Monday Night Combat - we've just announced

[Matt Perkins]

Snipers are the most powerful. Assault finishes not far behind. Then probably Tank/Gunner/Assassin.

Just basing that on which classes lead the rounds in the games I play. Good snipers are dominating because they are so versatile. Same with Assault.

[Rorschach]

K/D does not a game win (thank god)... Also some maps are more cramped and less sniper friendly

[Matt Perkins]

The rankings do not go by K/D, they go by money. You either have to be doing a LOT of kills or killing bots / building stuff to get on top by money. Snipers can not kill bots very well...

*shrugs*

I have seen more players adapting to snipers recently, so that is a good sign. Maybe it will even itself out over time.

[Tman]

I don't like that fact that on so many maps, snipers have multiple lanes of fire from a single spot. A good sniper can shut a team down. It's really hard to get to them because they always have traps around them.

The other classes all are fairly even. I play gunner, support and tank depending upon the map. I just can't do assassin to save my life yet whenever I try sniper, it seems like an assassin always has my number. Assassins are so fragile, I have a lot of respect for when they can sneak up on me. My problem is the noise I'm generating clouds out their hum. Assault takes a lot of skill to be quick on your feet. Again, I have respect for those guys that can fly/jump and shoot all at the same time.

[Matt Perkins]

Tman

I have the exact complaint about snipers. The maps are just too small to have such powerful snipers. As Assault, I make it my mission to hunt them down, because otherwise they just kill me over and over. As the Gunner...I do not go into the open if they have a sniper. I have absolutely no way to get at a Sniper as a Gunner. Even Support is better at taking out Snipers than the Gunner is because of his bomb call.

I definitely do not want to gimp the Sniper class, but some change that makes their job a bit harder could help...

[Alstein]

Tman

I have the exact complaint about snipers. The maps are just too small to have such powerful snipers. As Assault, I make it my mission to hunt them down, because otherwise they just kill me over and over. As the Gunner...I do not go into the open if they have a sniper. I have absolutely no way to get at a Sniper as a Gunner. Even Support is better at taking out Snipers than the Gunner is because of his bomb call.

I definitely do not want to gimp the Sniper class, but some change that makes their job a bit harder could help...

1 shot on the sniper rifle would help, maybe up the damage some on that 1 shot. Snipers should get something to help them out with bot killing to compensate. It's bad when a sniper can kill a fully upgraded tank in 1 second with repeated sniper shots. (I can buy sniper one-shotting other classes) The only other really unfair thing is assassins vs tanks (which is unfair for the assassin a bit)

[rossm]

I've played maybe an hour of this game, and I must be missing something. Very often I die as soon as I leave the spawn room. A couple minutes ago I was gunner and another gunner killed me in 3 shots, over and over. It takes me probably 40 shots to kill one. I had upgraded my skills already.

Also, what am I supposed to do with money other than buy skills? Those max out pretty quickly. I see those bot assist things, but they have a fairly long cooldown. I guess I could buy turrets, but they die so quickly it doesn't seem worth it.

I was 3-19 in that last game. No idea what to do. I have been on the winning side before, and had positive K:D ratios, but I think that was a side effect from being on the winning side.

Also I played tank once and I was less than useless. Absolutely horrible. I had no idea what to do other than be a really terrible sniper. If I tried charging I would die before I killed anything. If I tried deploying, my gun sucks except at close range so I was basically a sitting duck that couldn't kill anything.

Halp!

[Jab]

With the gunner, one thing that I noticed was rate of fire is king with the class. When I first made my custom class I picked accuracy and noticed I was always dying 1v1 against gunners. When I switched to RoF my kill ratio improved dramatically.

Regarding money that is one of my complaints with the game, past the 15 minute mark everyone is usually fully leveled and the game becomes a stalemate. One thing I think would be cool is if you could spend a lot of money to spawn jackbots, something to be used as an end game push.

Personally I find the deploy feature for tanks and gunners useless due to the speed of the game. By the time I deploy the enemies have already moved on or I'm being attacked from outside my attack range.

[rossm]

I don't have a custom class yet. Although I probably have enough money now, I wouldn't know what to do with them.

[Tman]

Rossm - my best advice is to play SP blitz ... A LOT... and do it with every character. Blitz has several modes - going from 10, 20, 30 and then unlimited number of rounds. There's also a scramble blitz which is crazy.

If you can do all these modes of blitz with each character, first off you'll get a feel for how to survive a lot longer and while it's not the same as when you're going against pros, it will help you figure out all the skills and practice those. It will also teach you the strengths and weaknesses so when you do go up against pros, you'll have a better idea for what to do. One specific example - charge with tank. You'll get a lot of ring-outs and the damage you do is great. You can also use charge to escape when you're low on health.

At the end of doing blitz, you'll have a wad of cash to create several custom classes and hopefully you'll have gravitated to the class you like the best. Then come back in here and ask specific questions on the class and we can help you tweak it.

Personally, I've found my preferred play style (gunner) is not really conducive to all the maps. I play support and tank as well depending upon the map / my mood.

[rossm]

I was just going the Blitz mode, I finished the 30 one as support. I did 20 with assassin and it was a lot harder; I think a mode solely against bots doesn't really favor assassin.

I made a support custom class with skill regen, speed and crit. I find myself following around a gunner like a heavy/medic in tf2, and dropping my turret to cover our backs. I often die from snipers and assassins though. It's annoying that I have to swap weapons to grapple. Even when I hear or see an assassin coming, I often die anyway because I can't switch over quickly enough.

I'm already tired of people crying over mic about class choices, or yelling that their team is all noobs and should l2p. They've done a good job of escaping a lot of the negative aspects of dota-style games, but they're not gone completely.

[Tman]

I was just going the Blitz mode, I finished the 30 one as support. I did 20 with assassin and it was a lot harder; I think a mode solely against bots doesn't really favor assassin.

Assassin is the strongest in blitz. Learn the lunge (R for reload) and it will add significantly to your score.



I made a support custom class with skill regen, speed and crit. I find myself following around a gunner like a heavy/medic in tf2, and dropping my turret to cover our backs. I often die from snipers and assassins though. It's annoying that I have to swap weapons to grapple. Even when I hear or see an assassin coming, I often die anyway because I can't switch over quickly enough.

Use your shotgun. It will 1-shot an assassin.




I'm already tired of people crying over mic about class choices, or yelling that their team is all noobs and should l2p. They've done a good job of escaping a lot of the negative aspects of dota-style games, but they're not gone completely.

I've learned to tune that out. I don't even use the in-game voice. Things are just too fast paced to do anything but complain, so why bother? For winning / losing, I hate getting steamrolled, but it's amazing how many games I've joined (when there was one-slot) the losing team only to have it turn around.

Have you used juice? What did you use it for? Have you ever bought juice with that spare cash? Have you used the ejectors? The annihilator? Have you bought bots? Have you hacked an enemy turret? Have you hacked your own turrets? There are so many things that can turn the tide, it's amazing how much I see people just pushing when there are so many other things at your disposal.

[rossm]

I don't know what juice does, as it doesn't seem to tell you anywhere. Presumably you just do everything faster and do more damage?

[Alstein]

You take almost no damage, and you do a lot more damage and are faster.

You can be killed by ring-outs and instakills though and slowed down by grabs.

Ejectors and Annihilator are used quite often. Bots- generally Tanks are the biggest buyer as they have the most annoying bot. Buying Juice can be real tough if the enemy owns the center, when you'd need the bought juice the most, same with using the other mechanics.

Then again, this is a general flaw of tower defense slippery slope mechanics, though Uber has done a pretty good job of working around the inherent genre flaws.

[Tman]

here (http://mondaynightcombat.wikia.com/wiki/Juice) is a great write-up on Juice.

Basically it gives you huge health, huge damage so you can wreak havoc for the ~10 seconds that it lasts. I'm guessing on the time, I've never timed it myself. It's short but powerful burst where you can lay waste to the pros and/or turrets.

