Digital Foundry looks closer at 3DS

[Dave Long]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-nintendo-3ds

The more I read about it, the more I'd like to have one, and I haven't been too big on 3D movies.

This really stands out...


In contrast to the current 3D screens using glasses, there's absolutely no dulled image quality with 3DS. Conventional stereo 3D requires half of the light emitted by the display to be sent to each eye, reducing overall clarity. Not so with 3DS, which is vibrant and beautiful.

Also, some cool game talk regarding the hardware capability and final payoff...


Oli's already raved about this, but this is an important title not least because Kojima Productions has put its name to it, meaning that it's the real deal. Not only that but the demo itself is very reminiscent of the extended trailers Kojima-san's team used to put together to thrill us at the trade shows of yore. There's just one difference with this one: it's clearly running in real-time, and we have control of the camera via the analogue nub.

Switching between first- and third-person cameras we get to see Snake moving stealthily through the jungle, facing a giant snake that pops out of the screen, negotiating his way past an enemy patrol, crossing a rope bridge and evading a swarm of bees (!) before facing off against a boss [surely "Boss" - Ed] in a field of flowers shedding their petals. Beautiful stuff. If you ever get to check out this demo, you will instantly want to buy a 3DS. It's that compelling.

In a similar vein to the MGS demo we have Resident Evil: Revelations from Capcom. No gameplay environments, but what we do have is a cut-scene featuring dynamic camera tweaking, zoom options and a pause button for appreciating some of the more spectacular shots.

What impresses here is that it looks as though Capcom has tried to scale back its Resident Evil 5 models to work on the 3DS. While backgrounds are very simplistic, those player models are astonishingly well-realised and very good-looking. The fact that the Chris Redfield model is readily recognisable from his HD adventures speaks for itself.

One worry quashed...


One thing to be clear of here though is that, generally speaking, the sweet spot for the 3D effect is much larger than you would think. There is some occasional cross-talk (i.e. image data for one eye encroaching onto the other eye) but for the most part the effect is crystal clear and you won't have any problem enjoying the full effect.

[TheWombat]

As I play primarily 2D SRPGs and related games on my DS, I wonder if there will be anything like that (turn-based, strategic/tactical focused, etc.) that takes advantage of this technology, or will the new hardware result in nothing but action titles for future DS development?

[Tortilla]

The 3DS thing is just a gimmick. Nintendo loves gimmicks and mostly they don't translate into any useful gameplay experiences. I'm not going to get excited about the 3DS until someone reviews a game that uses the feature to deliver compelling gameplay that Nintendo DS couldn't have delivered.

[Talorc]

One of the most frequently quoted reasons for modern game development costing so much (and thus being essentially AAA hit driven and all that entails for niche genres) is the cost of 3D art assets.

Will the move to 3D just set off the same problem in the DS?

[CLWheeljack]

I'm curious about the 3D API's the 3DS has. There's probably some guys who already have DevKits on the board, but I'm sure they're NDA'd on that sort of thing.

The adjustable 3d effect seems like it'd be pretty transparent with 3D graphics: just use the z-value to determine how much depth the scene is supposed to have. The slider can just be used to determine a multiplier for the co-ordinates to perceived depth.

What I'm really curious about is how 2d graphics might work with the 3D effect. Obviously, you could probably do it with billboards in a 3D scene, but I'm wondering if there's a 2D layering API to easily make 2d games that take advantage of the 3d effects. I'd love to play a straight 2D game with a paper story-book / puppet show 3d feel. Something like the Vanillaware games would be fantastic.

[Lee Johnson]

I hear what you're saying, Kraaze, but substitute a few words in your post, and it reads exactly like the apprehensive posts ahead of the release of the original DS:

The two-screen thing is just a gimmick. Nintendo loves gimmicks and mostly they don't translate into any useful gameplay experiences. I'm not going to get excited about the Nintendo DS until someone reviews a game that uses the feature to deliver compelling gameplay that the Game Boy Advance SP couldn't have delivered.
And we all know what a crushing failure the DS turned out to be. :P

[CLWheeljack]

One of the most frequently quoted reasons for modern game development costing so much (and thus being essentially AAA hit driven and all that entails for niche genres) is the cost of 3D art assets.

Will the move to 3D just set off the same problem in the DS?

We have to be careful not to conflate the 3D visual effect from 3D graphics. The nintendo press conference was really inreresting in this regard. Reggie clearly stumbled when describing Mario 64 because he wanted to say it brough Mario into 3D, but he didn't want to confuse the issue, so he had to say "fully realized world" or something like that.

The issues that would push the 3DS in that direction are processing power and screen resolution, I don't think the 3D effect has much of an effect on asset creation.

I suspect it'll have more influence on level design / artistic design (ie style rather than more content) to make things read well. The nightmare scenario for me is that QA teams will forget to test content with the 3D effect, leading to Dead Rising text-style issues, where you're forced to use certain levels of 3D for different games.

[Mike Cathcart]

The 3DS thing is just a gimmick. Nintendo loves gimmicks and mostly they don't translate into any useful gameplay experiences. I'm not going to get excited about the 3DS until someone reviews a game that uses the feature to deliver compelling gameplay that Nintendo DS couldn't have delivered.
Whatever, Mr Grouchypants. Even if the 3D wasn't there this thing is still desirable. It's the new Nintendo handheld with Dreamcast/PS2 level graphics instead of the PSX/N64 graphics of the DS and according to most of the hands on reports it has a really nice analog stick/nub/whatever you call it that is better than the one on the PSP. Sold! Also it renders things in 3D and that looks pretty neat. Bonus!

Even if you turn the 3D off because it doesn't increase your gameplay mechanics by 8.32 gameplay fun units, or whatever you're looking for, this is the new platform for the latest and greatest of the type of stuff you get on a DS. If you don't own and aren't interested in a DS then it probably won't do much for you. If you are, you get prettier games and they'll look extra cool because of the 3D.

[BobJustBob]

One of the most frequently quoted reasons for modern game development costing so much (and thus being essentially AAA hit driven and all that entails for niche genres) is the cost of 3D art assets.

Will the move to 3D just set off the same problem in the DS?

I think that's more a problem with high-quality 3D assets. The PS2 library was full of niche games so that level of asset creation clearly isn't too expensive.

[Jazar]

I want to know if the effect is comfortable enough to be used for an extented period of time or does it cause some eye strain after a while? Does it work only in a very limited angle and distance or can you move your head around a bit (i.e. will it work on a bumpy car ride?)

Finally what kind of tech is being used to achieve stereoscopic images without glasses?

[CLWheeljack]

Finally what kind of tech is being used to achieve stereoscopic images without glasses?

Not sure if you wanted more detail than this, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereoscopy

Looks like the specific tech used by the 3DS hasn't been revealed, but it probably isn't that different from the parallax barrier or lenticular lenses.

[Jazar]

Not sure if you wanted more detail than this, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereoscopy

Looks like the specific tech used by the 3DS hasn't been revealed, but it probably isn't that different from the parallax barrier or lenticular lenses.

As I understand it parallax barriers effectively cut the resolution in half (each eye sees only half the pixels) and can have banding / ghosting problems in addition to possible eye strain. I'm wondering if anyone noticed these issues.

[CLWheeljack]

As I understand it parallax barriers effectively cut the resolution in half (each eye sees only half the pixels) and can have banding / ghosting problems in addition to possible eye strain. I'm wondering if anyone noticed these issues.

Digging around for some 3DS tech specs, the resolution halving does seem to be the case (800x240 pixels, 400x240 pixels per eye).

For comparison, current DS is 256x192, PSP is 480 x 272.

[Tortilla]

I hear what you're saying, Kraaze, but substitute a few words in your post, and it reads exactly like the apprehensive posts ahead of the release of the original DS. And we all know what a crushing failure the DS turned out to be. :P

Oh sure, I'm not saying that the 3DS is going to be a failure. Quite to the contrary I'm sure it will do well and I'll probably end up owning two or three of them. I just don't think the 3D thing is anything but a sales gimmick. Just like I thought (and still think) that the touch screen/dual screen on the DS was anything but a gimmick.

I can't think of any games I loved on the DS that made any special use of the gimmick. Lots of games used the touch screen but not in any way integral to gameplay or to do anything that couldn't have been handled via a traditional thumbpad + button controls.

[LesJarvis]

As I understand it parallax barriers effectively cut the resolution in half (each eye sees only half the pixels) and can have banding / ghosting problems in addition to possible eye strain. I'm wondering if anyone noticed these issues.

Eye strain is my big concern. While watching a 3D movie I have to periodically remove the glasses for a minute or two because my eyes get fatigued. Including the 3D switch/dial was clearly a forward-thinking move on Nintendo's part.

[Dave Long]

I want to know if the effect is comfortable enough to be used for an extented period of time or does it cause some eye strain after a while? Does it work only in a very limited angle and distance or can you move your head around a bit (i.e. will it work on a bumpy car ride?)

Finally what kind of tech is being used to achieve stereoscopic images without glasses?
Eye strain isn't covered in the article, but the angle and distance are. It's right in the OP for heaven's sake.

And if the 3D bugs you, you just turn it off with the slider.

Also, the 3D picture taking is one of those "first of its kind" consumer electronics things that will help sell 3DS.

[Dave Long]

As I play primarily 2D SRPGs and related games on my DS, I wonder if there will be anything like that (turn-based, strategic/tactical focused, etc.) that takes advantage of this technology, or will the new hardware result in nothing but action titles for future DS development?
You could play games like this on any platform, though. These kinds of games will still get made just like they have on every platform before it.

Nintendo doesn't tell developers "You cannot make this game!" like Sony did with PlayStation and specifically told developers not to make games in 2D because they would not approve them for sale.

[CLWheeljack]

Oh sure, I'm not saying that the 3DS is going to be a failure. Quite to the contrary I'm sure it will do well and I'll probably end up owning two or three of them. I just don't think the 3D thing is anything but a sales gimmick. Just like I thought (and still think) that the touch screen/dual screen on the DS was anything but a gimmick.

I can't think of any games I loved on the DS that made any special use of the gimmick. Lots of games used the touch screen but not in any way integral to gameplay or to do anything that couldn't have been handled via a traditional thumbpad + button controls.

I don't think you have the same definition of "gimmick" as everybody else.

[sam and the firefly]

Also, the 3D picture taking is one of those "first of its kind" consumer electronics things that will help sell 3DS.

You can get 3D cameras here (with glassesless screens), but I don't think they've exactly set the country on fire. I can't see it being anything more than a really cool bonus on a device that a bunch of people were going to buy anyway.

[Jazar]

Eye strain isn't covered in the article, but the angle and distance are. It's right in the OP for heaven's sake.

Thanks, but I'm looking for more impressions. Also at one point the article mentions a "crystal clear" image, at another point it mentions "pixel edges fairly evident". I just need more detail and discusson from people who have spent a considerable amount of time with the device.

[Dave Long]

Well, that's kind of the point, though. How much do 3D cameras cost if you buy them on their own and what would you view the photos on other than the camera itself?

In this case, you've got a viewer that probably lets you do some fun stuff with the photos after you take them (given just a few of the things they've done with the DSi so far... Photo Dojo has been a huge hit in my house), but it's just a feature that makes the 3D part of 3DS that much more appealing.

Nintendo includes stuff like that all the time, but unlike Sony and Microsoft, don't make a huge deal of it. They just kind of say, "Here you go, this is fun!" and let you enjoy it however you like.

[Tortilla]

I don't think you have the same definition of "gimmick" as everybody else.

I was referring to a gimmick as a product feature that adds no real value beyond making the product seem more quirky and unique. What's your definition like?

[CLWheeljack]

I was referring to a gimmick as a product feature that adds no real value beyond making the product seem more quirky and unique. What's your definition like?

Ah, so we're debating "value" rather than "gimmick".

Personal taste aside, I don't think you can say that the DS touchscreen didn't add significant value to the console. Many of the DS's biggest selling titles would have been impossible without the touch screen (Nintendogs, Brain Age). My wife just finished 100%-ing Picross 3D, which would also have been pretty much unplayable with a standard control scheme.

And just because something is acheiveable using standard controls doesn't mean the touch screen doesn't add value. The experience using the standard d-pad controls could be awkward enough that it would prevent users from playing the game. If the touch screen makes a game more playable, it adds significant value to that game's functionality.

Yes, maybe none of the games you personally liked the most on the system required the touch screen. However, that does not mean that the touch screen was therefore devoid of utility.

[Robert Sharp]

I wonder how this will work for those of us with low depth perception. I can't watch 3d movies with the glasses because I don't fully use both eyes at the same time. So will I have the same problem with this? Sounds like I can turn it off if I am having problems, so that's good. The other features look good, too. An analog stick is great!

I hope it's a good size. My wife just bought me the bigger DS, and I really like it's larger screen.

[sam and the firefly]

Well, that's kind of the point, though. How much do 3D cameras cost if you buy them on their own and what would you view the photos on other than the camera itself?

In this case, you've got a viewer that probably lets you do some fun stuff with the photos after you take them (given just a few of the things they've done with the DSi so far... Photo Dojo has been a huge hit in my house), but it's just a feature that makes the 3D part of 3DS that much more appealing.

Nintendo includes stuff like that all the time, but unlike Sony and Microsoft, don't make a huge deal of it. They just kind of say, "Here you go, this is fun!" and let you enjoy it however you like.

Hey, I agree, I like the DSi camera as it is. I just don't think the feature really sells systems.

I don't know what you'll be able to do with the 3DS's photos, but the 3D cameras here have their own photo frames, work with 3DTVs, etc.

[Hans Lauring]

Well, that's kind of the point, though. How much do 3D cameras cost if you buy them on their own and what would you view the photos on other than the camera itself?

In this case, you've got a viewer that probably lets you do some fun stuff with the photos after you take them (given just a few of the things they've done with the DSi so far... Photo Dojo has been a huge hit in my house), but it's just a feature that makes the 3D part of 3DS that much more appealing.

Nintendo includes stuff like that all the time, but unlike Sony and Microsoft, don't make a huge deal of it. They just kind of say, "Here you go, this is fun!" and let you enjoy it however you like.

You can buy 3D cameras (http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/05/fujifilm-real-3d-camera-given-a-video-hands-on-by-fake-3d-journa/). They're a bit more expensive than similar specced compact cameras (It's a bit hard to compare, because no cameras are completely alike but add $1-200) and you can buy a 3D picture frame (or television) to view them on - the frame doesn't require glasses, the big screen does.

And without having seen the two, I'm pretty sure the 3DS comes nowhere close. The camera in the DSi is on par with my very first mobile phone camera - good for attaching moustatches to your friends faces when you're a kid, but nothing else. According to Engadget the 3DS still uses the same VGA (0,3 megapixels) camera, only there's two of them. So expect results to be lousy... but threedimensional.

I won't say the 3D itself is "just" a gimmick. It's a way to deliver "better" visuals - adding more pixels or another dimension is a way to enrich the experience, so I don't see why it has to deliver new gameplay too. And the fact that you don't need glasses is a huge plus - I'm not buying a new HDTV in the forseeable future just because of 3D... I might buy my third DS (you know, for the kids).

[Dreamshadow]

I hope you all enjoy the 3ds... I'm not buying one, though I'm waiting for them to hit stores so I can get a DSi super size on the cheap.

(I lack depth perception because my eyes don't work in concert. *shrug* No amount of trickery will allow me to see in 3d, when I don't see it in real life.)

[Nawid A]

(I lack depth perception because my eyes don't work in concert. *shrug* No amount of trickery will allow me to see in 3d, when I don't see it in real life.)
I have the same problem, but this a major hardware upgrade anyway, so I think I may still get one.

[Tortilla]

Personal taste aside, I don't think you can say that the DS touchscreen didn't add significant value to the console. Many of the DS's biggest selling titles would have been impossible without the touch screen (Nintendogs, Brain Age). My wife just finished 100%-ing Picross 3D, which would also have been pretty much unplayable with a standard control scheme.


I never played any of those games, so I can't comment on them. All the games I played that used the touch screen didn't do anything with it that a standard control scheme didn't also offer. The best was probably PQ but I still preferred the PSP version since higher resolution graphics were better than a gimmick like the touch screen.



Yes, maybe none of the games you personally liked the most on the system required the touch screen. However, that does not mean that the touch screen was therefore devoid of utility.

I'm aware of a few games that would have been absolutely impossible without the touch screen, but I bet their overall sales is a drop in the bucket of all DS title sales. The touch screen was a gimmick, the things that made the DS great were the price point and portability and vast game library.

[sam and the firefly]

At what point does something stop becoming a gimmick, in your esteemed eyes? Clearly really far beyond the point where it sells millions of units of software that would've otherwise been impossible and arguably creates entire new genres.

Don't make me list them.

[Coca Cola Zero]

The 3DS thing is just a gimmick. Nintendo loves gimmicks and mostly they don't translate into any useful gameplay experiences. I'm not going to get excited about the 3DS until someone reviews a game that uses the feature to deliver compelling gameplay that Nintendo DS couldn't have delivered.

I haven't seen the 3DS stuff yet, but the cries of this not really enabling new gameplay types is kind of like saying that anything higher than 8bit color is a gimmick, because really it doesn't help you deliver games you couldn't have delivered before.

Sometimes the presentation really is important just for its own sake.

[Mike Cathcart]

I hope you all enjoy the 3ds... I'm not buying one, though I'm waiting for them to hit stores so I can get a DSi super size on the cheap.

(I lack depth perception because my eyes don't work in concert. *shrug* No amount of trickery will allow me to see in 3d, when I don't see it in real life.)
This is like not buying the GBA because you were color blind so obviously there could be no advantage over your original Game Boy. Turn the 3D off and enjoy the fact that this is the new DS with better graphics and the ability to play all of the old DS games as well as all of the new 3DS games that will be coming out.

[Jazar]

This is like not buying the GBA because you were color blind so obviously there could be no advantage over your original Game Boy.

You mean the GB Color. The GBA was a big leap over GB.

[Mike Cathcart]

No, I meant the GBA.

[Jazar]

Sorry I thought you said "this is not like," not, "this is like not"

doh.

[Dreamshadow]

At what point does something stop becoming a gimmick, in your esteemed eyes? Clearly really far beyond the point where it sells millions of units of software that would've otherwise been impossible and arguably creates entire new genres.

Don't make me list them.


