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Kalle
09-25-2003, 05:58 AM
Yes, I'm a munchkin. I want to min-max feats and abilities to get the most kick-ass party imaginable. I know the basics, fighter, healer, rogue, mage, etc, but some more indepth suggestion would be a great help.

What I'm looking for is a discussion akin to that in the "Ultimate Powergaming Party" faq for Icewind dale 2 at gamefaqs (www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/15119.html).

Anders Hallin
09-25-2003, 06:04 AM
Hot elves.

Kalle
09-25-2003, 06:16 AM
Hot elves.

Why, do you have pics?

Anders Hallin
09-25-2003, 06:17 AM
No :(

olaf
09-25-2003, 09:17 AM
Well, it really depends how you are going to play the game, NPCs or no? Ironman?

I am playing Ironman currently and I have the following in my group. I put in the levels I am going to end up with, not their current level, which are 6/7th.

Dorf Fighter8/Barb2
HO Monk10
Human Rogue8/Fighter2
Human Sorc10
Human Cleric10
Elmo Fighter/Ranger NPC
Spugnoir Wizard NPC

As you can see I am using two NPCs, mostly because I dont want to lose on Ironman. I am also only using NPCs who dont burden themselves with looting items. Elmo just takes coins, and Spugnoir just takes scrolls. Elmo is damn good early, as he is 4th level and you can get him at 1st/2nd level. Spugnoir is pretty crappy combat-wise, but he starts with the Scribe Scroll feat and he obtains the Craft Wonderous item feat. Those help.

I like Humans for the extra feat. I love the improved initiative feat, everyone should end up with it IMO. I like Combat Reflexes a lot too. Power Attack/Cleave are good if you can afford them for all melees, but a must for the fighter. I dont really like great cleave as there are not that many opportunities to use it, especially in fights where you actually need it.

I love Sorcerors for not having to worry about having the right spell memmed. I also gave mine Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot so he is not totally gimped when it comes to non arcane combat contributions.

I took some Barb levels with my fighter for fast movement and rage. I use a two handed weapon, currently a great axe. Power Attack/Cleave are a must.

I took some fighter levels with my Rogue for the two extra feats, and for the additional HD and BAB. She uses TWF.

Clerics are a must for spontaneous heal spells, at least in Ironman. Mine is LG with War and Law domains. War domain is great early, as your cleric is a decent melee fighter for the first 1/2 of the game.

olaf

Bill Dungsroman
09-25-2003, 09:35 AM
I'm going with:

Human Paladin (leader, fighter and secondary healer)
Dwarf Fighter (pretty much your standard munchkin tank)
Human Druid (Healer, Summoner, Entangler - Entangle and Web are God in this game, nobody ever breaks free)
Halfling Rogue (Make sure he has 18 DEX when you make him, it will bump to 20 as a Halfling)
Elf Sorceror (As previously mentioned, Sorc is better. Most of the spells suck and you're better served having a sorc know the few that you'll need).

Make sure to get the Use Magic Device feat for the rogue. Most of the magic-related feats (Widen Spell and the like) suck. Cleave, Improved Initiative, Rapid Shot are good feats.

Pickpocket everyone. Since you're in it for the minmaxing, prepare to reload a lot, since you'll fail half the time. Often, you'll get money when you successfully pick, and it wil just show up in your money totals, so keep an eye on them.

Pay attention when you level up. HP are random, so you'll want to shoot for at least 10 for fighters, 8 for druid/clerics, 6 for thieves and 4 for wizar/sorcs. Add 2 to any of those if you have a good CON (16 or better I believe).

BDR

Jaysun
09-25-2003, 10:57 AM
Make sure all of your fighter types go all the way up to Cleave/Great Cleave in feats. My Paladin kicks major ass with those feats. I've had him wipe out large groups of Bugbears by himself, especially with using a weapon with reach like a Polearm.

Also, if you want to have any archer or crossbow people, make sure you take the feats Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, otherwise you will never hit enemies engaged in melee with your tanks.

