Lost Dungeons of Norrath

[Mark Asher]

Anyone playing? Just curious to know what you think. This sounds like a nice expansion for EQ. I'm tempted to try EQ again just to check out the dungeons.

[Sharpe]

Actually I fired up EQ again last week and got this expansion when it came out. I've played a few adventures so far. I actually like a lot of things aobut LDON but I really HATE one feature: the adventures are timed :(.

LDON is "spawned content" - you go to a "Wayfarers Camp" (there are 5 of em, sprinkled in the old world of EQ) and your party leader talks to an NPC and choose an adventure type and a difficulty level (hard or fucking insanely hard). Then your party must travel to the dungeon entrance for that camp (usually in a neighboring zone) within 30 minutes. Once your party enters the zone you get a 90 minute timer to accomplish your goal, and the dungeon is spawned individually for your party (you need a minimum of 4 players, max of 6). The goals have several variations: 1) kill a certain boss NPC, 2) find a target friendly NPC and escort them out of the dungeon, 3)find a certain number of randomly-dropped loot items (like find 27 orc bone thingies). I think there's a 4th type I havent tried. The dungeons do not respawn behind you as you crawl through them: once you clear a room, it stays clear. So you get a real "dungeon crawl experience" and a feeling of accomplishment as you move through.

I've seen 3 of the 5 tilesets so far and they look pretty damn good. Theres an undead frog/swamp dungeon (frogloks are an EQ thing - its sort of an in-joke), a cool undead/vampire dungeon, a big rocky orc slave camp dungeon, and 2 more I haven't seen (Egyptian sand-elf motif and ice wizard/golem motif). Each "dungeon" is actually a tileset with 5 to 10 different layouts that can spawn depending on your adventure type and randomness. So you can play the same dungeon multiple times and get a different map and different monster distribution every time. I believe the monster types remain fairly constant but that may vary too. The level of monsters you encounter varies with the average level of your party and any level over 20 may enter. Your party can have a max level variance of 7 levels. So a high end party can be level 58 to 65 and a low end can be 20 to 27.

I really like the spawned content, the infinite random variation, the mission types, the idea that you don't have to compete with other players for content or deal with crowding. I also really like the idea that you can experience this content with any char over level 20.

However, I loathe the timers. They seem really tight (I've failed all 3 of my attempts thus far due to timers expiring) and also the idea of a timed run is just not EQ to me. EQ has always been a very deliberate kind of game, with a really deep tactial engine. The battles are extremely hard but winnable with careful setup and good tactics. LDON seems to ruin that by forcing you to fight fight fight fast fast fast.

Now maybe I just suck or have been in parties that didnt have enough offensive power. But thus far LDON seems like a great concept marred by one brutally bad design feature. I'll probably give it a couple more tries though, just to see if its more fun if we actually win the adventure :0.

Dan

[Mark Asher]

Interesting. Thanks. SOE probably has stats on the dungeon adventures, so if too many groups are unsuccessful, maybe they will relax the time requirements.

It certainly sounds like the expansion has added some nice new content at least. EQ really is the king of content among MMOG games.

[Rywill]

EQ really is the king of content among MMOG games.
I haven't played all MMOs, but I've played a lot (EQ, DAOC, AO, SB, WW2OL and PlanetSide, plus the free AC1 beta or whatever it was). I have to agree with Mark here. Most folks who came after EQ did a decent to good job giving a better play system, but nobody has ever come close to them in terms of content. And not just because EQ had a big head-start; even if you just look at what EQ had when it released versus what other games did, or where EQ was one year out versus where other games were, EQ is always way ahead as nearly as I can tell. I wish other people would put out tons of content like that--one of the fun things about a MMO is the massive, diverse world that you can't get in a single-player game.

[Xemu]

Yeah, I have to admit this has me reconsidering reactivating my EQ account.... again. Not that I've ever stuck with it enough to get a character above the mid-20s, but still.

[Qenan]

Anyone playing? Just curious to know what you think. This sounds like a nice expansion for EQ. I'm tempted to try EQ again just to check out the dungeons.