[Rorschach]

At the start of overtime the moneyball shields go down. Juice up once you get in range of the enemy's ball defences. Lay waste and finish up on the ball. Even if you don't take it out in the 10 seconds, you've knocked them back on defense something fierce.

[rossm]

My roommate just got the game and we're trying to play some LAN blitz matches. However, we can't see each others' games in the server browser. If we try to join through a steam invite it says server isn't responding. I think it's because even though we clearly selected "LAN Game" it's hosting via our external IP, but we don't have the port forwarded. I tried figuring out the console command to manually make the game connect to his local IP but I couldn't get it to do anything. And there are no empty blitz servers online.

[Black Isis]

Picked this up two weeks ago (and promptly left for London for a week), and I'm really enjoying it despite not being so sure when I first tried it with a friend's guest pass (whoever came up with that is a marketing genius, btw). For 11 bucks from a 4 pack it's a steal though, and just different enough in style and tone to make for a nice change from TF2, which is my usual "casual" gaming choice. I can't seem to get the hang of much other than the Gunner though, which is somewhat frustrating.

I think it's big appeal for me over TF2 is actually Mickey Cantor's play-calling. :)

[Matt Perkins]

I think it's big appeal for me over TF2 is actually Mickey Cantor's play-calling. :)
I would like this more if we actually calling out the game we were playing. It is VERY rare for him to refer to the game. He often spills coffee, is bored, needs to his laundry, etc. We sometimes get, "OMG, did you see that! I didn't even know that was possible". But I could not tell you if that is in response to something happening the map. Mainly because it is generic.

The announcer is more something to drown out after a bit of playing at this point.

[Alstein]

I'd agree a bit more in-game stuff, but he has a huge variety of lines, he needs to keep getting more and more though.

[Rorschach]

I'm pretty sure Mickey part player specific and part on the action. He'll call out some kills especially in Blitz mode and let you know "Juicebot" or the other mascot are out, but he'll also remind you to spend some money on skill upgrades if you have a wad of cash and aren't all 3s.

And then sometimes he just yammers and says something funnny.

[Matt Perkins]

But part of what he says is for you only. Like he opened a mic directly to your earpiece. The stuff he says as the announcer is what I have a problem with... And yeah, I was over stating how often he is talking about inane stuff. It just starts to feel like they could have tried to tie him in a bit better than they did. *shrugs* Not a killer, just a minor annoyance.

[rossm]

I turned him off so fast. Like it was waverace or something.

[Timsfker]

Anyone got a guest pass they could pass on to me? Apparently on valentines day every player got one. PM me your steam username and i'll add you, thanks guys.

(EDIT: got one. Thankyou to rossm!)

[lordkosc]

Ok so when are we getting some new maps? :p

[Nathan Phoenix]

And when are snipers getting toned down?

[Alstein]

And when are snipers getting toned down?

Agreed, snipers are just too good on some maps, and those ice traps negate the best counter-sniper strategies too easily. On top of that, the sniper rifle is a little too good of a weapon.

I used sniper myself a couple of times. It felt like easy mode, and I suck at sniper stuff. The TF2 sniper seemed 100 times harder in comparison.

[Black Isis]

I play mostly Gunner, though I'm dipping my toes into Assassin lately, and frankly, I feel like none of the classes are particularly unbalanced compared to each other, but they all seem really overpowered in general. In TF2, I generally have a fair number of fights that last for several exchanges, and disengaging is possible (even on small maps), but in MNC it seems like almost every class is a bit of a glass cannon (except maybe the Tank?). Armor almost seems like a worthless upgrade because getting killed in 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second is rarely an advantage.

The Sniper and Tank seem especially bad about this -- the sniper rifle and the Tank's jetgun or whatever just do crazy amounts of damage in very short periods of time and most classes won't live through it (and those that do can't escape a second shot). I also find the fact that the Tank can charge and blast me with his gun at the same time to be a little annoying.

These problems are only compounded by Juice, which seems really broken to me, especially when one team is just buying it by the case. "Wait for overtime and then send your whole juiced up team to go crazy on the moneyball" is a frequently employed (and really hard to defeat) strategy. The juiced-up Support dropping his turret right on top of the moneyball is especially frustrating.

[Matt Perkins]

As an alternative opinion, I love the lethality of the game. Except for the sniper (overpowered). But beyond that, I like that you have to withdraw earlier and fast or you pay for it. I like that if cowboy up and try to just wing it, instead helping the bots and building turrets (or gasp, working as a team), you are going to be at a huge disadvantage.


That tactic you mention at the end, in overtime, is that not exactly what it overtime is for? I mean, would we rather have stalemates or when the overtime switch flips, we all know what is coming and whoever can defend it and/or implement it first will win. Sudden Death and all. I kind of wish it was called that as a matter of fact, so more people got the idea of it.


I will echo the call for more maps...is that in the plans? Will there be additional DLCs? Did anyone make any money off the PC version so we can get more support longer term? Inquiring minds and all...

[Black Isis]

That tactic you mention at the end, in overtime, is that not exactly what it overtime is for? I mean, would we rather have stalemates or when the overtime switch flips, we all know what is coming and whoever can defend it and/or implement it first will win. Sudden Death and all. I kind of wish it was called that as a matter of fact, so more people got the idea of it.

That may be the point, but what I mean in general is that the team doesn't even try to attack for 15 or 20 or 30 minutes or whatever it's set to, just saves up a ton of money for juice,and then as soon as overtime hits they all use their juice (bought or otherwise) and steamroller the moneyball. It's almost impossible to defend against, making it almost worthless to do so -- the best defense seems to be doing the same thing to the other team, making 90% of the game irrelevant.

I think my distaste for MNC's overtime comes from the same place that makes me think of shootouts in hockey or soccer as lame ends to what might be a fun game.

[Matt Perkins]

That may be the point, but what I mean in general is that the team doesn't even try to attack for 15 or 20 or 30 minutes or whatever it's set to, just saves up a ton of money for juice,and then as soon as overtime hits they all use their juice (bought or otherwise) and steamroller the moneyball. It's almost impossible to defend against, making it almost worthless to do so -- the best defense seems to be doing the same thing to the other team, making 90% of the game irrelevant.
Most matches I play in do not make it to overtime. If teams are really doing this, buy juice pre overtime and make them pay for their hubris...



I think my distaste for MNC's overtime comes from the same place that makes me think of shootouts in hockey or soccer as lame ends to what might be a fun game.
You would just rather have games end? TF2 does overtime, other FPS games do too...what would you rather have instead?

[Black Isis]

Most matches I play in do not make it to overtime. If teams are really doing this, buy juice pre overtime and make them pay for their hubris...

Honestly, I just don't like this idea from the point of view that everyone abusing a broken game mechanic (in my eyes) doesn't make it better. It just compounds the problem -- now, in order to compete everyone's got to juice up. I dunno. I sort of wish juice wasn't in the game at all, or that it was significantly weaker (maybe it only gave you damage resistance, not damage resistance, speed, and added damage).


You would just rather have games end? TF2 does overtime, other FPS games do too...what would you rather have instead?

TF2's overtime doesn't drastically change the way the game is played though -- neither does a sudden death overtime in say, hockey. A shootout or just making the (rather weak) moneyball completely vulnerable just seems like it's changing the way the game is played too much.

[Matt Perkins]

Honestly, I just don't like this idea from the point of view that everyone abusing a broken game mechanic (in my eyes) doesn't make it better. It just compounds the problem -- now, in order to compete everyone's got to juice up. I dunno. I sort of wish juice wasn't in the game at all, or that it was significantly weaker (maybe it only gave you damage resistance, not damage resistance, speed, and added damage).
See, and I find juice a good mechanic. It allows team to breaks stalemates and push to a win, or push through turrets or whatever. It is pretty short and countered by a few things (grappling is a good one).

