In which we discuss washing machines

[Ben Sones]

So our washer decided to die on us this week, signalling its rebellion by destroying an entire load of laundry. It's clearly a bearing problem; it started to make a huge racket when spinning, like an airplane taking off, and then covered our clothes with brownish stains in dark rows of dots. Which means that the bearing housing has failed, and oil is leaking into the wash water, where it then gets sprayed onto the clothes by the jets (which are arranged in rows on the ends of the agitator fins). Repair costs for replacing the bearing--and possibly the transmission as well, at this point--are extremely high, so it's new washer time.

We like front loaders. Our old one was a Kenmore, and it worked great (while it was working), but the current review scores for the Kenmore (on Consumer Reports, and especially the user reviews, both on CR's website and on the Sears website) vary from bad to awful across the whole line, so we've decided to go with something else. We were looking at an LG; Sears has a great sale on one of the more expensive LG's (the WM2301H), bringing the price from $950 down to $636. That's a little more than we were looking to spend (we had set the limit at $600), but it is, by all accounts, a great washer.

The problem is that it's out of stock, and the earliest delivery date is the sixth of November, and even that is just a "maybe." Additionally, Sears pissed me off when we went in to look at the washers in person. The marked prices in the store were higher than their website, and when I asked if they could price match their own website they said "sure," went over to one of their computers, and then proceed to pull a website that showed the same prices as the ones in the store. I never would have expected Sears to be involved in that sort of scam; I know that Best Buy just lost a huge class action lawsuit for doing the exact same thing.

Anyway, the delivery date thing is also a problem, so we looked at other alternatives, and the prime one is this washer (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9175304&type=product&id=1218045568111), from Samsung. Which brings me to my question: does anyone have any experience with Samsung washers? The entire line has good to great ratings on Consumer Reports, and while this one is at the bottom of the pack, the user reviews on that site are overwhelmingly positive. Does anyone here have experience with them (good or bad)?

[Gladguy]

We recently had a very similar situation at our house, Ben. Our Frigidaire Gallery washer recently developed a nasty leak from the bottom, and the spin cycle was so loud it resounded through the whole house. I didn't bother even getting anyone in... the internets pretty much confirmed 9 years is about the expected lifecycle of today's washers. Replacing the bearing is, as you point out, more expensive than buying a new machine.

We shopped around at Sears and Best Buy and a couple local appliance shops, and eventually negotiated a deal at FutureShop for a Samsung washer which, if it isn't the exact same model you link, is pretty damn close.

So far, it's been performing beautifully, cleaning clothes in less time and with less water than the Frigidaire. Energy use is also lower, so I figure I'm saving money there too. The one we have has some kill-the-nasty-bacteria-in-your-underpants ultra-hot mode which we've really only used once just to see what it was all about.

I would have no problem recommending the Samsung washer. In fact, I'm almost hoping my dryer dies so I can get the match.

[Athryn]

We just bought a Kenmore Washer and Dryer from Sears, and I can give them two gigantic thumbs up.

Washer Link (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02647081000P?vName=Appliances).

My mom has the same washer and dryer but older models, and they love them too. They're really quiet, have all sorts of cycles, and can hold things like huge blankets, while taking up the same space as our old washer and dryer.

So I guess you can take those as anecdotal rebuttals to the low ratings from other sources.

[Ben Sones]

Athryn--I appreciate the advice, but that model is almost $300 over our budget, and not from the same line that I'm looking at. The Elite series is made by a different manufacturer--Whirlpool, if I'm not mistaken--than the regular Kenmores, which are mostly made by Frigidaire. So good experiences with the one doesn't have any bearing on the other.

In any event, the Samsung is in our price range, has pretty much every feature that the HE5t has (same capacity, internal heater, high RPM direct drive motor, stainless tub, auto-leveling) except for the price tag, is more energy efficient, and comes with a better warranty (not quite as good as LG's, but definitely way better than most other brands). So even if price weren't an issue, I'd still be leaning in that direction, unless someone has some horror stories to convince me otherwise.

Gladguy--thanks for the input!

[alexlitel]

http://www.craphound.com/images/greener_gadgets_02.jpg

[Athryn]

Just offering my feedback :)

[glr200]

I just bought the Samsung model 219 from Sears a week ago. Seems to work well, not too loud. The only con for me is that it seems to take longer to finish a load than my old Maytag Neptune by 5-10 minutes. It does have a digital display that tells you how long it will take depending on what options you choose (extra rise, extra wash, etc).

By the way, you might want to check your local electric/water company for rebates. For example, PG&E (San Francisco Bay Area) is offering a $200 rebate and the Southern CA area is offering $300 rebate.

[Timemaster Tim]

We have a 5 year old Kenmore Elite and it's been running fine. The Elites are really Whirlpools which I gather is more expensive than you are looking for. The lower priced front loaders are Frigidaires and we bo9ught one for my in-laws last year. So far, it's worked fine with no complaints. What negatives are being posted about these machines?