Well (considering my post above) the whole 3d thing is a gimmick and is just gonna make TVs more expensive for me for no payoff. But that is because I'm a unique situation. Granted, if your source is flat, then the image is going to be flat (in my mind). I'd rather have projection tank/ holotank style displays instead for '3d'.

[Brakara]

I like the sound of this:


In contrast to the current 3D screens using glasses, there's absolutely no dulled image quality with 3DS.

Before E3, I had no plans to get a 3DS, but now I'm fairly certain I'll get one. I like 3D, but I just hate how it looks with those glasses.

[Dave Long]

Yeah, that's a standout feature for me.

[Dreamshadow]

This is like not buying the GBA because you were color blind so obviously there could be no advantage over your original Game Boy. Turn the 3D off and enjoy the fact that this is the new DS with better graphics and the ability to play all of the old DS games as well as all of the new 3DS games that will be coming out.


Very interesting. I wasn't aware that the 3d option could be toggled. That makes the 3ds nicer than I had originally thought.

[Dave Weinstein]

Want.

Never did get around to getting a DS, so I think I'll hold off for this.

[TheWombat]

You could play games like this on any platform, though. These kinds of games will still get made just like they have on every platform before it.

Nintendo doesn't tell developers "You cannot make this game!" like Sony did with PlayStation and specifically told developers not to make games in 2D because they would not approve them for sale.

Yeah, but what I'm asking is whether these type of games will benefit from 3D per se, or will they be pretty much the same, in terms of look/graphics, as they are now? The DS is the ultimate platform right now for that sort of gaming and while I'm sure folks like Atlus will continue to publish for it I'm just curious--it'd be interesting to have, say, Fire Emblem or Luminous Arc or Disgaea using this tech.

[sam and the firefly]

Well (considering my post above) the whole 3d thing is a gimmick and is just gonna make TVs more expensive for me for no payoff. But that is because I'm a unique situation. Granted, if your source is flat, then the image is going to be flat (in my mind). I'd rather have projection tank/ holotank style displays instead for '3d'.

I was talking about the touchscreen!

[intruder]

Well first a R4 / M3 card will be needed then sales will really take off (sad but true).

Let's see how fast the hackers are this time.

[alexlitel]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around 3D effect popping out of a screen without glasses.

[intruder]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around 3D effect popping out of a screen without glasses.

Do we really know if things pop out?
I was / am of the impression that it's more like looking into a box or through a window and see stuff in 3D there.

[Chris Nahr]

I believe this hasn't been mentioned before...


According to the paper, gamers will be able copy 3DS software to internal memory. Multiple games can be stored with the system in this fashion. You'll be able to switch between games by selecting a title from the system's main menu.

The paper notes that due to this feature, there'll be no need to swap cartridges. When outside of the home, you won't need to carry game cartridges with you.

Translated from a Nikkei article by Andriasang (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/17/3ds_software_install/), via Games Industry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/report-3ds-to-allow-software-installs). If true that's fantastic news, and cuts off one major gateway to piracy -- as in, you no longer need a device capable of copying games to avoid lugging cartridges around.

[JD]

My biggest concern was the quality of the screen when the 3DS was announced. The other autostereoscopic displays I've seen so far looked - and the DF article notes this as well - muddy, dark, and lacked sharpness. And hey, it's not like Nintendo never released hardware with shitty screens (Virtual Boy, first GBA). I'm glad that 3DS screen seems way better than that.

[Chris Nahr]

I'm just sad they didn't put in two analogue sticks. The lack of a second stick is a serious problem for the PSP -- less so for the DS so far since it doesn't try to play PS2 ports, but it would have been nice to play twin-stick shooters properly.

[CharlesC]

Are there any guesses for price and date yet?

[Dave Long]

Nintendo hasn't said anything yet, but rumors are October for the 3DS and also March of next year. They could easily do a Japanese roll out this year and the rest of the world in 2011 given past history, but they've been trying to get closer to worldwide releases in recent times.

[TheTrunkDr]

Very interesting. I wasn't aware that the 3d option could be toggled. That makes the 3ds nicer than I had originally thought.
I find it hilarious that turning off its defining feature makes the product more desirable, I also tend to agree.

I think that right there is proof this is a gimmick.


I'm just sad they didn't put in two analogue sticks. The lack of a second stick is a serious problem for the PSP -- less so for the DS so far since it doesn't try to play PS2 ports, but it would have been nice to play twin-stick shooters properly.
By hooking up a keyboard and mouse?

[CharlesC]

Yeah hardware and games look pretty far along in the dev process. Holiday wouldn't surprise me.

Price I have no idea about. This seems like a huge upgrade to the DSi which is...$190 now? I'm guessing it'll be $250 at least.

[Dave Long]

Lots of smarter people than me about this hardware and what it costs don't think it will be more than $200. In fact, they think Nintendo could profit easily at $150, but expect them to put it more around $199.99.

[Kevin Grey]

Translated from a Nikkei article by Andriasang (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/17/3ds_software_install/), via Games Industry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/report-3ds-to-allow-software-installs). If true that's fantastic news, and cuts off one major gateway to piracy -- as in, you no longer need a device capable of copying games to avoid lugging cartridges around.

I wonder how they are going to authenticate that. Online checks? Maybe you have to actually put the cartridge back in periodically (every week or so) to verify you have it. Otherwise what's going to stop people from buying and then immediately selling the game, renting it, or just borrowing it from a friend.

[Dave Long]

There must be something there to prevent piracy. Nintendo are pretty big on stopping it.

[Fugitive]

I could think of a few ways they could do it: online auth/deauth on the copy, with a unique identifier in each cart; a flag within the cart itself that disables it while an internal copy has been made, until you put it back in and delete the copy and reenable it; limiting it to something like three games to make large-scale piracy impractical...

The challenge for Nintendo is finding a solution that isn't too much of a hassle or risk (e.g., in the first two cases above, what happens if your 3DS dies before you can deauth/delete the copy?).

[CLWheeljack]

One possible, but kludgy solution: whenever a game is copied, flag the cartridge and an online DB as having the game "checked out". If the game is put into a new DS, the game is already checked out, and can't be copied again.

If the game is deleted from that DS, the next time the cartridge is put in, it checks and sees the game isn't on the DS anymore, and checks itself back in.