I will admit, I did not like it much at first. But once I got used it, it yet another mechanic to be used. Much like the Annhilator. Best used with timing and a plan, but almost always useful.



TF2's overtime doesn't drastically change the way the game is played though -- neither does a sudden death overtime in say, hockey. A shootout or just making the (rather weak) moneyball completely vulnerable just seems like it's changing the way the game is played too much.
No? Because I remember in TF2 OT, you spawn, you die, you are done. That seems pretty different from how normal TF2 works.

[Pogo]

I can't imagine a better way to end a game than the overtime system. Yeah it sucks when you feel you've "won" already through better pushing and more kills, only to lose to a juiced player who everybody on your team ignored as they left your base to go to the enemy's moneyball, but that's just how it has to be.

I haven't loaded up in a while, still have to finish downloading whatever latest patch/update there was as of 3 weeks ago, but I imagine you can find some servers that disabled juice buying entirely.

[Alstein]

Maybe Juice could be disabled in overtime, or everyone auto-juices immediately in overtime?

[Mazuo]

I don't think anyone's objecting to the concept of juicing to get past a tricky turret or group of tough opponents. That's what it's there for.

It's just downright cheesy though to fight team after team that doesn't work to actively attack your moneyball just so at the end every person on the team can juice and run roughshod over any possible defense you've worked hard to build up.

Ideally I'd like to see juice from killing be the only way to collect it during overtime.

[Alstein]

Noticing a good portion of servers are now disabling overtime due to these complaints.

[Matt Perkins]

I don't think anyone's objecting to the concept of juicing to get past a tricky turret or group of tough opponents. That's what it's there for.

It's just downright cheesy though to fight team after team that doesn't work to actively attack your moneyball just so at the end every person on the team can juice and run roughshod over any possible defense you've worked hard to build up.

Ideally I'd like to see juice from killing be the only way to collect it during overtime.
I guess I do not get it. If you can not finish the game by the end of regulation, then you are not pushing your opponent back and you are not winning the game. What you describe is a stalemate. Overtime is create a winner that 10-30m of gametime could not create. If you are in Overtime, it is because you did win the game in regulation.


Noticing a good portion of servers are now disabling overtime due to these complaints.
I have not seen any of these servers when I play, but I was not actively looking either, just joining a low ping server...



TF2 handled overtime by not allowing respawns. Not my favoritist, but it worked. MNC handles it by upping the power level of the players, equally, and giving you two more minutes to get that shit done. I like this method a LOT better.

What would people rather have happen. The game just ends in a tie? Just two more minutes of the same rules, so we play a 12m game instead of a 10m game? That is not going to solve anything.

[Matt Perkins]

Ok, I have been playing more and more of this... Here are my suggestions:

1) We need more maps.
2) The damage a juiced player does to turrets needs to be toned down a bit.
Here's why. To upgrade a rocket turret to level 3 costs 150 + 300 + 600 = 1050. Not to mention the building time, just the cost out of pocket. How long does it take to tear that boy down? One Juice. You can either save up for it from kills or just go spend $500 and take down one to three turrerts if you are fast (and depending upon class).
It basically means it is hard to get people to buy turrets and they are not really that useful except against bots (unless Support as upgraded them).
3) I wish Support could upgrade more turrets at once. Even four, instead of barely managing three if you stay on top of them, would go a long way to making upgrading turrets worth it.
4) Still loving this game.


Side note: Been playing with the sniper changes (less damage to non-headshots). I think that helped a lot. Snipers are still killers, but not destroying everyone now.

[Mazuo]

How's the armor nerf to assassins and snipers? Was already annoying that assassins could get out of any combat at any time, but more when you shot them repeatedly only to see their health barely move because they had gold armor on.

[rossm]

I tried playing last night, and could only find 5 servers. only one wasn't empty.

[pilonv1]

Maybe the Steam free weekend will help?

[TurinTur]

I tried playing last night, and could only find 5 servers. only one wasn't empty.

I checked how many people is playing the game yesterday, to see if it would be a possible buy this weekend, and steam stats indicated 1700 players in that exact moment.

Not a lot, but a lil more than 5 servers.

[lordkosc]

Yep , this game needs new maps, ASAP , and not just 1 map every few months, I mean a super injection of at least 5-6 maps added to the rotation.

I really can't see why each "arena" can't have 2-3 varieties of a map.

[Nathan Phoenix]

the problem with snipers wasn't non-headshot damage to begin with. Every time I try to play this I can't stand to be in game for more than 10 minutes because of constantly getting raped by shots to the face.

[Matt Perkins]

the problem with snipers wasn't non-headshot damage to begin with. Every time I try to play this I can't stand to be in game for more than 10 minutes because of constantly getting raped by shots to the face.
Yeah, that is one of the things you learn more in this game than any other. Never stand still. There is no reason for it. Unless you are actively deployed as a Tank or a Gunner (and I never like doing this as either of them except for short periods of time), you should never be standing still. Some nice Assassin or Sniper will be sure to show you why not if you do...

I found snipers a lot better now that they can not one shot me so easily and I do not see them leading the score on most every match now.



The servers are indeed packed again. A whole influx of people. They were badly needed and I hope some of them stick around. It got to the point where there were so few servers that pinged good that I was starting to know people even though I only logged in sporadically...

[SamF7]

Actually had some interesting games last night. LOTS of new players on last night (assassins not cloaking, everyone standing still for too long). After a game or two, the higher rank players all agreed to switch to classes we suck at.

Hilarity ensued.

Rank 4 snipers who couldn't hit the far side of a barn...
Assaults who couldn't find the "bomb" key (me)...
Engineers fumbling with their abilities...

The rounds ended with just about everyone at 50%/50% kill/death ratios.

SamF7

[Telefrog]

Yep , this game needs new maps, ASAP , and not just 1 map every few months, I mean a super injection of at least 5-6 maps added to the rotation.

I really can't see why each "arena" can't have 2-3 varieties of a map.

It's gotta be tough at this point to compete with TF2. TF2 has a ton of maps and modes, countless user mods, and regularly goes on sale for $5.

MNC's gameplay is different in that it's a mix of shooter and tower defense, but the comparison (unfair or not) is always there. I feel bad for anyone that releases on Steam with a game that basically competes for the same audience as TF2.

[Alstein]

There's plenty of TF2 players who were disenchanted by the change to an FTP hat simulator from what it was, I think MNC has captured some of those folks.

I do think the game needs an expansion at some point- for more maps/classes/content in general.

[AaronSofaer]

This game is stupidly fun.

[Wthermans]

I've been playing it religiously since release. Up to level 90 and really enjoy playing Gunner (I love those Mortars). LazeRazor Arena is probably my favorite map.

[AaronSofaer]

I've only played Blitz so far, but Assault is definitely my favorite. The combination of Charge, Grapple (from the grenade launcher), and the bomb are just awesomely entertaining, and who doesn't love midair jetpack charges?

I do hate buzzers, though. With a burning, fiery passion.

[Matt Perkins]

I agree with the phrase, "stupidly fun". It is very much that.


I tried MNC because I have friends that worked on it. I stayed because the game is sweet. Really love all of the options. I just wish they would balance it more towards a tower defense game a bit.

My favorite class is Support, much like Engie was in TF2. But Support in MNC is about twice the Engie is/was. He can cautiously push forward an be a front line guy, he can control flow points very easily and he is can make everyone around him better. I do wish I got assists for healing a guy when he kills someone. Seems like an oversight to me.

Beyond that, I play Assault next. Then Gunner, then Tank.


TF2 == boring now that 50% of the gameplay is trading/crafting. Bluh.

[Strato]

There's plenty of TF2 players who were disenchanted by the change to an FTP hat simulator from what it was, I think MNC has captured some of those folks.

I do think the game needs an expansion at some point- for more maps/classes/content in general.

You can put me into that group of TF2 players who left. Plus over a thousand hours later, it was time to part ways.

I haven't played the game in a couple of weeks now based on where I am, but personally I am enjoying the Assault class. I've since learnt to stop trying to grapple assasins when they have grappled one of my team members, and simply throw a bomb at them so once they've done their thing, I can just fire it off and at the very least, teach them a lesson. Otherwise, I probably get more player kills with the grapple than I do with my weapons.

[Sander 001]

My favorite class is Support, much like Engie was in TF2. But Support in MNC is about twice the Engie is/was. He can cautiously push forward an be a front line guy, he can control flow points very easily and he is can make everyone around him better. I do wish I got assists for healing a guy when he kills someone. Seems like an oversight to me.You should've seen Support before he got nerfed: It was glorious!
I didn't find him overpowered at all so I never played again after they clipped his nuts. ~sad face~

[Strato]

A juiced support is a wonderous thing I have to admit. Well, except if it is on the other team.

[rossm]

Can we revisit class builds and strategy a bit? I could use some advice.

With balance changes in patches, have endorsement builds changed as well? I've noticed assassins killing my gunner in a single grapple sometimes. What can I do about that? My gunner's endorsements are: rate of fire, armor, accuracy. I don't remember why I chose those; I probably read it somewhere in this thread?

With gunner I use mortar most of the time, either against bots or long range players. Not unless somebody is very close do I switch to the minigun. For upgrades I max out minigun/mortar first, then slam. Then I usually put the rest of my money in turrets and gorilla spawns. Sometimes I buy long range turrets, sometimes rockit. I'm never really sure what to do with juice except to survive an encounter with a player, or kill a turret/firebase more quickly with mortar. Sometimes I use it and make a suicide run on a downed moneyball with the minigun, but I'm not sure how effective that is. I never use deploy.

I have a lot of trouble as assassin. Landing a grapple can be tough on a moving target, and people always see or hear me when I'm cloaked. Even if I do get a grapple, it often doesn't kill them and I die immediately after. Lunge is great, but I usually use it to escape or kill bots. I buy the sword upgrade, then cloak, then the rest go to turrets or juice (which I don't know how to use very well). My endorsements are armor, speed, skill recovery.

My Support is even worse. Honestly turrets don't seem that good in this game, as most classes have a way to kill them from a safe distance. But I usually play the defensive game, keeping turrets and players topped off and hacking. I try to place my firebase in a spot that will help push bots and kill players without being sniped from long range, but it's tough. I don't often use the airstrike except on bots, and I try to avoid confronting other players. I'm not sure which upgrades to get, but I usually grab hack and firebase, and spend a lot of money on turrets. I feel very ineffective. Endorsements: rate of fire, skill recovery, speed.

Also, sometimes it seems like the other team gets a double bot spawn. Is there some way to cause that? Like earlier they had 2 jackbots coming right behind one another, against our single jackbot. I see it with black jacks as well.

[Matt Perkins]

With gunner I use mortar most of the time, either against bots or long range players. Not unless somebody is very close do I switch to the minigun. For upgrades I max out minigun/mortar first, then slam. Then I usually put the rest of my money in turrets and gorilla spawns. Sometimes I buy long range turrets, sometimes rockit. I'm never really sure what to do with juice except to survive an encounter with a player, or kill a turret/firebase more quickly with mortar. Sometimes I use it and make a suicide run on a downed moneyball with the minigun, but I'm not sure how effective that is. I never use deploy.

My Gunner build is this, RoF, Ammo, Speed. Makes me a very versatile killing machine. My mini literally sprays down the battle field. I use the mortar for long range sniper kills (one or two suped up mortar shots can kill them from across a map) or cause chaos in bot/people battle. The high ground is very important. Stay away from long corridors and/or open areas. I like mid to close range for the Gunner best honestly. That way I can just let loose with the Mini and mowed things down before they even have a chance. RoF along with Ammo means I deal a lot of damage for a long time. Speed is so I can run away faster.



My Support is even worse. Honestly turrets don't seem that good in this game, as most classes have a way to kill them from a safe distance. But I usually play the defensive game, keeping turrets and players topped off and hacking. I try to place my firebase in a spot that will help push bots and kill players without being sniped from long range, but it's tough. I don't often use the airstrike except on bots, and I try to avoid confronting other players. I'm not sure which upgrades to get, but I usually grab hack and firebase, and spend a lot of money on turrets. I feel very ineffective. Endorsements: rate of fire, skill recovery, speed.

I like to think I have become pretty good with support. It definitely depends on the level, but the trick is this... put your Gun as far in the field as you can where you can protect it and hack it. If you can not do those things, then you have it in the wrong place. It depends on your team a LOT. Sometimes I will play a gun as a forward point, hack it, charge it up only to find my team is pushing beyond it, so I have to wait for my hack charge to go back up and then place it again farther a field.

But most times, I end up placing it near a turret I can upgrade also. Rocket Turret, upgraded to at least level 2 hack, is a great backup system. If I am in the area of both guns, even Assassins have to leave me alone or they just die when they kill me.

Then, once I have a base established, I push forward. Yeah, the Support is that bad ass. He can not stand toe to toe with a ready Gunner or Assault or Tank, but if they are busy or can be pushed around by me Air Strike (as most everyone can), I can use that to get close and finish them with my shotgun. That thing is incredibly powerful and it has made me lead the score rankings in kills more than a few times. No one expects it, since I am just a cute little Support, but two shots kills most anyone except a Tank or Gunner and it is only a couple of more for them.

RoF, Skill Recharge, Speed are my favorite Endorsements at the moment for Support.



Also, sometimes it seems like the other team gets a double bot spawn. Is there some way to cause that? Like earlier they had 2 jackbots coming right behind one another, against our single jackbot. I see it with black jacks as well.
Yeah, I would like to know this too.



I probably get pretty similar stats with the Gunner and Support. Either top three or above almost always, especially with the influx of n00bs. ;)

But the best class to play is the Assault. He is SO versatile, I kill two or three people at a time often. I play with the default Endorsements because I can not find a better set than the defaults.. The trick is, withdraw, withdraw, withdraw. Why? Because you have the strongest weapons in the game, you just need to have people walk into them. The grenade launcher does SO MUCH DAMAGE. You can aim it around corners, have the grenade bounce along the ground for crowd control, hit two or three people at once, and basically just make yourself a serious nusance for map control.

Heading into a fight? Guess where that fight is going to go and throw a your sticky grenade there first. Then when you are both spinning and trying to hit each other, they are almost assuredly going to cross the boundary. You then get immediate damage and DoT along with shooting them. Whenever fightnig any people up close, always use the rifle. Never stay close to a Gunner or a Tank. Unless you can charge them and hit them away, other wise, pull back and let them come at you through your rifle.

The Assualt is probably my favorite class over any other class in any game ever.


Biggest tip for this game is to withdraw instead of dying. Run away, recharge, fight again another day. When you have two evenly matched teams, battefield and bot control is twice as important as losing or winning the pvp matches. Those are secondary. If you withdraw from them, recharge and head back smarter and from a different approach, you will not only hold off them gaining control, you will give up less money for bots and turrets on their side.

This strategy comes directly from Demigod and it has been a god send for me. I went from dying the most or close to it, or dying 0-5 times a match tops.

[lordkosc]

Matt were you playing Gunner , lastnight?

I forget what server I was on....

I came across one with your listed build, and it was infuriating how many times he killed me, and in 3-4 seconds. :p

[SamF7]

Two more tip for Gunner-Dudes:

1) HOLD DOWN THAT RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON!
Unlike TF2, the minigun doesn't make a lot of NOISE while spinning up, but it DOES take time to spin up. By holding down the right mouse button to "pre-spin" the gun in the right situations, I went from losing LOTS of 1:1 fights against other gunners to winning the vast majority of them.

* About to head up an elevator? Pre-spin that mini before heading up.
* About to round a corner? Pre-spin that mutha.

Dual mini's at point blank will shred anything in seconds flat. Most folks think you are a hacker with how fast you can kill with the minis. It's all about the pre-spin, baby!

2) ASSASSIN SLAM!
If, like me, you are absolutely sick of assassins, go Gunner. When you hear that distinctive whine of an assassin nearby, hit the slam buttom, turn around, and SPRAY. The assassin is generally stunned with the little birdies over their heads and is easy to mow down. I have almost as many assassin kills as other kills combined.

I tend to look at the player-board before a match begins, and if the other team has x2 assassins (or one really good assassin that I know from previous games), I'll actually upgrade slam 1 notch before leaving the spawn (otherwise I upgrade my guns once now, and again ASAP).

Honestly, Gunner with the Slam is the "Anti-Assassin" class of the game. Use it, abuse it, love it.

Snipers are still the bane of my existence.

SamF7

[Matt Perkins]

Matt were you playing Gunner , lastnight?

I forget what server I was on....

I came across one with your listed build, and it was infuriating how many times he killed me, and in 3-4 seconds. :p
Yeah, I was for a bit, but there are a lot of us. I am 'wzrd' online.

I tried that build on my, but another that has intrigued me though I have not made it work well is Crit, Ammo, RoF. I have seen people just destroy with that, but I have not been able to make it work for me.

[Matt Perkins]

Two more tip for Gunner-Dudes:

1) HOLD DOWN THAT RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON!

I am moving around so much as a Gunner, I hardly even using the right mouse button...



2) ASSASSIN SLAM!
Honestly, Gunner with the Slam is the "Anti-Assassin" class of the game. Use it, abuse it, love it.

Agree completely. I used to think Assault was the best anti Assassin, but that Slam is just beautiful and amazing. I use that all the time.



Snipers are still the bane of my existence.

Amen, good sir, amen. Switch to an Assault, go fly in from a direction they are not expecting, destroy. It is fun love. :D



GUNNER COMPLAINT:
Melee? Really? I already have slam. I can literally jump on people's heads, mario style (nice touch btw). What do I need with melee or even upgraded melee? I use that next to never. Seems to be the most useless skill in the game. If someone is next to me and I am going for a melee attack, it is because I am out of ammo and out of slam. No other time.

[Alstein]

Tanks to me are better assassin killers then Gunners. They're a little faster, and can survive a back grapple (and lvl 3 charge can often 1-shot an assassin if they don't get out of the way immediately, so they don't go for the kill all that often). On top of that , spin catches them trying to get around you, and 2 spins will kill an assassin.

The problem with tanks is snipers and gunners. You have to sneak up on gunners, and you're not sneaky, and you have a hard time getting in-close to snipers with traps out.

[Wthermans]

Gunner grapple is awesome. Not enough people give the skill credit. Perfect for those times a Sin face grapples you. Level 3 grapple will one shot most sins and level 2 leaves them damaged enough to throw out a quick slam.

Nothing is funnier than skill grappling someone, then mortar grappling them immediately after, then throwing down a slam.

[AaronSofaer]

Well, I had fun in the free weekend, but sadly, I'm not going to be buying it.

... it's shallow, I know. But I just can't stand the gyrating cleavage. :( My friends and I appreciate the gameplay, but it's just too... sophmoric.

[Fishbreath]

I'd been waiting for an MNC free weekend for a long time. I ended up getting three of my friends to buy it too. *fistshake* at everyone sharing their assassin-killing tips. It already got way harder after the free players left, and I'm not really very good at any of the other classes. :P

[Matt Perkins]

Gunner grapple is awesome. Not enough people give the skill credit. Perfect for those times a Sin face grapples you. Level 3 grapple will one shot most sins and level 2 leaves them damaged enough to throw out a quick slam.

Nothing is funnier than skill grappling someone, then mortar grappling them immediately after, then throwing down a slam.
Meh. I do not get enough time to do three grapples before someone else is shooting me...

I would point to Gunner Grapple as the only really not worth upgrading skill in the game.

[Matt Perkins]

Well, I had fun in the free weekend, but sadly, I'm not going to be buying it.

... it's shallow, I know. But I just can't stand the gyrating cleavage. :( My friends and I appreciate the gameplay, but it's just too... sophmoric.
It is silly, but that kills the game for you? Did you refuse to by Dragon Age 2 for the same reasons? Did you also pass on most every FPS released in the past 10 years? GTA4 (and probably before) were definitely out, right?

I am just saying, that seems like a silly detail to stop you from liking a game overall. But to be fair, to each their own.

[Wthermans]

Meh. I do not get enough time to do three grapples before someone else is shooting me...

I would point to Gunner Grapple as the only really not worth upgrading skill in the game.
I don't agree at all. IMO Deploy is worse.

Also, I only highlighted the Double Grapple + Slam combo to highlight the hilarity. The real advantage of grapple is the ability to KO facestabbing Sins, avoid Tank/Assault Charge and neutralizing Juice Rushes. It's purely a defensive ability and used as such is extremely powerful.

[Shellfishguy]

While I agree that its silly and it doesn't kill the game for me, it does keep me from booting this up while the kids are awake. I wouldn't mind seeing it go.

[SamF7]

Heh, Level 75, mostly Gunner, and I had FORGOTTEN that the gunner actually has an ability to GRAPPLE (shows how often I use it)!!

Started messing with it a bit last night - it's actually not bad. As one of the previous posters said, it's the "Go-To" ability when being charged from the front by an Assassin, Assault, or Heavy. I used to try to use the Right-Click-Mortar-Grapple, but as you can figure, 9 times out of 10 I don't have the Mortar out, and would usually finger-fumble trying to switch to Mortar before right clicking (resulting in me dying most times).

Last Night I started mucking with the ABILITY Grapple!! - Now which key did I map that too? Very nice indeed. Also, it doesn't matter which weapon you have out - it GRAPPLES!!

An instant grapple followed by a slam ends most face-charging threats easily.

Damn - another ability to soak up my $$'s during a game. I actually kinda LIKED the gunners lack of abilities to pour money into, as I was generally upgrading my teams turrets long before my other teammates.

I never put a point into lockdown, still.

SamF7

[Matt Perkins]

I don't agree at all. IMO Deploy is worse.

Also, I only highlighted the Double Grapple + Slam combo to highlight the hilarity. The real advantage of grapple is the ability to KO facestabbing Sins, avoid Tank/Assault Charge and neutralizing Juice Rushes. It's purely a defensive ability and used as such is extremely powerful.
I guess to each their own, but for me I use Deploy a fair amount. Get a good vantage point, see a few guys. Deploy, do double mini guns of power, cut down some fools, undeploy and find another spot now that they have focused on you. Plus, you are unable to be grappled while deployed, so if an Assassin starts attacking you, just undeploy, Slam, finish off.

Grapple, on the other hand, is the lesser cousin to Slam in every way except for creating distance, once upgraded between me and the guy I am killing. As a Gunner, I do not want distance. If I do upgrade that skill, I almost never upgrade it to the final unless I am just out of things to spend money on.

*shrugs*. I have Slam, it is area affect and stuns...other than being available while Slam is recharging, what other advantage does it give me?

[Matt Perkins]

Heh, Level 75, mostly Gunner, and I had FORGOTTEN that the gunner actually has an ability to GRAPPLE (shows how often I use it)!!

Started messing with it a bit last night - it's actually not bad. As one of the previous posters said, it's the "Go-To" ability when being charged from the front by an Assassin, Assault, or Heavy. I used to try to use the Right-Click-Mortar-Grapple, but as you can figure, 9 times out of 10 I don't have the Mortar out, and would usually finger-fumble trying to switch to Mortar before right clicking (resulting in me dying most times).

Last Night I started mucking with the ABILITY Grapple!! - Now which key did I map that too? Very nice indeed. Also, it doesn't matter which weapon you have out - it GRAPPLES!!