[Ben Sones]

Right. Like I said, I was looking at the regular Kenmore line (i.e. Frigidaire), not the Elites, which are all out of our price range. As for negatives, just peruse the user reviews on the Sears website. The comments on this model (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02647531000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Washers+%26+Dryers&sName=Front-Load#reviewsWrap) are typical of most of the line. 96 reviews, and 59 of them give the washer one star out of five. Ouch. Problems cited are all over the map, with an awful lot of reports of serious mechanical failures (bearings going in the first year, etc.). Also leaks, noise, inadequate cleaning... the complaints kind of run the gamut.

The Frigidaires have similar user reviews, both on the Sears website and on the Consumer Reports site. Apparently one serious problem is that the bearings on these washers have a plastic housing that doesn't wear well. But there are many, many other complaints as well--enough to make me very nervous about buying another one. Especially when the washer that we are replacing is also a Kenmore that gave up the ghost before its time. My brother-in-law also had a Frigidaire-branded version of one of the Kenmore models that died after only a couple of years.

By contrast, the LG and Samsung washers have much more favorable user reviews in general, and both Samsung and LG provide much more generous warranties (Kenmore and Frigidaire both give you a one-year limited warranty, and that's it; LG gives you one year on general parts and labor, two years ont he electronics, ten years on the motor, and lifetime on the drum). The Samsung model we're looking at has a user review average of 4.5 stars on both the Sears and Consumer Reports sites, with only a single one-star review on each site. The Samsung washers all have very high ratings from CR itself, as well.

[John Merva]

Interesting timing for this one.
The handle snapped off my washing machine today and it is currently holding my clothes to ransom! Wouldn't be so much of a problem if my work shirts weren't currently in there!

[ElGuapo]

Damn, you rich people spend a lot if yer warshers!

$250 baby!

[kerzain]

$250, you're still a big spender! For me it's more like $100 & Used. You end up with a $600 washer on the cheap and the local thrift stores here give labor/parts warranties for a couple months too.

I've owned 3 washers in the last 12 years (one finally broke, sold one during a move, and still using the third), never paid for repairs, and paid $75 $75 $100 for them respectively. I'm a cheap bastard when it comes to appliances that sit in the garage.

[mouselock]

Anyway, the delivery date thing is also a problem, so we looked at other alternatives, and the prime one is this washer (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9175304&type=product&id=1218045568111), from Samsung. Which brings me to my question: does anyone have any experience with Samsung washers? The entire line has good to great ratings on Consumer Reports, and while this one is at the bottom of the pack, the user reviews on that site are overwhelmingly positive. Does anyone here have experience with them (good or bad)?

We have about a week and a half worth of experience with that washer, which has been fine so far. I can say that when we were looking, one of the appliance guys at Best Buy (so take it with the appropriate grain of salt) pointed out that those things have a belt drive rather than a transmission, which he used to (successfully) convince us that should we need major repairs we'd have an easier time with.

They've been on sale for the three weeks previous to this in one way or another at Best Buy as well, 3 weeks ago was 15% off due to energy-starness, 2 weeks ago was variable percent off depending on how many appliances you bought (we just moved so bought w/d and fridge, so it was 15%). Unfortunately for you last week they were flat out 25% off (so $599); not sure what they're doing this week but you ought to be able to at least bargain them down 10% or so form the standard price if you go to Best Buy.

All in all most of the washers are about the same, but that's the one that didn't feel like a cheap piece of crap (and was energy star rated and high efficiency/low water) and, at the same time, wasn't godawful expensive. (Those $1600 Electroluxes sure come in some pretty colors, though!) We just haven't had it long enough to tell you if it's good or bad, but I will say it's really damn quiet. First time it went to spin cycle we had to hunt down what the noise was (a high pitched whine that was rather understated) because we had no idea.. they sound nothing like the old tub washers we'd always used before.

[Ben Sones]

I can say that when we were looking, one of the appliance guys at Best Buy (so take it with the appropriate grain of salt) pointed out that those things have a belt drive rather than a transmission, which he used to (successfully) convince us that should we need major repairs we'd have an easier time with.

The Best Buy guy is actually mistaken--all of the Samsungs have direct drive motors, according to Samsung--no belts. The LG have those as well, and they are supposed to be better--less prone to breakage, less vibration while spinning, higher spin speeds. So he was right about the "better" part, at least.

I'm pretty pissed at Best Buy right now, though. We went over there to buy the washer today, and they raised the price on it this morning. By $200. The salesperson mentioned nothing about the sale ending when we were there looking at it (and seriously--who ends sales on Saturday?), and I think we made it clear that we wanted it, but needed to go home and check out the Consumer Reports review for that model (and start a thread here to ask for opinions) first. We would have bought it yesterday if we had known.

I asked to talk to the store manager, and explained the situation and how irked we were that the sales guy hadn't told us that sale was ending, but he wouldn't give us the sale price, either. So we walked. Fuck Best Buy.

[robsam]

The analysis that goes into mundane purchases on this site is astounding. I don't say that as an insult or as a compliment. I am just amazed at the level of detail and research some of you go through to make a decision.

That being said, IF I had bothered to go through all of the trouble you did, Ben, I would be plenty pissed at Best Buy myself. Personally, I would have bought the damn Samsung at first sight if I were using your budget, but I am a notorious impulse buyer.

[Timemaster Tim]

The analysis that goes into mundane purchases on this site is astounding. I don't say that as an insult or as a compliment.

I wouldn'ty exactly place buying a major appliance in the mundane category. It's a large outlay of cash for a mechanical device which can break down or perform poorly. I don't think it's outlandish to do a bit of research.

[Hanzii]

What Tim said.

It's a major appliance and something that you'll use more or less every day - people buying it without doing the minimum research like Ben would be the astounding thing to me.

(We basically looked at energy ratings when buying our latest appliance, a dryer - I think we ended up with a Siemens. Can't go wrong with German engineering when talking about fast rotating machines... and stuff still built with a huge fucking block of concrete inside. As for washing machines we had a cheap Miele, which I dumped yesterday and now use a cheap Gorenje)

[Ben Sones]

Yeah, anything that costs hundreds of dollars and gets constant use is worthy of some research, as far as I'm concerned. I'll impulsively buy things that I can easily afford to replace if they don't work out, but a $600 washing machine is not one of those things.

[ElGuapo]

Holy cow, but they all work the same. The basic top load washer design hasn't changed for years. Front load = rip off.

It's like researching different kinds of garbage disposals.

[Hanzii]

Holy cow, but they all work the same.

No.
Or depending on how broad you define "the same". That could also be said about guns, hot tubs, speakers, bicycles or computer mice. All stuff we spend multiple pages arguing about.

The basic top load washer design hasn't changed for years. Front load = rip off.

Explain.
I've never used anything but frontloaders. Toploaders aren't that common here, so you thoughts interest me and I'm considering subscribing to your newsletter.

It's like researching different kinds of garbage disposals.

I probably would research them, if I were to install one.

[Dave Long]

We really dig the Fisher & Paykel washer that we got some years back. Not sure if they're still dealing here in the US, though. It's a New Zealand based company.

Really cool machine, though.

Ah... here you go.

http://www.fisherpaykel.com/

[ElGuapo]

All top load washing machines work the same. There is a a hot and cold water input, which controls water temperature, a bin to load the clothes in (actually two bins, the one on the inside has holes in it, the one on the outside does not ... this allows the water to squeeze out of the holes during the spin cycle), an agitator (thing that moves) in the middle of the bin, and the bin spins freely during the rinse cycle. There are motors at the bottom to drive the bin rotation and agitator. Also, a drain pipe for the water to come out. Since it's mounted top down, it's a more energy efficient design as the clothes simply spin to the outside of the bin during the spin cycle.

I don't believe there have been many advances in this design since the 60s. I remember my Grandma's washing machine looking exactly the same as the one I just bought (though her bin/hopper was made of metal).

I don't know how front loaders work differently, but the top down was the original design.

Your washing machine is probably one of the simpler major appliances in your house.

[Ben Sones]

Having just washed all of our laundry for the week in Karen's parents' top-loader, I can tell you from personal experience that they don't all work the same. Coming out of the top-loader, our clothes were not as clean, and much wetter; they took about twice as long to dry as it normally takes with our front-loader. Top-loaders use a lot more water, are less effective at removing the water that they do add, and generally just aren't as good at cleaning. They also tend to be a lot less energy efficient, and have smaller capacities (front loaders often have larger drums, and don't have a huge agitator post taking up a whole bunch of space). Less capacity equals more loads, which means more of my time spent doing laundry. Then you can tack on the extra time that it takes to dry the clothes.

And actually, they have changed in recent years. Attempts to make top-loaders at least somewhat energy efficient have seriously curtailed their cleaning ability, across all brands. The highest rating that Consumer Reports gives to any top-loader today is about on par with the ratings they give to the worst of the front-loaders. And that's for the really expensive top-loaders ($1000+). If you want to look at the $300 models, or even ones priced similary to the front-loaders that I'm looking at... well, let's just say that there are a whole lot of black circles in the ratings, and very little red.

Since it's mounted top down, it's a more energy efficient design

No, it's not. Go look at the specs for top-load vs. front load washers on the Sears site (since it has a wide range of them). Half the top-load washers available aren't Energy Star-compliant at all (every front-load washer is), and even the ones that are have energy usage ratings that are two to three times higher than the LGs and Samsungs that I've been looking at. They also use three to four times as much water per load.

[ElGuapo]

Well, not to be argumentative, but I guess we are discussing washing machines. :)

There might have been tiny, minor advances in the top down design, like the ability to detect when a load is imbalanced better, or a better buffer when spinning. But if you took someone from the 50s and they asked "How do you clean your clothes now?" the machine you showed them would look and perform almost exactly the same. If you asked them what we drive, how we listen to music, or many other questions about common thing you purchase, the results would be vastly different. In other industries we've gotten whole new technologies and advances. In clothes washing, not so much.

I've read a little bit about the front load design, and it looks to be the same way. Different decade, same technology.

Also, Ben, how much does it cost per load of laundry in water and electricity for a top vs. front loader? A few cents per load? Maybe what, $.15-.$20 in water and electricity? Probably much less. Now look at the price difference between the prices of top loader and front loader. I just don't see any savings.