The online DB could be a secondary system: in addition to saving which DS has it checked out on the cartridge, save it online, so that I can un-register a particular cartridge even if I don't have the cartridge nearby (eg I lend a friend a game without checking it in, then check it in from my DS, he can still play it).

[Dave Long]

It might work like the Wii with Virtual Console/WiiWare where the games get tied to the system once you buy them.

[mkozlows]

Translated from a Nikkei article by Andriasang (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/17/3ds_software_install/), via Games Industry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/report-3ds-to-allow-software-installs). If true that's fantastic news, and cuts off one major gateway to piracy -- as in, you no longer need a device capable of copying games to avoid lugging cartridges around.

It seems unlikely, though. Someone said that 3DS cartridges are 2GB each. If the 3DS had a generous 8GB of internal storage, like an iPhone, that'd still only let you put on four games, which is hardly worth thinking about.

Although also, that does mean that R4/Acekard/whatever things are also less useful for 3DS games, as 8GB MicroSD cards are about as big as you can economically get, and being able to carry around four games in one cartridge isn't that big a win. They'd still be good for holding your entire legacy DS library, of course; and in a few years, when you can get 32GB MicroSD, it'll be different.

[Gunmetal]

Cartridge capacity is usually measured in megabits, not bytes, so that's a few more games (if it had storage capacity similar to modern smartphone). Although with the increase to graphic fidelity, the size of the 3DS games will also increase over the size of regular DS games.

Maybe to cut down on piracy there would be some sort of registering of the 3DS itself with the cart, although I imagine that would increase the cost of every cartridge

[runesword forger]

Dunno if this moves 3D gaming beyond gimmick for some, but Miyamoto (I think it was him) talked about the depth perception improving player response accuracy. His example was the floating blocks in a 3d mario game, where players sometimes misaligned depth and would miss the block on a jump. Implication was that the 3ds would curtail the issue.

[Chris Nahr]

By hooking up a keyboard and mouse?

...what? edit: Oh, I guess you misread "twin-stick shooter" as "first-person shooter." I don't particularly care about such shooters on any portable device since they tend to need at least a real gamepad and better graphics, but twin stick shooters are perfect for portable systems.

[Abilio Carvalho]

well, that IS the proper way to play shooters...

[Farscry]

Dunno if this moves 3D gaming beyond gimmick for some, but Miyamoto (I think it was him) talked about the depth perception improving player response accuracy. His example was the floating blocks in a 3d mario game, where players sometimes misaligned depth and would miss the block on a jump. Implication was that the 3ds would curtail the issue.

This is precisely why I'm so excited about the 3DS. The biggest trouble with 3D gaming on a 2D display is a lack of true depth perception. Developers have been working around this all along, making use of shadows, player-controlled cameras, and other visual cues to help players, but a good 3D display would eliminate the problem entirely.

[Jazar]

I'll believe that when I see it for myself. Stereoscopy isn't holography. There's still going to be some difficulty in determening precise depth perception while navigating 3D space.

[liquidben]

well, that IS the proper way to play shooters...
Obviously you need a better explanation: Shooter does not mean first person shooter.

First-Person Shooter: Doom, Quake, Crysis, Bioshock, Portal
Twin-Stick shooter: Robotron, Geometry Wars, Everyday Shooter, Pixeljunk Shooter

If you like playing twin-stick shooters with keyboard & mouse, please know you're in the minority.

[Chris Nahr]

I think he was joking... I hope.

[CLWheeljack]

Did they say anything about front-facing camera on the 3DS? It'd be super neat if they had even rudimentary head-tracking as an option on some games.

[MonkeyPunky]

You don't play SmashTV with a mouse and keyboard?

[Jazar]

Did they say anything about front-facing camera on the 3DS? It'd be super neat if they had even rudimentary head-tracking as an option on some games.

I believe there is a front facing camera.

[runesword forger]

Yeah, there's one front facing for whatever purpose, and two back facing for taking 3D pics. Dunno if it does eye-tracking. The hardware specs are mostly unknown, but screen shots seem to be roughly gamecube level.

The hawt rumor is that it has the storage and ability to keep multiple games instantly on tap. Miyamoto said "he didn't know anything about that" which is a bit short of a denial.

If the online gets a decent lobby and drops friend codes, the gizmo may ascend directly to heaven.

[Jason Cross]

The coolest thing about the dual cameras on the back for 3D imaging is for augmented reality games.

It lets the 3D screen display a live feed, in 3D, of what is behind the 3DS (in front of the user, in other words) and superimpose 3D graphics on top of it. This should be a really substantial improvement over augmented reality in 2D.

[PeterGinsberg]

Has anyone seen a video of any sort of the "Face Ace Tech Demo" I've heard various sites mentioning (IGN (http://ds.ign.com/articles/109/1098448p1.html))? It sounds kind of hilarious.

[Royal Fool]

Yeah, the Giant Bomb guys described the Face Ace tech demo as the craziest thing ever.

[Gendal]

Has anyone seen a video of any sort of the "Face Ace Tech Demo" I've heard various sites mentioning (IGN (http://ds.ign.com/articles/109/1098448p1.html))? It sounds kind of hilarious.

In the background was the view from the camera on the back of the 3DS
And also in stereo I imagine thanks to the dual cameras. I admit, the whole possibility of augmented reality applications in 3D escaped me till I read that.

[wonderpug]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around 3D effect popping out of a screen without glasses.

The MIT museum has a gallery of high-quality holograms that go way beyond the miniscule 3d effect you see on credit card holograms. This one hologram about 3 feet wide displayed a scientist's observatory with a telescope sticking several feet out at the viewer. You could look at the top of the telescope, the bottom, the left, and the right side, and if you put your eye up to it then you could see a starscape through the viewfinder.

[Chris Nahr]

More on the new 3DS graphics chip: Digital Foundry article (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-3ds-gpu-revealed-blog-post) and Futuremark demo video (http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/nintendo-3ds-gpu-tech-demo) for the chip (not necessarily representative of its 3DS incarnation).

As usual Nintendo went for older, cheaper tech: it's a DMP PICA200 GPU from 2006, somewhat less powerful than the iPhone 3GS and without programmable pixel shaders. Until the rumored PSP2 with its rumored multicore GPU actually comes out, though, it's surprisingly close to the state of the art for handhelds.

[runesword forger]

Another interesting feature is the motion sensors. On the Nintendo site, the hardware lead was discussing using them for first person shooters. Idea was that you turn your body holding the 3ds and the view turns with you. Gets around the prob with a fixed position TV set.

But... It makes me wonder about the controls, still. If the slide pad is used for movement, this scheme has you using the stylus while standing for aiming/shooting. Seems like that could be a bit unwieldy.

The image of my kids spinning left or right to pick off enemies is kind of amusing, though.

[Linoleum]

As usual Nintendo went for older, cheaper tech

Also, less power hungry.

[Chris Nahr]

Another Andriasang translation (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/06/18/3ds_newspaper_view/) from a Nikkei interview with Satoru Iwata. Now they're planning to turn the 3DS into a magazine reader!


In a Nikkei interview Thursday morning, Nintendo CEO Satoru Iwata detailed some of the new system's wireless features. "As you carry it with you while out and about, it will seek out and automatically connect with wireless LAN spots, and download information."

This is one of the features Nintendo announced for the system in its official reveal on the first day of E3 earlier this week. But in the interview, Iwata mentioned one possible application for this feature. "We're thinking about functionality where it will automatically acquire newspaper and magazine articles," said Iwata.

Nice extra functionality, though not exactly an iPad killer with the small low-resolution screen.

[Dave Long]

Every now and then I use the News Channel on the Wii and Nintendo's layout is super cool. It makes it fun to read up on what's going on around the globe.

Having something similar on the 3DS would be welcome. Just another little feature to mess with. I dig that.

[CLWheeljack]

It looks like Nintendo is at least aware of the possibility of the DS evolving into a convergence device, especially in Japan, where people do a lot more internet / email / news reading on their phones. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with now that they appear to be really embracing internet technologies.

It'll also be interesting to see if their delayed arrival will hurt them as much as people in the US tend to think it will. My guess is that their usage model makes a lot more sense from a japan-centric perspective.

[Dave Long]

It's not so different from what the Wii does already with the always on Internet functionality and the channels. They're just putting it in the palm of your hand.

What I like is when Nintendo does this stuff it's fun!

[Hans Lauring]

Another function on my Wii I never use.
Once in a while my oldest remember the Everybody Votes! channel and we futz around with that for 10 minutes (the five spent on waiting for updates)

[Dave Long]

That's kind of the point, though. Nintendo isn't shoving this stuff in your face like Microsoft and Sony do for marketing purposes. "FACEBOOK! ESPN! COKE!"

They just throw it in there and let you have fun with it if you choose. What's impressive about it all though, is they clearly spend a lot of time designing it and making it fun to use. Far moreso than the others do. Take a look around the News Channel sometime, or even Weather. Same thing with the Photo Channel. They don't have to include the drawing stuff, but it's fun and kids dig it. Same with the ability to make puzzles out of your pictures.

Here's some hidden stuff in the Photo Channel for example...
http://www.wiichat.com/nintendo-wii-chat/9864-little-known-wii-features-photo-channel.html

I much prefer their understated approach to offering these extras because ultimately they're just that, extras. I buy the machine to play games.

If we're talking handhelds, there's stuff like Flipnote Studio, Photo Dojo, etc. that are silly fun too. None of it's designed to suck you in for hours.

[aphoristic gamer]

Going to disable the 3D effect before even powering the device on the first time and perpetually leave it at off. I hate this 3D gimmicky bullcrap with a visceral brand of hatred.

[Dave Long]

I think your reply is exactly why Nintendo included the slider. That and the fact they're already saying kids under age eight or so shouldn't be watching 3D movies because it can screw with eye development.

[James Gutierrez]

That and the fact they're already saying kids under age eight or so shouldn't be watching 3D movies because it can screw with eye development.
Seriously? What is the difference between 3D movies and games?

[Dave Long]

There is no difference when we're talking about 3D with glasses or without. Nintendo is already saying the same thing about 3DS. I don't have links handy, but both movies and videogames that use 3D technology are considered potentially damaging to young children with developing eyeballs due to the stereoscopic tech.

[CLWheeljack]

Seriously? That seems...problematic for Nintendo. Did this come to light recently? I can't imagine they made a product like that knowing that it might be developmentally harmful to a signifcant portion of their core market.

[Dave Long]

I read it at GAF IIRC. I'll try to find the links. It's not just Nintendo, it's films on the big screen too according to what I read. Studies are basically saying it's not good for developing kids.

[Dave Long]

Here you go... Totilo reported it during E3.

http://kotaku.com/5566671/nintendo-testing-healthiness-of-3ds-advising-young-children-to-avoid-3d


"We are working with the experts in the field," he said. "We've done extensive testing. We have a legacy of bringing only the best and finest products to the marketplace.

Fils-Aime was addressing concerns that the system's eye-popping tech might cause headaches or other unpleasantness if viewed for an extended period of time. The 3DS' top screen uses undisclosed technology and optical tricks to make a user looking directly at the screen feel as if the graphics of the game they are playing have added depth, the difference between looking at a movie that shows fish and a fishtank.

The one population of players he would like to keep from using the optional 3D display of the 3DS are children under seven.

"We will recommend that very young children not look at 3D images," he said. "That's because, [in] young children, the muscles for the eyes are not fully formed... This is the same messaging that the industry is putting out with 3D movies, so it is a standard protocol. We have the same type of messaging for the [1990s Nintendo virtual reality machine] Virtual Boy, as an example."

Fils-Aime said that "young children" cut-off edge would be around seven. Kids are certainly a relevant portion of Nintendo's audience, eager consumers of games like Pokemon and Nintendogs, the latter of which will see a sequel called Nintendogs + Cats on the 3DS. A slider on the 3DS allows a user to decrease and eventually shut off the machine's 3D display, flattening the game graphics to the more conventional flat look.

[CLWheeljack]

After some googling, a slightly more complete technical discussion here:
http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/06/19/a-guide-to-3d-display-technology-its-principles-methods-and-dangers/

[James Gutierrez]

Jesus, that's pretty terrible. I like how he tries to play it off as just the same as 3D movies, ignoring the huge disparity between a 2 hour movie every few weeks and hours of gaming every day. This just seems like a PR/legal disaster waiting to happen.