Jaysun
09-25-2003, 11:02 AM
Clerics are a must for spontaneous heal spells, at least in Ironman. Mine is LG with War and Law domains. War domain is great early, as your cleric is a decent melee fighter for the first 1/2 of the game.

olaf

Clerics also become awesome fighters with the spells Divine Power (turns them into a Fighter in terms of attacks, to-hit numbers, etc.) and Rightous Might (makes him huge, which gives him reach and higher strength = more damage, easier to hit stuff).

DrDel
09-25-2003, 11:36 AM
wtf is
1) min-maxing?

2) ironman?

Kalle
09-25-2003, 11:53 AM
wtf is
1) min-maxing?

2) ironman?

Answers:

1) Trying to get the maximum possible performance with as minimal effort as possible. Here, building the best possible character.

2) It's a game mode in ToEE where you can only save when you exit the game.

Lum
09-25-2003, 02:05 PM
Hot elves.

Why, do you have pics?

Sadly, http://www.elfporn.com exists. (not work-safe, as if you couldn't guess from the link.

Kalle
09-25-2003, 02:16 PM
Hot elves.

Why, do you have pics?

Sadly, http://www.elfporn.com exists. (not work-safe, as if you couldn't guess from the link.

...and they even have elf lesbians. I think Anders is doomed. :wink:

Robert Sharp
09-25-2003, 02:17 PM
I disagree with the sorcerer thing. The (specialist) wizard only has one less spell per spell level and ends up knowing more types. I agree that not all the spells are useful, but the socerer often knows only a couple (sometimes just one!) at his highest spell level. I think there is at least more than one spell that is useful at those levels. I like the wizard better, especially since a specialist can choose which spells he is unable to cast in this one.

But it depends on your preferences. I am just explaining why I prefer wizards.

Miramon
09-25-2003, 02:55 PM
These are my choices for a party to make life easier in ToEE. This is not necessarily optimized for high levels, nor is it necessarily ideal for other CRPGs or especially for PnP campaigns, where roleplaying is actually meaningful.

-----

4 of 5 slots:

* Human fighter -- for extra feats, though the skills are irrelevant to a fighter. Fighters should choose damage-dealing feats for melee, and can blow off ranged skills, since they're going to be standing in front anyway. Because of the stupid D&D ZoC rules, take combat reflexes and mobility and even the tumbling skill.

* Human, dwarf, or half-orc paladin -- good fighter, emergency healing -- or if you want to be evil, take another fighter. Barbarian is just not so hot a choice IMO just for the extra 2 HP a level, but it is a better option than Ranger. Paladin doesn't have to waste feats on clerical stuff because there is going to be a cleric there anyway.

* Any race cleric -- high quality undead turning is necessary in this game, so cleric instead of druid. Being a druid is just a temptation to shapechange and get chopped up anyhow, plus druids can't default-spell back to healing, so their spell memorization requirements gimp them compared to clerics, unless there is also a cleric in the party.

* Any sorcerer who has no charisma penalty. Sorcerers are much better than wizards, specialty or otherwise, in CRPGs. 90% of the spells are useless to man or beast in CRPGs, (80% in PnP :roll:) and getting more spells per day combined with not having to memorize is uber. The only real downside is one level delay in getting to next level spells, e.g. fireball at level 6 instead of level 5. Considering the benefits, it's still no contest; casting the extra fireballs at level 6 is well worth the wait, since they will be 6D6 anyway then just like wizards; and in the meantime you can still be blasting some ridiculous number of magic missiles, webs, etc. per day.


So the question is, for the fifth slot, do you want a thief or an extra one of the above classes. I'm only on the 2nd level of the dungeon, but I haven't found any traps worth mentioning so that thief specialty has so far been worthless. Level 2 arcane spells are pretty weak and only a few are very useful, so the sorcerer might as well learn the knock spell, which obviates the "open lock" ability. I have a thief who specializes in archery, but in retrospect I'd much prefer either another sorcerer or another fighter, as archery just doesn't do much damage even with all the archery feats. The other thief skills just haven't seen much action in my party. Improved evasion or whatever that feat is called is great if a thief is your only character in a PnP game, but it doesn't much help the party if your thief takes no damage when everyone else takes 50% from a fireball. I also don't see any very good reason in this particular game to take a monk or ranger, but I guess you could play around with a druid if you also have a cleric, and then you could trade the paladin in for another fighter. Anyhow if you do take a thief, they should be human, elf, or halfling, human for the extra skill points, or the other two for the extra dexterity.

