Red Dead Redemption - Spoiler Thread!

[Sean Hargraves]

I thought I beat the game.

This happened more than once.

First time was right after Dutch killed himself. I was surprised when the game kept on going, but had a feeling something bad was coming.

Then, I thought the game was over when John was killed and was surprised to play the game as Jack.

Next, I found a stranger mission which fed Jack's appetite for revenge. Finally, the credits rolled.

I liked the newspaper edition after the final story mission though I had hoped to have read something about the MacFarland's. They were good people.

So has anyone uncovered any cheat codes or easter eggs yet?

[razarok]

Not completely through the game yet, but I didn't see Johns death coming. I had a bit of a bad feeling after the game continued after the death of Dutch... but nothing like that.

edit:
Done. That final duel was very satisfying. All six shots right in the face.

Now I'm hoping they will go the GTA IV route and make some DLC episodes.

[antifood]

Can you finish side quests after the credits roll?

[razarok]

As far as I saw (didn't play rdr today) you can just go on after the credits end or you press (X) to cancel them.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Wow. Just - wow.

I know there have been other games where main characters have died, but not many, and this one got me a little. Didn't expect that. I did like the continuity with Jack, tho. And yea - it was nice to plug ol Ross in the head a few dozen times. Too bad I couldn't have offed his family and let him know about it before he bought it. Fuckwad.

[Papageno]

Aargh, I managed to F up the big revenge mission. Does it come back at some point?

[Adree]

Aargh, I managed to F up the big revenge mission. Does it come back at some point?

Eh? Even if you fail the duel it should start you right at Chuparosa.

[Adree]

Can you finish side quests after the credits roll?

You can, Jack even has a ton of dialogue (he sounds young but remember this is only 3 years after John dies.)

[Papageno]

Eh? Even if you fail the duel it should start you right at Chuparosa.

What happened was that I had almost gotten to the final confrontation with Ross (as in, I was already near or in the purple area of the map), and I saw a cougar or bobcat or something slinking around in the brush, so I shot at it, and the game promptly informed me that I'd failed the quest.

So, in a case like that, do I get a do-over?

[Adree]

What happened was that I had almost gotten to the final confrontation with Ross (as in, I was already near or in the purple area of the map), and I saw a cougar or bobcat or something slinking around in the brush, so I shot at it, and the game promptly informed me that I'd failed the quest.

So, in a case like that, do I get a do-over?

Man I have no idea, did you reload the save or barring that leave the area and camp and come back?

[razarok]

What happened was that I had almost gotten to the final confrontation with Ross (as in, I was already near or in the purple area of the map), and I saw a cougar or bobcat or something slinking around in the brush, so I shot at it, and the game promptly informed me that I'd failed the quest.

So, in a case like that, do I get a do-over?

Have you tried suicide?

[Papageno]

Hmm, I guess I could get Jack killed and see what happens. I still have a hard save just in case from before the last couple of plot missions.

OK, having Jack throw himself from a cliff in Plainview just locked up my 360 on reload.

[lordkosc]

Completed the main story tonight , overall completion of 81%.

The Stranger Mission called " I KNOW YOU" , was that the devil John was talking to ?

The last time you see him , is where your grave is eventually located.

[BigRedCat]

John Marston had been a squeaky clean reformed hero. How would his son carry on his legacy? Well, first he donned the US Marshal outfit, so that all of his revenge would be under the auspices of justice.

Upon contacting Mr. Ross' wife and receiving word of his location, Jack Marston proceeded to hogtie her. While she struggled, Jack firebombed her house and killed her horse. Jack then cut her free...only to lasso her again and drag her into her own firepit, where she burned alive.

Mr. Ross' brother was contacted on a bright summer day, and after a short conversation, Jack Marston hogtied him. Firebombed the camp. Left him struggling, tied....no on second thought, bent over and relieved the man's misery with his blade.

Mr. Ross was probably the luckiest, the pain from the bullets to his groin, stomach and chest was quickly alleviated by the five bullets to his head.. Jack Marston found that the high power pistol that the very same Mr. Ross has given to his father held the exact number of bullets he needed to finalize his brutal revenge.

The games title is apparently misleading.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

John Marston had been a squeaky clean reformed hero. How would his son carry on his legacy? Well, first he donned the US Marshal outfit, so that all of his revenge would be under the auspices of justice.

Upon contacting Mr. Ross' wife and receiving word of his location, Jack Marston proceeded to hogtie her. While she struggled, Jack firebombed her house and killed her horse. Jack then cut her free...only to lasso her again and drag her into her own firepit, where she burned alive.

Mr. Ross' brother was contacted on a bright summer day, and after a short conversation, Jack Marston hogtied him. Firebombed the camp. Left him struggling, tied....no on second thought, bent over and relieved the man's misery with his blade.

Mr. Ross was probably the luckiest, the pain from the bullets to his groin, stomach and chest was quickly alleviated by the five bullets to his head.. Jack Marston found that the high power pistol that the very same Mr. Ross has given to his father held the exact number of bullets he needed to finalize his brutal revenge.

The games title is apparently misleading.
I like the approach. Only problem is, you can't tell Ross about what you did so he suffers a little before his demise.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Completed the main story tonight , overall completion of 81%.

The Stranger Mission called " I KNOW YOU" , was that the devil John was talking to ?

The last time you see him , is where your grave is eventually located.
I wondered about that. Just the devil letting John know his due is coming. Never noticed about the last encounter being on the future gravesite. That's pretty cool.

[Rod Humble]

I never saw the stranger. I figure thats because when I played him John Martson was a good man.

Jack on the other hand...well...he aint a nice man at all.

[lordkosc]

no , I also played John as a good guy, and Jack as his evil revenge seeking son.

[Papageno]

Does anyone else think that the dude playing Jack is trying a little too hard with the horse commands? Some of them really grate, like "work ya there, nag!"

[Adree]

Does anyone else think that the dude playing Jack is trying a little too hard with the horse commands? Some of them really grate, like "work ya there, nag!"

Yeah, although most of his other dialogue (and he has a lot of it!) is fine. He strikes me as the utter opposite of his dad in that John was usually calm while Jack feels he has to shout things and prove that he's as good as his dad.

Also he's saying "work ya damn nag"

[BigRedCat]

I like the approach. Only problem is, you can't tell Ross about what you did so he suffers a little before his demise.

I agree. I tried killing his brother in front of him and simply disarming him to let him live with the murders, but both ended in failure!

As a side note, can you still buy the paper after getting 100%? I forgot to buy it and they never seem to be selling it anymore. Might be because it was raining though.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

That is not how I expected the ending to go. After I got back to the ranch I was of course expecting the other shoe to drop, but I thought Abigail and Jack would get killed, and John would go on a bloody path of revenge, throwing over whatever redemption he may have gained.

I managed to screw up the final Dead Eye scene too. Shot one lousy guy. John should have gone out better than that.

[Sean Hargraves]

I managed to screw up the final Dead Eye scene too. Shot one lousy guy. John should have gone out better than that.

Yeah, it caught me by surprise when it happened. Thought I was still in a cut-scene. Only managed to kill 3 of the bastards.

[Dufresne]

I managed to screw up the final Dead Eye scene too. Shot one lousy guy. John should have gone out better than that.

Same here. I squeezed RT right away instead of hitting RB. Third-level dead eye has got me like that on more than one occasion. Though when the dead eye dropped I at least winged another guy.

There's always the mission replay, though.

[Papageno]

Funny thing is, I aimed for the guy that looked like Ross, but I guess his double must have come on the raid that day. :-).

[Guido Jones]

I never saw the stranger. I figure thats because when I played him John Martson was a good man.

Jack on the other hand...well...he aint a nice man at all.


The "Devil" stranger is the only one that can't be completed after ending the game - but he shows up no matter what (first encounter is looking from on top of a cliff in Hennigan's Stead).

[Guido Jones]

I liked the newspaper edition after the final story mission though I had hoped to have read something about the MacFarland's. They were good people.


Supposedly the ambiant dialogue at their Ranch has people saying Bonnie got married somewhere between 1911-1914.

[Enidigm]

Bonnie and John's relationship reminds of a line from one of Tsvetayeva's poems (i can't rem which) that says "The strong never mate with the strong". I was sort of hoping his family wasn't going to be there, at the end.

[Harkonis]

Same here. I squeezed RT right away instead of hitting RB. Third-level dead eye has got me like that on more than one occasion. Though when the dead eye dropped I at least winged another guy.

There's always the mission replay, though.


did anyone manage to aim at Ross in that scene? pretty sure he was there on the left, but I started on the right and sadly only had 6 shots. I kept thinking if only I had my Evans Repeater I'd be able to live. :)

[Glycerine]

Finished this last week and absolutely loved it. The story seemed kind of hokey, but I really liked the characters. My only complaint would be that you can't keep playing John after the end of the game, but Jack did eventually grow on me. After spending the entire game playing John, it was sad to see his end. It did make the last stranger mission much more satisfying. With Jack I've started working on collecting outfits, the US Marshall being my first. It was pretty easy, you just have to hit all US gang hideouts in one 24-hour period. I'd also like to get the Legend of the West outfit, but haven't started on any of the challenges yet.

I think I downed 4 or 5 of them in the last dead eye sequence. I didn't pay much attention to how many shots I had, but I did think it was more than 6. I guess I was assuming since I had the high powered pistol equipped, that's what I would be using. I thought about going back and replaying it again, just to see if I could get all head shots. Since it won't change anything, at least major, I don't have much motivation to try.

[Kurdel]

A few final thoughts on the game :

-The end sequence was amazing. It's a pity the main confrontation with Dutch and Williamson were so anti-climactic.

-I would have preferred them to cut mexico in half length-wise, and make more Jack missions at the end. Make him run around the entire game world one last time looking for the agents.

- Rockstar COMPLETELY missing the opportunity for best ending credits ever award. How about interactive riding into the fucking sunset? The most clichéd cowboy ending would have been the best for this game.

-By far the best moments in this game were the songs. Such a small detail will prove to be the second most remembered thing about this game (second to the character switch).

[Dufresne]

Bonnie and John's relationship reminds of a line from one of Tsvetayeva's poems (i can't rem which) that says "The strong never mate with the strong". I was sort of hoping his family wasn't going to be there, at the end.

The long, drawn-out shot of Bonnie idly kicking the dirt while watching John ride out of her life forever, with his wife at his side, is heart-wrenching. You can tell how much it's hurting her, as though the only reason she isn't collapsed in the road and sobbing is that she's such a strong woman in the first place.


The end sequence was amazing. It's a pity the main confrontation with Dutch and Williamson were so anti-climactic.
That may have been partly intentional, as if to emphasize that Dutch, Bill, and Javier were simply the means to an end. On the other hand, if that was the case, it was taken too far. Chasing after Dutch after storming his base was one of the lowest points of the game. Shoot lantern, watch a cutscene, run through a tunnel, watch another cutscene, climb a couple of ladders, repeat until victory. Lame.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

Mexico was definitely dead time. I liked the New Austin stuff, and I liked the West Elizabeth stuff, but the vast majority of the Mexico missions could have been cut entirely.

The mission givers are a big part of this - Marston really has no motivation to work with just about everyone down there, and they're all so cartoonishly malevolent that it strains credibility that he'd go along with them.

