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RepoMan
10-12-2009, 03:01 PM
Jonathan Crane wanted to start a real Brutal Legend thread with the umlaut. As the one who started the original umlauted thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=39332&highlight=Schafer+Black+legend), I could not let this pass.

So, this thread really kicks off at about 1 am, when anyone who's bought the real game at midnight tonight (like I will be!) gets off the controller enough to froth a bit :-)

RepoMan
10-12-2009, 03:11 PM
Also, this thread will probably have some spoilers in it. If you want a no spoiler thread, you should make one that says "NÖ SPÖÏLËRS" in the title :-)

Umlauting so you don't have to, since 2009.

Tom Chick
10-12-2009, 03:14 PM
BTW, playing the multiplayer game has a big fat spoiler. :(

As much as I'm looking forward to some multiplayer Brutal Legends (aka Sacrifice, the 2009 Edition) with you guys, I can't recommend it until you've gotten through a bunch of the single player.

-Tom

ReptileHouse
10-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I just find it amusing that there are no umlauts in "umlaut."

Horrible Oscar
10-12-2009, 03:19 PM
(aka Sacrifice, the 2009 Edition)
Is it odd that I just got sold on this little tidbit? I was a little nervous after the threadbare gameplay in the demo, but that has me interested enough to cash out again.

Reed
10-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Seriously... I had to do a double take on that. The multiplayer is like Sacrifice!? That is awesome.

Tom Chick
10-12-2009, 03:27 PM
The dirty little secret about Brutal Legend is that it's an RTS. It's other stuff, too, but it's got a pretty hearty RTS at its core.

-Tom

flyinj
10-12-2009, 03:36 PM
Is it odd that I just got sold on this little tidbit? I was a little nervous after the threadbare gameplay in the demo, but that has me interested enough to cash out again.

Another funfact is that one of the programmers from Sacrifice is a game play programmer on Brutal Legend.

Bahimiron
10-12-2009, 10:01 PM
Just picked this up at Gamestop's midnight launch. I was making fun of it earlier, but ended up having to go out late anyway so figured, fuckit, midnight launch it is!

Terrible idea. I now do not want to go to work.

Damn it.

Tom Chick
10-12-2009, 10:17 PM
Maybe you might catch swine flu between now and when work starts?

By the way, if anyone wants the Six Degrees of Schafer achievement, you get an easy 15 gamerscore points if you play multiplayer with me! Send me an invite!

-Tom

Pogue Mahone
10-12-2009, 11:03 PM
Dude, I'm in! But I thought you said there were spoilers ... oh to hell with it. I'll send you an invite tomorrow.

Tom Chick
10-12-2009, 11:05 PM
Well, yeah, there are spoilers, but that's your problem. I just want to play with people I know. :)

-Tom

Bahimiron
10-12-2009, 11:09 PM
Man, you can tell the guy who designed this was a big adventure game maker.

There are points where I think 'wtf am I supposed to do next?' and then I apply crazy-ass adventure game logic and, bam, problem solved.

Edit: Also, possibly not a great late night game for apartment dwellers. As one might expect, this game will rock your entertainment system.

Thoro
10-12-2009, 11:31 PM
I just find it amusing that there are no umlauts in "umlaut."

Just like there are no diphthongs in "diphthong".

Jason Cross
10-12-2009, 11:34 PM
Mine arrives tomorrow. As with Uncharted 2.
I'll probably power through BL first, though. I almost always complete single-player before I go into multi, and I don't think BL will be an exception.

MattKeil
10-13-2009, 12:46 AM
BTW, playing the multiplayer game has a big fat spoiler. :(

Normally I don't care about spoilers all that much, but this kinda ticked me off. Basically, don't play multi until you've encountered all three factions in the single player game.

RepoMan
10-13-2009, 02:13 AM
Jesus. It's Sacrifice directed by Tim Schafer. The landscape... the clouds... the upwards beams of light... I'm getting fucking flashbacks. I must sleep... MUST sleep, baby wakes at 6:30 and it's 2:15... and work meeting at 9 am... but all I want to do is to DRIVE AROUND AND KICK SOME MORE ASS.

Heaven must wait.

intruder
10-13-2009, 02:20 AM
EG review (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/brutal-legend-review) 8/10

Scourge
10-13-2009, 06:16 AM
I hate America for getting this 3 days earlier than Europe.
Or should I hate Europe for getting it 3 days later?
Damn, I am confused. Better hate both then. In 3 days all shall süffer under the black wings of the darkness of my soul...or something. Ha.

Jazar
10-13-2009, 06:20 AM
Gamefly has let me down. I have nothing but both versions of Brutal Legend on my queue and they haven't shipped either yet.

jg93
10-13-2009, 07:10 AM
Thanks Tom Chick for taking food out of my childrens mouths. I'm now buying this today. Just what I need, more games ;)

Adam Sensoy
10-13-2009, 07:34 AM
BTW, playing the multiplayer game has a big fat spoiler. :(

As much as I'm looking forward to some multiplayer Brutal Legends (aka Sacrifice, the 2009 Edition) with you guys, I can't recommend it until you've gotten through a bunch of the single player.

-Tom

Hey TomChick,
Thanks for making me likely pick up this game even though I have no time to play it nor do I really like Jack Black or the metal theme of the game. However, I am one of the "Sacrifice is one of the best under appreciated games of all time" nerds, and I now really, really want to see how Brutal Legends builds on that formula.

Sincerely,
The Time I Don't Have

Adam Sensoy
10-13-2009, 07:35 AM
Gamefly has let me down. I have nothing but both versions of Brutal Legend on my queue and they haven't shipped either yet.

Hah, me too! Might just Amazon it at this point.

Xemu
10-13-2009, 07:37 AM
How playable is this with game-savvy kids around?

It has an M rating but that is so over and mis-used by the ESRB as to be almost worthless.

Dufresne
10-13-2009, 07:38 AM
Picked it up from Best Buy before work today, so I could get the Rock Band songs as well. I see this as a quality purchase all around. Can't wait to get home tonight and rock.

Killzig
10-13-2009, 07:41 AM
How playable is this with game-savvy kids around?

It has an M rating but that is so over and mis-used by the ESRB as to be almost worthless.
You can turn off the gore and put a profanity filter of sorts on. One of the reviews I read mentioned that they even plaster the parental advisory sticker over a middle finger response.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 07:42 AM
The way you turn on the gore and profanity filter is pretty awesome.

God. WHY AM I AT WORK?!

Brian Rucker
10-13-2009, 07:43 AM
Eurogamer turned me around. I was kinda skeptical myself about this since it seemed so overhyped, Jack Black can be annoying as hell (but I tend to like him anyhow at times) and I actually lived through the 70's metal era and couldn't find a lot to recommend it at the time. Maybe as better than disco? But what wasn't?

My order's in through Amazon. We'll see what we see. Sounds like Black at his disarming best and a game design with some real heart. Frankly the aspect of open world exploration is what flipped me on it from a design perspective. Had it been too linear I'd have passed.

Rock8man
10-13-2009, 07:47 AM
How playable is this with game-savvy kids around?

It has an M rating but that is so over and mis-used by the ESRB as to be almost worthless.

From the Eurogamer interview with Tim Schafer:


Eurogamer: Why did you include a feature that lets people bleep out the swearing?

Tim Schafer: Well, two things. Once I got a letter from someone saying how much they like playing Psychonauts with their kids, and I was thinking about that guy when I was making Legend and I was thinking: he's not going to be able to play this game with his kid. You just can't stop Jack or Ozzy from swearing, no matter what. And I didn't want to write 'frick' and 'frak' or whatever in the dialogue for them...

Also, Ozzy was talking about how it was really weird for him living in the States and watching the Osbournes there with all the bleeps, and then seeing it in the UK uncensored. It felt strange to him, jarring even, to hear all the swearing. He thought it was funnier when it was bleeped out, to make your imagination think of an even worse word. We liked the idea, so we made this thing that bleeps on the fly. It's not a feature that people demand, it's not a publisher demand, I just wanted to put it in.

It gets a lot of attention as secretly people do like to play these games with their kids, even if it's M-rated. It's nice that they can turn off the decapitations, turn off the swearing and not feel guilty about it. Then again my kids drop the f-bomb more than I do. Swearing doesn't seem to be important anymore, it used to be a big deal. I wasn't allowed to say 'fart' in my house when I was growing up. But now I'm all like 'fartfartfart'! Take that parents!

forgeforsaken
10-13-2009, 07:50 AM
Picked it up from Best Buy before work today, so I could get the Rock Band songs as well. I see this as a quality purchase all around. Can't wait to get home tonight and rock.

Cool, I didn't know that but preordered it when they were doing that buy 1 get 2nd half off deal. Off to pick it up at lunch.

IndridCold
10-13-2009, 07:51 AM
By the way, if anyone wants the Six Degrees of Schafer achievement, you get an easy 15 gamerscore points if you play multiplayer with me! Send me an invite!


If I'm correctly interpreting that getting that achievement has to do with your friends list and how connected it is to Schafer himself, I have to say that is the coolest achievement idea I've ever seen.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 08:15 AM
Two things.

A) Tom, will you accept invites from people who then immediately leave because they're just achievement whores but don't want to be spoiled?!

and

B) Anyone who didn't pre-order from Gamestop, didn't pre-order at all or otherwise don't have the Tenacious D guitar and want it. I've got an extra code, so drop me a PM and this evening I'll check and send out the code to whoever's sent me the most rockingest message.

RepoMan
10-13-2009, 08:29 AM
The viral multiplayer achievement's been done before. Anyone remember by who? It was in the first year or two of the 360's life and everyone got all excited, but I can't remember the game.

I'm'a keep my Tenacious D guitar code for myself, though, thangewveramuch :-D

I was going to play some before work this morning, but ran out of time. Oh well... <Annie> Toniiight, toniiight, I love you, toniiight, you're only twelve hours aaawaaaaaay.... </Annie>

Jazar
10-13-2009, 08:42 AM
Hah, me too! Might just Amazon it at this point.

I just got two emails so I'm apparently getting both versions. :P

Reed
10-13-2009, 08:56 AM
The viral multiplayer achievement's been done before. Anyone remember by who? It was in the first year or two of the 360's life and everyone got all excited, but I can't remember the game.
Yeah, there have been a few of these actually. I think it's a cool one to include. It'd be interesting to see the actual data on how quickly they spread.

Burnout and Mercenaries 2 are a couple that come to mind. And then there are some where you either play with a developer or defeat a developer. GTA IV had one of those. I'm sure completists hate them. It's gotta be all but impossible to get a few months down the road...

Dufresne
10-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Yeah, there have been a few of these actually. I think it's a cool one to include.

Burnout and Mercenaries 2 are a couple that come to mind. And then there are some where you either play with a developer or defeat a developer. GTA IV had one of those.

Guitar Hero 3 had it if you defeated someone from Neversoft, or someone who defeated someone defeated someone who defeated someone etc. who defeated someone from Neversoft.

qbakies
10-13-2009, 09:14 AM
Gamefly has let me down. I have nothing but both versions of Brutal Legend on my queue and they haven't shipped either yet.

Glad to know it's not just me. This is the first game I've ever had a problem with from Gamefly. I wonder if they under ordered copies. *UPDATE - Just got the SMS that it shipped today.

Rock8man
10-13-2009, 09:56 AM
I'm sure Tom will soon create a thread himself, linking to his review, but until then, here it is (http://fidgit.com/archives/2009/10/brutal_legend_is_a_heartfelt_h.php).

OrfBC
10-13-2009, 10:05 AM
There are only a few RTS missions and they're reasonably short.


So while I personally applaud Double Fine's decision to put an RTS at the heart of their game, I also have to wonder if that was a smart thing to do.

I keep reading that the single player is mostly RTS after a certain point, but also that there's just a few small RTS bits. Which is it? Just using this review as an example since it so conveniently implies both, not trying to point a finger. I love Sacrifice and RTS in general, so I'll be happy if there's plenty of it, but I know a lot of other people won't be, like Tom says.

Brooski
10-13-2009, 10:08 AM
I GOT BRUTAL LEGEND!!! How do I plug it in? Can I boot the disk drive?

BRUN

I love Sacrifice.

Matthew Gallant
10-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Copy editing notes: I saw a skipped word somewhere, but the important thing is that it's Kyle Gass, not Gas. K.G., Kage, Mr. Rage Kage if you're nasty.

Rock8man
10-13-2009, 10:15 AM
Copy editing notes: I saw a skipped word somewhere, but the important thing is that it's Kyle Gass, not Gas. K.G., Kage, Mr. Rage Kage if you're nasty.

Missing word is in this sentence:


So I feel a bit disingenuous gushing about good Brutal Legend is when many of you guys probably could have figured that out on your own.

bandidoquest
10-13-2009, 10:35 AM
I want this on the PC :~.

Kael
10-13-2009, 10:50 AM
I'm sure Tom will soon create a thread himself, linking to his review, but until then, here it is (http://fidgit.com/archives/2009/10/brutal_legend_is_a_heartfelt_h.php).

Its hard to get over the blistering negative feedback in the first paragraph. Knowing that Tom likes the game I suspect that he may have taken "despite these minor concerns its a great game" and turned it into "this game isnt very good, but the story is fun".

If I wasnt already a huge Schafer fan that review would make me less likely to buy the game, not more likely. Fortunalty I trust Schafer and I have been having a great time so far with the game.

Douglas on QTT
10-13-2009, 12:15 PM
The dirty little secret about Brutal Legend is that it's an RTS. It's other stuff, too, but it's got a pretty hearty RTS at its core.

-Tom
Coming soon to Three Moves Ahead?

Rob_Merritt
10-13-2009, 12:19 PM
Destructoid didn't like it very much. Especially the RTS parts.

http://www.destructoid.com/review-brutal-legend-151841.phtml#ext

RepoMan
10-13-2009, 12:28 PM
If Tom wasn't bothered by the RTS, then I'm pretty sure I won't be either. Heck, plenty of people thought Sacrifice was sloppy to control. I expect Brutal Legend to be sloppier than Sacrifice, but hopefully not painfully so.

zengonzo
10-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Assume everyone will be having this for the 360, or are there PS3ers about?

bahim? You still avoiding the wheezebox?

CLWheeljack
10-13-2009, 12:37 PM
Assume everyone will be having this for the 360, or are there PS3ers about?

bahim? You still avoiding the wheezebox?

I may be buying this for PS3. I don't play online enough to pay for a Gold account, so if there's a game I might want to mess with multiplayer in, I tend to get it for PS3.

I'll be waiting for comparison reports, and for Tom's (and others') multiplayer reviews first though.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 12:37 PM
I got it for the 360 since it seemed likely everyone else would.

My biggest problem on the 360 is that the tray doesn't like to open. But hey, if I'm just playing Brutal Legend for the rest of my life, then I'll never even notice!

Kael
10-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Im playing on my PS3, username Kael.

zengonzo
10-13-2009, 12:49 PM
Looks like I need to add a few more folks.

ProStyle
10-13-2009, 12:54 PM
Disappointing, curious to see how many units it moves. I can't bring myself to pick it up even after reading some very positive reviews, it all seems like style over substance when I consider the long term value.

sleepconvention
10-13-2009, 01:04 PM
Disappointing, curious to see how many units it moves. I can't bring myself to pick it up even after reading some very positive reviews, it all seems like style over substance when I consider the long term value.I haven't read a single review or seen a single piece of gameplay footage, but I bought it today. I have trust in Schafer.

Cubit
10-13-2009, 01:06 PM
Ars Technica's review isn't so hot either:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/2009/10/brutal-legend-more-opening-band-than-headliner.ars

mkozlows
10-13-2009, 01:13 PM
So when you think about it, Schafer has done some great writing, but has he ever designed really compelling gameplay?

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 01:15 PM
So when you think about it, Schafer has done some great writing, but has he ever designed really compelling gameplay?

Depends on what 'compelling' means.

Psychonauts was, for about 94% of its duration, flat out good gameplay. I don't know if it was compelling, but then again I don't speak Game Reviewer.

mkozlows
10-13-2009, 01:19 PM
Depends on what 'compelling' means.

Psychonauts was, for about 94% of its duration, flat out good gameplay. I don't know if it was compelling, but then again I don't speak Game Reviewer.

Well, what I mean by that is, Grim Fandango is a superb game -- but it's just an adventure game. You wander around, collect items, combine them to solve puzzles, &c. An old-school adventure game basically lives or dies on the strength of its writing/characters/setting, and those are all the things that made GF great. But the gameplay is just generic adventure gameplay, and a game with that gameplay sans great writing would be super mediocre.

I never played Psychonauts, but is the gameplay itself better than average, or is it just generic platforming set in a creative world with great writing?

LesJarvis
10-13-2009, 01:19 PM
I thought Psychonauts had pretty bad gameplay, enough so that I didn't make it further in than level two or three. The adventure games are somewhat harder to evaluate since that style of gameplay has fallen out of favor, but at least in the context of the genre Day of the Tentacle and Grim Fandango are both very good to excellent (though I'm not sure what Schafer's exact level of involvement was with the former), and Full Throttle was OK. But based on Psychonauts I'm not terribly surprised that BL doesn't play all that well.

Luke M
10-13-2009, 01:22 PM
From early feedback, it sounds like Double-Fine tried for innovative gameplay, which isn't their strength. Console RTSs haven't had their Halo yet, and maybe they never will. I guess Brutal Legend isn't it.

madkevin
10-13-2009, 01:35 PM
Well, I've been playing this since 11am, and I just took my first break now at 4:20. (Not on purpose.) And I'm loving it so far.

I'm not an RTS player, and I'm especially not a console RTS player, so I can't speak to that part of it. Seems OK to me in that I go around, tap resources, and kick ass. And it's definitely got that Schaferesque thing of "Is this thing something I can interact with now, or do I have to power up something and then come back?" - it took me a couple of hours to realize I can pyro the S&M dragon statues to get stuff, but there's other statuary that are bound up that I can't seem to do anything with. And the first couple of hours throws a lot of stuff at you, so much so that I tend to forget exactly abilities I can do and when.

BUT BUT BUT, this is a pure Tim Schafer game through and through. The art design is phenomenal - I spent a large portion of the afternoon driving around on a hunt quest* and checking out the outrageous scenery. (I'm especially fond of the massive wall of amps stretching out across the ocean into infinity.) The script is crazy funny, and the bits where you hit stuff real hard and drive your bad-ass souped-up hot rod are a blast. It reminds a lot of Full Throttle in tone, except way, way crazier.

Games like this make me happy I don't review games anymore. If I was trying to write a review, I'd feel compelled to point out some confusing or sloppy gameplay elements, which would belie the fact that I just spent five straight hours in front of my Xbox laughing my ass off while I had the most dreaded word in reviewdom: fun.

* Which, by the way, best surprise voice/character actor ever.

unbongwah
10-13-2009, 01:37 PM
I never played Psychonauts, but is the gameplay itself better than average, or is it just generic platforming set in a creative world with great writing?
I defer to Yahtzee on this (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/2-Psychonauts).

idrisz
10-13-2009, 01:42 PM
Games like this make me happy I don't review games anymore. If I was trying to write a review, I'd feel compelled to point out some confusing or sloppy gameplay elements, which would belie the fact that I just spent five straight hours in front of my Xbox laughing my ass off while I had the most dreaded word in reviewdom: fun.

it's quite simple, did you have fun with the gameplay or were you just laughing because of the writing and VO.

would you have the same type of fun just sitting on your couch watching 5 hours of comedy that you enjoy?

MattKeil
10-13-2009, 01:46 PM
it took me a couple of hours to realize I can pyro the S&M dragon statues to get stuff, but there's other statuary that are bound up that I can't seem to do anything with.

Ground pound them.

I didn't figure out the dragon statue thing until I was 60% through the game. 60%.

Tom Chick
10-13-2009, 01:47 PM
Madkevin, you're about to make the same mistake I made! I got through the entire game without realizing you could use Earthshaker (A+X) on those bound statues. But you definitely don't want to miss out on those guys.

-Tom

Dreamshadow
10-13-2009, 01:48 PM
Oh carp. Without even booting up the game..I think I figured out the spoiler.

*sigh*

madkevin
10-13-2009, 01:48 PM
would you have the same type of fun just sitting on your couch watching 5 hours of comedy that you enjoy?

Not at all. I'm laughing because I followed some weird little out of the way path and was greeted with some awesome piece of metalania, or because my car just learned to belch fire from the sides, or I just slow-motion cleaved a hair-metal dude in half. It's not just laughing at the cut scenes, although I'm doing that too.

Ground pound them, eh? BACK TO THE GAME!

Tom Chick
10-13-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't understand complaints that there's too much of the RTS gameplay in the single-player. There are maybe six missions, each scripted to have a sort of puzzle solution, like any single-player RTS. If there's a problem, it's that the missions are used to "gate" your progress through the storyline, so you have to play through them.

-Tom

madkevin
10-13-2009, 01:51 PM
Oh carp. Without even booting up the game..I think I figured out the spoiler.

*sigh*

You mean the thing about the hunt quest? I would be seriously surprised you could have figured out who I'm talking about unless they already spoiled it in previews or something.

Dreamshadow
10-13-2009, 01:53 PM
You mean the thing about the hunt quest? I would be seriously surprised you could have figured out who I'm talking about unless they already spoiled it in previews or something.


No..early on, people were saying 'Don't go into MP without having played the single player because there is apparantly a story spoiler... Well, I've seen a bunch of videos on the MP, and I've played the demo..so I think I figured out the spoiler. (And I've forgotten how to hide spoilers on this forum so I'm just not going to say. :/ )

delirium
10-13-2009, 02:01 PM
Games like this make me happy I don't review games anymore. If I was trying to write a review, I'd feel compelled to point out some confusing or sloppy gameplay elements, which would belie the fact that I just spent five straight hours in front of my Xbox laughing my ass off while I had the most dreaded word in reviewdom: fun.


This is pretty much what I needed to hear. Despite being a metalhead at heart, the mixed reviews have somewhat dampened my enthusiasm. If I can immerse myself in a world lovingly crafted in the image of all that is metal and enjoy smart/funny writing, even if the gameplay is only average, I think it's worth my money. I'm mostly concerned about the RTS element of the game, but I think I shall take my chances on it.

Tom Chick
10-13-2009, 02:02 PM
No..early on, people were saying 'Don't go into MP without having played the single player because there is apparantly a story spoiler... Well, I've seen a bunch of videos on the MP, and I've played the demo..so I think I figured out the spoiler.

Well, the good news is that now you can freely play multiplayer. :)

-Tom

Rock8man
10-13-2009, 02:17 PM
I never played Psychonauts, but is the gameplay itself better than average, or is it just generic platforming set in a creative world with great writing?

The platforming is received differently by different people. I'm a big fan of platformers in general, and for me, the feel of the jumping, double-jumping, levitation, ball-bouncing was all spot on. I just absolutely loved the feel of the platforming in Psychonauts, so I would have liked the game even if it had poorer writing and characters. But luckily, it didn't, and it is definitely the second best platformer of all time in my book, right behind Super Mario 64.

Coca Cola Zero
10-13-2009, 03:21 PM
I'm a huge fan of platformers and IMO the actual gameplay in Psychonauts is utter shit. Schafer is probably the most overrated game designer that exists, despite the fact that many people think he's underrated.

I mean, he makes decent overall experiences, but he doesn't really make good GAMES, IMO, and I'm including Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, etc in that, not just the newer output.

Don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of Grim Fandango and some of his other games as experiences, but the "game" aspects of them were, at best, tolerable. The reviews of Brutal Legend (even the positive ones) lead me to believe his newest game continues this trend so I'm skippin' it.

madpeon
10-13-2009, 03:24 PM
Did we play the same games?

Full Throttle?

Grim Fandango?

If these are bad games, I'm not sure I want to know what you consider good.

sleepconvention
10-13-2009, 03:44 PM
Did we play the same games?

Full Throttle?

Grim Fandango?

If these are bad games, I'm not sure I want to know what you consider good.I agree with this.

I find that Psychonauts had some of the most mature and profound gameplay in the history of the medium, and is close to or as good as Grim Fandango.

Anyways, I've played BL for about an hour so far, and though I'm not a metal fan, it is easily my game of the year - for both gameplay and content - but I'm a little disappointed more of a romp than a continuation of the pensive thematic complexity explored in his prior two games.

idrisz
10-13-2009, 03:46 PM
I find that Psychonauts had some of the most mature and profound writing/story in the history of the medium, and is close to or as good as Grim Fandango.

fix that for you.

I sometimes have the same feel as Coca Cola Zero, but then I don't really enjoy adventure games, most of them lacks interesting gameplay. I think that if I want to read/heard about mature and profund story, I should go read a book or watch a movie, not playing a game.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 03:46 PM
I fixed that for you.

I fixed that for you.

bloo
10-13-2009, 03:53 PM
Copy editing notes: I saw a skipped word somewhere, but the important thing is that it's Kyle Gass, not Gas. K.G., Kage, Mr. Rage Kage if you're nasty.

Nasty Man is in the game?

sleepconvention
10-13-2009, 04:02 PM
fix that for you.Uh, no, I meant gameplay. Using platforming mechanics as to act as psychologist - specifically, collecting emotional baggage and mental figments - perhaps though context was given by the writing and story.

idrisz
10-13-2009, 04:03 PM
Using platforming mechanics as to act as psychologist (collecting emotional baggage and mental figments)

so it's a platforming game, does it do anything special compare to other platforming games?

sleepconvention
10-13-2009, 04:14 PM
so it's a shooting game, does quantum of solace do anything special compare to other shooting games?fixed that for you

(low shot, but this debate has little to with the thread topic)

Tom Chick
10-13-2009, 04:16 PM
For those of you whinging about whether Psychonauts did anything special in terms of platformer gameplay, you can rest assured that Brutal Legend does something special in terms of RTS gameplay. It's the only RTS to truly follow-up on the genius of Sacrifice.

-Tom

idrisz
10-13-2009, 04:28 PM
fixed that for you

(low shot, but this debate has little to with the thread topic)

I don't really care if you point out I worked on Quantum of Solace, not lead designer, don't have to prove that I was right or wrong.

Using QoS as example, it was never billed as a genre breaking game, nor do we have some as flashy as Tim Schafer directing the boat.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 04:39 PM
Don't play it, idrisz. None of us who are playing it and loving it will really care that much.

Right now, though? It seems like you're just pissy that having a 'celebrity designer' is getting this game a wider audience and more coverage.

Edit: My bonus code is gone. Dufresne was not only the first person to send me a response, but he actually flat out wrote me some filk. That may not be metal, but it's pretty rockin'.

idrisz
10-13-2009, 04:43 PM
Don't play it, idrisz. None of us who are playing it and loving it will really care that much.

Right now, though? It seems like you're just pissy that having a 'celebrity designer' is getting this game a wider audience and more coverage.

Pissy? I don't even know him that well, I played one of his games, Psychonauts.

I merely agreed with Coca Cola Zero, saying it as I see it. Working in the industry, there aren't any "celebrity designer", it's a team effort.

Major Malphunktion
10-13-2009, 07:26 PM
I request a team up:
Tim Schafer and John Carmack.

Tim needs a good mechanic behind him to reach the next level. I agree with all the above, his game mechanics are 'ok' but his design is AWESOME. His games end up being fun from being as close to 'art' as game designers get, which is the opposite of most games having compelling game mechanics and technology and no soul.

I demand we get these guys to work together.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 07:28 PM
My dream teamup is Cliffy B, Rob Liefeld and Jonathan Blow.

Wholly Schmidt
10-13-2009, 07:38 PM
I request a team up:
Tim Schafer and John Carmack.

Tim needs a good mechanic behind him to reach the next level. I agree with all the above, his game mechanics are 'ok' but his design is AWESOME. His games end up being fun from being as close to 'art' as game designers get, which is the opposite of most games having compelling game mechanics and technology and no soul.

I demand we get these guys to work together.

Carmack doesn't seem like exactly what you need here. He's responsible for some amazing technology, but id hasn't been known for the quality of stuff you're doing while you're running around in their fancy engine in quite a while. "Carmack's game mechanics are 'ok' but his technology is AWESOME."

Cubit
10-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Dream team: Charles and Cliffski.

Equis
10-13-2009, 08:06 PM
Dream team: Charles and Cliffski.

Throw WarrenM in there and we got some gold!

RepoMan
10-13-2009, 08:20 PM
Dream team: Schafer, Black, and Soren motherfucking Johnson.

Pogue Mahone
10-13-2009, 08:39 PM
Needs more Meretzky!

Wholly Schmidt
10-13-2009, 09:06 PM
Schafer and Kojima.

Bahimiron
10-13-2009, 09:16 PM
Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert?

Omniscia
10-13-2009, 10:10 PM
I've only spent a couple of hours with this, but so far I'm loving it. It's getting a little difficult, though, so I should probably go forth into the world and try and up my skills a bit before continuing on. But that's no problem, since it's great fun just bombing around in my metal chariot and rocking out all the while.

jeffd
10-13-2009, 10:44 PM
I spent about an hour with this tonight. It is the rockingest fucking game I have ever played.

TheJare
10-13-2009, 11:17 PM
This game is a joy to watch, listen and play.

Dufresne
10-13-2009, 11:37 PM
Wow, I'm glad I didn't listen to any of the negative shit in reviews because it's now 2:30 in the morning and I've been playing since 7. I'm a huge metal fan, so there's that, but hot damn this game does NOT get boring.

People have been complaining about the RTS segments, but I'm having a blast with them. Although I'm sure they get harder, I've played three of them so far and none of them have taken me longer than 15-20 minutes to complete. (Playing on Brutal difficulty.) Yet despite them being relatively easy so far, it's fun as all hell to fly around the battlefield, land in the middle of a bunch of hairbangers and groupies, and unleash an earthshaker.

Scourge
10-14-2009, 01:19 AM
I didn't know that humans need reviews to decide whether to buy a Tim Schafer game or not. Do they also read reviews before buying food ?

zengonzo
10-14-2009, 04:14 AM
My dream teamup is Cliffy B, Rob Liefeld and Jonathan Blow.


Tera Patrick as producer, and we've got something.

peacedog
10-14-2009, 04:42 AM
This game is a joy to watch, listen and play.

Yes, this.

Cubit
10-14-2009, 06:50 AM
Giant Bomb review:

http://www.giantbomb.com/brutal-legend/61-20700/reviews/

OrfBC
10-14-2009, 06:55 AM
Is it me, or does this game not give the option to install to the 360 hard drive? Unless I'm misremembering, I usually install games by going to the (in this case) "Play Brutal Legend" box, pressing Y for Game Details, and choosing Install to Hard Drive. That option does not appear for this game. I've already checked that I have plenty of room on the thing.

peacedog
10-14-2009, 07:02 AM
I installed to my 360 hard drive.

I went to games library, selected brutal legend, and did it that way.

forgeforsaken
10-14-2009, 07:11 AM
Is it me, or does this game not give the option to install to the 360 hard drive? Unless I'm misremembering, I usually install games by going to the (in this case) "Play Brutal Legend" box, pressing Y for Game Details, and choosing Install to Hard Drive. That option does not appear for this game. I've already checked that I have plenty of room on the thing.

It was a bit odd for me too, but it eventually showed up.

Bahimiron
10-14-2009, 07:13 AM
Giant Bomb review:

http://www.giantbomb.com/brutal-legend/61-20700/reviews/

I'm bewildered by this statement...


As stunning and full of detail as the world is, the game doesn't provide enough motivation to go out and explore it.

...considering I spent about two hours last night just looking for dragons and legends.

I donno. I guess it's telling that I can read some of these middling reviews, not find anything to disagree with them about, and still come out thinking this game is far better than their numerical designation would indicate.

Killzig
10-14-2009, 07:17 AM
Is it me, or does this game not give the option to install to the 360 hard drive? Unless I'm misremembering, I usually install games by going to the (in this case) "Play Brutal Legend" box, pressing Y for Game Details, and choosing Install to Hard Drive. That option does not appear for this game. I've already checked that I have plenty of room on the thing.
I installed on my HDD just fine. Check again should be an option.

Brian Rucker
10-14-2009, 07:18 AM
This is one of those games that's different enough it'll be a test of reviewers rather than the other way around.

forgeforsaken
10-14-2009, 07:22 AM
Giant Bomb review:

http://www.giantbomb.com/brutal-legend/61-20700/reviews/

I'm absolutely not surprised by the review as it came from Ryan. He's been kind of wet blanket lately if you listen to the podcasts. I swear if Jeff didn't pull the Batman AA review from him he would have 3 starred that too.

Coca Cola Zero
10-14-2009, 07:35 AM
Carmack doesn't seem like exactly what you need here. He's responsible for some amazing technology, but id hasn't been known for the quality of stuff you're doing while you're running around in their fancy engine in quite a while. "Carmack's game mechanics are 'ok' but his technology is AWESOME."

I don't know if it is primarily attributable to Carmack or not, but IMO the game mechanics of id games tend to be vastly underrated, not in the sense that people say they are no good but rather that they just don't notice them because they just feel so natural (because they are good). For all of the complaints Doom 3 gets for the player not being able to hold a flashlight while shooting and the 2000 monster closets and all of that, the game (like all id games) feels very good to play moment-to-moment, IMO. Guns feel good to shoot, physics feel good (not realistic, but good), etc. You don't have to look far for even "AAA" games that get a lot of these small gameplay polish details wrong, and IMO (at least in terms of Psychonauts and earlier games... I haven't played Brutal Legend) this really is something Schafer has dropped the ball on more often than not, so I think I "get" what SolomonGrundy is saying.

Personally I'd probably pick Miyamoto over Carmack, though. Again, no single man is responsible for all aspects of how good a game feels and I do think Carmack and/or id are underrated in this aspect, but Miyamoto (and his teams and understudies) are so good at these little gameplay mechanic details that the plot of the game can be total nonsense, like a fat plumber rescuing some dumb broad from a giant turtle (for the 50th time) and the game will still be awesome. That sort of attention to the small details of gameplay if perfectly mixed with Schafer-esque plotting and characters would be pretty dreamy.

ProStyle
10-14-2009, 07:44 AM
I didn't know that humans need reviews to decide whether to buy a Tim Schafer game or not. Do they also read reviews before buying food ?
It is true, food critics do exist.

I'm not squaring all these Sacrifice comparisons with the reportedly clunky minion controls and melee button mashing, what's the deal?

I can see the relationship between the mana fountains and the fan geysers for resources as you navigate with a single wizard, but other than that...

Dufresne
10-14-2009, 07:48 AM
It is true, food critics do exist.

I'm not squaring all these Sacrifice comparisons with the reportedly clunky minion controls and melee button mashing, what's the deal?

I can see the relationship between the mana fountains and the fan geysers for resources as you navigate with a single wizard, but other than that...

I don't really understand the complaints that the minion controls are clunky. I've found that anything I've needed my minions to do has been easily accomplished with the (admittedly limited) set of commands I'm given to work with. Especially once you're able to fly, placing command points and saying GO THERE is very easy to pull off. For me, the RTS portions of the game have been smooth and painless overall.

Moore
10-14-2009, 07:51 AM
Is it me, or does this game not give the option to install to the 360 hard drive? Unless I'm misremembering, I usually install games by going to the (in this case) "Play Brutal Legend" box, pressing Y for Game Details, and choosing Install to Hard Drive. That option does not appear for this game. I've already checked that I have plenty of room on the thing.
Sometimes that option takes a sec to show.

delirium
10-14-2009, 08:45 AM
For me, the RTS portions of the game have been smooth and painless overall.

Have they been enjoyable?

peacedog
10-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Have they been enjoyable?

Well I haven't done many yet, but yes. 3 simple d-pad presses causes my minions (when I have them) to attack "over there" (option only selectable when there is soemthing to attack, and I have never exerpienced an issue with this and I have been using it), defend "right here", and "follow me". The first real boss battle after you gain the ability to get minions requires you to put these techniques to use. It's simple.

I'm in another area where I employed minions to help in an escort quest, and again had no problems. And learned that the Mosh Pit rocks.

Rock8man
10-14-2009, 09:06 AM
I have mixed feelings towards the RTS aspect so far. One thing this game has really made me appreciate is the hilly terrain of Sacrifice. I'd never truly realized before how useful that was. Being able to climb the nearest hill quickly and see an overview of the battle was really useful. In the couple of battles I've conducted in Brütal Legend so far, I've had a problem where I'm not really sure what's going in certain areas of the battlefield until I go around a corner, or some kind of visual obstruction.

I'm hoping this is alleviated later, since someone upthread mentioned that later you gain the ability to fly above the battlefield to see what's going on. I'm sure that will help. And again, Sacrifice didn't need the ability to fly because it's terrain was so hilly.

DragonPup
10-14-2009, 09:28 AM
FACE MELTER!!!!!!!!!

Rock8man
10-14-2009, 09:32 AM
FACE MELTER!!!!!!!!!

Partial spoiler......


That seems way too powerful to me. I went near two squads of enemies clustered in the same area and did a face melter and they all died instantly. Which was Super Awesome in single player, but that seems way too powerful an ability for multiplayer.

Bahimiron
10-14-2009, 09:34 AM
Your multiplayer opponent will have Face Melter too.

And he will wisely keep you mobbed so attempting a Face Melter is chancy business.

Dufresne
10-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Have they been enjoyable?

I'm having a great time with the RTS segments, yes.

RepoMan
10-14-2009, 10:01 AM
[[SPOILERS up to about 20% of the game]]
















I played for about four hours last night, and I want MORE.

The earthshaker strings ROCK HARD. I got them near the end of the evening last night, not too long before the first stage battle (the only one I've played yet), and man, there's nothing like getting your mosh pit on, running into a triple squad of groupies, releasing your pit, and blasting an earthshaker. Especially festive is that it only shakes the bad guys, so you get this cloud of groupies exploding out of your cluster of bangers. TOTALLY SWEET.

I've been grinding side missions because that's how I roll in these games (same deal in Prototype -- MUST HAVE ALL SKILLS!!!). Burning Axe and the A-A-X torch skill are both really really handy -- seems like DOT FTW in this game; the big spiky-glove guys go down much quicker when torched. I haven't tried the razor axe, though; I probably will once I get more fame points than I know what to do with.

Visiting Ozzy just never gets old.

Are the motorcycle dudes actually good for much? Maybe I just don't have my army control down very well yet, but it's hard for me to tell whether they're getting the job done.

Indeed, the mosh pit does also rock -- I was shocked when I engaged it and suddenly became a baddie-bouncing death squad. I love my bangers!

Need... more... lore... damn it's going to be hard to remember where I've looked and where I haven't, but I guess that's tough noogies to me, huh?

I too wish to be able to put beacons anywhere I want. HEY TIM SCHAFER, CAN YOU ADD THAT IN A PATCH? OR EVEN IN SOME DLC, I'M SLUTTY THAT WAY, KPLZTHXBAI!!!

Rock8man
10-14-2009, 10:06 AM
Visiting Ozzy just never gets old.


Ozzy is awesome in this game. He seems to be channeling Austin Powers.

RepoMan
10-14-2009, 10:07 AM
Oh yeah, and FUCK, this game is beautiful. The number of different kinds of weird shit in the sky is really impressive. I saw a fucking aurora at one point, and I almost freaked right out. My wife was next to me watching me play through and I turned to her and said in a shaking voice, "That... is... SO... AWESOME. I'm having a GEEKGASM."

Dufresne
10-14-2009, 10:15 AM
The bikers are actually pretty effective. You can tell they're doing their job if you see a glowing yellow ring around the feet of your soldiers. This ring also appears around the feet of enemy soldiers if they're getting healed, so if you see that it's a good idea to seek out and destroy any nearby glamhogs.

Definitely agree about the earthshaker strings, since that attack is one of the most common ones I use.

As for axes, I've tried out the fiery axe, the lightning axe, and the bloodlust axe, and the fiery one definitely seems to be the most effective, which is weird as it's one of the first ones you can get.

My one big complaint with Brutal Legend falls into the increasingly more prevalent issue of "I don't have an HD TV so I can't read the goddamn text." It's better than most games these days, but I still can't read some of the words. The Metal Forge tells me I have to climb the something to something something Mt. Rockmore.

RepoMan
10-14-2009, 10:31 AM
Thanks, good tips on the bikers.

You'll know when you find Mt. Rockmore. Needless to say, it's totally awesome. My wife was really trying to get me to figure that part out, and when I did, it was clear that it's one of those things you'll know immediately when you see it.

DragonPup
10-14-2009, 11:51 AM
Lionwhyte has some disturbing statues of himself....

peacedog
10-15-2009, 06:28 AM
Gah, I couldn't figure out how to free the dragon statues at first (and didn't they show that off in a pre-release gameplay vid>), thinking I needed to find a special rift or unlock a power. Now I need to go revisit a bunch.

Omniscia
10-15-2009, 06:41 AM
I figured it out almost immediately, but it took me a while to realize that I had, because while I was doing the right thing, I was doing it from too close a distance. Once I backed up a bit, things worked fine.

Brian Rucker
10-15-2009, 06:58 AM
What are those green smoking cones in the ground here and there? I figured out how to unlock everything else but I just come up to those and find none of my attacks or riffs works to turn them on. Eddie's not much help. He just speculates that they look familiar and probably go down a long way or something like that.

I haven't gotten too far in yet, just past the spider boss, and then I wasted alot of time exploring.

Early impressions? I think I need to be in the right mood, or stoned, (which could be the same thing) to enjoy this as much as it seems to deserve. The characterizations are fun, the setting itself is really very clever, and the gameplay isn't terrible - but I haven't encountered anything that required real strategy yet. It's mainly puzzle-solving stuff to the extent it takes that much work.

The vehicle content seems limited but I haven't unlocked anything for the car yet. I went driving around looking for jumps or things to do but nothing seemed to be anything - I hit a couple obvious ramps with my nitrous blowing flames everywhere and still nothing. The wilderness is really very basic. I read in one review about the unique "ecology" which I take to mean there's one big kind of monster that chases around and eats all the other mobs and NPCs it runs across.

While there are some spectacular views and some little side content things like ambushes to do or old relics to raise I'm not feeling really compelled to explore. This isn't Fallout 3 where the entire landscape feels peppered with scenarios and encounters right and left.

Maybe I just need to stick to the main story. It's not close to compelling but I do like the characters a great deal. Wandering around isn't proving too fruitful so maybe plowing straight ahead is the way to go.

Rock8man
10-15-2009, 07:02 AM
The "green smoking cones in the ground" will be explained soon in the story, don't worry. There's nothing you can do with them yet.

Drastic
10-15-2009, 07:32 AM
The jumps and ramps you'll find here and there will usually aim at little clouds of firefly sparkles, which of course have a much more metal name which I don't remember. When you jump your car through them, it pleases the gods of metal, and thus you gain a small amount of fire tributes when you nail the jump.

Ozzy should be the shopkeeper in every game. I especially love how I've been into the motor forge umpty times, and I don't think I've been greeted the same way twice.

Dufresne
10-15-2009, 07:38 AM
The vehicle content seems limited but I haven't unlocked anything for the car yet. I went driving around looking for jumps or things to do but nothing seemed to be anything - I hit a couple obvious ramps with my nitrous blowing flames everywhere and still nothing.

You can tell any of the designated "big jumps" in the game because they have a small swarm of glowing blue bugs ("lightning plugs") flying in the air. Sending your car through the middle of one of those swarms causes them to disperse, and you get fire tributes. (Edit: Damn, beaten.)

They're actually all over the place. I'm surprised you haven't seen any yet.

By the way, if anyone's trying to get the "Silence, groundwalker!" achievement, just drive your car over the cliffs to the north, hitting nitro right before you go over it. It's a good 6-7 second fall to the beach below. Actually, I don't think you even need nitro, but it makes it more awesome.

Tom Chick
10-15-2009, 10:44 AM
Brian, I'm the one who wrote the comment about ecology. It's not as dynamic as you're making it sound, but it's explained in some of the story missions, and as you progress through the game's different types of terrains. There will be dynamic battles going on after a certain point in the storyline.

But it sounds like you need to progress through the storyline a bit more. You'll also find that it unlocks more areas for you to explore.

-Tom

RepoMan
10-15-2009, 10:45 AM
I got that achievement purely by accident when trying to beat that Fletus fucker at the race below Mt. Rockmore. Bastard bumped me off the road just as I'd hit the nitro. And off the first bridge. And off the second bridge. Multiple times. BASTARD! Finally I got the hang of cutting inside him at the very first hairpin turn, and then not fucking up -- and spamming the nitro the rest of the way -- did me fine.

Then I went to the shop and bought all the car upgrades, and then I never got around to racing him again. Tonight, though, tonight I will wipe the floor with him. Unless his car gets upgraded too to match mine... which would suck....

Last night I advanced hardly any of the plot; just spent two hours grinding, grinding, grinding. I have an unhealthy attachment to grinding, it seems. I just like clearing all those little pushpins off the map. The extra skills and car goodies don't hurt either.

It's always entertaining to run across a mob of razorgirls and bangers chasing a porcupine. The bangers just follow the porcupines around at very close range while the razorgirls take potshots at it. Finally a potshot kills it and it blows up, wasting several bangers. Those lovable lunkheads, they never learn... :-)

I also enjoyed the side mission that was about keeping the suave bikers away from the hapless banger trying to chat up the cute groupie. I just made a mosh pit and beat the shit out of them all. Kind of like a very slow-motion melee Crimsonland.

I also love jumping through sparklies; the little fairies or whatever are so cute!

Tom Chick
10-15-2009, 10:50 AM
Last night I advanced hardly any of the plot; just spent two hours grinding, grinding, grinding. I have an unhealthy attachment to grinding, it seems. I just like clearing all those little pushpins off the map.

I hear you. I've finished the storyline and cleared all the pushpins off the map, and I still can't stop playing. I basically drive around looking for bound dragons and legend stones, barging in on occasional battles to earn fire tribute so I can buy the last few forge upgrades.


I also enjoyed the side mission that was about keeping the suave bikers away from the hapless banger trying to chat up the cute groupie. I just made a mosh pit and beat the shit out of them all. Kind of like a very slow-motion melee Crimsonland.

Nice.


I also love jumping through sparklies; the little fairies or whatever are so cute!

So gay! You didn't even realize they're "lightning plugs"!

-Tom

RepoMan
10-15-2009, 11:22 AM
I have a four-year-old daughter. Last night she wanted me to make up a Tintin story starring her (we've been reading a lot of Tintin lately at bedtime, and yes, I do mean reading -- she voices all Tintin's dialogue, reading it herself!).

So I made up a detective mystery about how Tintin needed her help to find who stole Bianca Castafiore's jewels. The door was locked; it was a third-story window; there was no way in or out. But there was this weird sparkly dust all over the room. My trusty daughter immediately identified it as fairy dust, and then sprinkled some on herself, Tintin, and Captain Haddock, turning them all into fairies (which of course perturbed Haddock severely). Then they all flew to fairyland, picking up Winnie the Pooh, Piglet, and Christopher Robin on the way, and tracked down the miscreant fairy (who, it turned out, was jealous of Bianca Castafiore's singing voice, and wanted to upset her so much she couldn't sing for the Fairy Queen).

Then I went right from that into the Brutal Legend fun-fest. So I kind of had fairies on the brain, you might say. "Lightning plugs", shyeah right, I know fairies when I see them :-)

Dufresne
10-15-2009, 11:49 AM
I got that achievement purely by accident when trying to beat that Fletus fucker at the race below Mt. Rockmore. Bastard bumped me off the road just as I'd hit the nitro. And off the first bridge. And off the second bridge. Multiple times. BASTARD! Finally I got the hang of cutting inside him at the very first hairpin turn, and then not fucking up -- and spamming the nitro the rest of the way -- did me fine.

Fletus as a character is awesome, but his missions are probably the most frustrating and have required the most restarts by me. I have the "excessive" performance upgrade on the Deuce and he's still faster than I am when I'm not using nitro. You really do have to hit the nitro at every opportunity and learn how to optimize the course, taking every shortcut possible.

One question I have for people who are there. What's the best way to take care of the Brood? (The baby carriages.) Those things keep demolishing me; one by itself is a "not this thing again," two or more are "oh shit."

Edit: Well at least now I know how to deal with RepoMan's brood. Fairies!

Tankero
10-15-2009, 11:50 AM
That's great stuff! That was quite the paternal-pride gymnastic stretch to fit it into the thread, but hey, you pulled it off with minimal herniation. Commendable!

Brian Rucker
10-15-2009, 12:02 PM
I'll give it another shot tonight.

Still, when I think "open world exploration" usually I'm thinking that means I can do it out of the box rather than having to unlock it piecemeal. After reading your review of the RTS aspect of the game, though, I'm starting to think of the campaign more as an extended tutorial, with loads of extra flourishes, than the full monty and the gated access to content makes more sense.

Drastic
10-15-2009, 12:05 PM
After freeing ten serpent statues, I now wish I'd scoured the first area more diligently before it got all uglified.

Tom Chick
10-15-2009, 12:46 PM
After reading your review of the RTS aspect of the game, though, I'm starting to think of the campaign more as an extended tutorial, with loads of extra flourishes, than the full monty and the gated access to content makes more sense.

They're really two separate games.

The single player includes a few missions that use the RTS, with you only ever playing one faction. But there's so much more to the world than the RTS, which is a relatively small portion of the gameplay. What it really comes down to, Brian, is three islands. You have to unlock each island by playing missions, not unlike a GTA. But once you're on an island, you're free to do a whole bunch of different things.

The multiplayer just uses the fiction of the single-player world. It is very much its own game: an RTS built to be played on a console system. I suspect it's been swept under the carpet because EA knows it's not going to sell as many copies. But it's there, it stands on its own, and it's great.

-Tom

OrfBC
10-15-2009, 04:25 PM
So this big reveal that I'm supposed to wait for before I play multi...Will I know it when I see it? Is there a non-spoilery way I could be told when it is?

Tom Chick
10-15-2009, 04:29 PM
Once you've heard "Mr. Crowley" by Ozzy Osbourne, you're cleared to jump into multiplayer.

-Tom

Angie Gallant
10-15-2009, 04:37 PM
Once you've heard "Mr. Crowley" by Ozzy Osbourne, you're cleared to jump into multiplayer.

-Tom

That this is legitimate advice is just more evidence that this is an awesome game.

Drastic
10-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Fletus as a character is awesome, but his missions are probably the most frustrating and have required the most restarts by me. I have the "excessive" performance upgrade on the Deuce and he's still faster than I am when I'm not using nitro. You really do have to hit the nitro at every opportunity and learn how to optimize the course, taking every shortcut possible.
I didn't get the impression he's actually faster, it felt more like he was just as. The main problem was that the courses are narrow, and if he so much as brushes the Deuce, he doesn't budge and the Druid Plow's now facing backwards, if not wedged into a tree, or sent plummeting off a cliff. It's just not right that the Squealer's metal is apparently heavier than your own.

Did I throw the horns when the achievement for 'completed all race missions' popped up? Damn right I did.

MattKeil
10-15-2009, 04:44 PM
At max performance upgrade, the Deuce outpaces the Squealer without breaking a sweat, or at least it did when I raced him the final three times. The only challenge was getting past his physics-abusing collision-ignoring ass, because he always started in front of me.

Wholly Schmidt
10-15-2009, 05:12 PM
Ok, done the first two RTS sections, if we're counting that first one as a real "RTS section" and not just a "gimped tutorial". It felt like stupid chaos without the ability to get a better view of the playing field in that first battle, and it isn't helped by fighting units that look so much like your own. I was dying left and right and couldn't keep both merch booths up at once for very long, but hey, I won.

Then in the second battle, yay! The change in perspective (and the easier control it allows) made for a much more fun fight. Now I'm not dreading the next one anymore.

Rasputin
10-15-2009, 05:59 PM
At max performance upgrade, the Deuce outpaces the Squealer without breaking a sweat, or at least it did when I raced him the final three times. The only challenge was getting past his physics-abusing collision-ignoring ass, because he always started in front of me.

QFT.

Also, there's a legend statue up in the frozen north that's covered in snow. I can't activate it normally, is there some power up or world event that I'm waiting on? Why does the fire not melt the snow?!?

forgeforsaken
10-15-2009, 08:26 PM
Ok, speaking of the snow. The first hunter quest you get up there for the horses, where the hell are they? I don't think I've seen a single one.

Drastic
10-15-2009, 08:35 PM
You won't actually see them for awhile, they're past the snows and swamps as your tour of liberation presses on towards the Sea of Black Tears.

BigWeather
10-15-2009, 09:32 PM
SPOILERS follow:







When I first meet the tear drinkers in battle I'm getting my arse handed to me. I can reliably get the three riders to help me but I just can't beat that final army. The hair people seem to have a hojillion health and I haven't found a great way to deal with the brides -- they just cripple my efforts. I'm playing on Brutal (and probably shouldn't, but durn it I want that 'chievie) and getting destroyed -- any hints? I really don't want to drop down from Brutal and lose the achievement after having got this far.

Funkula
10-15-2009, 09:55 PM
Well, I played on Normal so this may not help much, but what I did was to keep my army close to the stage, occasionally flying out solo to pick up one of the neutral fan geysers (after an enemy force destroyed it and moved on), and use the spotlights to pick off brides and medusae. Focus on spending your cash as it comes in and keep your army decent sized (and don't forget to upgrade the stage) and just be ready to lose most/all of your guys in the final wave. Final wave is also a good time to get in the middle of things and play every battle-relevant solo you have.

delirium
10-16-2009, 12:10 AM
I'm up to the battle where I first get to use the wings, and I'm realizing that I suck at the RTS parts of the game. I'm pretty RTS-challenged in general, so this doesn't come as a surprise to me, but I'm having a really hard time keeping track of what's going on.

I know how to set points to attack and defend and all that jazz, but how do the different groups of units work? If I set the attack point on something and hit the button to make my units go there, will all my guys go to that spot or just the ones I'm close to? What if I want to select a particular unit to do something, but not the whole group? Furthermore, how do I know which units I even have in play and how do I figure out where they are all scattered?

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I've never played any of the other games of which these mechanics are based off so this is all new to me.

schurem
10-16-2009, 01:40 AM
According to Schafer the Man Himself (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/brutallegend/video/6215267), its best not to divide your troops, but to lead a big lump of them yourself, using your powers and combination attacks to smite the opponent. Perhaps he has no idea how to play his own game (http://ps3.gamespy.com/playstation-3/vivendi-games-double-fine-project/1035339p1.html).

Tom Chick
10-16-2009, 02:28 AM
Delirium, I can help!

When you give orders with the d-pad, they apply to everyone in the vicinity. They will not apply to units that aren't in the vicinity. Now, you might wonder what "in the vicinity" means. I'm not sure myself, but it's a pretty liberal definition. I've never had a problem with units not picking up orders because they're at the edge of my command range. But I'm still inclined to keep an eye on them to make sure.

The way I do this is to pull back a bit and note the beams of light rising into the sky from each unit after I give an order. And each unit will have a beam of light rising into the sky based on its orders. This is how you know where your units are and what they're doing. The lights are color coded based on the color of the order. Blue is defend, purple is escort, orange is attack, and green is going to a beacon.

But when you give an order, the guys on the other side of the map aren't going to respond to it. You have to go over there and tell them what to do. However, there's one exception and it's important. The "Rally" guitar solo summons everyone on the map to your position. If you've gotten too far flung, just rock out a Rally solo to regroup. It's very handy. I do it a lot as a sort of panic move. "Oh, crap, whereareyouguys? Youbettergetoverherequick!"

Now this shouldn't be happening too much, because Schafer's right that it's best not to split your forces, at least in terms of having two groups*. But it can be valuable to send off a single guy to attack a merch booth, or a fan leech. So here's how that works.

Designate the target with your beacon. This is the left bumper. Get used to remembering where you've put your beacon. It's always very important to know where your beacon is and to put it somewhere useful. That left-press on the d-pad is your most flexible tool.

So you put your beacon on some lone merch booth the other guy isn't defending. Then you land among your units and hold down the "Y" button. Don't press it! *Hold* it down! Keep it held with your right thumb. You'll notice that everyone around you freezes. They stop what they're doing. (Don't worry, you haven't canceled their previous orders. You've just paused them until you let up the button.)

Now with your right thumb, move the analog nub around. As you move your view, you'll notice that you highlight the unit you're looking at. It will pulse blue. While it's pulsing, press left on the d-pad. Repeat as necessary if you want to include more units.

Now let up on the "Y" button.

The units that pulsed blue will head off towards the merch booth. They'll attack it when they get there, to the exclusion of all else. (If you want them to attack the booth but also defend themselves from enemy units, put the beacon *near* the merch booth instead of *on* it.)

Note that you can use this to give a single unit any order. For instance, move everyone out, then tell one dude to defend a location by giving him the "Hold" order (press down on the d-pad).

The controls in Brutal Legend certainly have a bit of a learning curve, but they're really efficient and ultimately even graceful. This is very much how Sacrifice worked, but Sacrifice had a mouse, so it also included more commands for things like formations and special abilities. Brutal Legend doesn't play at that fine a level. But it does a great job of giving you the tools you need to manage your army.

-Tom

* I was fortunate to get to play a couple of games with Tim Schafer and in one of them, the first thing he did was split his units into two groups and send each group after a separate fan leech. The hypocrite! :)

Rorschach
10-16-2009, 06:47 AM
I lost the first encounter with the Drowning Doom because I put to much fan power into upgrading my stage and not enough into pumping out tier 1 (lvl 1) units and upgrading the units. Upgraded Razorgirls and Headbangers are nasty and they look cool. I'd maybe call up a Bouncer at the end when the vehicles came out but mainly beat the battle with a fully loaded stage of upgraded Razors and Bangers.

Matthew Gallant
10-16-2009, 06:57 AM
Is there any way to know when Doviculus has launched a needle? I haven't picked up on any audio cues and so I don't know where he's gone with a batch until they're deep into my territory messing up a tower. Is there a mini-map?

Dufresne
10-16-2009, 07:38 AM
I start the RTS segments by immediately queuing up a ton of headbangers and razor girls and flying around the map as fast as I can to find all of the neutral fan geysers.

I set a waypoint on the farthest one possible, fly back to the stage, and tell whatever units have been build there, (usually one or two groups,) to book it over there. Then I fly to the next one, set a waypoint, fly back to the stage, (where another group or two will have been built,) and tell them to head to the second one. Rinse and repeat.

Doing it this way, I rarely see the AI take even a single neutral point. Plus, I've found the AI will only really attack one tower at a time and won't vary their strategy, so when you figure out which tower they're attacking, you can set your rally point there and have any units you build immediately head to the front line, which you then start pushing forwards.

*** SOME SPOILERS TO FOLLOW ***

Maybe the RTS elements just clicked with me, but I beat the game last night playing on Brutal difficulty and I never lost one of these segments. Also they weren't nearly the epic 2-hour battles some people are describing. The longest one for me was about 30 minutes, which was the last Drowning Doom battle. For a few seconds I thought I was close to losing in the last battle with Doviculus when he summoned his uber units, but then realized at that point the battle's essentially won.

Speaking of which, the music in the last few segments had me squealing with glee. "Murmaider" in the last Drowning Doom fight, "Superbeast" versus Doviculus' army, and "Painkiller" against Doviculus himself, in such quick succession was joyous. I was laughing a bit though because this is the second game I own where "Painkiller" is a final song.

Josemas
10-16-2009, 09:16 AM
Once you've heard "Mr. Crowley" by Ozzy Osbourne, you're cleared to jump into multiplayer.

-Tom

So how sad will I be if I jump straight into the multiplayer? I am enjoying the single player but I just don't have much time to play, and I am afraid if I wait for ozzy it will take several weeks and the multiplayer community will have moved on.

Tom Chick
10-16-2009, 09:35 AM
Yeah, that's a tough call. I'd personally recommend waiting. The spoiler might not be a big deal to some people, but I was pretty bummed. :(

-Tom

RepoMan
10-16-2009, 09:43 AM
The spoilers are getting further into the game than I am, so I'm posting this blind to say that I'm recusing myself from this thread until I catch up a bit, which won't be for another few nights, probably.

And damn, the razor-girl-on-the-shoulders makes for some fantastic Tollusk hunting.

Also, I think I know the spoiler already from having seen some of the trailer videos -- possibly even the montage at the end of the demo. But just in case, I'm gonna lay low.

Funkula
10-16-2009, 09:44 AM
SPOILERS, FAIRLY GENERIC BUT SPOILERS NONETHELESS

One of the main characters leaves and becomes the head of one of the other playable armies. It's not exactly impossible to see coming but it's a major plot point.

There, now you can decide whether you want to wait and find out who it is or jump into multi.

Incidentally, I finished the game yesterday and I think it's pretty damn good but ultimately not game of the year material. Its positive aspects are almost entirely in the story and art, while the gameplay is pretty vanilla.

Reldan
10-16-2009, 09:47 AM
It occurs to me that in my limited forays into multiplayer I was trying to multi-task a bit too much and did not realize that if I ordered my guys to a checkpoint ON an enemy merch booth my guys would not defend themselves if attacked.

It really seems like a game built around the idea of "mass a couple armies and have them clash" with the winner being he who used his unit mix and double-teams the most effectively. I don't have a huge problem with this (aside from it not being the style of RTS I usually enjoy), but understanding that's where this game is coming from means I need to be thinking more on tactics and less on strategy.

DragonPup
10-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I laughed a bit when I saw the KISS army make its appearance. :D

delirium
10-16-2009, 10:09 AM
Delirium, I can help!


Thanks, Tom! I figured you might be able to help, and well, that was very helpful!

Tom Chick
10-16-2009, 10:10 AM
It really seems like a game built around the idea of "mass a couple armies and have them clash" with the winner being he who used his unit mix and double-teams the most effectively.

And spells. A factions' spells are an important part of it advantages.

-Tom

Matthew Gallant
10-16-2009, 11:20 AM
Oh, do you ever get a quicker means of travel between regions of the map or do you always have to drive?

forgeforsaken
10-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Oh, do you ever get a quicker means of travel between regions of the map or do you always have to drive?

Being able to use the Motor Forges as warp gates would be grand...

Dufresne
10-16-2009, 12:01 PM
Being able to use the Motor Forges as warp gates would be grand...

I was kind of shocked that wasn't an option. It seems like such an obvious decision.

Drastic
10-16-2009, 12:05 PM
One of my mild disappointments is the side missions mostly all being repeats. That was brought into sharp focus after clearing out a cave for a nice family of bats. There should have been more missions akin to that, as you roam about the land bringing the light of metal into the freakish inhabitants' lives, and fewer repeats of race/cannon assists/death racks/canned fights.

CaldeDan
10-16-2009, 03:00 PM
I spent an hour trying to beat the first race side-quest right when it first became available. Took awhile to figure out, but it's doable. I probably should have waited for Druid Plow upgrades in hindsight.

This game has been great on introducing me to new bands too.

RepoMan
10-16-2009, 03:17 PM
Yeah, I raced Fletus again and aced him the first time. It was an easier race (up from the beach), but still, it was almost trivial. I think the nitro upgrade is more significant than the perf upgrade -- Fletus don't have nitro, so a longer boost is a bigger advantage against him.

madkevin
10-16-2009, 04:35 PM
Goddamn, I got my ass handed to me twice (on Normal) during the penultimate RTS battle near the end of the game before I sussed what the game wanted me to do, and now Doviculus is walking over me like I ain't even there. FUCK YOU, TAINTED COIL. DIMMU BORGIR SUCKS ASS.

Horrible Oscar
10-16-2009, 06:46 PM
Wow, uh, that felt pretty short. I really need to break this habit of barreling through the main quest in games with a world to explore.

Drastic
10-16-2009, 07:24 PM
It did feel like it ended fairly abruptly.

On the other hand, DECAPITATIOOOOOOOOOON!

Dufresne
10-16-2009, 08:14 PM
It did feel like it ended fairly abruptly.

On the other hand, DECAPITATIOOOOOOOOOON!

Yeah, I thought that the showdowns with the Drowning Doom and Tainted Coil would be spaced out similarly to the battles with Lionwhyte and the Drowning Doom. Each capping off a third of the game.

I was going into the Sea of Black Tears thinking I would have to return to the first area afterwards and do more missions to take on Doviculus. Then everyone kept talking about "finishing this" and I realized I was almost done. Made me sad.

On another note, I just tried out multiplayer online for the first time and got my ass handed to me. The strategies that work so well for me against the AI definitely DON'T work against a human opponent. I did get the Six Degrees achievement though.


FUCK YOU, TAINTED COIL. DIMMU BORGIR SUCKS ASS.
On the other hand, "HEY YEAH! I'M THE ONE THAT YOU WANTED! HEY YEAH! I'M YOUR SUPERBEAST!"

bago
10-16-2009, 09:32 PM
Tainted coil? Is this a reference to coil's cover of tainted love?

BigWeather
10-17-2009, 01:02 AM
Thanks everyone for the stage battle tips. Though I did have to go down to Normal from Brutal I'm still managing much easier.

One quick question: Am I screwed out of 100% if I didn't do the sidequests as they became available? Do you have to do all sidequests to get 100%?

(SPOILER)

I'm particularly worried that some sidequests may have disappeared with the change-over of the western part of the map from Ironheade to Tainted Coil.

MattKeil
10-17-2009, 01:28 AM
Pretty sure you can't miss anything. Even if it disappears during the events of the story, the post-game will bring it all back.

BigWeather
10-17-2009, 01:31 AM
Pretty sure you can't miss anything. Even if it disappears during the events of the story, the post-game will bring it all back.

Awesome, thanks!

chequers
10-18-2009, 03:25 AM
Ok, so I've completed the game and I'm running down Tom's list of "10 things you totally have to do in Brutal Legend". I'm trying to find everyone to hear their last words.... and they must be hiding because I can't find any!

The spider-tending healers are back where they started, and Magnus is on top of the sword (or is that just a joke when you look through the skulloculars?)... but where are the rest?

Nut
10-18-2009, 04:57 AM
... but where are the rest?

Spoilers, obviously.

Lita (and one of the bass players with amusing dialogue) are both in the graveyard immediately southish of Bladehenge. The half-naked Steel Beast ladies (Zauria? something similar to that) are on the top of their jungle temple. The units are at their beach party along the northeast coast north across the gulf past the 'screaming wall'.

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/2419/ is a forum thread that helped fine these.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned yet, but http://www.achievementhunter.com/games/guides/brutallegend/ is a complete and excellent map of all of the collectables if you feel that you have explored the scenery to your tolerance level at the end of the game.

Personally, after I found the last two of the Lore objects via the above map (because those Lore movies made my inner 14 year old very happy, much like this entire game), I realized those were the only collectable I really cared about. I asked myself, "do I want to comb for serpents, or enjoy multiplayer while creating a second profile to replay the game for cutscenes?", and did the latter.

Has anyone run across a discussion forum or FAQ for the multiplayer game yet? I sat around into the wee hours on Friday night playing the Drowned Doom and had about 2/3rds people doing their first game or two, which was becoming unfair, versus experts who slaughtered me by smart use of Tier 1 infantry followed by a complete smushing with the Tier 2 Fire Barons beelning the Rock Crusher. It seems that Tainted Coil is popular to consider overpowered when starting, but at least currently the absolute best players I have run across so far were using Ironheade's mobility (primarily, but not just, Fire Barons) and stacking ranged unit damage to its full advantage.

That said, if you think the Rock Crusher's Stonehenge Attack is not counterable, you weren't playing Tainted Doom and cranking out those 80-fan baby carriages (regrettably, forgot the name). It only takes about two of those Mamacide suicide attacks and there is no more Rock Crusher - tried that against a reasonably good Ironheade player (not one of the "super pros" mentioned above) and it bought me a ton of time even though I had already lost control of the map and, therefore, the game. Brutal Legend is absolutely one of those games were it is extremely rare to win with a resource advantage unless your opponent makes big mistakes.

chequers
10-18-2009, 07:01 AM
OK, that thread has pointed me to everyone but the gay motorcyclists. Any idea where they are?

BigWeather
10-18-2009, 08:54 AM
Had a very metal moment last night, and easily one of my Most Memorable Gaming Experiences Ever (tm).

(SPOILERS, obviously.)

Riding on a cat. That breathes fire. And wears spiked arm and tail bands. With a nearly naked lady. With "Diary of a Madman" blaring in the background.

The game has a few flaws, no doubt. Like places in the world where the player can get stuck. But I am hard-pressed to name a game I've enjoyed more this generation. The writing is great, the characters likable, the story somewhat surprising and has a punch at points, and the world presentation and exploration is brilliant.

Major Malphunktion
10-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Spoilers

I admit being surprised at the 'turncoat' but only because I really really wanted her to be Eddie's girlfriend. It was pretty obvious, but for one of those rare moments in our hobby, I actually get emotionally involved with the characters.
What is interesting for me about this is I'm playing Fable II, which tries desperately to make you care about people, but you rarely do. BL, doesn't try openly to make you like anyone, and at least for me, these guys/gals are friends. I actually had a moment of remorse with the first battle after Lars' demise, realizing our awesome band of 4 is now a Duo, and I'm stuck with the bitchy one. Wait I cared? Usually game characters are a means to an end for me, or a way for a super attack, not actually a companion.

Juste
10-18-2009, 11:11 AM
The game has a few flaws, no doubt. Like places in the world where the player can get stuck. But I am hard-pressed to name a game I've enjoyed more this generation. The writing is great, the characters likable, the story somewhat surprising and has a punch at points, and the world presentation and exploration is brilliant.

I came to write the same thing. I don't think I have laughed as much playing a game ever.

I am getting my ass handed to me in the RTS sections though. Anyone have any tips on the one in the dry ice mines?

Nut
10-18-2009, 11:44 AM
Anyone have any tips on the one in the dry ice mines?

In order of priority, you should always be in battle with your troops doing:

#1] Playing an appropriate guitar solo. If there are enemy infantry, use Facemelter. If there are not enough infantry or it's on cooldown, see if you have a reasonable number of troops without the Battle Cry buff (probably the wrong name). If so, buff them. If not, move on to #2.

#2] Going to your strongest troop that is closeby and using the Double Team ability. For example, if the enemy hero is there, don't hesitate to Double Team with a Razor Girl if appropriate and keep firing until that Hero flies away. It may 'seem' like you should be doing more than controlling one troop and firing at one opponent for a number of seconds, but in reality, it's a really efficient thing to do. Even better examples would be, say, if you happen to have headbangers nearby while a different type of troop is being swarmed - double team just for long enough to knock back all the opposing infantry.

Double Team is not always the best choice, though. If there is not a good opportunity to control a unit, then in combat...

#3] Eddie can stand up to almost any unit except for single target vehicles, which he should stay away from. If you are having trouble with the Drowning Doom hair enemies (name escapes me again), use the (Xbox 360 controls) A+A+X combo to set them on fire, followed immediately by A+X+X combo to light a sparkshooter under them - this is a very possible pair of moves to use against any of the slower 'medium size' units. Also, don't forget about your target+pull back on stick+X move to blast infantry and certain small units all the way from max target range into axe range - you can mow through a couple units this way, or even hook infantry in for an X+A earthshaker.

Also, this may apply a little more to multiplayer, but if the enemy controls more fan towers than you do, you are almost sure to lose. Winning combats is important but this is one of those games where even if you kill more enemies every fight you will eventually get rolled even with a modest resource disadvantage.

Nut
10-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Also, this may sound silly, but consciously 'practice' versus the enemy patrols when you are driving between missions. Blocking is (as far as I can tell) next to useless unless you are low on health and just trying not to die until you can fly away, or if you have units hurting what is attacking you, but dodging is the opposite. If you get good at dodging the varied enemy attacks you can stay on the ground a lot longer in the RTS sections, at least in single player.

However, your enemies' blocking is not next to useless, learn how to recognize the blocking animations of the different troops (for the Drowning Doom example the infantry will hold up their shovel in defense, or the hair troops will raise their braids in front of their face), and keep a sharp eye so that you are not wasting your normal tap-A axe attacks when you need to either dodge around, hold A for a charged attack, or use a guitar move instead.

CaldeDan
10-18-2009, 01:54 PM
I'm missing one bound serpent. I'm using it as an excuse to drive around and listen to metal.

forgeforsaken
10-18-2009, 02:00 PM
There's a few mechanics that they should add. The ability to set a waypoint anywhere, why isn't this in it? Also, the Motor Forges should act as warp gates to get quickly around the world in addition to being the store. Some type of audio queue on the hidden world items would be nice too.

Drastic
10-18-2009, 02:36 PM
I really wish the "you finished!" waypoint wasn't a waypoint. For that matter, I wish you could either set waypoints freely, or just not display them entirely; anymore when I bring up the map, it's just to get my relative bearings.

chequers
10-18-2009, 06:23 PM
I am getting my ass handed to me in the RTS sections though. Anyone have any tips on the one in the dry ice mines?
Go get the led zeeplin solo power that Tom mentioned in his '10 things to do' article. Then upgrade your guitar with strings that reduce cooldown for solos. then spam those two defending your base til you hit the unit cap, and charge.

Nengjanggo
10-18-2009, 09:46 PM
Call of the wild is great early on, too.

Jon Rowe
10-18-2009, 10:40 PM
Go get the led zeeplin solo power that Tom mentioned in his '10 things to do' article. Then upgrade your guitar with strings that reduce cooldown for solos. then spam those two defending your base til you hit the unit cap, and charge.

I had no problems, and that is because I got some help from suggestions.

Use the solos! One big thing you can do, is do the hunting quests to upgrade your Call of the Wild solo. Those Guillotine walker things are pretty badass. Or the laser panther.

Additionally, don't feel bad about mixing it up in there. YOu have to keep the pressure on, because units not being stopped up are units you have to deal with.

The game is really big on crowd control.

Jon Rowe
10-18-2009, 10:42 PM
Rock block is also key, use it any time it is up. Or you can be strategic and wait till you are going for a big push and use it.

Adree
10-19-2009, 01:15 AM
Call of the wild is great early on, too.

Last rank summons Hextadons. I used them in the final battle and they ensured victory. Honestly the Zeppelin solo is a bit too powerful since it will drop just about any building (and you can even use it on the final boss fight).

Loved the game, warts and all. Probably the best kissing animation in a game ever.

Juste
10-19-2009, 01:24 AM
Yeah i think i have fucked up. Some story spoilers included so beware.

I'm at the battle of the black tears and i am getting my ass handed to me by the final push from Ophelia. I can handle anything she sends over the bridge while i am building up my forces but her final push is just killing me. I can't find a decent combination of forces to stop her. I even hit her units with a couple of well placed Bladehenge strikes with no luck and i am getting seriously pissed off that i can't seem to find anything that works. How the hell do you kill those tree things?

I have obviously not upgraded enough by a long shot but i must have several hundred fire tributes available. The question is, can i go back and upgrade now? My save point is when the battle starts and it seems that i will never beat her with the solos and units i have available now.

chequers
10-19-2009, 02:02 AM
If you fail the battle a few times in a row does it give you the opportunity to come back later? That's what happens with the side missions, at least.

Adree
10-19-2009, 02:12 AM
Man how can you not at least have gotten all the solos? This is the next to last battle in the game! Go get them, and buy/equip Soulstealer/Shredder strings. When you get to the bridge drop use Light of Day, drop a Zeppelin, Rock Block her and use the Rockcrusher special to take out the targets. The RTS portion in singleplayer all comes down to effective use of solos.

Juste
10-19-2009, 02:29 AM
Man how can you not at least have gotten all the solos? This is the next to last battle in the game! Go get them, and buy/equip Soulstealer/Shredder strings. When you get to the bridge drop use Light of Day, drop a Zeppelin, Rock Block her and use the Rockcrusher special to take out the targets. The RTS portion in singleplayer all comes down to effective use of solos.

Yeah, facepalm moment last night when i realized that i have been too caught up in the story to upgrade enough.

Adree
10-19-2009, 02:35 AM
Yeah, facepalm moment last night when i realized that i have been too caught up in the story to upgrade enough.

They really should have emphasized how much better the RTS parts are when you have the right equipment and upgrades from freeing dragons. The boosts to your own health alone give you a fighting chance when you are on the ground trying to save your merch booths. Also make sure you've done the hunters missions as much as you can stand because they are essentially instantly summonable melee units (they do count towards your load though) that with the exception of the first ones are murder on melee.

Juste
10-19-2009, 04:08 AM
Thanks for the tips Adree, looks like i'm going sightseeing tonight. Which is fine by me, the world Double Fine has built is just amazing.

Angie Gallant
10-19-2009, 07:38 AM
Probably the best kissing animation in a game ever.

Probably best romance in a game ever too.

Dufresne
10-19-2009, 07:49 AM
So I'd like to replay some missions but when I select a chapter it tells me that it will overwrite my save data. Does that mean I'll lose all the dragons and solos and stuff that I've collected since I played it the first time?

One reason I ask is that I didn't find the Bring It On Home solo until after I'd already beaten the game, so I'd like to go back and replay the last few battles with it.

BigWeather
10-19-2009, 08:04 AM
If you fail the battle a few times in a row does it give you the opportunity to come back later? That's what happens with the side missions, at least.

You should just be able to select "Abandon Mission" (from the Start button menu).

BigWeather
10-19-2009, 08:06 AM
One thing the game is sorely missing, and one I really hope they can patch in (it shouldn't be hard, honest!) is a movie viewer. Actually, two of them. I want something that'll play all of the Legends and another menu option that'll let me play all of the mission videos (doesn't have to be the failure cases nor the "LATER" cases, just the intro / outros). I really should write a note to DF and beg for this feature or post on their forums or something.

zengonzo
10-19-2009, 08:24 AM
No kidding - this is one of the few times that I actually would want to watch the game's cutscenes again, and there is no way to do so. What a terrible oversight.

Be nice to have that patched in or maybe downloadable versions.

Juste
10-19-2009, 01:54 PM
Well with a bit of upgrading the last bit of the game went by like a breeze. Thanks for the tips guys.

This game has more love poured into it than any other game i have ever played. Easily game of this console generation for me. I have never cared so much for the characters in a game, never laughed so much in a game, never been so sad in a game and all in the space of about 6-7 hours gameplay. I can't wait to get out and explore the world fully. Tim Schafer and his team deserve all the praise they can get and if there is any justice in the world this game will go on be one of the best sellers this Christmas (which of course it won't)

Funkula
10-19-2009, 03:07 PM
No kidding - this is one of the few times that I actually would want to watch the game's cutscenes again, and there is no way to do so. What a terrible oversight.

Be nice to have that patched in or maybe downloadable versions.

Dang. I hadn't done so yet, but I was assuming the "Chapters" option would let me do so, and I was planning to go rewatch the Mr. Crowley cutscene soon. Guess I'll have to look it up on Youtube.

Edit: Found a good one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuGmAPuxHZ8&feature=related) For anyone who's read this far without playing the game (all zero of you) MEGASPOILERS.

Tom Chick
10-19-2009, 04:12 PM
Edit: Found a good one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuGmAPuxHZ8&feature=related) For anyone who's read this far without playing the game (all zero of you) MEGASPOILERS.

Cheers for finding that, Funk! I've been wanting to see it again. When I first started playing Brutal Legend, I thought it was pretty pretentious to name the lead chick Ophelia. I was all, like, "Oh, please. As if."

But as with so many things in Brutal Legend, if you trust it, it won't let you down.

-Tom

Matthew Gallant
10-19-2009, 04:20 PM
Such a cool scene.

BigWeather
10-19-2009, 05:53 PM
(SPOILERS)

I love the way the song "Mr. Crowley" is synched up with the cutscene. What a great moment in the game.

Dufresne
10-19-2009, 09:19 PM
Okay, seriously, this is starting to piss me off. I am consistently able to win against the AI on even Brutal difficulty, and have never lost an AI practice battle. Yet I'm constantly getting rolled going up against real players; I've yet to win a single match.

They usually start out well; I'll take control of three towers right off the bat by spreading my units out, then I can usually get them all back to a single central point by the time my opponent gets there. Thing is, by the time he gets there he's got a huge mass of second-tier units against my first-tier ones, and I just get steamrolled as he proceeds to recapture all the towers I took. Where the hell is he getting the resources for that initial push if I'm controlling more towers? Is it a better strategy to build up a full 40-slot army before venturing away from the stage?

It doesn't help that I can't seem to stay alive in the middle of a battle. My deaths can be relied upon to provide my opponent with at least 300 free fans over the course of a match.

Adree
10-19-2009, 09:22 PM
Cheers for finding that, Funk! I've been wanting to see it again. When I first started playing Brutal Legend, I thought it was pretty pretentious to name the lead chick Ophelia. I was all, like, "Oh, please. As if."

But as with so many things in Brutal Legend, if you trust it, it won't let you down.

-Tom

Even though I had suspected (and in the final few Legend's you pretty much know) that Eddie was half demon, the fact the name of his mother was on his shirt the WHOLE GAME made my jaw drop.

My favorite cinema was Drowned Ophelia destroying the bridge. The awesome Lita Ford song that Schafer got her to alter the lyrics for is probably my favorite non-obvious choice on the soundtrack. The supremely meatheaded but completely appropriate Manowar anthems are probably second.

BigWeather
10-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Anyone else having an issue with the "Protector" achievement? The one where you have to do 20 ambush, outpost defense, or mortar secondary missions? I've done every non-racing mission except for the beer run one and it didn't unlock. I haven't beat the final mission, though -- I'm assuming more don't become available then, right?

Adree
10-19-2009, 10:53 PM
Anyone else having an issue with the "Protector" achievement? The one where you have to do 20 ambush, outpost defense, or mortar secondary missions? I've done every non-racing mission except for the beer run one and it didn't unlock. I haven't beat the final mission, though -- I'm assuming more don't become available then, right?


You should have gotten it around the time you got to the Dry Ice area. Some achievements require you to check your Stats screen so try that. Why didn't you do Beer Run?

chequers
10-19-2009, 11:42 PM
Because it's fucking annoying going so slow!

Adree
10-19-2009, 11:46 PM
Because it's fucking annoying going so slow!

You don't have to go slow, just don't hit anything.

chequers
10-20-2009, 12:05 AM
When I did the mission, jumping more than a few meters caused damage to the car, enough that if I didn't follow the road and avoid nitro the beer would be lost before I even hit the beach.

BigWeather
10-20-2009, 12:18 AM
Haha, yeah, avoided beer run due to having to drive carefully -- I did just beat that though. As for the Protector -- I didn't do any secondary missions (on the assumption that as good design dictates secondary missions don't go away) until well into the second half of the game. I wonder if that cost me, not doing the first batch of secondary missions. