yup. You hang your head, they fine you, you pay. No facepunching is involved.

[Jason McCullough]

Rudy Giuliani did it with public urination, and it worked. You just have cops present, they enforce minor laws, use them as an opportunity to enforce major ones, check for warrants, etc. Eventually, you have a nice area where people follow the rules even when they don't see a cop.

There's not a lot of evidence the broken windows approach to crime control actually works. Crime started dropping at roughly the same clip in all major cities nationwide before anyone had ever heard of it. More here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows#Criticism_of_the_theory).

[jeffd]

Not per se, but "grab a cop's arm, get one punch to the face" doesn't sound like the police brutality you are making it out to be.

How many times have you been punched in the face?

Contrary to what the movies and Street Fighter teach us, it ain't nothing. You can so all sorts of awful damage with a punch to the face.

[Murbella]

How many times have you been punched in the face?

Contrary to what the movies and Street Fighter teach us, it ain't nothing. You can so all sorts of awful damage with a punch to the face.
Either she is rocky reborn or he didn't do awful damage with his punch.

[jeffd]

Yeah she got lucky. He stepped into that punch - it could have done some serious damage. It was absolutely an inappropriate response on his part.

[Nathan Phoenix]

Jaywalking is a serious problem in South Lansing. In the course of my driving around for work or to/from work, I've been about a quarter second away from likely killing a pedestrian twice in the last year.

The most recent case involved a group of people who were looking to cross about 100 feet up from a crosswalk, right to left from my perspective. This was on Cedar which is 45 mph in that area. Two of them sprinted across the road, the next had his back to the road (and me). It looked like they were going to wait as there were still three of them talking and the one with his back to me turned and started to run out into the street literally right in front of me, I had to swerve, and was lucky no one was in the lane beside me. I had practically no time to slow down due to the abruptness of the pedestrian's maneuver. Scared the crap out of me.

I see stuff like this all the time though, despite abundant crosswalks or pedestrian overpasses.

East Lansing tends to be worse, despite more crosswalks, due to many michigan state university students having no sense of self preservation. Fortunately the speed limits around the school are 25mph as local officials have realized how utterly moronic a lot of the students can be.

[Tim James]

The people who are actually studying Seattle policy cite a lack of police training and an abundance of low level jaywalking tickets that escalate into big deal police assaults. If we're really worried about police officers getting a poke in the eye or a scratch to the face, perhaps we ought to give them some training about how to handle this situation.Don't let them trick you into the training racket. Law enforcement fucks up, and they all get a free weeklong vacation to a use of force seminar in a sunny state halfway across the nation.

You could fire them. Well, not that you can, but it would learn 'em right quick for free.

Also, this needs to be made into a Falcon Punch gif.

[TimElhajj]

Yup. You hang your head, they fine you, you pay.

You got one too, huh? :)

[Timemaster Tim]

Unlike jaywalking, peeing in the street is nasty all over the world.

Would you be surprised that Japan (http://www.daninjapan.com/learn/nexpect.html) is an exception (http://forum.gaijinpot.com/showthread.php?39337-Japanese-Women-and-Public-Urination...&)?

[TimElhajj]

Would you be surprised that Japan (http://www.daninjapan.com/learn/nexpect.html) is an exception (http://forum.gaijinpot.com/showthread.php?39337-Japanese-Women-and-Public-Urination...&)?

"I've been to Tokyo. They sell little-girl underwear in the vending machines right on the main drag, the Ginza, or whatever. Guys in suits buying used girl panties. How is that okay? That's not okay."

[Timemaster Tim]

"I've been to Tokyo. They sell little-girl underwear in the vending machines right on the main drag, the Ginza, or whatever. Guys in suits buying used girl panties. How is that okay? That's not okay."

It's not okay to you, but it clearly is okay to a large enough portion of the Japanese population. Just like we frown on public urination, and they don't think twice about doing it.

[TimElhajj]

That's a quote from a movie where the main character is somewhat depraved, but doesn't see himself that way, even as he retains the ability to point out the moral weakness in others.