This was a problem throughout the game, but in other areas John's motivations were much better established.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

The long, drawn-out shot of Bonnie idly kicking the dirt while watching John ride out of her life forever, with his wife at his side, is heart-wrenching. You can tell how much it's hurting her, as though the only reason she isn't collapsed in the road and sobbing is that she's such a strong woman in the first place.Some DLC where you play as Bonnie would be awesome.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

The long, drawn-out shot of Bonnie idly kicking the dirt while watching John ride out of her life forever, with his wife at his side, is heart-wrenching. You can tell how much it's hurting her, as though the only reason she isn't collapsed in the road and sobbing is that she's such a strong woman in the first place.
Yea, I felt for her during that scene. I'll have to look for a newspaper after the storyline is over this time through and/or listen to the ambient dialogue at the ranch. Hopefully, that bunch of pixels married someone decent and not Amos or whoever she mentions in passing in one of the earlier missions.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

One other thing on the last mission. I am kind of disappointed how Ross didn't explain things. I mean, if he wanted John dead, why not kill him after Dutch was dead? Why let him go back to his family, especially given that they weren't exactly gung-ho to take out the wife and son as well?

OTOH - the whole 'explaining yourself' is a bit cliche, and this is probably more 'realistic' in that sense, so I can see why they did it that way. But sometimes, things are cliche for a reason.

[Brakara]

Mexico was definitely dead time. I liked the New Austin stuff, and I liked the West Elizabeth stuff, but the vast majority of the Mexico missions could have been cut entirely.

The mission givers are a big part of this - Marston really has no motivation to work with just about everyone down there, and they're all so cartoonishly malevolent that it strains credibility that he'd go along with them.

This was a problem throughout the game, but in other areas John's motivations were much better established.

Well, he really had no choice if he was to get any clues to Williamson's whereabouts. But I agree that the story kinda dragged out a bit in Mexico. But, on the other hand, I thought most of the actual missions there were great so I didn't really mind that much.

[Union Carbide]

did anyone manage to aim at Ross in that scene? pretty sure he was there on the left, but I started on the right and sadly only had 6 shots. I kept thinking if only I had my Evans Repeater I'd be able to live. :)

I was looking for Ross too, I managed to hit his "social secretary" I think. At least the body on the ground looked a lot like him, and he wasn't standing around afterwards.

[Guido Jones]

I was looking for Ross too, I managed to hit his "social secretary" I think. At least the body on the ground looked a lot like him, and he wasn't standing around afterwards.

According to the wikia, Archer isn't present at the final battle.

[Rod Humble]

By the way did anyone ever figure out "Eva in peril"? It felt like I missed an opportunity for explanation there as I shot the dude (couldnt disarm him). Anyone else get a different result?

[Adree]

Supposedly the ambiant dialogue at their Ranch has people saying Bonnie got married somewhere between 1911-1914.

Even though I really liked Abigail and John/Abigail had great chemistry together that last scene with Bonnie is so sad. Especially the way that last shot lingers.

[Hawkeye Fierce]

By the way did anyone ever figure out "Eva in peril"? It felt like I missed an opportunity for explanation there as I shot the dude (couldnt disarm him). Anyone else get a different result?I don't think there's anything to explain. Like many of the stranger missions, it's just sort of a "huh" moment.

[Rod Humble]

I don't think there's anything to explain. Like many of the stranger missions, it's just sort of a "huh" moment.

Pity, I wanted to know more.

[Adree]

By the way did anyone ever figure out "Eva in peril"? It felt like I missed an opportunity for explanation there as I shot the dude (couldnt disarm him). Anyone else get a different result?

There is no other result, this was just another mission to remind you that some people can't change and that getting involved sometimes makes things worse.

[Sean Hargraves]

By the way did anyone ever figure out "Eva in peril"? It felt like I missed an opportunity for explanation there as I shot the dude (couldnt disarm him). Anyone else get a different result?

I thought it was just John helping out a prostitute because his wife used to be one. Or am I thinking of a different stranger mission?

[Papageno]

I thought it was just John helping out a prostitute because his wife used to be one. Or am I thinking of a different stranger mission?

No, that's the one.

I really wish they had done some kind of tragic ending where John didn't die (like maybe his family had gotten killed in the raid), complete with revenge mission and riding off into the sunset. It would be a great setup for a sequel.

BTW, unrelated: did anyone try fording the river at the point where you eventually drive the cattle before "officially" opening up that part of the map in the SP game? Or is it unfordable at that point?

Oh, and Xbox freezeup-wise, I had the one I mentioned above when I had Jack end it all, and the other one (well-documented and observed by others) where the game crashes if you get arrested while wearing the poncho.

[Dufresne]

There is no other result, this was just another mission to remind you that some people can't change and that getting involved sometimes makes things worse.

Kind of a misguided message when the game doesn't give you a choice but to get involved. Killing the guy from the start would probably have made everything turn out pretty well for the girl, but doing that fails the mission.

See "The Wronged Woman" mission for another example of the game forcing a "bad" ending by forcing the player to kill a wrongfully accused man, then implying that you were "duped" into doing so.

[Rod Humble]

Thanks all, hmm. Ah well.

Btw I did think Johns wife put into good context his "Those days are over" lack of frolicking with the prostitutes in the game. A nice touch and wink to the GTA past from R* imho.

[Papageno]

Kind of a misguided message when the game doesn't give you a choice but to get involved. Killing the guy from the start would probably have made everything turn out pretty well for the girl, but doing that fails the mission.

See "The Wronged Woman" mission for another example of the game forcing a "bad" ending by forcing the player to kill a wrongfully accused man, then implying that you were "duped" into doing so.

I didn't get that feeling at all-- I think that the widow at the graveyard was blissfully unaware of her late husband's extracurricular activities.

[BleedTheFreak]

I didn't get that feeling at all-- I think that the widow at the graveyard was blissfully unaware of her late husband's extracurricular activities.

Then you should read the final notes in the stranger section of your journal... :)

[Drastic]

Very satisfying conclusion, especially when I did the final duel with the mauser machine pistol. I'm pretty sure that was ten bullets to the face, then the rest into his chest for good measure. Good distance on the body's flight backwards into the river from it.

I'll place my mark on this here form rating the Mexico contacts the low point in the game, for reasons well covered. Most of that should have been slashed in favor of seeding more stranger tasks throughout the game.

For my armchair design druthers, I also would have made the wildlife just a mite less utterly psycho-rabid. As it was, when John's teaching his son how to hunt, the dialogue was off. Instead of "the key to hunting is patience" it should have been, "Them books might tell you the key to hunting is patience, but boy that just ain't true. What you do is just ride around, and most animals will just fling themselves at you begging to die!"

[Talisker]

If I were broke and needed some cash in New Austin, I'd wait for some suitably vigilante looking guy to ride past, at which point I'd run up and say "Help! That guy stole my horse!", point at poor random sap on his way out of town, then sit back and wait for my free horse.

[krayzkrok]

Yeah, although most of his other dialogue (and he has a lot of it!) is fine. He strikes me as the utter opposite of his dad in that John was usually calm while Jack feels he has to shout things and prove that he's as good as his dad.

Also he's saying "work ya damn nag"

My wife, who's been playing this game solidly for the past couple of weeks, just came into the room and declared she was ready to punch Jack. In the face. Repeatedly.

Now, my wife is not known for violence, but she hates that she's now been forced to play this "fuckwit" after enjoying role-playing John Marsden. I mean, she'd fire up the game and play poker for hours, but she hasn't touched it since. She was quite keen on continuing with the proposed DLC until today, but apparently if it stars Jack she's done with the game.

I haven't played RDR yet (so yeah, thanks for the spoilers my dear...!) but I thought I'd throw this out there.

[Guido Jones]

Pity, I wanted to know more.

As mentioned, there are some notes in the "Strangers" section of the stats page, but unfortunately it's mostly just a downer. You bought her freedom, her pimp came for her and she went with him. He then killed and buried her.

[Rod Humble]

As mentioned, there are some notes in the "Strangers" section of the stats page, but unfortunately it's mostly just a downer. You bought her freedom, her pimp came for her and she went with him. He then killed and buried her.

Oh 8( Thanks.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

As mentioned, there are some notes in the "Strangers" section of the stats page, but unfortunately it's mostly just a downer. You bought her freedom, her pimp came for her and she went with him. He then killed and buried her.
How do you get notes on a stranger job you've already finished?

[Drastic]

Stats screen, the Strangers section has summary notes on every stranger quest chain you've finished up.

[Dufresne]

I didn't get that feeling at all-- I think that the widow at the graveyard was blissfully unaware of her late husband's extracurricular activities.

Also, the widow mentioning that the girl was laughing at the husband's funeral seems somewhat at odds with the girl's anguished reaction when you told her he was dead, no?

[lordkosc]

So out of the 20 or so stranger missions ( I think there were 20)

My top 3 favorites were :

I know you ( the devil follows Marston around watching him )
Deadalus and Son ( the flying guy 8D )
Flowers for a Lady ( come have tea with is wife!!! )

http://reddead.wikia.com/wiki/Strangers

[Dufresne]

My top 3 favorites

In terms of cutscenes, I assume, and in that sense I agree. "Deadalus and Son" and "Flowers for a Lady" were possibly the worst two stranger missions in terms of gameplay though, as they were both just collection quests.

Besides "I Know You," which is far and away the best overall, I think my favorite was "Aztec Gold," since it's more treasure hunting, and I really liked the treasure hunting challenges. I was also a fan of "American Lobbyist," since you get to keep the pictures afterwards, and they're pretty funny.

For reasons explained, my least favorite stranger was "The Wronged Woman."

[Guido Jones]

Also, the widow mentioning that the girl was laughing at the husband's funeral seems somewhat at odds with the girl's anguished reaction when you told her he was dead, no?

Read the strangers page in stats as suggested - the notes indicate that you were duped into stealing money from the man.

[Dufresne]

Kind of a misguided message when the game doesn't give you a choice but to get involved. Killing the guy from the start would probably have made everything turn out pretty well for the girl, but doing that fails the mission.

See "The Wronged Woman" mission for another example of the game forcing a "bad" ending by forcing the player to kill a wrongfully accused man, then implying that you were "duped" into doing so.


I didn't get that feeling at all-- I think that the widow at the graveyard was blissfully unaware of her late husband's extracurricular activities.


Then you should read the final notes in the stranger section of your journal... :)


Also, the widow mentioning that the girl was laughing at the husband's funeral seems somewhat at odds with the girl's anguished reaction when you told her he was dead, no?


Read the strangers page in stats as suggested - the notes indicate that you were duped into stealing money from the man.
Um, yes, I know. I asked rhetorically.

[lordkosc]

In terms of cutscenes, I assume, and in that sense I agree. "Deadalus and Son" and "Flowers for a Lady" were possibly the worst two stranger missions in terms of gameplay though, as they were both just collection quests.

Besides "I Know You," which is far and away the best overall, I think my favorite was "Aztec Gold," since it's more treasure hunting, and I really liked the treasure hunting challenges. I was also a fan of "American Lobbyist," since you get to keep the pictures afterwards, and they're pretty funny.

For reasons explained, my least favorite stranger was "The Wronged Woman."

yes I meant by story , not the work involved.

[Guido Jones]

Um, yes, I know. I asked rhetorically.

Hey my bad - your response was to the original question and not one of the follow ups pointing the stats page thing out, so I assumed you were yet one more person that missed it.

[Dufresne]

Hey my bad - your response was to the original question and not one of the follow ups pointing the stats page thing out, so I assumed you were yet one more person that missed it.