Ugh. The thought of going back to EQ makes me a little seasick.

I went to the Austin game conference (it was open to fans) and listened to some of the talks. My conclusion: my MMORPG days are probably over; everyone is obsessed with getting players into "social networks" and "the meta game" so we will subscribe forever. I'm just not interested; I want a new game every few months or so.

[Mark Asher]

Anyone playing? Just curious to know what you think. This sounds like a nice expansion for EQ. I'm tempted to try EQ again just to check out the dungeons.

Ugh. The thought of going back to EQ makes me a little seasick.

I went to the Austin game conference (it was open to fans) and listened to some of the talks. My conclusion: my MMORPG days are probably over; everyone is obsessed with getting players into "social networks" and "the meta game" so we will subscribe forever. I'm just not interested; I want a new game every few months or so.

The funny thing about this is that these social networks have been formed, but not all of them are loyal to any one game. In some cases, the entire clan migrates from game to game. To me, this is the ideal way to play these games. Take advantage of the social nature of these games and play with a regular group of friends, but don't feel tied to any one game. Play for a few months and then move to the next game, or take a break, or play BF1942 for a few weeks, etc.

I've reached my own personal saturation level with these games. As soon as I feel I've fallen into a rut and am doing the same things over and over again solely in the name of character advancement, I'm done with the game.

The most recent game this happened to me with is Endless Ages. It's a nice game, different -- an MMOG shooter with character development -- but as soon as I realized I needed to kill about 100 of these monsters to get that next incremental increase in character power, and all that increase would do for me is let me use slightly better weapons and armor, I cancelled my account.

[Mark Asher]

I wish other people would put out tons of content like that--one of the fun things about a MMO is the massive, diverse world that you can't get in a single-player game.

Yeah, even the original game did a nice job of making the world seem big and diverse. You had deserts, frozen wastes, savannah, dense forests, volvanic areas, islands, etc. It really did help break up some of the tedium just to move from one area to another different-looking area.

It was really a weak point of DAoC (still is) that everything looked the same, even the mobs. All Mythic was able to do with mob archtypes was to make them smaller or larger and change the stats. So you had about 30 different kinds of small humanoids named spriggens and about dozen other names, but they all looked the same. In EQ you might see a lot of orcs, but the different types would at least wear different clothes and armor.

[Jason McCullough]

Oddly, EQ is the game I have the least objections to. Hell, I'd play it if it wasn't for the absurd fucking downtime; it's a much more amusing gameworld than the other ones.

It cracks me up that Frogloks are a player race now.

[olaf]

I am playing it. To give you some background on my character, my guild is in the elementals, but wont see Time for a few more months. I play a 65 Necromancer with decent gear, no elemental stuff but a lot of VT stuff. I have 280ish AAs.

The coolest part about it is the way you get your own dungeon. No more looking for a place to hunt, thats great. Also no more worrying about dickshines training you or jumping your group for a named.

The other good part about it is the slots that were added to all items, and the items that fit in them to upgrade your item. The downside to this is that pretty much all pre-LDON gear, save Time stuff, is only upgradable with the weakest of these new upgrades, type 1 or any slot items which basically give you +6 to one stat or resist, or type 4 for weapons, which add procs. The other types of upgrades are generally more powerful, including multi stat boosts and effects like FT, regen and even focus effects. You have to get LDON gear to have items with multiple slots on them.

The biggest problem I have with the expansion is the difficulty levels. When you choose an adventure, there are two difficulty levels, normal and hard. The dungeon is further scaled based on your party's level make up, or something like that. Normal is very easy so far. We finish most of them with 30-40 mins to spare, and my typical group doesnt include a cleric or an enchanter so its not the ideal group. Some maps/dungeons are much harder than others though. We had a map last night in Guk where we won with 5 mins to spare because the map was very big and had a high mob density. After you win, or lose, you have 30 mins to fuck around, to either seek out chests or named mobs, or to try and finish your mission for a heavily reduced point reward. If you die and have no res, you can zone back in, and there is no back spawn ever so its easy to catch up to the group. After the extra 30mins are complete any corpses left in your dungeon get ported to outside the dungeon entrance, very much like POP graveyards. XP is decent. Its nowhere near as good as elemental xp, but you get 1% AA per kill on normal. So you get maybe an AA every 2 missions or so.

The hard level missions though, are very hard. Trash mobs in normal hit for up to 400. Trash mobs in hard hit for up to 800, and mitigate slow to boot. I would say that without an ideal group, you need Time equipped players to win one. With an ideal group, you still have to be pretty capable players and have good gear to win one of these. There needs to be a difficulty level between normal and hard, and the point award for hard needs to be boosted to double that of normal.

The item drops in hard are pretty good, although they are not upgrades for most of the people capable of doing them, which is people in time gear. This loot is no drop. The loot from normal, aside from the upgrade items which are all no-drop, is droppable but is bazaar/twink fodder so far.

There are also chests in the dungeons. These chests are magic, cursed or mechanical. The casting classes have been given spells to open the magic/cursed locks, bards and rogues are needed to unlock/disarm the mechanical stuff. The loot in them is ass so far. For example, we got 5p 10g from one last night. The best think I have seen from one is a diamond. Not worth it at all, especially when the traps on them can be brutal.

The points you earn from missions are spent at the camps where you get missions. You can buy spells, items, or item upgrades. Points earned are level based as well. A 65 earns 51 points for a win on normal, something like 76 for a win on hard. I heard a level 22 gets 1 point for a normal win, lol. The most expensive stuff I have seen is around 1500 points. Good spells range from 650-800.

The crappy thing is that you cant spend more points in a camp than you have earned at that particular camp, and the items are spread out so that only a handful of basic stuff is sold at all camps. So if you earn 1000 points in Everfrost and 100 in Butcherblock, you will have 1100 total points, but you can only buy things costing up to 100 in Butcherblock. Its basically like you are unlocking stuff in each camp, once its unlocked you can buy it with points from anywhere, but to do the actual unlocking you must earn the points at a specific camp.

olaf

[Rod Humble]

Glad some of you are enjoying it :)

FYI the timers are there for casual gamers (like myself actually) who want to be able to to tell my wife that I will be off the computer within 2 hours. The more you extend the timer the more the casual gamer becomes the timer "sorry guys I have to go". In addition we wanted to keep groups moving otherwise the old tactics and "preferred" classes would emerge. Right now in LDoN there is no reason to turn anyone down for an easy mission group (or so we hope).

That doesnt mean we dont do some tweaking, obviously we will, right now things seem to be going fairly well although as noted the easy missions are fairly easy and the hard missions are HARD. Maybe some middle ground will be needed.

To answer Qenan's point about social networks etc I think that there is a difference in emphasis from game team to game team. Some are interested in virtual worlds and societies and some are interested in making cooler games using lots of players as the design backbone. I tend to fall into the latter category but we have teams at SOE of both kinds.

The rut you are describing Mark will become more widespread amongst the gaming community over time ,you are bleeding edge as its your job to digest so much product. This is the reason SoE has a long term product plan that we believe is innovative. It has to be. I think companies who want to make an "EQ style XXXX" or "UO but with XXXXX" are making a mistake. Having thousands of players online at once is a massive design pallete restricting yourself to previous designs but with an odd tweak here and there is more risky than taking a risky design IMHO.

It frustrates me seeing people spend so much money on an online game and not working out of the box a little and making a game they have passion for instead. They could be making a game about playing wildlife around a farm house (you are playing a mouse your needs are different from the people playing an owl) or a game simulating the running of your countries elections with each player trying to make his way up the political ladder by gaining and trading favours or even online golf complete with virtual club house and world rankings.