[Dave Long]

Nintendo definitely likes warning stickers and warning screens. I'm sure the 3DS is going to have plenty of literature explaining that kids under 7 should not use it for extended periods in 3D mode.

[mkozlows]

Nintendo definitely likes warning stickers and warning screens. I'm sure the 3DS is going to have plenty of literature explaining that kids under 7 should not use it for extended periods in 3D mode.

Nintendo is creating a device, directly marketed to children, which they know has the possibility to harm those children, and they're not even providing a parental control off-switch -- but you think it's okay, because they've got a warning label?

I'm actually pretty sceptical about the whole "3D is harmful" thing, but if it's real, then that's a horrible idea.

[BobJustBob]

Nintendo is creating a device, directly marketed to children

Citation needed.

[mkozlows]

I agree that Mario and Zelda appeal more to the 30-something Gen-X crowd than youth-oriented franchises like Halo or COD, but Nintendo also has like Pokemon.

[BobJustBob]

Pokemon is a game. I thought we were talking about a $200-$300 piece of hardware.

[Dave Long]

There's a slider for the 3D. You can turn it off. Nintendo has parental controls in the DSi and Wii today. They will likely have that in the 3DS. I can easily see them including the 3D effect in the parental controls.

Also, while I know you know better, I'll just say that DS is marketed to everyone, not just kids. Same with the Wii.

[CLWheeljack]

There's a slider for the 3D. You can turn it off. Nintendo has parental controls in the DSi and Wii today. They will likely have that in the 3DS. I can easily see them including the 3D effect in the parental controls.

Actually, that's a good point. The slider isn't some hardware setting, its just a switch that adjusts something in software. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a parental control over-ride on the switch to turn off the 3D. It wouldn't even have to be a "parental control" per se. People have expressed their desire to not use it at all, a software switch to totally ignore the 3D slider position might be useful for them, too.

If you want to argue if parents are going to make use of that (still hypothetical) feature, however, that's a different matter.

[mkozlows]

Actually, that's a good point. The slider isn't some hardware setting, its just a switch that adjusts something in software.

Is it? I assumed it was directly manipulating a physical thing, but I guess I have no idea.

[Gunmetal]

Is it? I assumed it was directly manipulating a physical thing, but I guess I have no idea.

I hope it's a physical thing, because as soon as I get a 3DS I'm opening it up and cranking that switch in the opposite direction to see if I can push the screen into 4D

[Dave Long]

I think it's safe to say it's happening in software. The way this is described, the pixels are lit in different directions more or less based on where the slider is set. I think that implies it's happening inside the device at a hardware/software level. There's probably something in the OS of the device that controls it and could easily be added as a setting on the little wrench screen.

[Mike Cathcart]

It's not a physical thing on the screen. That's why the slider works on games but has no effect on 3D movies.

[russellmz00]

Nintendo is creating a device, directly marketed to children, which they know has the possibility to harm those children, and they're not even providing a parental control off-switch -- but you think it's okay, because they've got a warning label?

I'm actually pretty sceptical about the whole "3D is harmful" thing, but if it's real, then that's a horrible idea.

again!? (http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/june03/dumbestmoments/index15.shtml)


What is quite clear, though, is that the Virtual Boy was an experiment gone wrong that shouldn't have made it past the prototype phase. Besides the obvious ergonomic issues, the strange way in which the hardware abused the eyes could cause headaches after extended use. Worse, Nintendo had to include a warning that the unit should not be used by children up to seven years of age -- for fear of damaging their vision! If this didn't set off an alarm bell with someone at Nintendo, what could have? (Further, how was it discovered that it damaged youthful eyes? Hmm.)

[JD]

In highly unexciting news... (http://kotaku.com/5728198/youll-get-3+8-hours-out-of-a-nintendo-3ds-battery)

It takes 3.5 hours for a 3DS battery to fully charge, which is pretty good. As for how fast that battery drains, Nintendo has only provided a select number of figures, all based on the presumption you're using the handheld on a lower screen brightness level.

With the screen's backlighting turned down (but not off), you'll get 3-5 hours of battery life while playing a 3DS game. That number extends to 5-8 hours if you're playing an older DS game on the handheld.

Ugh. It was expected to be below DS level in terms of battery life, but still...

[Brad Grenz]

So, to wrap up, they are using really underpowered 3d hardware, pricing it like a high-end device and can't even maintain the legendary Nintendo portable battery life? That second screen is seeming more and more like an albatross around the 3DS's neck.

[JD]

Dunno. I've got to toy around with one for an hour or so last August, and thought that the device itself and the graphics are fine enough. The 3D is really neat, too.

Still, 3-5 hours is a bit disappointing by Nintendo standards, especially since you're not getting the best experience (screen brightness turned up) out of it. Assuming that you'll ultimately get 3-4 hours of battery life, that thing is not even going to make it through a normal train ride. Also, 3.5 hours for a full charge? I don't think I own any device - be it notebooks or cell phones - that takes that long.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

This implies if you turn up brightness the time taken to recharge the battery may be longer than time it takes to use up the charge.

[Brad Grenz]

Dunno. I've got to toy around with one for an hour or so last August, and thought that the device itself and the graphics are fine enough. The 3D is really neat, too.

The graphics may be fine, and it's a pretty big jump up from the DS, but it is also only slightly more powerful than the 6 year old PSP with a lower effective resolution, and significantly behind something like the current generation of iPod Touch. All that would be well and good if they were positioning it at a far lower price point and delivering the kind of battery life they had in the past.

[beloved one]

I read that long article, and as near as I can see, the "danger to kids" is just based on the idea that they might get more used to seeing 3d displays rather than real 3d objects, and optimize their vision patterns for it. For that to be plausible... I mean, they'd have to spend a majority of their time staring at the little screens? Or close to?

I'm sure some parents would let their kids stare at such displays non-stop, but sounds like the uptake of 3d TV programming will eventually bring out the same problem anyway. Still, even people that like 3d at this point suffer eye strain after an hour or two, so it seems this would be self-regulating to some extent.