[Dave Long]

Having just washed all of our laundry for the week in Karen's parents' top-loader, I can tell you from personal experience that they don't all work the same. Coming out of the top-loader, our clothes were not as clean, and much wetter; they took about twice as long to dry as it normally takes with our front-loader. Top-loaders use a lot more water, are less effective at removing the water that they do add, and generally just aren't as good at cleaning. They also tend to be a lot less energy efficient, and have smaller capacities (front loaders often have larger drums, and don't have a huge agitator post taking up a whole bunch of space). Less capacity equals more loads, which means more of my time spent doing laundry. Then you can tack on the extra time that it takes to dry the clothes.

And actually, they have changed in recent years. Attempts to make top-loaders at least somewhat energy efficient have seriously curtailed their cleaning ability, across all brands. The highest rating that Consumer Reports gives to any top-loader today is about on par with the ratings they give to the worst of the front-loaders. And that's for the really expensive top-loaders ($1000+). If you want to look at the $300 models, or even ones priced similary to the front-loaders that I'm looking at... well, let's just say that there are a whole lot of black circles in the ratings, and very little red.



No, it's not. Go look at the specs for top-load vs. front load washers on the Sears site (since it has a wide range of them). Half the top-load washers available aren't Energy Star-compliant at all (every front-load washer is), and even the ones that are have energy usage ratings that are two to three times higher than the LGs and Samsungs that I've been looking at. They also use three to four times as much water per load.

Check the Fisher & Paykel link. They're Energy Star-compliant. Lower water volume, too. Those are the big things about their washers.

[mouselock]

I don't know how front loaders work differently, but the top down was the original design.


Amongst other things, since the tub is large enough that you get free falling of your laundry, they can agitate efficiently with significantly less water since the tub doesn't need to be full to "float" your laundry while agitating as in a top load. Moreover, since the agitator isn't swishing through a tub load of water with the increased friction water brings, there's some extra energy efficiency in the agitation itself (although this may be offset by the fact that the front load washers spin to a much higher speed than your normal top load, which helps save some energy in the drying cycle.

[mouselock]

Also, Ben, how much does it cost per load of laundry in water and electricity for a top vs. front loader? A few cents per load? Maybe what, $.15-.$20 in water and electricity? Probably much less. Now look at the price difference between the prices of top loader and front loader. I just don't see any savings.

Typical figures are about 70% each of energy/water compared to a standard top loader.

Of course, I don't know about where Ben is, but around here there are rebates on top of the prices. So we bought the samsung pair that includes the washer Ben is looking at for $600 per washer/dryer. That's about $250 more than the cheapest top loading pair we could find. Subtract $75 per for the rebate, and the net differential is $175.

Figure you spend around 200/year on energy + water for washing/drying in an average household (3-4 loads/wk, 52 weeks a year). That's $60/year saved. In 3 years we break even. In 5 years we're ahead by $120. If we use it more, or it costs more, then we come out better.

Now, it's probably not enough justification to do research to this extent alone, but couple that with feeling good about using less water/energy (both of which I tend to care about out here in the west where they're both commodities that have some real serious drawbacks with overuse), plus the fact that the front loaders are just plain more convenient for my wife (it's hard to get to the bottom of large top load tubs if you're shorter), plus the fact that the washer is tremendously quieter than a top load at pretty much all times.. it all adds up.

Also you can't buy 20+ year top load washers any longer. Those $350 top load cheap jobs will be doing good to make it through five years, really.

[Hanzii]

Thanks.
I was really baffled by the rip-off comment since I haven't seen a top loader for ages and here they're only sold to students or others in small apartments who need a cheap washer with a smaller footprint. Turns out there's a reason.

Which of course also why professional washeries use industrial front loaders - here those savings really matters in the long run. So I guess like cars it's a matter of cheap energy (and the environment) that explains why Europe has moved on and the US haven't.

And the argument that basic design haven't changed can be used for a bunch of things... especially if you cut it down to the basics and ignore where progress has been made.
I have my great grandmothers hand operated wooden rocking washer out in front of my house - the basics: Water, soap, clothes, aggitation is exactly like my frontloader. Just as the Model T is exactly like the Ford Mondeo - if you choose to just look at the basics: Four wheels, combustion engine, steering wheel... I bet you could even show it to somebody from the 60s and they'd note how they basically operate just the same.

[Athryn]

Thanks.

Which of course also why professional washeries use industrial front loaders - here those savings really matters in the long run. So I guess like cars it's a matter of cheap energy (and the environment) that explains why Europe has moved on and the US haven't.



I would say that the US has moved on, front-load washers are pretty commonplace, and there are far fewer top-load washers for sale than front-loaders.

[Hanzii]

I would say that the US has moved on, front-load washers are pretty commonplace, and there are far fewer top-load washers for sale than front-loaders.

Ok, you've moved on... just not as fast. And ElGuapo hasn't noticed since his toploader from the 60s still cleans his clothes fine, thankyouverymuch.

[Stepsongrapes]

Thanks.
I was really baffled by the rip-off comment since I haven't seen a top loader for ages and here they're only sold to students or others in small apartments who need a cheap washer with a smaller footprint. Turns out there's a reason.

Which of course also why professional washeries use industrial front loaders - here those savings really matters in the long run. So I guess like cars it's a matter of cheap energy (and the environment) that explains why Europe has moved on and the US haven't.

And the argument that basic design haven't changed can be used for a bunch of things... especially if you cut it down to the basics and ignore where progress has been made.
I have my great grandmothers hand operated wooden rocking washer out in front of my house - the basics: Water, soap, clothes, aggitation is exactly like my frontloader. Just as the Model T is exactly like the Ford Mondeo - if you choose to just look at the basics: Four wheels, combustion engine, steering wheel... I bet you could even show it to somebody from the 60s and they'd note how they basically operate just the same.

Seriously, between this and his advice on eye strain, El Guapo has been on a misinformed streak.

Front loaders are more water and energy efficient than top loaders for the reasons mentioned above. For the same reasons, they also clean clothes better, which I happen to like in a washer.

The level of detail at which El Guapo finds all washers to be the same could (as had been said) apply to nearly EVERY mechanical contraption from cars to air conditioners.

[ElGuapo]

Air conditioners and washing machines yes, because the technology hasn't changed in a long time. Cars, absolutely not. They are vastly different when it comes to how the technology has changed in the last 50 years.

[Stepsongrapes]

Air conditioners and washing machines yes, because the technology hasn't changed in a long time. Cars, absolutely not. They are vastly different when it comes to how the technology has changed in the last 50 years.

Please don't mind if I call your assessment into question based on your backwards statements about effiency. You've pretty much admitted that your understanding of the technology is based only on a study of your grandmother's washer.

FYI, you might want to check out the difference in power consumption vs. cooling BTU's of today's air conditioners vs. previous ones. The Japanese in particular have made huge advancements.

Unless you've recently researched the full range of washers recently to make a purchase, it's pretty easy to wave your hands and say they're all the same.

[Timemaster Tim]

And so how do you classify the top loaders with no agitators? Are they still basically the same as 50 years ago?

[mystery]

Thanks for this thread. Our dryer died a few weeks ago, and due to money constraints, we've been washing at home and then taking wet clothes to the local laundromat for drying. We've lost a few clothes to rust in the dryers, and have found that unsavory places still exist in a rather nice place to live.

So, we're now in the market for a new pair of machines, and I'm now seriously looking at the Samsung, so thanks again for that, Ben.

[mouselock]

Ok, you've moved on... just not as fast. And ElGuapo hasn't noticed since his toploader from the 60s still cleans his clothes fine, thankyouverymuch.

How much dirt can you get on your clothes when you spend 50% of your time in a hot tub anyway? I bet he's up on all the latest pool filtering technologies!

[Jojo]

Plus that shitty agitator thing inside top loaders will occasionally grab onto a piece of fabric and totally shred the garment. I've had a top loader destroy 3 or 4 pieces of clothing when I lived in a rental house with a top loader. As soon as we moved out we bought a front loader, no more shredded clothing. I grew up in Europe where all washers are (and were) front loaders for, err, as long as I can remember. Front loaders are superior in almost every way.

[Lunch of Kong]

My dad bought a Samsung washer and dryer for something close to $1000 a piece. They release silver ions into the flux capacitor main deflector dish or something. The things are huge and stacked, barely fit in the washer/dryer alcove. The guys from Frys were too fat to extract themselves from behind the washer/dryer the first time they came to install it, so they came the next morning with a really skinny asian kid who completed the hookups and then Cirque de Soleil'ed himself out from behind the washer and dryer.

When asked why he bought such a huge washer and dryer, dad said, "Because I always wanted a really big washer and dryer."

How can you argue with that?

It works. Both washer and dryer are damn quiet. My clothes are clean.

[Ben Sones]

Air conditioners and washing machines yes, because the technology hasn't changed in a long time. Cars, absolutely not. They are vastly different when it comes to how the technology has changed in the last 50 years.

In the same sense that washers are also different, yes. Car makers have added a wide variety of high-tech systems to the mix, but all of those systems exist to help the car better perform the same function that it always has performed. On a basic level, cars haven't changed much since the Model T. They have seats, four wheels and an engine. You press the gas to accelerate, the brakes to stop, and turn the wheel to turn right or left. It's all pretty much the same, unless you want to consider all of the advances and improvements that affect how well it performs those tasks, like fuel injection and power assists and antilock brakes and traction control and airbags and microprocessors to manage emissions and diagnostics and the like.

But if you want to count that sort of stuff, then you should probably consider that the good modern washers do things like automatically sense how large a load you've put in and adjust the amount of water they use accordingly, or determine how close the clothing is to being clean by monitoring the levels of dirt in the wash water as it recirculates, or detect when a load has become unbalanced and automatically redistribute the clothing to compensate, or use steam jets to sanitize clothing and remove difficult stains, or (in the case of Samsung) use silver ions to sterilize clothing without using heated water. Or, you know, adding the simple mechanical concept of tilting the wash tub on its side, so instead of washing clothes by harshly twisting and pulling them with an agitator while they are submersed in a large quantity of water, you can instead tumble them repeatedly in and out of a smaller quantity of water, which is more effective at cleaning, and much more gentle on the clothes.

But other than stuff like that, yeah--washers are exactly the same as they were in the 60s. And I can still drive a Model T to the grocery store.

[Jerry Sizzler]

http://www.craphound.com/images/greener_gadgets_02.jpg

That'll come in seriously handy the next time I shit on my shirt.

[ElGuapo]

Please don't mind if I call your assessment into question based on your backwards statements about effiency. You've pretty much admitted that your understanding of the technology is based only on a study of your grandmother's washer.

FYI, you might want to check out the difference in power consumption vs. cooling BTU's of today's air conditioners vs. previous ones. The Japanese in particular have made huge advancements.

Unless you've recently researched the full range of washers recently to make a purchase, it's pretty easy to wave your hands and say they're all the same.


I'll indulge you. First, I did do a comprehensive look and comparison between different washers recently. As recently as last month when I bought one. I didn't find the front loaders to be worth the typically $200-300 markup over top loaders for sale.

Second, try a little reading comprehension. The statement about modern top loading washing machines being very similar to my grandma's was to illustrate that the technology hasn't changed all that much. As for front loading machines, it's my understanding they have been popular in Europe since at least the 50s. The technology is slightly newer than the top loader, but not much.

A question for you. Have you looked at the internals, or repaired a washing machine lately? Have you poked around inside and old one and a new one? They are nearly identical. Unlike a modern car and old car.

Auto sensing load sizes? Silver ion particles? Sorry, but what a waste of technology and money. I'd put those on par with a built in garage door opener on a car. A slight convenience. Plus, silver ions to sterilize clothing without heating it? Are you kidding me? Heating the water is one of the major things that cleans the clothes. You will always remove more stains with warmer water. It's why you wash with with the hottest water. What nonsense.


Unlike say, anti-lock brakes, power steering, and electronic fuel injection, which were major advances in car technology and really affected how we drive.

[Enidigm]

The main reason i stuck with top over front loader when i purchased a washer/dryer pair last year was that you can't soak clothes in a front loader. BUT, otoh, my top loader (some GE model i believe) did chew up one of my bed comforters recently, which wouldn't have happened with a front loader.

As far as i could tell, the only significant difference between top loaders was whether they had a stainless steel tub or not.

[Athryn]

You will always remove more stains with warmer water. It's why you wash with with the hottest water. What nonsense.


This statement here sticks out more than anything else to attest to your lack of knowledge of the subject. To sanitize clothes, you use the hottest water possible, but outside of a hospital setting this is unnecessary. Dishwashing detergents are formulated nowadays to work in all temperatures of water, and there are some stains (like blood) that will become more permanent if you use hot water.

The initial upfront markup you describe more than pays for itself with the lower amounts of water that front-load washers use. They save power as well.


Edit: You can soak clothes in a front load washer, my washer has a soak setting.

[Stepsongrapes]

Unlike say, anti-lock brakes, power steering, and electronic fuel injection, which were major advances in car technology and really affected how we drive.

You're setting a biased standard based on the cost and importance of cars versus what they actually DO. So the car steers, brakes, and uses fuel better, right? Old cars did those things too, by the way. My first car did not have any of the features you mentioned. The basic driving experience wasn't vastly different.

Washers really only do 3 major things: 1) they consume energy 2) they consume water 3) they clean clothes. Now, let's look at front loaders now and then: they use a significantly less amount of energy and water and they get clothes cleaner (and drier), in less time. How is this different than the car?

What more can you ask for in advancement than superior performance on all primary functions? Similarly, today's AC's use significantly less power to put out more cooling. That's not advancement?

You seem to demand advancement in areas other than the actual functions of the device. Obviously, this hasn't happened. What do you want, some frickin' lasers on the shark? Maybe a TV on the side like refrigerators?

As to water temperature, any feature that allows you to get clothes as clean with less hot water does two things: 1) save energy, and 2) saves wear/fade on your clothes.

Seriously, your issues are that you just simply don't consider washing to be important enough to bother with advancements (or you don't appreciate the advancements). That's fine as a personal choice, but to say all washers are basically the same is misinformed.

[ElGuapo]

Ok, I'll step back from the hot water thing. I stick by the "no big technological advances" claim. I will claim that you will always het more dirt off clothes with water than without. That's simply how soap works.

[ElGuapo]

Steps, you keep talking abstracts. Do you have in mind specific technological advances? I've already mentioned two upthread that have to do with spin cycle stability that I don't consider major.

[extarbags]

I will claim that you will always het more dirt off clothes with water than without. That's simply how soap works.

What, so you're not in favor of just dunking your clothes in detergent and calling it a day? Glad we got to the bottom of that one.

[Karen]

Second, try a little reading comprehension. The statement about modern top loading washing machines being very similar to my grandma's was to illustrate that the technology hasn't changed all that much. As for front loading machines, it's my understanding they have been popular in Europe since at least the 50s. The technology is slightly newer than the top loader, but not much.


My grandmother's washer had a wringer on it. And she used it into the 90's. My other grandmother was a gadget geek, she had a front loader early on. I think she replaced it with a top loader at one point, probably because she couldn't get a front loader in the 80's.

Our house still has the original 'builder's special' washing machine in the basement, A two bin soapstone sink. As the house no longer comes with a maid, the original washing machine functions as the drain for the modern washer.

Also, we don't get any kind of rebate for buying a green washer. We live 5 miles from 1/5 of the world's fresh water, and are in the snow belt. Our water rates are very cheap. I like the front loaders because the dryer time is much reduced, great for gas usuage

[Hanzii]

Steps, you keep talking abstracts. Do you have in mind specific technological advances? I've already mentioned two upthread that have to do with spin cycle stability that I don't consider major.

I think this is the only point that matters here and there's really no point arguing it further.

If you care for the environment or isn't made of money then the fact that a good modern frontloader saves water, saves electricity, uses less time and makes your clothes last longer is major improvements.

The rest is just you pointing out that you know little about how modern soap or washing machines work and moving the goalposts by simply declaring that those things that have improved in washing machines simply aren't important whereas in cars they are. Sure, cars are much more complex machines, so there's more room for improvement.

But I love your belief in self:
"What nonsense!"
"OK, I was wrong there... but this is simply how it works"

[Ben Sones]

And while technology that reduces noise and vibration in washers may not be a big deal to him, I think anyone that has a main floor laundry room might disagree on that point. That's not to mention the features I mentioned that he ignored, or the ones that I didn't mention that aren't new technology, but which do contribute to the higher prices on high-end washers (like internal water heaters, or stainless steel drums). And, as I said, we want a washer with a decent capacity. I could get a top loader for $200-300 less, as he says, but only if I'm willing to get one that's too small to wash things like comforters. If you look at top loaders with 4.0+ cubic foot capacity, the cost savings over front loaders is minimal (the cheapest one I could find is around $500).

In any event, we did order a new washer. Not the Samsung, unfortunately--I was pretty much sold on it, but now that it's gone off sale at Best Buy (where it was $600), the cheapest I could get it was for $764, at Sears. So I went back to the LG models, and ended up ordering this one (http://www.lge.com/us/appliances/washers/LG-WM2101HW.jsp). Delivery is scheduled for Friday!

[Hanzii]

Noise is a big issue, you're right.
As many other Danes (Europeans) we live in limited space and can't just hide our washing machines in a far away room, because there aren't any far away rooms in my house.

[Griddle]

QT3, where washing machine threads get serious. I love you guys!!!

[ElGuapo]

Fuck your elitist yuppie front loading washing machines!

Top loaders 4 life!

[Ben Sones]

Top loaders are kiddie washing machines! And pie is superior to cake!

[Lunch of Kong]

Fuck your elitist yuppie front loading washing machines!

Top loaders 4 life!

There are top loaders now that rotate the clothing on a horizontal axis and provide the same great frugality in terms of water and energy use as the side loaders. :-)

http://www.staber.com/

[Hanzii]

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2561/vaderscreamsnooohpqq5.jpg

Just need Pogo to replace the printer with a toploading washing machine.

[wisefool]

Just watch out for mold on the front-loading gasket. :(

I am wondering if the bleach will damage the rubber gasket. It seems annoying to have to wash a washing machine. I am barely unlazy enough to wash clothes.

[Ben Sones]

There are top loaders now that rotate the clothing on a horizontal axis and provide the same great frugality in terms of water and energy use as the side loaders. :-)

http://www.staber.com/

Not to be a wet blanket (Ha! Get it?), but the Staber washers have pretty lousy scores on Consumer Reports, even compared to other top-loaders. And they are really expensive. They start at $1300, and go up from there.

In related news, the washer has landed! Delivery guys just dropped it off a few minutes ago. They even provided all the new hoses I need (I thought I was going to have to run out to Home Depot and buy some), and had them already hooked up for me. Nice.

Just watch out for mold on the front-loading gasket. :(

We never wiped off the gasket on our old top loader, and have never had issues with mold. We've always just left the door ajar, and it dried out just fine. And I think some of the higher-end brands are putting mold-resistant rubber on the door gaskets now.

It might be different in wetter climates, though. Bear in mind that we live pretty far north, and also have our basement's dehumidifier right next to the laundry room.

[Athryn]

Just watch out for mold on the front-loading gasket. :(

I am wondering if the bleach will damage the rubber gasket. It seems annoying to have to wash a washing machine. I am barely unlazy enough to wash clothes.

Mine has a "wash machine" feature, just set it to that, put some bleach in and let it go.

[Jojo]

Seconding Ben, just leave the door ajar when not in use. If you have mold already, and your machine doesn't have the "wash itself" feature like Athryn's (mine doesn't) just put some bleach in and run your hottest wash.

[kerzain]

Don't leave dryer doors ajar though. Cats will crawl in looking for warmies and unsuspectingly become part of the laundry when you plop the clothes in and let them tumble for an hour.

[Ben Sones]

So I'm catching up on laundry today, now that the new machine is all hooked up. And it works great! It was a bitch to get leveled, thanks to the incredibly un-level floors in the basement of our 100 year old house, but now it's all set and runs very quietly. It's getting the trial by fire today, because after over a week with no washer, we've got about seven or eight loads to do. And I still need to get an appliance-rated extension cord for it. We only have one outlet in the laundry room, and it's not very conveniently located.