Sure, just that I was the one who brought up that you were "duped" in that mission in the first place. Can't point too many fingers though; I'm also occasionally guilty of not reading the names behind the posts I read.

[Aleck]

Anyone have suggestions on how to beat the final marksman challenge (shoot 6 guns out of folks' hands without reloading)? My problem is that Marston seems to auto-reload the gun as soon as I stop shooting.

[Guido Jones]

Anyone have suggestions on how to beat the final marksman challenge (shoot 6 guns out of folks' hands without reloading)? My problem is that Marston seems to auto-reload the gun as soon as I stop shooting.

You have to keep the weapon out - if he puts it on his back it'll auto-reload. I got this one fairly easily by doing one of the gang hideouts in San Pariso. Just keep hitting left trigger every 2-3 seconds (even without a target to shoot at)

[Talisker]

Anyone have suggestions on how to beat the final marksman challenge (shoot 6 guns out of folks' hands without reloading)? My problem is that Marston seems to auto-reload the gun as soon as I stop shooting.
Use up all your ammo except one clip's worth. Then save in case you screw things up and need to try again :)

[Dufresne]

I ended up doing the final marksman challenge in the story mission where you take the professor to meet Dutch's gang. A few guys camp out behind cover pretty close to the cabin you're in, and I just shot the guns out of their hands over and over. They'd pick it up, and I'd shoot it away again. It was pretty funny, actually, and a lot easier than I expected. Plus, Marston doesn't put his gun away if you're in cover, so you only need to hit LT when you actually want to shoot.

Also, use dead eye, but that should be obvious.

[BigRedCat]

Use up all your ammo except one clip's worth. Then save in case you screw things up and need to try again :)

This is unnecessary. If you use your Mauser for instance, just keep LT held, and he will reload constantly during Deadeye. This doesn't count against the challenge either. So you can face dozens of enemies and use up a hundred bullets trying for the challenge as long as you don't reload manually.

[Adree]

You can do cheat at poker six times in a row and get it that way too.

[madkevin]

Finished it yesterday - what a great ending! Makes me realize how few good endings there are in videogames, but the way they handled the entire last third of the game in West Elizabeth was masterful.

Seriously, what great, great game.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

I still would like to know the motivation behind letting Marston enjoy his life for a couple days, a week, whatever it takes to get through the family missions before invading and killing John - I mean, why wouldn't Ross just kill John after he took his gun to shoot Dutch - but other than that, I agree with you.

[Papageno]

Even someone like Ross might feel inordinately scummy shooting John in that cutscene, what with the facts that he just helped take down Dutch, and that the other guy (Fordham?) was standing there.

I thought the plot might end tragically in a different way, with John's family getting killed in the raid, but with him eventually getting together with Bonnie. Dramatically, though, the way it ended made more sense--the Governor had to boost his crime-fighting cred by taking down the one remaining member of the gang, and leaving John alive wouldn't have solved that/tied up that loose end.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Maybe. It did cross my mind that Fordham being there had something to do with it - especially given that he wasn't part of the raid that killed John.

Regardless, it's still Rockstars best storyline to date, I think. I understand why John was killed, just not why he was left alive for as 'long' as he was once Dutch was gone. Even still, doesn't detract from a great story.

[madkevin]

I understand why John was killed, just not why he was left alive for as 'long' as he was once Dutch was gone. Even still, doesn't detract from a great story.

Maybe Ross is such a stone-cold bastard that he wanted Marston to have a taste of happiness before he killed him. Or maybe he just wanted to lull Marston into a false sense of security to make it easier to get the jump on him.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Wow. I thought the Marshall's uniform would be harder to get. 24 hours to clear all US strongholds. Took me 9.

[Papageno]

Wow. I thought the Marshall's uniform would be harder to get. 24 hours to clear all US strongholds. Took me 9.

So, which are the U.S. Strongholds? The ones that respawn?

Fort Mercer
Gaptooth Breach Mine
That place north of Armadillo with the two tall rocks out in front to the sides (don't remember the name) where the rancher's daughter is being held hostage.
Tumbleweed
Pike's Basin

and? Am I forgetting one?

[jemann]

Yep, those are the five.


That place north of Armadillo with the two tall rocks out in front to the sides (don't remember the name) where the rancher's daughter is being held hostage.
Twin Rocks, strangely enough.

Getting 100% is much less tedious than most GTA games (less tedious! wow!), although doing all the bounty locations is a grind.

[Kalle]

Maybe Ross is such a stone-cold bastard that he wanted Marston to have a taste of happiness before he killed him. Or maybe he just wanted to lull Marston into a false sense of security to make it easier to get the jump on him.

Could just be that he got new orders from on high and that leaving the last gang member alive was no longer an option because the governor now wanted a clean sweep.

Ross was a complete bastard but he was a practical bastard. I'd like to think he wasn't just toying with John.

Not that that stopped me from killing his wife and tossing a fire bottle at their house when I came looking for vengeance.

[jemann]

BTW, unrelated: did anyone try fording the river at the point where you eventually drive the cattle before "officially" opening up that part of the map in the SP game? Or is it unfordable at that point?
I just tried it with an older save (right after Fort Mercer), and it killed me and my horse stone dead. So yeah, unfordable.

Great end to the game, but I'm sick of working through story missions for people who are either stringing me along or are obviously going to turn on me. Rockstar have turned it into their own special cliche.

[Papageno]

One of the first mods I hope and pray comes out for the inevitable PC version is a "John Marston Resurrection Mod" that lets you continue playing as John.

[Adree]

Could just be that he got new orders from on high and that leaving the last gang member alive was no longer an option because the governor now wanted a clean sweep.

Ross was a complete bastard but he was a practical bastard. I'd like to think he wasn't just toying with John.

Not that that stopped me from killing his wife and tossing a fire bottle at their house when I came looking for vengeance.

What I like to think is that he actually did plan to let you live for the meantime but since Marston was famous and he needed another big score to look good with his own higher-ups he went for the easy kill.

[Royal Fool]

Just finished it myself, loved the ending and pretty much everything else about the game. Haven't found that last stranger mission for Jack that you're talking about, however.

[Adree]

Just finished it myself, loved the ending and pretty much everything else about the game. Haven't found that last stranger mission for Jack that you're talking about, however.

Go to the Blackwater rail station.

[Royal Fool]

Yeah, found it shortly after I posted that.

[Ryan Markel]

The credits just rolled for me.

Thoughts:

I totally didn't expect John to die. I suppose in hindsight it was very logical that it ended up that way, but I was certain that they were going to have something awful happen to his ranch or to his family, but not to John himself. That was pretty shocking, and I have to say it affected me emotionally more than most games do. I'd invested quite a bit into the persona of John, and to have him gunned down like that was a bit of a shock. (Also: I hate the government now.)

I am completely in agreement with what's been said earlier: Mexico was too long, while the vengeance arc with Jack at the end could have been drawn out more - have him meet the characters that have changed, not just read about them in the newspaper. That was very 80's-movie-character-montage-at-the-end. John's motivations in Mexico weren't enough motivation, and he didn't strike me as the kind who would have bothered with the types he was hanging around with.

Rockstar is just plain evil for having all of the ranching missions after John is reunited with his family. For those who might not play games very often, it might seem weird, but for myself, who was expecting some kind of awful thing to happen at the end, it was stretching out to the point of feeling completely foreboding. I knew the other shoe was going to drop, and the suspense just kept on going and going.

IMO this game had a better-than-your-average-video-game portrayal of women, with the exception of Luisa, who was annoying and frustrating. Hell, the characterization in general was amazing - but more so in the US than in Mexico. The Marshal, Bonnie (especially Bonnie), even the gang members you were sent to take down were done very well and voiced very well also. The final scene with Bonnie was quite sad and so well-animated.

Smaller things:


When dueling as Jack, apparently he will mention that he was taught by Ricketts. Did anyone else catch that?
The final "I Know You" scene being at the gravesite is creepy.
I remarked to my wife once or twice that Irish jamming his gun down his pants was a great way to shoot yourself. Guess I was right.


tl;dr - Great game, among the best I've played. Can't wait to see if they end up doing another one, though I don't know how they'd pull it off.

[Adree]

The credits just rolled for me.

Thoughts:

I totally didn't expect John to die. I suppose in hindsight it was very logical that it ended up that way, but I was certain that they were going to have something awful happen to his ranch or to his family, but not to John himself. That was pretty shocking, and I have to say it affected me emotionally more than most games do. I'd invested quite a bit into the persona of John, and to have him gunned down like that was a bit of a shock. (Also: I hate the government now.)

I am completely in agreement with what's been said earlier: Mexico was too long, while the vengeance arc with Jack at the end could have been drawn out more - have him meet the characters that have changed, not just read about them in the newspaper. That was very 80's-movie-character-montage-at-the-end. John's motivations in Mexico weren't enough motivation, and he didn't strike me as the kind who would have bothered with the types he was hanging around with.

Rockstar is just plain evil for having all of the ranching missions after John is reunited with his family. For those who might not play games very often, it might seem weird, but for myself, who was expecting some kind of awful thing to happen at the end, it was stretching out to the point of feeling completely foreboding. I knew the other shoe was going to drop, and the suspense just kept on going and going.

IMO this game had a better-than-your-average-video-game portrayal of women, with the exception of Luisa, who was annoying and frustrating. Hell, the characterization in general was amazing - but more so in the US than in Mexico. The Marshal, Bonnie (especially Bonnie), even the gang members you were sent to take down were done very well and voiced very well also. The final scene with Bonnie was quite sad and so well-animated.

Smaller things:


When dueling as Jack, apparently he will mention that he was taught by Ricketts. Did anyone else catch that?
The final "I Know You" scene being at the gravesite is creepy.
I remarked to my wife once or twice that Irish jamming his gun down his pants was a great way to shoot yourself. Guess I was right.


tl;dr - Great game, among the best I've played. Can't wait to see if they end up doing another one, though I don't know how they'd pull it off.


I would have loved more of Dutch, they definitely seem to have rushed the 3rd chapter (but thankfully fully fleshed out the "4th" homecoming stuff). There's not even any real hideouts in New Elizabeth (although I imagine the upcoming DLC might address that somewhat).

Although I may be misremembering I thought he says that "my pa was taught by Landon Ricketts", either way he has a ton of lines considering playing as Jack is essentially "bonus content". He's got some rough delivery in spots but I like the whole concept of the son carrying on in his father's footsteps (for better or worse.) I like that he favors his mother far more than his father in looks as well.

I thought Bonnie was kind of hackneyed until the barn fire, the end shot of her looking sullen was just outstanding. I also loved the scene with John's wife and the telegraph.

[Ryan Markel]

I kind of expected more post-game discussion on this one for some reason.

Still working on the ambient challenges and the last stranger missions myself. I don't like Jack as much as John, even though I know it's purely aesthetic.

[Horrible Oscar]

Watching A Fistful of Dollars before playing RDR really threw the problems in Mexico into sharp relief for me. I know John wasn't particularly interested in getting involved, but considering that he eventually ends up right in the middle of everything it would have been nice for him to go in with some kind of plan instead of getting pushed around by everybody until it turns out that the two men he wants are conveniently found in strategic locations the rebels are taking over anyway.

It's not even that he doesn't deal with selfish and smallminded crooks in other regions, because he does. But at least when you're getting pushed around by the Bureau you know he doesn't have a choice, and when you're setting up the attack on Fort Mercer it's you running after West/Irish/Seth and bullying them into action instead of just passively taking orders. The missions for Ricketts and Luisa were all I enjoyed in Mexico because they felt like the only ones Jon had some kind of real motivation for.