Honestly, I'll be surprised if anyone's vision is ever shown to be damaged by 3D -- instead, what will almost certainly be a health problem is the strobe effects of shutter glasses causing more seizures. I knew an epileptic, who generally ignored the video game epilepsy warning, but definitely had problems with strobing lights (unfortunately including some police lights). Seems likely to cause unneeded and possibly dangerous seizures in people with mild childhood epilepsy.

[JD]

So, the battery lifetime was a bit of a bummer. This time, however: Screw you, Nintendo (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-01-11-nintendo-3ds-region-locked).

Importers and globetrotting gamers suffered a blow today after it emerged that Nintendo 3DS software will be region-locked.

[Chris Nahr]

And Kotaku rumormongers (http://kotaku.com/5730323/is-the-nintendo-dsi-dead) that Nintendo has already stopped producing the DSi. If true that would be first time in my recollection that Nintendo discontinues one handheld before releasing its successor. And that would seem to indicate that they don't trust the market to support both the expensive 3DS and a cheaper DSi.

[Linoleum]

Kotaku is smoking crack.

[intruder]

Next detail that will probably piss off a lot of people was revealed: Region-locked (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-01-11-nintendo-3ds-region-locked)

No idea why Nintendo paints a huge big bullseye on itself for hackers that will see this as the next challenge.

[pyjamarama]

Because the Euro is consistently 30% above the Dollar and the amount of Europeans that were importing DS games from the US was substantial. That's my guess anyway.

[Kurdel]

I don't care for the 3DS. I think it is overpriced and looks like ass.

But OoT, MGS3 and Animal Crossing are all my weaknesses. And it comes with a plastic stand to recharge it?


Fucking Nintendo cock suckers... Making me want their product...

[Chris Nahr]

GamesIndustry (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-01-11-nintendo-denies-dsi-phase-out) reports that Nintendo denies having discontinued the DSi, although it sounds as if they plan to stop production by 2012.


"We plan to still manufacture and supply DSi consoles in a range of colours in the UK in 2011," said Nintendo.

"On an on-going basis, continuing supply is based on retail and consumer demand."

[BleedTheFreak]

Arise!

Not a lot of 3DS users around, eh? Well, I am getting a 3DS XL for Christmas this year (my DS died almost 3 years ago and I've missed having access to portable Mario and such) so I have been doing some digging on what games I can expect to get now, and what might be coming out.

So far I have already picked up two games, and the bundle comes with a third, so come Christmas I'm already sort of set.

Mario 3D Land
Dragon Quest IX (DS)
Mario Kart 7 (Bundle)

I'd like to get these games at some point:

New Super Mario 2 (I really liked the first one on the Wii)
Ocarina of Time 3D (I've still never played this, seems like a good time)

And there are a few great looking games coming out early next year:

Fire Emblem Awakening (Feb 2013)
Etrian Odyssey 4 (Feb 2013, I think, maybe March)

Are there any other titles out or coming out that I should turn my attention to?

Bear in mind I'm never, ever going to buy anything from any Nintendo eShop thing until they actually do something account based, and not device based, or whatever their deal is.

Anyone have any thoughts on the XL itself? I originally wanted a Vita, but man, there isn't really anything on that system I actually care about yet, seems like. :(

[Nathan]

I bought one for myself and my fiancee a couple of weeks ago, and we're liking them though admittedly there's not a whole lot that I'm excited about right now, as I'm mostly into the RPGs that were on the DS.

I'm definitely getting Etrian Odyssey 4, and we'll probably be playing Animal Crossing whenever it releases. She's having a blast with Harvest Moon 3D: Plant Crops n Shit, but it's not quite my bag. I'll try again IF a new Rune Factory comes out.

I think I'll get Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor Overclocked in the meantime. I love the SMT games because they're like Pokemon but with more murder.

[Crater]

Mr. Freak, I definitely agree with you on the eShop stuff. I caved once and bought PushMo, but it would take something absolutely amazing to get me to spend more money with their messed about licensing scheme.

As far as 3DS games, I really liked Kid Icarus, although it's tough to recommend. I found the game to be amazingly creative with a ton of content - but the controls almost broke the game for me. If you can find a cheap copy, I think it's worth a shot to see if it clicks with you.

As far as the system itself goes, I don't regret stepping up to the XL - the extra screen size and larger control scheme made games far more enjoyable on it.

[CLWheeljack]

Not a lot of 3DS users around, eh? Well, I am getting a 3DS XL for Christmas this year (my DS died almost 3 years ago and I've missed having access to portable Mario and such) so I have been doing some digging on what games I can expect to get now, and what might be coming out.


My wife got me a 3DS XL for Christmas, partially to replace the one that she stole from me to play Style Savvy. I got to open it early since we're going to be traveling and she wanted me to have it for the plane.

I really do feel that, like the DS Lite, the XL is the way the 3DS was really supposed to be. The bigger screen is great, the buttons feel better, battery life is better, etc.

I have an embarrassing number of games for the original DS, and consider it possibly the best system of all time. In comparison, the 3DS is just ok, but it's got some decent stuff on it.

The big secret about the 3DS is the eshop stuff, which has some decent titles, that are basically impossible to find out about. Stuff that I've picked up:
PushMo: sort of a block-pushing puzzle game. Hard to explain, just look at screens.)
Shantae: Risky's Revenge: a sequel to an old platformer from Wayforward, released on DSiWare. It isn't amazing, but is pretty solid, and I didn't have a way to play it previously.
Sakura Samurai: A little samurai third person fighter. Cute, very Nintendo-y.
Guild01 collection: Three games (AeroPorter, Crimson Shroud, Liberation Maiden) released as a single collection in Japan (with a 4th game, which wasn't translated). They're all pretty decent, being a puzzle game, weird hardcore table-top-style RPG, and 3D shmup, respectively.

There are some indie standbys that were ported as well, like Cave Story, VVVVVV, and Bit.Trip

I've also heard good things about Denpa Men, but I haven't picked it up yet.

As for standard cartridge games, Theatrhytm:Final Fantasy is good, Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars is good, and I enjoyed Kid Icarus (although it has some control issues, and is, above all else, very weird to play). The Mario franchise games are exactly what you expect. But they're fine.

I have played, but can't recommend, Rhythm Thief, and Tales from the Abyss.

I'll probably pick up the new Paper Mario, Code of Princess, Rayman Origins, and the new Layton eventually. Plus whatever else Atlus releases.