Ah now I have started to babble, you see why I dont go to those conferences :)


Rod

[quatoria]

The rut you are describing Mark will become more widespread amongst the gaming community over time ,you are bleeding edge as its your job to digest so much product. This is the reason SoE has a long term product plan that we believe is innovative. It has to be. I think companies who want to make an "EQ style XXXX" or "UO but with XXXXX" are making a mistake. Having thousands of players online at once is a massive design pallete restricting yourself to previous designs but with an odd tweak here and there is more risky than taking a risky design IMHO.

I very much agree with you, Rod, particularly with the incremental alterations in design vs. fundamental shifts. I was interested in Planetside because it was something new. I was interested in Earth and Beyond, and Anarchy Online, for the same reasons. The only MMORPG's on the horizon that interest me at all are Mythica and City of Heroes - again, because they're doing some totally new things. (Although it looks like you guys will successfully take some wind out of Mythica's sails, with having earlier deployment of a private realms system) Titles like World of Warcraft just don't hold even the slightest interest for me, because, let's be honest, it's Everquest with a Warcraft skin set. Utterly boring. I'm sure my position is a little more extreme than most, if only because I've had to play so many of these titles, but I think more and more of the community, over time, is going to get disenchanted with the "me-too" titles.

[Rod Humble]

quatoria:
Apart from every SoE title OBVIOUSLY....... :) You might want to give EvE, Jumpgate and WW2 Online a try. I very much enjoy all three of these games and they have lots of fun innvations. They dont have massive budgets and can be a challenge to get into but once you do they are very engaging in my opinion.

All the best,

Rod

[quatoria]

Rod: Jumpgate intrigues, but the others, not so much. I've heard nothing good about EVE - every comment I've heard has focused on the fact that, essential, it's boring as hell. As for WWII Online, I don't think I'll ever be able to get the memory of the "press A to lift rifle, press B to pull back bolt, press C to release, press D to look through iron sights, press E to move finger to trigger guard, press F to position finger on trigger, press G to pull trigger, press H to move finger off trigger...." mentality that plagued the initial release.

[Rywill]

Yeah, even the original game did a nice job of making the world seem big and diverse. You had deserts, frozen wastes, savannah, dense forests, volvanic areas, islands, etc. It really did help break up some of the tedium just to move from one area to another different-looking area.
Exactly. Not to beat a dead horse, but this was one of the best things about EQ, and then every later MMO just threw the concept into the dustbin. I've never, never understood that. Few other games have cities as good as EQ's, either.

[Qenan]

The diversity of EQ was great, but the tedium of the gameplay is too much to contemplate for me.

[Mark Asher]

The diversity of EQ was great, but the tedium of the gameplay is too much to contemplate for me.

They've made some changes to reduce some of that, I think. At times the downtime didn't bother me. It was fun to chat during the downtime -- OOC chat could be a lot of fun. The downtime was excessive though.

[Sharpe]

EQ is a very different game now. The core of continuing players are extremely hardcore "uber" player in well organized guilds with highly structured play patterns who've spent literally thousands of hours building up their characters. Thus, the higher end of content is geared to provide them with a lot to do and is thus insanely challenging to a vanilla player.

On the other hand, the game is FAR more friendly to a less-intense player now than it used to be. Over the last several expansions they've added several layers of user-friendliness to the game including soulbinders (you can find an NPC in almost all cities who will bind you for a small fee), a variety of purchased and rechargeable items to help you do basic things, multiple teleport networks interconnecting the major areas of the game which reduces the tedious travel time and connects players more easily. The Planes of Power teleport network in particular is very impressive. Also they've added a VERY user friendly merchant system (I think its like the SWG system) in the Bazaar, which makes buying and selling pretty damn easy.

Theres a whole bunch of small improvement to GUI also: a compass, ingame maps for many zones, more helpful windows, easier customization etc.

As for gameplay the downtime and tedium can be MUCH less annoying that they used to be if you have access to friends or guildmates with "uber" abilities. They've added in many high level spells and abilities that reduce downtime, and make things easier to deal with.

Also, the vast "mudflation" that has occurred means that a newer player can easily purchase (or be given) gear for free or cheap that would have made a player from 3 years ago salivate with desire.