Dirt
09-25-2003, 03:01 PM
Is a Rogue really necessary for the game? Will Knock solve the problem?

Miramon
09-25-2003, 03:05 PM
That's pretty much my question, so far I've seen no need for a rogue, or as I call them, thieves, because that's what they are, dammit.

Lunch of Kong
09-25-2003, 03:07 PM
Welcome to munchkin land.

My standard computer D&D party has always been sorcerer, wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue. That gives you balanced party of 3 spell casters and 3 melee fighters (clerics serve both functions)

In TOEE, you can easily give your fighter and cleric 26 STR through items. High strength means successful trip attacks and more money (carry more loot back to town)

fighter: max str, high dex, con: cleave, exotic weap: spiked chain, spring attack, whirlwind, improved trip. If dex or con are odd values, increase those during stat increases. otherwise, dump stat increase into STR.

rogue : high str, max dex, max int, high cha: dodge, mobility, combat reflx, spring attack. increase CON if odd, otherwise increase STR.

cleric: max str, high dex, high wis, high cha, high con. penetration (to dismiss spell-resistant demons), combat feats, with craft arms at 9th (to make holy swords). increase CON if odd, otherwise increase WIS.

sorcerer: max dex, high cha: dodge, spell focus enchant, penetration, greater spell focus enchant. maybe pointblank shot (to prevent -4 hit penalty for ranged-touch attacks into melee) if CHA is odd, increase STR by 1 (carry more), then CHA. important spells: magic missile, sleep, ray of enfeeblement (p0wns!!), web, charm person, tashas laugh, fireball, dispel magic, suggestion, hold monster

wizard (non-specialist): max dex, high int: dodge, item crafting feats. maybe penetration. if INT is odd, increase STR by 1, then INT. spells you want: magic missile, grease, glitterdust, dispel magic, fireball, ice storm


Oh yeah, another TOEE bug:

If you cast magic 10' circle of protection from evil on an extra-planar evil entity, it's supposed to root them in place like a hold monster spell. But it doesn't. RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! :-)

The best course of action is to cast the spell on your most heavily armored party member, and to use him as a barricade to keep the demon away from your other party members. (evil creatures may not move closer than 10 feet)

Lunch of Kong
09-25-2003, 04:29 PM
Oh yeah. I forgot to say you should make your cleric worship Heironeous, so you can get the War and Good domain. War gives you longsword proficiency and focus, and Good gives you Holy Smite spell (which you need to enchant Holy weapons).

cleric alignment = either lawful neutral or neutral good. Yes, you can have a lawful evil party... and have a lawful neutral cleric of Heironeous in your midst.

voltaic
09-26-2003, 01:49 AM
If you cast magic 10' circle of protection from evil on an extra-planar evil entity, it's supposed to root them in place like a hold monster spell. But it doesn't. RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! :-)
Sorry, "Protection from Evil" on the demon himself?

Lunch of Kong
09-26-2003, 02:22 AM
If you cast magic 10' circle of protection from evil on an extra-planar evil entity, it's supposed to root them in place like a hold monster spell. But it doesn't. RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! :-)
Sorry, "Protection from Evil" on the demon himself?

No, the higher-level "Magic Circle of Protection" spell variants. In the earlier D&D games, there was a spell known as the "Protection From Evil 10' Radius". The magic circle of protection spells are similar, except they are no longer limited to just good and evil, but also have law and chaos variants.

Under the new rules, if you cast the magic circle against evil on a friendly target, the spell projects an outward magical force that prevents evil beings from entering the spell radius (10 feet).