An instant grapple followed by a slam ends most face-charging threats easily.

Damn - another ability to soak up my $$'s during a game. I actually kinda LIKED the gunners lack of abilities to pour money into, as I was generally upgrading my teams turrets long before my other teammates.

I never put a point into lockdown, still.

SamF7
Lockdown? Deploy, you mean? If so, I can not believe more people do not use this skill. While Grapple might have some uses in some cases, Deploy is a dream for dealing damage and surviving, if done correctly.

Incorrect way to Deploy:
Stand out in the open for any long period of time. See previous rules about always moving. Standing anywhere a sniper can see, even if you are fully upgraded (and hence have headshot protection), it still only a few shots and most snipers can finish you off before you can UnDeploy.

Correct way to Deploy:
Find a fire fight with multiple people involved. Find a good vantage point. Deploy, use doubled up mini guns to literally cut everyone and anything down. UnDeploy, skadaddle away.

Double mini guns is a HUGE advantage...

[Alstein]

For Tanks you want to use the deploy to gain health. You don't really gain much of a firefight advantage. It can be used on laser blazers to gain juice, though I consider that too risky unless the other team is completely unaware. Lvl 3 Tank Deploy refills ammo, though I don't consider that a big deal, lvl 2 deploy is worth getting usually.

For tank skills, I rate lvl 3 charge and lvl 3 health most important, lvl 3 grenade can be more important then charge situationally (lots of gunners/assaults)

Lvl 2 grenade is vital for its stunning of jackbots and turrets- your main job as a tank is to take care of jackbots, bots and turrets. Players are almost secondary.

Gunner deploy is headshot immune, tank deploy isn't.

[AaronSofaer]

It is silly, but that kills the game for you? Did you refuse to by Dragon Age 2 for the same reasons? Did you also pass on most every FPS released in the past 10 years? GTA4 (and probably before) were definitely out, right?

I am just saying, that seems like a silly detail to stop you from liking a game overall. But to be fair, to each their own.


Yes, yes, and yes.

And definitely. :)

The only FPS I've bought in the last few years is ... TF2. Other games I own: Altitude, Magicka, Alien Swarm, World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, and the Humble Bundles.

[Matt Perkins]

Heh, was curious... In that case, I give my stamp approval to your decision! :P


Me, it does not bother so much. I even let the kids watch this game, where I did not let them watch TF2 since it less cartoony in it's violence in parts. The breasts mostly covered, while silly, do not have me shy away me or my kids. Last I checked, something like 50% of the population has them and I am not scared of them.*






* - much!

[lordkosc]

I am sure it higher than 50% if you count in man boobs.

:D

[AaronSofaer]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*

[Matt Perkins]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*
You sir, are completely and totally right.

[Strato]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*

Completely agree with you too.

Personally for me though, it was just a loading screen, and only fills a small part of the game.

[Wthermans]

I guess to each their own, but for me I use Deploy a fair amount. Get a good vantage point, see a few guys. Deploy, do double mini guns of power, cut down some fools, undeploy and find another spot now that they have focused on you. Plus, you are unable to be grappled while deployed, so if an Assassin starts attacking you, just undeploy, Slam, finish off.

Grapple, on the other hand, is the lesser cousin to Slam in every way except for creating distance, once upgraded between me and the guy I am killing. As a Gunner, I do not want distance. If I do upgrade that skill, I almost never upgrade it to the final unless I am just out of things to spend money on.

*shrugs*. I have Slam, it is area affect and stuns...other than being available while Slam is recharging, what other advantage does it give me?
Slam is easily avoidable. Grapple isn't. If you try to Slam a Sin that just face-grappled you, most of the time they're just going to jump your Slam.

While you may miss the Grapple when they jump (as you can't grapple a target that's in mid-air), it doesn't reset your skill timer like it would if you had used Slam. Plus Grapple does far more damage than Slam. IIRC it's one of the highest damage Grapples in the game.

As for Deploy, I just find that anytime I meet a Gunner using Deploy, I'll just corner mortar them to death or until they undeploy. And from long range, mortar will wreck a deployed Gunner.

As for Deploy making you invulnerable to Grapple (and level 3 blocking Headshots), a good Sin will just Shuri you to death at range. One clip will unload and kill you faster than you can either kill the Sin or undeploy. Deployed Gunner/Tank = easy Shuri kill. Likewise, a Sniper doesn't need to land a headshot on a target that takes almost 2 seconds to start moving again. With Gold ROF, the Sniper will get off his 3 shots to KO you faster than you can undeploy.

That said, I do think Deploy is a great situational weapon. As you stated, it's great for causing chaos in a crowd of distracted opponents. The slow alone will lead to some easy kills. Deploy is also really great when you face another Gunner unexpectedly in close to Medium Range, the Crit really turns the tide in your favor during these duels.


For Tanks you want to use the deploy to gain health. You don't really gain much of a firefight advantage. It can be used on laser blazers to gain juice, though I consider that too risky unless the other team is completely unaware. Lvl 3 Tank Deploy refills ammo, though I don't consider that a big deal, lvl 2 deploy is worth getting usually.

For tank skills, I rate lvl 3 charge and lvl 3 health most important, lvl 3 grenade can be more important then charge situationally (lots of gunners/assaults)

Lvl 2 grenade is vital for its stunning of jackbots and turrets- your main job as a tank is to take care of jackbots, bots and turrets. Players are almost secondary.

Gunner deploy is headshot immune, tank deploy isn't.

I like Tank deploy more than Gunner deploy (at least Level 2 Tank Deploy). The health regen is great when you don't have a Support on your team (or just have one that is too busy to heal you). I agree about level 3 Health and level 3 Charge being most important. I usually upgrade those ASAP.

My upgrade paths are...

Tank: Health 2, Charge 2, Charge 3, Health 3, Product Grenade 2, Product Grenade 3, Deploy 2, turret/bot spam

Gunner: Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, Grapple 2, Slam 2, Grapple 3, Slam 3, turret/bot spam, Deploy 2

Assassin: Blade 2, Blade 3, Cloak 2, Cloak 3, Dash 2, Smoke Bomb 2, Smoke Bomb 3, Dash 3, turret/bot spam

Assault: Crit/Jump 2, Bomb 2, Charge 2, Bomb 3, Crit/Jump 3, Charge 3, Flight 2, Flight 3, turret/bot spam

Support: Turret 2, Hack 2, Artillery 2, Hack 3, Turret 3, Artillery 3, Bot Heal 2, Bot Heal 3, turret/bot spam

Sniper: Sniper Rifle 2, Trap 2, Sniper Rifle 3, Trap 3, Grapple 2, Flak 2, Flak 3, Grapple 3, turret/bot spam

[Matt Perkins]

Slam is easily avoidable. Grapple isn't. If you try to Slam a Sin that just face-grappled you, most of the time they're just going to jump your Slam.

To each their own play style. I always go for the AOE first. :)


I like Tank deploy more than Gunner deploy (at least Level 2 Tank Deploy). The health regen is great when you don't have a Support on your team (or just have one that is too busy to heal you). I agree about level 3 Health and level 3 Charge being most important. I usually upgrade those ASAP.

I honestly do not get Deploying as a Tank. I use the rail gun then? Meh. The Tank appears to be all about close range to me. I do not play them a lot though and really never deploy as them when I do.



My upgrade paths are...

Tank: Health 2, Charge 2, Charge 3, Health 3, Product Grenade 2, Product Grenade 3, Deploy 2, turret/bot spam

Pretty much the same here.



Gunner: Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, Grapple 2, Slam 2, Grapple 3, Slam 3, turret/bot spam, Deploy 2

See, I go Gun 2, Deploy 2 right out of the gate. That gives me some serious health and guns that most others can not match right out of the gate.