We also took the opportunity to put a coat of brick-and-mortar paint on the wall behind the washer while the old one was pulled out and waiting to be hauled away. And I threw out the disgusting indoor/outdoor rug that's been on the floor in there since we moved in, and replaced it with some modular foam-rubber tiles that seem a whole lot more practical (and sanitary) for a basement floor. It's like Laundry Room 2.0!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2633/4040226295_5aeec20704.jpg

The washer's control panel makes you feel a bit like you are overseeing a shuttle launch from Mission Control, but it's actually a lot simpler than it looks. Most of the time, you can just use the big jog dial, which cycles through a bunch of presets. Then if you want to, you can modify any of the settings for your selected preset with the row of buttons on the right (like if you want to add a prewash cycle, or lower the temperature, or whatever). I particularly like the countdown timer on the display, which tells you exactly what the washer is doing right now, and exactly how many minutes are left until the load will be done.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3521/4040976074_eb1e062e61.jpg

[kerzain]

God forbid you choose the wrong setting and all your clothes get teleported to the Andromeda galaxy.

[Athryn]

Mine sounds like a pinball machine when you use it.

[mouselock]

Our drier sings to us. Every time something in our house beeps (because everything beeps these days.. microwaves, oven, dishwasher, refrigerator if it's been left open), we have to wait to see if the happy drier song follows after the beep before we can move in the appropriate appliance direction.

[Ranulf]

Ben, how are you liking the machine these days? I'm in the market for a new washer/dryer, getting sick of looking at specs.

[Ben Sones]

Big thumbs up. It washes bigger loads than our old machine, which is great, and gets stuff very clean. The controls look confusing at first but are actually very easy to use; there are a ton of presets and then you can tweak any individual detail for each. Wash times are good; Consumer Reports listed the wash time for this machine at 90 minutes, but that must be the longest possible wash time you can get out of it or something, because on "normal" our loads finish in about an hour. It's a whole lot quieter than our old machine--not really an issue for us, since the machine is in our basement laundry room, but definitely a benefit for anyone with a main floor laundry. We're using Tide HE powder, and it doesn't need very much. About half as much as the lowest mark on the scoop indicates (about four tablespoons). I find that front load washers in general just don't need that much detergent; probably because they use so little water.

The machine plays a happy little song every time you turn it on. And Karen pointed out an interesting benefit of digital controls--because you have to spin the jog dial to select your settings every time you run a load, you never accidentally wash stuff on the wrong setting ("Whoops! I threw in those wool sweaters but forgot to take it off "hot").

So we like it a lot. Would buy again.

[Lunch of Kong]

Seconding Ben, just leave the door ajar when not in use.

I leave the detergent compartment open also. Let it all air out.

[Ranulf]

Thanks for the reply. I'm definately leaning towards the LG but need to look at the samsung machines and maytags. Its looking like Sears is the best bet though with a sale this week, maybe Bestbuy but I'm real wary of buying appliance from them. Costco didn't have much either.

[Lizard_King]

FWIW, the salesperson at Brandsmart said that she rarely recommends LGs because the instrument panel isn't covered by the warranty and is the most frequently defective part, which she estimated at up to a few 100$ replacement cost.

[Ben Sones]

She is mistaken--the instrument panel has a two-year warranty, along with all the rest of the electronics.

[Lizard_King]

She is mistaken--the instrument panel has a two-year warranty, along with all the rest of the electronics.
Mistaken is unlikely, I'm sure there's some complicated mechanic with what vendors are paid involved. We had already mentioned that five year extended warranty was a necessary part of the purchase so I didn't ask too many questions on that angle where I probably should have.

I really want to get one of those Samsung front loaders, but it's surprisingly hard to find a sale on the 1000$+ models. Well, surprising to me. I just want the illusion of a good deal, now that I've somehow implanted the need for an expensive replacement washer in my mind.

[Ranulf]

FWIW, the salesperson at Brandsmart said that she rarely recommends LGs because the instrument panel isn't covered by the warranty and is the most frequently defective part, which she estimated at up to a few 100$ replacement cost.

Now I read this... way to be a debbie downer man.

Mine get hopefully show up tomorrow morning. I got them at sears with the 3 year warranty.

[Lizard_King]

Now I read this... way to be a debbie downer man.

Mine get hopefully show up tomorrow morning. I got them at sears with the 3 year warranty.

Well, according to Sones it's all bullshit, and he sounds like he did his homework. I've shelved the whole washing machine project for now, because I hate making decisions about relatively unloveable but important appliances. The ancient top loader has another year in her yet, especially now that I know that the HE detergent I'd been using all this time wasn't merely using advertising talk for "More! Better!" with that label and apparently I need to scale back to common (quasi-hypoallergenic) detergent.

[Ben Sones]

The warranty on my LG covers:

Everything, parts and labor: one year
Control board: two years
Motor: ten years
Drum: lifetime

[Ranulf]

Good to know the panels are covered. They showed up yesterday on time and had no problems hooking things up. Its a tight fit in the closet but works ok. My only concern is the washer noise, its fairly loud in a few parts of the cycle in the house (1 floor home). I think I'm going to have to tinker with positioning. The music at the end of the washer/dryer cycle is rather amusing, beats the standard buzzer in older machines.