But if you cast it on a hostile target, the spell is supposed to project an inward magical force that prevents the evil being from exiting the spell radius.

olaf
09-26-2003, 05:45 PM
You dont need a rogue for traps and locks, but I love the sneak attack. If you dual wield and throw in a couple fighter levels to get those feats and some extra BAB, your rogue will kick ass.

olaf

Greg Williams
09-26-2003, 07:37 PM
Gave my rogue dual weapons, and dual weap defense. Works out to be a pretty nasty light fighter. Have him with a high dex, high str, and fair everything else. But currently has a cutlass and that nice magic dagger Elmo had. But outside, haven't had a whole lot of use for a rogue.

John Reynolds
09-26-2003, 08:43 PM
Are bards worthless or worthwhile?

Jakub
09-26-2003, 08:46 PM
When have Bards ever been worthwhile? :) Maybe when you have a full party ten times over :p

Lunch of Kong
09-27-2003, 12:19 AM
A male bard character is only worthwhile in an actual pencil and paper game where you have women players playing female characters. 'Cuz then they can flirt with you by pretending that it's only their character that is flirting with you.

Bill Dungsroman
09-27-2003, 01:11 PM
Bards were good in Icewind Dale 1. The game makes a steady transition from the need for fighters in the beginning to mages near the end, and the bard makes that transition right along with the game. With a bard in your party and a ranger as one of the tanks, your thief (rather, mage/thief) only needs to put points in traps and lockpick, since bard has pickpocket and ranger has stealth (unless you dig backstab). Very few items in the game can't be ID'ed by his lore, so you rarely have to pay for ID or worry about a mage memorizing it. There are some great bard-specific items, the HoW expansion gives him some truly helpful songs (if you play it right, you can have him use his crossbow and never stop playing his song). It's kind of cheesy, but there is no penalty in IWD1 for pausing, going into inventory, and putting on/taking off armor, so your bard can melee (there's a great suit of armor for him in the game) or cast spells as need be. Late in the game, having a mage, a mage/thief and a bard cast fireball on a mob is cake. Also, you can make him the party leader in town to take advantage of his high CHA and you can make the rest of your party fugly and use those points elswewhere. He levels up quickly too.

BDR

Lum
09-27-2003, 01:35 PM
I'm thinking that the ideal ToEE party is 5 Barbarians.

MAYBE a cleric. But I'm not convinced that healing will actually help.

I'm also thinking I'm not terribly happy with ToEE. "D&D with no compromises" is an interesting theory, but not very fun in practice. I still think Icewind Dale 2 had the best D&D-style CRPG ruleset so far.

John Reynolds
09-27-2003, 01:46 PM
Bards were good in Icewind Dale 1. The game makes a steady transition from the need for fighters in the beginning to mages near the end, and the bard makes that transition right along with the game. With a bard in your party and a ranger as one of the tanks, your thief (rather, mage/thief) only needs to put points in traps and lockpick, since bard has pickpocket and ranger has stealth (unless you dig backstab). Very few items in the game can't be ID'ed by his lore, so you rarely have to pay for ID or worry about a mage memorizing it. There are some great bard-specific items, the HoW expansion gives him some truly helpful songs (if you play it right, you can have him use his crossbow and never stop playing his song). It's kind of cheesy, but there is no penalty in IWD1 for pausing, going into inventory, and putting on/taking off armor, so your bard can melee (there's a great suit of armor for him in the game) or cast spells as need be. Late in the game, having a mage, a mage/thief and a bard cast fireball on a mob is cake. Also, you can make him the party leader in town to take advantage of his high CHA and you can make the rest of your party fugly and use those points elswewhere. He levels up quickly too.

BDR

All the times I've played the BG and IWD games, I've never rolled up a bard. Almost created one for ToEE, but I didn't want to gimp my party since I plan on avoiding the NPCs. Ended up with:

human male paladin
halfling male fighter (nostalgic reasons for this, played the original module with one)
female monk (backup fighter in lieu of thief)
human female cleric
elf male sorcerer

I rerolled so much some of those characters have 15 as their lowest stat.