EQ has always had the deepest tactical engine and the most content of all the MMORPGs. It's still a game with a brutal learning curve and can be unforgiving to new players. And to "go deep" in the game requires at least hundreds, if not thousands of hours.

I'm enjoying it this time around, although like always, I will not last forever. I basically end up playing MMORPGs in chunks like a single player game - past 50 hours of play or so I want something new. But I find myself coming back to DAOC and EQ every so often when they have an expansion or major upgrade.

If you haven't touched EQ in a few years, then it might be worth a look. Theres a new collection, EQ Evolution that combines the game plus ALL expansions prior to LDON for about $30:

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/235838.asp

I still consider DAOC to have superior gameplay overall to EQ but EQ by far has more "to do". And its much more friendly, less tedious, and overall a better game than it used to be.

Dan

[Nathan Phoenix]

EQ has always had the deepest tactical engine and the most content of all the MMORPGs.

(insert vast quantities of LOL's, ROFL's, etc here)

Deeper than UO perhaps. The two things that always cause me to lose interest in EQ whenever I try to play it are the lack of tactical depth and the incredibly slow pace of character advancement.

[Ergo]

Sharpe--

Thanks for all that info in your post. I may give EQ another shot because of it.

My biggest bitch about virtually all MMORPGs is that if you're married, have a 9-to-5 job and (probably) have kids, there's no way you could ever get much of anything out of these games. All of the coolest content comes after you spend umpteen hours of dedicated play. I simply don't, and never will, have the time. Unless there's a viable solo character type, I'll forever be on the outside looking in.

[Qenan]

It wasn't the downtime that drove me from EQ; while EQ's was somewhat excessive, I think some downtime is a good thing.

What drove me from EQ was the ever-increasing requirements for new content. Basically, anything past 30 was too much trouble for me. I played most classes and then lost interest. That aspect of the game is still mostly the same.

Add in the fact that there isn't much of anyone to play the first 30 levels with anymore, and I just can't see it. EQ is in its end-game period; if you didn't stick before, I don't really see it as being a good fit now.

[TrodKnee]

Is it just me, or does it seem strange that the most highly praised new feature of a MMORPG that is known for it's high quality designed content is private, randomly generated dungeons?

The appeal of MMORPGs to me is the social-political dynamics that arise from having a large number of players together in one place. This new trend towards privatized content is developers waving a white flag at the extreme carebears who would be better off playing Diablo 2.

[olaf]

Is it just me, or does it seem strange that the most highly praised new feature of a MMORPG that is known for it's high quality designed content is private, randomly generated dungeons?

The appeal of MMORPGs to me is the social-political dynamics that arise from having a large number of players together in one place. This new trend towards privatized content is developers waving a white flag at the extreme carebears who would be better off playing Diablo 2.
You are in the minority. There are too many assholes on the internet. Most people dont want to pay money, or perhaps more importantly TIME, to play with them. As for politics, I really have no idea what you are talking about. The only politics I am familiar with in EQ is the type that goes on between guilds, or within them. And calling it politics seems like a stretch. Its mostly the people with too much time on their hands vs. those with not enough.

olaf

[Qenan]

I think it's a little more complicated than that. When Everquest first opened up, my experiences were overwhelmingly positive. That experience changed over the next year and a half. I can only speculate (not having hard data) but I suspect that the game has selected for assholes -- they are more likely to stay. Maybe it is their ultra-competitive nature, maybe something else, I dunno.

Anyhow, I think instancing is a reasonable stab at dealing with the current customer base.

[Brian Koontz]

The appeal of MMORPGs to me is the social-political dynamics that arise from having a large number of players together in one place. This new trend towards privatized content is developers waving a white flag at the extreme carebears who would be better off playing Diablo 2.

What private contexts allow for is personalization. Its like owning a home... that's your private area. The idea is moving away from one global context in a MMOG into multiple areas owned by different people, or groups of people, or cities, or guilds, etc. When you control an area and the game allows you creative abilities you can begin to shape that area to your preferences. Now instead of people merely having a home as currently exists in MMOG they have a home AREA... a homeland that feels personal to them.