[Timemaster Tim]

That's a quote from a movie where the main character is somewhat depraved, but doesn't see himself that way, even as he retains the ability to point out the moral weakness in others.

Ah... Missed the quote marks. Which movie? I'm too lazy to google right now.

[SpoofyChop]

Ah... Missed the quote marks. Which movie? I'm too lazy to google right now.

"Tim Elhajj Takes Toyko." A little known classic of the genre. ;)

[Matthew Gallant]

The punched girl apologized. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012154988_apwapolicepunch.html)

[TimElhajj]

Ah... Missed the quote marks. Which movie? I'm too lazy to google right now.

The Informant! with Matt Damon. Good movie.

[TimElhajj]

The punched girl apologized. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012154988_apwapolicepunch.html)

Another movie quote: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

But seriously, I am glad she apologized. I'm willing to bet it was orchestrated to help out the officer, which he totally deserves.

[TimElhajj]

"Tim Elhajj Takes Toyko."

Nice alliteration! Speaks well for Tims everywhere.

[ckessel]

From the article: Prosecutor Dan Satterberg says, "the law is clear, you can't shove a police officer, period."

Yep, Cops: the untouchable people, whether they're in the wrong or not. They could be beating the shit out of your mom for having a bad hair day, but you can't touch them "period". They can punch you, whack you with sticks, and taser the crap out of you, but you can't touch em. Hell, they typically get a paid vacation when this stuff happens while there's an "investigation".

As a whole, I despise cops. I really do.

[Pogo]

You know that law is beneficial to society 99% of the time, right? And you're flipping the fuck out, like morons do, over the 1%?

[Raife]

But seriously, I am glad she apologized. I'm willing to bet it was orchestrated to help out the officer, which he totally deserves.

I'm willing to bet it was orchestrated to help herself since she is facing an assault charge.

[ckessel]

You know that law is beneficial to society 99% of the time, right? And you're flipping the fuck out, like morons do, over the 1%?

Well, I've felt this way pretty much my whole adult life (>20 years), so I suppose if I'm flipping out, it's been a long flip out. I've never seen any of that 99% in person or even anecdotally from a friend, but I've seen a decent amount of the 1%. Of course, the 99% largely goes unseen.

Of the officers I've met, every one was a total stuck up, power obsessed ass. Except one, a martial arts instructor I had, very kind guy, very non-confrontation, who committed suicide because he hated his job and coworkers so much.

Edit: and there's basically zero evidence showing the jaywalking law benefits anyone at all.

Edit, edit: the one time I've seen a cop testify in court, he completely fucking lied through his teeth (I was the only other witness...so of course the Cop's testimony wins because clearly Cops are superior to us peons).

More Cops doing stellar work: Newlywed couple: Officer blocked us from ER during bride's stroke (http://www.wrcbtv.com/global/story.asp?s=12673455). Husband is under felony charges basically for trying to save his wife's life.

[Pogo]

That's usually the case. "Cops doing good stuff" on YouTube doesn't usually get millions of hits or blog coverage. Same thing with word-of-mouth, really.

[Jon Rowe]

Gonna have to side with the cop on this one. He clearly was being shoved around by a woman. He had to jack her to save face.

[TimElhajj]

I'm willing to bet it was orchestrated to help herself since she is facing an assault charge.

I'm sure she did benefit, but he needed the good PR worse then she needed to apologize. After all, she's a teenager that got hit in the face by a burly cop who was involved in something stupid.

[Joe M.]

Frankly, if he wasn't pussyfooting around in an attempt not to injure the first girl I don't think he would have been in that situation. Of course, if he had thrown her down and cuffed her, that too would be on youtube and we'd have the same people wringing their hands over it.

Personally, I blame the parents. Haven't these stupid fucking kids been told you do not put your hands on a police officer? She's lucky the guy is a pansy and only punched her instead of drawing down or clubbing her over the head with his nightstick. Disrespectful little fucks deserve what they got.

[nlanza]

Personally, I blame the parents. Haven't these stupid fucking kids been told you do not put your hands on a police officer? She's lucky the guy is a pansy and only punched her instead of drawing down or clubbing her over the head with his nightstick. Disrespectful little fucks deserve what they got.