Assault: Crit/Jump 2, Bomb 2, Charge 2, Bomb 3, Crit/Jump 3, Charge 3, Flight 2, Flight 3, turret/bot spam

I go Crit 2, Charge 2. I kill so many people with Charge, and use it to escape, that I upgrade that asap. After Charge 2, I do Charge 3 or Bomb 2, depends. Jump is always last... On many maps it is not useful...



Support: Turret 2, Hack 2, Artillery 2, Hack 3, Turret 3, Artillery 3, Bot Heal 2, Bot Heal 3, turret/bot spam

Have to go Turret 2/Hack 2 out of the gate, right? Gives you so much fire power at the start. Then I upgrade everything 2, usually, then hit Turret 3, then Hack 3 or Artie three, depending upon the situation and map.



Sniper: Sniper Rifle 2, Trap 2, Sniper Rifle 3, Trap 3, Grapple 2, Flak 2, Flak 3, Grapple 3, turret/bot spam
I never ever play a sniper. They are evil incarnate!

[Matt Perkins]

Balance issues I see with MNC:

Turrets are just too easy to kill when Juiced. I get that a level three 3 turret is a beast, especially when hacked...but it is not much of a beast if it costs $1050 and can be taken down for $400 (juice).

Support can not hack turrets fast enough. If I stay on top of it, I can keep about three turrets, including my own, hacked. Maybe it is just a preference thing, but since turrets are so easy to take out, I usually have two of them near each other hacked and my gun near them, so they protect each other a bit. Would be nice if I could hack a couple more to protect them and my base better...

[Alstein]

Juice is 500 or a good bit of effort, and some classes have a much easier time then others at taking down turrets- tanks and assassins do it best.

A Juiced tank will take down at least one turret every time, and can easily take down 2 if not slowed down.

On my tank order: it's a little different

It's usually

Tank 2, Charge 2, Deploy 2- Grenade 2 -Charge 3- Tank 3 situational, Grenade 3. I don't bother with Deploy 3, saving the money for juices/turrets more useful.

BTW Tank Deploy is for healing. Yeah tank is for close range. Your long range option is grenade to charge in or to nail someone being stupid, or railguns when getting close isn't smart.

[Matt Perkins]

Juice is 500 or a good bit of effort, and some classes have a much easier time then others at taking down turrets- tanks and assassins do it best.

Fair enough that it takes more effort for some than others...but what class cannot destroy at least one turret when Juiced?



A Juiced tank will take down at least one turret every time, and can easily take down 2 if not slowed down.

I have seen both Assassins and Tanks, along with Assault and Gunners, take down 3 turrets at different times. Maybe not always, but often enough.

So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.


Just too easy for the cost level involved...

[Wade42]

I finally caved and bought the PC version during the weekend sale, despite already owning on XBLA. I found a QT3 MNC group and joined. Feel free to ping me on steam (or Live, even) if you want to play.

Turret Vunerability
As far as turret health goes, I'd rather they be a bit too weak than a bit too strong. This has a few different effects:
1) Turrets alone are not an adequate base defense.
2) Stalemates happen less often.
3) Distracting Juiced players becomes a high priority.


So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.
This may simply mean that spending all of your money on base defense is not the best choice. If their bots can't get to your base, then what do you need turrets for, anyway?

I rarely upgrade base turrets. Upgraded turrets are nice, but they only help you not lose; other than that, they don't help you win. Then again, I'm not super awesome at the game, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

Tank Build Order:
My tank order is a bit different:
Tank: Product Grenade 2, Deploy 2, Product Grenade 3, Health 2, Charge 2, then bot/turret/upgrade/annihilate as needed...

As mentioned above, Deploy 2 is essential for the health regen.

I'm a fan of the Product Grenade (esp lvl 3). It's great for taking down turrets, large bot groups/Jackbot, and distracting juiced players.

Gunner Build Order:
Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, and the rest is up for grabs. I finish some games at upgrade level 1/1/1/3, since I'm spending money on bots/turrets/annihilator/juice.

[Matt Perkins]

Turret Vunerability
As far as turret health goes, I'd rather they be a bit too weak than a bit too strong. This has a few different effects:
1) Turrets alone are not an adequate base defense.

No, they definitely are not, and they should not be on their own


2) Stalemates happen less often.

I see stalemates constantly. Overtime is more likely than not on most maps.


3) Distracting Juiced players becomes a high priority.

It is already a huge priority, turrets in the vacinity or not.



This may simply mean that spending all of your money on base defense is not the best choice. If their bots can't get to your base, then what do you need turrets for, anyway?

I rarely upgrade base turrets. Upgraded turrets are nice, but they only help you not lose; other than that, they don't help you win. Then again, I'm not super awesome at the game, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.
Yeah, that was kind of my point. Turrets are not worth the money they cost currently. So many do not bother.

I am not saying we need to completely revamp, or even change regular damage. Just make it so they take say 50% less damage (number out of my butt, testing/balance would have occur) from Juiced players.

Currently, one player comes in and destroy all of the base defenses. One player. No need for team work or anything else, they either buy or get Juice and walk through all defense. That does not work for me.

[Matt Perkins]

Gunner Build Order:
Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, and the rest is up for grabs. I finish some games at upgrade level 1/1/1/3, since I'm spending money on bots/turrets/annihilator/juice.
Oh, and I see why you never use Slam...because you never upgrade it! :P

I like all of the talk of differing play styles. I like that a lot about this game.

I shall be on tonight for at least a bit most likely. I am 'wzrd' on Steam.

[rossm]

I often feel bad for all the money I'm destroying as a gunner, because very little can stop me from easily wrecking the enemy's turrets on most maps. Especially if they don't have a sniper, as I can usually find a high wall to fly on top of and lob mortars to the other side of the map.

[Alstein]

Fair enough that it takes more effort for some than others...but what class cannot destroy at least one turret when Juiced?


I have seen both Assassins and Tanks, along with Assault and Gunners, take down 3 turrets at different times. Maybe not always, but often enough.

So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.


Just too easy for the cost level involved...

A tank isn't going to take down 3 lvl 3 turrets. 1 lvl 3 yes. Pre-patch 2 if not bothered while doing it.

A tank can even be killed while juiced by 2 lvl 3's if grappled.

What the tank excels in is taking out lvl 1-2 turrets while not juiced or taking serious damage.

[Wade42]

I get what you're saying about turrets, I just don't find it that game-breaking. I've played games where we've been steamrolled by teams with no base defense. Our bots never made it through, so it didn't matter. It is frustrating when you're the turret monkey, though, yeah.

Oh, and I see why you never use Slam...because you never upgrade it! :P

I like all of the talk of differing play styles. I like that a lot about this game.

I shall be on tonight for at least a bit most likely. I am 'wzrd' on Steam.
I upgrade Slam far more often than Deploy or Grapple, but it's usually not a priority unless Assassins are a problem... I try to engage at medium/long range while playing Gunner. (Yeah, yeah, and Slam helps keep them at medium/long range. :) )

Agreed on the play styles (the talk and the game allowing them).


I often feel bad for all the money I'm destroying as a gunner, because very little can stop me from easily wrecking the enemy's turrets on most maps. Especially if they don't have a sniper, as I can usually find a high wall to fly on top of and lob mortars to the other side of the map.
Triple split mortar is so very effective. Playing gunner for me is like a combination of the TF2 Heavy and the Tribes Heavy... me likey.

[Wthermans]

My biggest problem with Turrets is that if your team doesn't have a Support and gets pushed back, it's a major PITA to keep them up. But I don't have a problem with that because if you're missing a support class, then your extra offensive class should mean that you never get pushed back.

I'm really enjoy the gameplay discussion. Exchanging opinions and ideas about how you play a class is always productive. Really allows me to examine how I play and see what I can implement.

[Matt Perkins]

Really like the lighting changes, very nice. The new balance changes seems pretty nifty too... Though I am barely keeping a 3 star rating now, so the rating system just be broken. :P

The new Bouncer strength is great. Makes for havoc. Just wish the other summoned bots were half as good as the Bouncer.