Qenan
09-27-2003, 01:59 PM
I'm thinking that the ideal ToEE party is 5 Barbarians.

MAYBE a cleric. But I'm not convinced that healing will actually help.

I'm also thinking I'm not terribly happy with ToEE. "D&D with no compromises" is an interesting theory, but not very fun in practice. I still think Icewind Dale 2 had the best D&D-style CRPG ruleset so far.

I'm starting to think you are right. That's as damning an indictment of this game as I've seen so far...

Think I might try it, just out of curiousity.

ydejin
09-27-2003, 04:36 PM
I'm thinking that the ideal ToEE party is 5 Barbarians.

MAYBE a cleric. But I'm not convinced that healing will actually help.

I'm also thinking I'm not terribly happy with ToEE. "D&D with no compromises" is an interesting theory, but not very fun in practice. I still think Icewind Dale 2 had the best D&D-style CRPG ruleset so far.

I'm starting to think you are right. That's as damning an indictment of this game as I've seen so far...

Think I might try it, just out of curiousity.

I like ToEE better than Icewind Dale 2. The combat system is much, much better IMO. It's more strategic with lot's of interesting attack and movement options. And since it's turn based you get to think through what you want to do. I like the graphics better too.

As others have pointed there are other issues with ToEE. Homlett has got to be the dullest town since Diablo. And the FedEx quests there are very annoying (although I've mostly done pretty well just ignoring them). I suppose we can blame some of the Homlett FedEx quests on the original module -- still I found them very dull. Also the merchant weapon supply is fairly annoying (no longbow anywhere, and had to do a lot of looking for a rapier).

Overall I'm having a great time with ToEE. I'm definitely hoping Atari green-lights more modules built on the ToEE Engine. :D

olaf
09-28-2003, 03:14 PM
I like TToEE much better than IWD2, though I think that was a better implementation of 3/3.5E rules than NWN/SOU or POR2.

The combat in TToEE has a lot more tactical depth than in any of the IE games, or any CRPG based on D&D ever.

olaf

Acoustic Rob
09-29-2003, 07:22 AM
Homlett has got to be the dullest town since Diablo. And the FedEx quests there are very annoying (although I've mostly done pretty well just ignoring them). I suppose we can blame some of the Homlett FedEx quests on the original module -- still I found them very dull.

Huh. The very first AD&D campaign I played in ran "Village of Homlett" as the very first adventure we ran through, and I remember Homlett being a great place to adventure.

Of course, we had a good DM who really played up the consequences of our actions--we got ripped off by a NPC thief that we were dumb enough to trust; got overwhelmed by bugbears and had to bribe 'em to let us go; and the assassin that started following us around after we cleared out the moathouse caused us serious trouble when he murdered the mayor and framed our cleric. It took the better part of a (real-time) year before we were able to kill the bastard...and my character *slept through* the climactic showdown because he'd drunk himself into a stupor at the big banquet beforehand. Good times....

Oh, and Elmo was the Man even back in '81. "Elmo hits...and kills." :twisted:

Dirt
09-29-2003, 10:04 AM
Yup.

Troika=Good engine creators.

Troika~=Good storytellers.

Bill Dungsroman
09-29-2003, 10:18 AM
All the times I've played the BG and IWD games, I've never rolled up a bard. Almost created one for ToEE, but I didn't want to gimp my party since I plan on avoiding the NPCs. Ended up with:

human male paladin
halfling male fighter (nostalgic reasons for this, played the original module with one)
female monk (backup fighter in lieu of thief)
human female cleric
elf male sorcerer

I rerolled so much some of those characters have 15 as their lowest stat.

That's the great thing about IWD1: you roll and then you can redistribute the points (I wish ToEE let you do that, but I know it's a PnP rules violation). Get a good point total, then give your Bard 18 CHA and the rest of your party a 5 CHA. Every party member but the Bard will have 3 18's or very close. Give them an 18 in thier class-specific stat, an 18 in CON, and a high STR, and you're set.