I didn't quite realise there was another stranger mission left after Jack takes over, so I shut off the console there until a friend clued me in. In retrospect, I liked ending the game more without the throwaway duel at the end. The suggestion that Jack fell into a gunslinger's life without a full understanding of what his father did or why struck me as a very bitter touch that you don't often see in games, and leaving the ending open and aimless like that would actually be pretty fitting for a sandbox game.

[Adree]

I didn't quite realise there was another stranger mission left after Jack takes over, so I shut off the console there until a friend clued me in. In retrospect, I liked ending the game more without the throwaway duel at the end. The suggestion that Jack fell into a gunslinger's life without a full understanding of what his father did or why struck me as a very bitter touch that you don't often see in games, and leaving the ending open and aimless like that would actually be pretty fitting for a sandbox game.

It struck me as more like all the government did was create more outlaws in their effort to kill them all. Of course just because Jack became like his post-Dutch's Gang father doesn't mean he has to be a criminal. I do agree that it wasn't necessary to have that duel and I was disappointed you couldn't just disarm the guy and leave him the old wretch that he was but it was a good way to show you that some years have passed since John died.

[Dave Markell]

Still working on the ambient challenges and the last stranger missions myself. I don't like Jack as much as John, even though I know it's purely aesthetic.

Don't worry, no one does. His voice is the biggest problem. That, and his "Work you damn nag" line.

[Papageno]

I don't like his looks either. He's got beady eyes. I almost want to just go back to the save before the last mission and just have John wander off and abandon his family so I can keep playing as him.

[armand v]

90%+ completed single player, opinions:

-the one time a non talking, remorseless main character woulda totally fit and instead they insert a googly eyed nerd herder who speaks often and unnecessarily. Harmonica or the Man with No Name is perhaps cliché for Western films but I would've liked to have seen it for this great game, establishing him across a different medium. The only time I got a true Western vibe from Red Dead was from the character named Landon Ricketts and perhaps van der Linde.

-John getting shot both at the very beginning(Ft Mercer) and at the end were stupid because he made himself completely vulnerable. If he's just facing his fate, shoulda been more evident. I mean, he's sincerely trying to shoot a dude who's behind cover, way up while he's an absolute sitting duck for multiples.

-Mexico was amazing and loved how all this revolutionary coup d'état stuff was happening all around. I wish the climax(es) were there, not boring, already established many hrs ago America.

-in terms of fun, I found recent sandboxers Assassin's Creed 2, Red Faction and Saints Row 2 to be better. In terms of an 'unforgettable experience', I found it only slightly behind Assassin's Creed 2.

-still, a fantastic game overall, I think the $100 million cost is justified and I have only had a few hrs in multiplayer(and intend to put many more into).

[extarbags]

Finished the story today, and while the game is pretty good overall, the story is just nonsensical in a lot of places, often to the point of frustration. And the ending? Jesus, so dumb. So, so dumb. You can't do this, developers. You can't have the main character die in a cutscene doing the same thing I, the player, have done countless times already. And what the hell, he sends his wife and kid out the back of the barn, but he has to go out the front... why? Why can't he go out the back, sneak around, and pick them off? I've killed more people than Stalin in this game, Rockstar, do not make me watch my guy get slaughtered stupidly.

Apart from which, why did they even want him dead? Nobody bothers explaining. I enjoyed the Western badassery in this game, but it's sure not the triumph of storytelling that I've actually heard some people make it out to be.

[madkevin]

Apart from which, why did they even want him dead? Nobody bothers explaining. I enjoyed the Western badassery in this game, but it's sure not the triumph of storytelling that I've actually heard some people make it out to be.

To each his own and all that, but:

Plotwise, there's a number of reasons John is killed. He's the last member of an infamous outlaw gang, for one thing. For another, it's not like he's exactly innocent of any number of crimes. So if you're trying to clean up the West and present it as a place of law and order, doesn't make a lot of sense to have this killer hanging around the place, especially as he's proven himself to be extremely dangerous.

Thematically, John is killed because the West he came from and embodies is dead. The West needed to be settled by men like John, but now that "civilization" is here, he's no longer necessary.

[extarbags]

To each his own and all that, but:

Plotwise, there's a number of reasons John is killed. He's the last member of an infamous outlaw gang, for one thing. For another, it's not like he's exactly innocent of any number of crimes. So if you're trying to clean up the West and present it as a place of law and order, doesn't make a lot of sense to have this killer hanging around the place, especially as he's proven himself to be extremely dangerous.

Doesn't add up for me. He's not known there anyway, and he's not a criminal anymore, and he's fulfilled the conditions of his release. He's just another rancher at that point, both in reality and in perception by anyone they're trying to sell this image of the West to.


Thematically, John is killed because the West he came from and embodies is dead. The West needed to be settled by men like John, but now that "civilization" is here, he's no longer necessary.

Well yeah, that wasn't exactly subtle (Although it's not exactly fully-baked either; the West needed to be settled by murderous bandits? Really? The game makes a lot of hay out of this "oh the poor ranches, their way of life is vanishing" stuff, but John's been a rancher for about a week by the time he gets killed.). But it's not enough for these things to work thematically; they have to work practically as well. So big bad John Marston, struggling rancher, gets murdered by twenty soldiers a few minutes after he successfully fights through his two hundredth wave of twenty-soldiers, when there's a clear escape route available? Whatever, Red Dead Redemption. That ending is as bad as Fallout 3's (SPOILERS AHEAD), for the same basic reason: whoever was in charge of the story thought it would be cool and dramatic to have the player's character die at the end, and they just put it in, regardless of how much or little sense it made.

[extarbags]

Oh, and here's what's wrong with Remember My Family, the "real ending:"

1. It's short and unsatisfying. I originally expected this to be the basis for an entire chapter of the game, and when it wasn't I was sure it would be a DLC. Imagine that: Jack Marston roaming the countryside, chasing down leads, checking up with old characters and seeing how they've changed while he hunts the men who set up and eventually killed his father. Could have been awesome. Cramming that into one measly side quest is pretty weak.

2. Like so much of this game, it sets up interesting open-ended gameplay and story possibilities and then doesn't see them through. First you meet some world-weary fed who admires the guy's reputation, and you're like "whatever dude, you don't even know him." Then you meet his wife, who just wants to enjoy her twilight years with her husband in peace. Then you meet his brother, a genuinely nice guy who cherishes the relationship he has with your quarry. I felt sorry for those two, and I wanted to have a choice of what to do next and maybe some meaningful interactions. But no, the guy just mouths off and then you have a duel, the end. So what was the point of this? Why make a bunch of NPCs usher me between the purple areas on my map? This was a problem throughout this game and it's a problem in the GTA games as well, but it especially stood out here.

[Dave Markell]

So big bad John Marston, struggling rancher, gets murdered by twenty soldiers a few minutes after he successfully fights through his two hundredth wave of twenty-soldiers, when there's a clear escape route available?

Yeah, that bugged me a lot too. I personally would never have opened those barn doors to buy my family time to escape. I'd reason (correctly) that three seconds of point blank gunplay was a vastly inferior choice to running, hiding, sniping, or pretty much any other possible option. Like you said, they decided John had to die, so the game hopped on the railroad to oblivion.

[armand v]

John decided he had to die. That's the only way they'd leave his family alone.

[ydejin]

John decided he had to die. That's the only way they'd leave his family alone.

That's my interpretation as well. He figured as long as he was alive they'd track him down and his family might die in the crossfire, so it was better to end it.

[Kalle]

Exactly. If John hadn't faced those soldiers head-on at the barn he'd have to life life as an outlaw forever, he'd have to make his family outlaws. Yes, he could have killed those men and lived to tell the tale. But John's story wasn't about being the baddest outlaw in the west, it was about wanting a better life for his family. He sacrificed himself so that they could live in peace.

[extarbags]

Except the only guy in the entire world who cared about taking down old John Marston was standing out there in the yard. He kills him, problem solved.

[Krakkadoom]

Except the only guy in the entire world who cared about taking down old John Marston was standing out there in the yard. He kills him, problem solved.

I don't know, I definitely had the impression there were orders coming down from higher up. I don't think had the fed died at the barn it would have ended.

[ydejin]

Except the only guy in the entire world who cared about taking down old John Marston was standing out there in the yard. He kills him, problem solved.

And the bureau behind him is just going to accept one of their agents being killed? Besides doesn't the game imply in a couple of places that the whole crime crackdown is coming down from the governor's office for political reasons? Politically having agent Ross gunned down and not getting his killer is not going to fly.

[Edit] Too slow -- yeah what Krakkadoom said.

[armand v]

He killed perhaps 50 other men in this last standoff. I'm certain many care. John Marston is on the minds of many and they are not happy thinkings.

[Dave Markell]

Oh, I get that John decides to die to protect his family. He still should have chosen a SLOWER way to die, to give said family more time to get away. What if the army had still been there when Jack and Abigail returned? I was frankly amazed that they weren't--they vacated much too quickly there, given how many dead and/or wounded there were that needed treatment or burial. But again, the plot on rails dictated that they left instantly, so they left instantly.

[Aleck]

2. Like so much of this game, it sets up interesting open-ended gameplay and story possibilities and then doesn't see them through. First you meet some world-weary fed who admires the guy's reputation, and you're like "whatever dude, you don't even know him." Then you meet his wife, who just wants to enjoy her twilight years with her husband in peace. Then you meet his brother, a genuinely nice guy who cherishes the relationship he has with your quarry. I felt sorry for those two, and I wanted to have a choice of what to do next and maybe some meaningful interactions. But no, the guy just mouths off and then you have a duel, the end. So what was the point of this? Why make a bunch of NPCs usher me between the purple areas on my map? This was a problem throughout this game and it's a problem in the GTA games as well, but it especially stood out here.

Another niggling point: I had purchased a newspaper long before I found the guy who starts that quest series off. In the newspaper, it mentioned that Ross had taken up residence down by the lake, so I went down to the lake, pistol drawn, ready to smoke his ass. Nothing. The house was completely empty.

Three game days later, after getting the quest, it's occupied.

Such a great game, but with some really serious immersion breaking issues.

[armand v]

Another niggling point: I had purchased a newspaper long before I found the guy who starts that quest series off. In the newspaper, it mentioned that Ross had taken up residence down by the lake, so I went down to the lake, pistol drawn, ready to smoke his ass. Nothing. The house was completely empty.

Three game days later, after getting the quest, it's occupied.

Such a great game, but with some really serious immersion breaking issues.That's exactly what I would expect to have happened, I guess my standards for gaming are very low. What have you been playing?

[wigglestick]

That's exactly what I would expect to have happened, I guess my standards for gaming are very low. What have you been playing?

I told my friends (that aren't playing RDR, and who usually aren't at all interested in GTA-style gameplay) that game worlds are starting to go through their own sort of uncanny-valley-like growing pains. RDR is a good example to my mind. Everything, from the way the grass and scrub blows in the wind, to the way that clouds cast shadows over the prairie, to the way that a stagecoach bumps and creaks and jostles over the train tracks, is so ridiculously life-like that the aspects of the world that still seem game-like really stick out.

[Aleck]

That's exactly what I would expect to have happened, I guess my standards for gaming are very low. What have you been playing?