Did something change with turrets and are they lasting longer now? Seems like they are, but could just be wishful thinking and circumstances over the past couple of games too...


Thanks for all of the hardwork, Uber!

[Strato]

I was playing this on the weekend and I have to say that Support may now be my new favourite class to play. He really stood out when the LazeRazor map would roll around, and getting the firebase into the oppositions starting area. I'd do this cheese tactic everytime and it worked. It is too easy to hack the turret and keep it overhealed. If things heat up, retreat to the middle with the shotgun handy, and anyway who chases will be finding themselves in a cramped close quarter position. And of course, the other side rushes out, and the firebase mows them down.

I think it is SteelPeel arena that this tactic was applicable to. One tactic the team will do is camp the top ramp that overlooks the base. Getting a gunner up there with a mortar is dangerous as he will knock down all of the rocket turrets that the game builds from the start for the team. Of course, the airstrike ability then comes into its own - aim it below the ramp and it will strike anyone sitting on top, pretty much one hit kills that no one sees coming.

One arena I can not work out with the Support though is the SpunkyCola arena. It just doesn't seem to be support friendly. It certainly is assault friendly though. One life I reached the point of getting $150 just from reaching some insane bot streak. Finished that game with well over 150 bot kills. The assaults charge is really useful in zipping in and out of combat on that map.

[SamF7]

New trick I learned last night as gunner:

After a few maps it was obvious that two of the better players were teaming up together on each map. They were good. Due to balancing issues I was always on the "other" team and those two working together were making it tough.

On the two maps with bot-pathways that run linear right and left (don't remember the name), it suddenly occurred to me to spawn a bouncer right as I started walking down the lane from spawn!

What fun! I would run into the Bopsy-twins right at the beginning of the match, start exchanging fire, when in would come charging my Bouncer-Bot! It was an easy matter to simply follow Mr. Bouncer in and hose those two down with the mini while they were wrestling with Bouncer-Bob.

Sure, it costs $100 right out the gate, but man, what a fun way to start a match!

Another quick tip: Always taunt right at the beginning of each match. The first taunt is $50. Follow on taunts are only worth a couple of bucks, so only that first taunt is worth the delay.

SamF7

[Marcin]

Well, spurred by this thread I picked this up. I have just one question: WHY CAN'T I MOVE!?

*ahem*

Is this very lag dependent on performance? I can play single player maxed out fine, but when I join a server it's a slideshow. Not even exaggerating, I'm talking like 1 frame every 5 seconds. I lowered my options all the way down and it's still suffering.

Ideas?

[trivialthought]

Hey, I have this game, and I think it's great. I got one free 3-day pass with my purchase and I'd like to spread the buzz about the game.

[Matt Perkins]

Hey, I have this game, and I think it's great. I got one free 3-day pass with my purchase and I'd like to spread the buzz about the game.
The game is great, though I have been getting massive spikes in lag on my end, so I have not been playing as much.

What is really needs is more people. More maps and more DLC. /me tries to wait patiently. Fails!

[Strato]

I've put in about 50 hours now with Monday Night Combat and finally reached the point of getting bored with it. More maps probably won't do it for me though.

[Alstein]

It's at the I got nothing better to do stage, let's waste time stage. Kinda replaced TF2 for me. Will likely get replaced by the new Mount and Blade, unless an expansion comes.

[Chris Gwinn]

Are people mostly playing on XBox or PC? I have an itch to play this.

[Matt Perkins]

PC is the only way to roll.

[Wade42]

I own both versions. I'll throw in another vote for PC, unless you have friends playing the XBLA version.

[Matt Perkins]

This game still needs more players, but this past weekend was nice.

With the regular players in MNC, I oscillate between 3 and 4 star rating. With the new crowd, I up over four and can't stop. I am awesome against n00bs!


More MNC suggestions/ideas/questions:
Support:
- Am I mistaken in saying a Level 3 Hack last just a little bit longer than a Level 2 Hack or is just that just wishful thinking? Either way, if that could be improved a bit, it would being a defensive support much better. I already can't hack their turrets unless my team is either really good or their team is really bad. It just doesn't happen if other team is not fumbling all over them selves. And I can't place turret hubs, only my sentry, so it won't over balance offense. But it sure would be nice if upgrading to Level 3 Hack allowed me to even keep four things hacked.
- Hacked Long Shot turrets stop working about 50% of the time. Only started with the last patch. So annoying I have stopped hacking them, which sucks, because those used to be really helpful.
- Oh, can hacking generate some Juice? It is a skill, it takes awhile to do, often in combat, and it would be nice.
- LOVE SUPPORT. :D

Gunner:
- I'll bring it up again. Grapple is a completely wasted skill on this character. The best roll for a Gunner is either Long Range with their Mortar or Mid Range with their fully upgraded mini gun. Neither of those lends itself to needing a grapple. I go games and games in a row without ever touching it. It's still one of the few useless (opinion obviously) skills in the game. And they have Slam, which is a fantastic keep the the Assassins or Assaults away skill.

Assault:
- Just for fun, and because I fight so many Tanks as an Assault, any chance we can get the Charge, or even just a Level 3 Charge, to put out the Tanks fire? I am already at a huge disadvantage in close range with a Tank, maybe give just a small way to get away or take less damage. Especially since you took away a lot of the power of the grenade. :)

Funland:
- Took me awhile to warm up to this one, but I am liking it.
- Can we get some sort of solution to the bots being bottled up and destroyed so easily on that tunnel? I have seen MULTIPLE games where we are at the ball, we have destroyed all of the sentry guns and have them pretty bottled up, but are still unable to get any bots to the money ball because of the little tiny corridor.
- Chiki is cute, but hardly anyone pays attention to it because it set outside the gameplay. Ignored more often than not on most servers.


General:
- Really like the compromise on the new overtime rules. I like that even a little touch on your moneyball can be a win if the teams are evenly matched. Gives some incentive to really break though before the end of regulation.
- Love the new Juice setup too. Still super powered, but no longer able to handle a whole team. Means you have to be tactical with it instead of just pretending to be Optimus Prime for a few minutes. Great balance change.


Overall, think each patch has improved the game for the most part. That's hard to do (ask Relic) and I greatly appreciate that. According to Steam I have over 150 hours into this game. That topped TF2 for me.

Hope you guys plan on releasing more for it and absolutely loving the game.

[marxeil]

So this is now on the Steam sale for 2.5 of your local currency. Is it still being played?

[Wade42]

Yeah, there's still people on; plus a new influx thanks to the summer (and the previous daily) sale.

[Tman]

I really hope this sale can invigorate the game. The problem with this game, and it's more pronounced than other MP titles, is that newbies are fodder and will they stay long enough to learn the ropes. Everything and nothing is OP, but when you're a newbie trying out how to play for the first time, it can be daunting. Then there are the gods, who are simply amazing at this game and if you're on the opposite side of them, the frustration can go up exponentially.

They did try to solve that with the rating system - although I really haven't played since then, so not sure how it's solved that problem.

it's a great game, real fun and creative. The coop version is a hoot, and I'd volunteer playing that with whoever would like. It's a great way to learn the different builds.

[Matt Perkins]

Another thing about the rating system. As often as not, random teams are NOT balanced. The two guys with huge level ratings, and obvious 4+ star ratings, are often put on the same team.


But yes, being a newb in MNC is hard. There is a steep learning curve. The same one that went with Demigod. Maybe they should include a useful How To video on some of the classes.

Some Ideas:
How To: Play defensively while killing money and getting bots for needed upgrades
How To: Play a Support (from upgrading turrets, to creating kill zones with hacked turrets and your hacket turret)
How To: To kill Snipers. Over and over.*


There really is a lot of depth to the tactical game play that is not apparent from the beginning.



* - maybe a better title would be How To: Avoid Snipers, but really, I'd like to just erase them from the game all together.