Alan Au
09-29-2003, 10:57 AM
A frined of mine once tried a six mage party. He was doing great until he came up against a magic resistant monster, which tore his entire party to shreds in seconds. haha

Bards can be good depending on the game. In BG2, bards (with the skald kit) are incredible, with their song giving allies +2 to hit, +2 to damage, -2 to AC (where lower AC = better). At level 15, it's +4 to hit and damage, -4 to AC, and immunity to fear, confusion, and stun. When he isn't singing, I use him as a countermage (e.g. using the mage protection-removal/disruption spells).

The bard might be used as a replacement for that second sorc. Not as much firepower, but certainly tougher to kill.

- Alan

NI
09-29-2003, 11:05 AM
A frined of mine once tried a six mage party. He was doing great until he came up against a magic resistant monster, which tore his entire party to shreds in seconds. haha

Have you read the Journal Of Elmonster (www.baldurdash.org/journal.html)? A lone mage through both BG2 and TOB :shock:

Ben Sones
09-30-2003, 11:43 PM
I like Humans for the extra feat.

Yeah, Wizards really fixed humans in 3rd edition. I hated the way previous editions handled the race. They got no bonuses or penalties (which just made them boring), and their grand "advantage" was that they could be any class. Whee. Ditto for the Fighter class, which is now a lot more interesting than it used to be, thanks to Feats.

Ben Sones
09-30-2003, 11:50 PM
Yup.

Troika=Good engine creators.

Troika~=Good storytellers.

Er... Arcanum? Had a fantastic story--one of the best I've ever seen in a CRPG--but was hampered by a clunky engine (particularly the combat portion).

ToEE wasn't exactly a story-heavy module, in any event. I was expecting a dungeon crawl--I assumed that's what Troika set out to make when they chose this license. My guess is that they wanted to develop a strong engine without spending three years on a game, and chose ToEE for that reason.

DrDel
10-01-2003, 07:52 AM
I am getting into TTOEE now.. I am at the moat house and just got my ass cleaned by the brigands... funny thing, both parties (mine and the brigands( died at the exact same time... 1 brigand was melee attacking my sorcerer, they both died at the EXACT same time and were the only two characters left still alive!

seeing that it is a turn based combat system, how is this possible? (dying at the same time!)

and then, to make things more coincidental as my Sorc kills the brigand everyone in my group reaches level 2! haha

---

on a different note, how many hours of play do you think the game entails? anyone finish it yet?

Miramon
10-01-2003, 10:14 AM
Not to rag on you, but killed by brigands? The weakest monster in the game, even goblins have better AC. They are level 0 I guess, or else are really incompetent rogue characters, since I've never seen one with more than 5 HP. Brigands die in a single hit from anything. Even a magic missile will often kill or at least disable them. What kind of party do you have?

Do you mean the l33t brigands with a couple of actual full level 1 guards inside the building? They are also extremely weak, but at least they have a level 2 guy who can do barbarian rage... 2 magic missiles or a well-placed sword will end his capers rather quickly, though.

Miramon
10-01-2003, 10:28 AM
If you know what you are doing I think you can get to the bottom of the temple in about 4-8 hours. You would be blowing off the dull and worthless fedex and roleplaying quests and just going to the temple and diving down as fast as possible after doing the moathouse and a few other minor outdoors encounters. You wouldn't be wasting time clearing out every last room of temple bugbear guards (this is rather slow work before you get fireball, and fairly unrewarding afterwards), but just going down through the dungeon as soon as you were strong enough for the next level or the next major encounter.