By and large, I haven't -- the last "big" game I played was Call of Pripyat, which was pretty great in a number of immersive ways.

Anyway, I would think that reading it in the paper would get the set pieces ready, but I guess you need to have the quest first. *sigh* It just really broke immersion for me.

Another immersion breaker -- in the final quest, looking for Ross, I heard a shotgun down below me on the river bank. I took out my Carcano and scanned the bank, finding Ross about 100 yards away. Then, before I could even shoot him, I failed the quest because I sighted on him. *sigh*

[Dave Markell]

I told my friends (that aren't playing RDR, and who usually aren't at all interested in GTA-style gameplay) that game worlds are starting to go through their own sort of uncanny-valley-like growing pains. RDR is a good example to my mind. Everything, from the way the grass and scrub blows in the wind, to the way that clouds cast shadows over the prairie, to the way that a stagecoach bumps and creaks and jostles over the train tracks, is so ridiculously life-like that the aspects of the world that still seem game-like really stick out.

Hmmm. That's quite insightful. I'd never really looked at it that way before.

[Moggraider]

Such a great game, but with some really serious immersion breaking issues.

Yeah, you gave a good example, and I saw others.

Another problem was the herding; a couple times cows or horses would refuse to leave the wrong area. This was especially frustrating in the end series of missions; I had to intentionally fail twice by shooting uncooperative cows.


I beat this game last night. I wish the last series of missions wasn't just Bonnie's series over again :). The limited time frames for mission starts was dumb, too. Sometimes the game would tell me my family member wasn't there when he clearly was.

[Jon Rowe]

I actually really liked that the last couple missions were on the ranch with Jack and Abby. Very cool, and it made the ending of the game more impactful.

Also.. make sure you do the final stranger mission.

Best. Ending. Ever. So satisfying. (Though, I thought that maybe that territory could have made a great sequel, the whole confrontation, and freeze frame at the end was amazing. Well done.

Other than that, aside from all of the heavy handed dialogue and stereotypically awful characters (this is a rockstar game), this has to be one of the best games I have played in a long while. The pacing was pretty bad in some places, and some of the dialogue is just poorly written, but damn the entire time spent in West Elizabeth is just great. The final mission with Dutch was just awesome. Great ending to that storyline.

The only problem with the game is really that it had that awful Rockstar taint. Everything was a tragedy. I pretty much knew exactly what was going to happen in every stranger mission (I just thought of the worst possible outcome). Did Dan Houser listen to a lot of Pantera in his room as a kid? Uggh. Other than that though, the main characters were all pretty fun, and I felt really attached to John Marston most of the time, which made the ending so shocking for me. (Though I saw it coming). I thought maybe they were going to kill off family members or something. (Once they had missions with your son and wife) But no, John did what he had too.

Did anyone else murder the FBI dudes wife? I had to. I felt obligated. (Hint, shoot the lamp on the porch, much more satisfying) The whole game basically taught me that in the world of RDR, you need to take what you want, or someone else will. If I was going to kill the FBI dude, the wife and brother had to go too. No witnesses.

I also went to the office in Blackwater... but you can't get upstairs. Darn it.

Such a great ending. I really hope that Rockstar can get their act together though, because they almost ruined the game for me.

[Brian Rucker]

Another niggling point: I had purchased a newspaper long before I found the guy who starts that quest series off. In the newspaper, it mentioned that Ross had taken up residence down by the lake, so I went down to the lake, pistol drawn, ready to smoke his ass. Nothing. The house was completely empty.

Three game days later, after getting the quest, it's occupied.

Such a great game, but with some really serious immersion breaking issues.

Interesting. I saw the same thing and did the same thing and...nothing. So he does show up at some point later on? Good to know.

I think the idea behind the ending has more to do, as with most of the gameplay/plotpoints and even NPCs, as a homage to Western films. What's the best remembered ending of any Western movie? Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So that big finale makes sense if you're looking at this game as a love letter to the genre rather than a realistic simulation of "what this guy should have done". I agree it can be a bit jarring to know you could have taken all these guys if some scriptwriter hadn't tied your hands because, well, you've done it before.

For me the good of Red Dead Redemption outweighs the bad. The level of feeling and authenticity in the graphics and animations and, especially, audio just bring that place and this character to life. Will I ever get tired of hearing the creaking leather of my horse's tack or a pistol getting unholstered?

I'd like Rockstar to head more into fully dynamic gameplay and away from narrative myself. RDR wasn't terrible but it really didn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially the pseudo-deep expositions and discussions. For all the realism of the RDR's world little that many characters did made much sense to me. At the best we'd have some amusing banter but at worst we'd have very shallow, if verbose, ruminations that said and did little for the story or for provoking much thought.

[Andrew Mayer]

Finally "finished" this last night.

Really amazing in a lot of other ways.

Like a lot of other folks here, I found the ending missions to be agony, knowing that the other shoe would eventually be dropping...

[PeterK]

Did anyone else see Marshal Johnson in the group of men that kill John? I thought I saw him in the cutscene, but maybe it was just a character model that looks like him.

[Enidigm]

Is there a way to restart the game from the beginning? I'd like to try an evil character this time.

[armand v]

Is there a way to restart the game from the beginning? I'd like to try an evil character this time.I was thinking to do the same, but I don't believe it makes much of a difference, not like a Fallout3.

[mrmolecule88]

Finally finished this on my day off. I agree with the great ending everyone is talking about, and how this game definitely has all the marks of being a Rockstar game...but RDR really worked for me, a lot more than GTA4 ever did. I think it was because the setting comes with very different expectations for a city (I liked a couple of the snarky articles in the newspaper talking about how big cities were becoming) as opposed to what we might expect from a wide-open desert.

I really like the way Rockstar played with what we've come to expect from them - a couple of times, I'd be expecting one thing, and then things would be entirely different. Dutch's was one of those times for me. An absolutely silly, ridiculous, end-boss behind an armored-up machine gun? The villain who has tried to kill me multiple times and shot a woman in a face? And I don't even get to shoot him? Great subversion. Although, when Ross borrows John's gun to shoot the corpse, I would have sworn that he was going to frame John for it. Somehow. Or something like that, I don't know.

The other thing I remember was the last mission with Macdougal, as they're discussing how to get out of the hotel. "What are we going to do?" "I'm going to hand you over to them and watch them tear you from limb to limb." "What?!" "Just kidding." Loved it.

[Telefrog]

Umm, seriously, mrmolecule88? We have a spoiler thread.

[Talisker]

Umm, seriously, mrmolecule88? We have a spoiler thread.
Psssst -- look at the thread title.

[Andrew Mayer]

The non-spoiler spoiler thread.

It's somehow fitting for this game.

[Dr. Quasius]

Umm, seriously, mrmolecule88? We have a spoiler thread.

You dumb.

[Telefrog]

Awesome. I spoiled myself by confusing the threads.

Fuck.

[Dr. Quasius]

Awesome. I spoiled myself by confusing the threads.

Fuck.

You dumb.

[PeterGinsberg]

Finally finished tonight.

Loved the atmosphere of the game, thought the overall story was typical of rockstar -- terribly uneven.

But the last act was fantastic. The tension while doing all those ranch missions, knowing something terrible must be coming, and anticipating disaster on each of the missions. Easily the best game story telling I've seen from Rockstar.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Well that was a disappointment.

Great idea for an ending, wasted on a story and characters that did everything they could to disengage me from start, which also ends up souring my time in what's otherwise one of the most beautiful and atmospheric settings.

I loved doing almost everything except the actual missions. I probably would have had a better time with a game with no plot at all, just more ambient challenges and outfits to unlock, or something.

I made it as far as the end of the first act before I was skipping the incidental dialog every chance I could. I'd still watch the cutscenes, but any time I was on some wagon listening to someone yammer on I was hitting A to skip as soon as possible. Aside from all the problems you guys have covered with the motivations for working with all these ridiculous characters, all the back and forth dialog felt completely wrong.

I wish I'd written down a good example, but any time it was back and forth between John and whoever he was riding with, they couldn't go more than a few sentences before someone completely flipped their personality, undermined the point they were just making, or otherwise said something that sounded totally wrong for the dialog that immediately preceded it. It always felt incredibly unnatural and totally erased any investment I had in these characters. It sounded just short of completely randomly generated banter.

[Andrew Mayer]

I wish I'd written down a good example, but any time it was back and forth between John and whoever he was riding with, they couldn't go more than a few sentences before someone completely flipped their personality, undermined the point they were just making, or otherwise said something that sounded totally wrong for the dialog that immediately preceded it. It always felt incredibly unnatural and totally erased any investment I had in these characters. It sounded just short of completely randomly generated banter.

I'm glad I didn't play the same game you did.

[Jazar]

Got the credits to roll yesterday. Phenomenal game. Really enjoyed every minute of it. The story arc is excellent and lightyears above most games out there. Sure the narrative suffers due to lengthening the gameplay but it really comes together in the end.

Amazing characters. John Marston. Bonnie McFarlane. Drew mcFarlane. Leigh Johnson. London Ricketts. Vincente de Santa. Dutch Van Der Linde. Abigail Marston. Strong & believable characters that fit perfectly in the world they're in.

The missions were a lot of fun. Controls much better then GTA4. I've complained many times how Niko controls like a boat. Marston turns tighter and doesn't walk into walls half as much. The ragdoll physics make the game. Watching guys fall off their horse or dangle off their saddle never got old. Played with expert aiming. Dead Eye was a bit of a crutch but without it things would've been way too frustrating given the odds.

Graphics were simply jaw dropping. The art style made each sunrise/sunset look like a painting. Insane draw distance. Varied locations. Every area teeming with life.

The only large complaint I have is what everyone else has. The mexico missions were far too aimless and made John look like a fool. Rockstar needs to stop going the do-boy route. Characters should take more control of their fate instead of following orders. I think the complaints would've been easilly assuaged if players had a choice in either siding with the rebels or the Mexican army. At least that way it wouldn't have made Marston such a tool.

My small nagging complaint is that the dueling mechanics were stupid. For a western, duels should be exciting and challenging but what we got was a confusing mess.

All in all it's by far my favorite game of the year so far. What we need next is a prequel with you being a part of Dutch's gang. I think there's a lot of story to be told there.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Got the credits to roll yesterday. Phenomenal game. Really enjoyed every minute of it. The story arc is excellent and lightyears above most games out there. Sure the narrative suffers due to lengthening the gameplay but it really comes together in the end.

Amazing characters. John Marston. Bonnie McFarlane. Drew mcFarlane. Leigh Johnson. London Ricketts. Vincente de Santa. Dutch Van Der Linde. Abigail Marston. Strong & believable characters that fit perfectly in the world they're in.

The missions were a lot of fun. Controls much better then GTA4. I've complained many times how Niko controls like a boat. Marston turns tighter and doesn't walk into walls half as much. The ragdoll physics make the game. Watching guys fall off their horse or dangle off their saddle never got old. Played with expert aiming. Dead Eye was a bit of a crutch but without it things would've been way too frustrating given the odds.

Graphics were simply jaw dropping. The art style made each sunrise/sunset look like a painting. Insane draw distance. Varied locations. Every area teeming with life.

The only large complaint I have is what everyone else has. The mexico missions were far too aimless and made John look like a fool. Rockstar needs to stop going the do-boy route. Characters should take more control of their fate instead of following orders. I think the complaints would've been easilly assuaged if players had a choice in either siding with the rebels or the Mexican army. At least that way it wouldn't have made Marston such a tool.