Everquest's implementation of this is not exactly what I had envisioned since its not permanent and does not fulfill the value of privatization. It is a way to control your environment to an extent (it takes you out of the global world) but its artificial.

What I like about the Everquest idea is that its a mini-game... a game with a different set of rules within a larger game. What this means is that you are getting two games in one... you can play the standard Everquest game or you can play the local dungeon variant. The mini-game concept has always been a great and underused one.

[Desslock]

Unless there's a viable solo character type, I'll forever be on the outside looking in.

SWG is the game for you.

[TrodKnee]

Well, there's already no RP in MMORPGs...once they get rid of the pesky MM part there will be nothing left but the OG. Old school's in da hizzouse!

[Desslock]

Well, there's already no RP in MMORPGs...once they get rid of the pesky MM part there will be nothing left but the OG. Old school's in da hizzouse!

I think there's actually more opportunities for role-playing in games with worlds that large, with so much to see, and such extended character development systems -- if only the world weren't so static and "theme-park-ish"

[Dave Markell]

Is it just me, or does it seem strange that the most highly praised new feature of a MMORPG that is known for it's high quality designed content is private, randomly generated dungeons?

The appeal of MMORPGs to me is the social-political dynamics that arise from having a large number of players together in one place. This new trend towards privatized content is developers waving a white flag at the extreme carebears who would be better off playing Diablo 2.

If you've played any Diablo 2 at all in the last few years, you'd realize that calling it "carebear" couldn't be further from the truth. There are endless instant death hacks out there right now that enable antisocial pk'ers to slaughter other players with impunity. This is especially problematic for hardcore characters. For those who don't know, Diablo 2 offers hardcore mode, where any death for any reason results in the deletion of said player.

Hardocore Diablo 2 players scoff at all EQ players as "extreme carebears" . Nothing you can do as an EQ player results in the deletion of your character (unless you somehow hack, but that's a different issue altogether).

[Mark Asher]

Hell, if you cancel your EQ account your character isn't even deleted. They're immortal!

[VegasRobb]

Ergo,

There are a few classes capable of soloing to high levels in Everquest with relative ease.

Necromancers - http://necro.eqclasses.com/forum/
Druids - http://pub149.ezboard.com/bthedruidsgrove

Are the main ones tho. Wizards and Shaman solo well once they get to a certain point, it's just getting to that point. Shadowknights can hold their own as a solo class from the early levels, but I think it would be much slower than a necro or druid.

LDoN is fun. I'm enjoying it. The only thing I have mixed feelings about is the leaderboard. I think leaderboards are very Diablo 1/2 and not really a part of a game like EQ.

Edit - couldn't get hyperlinks to work for some reason so just stuck them in there unhypered. :)

[olaf]

The leaderboard is kind of whack. It doesnt discriminate between hard and normal either, which is stupid.

olaf

[Qenan]

Edit - couldn't get hyperlinks to work for some reason so just stuck them in there unhypered. :)

They were hypered for me...

[Nathan Phoenix]

is it possible to get a random generated dungeon that one of these solo necros or druids could do alone?

[olaf]

is it possible to get a random generated dungeon that one of these solo necros or druids could do alone?
No I think you need at least 4 people to start one up.

olaf

[Nathan Phoenix]

See, no go for me then. My wife and I tend to hop between these MMO games so much that we really don't settle down with a regular guild to play with. That's why we end up mostly going back to games with content that can be solo'd or run as a duo - which AO and to a lesser extent DAOC, do well.

I don't have the requisite social network in EQ nor the desire to build and maintain one, so the 'content' here would be beyond my reach.

On a side note, I wonder how popular those lost dungeon instances are on the PvP servers. Most of my EQ playtime was on SZ and RZ.

[olaf]

Heh. LDON is gonna be hugely popular on the item loot Zeks if for no other reason than upgrading an item with a gem makes it no-drop.

olaf