In the game I'm playing I'm messing with the elemental nodes with a 9th level party after having easily killed the evil high priest and his friends. I have no idea what I'm doing down there, as I haven't found any NPCs who have a clue what to do either (possibly because the quest scripting is so broken.) I've killed two weak demons and gotten two power stones, but the other two demons I've met have massive magic and damage resistance and I can't do much with them due to their gigantic hp totals. Consider for example a hezrou with high magic resistance, lots of immunities, and what looks like 20+ damage resistance, and maybe 400-500 hit points or so. This makes an average melee attack ping even with a +3 longsword or a frostbrand greatsword (sometimes a few points trickle through), and I've never done more than 10 damage with a crit. The only reliable damage I can do is about 4-8 dmg per cluster of 5 magic missiles, as most are resisted. 2 sorcerers used up all their 1st level magic missiles (with spell penetration feat) vs this demon and just got him to "injured." Fireballs and higher level damage spells are generally resisted or just saved against for 0 damage (either he's got improved evasion or he just is immune to various elements), and the demon has likewise so far ignored save-or-die spells like dismiss or phantasmal killer. The balor is even worse than the hezrou.

DrDel
10-01-2003, 10:40 AM
Not to rag on you, but killed by brigands? The weakest monster in the game, even goblins have better AC. They are level 0 I guess, or else are really incompetent rogue characters, since I've never seen one with more than 5 HP. Brigands die in a single hit from anything. Even a magic missile will often kill or at least disable them. What kind of party do you have?

Do you mean the l33t brigands with a couple of actual full level 1 guards inside the building? They are also extremely weak, but at least they have a level 2 guy who can do barbarian rage... 2 magic missiles or a well-placed sword will end his capers rather quickly, though.

well, it was the3rd combat that my group saw, the ifrst being the giant forgs, the second being the brigands on the outside and the 3rd being the Boss brigand with his 7 brigan gaurds. My characters are all level 1 (Fighter, Paladin, Sorc, Bard, ROgue ).. so, yeah I suck ass...

Miramon
10-01-2003, 11:01 AM
I assume you are just busting into the room with half the party and getting surrounded or something? It's hard to see how you could get killed if you deployed outside the door.

So try this. Set up the party outside. Open the door with one party member. Move him back. Presumably you will see a trickle of brigand fighters emerging who you can easily kill, then the leader, who you can kill with a little more effort, then you can go in and waste the archers. If you open the door with say a rogue and move him back behind the fighters on his move, the idiot AI is likely to continue aggroing the rogue and will give your fighters free attacks, likely they will kill the brigands without even having to use any actions :)

DrDel
10-01-2003, 11:11 AM
Miramon,

I wish it were that easy.. I just tried it again and died a miserable death. The Brigand leader keeps taking out my fighters (my party is all lvl 1 noobs).

I think I need to level up somewhere else before I try this area again... where can noobs level in this game? areas? directions to these areas?


edit: and yes I am using the door as a choke point..still getting my ass creamed

Chris Nahr
10-01-2003, 11:45 AM
Are you running a party of default characters by any chance? I have yet to leave the hamlet of Hommlet (ho, ho, ho!) so I'm not sure how I'll fare at the Moathouse... but I noticed that the default characters had crappy stats, as is default characters' wont. That might be a reason when you're having problems vs brigands.

DrDel
10-01-2003, 11:53 AM
Are you running a party of default characters by any chance? I have yet to leave the hamlet of Hommlet (ho, ho, ho!) so I'm not sure how I'll fare at the Moathouse... but I noticed that the default characters had crappy stats, as is default characters' wont. That might be a reason when you're having problems vs brigands.


dude, I totally min-maxed my players... most have stats in the 18-19 range with bonuses (at least 2 stats are like that per character).


I have been trying to grind my stats and the more combat I get involved in the more bugggy I realize this craptacular game is... I gave up when a lobster spawns behind a tree and no one can target it to kill it.. so I remain stuck in combat mode and cannot leave the scene!

DrDel
10-01-2003, 11:53 AM
The Temple of Elemental SHUT THE FUCK UP!

olaf
10-01-2003, 01:46 PM
Well the Brigands are weak but you can still die to them. I mean, I can easily see that happening to someone. They can sneak attack and if you dont have high CON, level 1 non-tanks can die from one attack.