My small nagging complaint is that the dueling mechanics were stupid. For a western, duels should be exciting and challenging but what we got was a confusing mess.

All in all it's by far my favorite game of the year so far. What we need next is a prequel with you being a part of Dutch's gang. I think there's a lot of story to be told there.
I wish I played the same game you did.

[armand v]

I didn't play either of the games you two did-I played something in between.
Did anyone else play another game?

[Union Carbide]

http://i49.tinypic.com/21kc6s3.jpg
To John Marston. God rest the soul of that poor whoreson bastard. . . and pussy's half price for the next 15 minutes.

[Jazar]

Awesome

[ArrowOfFortune]

Best ending story arc in the last few years for me. What an awesome game.
The association of John's lifestyle and how the West is changing, and then it all reverts back when his son turns out to be like his Dad was when he was young.... so good.

My money is on a prequel showing how John ran with his old gang, and how it fell apart and he rebuilds his life... until the Feds take his family.

[walTer]

Best ending story arc in the last few years for me. What an awesome game.
The association of John's lifestyle and how the West is changing, and then it all reverts back when his son turns out to be like his Dad was when he was young.... so good.


Now I don't need to type all that. Wow, was that just fantastic. Absolute satisfaction with the ending. Heh, I, like many of us I assume, just stumbled across the REAL ending. I was moseying about and happened to notice a ? on the map that was seemingly new. Oh I was so happy.

How many of us replayed the final gun battle (4 times here) trying to kill Ross? Heh.

The only thing I would have liked to have seen Bonnie to tell her about John. (I assume that is not possible?)

edit- read the bits about Bonnie-still it would have been nice to be able to chat with her at least.

[ydejin]

The only thing I would have liked to have seen Bonnie to tell her about John. (I assume that is not possible?)

edit- read the bits about Bonnie-still it would have been nice to be able to chat with her at least.

That would have been neat. Good idea walTer.

[ChiTownBluesFan]

Now I don't need to type all that. Wow, was that just fantastic. Absolute satisfaction with the ending. Heh, I, like many of us I assume, just stumbled across the REAL ending. I was moseying about and happened to notice a ? on the map that was seemingly new. Oh I was so happy.

How many of us replayed the final gun battle (4 times here) trying to kill Ross? Heh.

The only thing I would have liked to have seen Bonnie to tell her about John. (I assume that is not possible?)

edit- read the bits about Bonnie-still it would have been nice to be able to chat with her at least.
Agreed, but I'm sure she knew about what happened to Marston - it was in the paper after all, and I got the impression she could read. Or, I'm assuming it made the paper, given that it was listed in the story on what's-his-face retirement as an accomplishment in the paper you could buy in the epilogue.

[bloo]

Why do some think the "I Know You" stranger was the devil? He could just as easily be god. As I recall, the language the stranger used was always neutral of the outcome, "I know you'll do the right thing", "Set <whoever> on the right path", etc.

Did anyone notice what is written on the inside of the roof in the barn at Beecher's Hope?

"Oh my son
My blessed son."

I wonder if it was for something that got cut?

[Union Carbide]

It's a cheat code. They're all over the place.

[Hans Lauring]

I never saw the stranger. I figure thats because when I played him John Martson was a good man.

Jack on the other hand...well...he aint a nice man at all.

Yeah, that was me too.
John never killed an innocent (except those he was duped into by the games writers), but although I knew he was going to die... and then not because the farm missions lulled me into a sense of security, his death made me royally pissed.
That agent in Blackwater? 15 bullets... and the resulting police were mowed down. Ross' wife? Bullet to the face. His brother, shotgun. And Ross got the full 15 rounds from Jacks inherited Luger.


Funny thing is, I aimed for the guy that looked like Ross, but I guess his double must have come on the raid that day. :-).

Yeah, I knew he was dead, so I just wanted to take Ross with me and shot him in the face several times. Cheats.

[Pogue Mahone]

I only just beat the game today, pardon my tardiness on this one. I really enjoyed this game, even more than I expected to. I think what I appreciated most, or possibly equally as much as the opportunity to play a gunslinging outlaw, was how many surprises RDR had for me. Early on in the game I was certain we were being set up to put John and Bonnie together, what with John's family only getting passing mention up until the G man missions where they came to the forefront and then finally turning up as family missions! Nice way to subvert expectations, the reformed outlaw who remains true to his family.

I can understand those of you who feel the game lost its way once we got to Mexico but personally I appreciated the change in tone and scenery. Being part of le revolucion (yeah, grade school Spanish there) was a kick for me.

But I disagree with those of you who don't appreciate the game's climax. Sure, Marston is physically capable of shooting his way through the entire U.S. army if necessary, but that's beside the point -- his entire way of life is dying. The G men weren't operating on their own authority, there was a governor on the periphery of several missions who probably wanted this entire episode put behind him, and who knows what behind him. You can't fight city hall, after all. Of course John was completely willing to put his guns down and live out his life in peace, but he would have always been a loose end (and cannon) without a check next to his name in the ledger. So in the name of the public good, a dangerous man was put down and good civilized people could sleep a little safer.

[walTer]

So in the name of the public good, a dangerous man was put down and good civilized people could sleep a little safer.

It felt good to kill Ross, yes...

[mrmolecule88]

Tell me I'm not the only that stood on the bank and shot his bullet-ridden corpse until it finally inched it's way into the water. Please. Tell me.

[Enidigm]

Anybody not kill Ross? Is there a way to keep him alive?

[Adree]

Anybody not kill Ross? Is there a way to keep him alive?

Don't do the mission. And then go cut off your balls.

[Tom Chick]

It's a failure of Rockstar's imagination and writing chops that they hard-coded Ross's death into the game.

Although Ross was conveniently painted as an asshole villain, there's an argument to be made that he was an effective law enforcement officer, along the lines of Little Bill in Unforgiven. But's that's far too much nuance for Rockstar.

Or is it? Because it's worth going back to Niko's key decision about resolving his own past in GTA4. Rockstar let us choose. Not that it had much impact on the way the story stupidly unfolded into a goomba slaughterfest. But it made me think that someone, somewhere in the halls of Rockstar appreciates a different take on redemption than shooting the bad guy in the face.

As such, I would have liked it if Rockstar had let the player acknowledge that Jack had the option for make a different life choice than his father made. It seemed to me that's the only titular redemption in the game. John dies and teaches his son that he was accountable for the sins he'd committed. He even has some great line to his son during the domestic missions about paying the price for what he's done.

Instead, Rockstar just caters to people who want to shoot the bad guy in the face. Cheap, easy, and a perfect example of how Red Dead Redemption is so much less than it could have been.

-Tom

[Adree]

It's a failure of Rockstar's imagination and writing chops that they hard-coded Ross's death into the game.

Although Ross was conveniently painted as an asshole villain, there's an argument to be made that he was an effective law enforcement officer, along the lines of Little Bill in Unforgiven. But's that's far too much nuance for Rockstar.

Or is it? Because it's worth going back to Niko's key decision about resolving his own past in GTA4. Rockstar let us choose. Not that it had much impact on the way the story stupidly unfolded into a goomba slaughterfest. But it made me think that someone, somewhere in the halls of Rockstar appreciates a different take on redemption than shooting the bad guy in the face.

As such, I would have liked it if Rockstar had let the player acknowledge that Jack had the option for make a different life choice than his father made. It seemed to me that's the only titular redemption in the game. John dies and teaches his son that he was accountable for the sins he'd committed. He even has some great line to his son during the domestic missions about paying the price for what he's done.

Instead, Rockstar just caters to people who want to shoot the bad guy in the face. Cheap, easy, and a perfect example of how Red Dead Redemption is so much less than it could have been.

-Tom

You don't seem to have understood what John being killed like that would do to his son. Yes, he was trying to teach him that being an outlaw was not the way to go while still making a man out of him but Ross put an end to that. As for shooting the bad guy in the face, that quest is optional and many people never even see it (unless they read spoiler threads.)

As for your trolling - cheap, easy, and a perfect example of how Tom Chick is so much less than he could be.

[Kalle]

Indeed. The choice of not killing Ross is there. You do it by not embarking on a fairly lengthy quest to hunt him down and shoot him in the face.

[Tom Chick]

As for your trolling - cheap, easy, and a perfect example of how Tom Chick is so much less than he could be.

http://www.adreefunny.com/greatgif.gif

-Tom

[Tom Chick]

Indeed. The choice of not killing Ross is there. You do it by not embarking on a fairly lengthy quest to hunt him down and shoot him in the face.

True enough, Kalle. But my point is that the game in no way acknowledges this choice, unlike the central choice you make as Niko in GTA4. It's as if it didn't even occur to Rockstar that there was any other way to "end" the game.

-Tom

[Enidigm]

Don't do the mission. And then go cut off your balls.

It's the possibility of a Road to Perdition ending, especially relevant since one of the Mysterious Stranger quests for John Marston seems to be the devil. John trying to save his son from becoming like him, which fails if you have Jack shoot Ross in the face.

[Pogue Mahone]

It seems that the story Rockstar was shooting for here was a train track-straight path to the end of the line, and that there never was any opportunity for John or Jack to avoid their fates. I guess since the game seemed to be aiming for tragedy this makes sense enough, and maybe the argument could be made that neither John nor Jack were allowed by forces outside themselves to choose any other fate, that the things that were most important to them were taken away and the only viable option was to react violently. But yeah, it would have been nice for a game with redemption in its title to offer the chance at some.

[Dave Markell]

Or, as I said earlier, at least a more sensible death. As John, I would have bought way more time for my family to escape by doing something, anything other than stepping out of those barn doors.

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually, that makes sense to me. The government only wanted John, they wanted to clear the ledger for Dutch's entire gang. I think John just told his family to clear out so they wouldn't have to watch him die.

[Andrew Mayer]

True enough, Kalle. But my point is that the game in no way acknowledges this choice, unlike the central choice you make as Niko in GTA4. It's as if it didn't even occur to Rockstar that there was any other way to "end" the game.

-Tom

It's the same conflict between narrative and choice as Bioshock, only played out on a much larger, and more lyrical, canvas.


It seems that the story Rockstar was shooting for here was a train track-straight path to the end of the line, and that there never was any opportunity for John or Jack to avoid their fates. I guess since the game seemed to be aiming for tragedy this makes sense enough, and maybe the argument could be made that neither John nor Jack were allowed by forces outside themselves to choose any other fate, that the things that were most important to them were taken away and the only viable option was to react violently. But yeah, it would have been nice for a game with redemption in its title to offer the chance at some.

I guess it depends on whether or not you feel that John has redeemed himself by the end of the story.

[HumanTon]

It seems that the story Rockstar was shooting for here was a train track-straight path to the end of the line, and that there never was any opportunity for John or Jack to avoid their fates. I guess since the game seemed to be aiming for tragedy this makes sense enough, and maybe the argument could be made that neither John nor Jack were allowed by forces outside themselves to choose any other fate, that the things that were most important to them were taken away and the only viable option was to react violently. But yeah, it would have been nice for a game with redemption in its title to offer the chance at some.

John got plenty of redemption in the one area where it mattered. That's why there was that extremely lengthy section featuring him with his family.

If the point of the game was that John didn't get his chance for redemption, they would have had the government agents kill him before he reunited with his family (which is what I half expected to happen.)

(Of course the government portrayed John as an irredeemable outlaw who needed killing, but the game dismisses this explanation.)

[Pogue Mahone]

Fair enough, HumanTon. I can agree with you that John may have gotten his redemption, if you want to call getting your family back over the corpses of your former comrades 'redemption'. But then to yank it all back by having his son pursue the way of life that John says several times that he desperately does not want his son to follow, that kind of invalidates any redemption he may have found, wouldn't you think?

[Dave Markell]

Actually, that makes sense to me. The government only wanted John, they wanted to clear the ledger for Dutch's entire gang. I think John just told his family to clear out so they wouldn't have to watch him die.

Sure, but consider: his family helps him fight off several waves of attackers, thereby committing various felonies themselves. Next, they return to the scene of his death literally minutes after it happens. Conveniently, everyone is gone, but that would never have happened in RL. There were literally dozens of wounded and dead to be cared for. Jack and Abigail would have ridden into an armed camp full of men they had just been shooting at. Not smart, not good.

[Pogue Mahone]

Ha ha, you got me Dave. I was totally disregarding all the polygonal puppets that John and his family had to shoot through in the moments leading up to his death. Man, maybe videogames really do de-sensitize people to violence.

[Dave Markell]

LOL, maybe. Anyway, that's why I would have tried to run/snipe/hide as long as I could if I had been John. His family needed time, and that's the one thing his death didn't give them.

[Andrew Mayer]

But then to yank it all back by having his son pursue the way of life that John says several times that he desperately does not want his son to follow, that kind of invalidates any redemption he may have found, wouldn't you think?

Jack has made his own choices. The choice to avenge his father is probably the one that dooms him.


It's an interesting twist on the noir/western convention of the doomed hero.

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, I agree it is interesting Andrew, and I actually don't hate the ending nor am I really bothered by the fact that Jack ends up gunning Ross down. I do think the narrative of the game presents this as a logical outcome, that the murder of his father and early death of his mother might turn him into a gub'mint hating outlaw. I guess I just get a little caught up on the irony of the game's title. Probably should be 'Red Dead Life's a Bitch and Then You Die'. But that doesn't have the same ring I guess.

[Andrew Mayer]

Yeah, I agree it is interesting Andrew, and I actually don't hate the ending nor am I really bothered by the fact that Jack ends up gunning Ross down. I do think the narrative of the game presents this as a logical outcome, that the murder of his father and early death of his mother might turn him into a gub'mint hating outlaw. I guess I just get a little caught up on the irony of the game's title. Probably should be 'Red Dead Life's a Bitch and Then You Die'. But that doesn't have the same ring I guess.

Well, it's not called "Happy Healthy Redemption".

[Pogue Mahone]

And you know what, there really wasn't all that much Red in the game either. I feel cheated.

[Andrew Mayer]

And you know what, there really wasn't all that much Red in the game either. I feel cheated.

You clearly didn't spend enough time in the start menu.

[Bahimiron]

I kind of agree with those disappointed with Rockstar's unwillingness to let you choose the ultimate fate of Jack and Ross.

The same way I'm sure they agree with me that it's a travesty that in BioShock 2 you can't just say fuck it to saving all those stupid Little Sisters and instead move to Pawtucket, RI where you open up an ice cream shop that specializes in the best chocolate malteds in New England and a raffle every Thursday in the summer for free Pawsox tickets.

[armand v]

Well if Jack turned out to be an outlaw, he certainly wasn't near the outlaw that his father was. Several years pass by from John's death to when you assume Jack and I don't remember any indication that he's an outlaw.
He doesn't ride with a gang or make a living robbing banks, coaches or trains. Appears he has a settled life, not one on the run.
Jack had a singular vendetta, added for the purpose of a dramatic narrative.
John's redemption is that his son has grown to be the man he wanted to be.

[Andrew Mayer]

Well if Jack turned out to be an outlaw, he certainly wasn't near the outlaw that his father was. Several years pass by from John's death to when you assume Jack and I don't remember any indication that he's an outlaw.
He doesn't ride with a gang or make a living robbing banks, coaches or trains. Appears he has a settled life, not one on the run.
Jack had a singular vendetta, added for the purpose of a dramatic narrative.
John's redemption is that his son has grown to be the man he wanted to be.

Let's see what the downloadable content ends up looking like.

I have a feeling that Jack's "settled life" is going to be short-lived.

[Rock8man]

I enjoyed going through this thread and reading everyone's take on the game. This is one of the reasons I love it when there is a spoiler thread. After finishing a game, it's easy to find different people's takes on the game, all gathered in one place, instead of having to hunt through a massive general purpose thread.

Anyway, most of you already covered what I wanted to express, so I'll skip all that. One thing I'd like to add is a positive effect of the Mexico portion of the game. Now, I've been a big critic of the middle portion of the game. From the moment that the McFarlan ranch and Sheriff missions stop in the first area, I thought the game turned into one giant borefest. The dialog was long and onerous and completely boring because I wasn't remotely interested in any of these people. This started with the grave-robber and Snake-oil salesman, and continued throughout the Mexico portion of the game. And as the game continued on it's lengthy, meandering, pointless journey, I became hungry for any kind of actual point to the game.

For a game that starts off very interestingly with the train journey out west, showing the march of technology and growing civilization into the Old West, it soon devolved into a pointless tirade about seemingly random things.

In the third act, the game comes together, but in a really ham-fisted way. In it we get direct dialog from a character about how he came out to the West to see civilization sooth the Old west, but he says to John Marston that what he found was that the West was just a bunch of people randomly killing one another, or words to that effect. Very ham-handed. Not subtle at all. The third act is full of dialog like this. And if that had happened in any other game, I'd be rolling my eyes. But in this game? After that first act and the second act in Mexico? I was thirsting for meaning and for the game to stop meandering and get to the point. So I present the theory to you that the second act in this game was meant to mold the player's state of mind into a place where subtlety was no longer desirable.

To be fair, the game still had its brilliant quiet moments when it came to character development. Most scenes with Bonnie McFarlane were brimming with subtext and subtlety. And then later so were scenes with Abigail. And I love that Rockstar sometimes expressed more with physical acting and body language than they did with dialog. So the game wasn't always over-the-top and ham-handed when it came to delivering its message. But even when it was, I welcomed it, because I was so relieved to be away from the chaotic noise that made up the second act.

As I said in the other thread, just like with Prince of Persia 2008, having an excellent ending elevated this game to a whole different level, and I'm willing to forgive many sins when I'm left with such a favorable expression at the end. Good memorable endings are rare in any art form, and I found this one to be truly great.

[Rock8man]

By the way, did anyone try not shooting at all in that final John Marston gunfight? When you go out to meet your fate and the game suddenly throws you into Dead Eye mode?

I'm a bit embarrassed that I never quite figured out Dead Eye mode in RDR. I had always assumed that I'd understand what was going on later in the game, but 'later' just kept getting postponed, and in the end I finished the game without really understanding the controls or meter or the whole system in general.

That didn't stop me from putting a lot of bullets in the head of the character right before the credits rolled though. I guess I didn't really need to understand the system to use when I absolutely had to.

[Rob_Merritt]

Finished last night. I found Red Dead Redemption simply amazing. I enjoyed every part of it. I even enjoyed Mexico. Initially I didn't like how the direction of the story at Beecher's Hope was going but once I saw how the ending of that segment was going to play out it made perfect sense why they choice to scale back the pace of the story.

I would argue that there was in fact Redemption in his bloody death. A redemption in spirit. The old west wasn't just a violent place where people killed each other and civilization was going to solve that. If anything civilization was more violent and without meaning. It is why the real ending played out the way it did. Edgar Ross was no more able to leave his former life than John Marston was. The player had no choice but Edgar Ross made that choice for the player ages ago.

RDR ended up being a near perfect story driven open world game. I don't know how any other open world game will ever compare to it.

[JeffL]

I am really torn on my feelings about RDR, now that I've had the benefit of time since I completed it.

The setting was superb. The game world in which you played was immersive, dynamic, it just felt "right."

Marston was a great character, and his personal story was well done, IMO. The classic Western Noir lead, he had a checkered past, did a lot of bad things, now wants to escape his history and lead a peaceful, productive life. He just wants his family, his farm, and to be left alone. The side plot with Bonnie was well done and surprisingly subtle in many ways.

The "random" encounters were frustrating and felt lazy. 8 Bazillion dollars in development, they could have provided some variety. Finding a stranded stranger in the desert or alongside the road feels right; him hijacking your horse EVERY SINGLE TIME is lazy and repetitive and boring. How hard would it have been to have, say, 20 simple variations on what the stranded stranger does? (tries to steal your horse, accepts a ride and is simply grateful when you drop him/her off, accepts your ride and then you find out, as a posse starts to chase you he's a wanted criminal, accepts a ride and then when you drop him off you find out he's a respected lawman who then, later in the game becomes an asset to you, etc.) Same for the woman with the "broken down wagon" on the side of the road, etc. These "random" encounters, intended to add interest and create a greater sense of immersion, did just the opposite.

Then Mexico. We've argued about this before, but suddenly you're taken completely out of character (for Marston) and you're willingly helping sleazy soldiers rape and pillage helpless villagers. There should have been at least a couple of decision points you could make and paths you could take here.

Back to the U.S., the story becomes solid again, and as much as I hated (and did not expect) Marston's death, I love how shocked and saddened I was as he fell dead. I half expected his wife and son to say "Wait, he's still breathing!" I love how the game had managed to create a character such that it reached me at a pretty strong emotional level when he died. It is not often a game event feels truly tragic, but this was one instance. And, afterwards, it felt "right" in the way that it should in a Noir style drama.

But I agree with Tom, there should have been a couple of paths the son could take. It would have been perfectly acceptable to have an ending in which he tracks down Ross, they talk, and one dialog choice has him recall his father's wishes for him, look at Ross, then simply say "Enough bloodshed. It's done." Then he rides off, and a cut scene shows him working on a farm, a small child named John Jr. at his feet, and his wife comes out to get him for dinner, and she looks a lot like Bonnie (some kind of reveal that it is Bonnie's daughter.) Corny but I haven't put any thought into it.

Or - he decides no more blood shed, rides off into the distance, Ross grins and chuckles and says something like "Yeah, I knew he didn't have it in him" and suddenly there's the sound of a rifle shot, he looks down at his chest in shock, sees a spreading blood stain, falls to his knees, then crumples and dies. Camera pans over to a view of Bonnie on horseback, rifle in hand.

Anyway - great game in so many ways, but it could have easily been a level above where it was.

[ydejin]

But I agree with Tom, there should have been a couple of paths the son could take. It would have been perfectly acceptable to have an ending in which he tracks down Ross, they talk, and one dialog choice has him recall his father's wishes for him, look at Ross, then simply say "Enough bloodshed. It's done." Then he rides off, and a cut scene shows him working on a farm, a small child named John Jr. at his feet, and his wife comes out to get him for dinner, and she looks a lot like Bonnie (some kind of reveal that it is Bonnie's daughter.) Corny but I haven't put any thought into it.

That would have been neat. They should have hired you guys damn it.

I actually didn't mind the random encounters. Yeah they were a bit repetitive, but not so repetitive that it bothered me.

[Enidigm]

The random encounters were there to have "something to do", a distinct lack of which was obviously present in GTA4. They could have been much better of course, but something to do is usually better than nothing to do.

[Jonathan Crane]

It is not often a game event feels truly tragic, but this was one instance. And, afterwards, it felt "right" in the way that it should in a Noir style drama.