Classy. You must be a joy at parties.

[Anaxagoras]

Classy. You must be a joy at parties.

He's the guy in the corner who's leaning at 15 degrees, red-faced, talking 2 levels too loud about "Fucking kids these days" to nobody in particular.

[Murbella]

If the first girl's parents had done their job, the cops wouldn't have to do it instead.

[Jon Rowe]

I don't have any sympathy for people that fuck around with police like that. C'mon, they are just trying to do their jobs. Why would you ever lay hands on a cop? He could have easily tased them, or done worse. What did they expect to happen? The cop was going to back down?

(Then again, I don't know the situation, the cop might have been fucking around with them in the first place, that would make this a bit more grey)

[TimElhajj]

http://static.open.salon.com/files/birmingham_campaign_dogs1232398947.jpg

[Lh'owon]

He's jaywalking too!

[Jon Rowe]

http://static.open.salon.com/files/birmingham_campaign_dogs1232398947.jpg

G-G-G-G-G-G-Godwin'd!!!

[TimElhajj]

G-G-G-G-G-G-Godwin'd!!!

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Pictures/merc11.png

[Matthew Gallant]

Es war ein harter heutige Nacht

starring the Nazi Beatles

[strummer]

Es war ein harter heutige Nacht

starring the Nazi Beatles

acht Arme um dich töten

[Murbella]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7755/spockasnazi.jpg

[Kael]

I'm on the cops side in this. The sensationalistic "cop punches girl for jaywalking" isn't what happened here anymore than "cannibals consume flesh of deity" is an adequate description of what happens during catholic communion. Creates an exciting headline, but thats it.

I am surprised at how ineffective this cop is at handcuffing a teenage girl. He's got to have at least 80 pounds on her. Put her on the ground and put the cuffs on her, if you really want it done it can be done in 15 seconds. Why have a wrestling match in front of a crowd?

But I agree, jumping in as an outsider to try to help your friend against a cop is dangerous. Mostly to the cop himself. He has to end that immediately and he can't do that by going to sit in his car and wait for reinforcements.

Its a bad situation. Its a bad situation because of the girls involved. The cop could have been much much better at holding and cuffing the first girl, but in the moment that the 2nd girl got involved he had to end it immediately, a punch in the face for trying to help your friend get away from a cop isn't to severe.

[Mark Asher]

If the first girl's parents had done their job, the cops wouldn't have to do it instead.

The job of the parent is to punch the kid in the face?

I guarantee you that any parent seen hauling off and punching a teenage child in the face is going to be investigated by Family Services.

[Tortilla]

The job of the parent is to punch the kid in the face?


Any parent who hasn't taught their children enough about proper respect for police or just general self control to prevent their child from trying to start an altercation with a police office has made a parenting mistake somewhere along the line.

[Jason McCullough]

It's a mystery why these things keep happening to racial minorities. Terrible parenting in teaching how to deal with cops, I guess!

[Brian Seiler]

Playing the race card in a situation where it probably doesn't have much to do with anything only reduces its value.

[Mark Asher]

Any parent who hasn't taught their children enough about proper respect for police or just general self control to prevent their child from trying to start an altercation with a police office has made a parenting mistake somewhere along the line.

I really doubt you have any idea about how this child was raised. You're extrapolating a lot from one incident. Teenagers often do dumb things that go against what their parents have taught them, especially when they are in a group of teenagers. Didn't you ever do anything as a teenager that you knew you weren't supposed to do? Drink a beer? Smoke a joint? Does that mean you were raised wrong?

[Kael]

I really doubt you have any idea about how this child was raised. You're extrapolating a lot from one incident. Teenagers often do dumb things that go against what their parents have taught them, especially when they are in a group of teenagers. Didn't you ever do anything as a teenager that you knew you weren't supposed to do? Drink a beer? Smoke a joint? Does that mean you were raised wrong?

Well said Mark.

[TimElhajj]

Playing the race card in a situation where it probably doesn't have much to do with anything only reduces its value.

If this were true, wouldn't it be worthless by now? Part of why the officer's actions were so stupid is the end result: a photo of a beefy white man in uniform punching a black girl in the head.

[Jason McCullough]

Playing the race card in a situation where it probably doesn't have much to do with anything only reduces its value.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Review the multiple things I linked describing how the Seattle police department has a history of escalating minor incidents, usually against minorities, and the very bad blood between the Seattle minority population and the police department.

[Tortilla]

I really doubt you have any idea about how this child was raised. You're extrapolating a lot from one incident. Teenagers often do dumb things that go against what their parents have taught them, especially when they are in a group of teenagers. Didn't you ever do anything as a teenager that you knew you weren't supposed to do? Drink a beer? Smoke a joint? Does that mean you were raised wrong?

I will agree that teens doing stupid stuff is part and parcel of being a teenager, but any parent of a teen who is involved in a physical altercation with police has still got to feel a little guilty. For the record I got in plenty of legal trouble as a teen. None of it was because the cop didn't like the color of my skin or had a thing for brutality. It was because we were stupid kids doing stupid things.

I had a cop draw a gun on me once and you know what, it was completely justified. One of my idiot friends (a large fellow all in black) just jumped out of the car suddenly during a traffic stop. I'm smart enough to know that people deciding they can so sudden stupid shit is how cops get hurt, so the cops have a right to control the situation for their own protection.

[Mark Asher]

I'm not even sure I've talked to my kids about how to behave in front of an officer. It sort of goes without saying that you need to behave. I don't ever recall a conversation about this topic with my father, either.

I may have told my oldest that if he's ever pulled over while driving, to be polite. I think I did tell him that he's more likely to be pulled over because of his age so he needs to be careful. I told him police are looking for any reason to pull over young drivers. Do I have evidence to back this up? Not really. Just my observation of how things work.

[CJ Martin]

I really doubt you have any idea about how this child was raised. You're extrapolating a lot from one incident. Teenagers often do dumb things that go against what their parents have taught them, especially when they are in a group of teenagers. Didn't you ever do anything as a teenager that you knew you weren't supposed to do? Drink a beer? Smoke a joint? Does that mean you were raised wrong?

Maybe not just one incident...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0617102punch1.html

[Anti-Bunny]

I'm not even sure I've talked to my kids about how to behave in front of an officer. It sort of goes without saying that you need to behave.
You should and it doesn't... And by behave, I mean shut up and don't say a word.

[Matthew Gallant]

Maybe not just one incident...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0617102punch1.html
Well, now she knows how the 14 year-old boy felt.

[Mark Asher]

You should and it doesn't... And by behave, I mean shut up and don't say a word.

I wouldn't tell my kids they need to shut up. They have a right to speak up if they think they need to.

[TheTrunkDr]

I wouldn't tell my kids they need to shut up. They have a right to speak up if they think they need to.
Yes they do and whatever they say can be used against them. The point is speaking up rarely improves your situation. A police officer isn't there for you to plead your case, that's what the courts are for. If you're in trouble with the law (even if you haven't actually done anything wrong) the best thing is to shut your mouth, take your citation or arrest and deal with it afterwards.

[Murbella]

It's a mystery why these things keep happening to racial minorities. Terrible parenting in teaching how to deal with cops, I guess!
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3826/posterdonttazeme.jpg
When they happen to non minorities everyone makes fun of the stupid kids being stupid.

[Jason McCullough]

Again, read the ACLU and control board report. Doesn't happen to white kids - unless they're downtown.

[Pogo]

Downtown... where the white kids are?

Your linked articles are horseshit and don't imply a pattern of behavior, they cherry pick a few instances in several years.

[Reldan]

From the officers point of view and in the heat of the moment, I'd be concerned the other woman might try going for one of his weapons while his hands were full trying to cuff the first woman. Who knows what somebody already crazy and aggressive enough to jump a police officer might do?

This entire incident has very little to do with the jaywalking and everything to do with resisting arrest and assault, and I do not believe the resisting arrest and assault portion of the incident was racially driven at all. I'd expect a couple white kids downtown pulling this same shit to get the same treatment. McCullough, I understand your point but don't understand why you feel it's relevant to the punching.