In my Ironman game, a party which is currently on the 4th level of the Temple, I lost my rogue to the Brigands IN THE MOATHOUSE COURTYARD lol. She was level 2 also, not level 1. She had something like 8hp, and got sneak attacked where the guy got a crit, hit her for something like 13 and I couldnt stabilize her before she bit it. Since then I have only had 2 more deaths with that party.

olaf

DrDel
10-01-2003, 02:50 PM
olaf,

"I couldnt stabilize her.." wtf does that mean? how do you stabilize someone?

pieter
10-01-2003, 03:03 PM
I think I need to level up somewhere else before I try this area again... where can noobs level in this game? areas? directions to these areas?

If you talk to the priest upstairs in the monastery he'll ask you to retrieve an artifact from the site of a battle (at least he asked my NG party). The area will appear on your worldmap somewhere in the north west. This is a great place to get some experience, as you'll mostly fight low level undead in groups of threes and fours. Also, if you rest in that area you will often be interrupted by undead gnolls or pirates(!), both giving you XP and some loot.

You shouldn't go to the south of the area, as there's a hill giant and a brown bear down there.

Desslock
10-01-2003, 03:42 PM
"I couldnt stabilize her.." wtf does that mean? how do you stabilize someone?

When a character is reduced to less than 0 hit points, the character is dying, but not actually dead until the character has -10 hit points. Once below zero, characters will lose an additional hit point each turn, unless they are "stabilized", which can happen without anyone doing anything, but will automatically happen if another character successfully uses the "heal" skill, or magically heals at least one point (such as through the 0-level healing spell).

ydejin
10-01-2003, 04:26 PM
Hey DrDel. I managed to get wiped out by the brigands in the moat house at least twice. Level 1 parties are just plain fragile. You might find it easier to go downstairs in the moathouse and clear at least the main entryway before taking on the brigands.

DrDel
10-01-2003, 04:41 PM
I noticed the downstairs icon where the rats are in the moat house.. but how the hell do you get downstairs? I click on theicon and nothing happens!

ydejin
10-01-2003, 05:59 PM
I noticed the downstairs icon where the rats are in the moat house.. but how the hell do you get downstairs? I click on theicon and nothing happens!

If the cursor changes from an arrow to a hand, you should be able to go downstairs. What sometimes happens though is if the particular party member who is "active" is in the back of the party sometimes people in front of the party can block access to the stairwell (and the game doesn't give you any feedback, just nothing happens).

Try playing around with it and if you still can't get it to work, I'll see if I can provide some more specific advice. But you definitely want to get down those stairs.

Miramon
10-01-2003, 08:15 PM
Sorry, can't help you all that much further with the brigands without looking over your shoulder, as I never had any problem with them even when I randomly blundered through the door. I was certainly first level at the time, as I had otherwise only fought the other moathouse frogs, the spider, and the outside brigands. I fought them at least twice, since I decided I had absolutely no need of a rogue halfway through and replayed the beginning again with an extra sorcerer.

Hm, does your sorc have color spray, btw? That should make the fight just utterly trivial, since the brigands will almost never make their saves and will just fall unconscious. Of course the sorc needs a bit of maneuvering room to get off the cone effect, but it's not that hard to set that up.

Robert Sharp
10-01-2003, 08:38 PM
How do I remove NPCs from my party? I can't find it anywhere.

ydejin
10-02-2003, 12:10 AM
How do I remove NPCs from my party? I can't find it anywhere.

Choose one of your PCs and select "Talk" from the Radial Menu. Click on the NPC you want to remove. Tell them you want them to leave the party.

Robert Sharp
10-02-2003, 08:54 AM
How do I remove NPCs from my party? I can't find it anywhere.

Choose one of your PCs and select "Talk" from the Radial Menu. Click on the NPC you want to remove. Tell them you want them to leave the party.

Thanks...I was trying to talk to them the easy way, but I couldn' t because it just selected them :). I should have thought of the radial, but I don't use it for talking to people.

Dirt
10-02-2003, 05:27 PM
How do I remove NPCs from my party? I can't find it anywhere.

Choose one of your PCs and select "Talk" from the Radial Menu. Click on the NPC you want to remove. Tell them you want them to leave the party.

Then get ready to kill them.