But I agree with Tom, there should have been a couple of paths the son could take. It would have been perfectly acceptable to have an ending in which he tracks down Ross, they talk, and one dialog choice has him recall his father's wishes for him, look at Ross, then simply say "Enough bloodshed. It's done." Then he rides off, and a cut scene shows him working on a farm, a small child named John Jr. at his feet, and his wife comes out to get him for dinner, and she looks a lot like Bonnie (some kind of reveal that it is Bonnie's daughter.) Corny but I haven't put any thought into it.

Or - he decides no more blood shed, rides off into the distance, Ross grins and chuckles and says something like "Yeah, I knew he didn't have it in him" and suddenly there's the sound of a rifle shot, he looks down at his chest in shock, sees a spreading blood stain, falls to his knees, then crumples and dies. Camera pans over to a view of Bonnie on horseback, rifle in hand.


Just finished this last night and it was fantastic.

I have to disagree with you and Tom about the different paths / choices. The reason the game ending works so well is that there isn't a choice. Marston's fate is unalterable. This is what happens. Not just to John, but to Jack. "For the sins of your fathers you, though guiltless, must suffer." Jack absolutely does not have a choice (or a chance) here. Not only do you see the loss of John, but also the snuffing out of any hope that Jack might be his own man. The violence inevitably feeds on itself and perpetuates down the line.

Break this down, and have a multitude of endings, and you end up with 'choose your own adventure'. None of the multiple choice answers can be as satisfying, and you split your audience. 1/5 of us will be moved by the tragic ending (as you were), 1/5 enjoy the Marston / MacFarlane nuptials, 1/5 of us are pleased to see the gay marriage option and argue about how anachronistic, and how it breaks the realism, etc. etc.

The tragedy is that you want it to be one way. But it's the other way. And that's why this is one of the best endings in recent memory.

[Jonathan Crane]

By the way, did anyone try not shooting at all in that final John Marston gunfight? When you go out to meet your fate and the game suddenly throws you into Dead Eye mode?


To completely undermine my last post - I did this. The game clicked me into dead eye, and John drew, but didn't fire a shot. Didn't even point at anyone. Still died. For my Marston, he was done with killing. He finally, finally, finally - realized that other people's deaths were not worth any cause. That was his redemption.

(PS Tom and JeffL - see you guys did have a choice!)

[Papageno]

I just wish that they'd gone with a different (tolerable) voice actor for the adult Jack. John was voiced just right, but Jack I just wanted to slap.

[MrPerson]

I feel they dropped the ball with Jack, both on the voice acting and by making the remaining gameplay as Jack so short. I could have done with a couple less hours in Mexico and another hour really adding some depth to the coda. It's a beautiful concept and I loved it, but the execution was just a little off.

I especially want to slap him when he calls his horse a nag.

[Zeitgeist]

The game was generally too long I thought. Too many missions killing fools for crazy assholes.

And fuck mountain lions!

If John had never returned home, would Jack have followed in his footsteps as gunslinger? The hints are there for that not to happen (Jack reading books for example, only John teaching him how to hunt etc.).

[DrDel]

I finally got around to finishing this game. wow! what an ending (the original game, I havent played the DLCs yet -- I have the GOTY edition for Xbox).

I started playing multiplayer last night.. as level 1 I keep getting my butt kicked. Any advice on how to level quickly?

Also how do I get into the zombie DLC? I have the Undead Nightmare pack.. is there a single player DLC or what?

thanks

[Papageno]

IIRC when you fire up the game you can pick between regular RDR and the Undead Nightmare DLC.

[Rock8man]

Hey cool. Let's use this occasion to talk about this great game, complete with spoilers.

The first time I thought the game was drawing to a close was when they sent Marsden out to that boat. There was just something so mysterious about the circumstances, and it was so quiet, I smelled an ambush, possibly death for Marsden on that mission. But it wasn't. It kept going. And then later, in that scene where Marsden is overlooking the camp with the main bad guy? And Marsden gets knocked out? And the bad guy doesn't kill him? I was so unnerved by that. I had no idea what was going on exactly, but the music and the dialog and the expressions and the virtual acting was so effective. It was such a creepy scene. As the bad guy lay dying, his last words were so mysterious. I just didn't get it. Marsden didn't die after all. He won. Right?

But then what was the bad guy talking about? What was going through his head in that last mission? What did his last words mean?

All this was going through my head. I still expected some kind of trap as the Marshals apparently agreed to let Marsden go back to his family. But he did go back to his family. And the game kept going. My sense of unease kept gnawing at me with each passing minute. And yet.... it went on so long, I finally stopped worrying and started enjoying Marsden's time with his son. What was beyond his control was beyond his control. At least I could enjoy the current moment Marsden had with his family.

So when the end finally came, I was at peace with it. It really is a narrative turn, in terms of the emotions it put me through, that I've never experienced in a game before. And I really truly appreciated that. It makes it so easy to forget how much I hated the Mexico portion of this game.

[DrDel]

One of the parts of the game that will stick with me is the "I Know You" side mission where Marsden meets the mysterious man in all the different game regions throughout the game.

I know Rock* isn't owning up to the origin of this mysterious man.. I like the Satan theory where the man is believed to be the devil.

I also like the last encounter with the man where he says "This is a nice place" while standing out in the field which we later discover is the same spot Marsden gets buried.


---

Great game. Except.... how do we rationalize Marsden being alive during the Undead campaign? Is it all just a dream?

[Rock8man]

I still haven't played the Undead campaign, or loaded up, despite owning it. I dig it up every time Tom brings it up randomly on the podcast, and take it down to the living room, and then promptly forget about it again. Hey, what's this game doing in the living room? I should take it up to my closet, I've already finished this one.

[Tom Chick]

Hey, what's this game doing in the living room? I should take it up to my closet, I've already finished this one.

I obviously need to mention it more often. :)

So I'm serious about trying to get a gaggle of us to posse up and spend some time with this game online come January. I'd love to chip away at some of the achievements, and to play some of the zombie horde mode. Mr. 8man, don't put your copy back in the closet just yet.

-Tom

[Ryan Markel]

I obviously need to mention it more often. :)

So I'm serious about trying to get a gaggle of us to posse up and spend some time with this game online come January. I'd love to chip away at some of the achievements, and to play some of the zombie horde mode. Mr. 8man, don't put your copy back in the closet just yet.

I'd be up for this. The Undead horde mode is really fun.

[Jazar]

I obviously need to mention it more often. :)

So I'm serious about trying to get a gaggle of us to posse up and spend some time with this game online come January. I'd love to chip away at some of the achievements, and to play some of the zombie horde mode. Mr. 8man, don't put your copy back in the closet just yet.

-Tom

Sign me up!

[Rock8man]

I obviously need to mention it more often. :)

So I'm serious about trying to get a gaggle of us to posse up and spend some time with this game online come January. I'd love to chip away at some of the achievements, and to play some of the zombie horde mode. Mr. 8man, don't put your copy back in the closet just yet.

-Tom

As long as it's between January 1st and 10th, I'm in! (My wife come back to the country on the 11th, so I'll be out until next December).

Btw, I just played the first hour or so of Undead Nightmare. I was almost giddy with joy. I can't believe they spent this much effort on funny banter and cutscenes and voice acting for a zombie story. Go Rockstar San Diego!

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah Rock, you've made the right choice for zombie campaign if you we're deciding between this and Dead Island. Undead Nightmare is a fantastic campaign. I haven't tried the multiplayer though.

[Inverarity]

I'm dying to try this out in multiplayer, regular or undead campaign. Please sign me up!

[Rock8man]

I love the way John Marsden talks, even during the zombie apocalypse. His cadence, his matter-of-factness, it's all so great. I love how over-the-top the cutscenes are so far. Even during the zombie DLC, Rockstar can't resist doing their usual over-the-top pop culture and political commentary on American society.

From a gameplay perspective though, the zombies weave and bob a bit too much, and ammo is a bit too rare. What that means is that I end up using the torch almost 100% of the time. And here I thought it would be fun blowing away zombies with a shotgun. By making ammo so scarce and zombies only die with headshots, Rock* made that pretty impractical. It's a shame. Hopefully I'll find lots of hidden ammo caches of shotgun ammo somewhere and then I can finally have at them.

[Warning]

From a gameplay perspective though, the zombies weave and bob a bit too much, and ammo is a bit too rare. What that means is that I end up using the torch almost 100% of the time. And here I thought it would be fun blowing away zombies with a shotgun. By making ammo so scarce and zombies only die with headshots, Rock* made that pretty impractical. It's a shame. Hopefully I'll find lots of hidden ammo caches of shotgun ammo somewhere and then I can finally have at them.

I gave up after an hour or two for this reason. I wanted to blow zombies away with my six-shooter or shotgun, not scavenge for ammo and use my torch.

I think the expansion was a missed opportunity.

[Tom Chick]

Part of the "problem" with Undead Nightmares is that basic Red Dead Redemption does the aiming for you. The gunplay when you're up against zombies is so dramatically different from the core game that I can understand why someone would find it frustrating.

But that's the thing about zombie apocalypses: the rules change.

-Tom

[Rock8man]

I'm fine with the rules changing Tom. I just want some reassurance that at some point I'll start finding shotgun ammo.

There's just something about shotguns and zombies. They're a match made in heaven.

[Tom Chick]

Well, it is survival horror. If you had all the shotgun ammo you wanted, it would be just another shooter. :)

-Tom

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't remember ammo scarcity being a problem, but it's been a while, I may be fuzzy. I tell you it's worth it to complete Undead Nightmare just for the opportunity it affords you when you're done. Warning: spoiler following for both the main RDR and Undead Nightmare!

Being able to wander Texas as Zombie John Marsten is way too much fun to pass up, trust me.

[Jazar]

If you have auto aim on then it's easy win mode in the nightmare dlc I believe.

[Cobra]

Why the hell do you people call him Marsden? His name is John Marston.

[bmarinari]

Count me in for the online posse! Love this game.

[JeffL]

I loved RDR, but just could not get into the zombie expansion. Just wasn't the RDR world I loved.

[Papageno]

I loved RDR, but just could not get into the zombie expansion. Just wasn't the RDR world I loved.

It was quite different, but I really liked what they did with the lighting that gave everything a weird cast to it.

[DrDel]

I loved RDR, but just could not get into the zombie expansion. Just wasn't the RDR world I loved.

I hear what you are saying. I am sticking with it though... it is satisfying my RDR addiction.

RDR is the best 2010 game of the year for 2012 for me.. if that is even a justifiable award

Borderlands 2 is my 2012 GOTY

GTA 5 will probably be my 2013 GOTY

[Rock8man]

I obviously need to mention it more often. :)

So I'm serious about trying to get a gaggle of us to posse up and spend some time with this game online come January. I'd love to chip away at some of the achievements, and to play some of the zombie horde mode. Mr. 8man, don't put your copy back in the closet just yet.

-Tom

Hey so what happened with this Tom? Did I miss it? Did you get a posse together? How come this was never brought up again? It's the end of January! We've missed our window!

[Gladguy]

Hey, I'd be in for some hot posse action.

I finished the main campaign a couple weeks ago, and have been slogging through the zombie DLC. I don't quite "get" the multiplayer, though.

[quarryman]

Hey, I'd be in for some hot posse action.

I finished the main campaign a couple weeks ago, and have been slogging through the zombie DLC. I don't quite "get" the multiplayer, though.

likewise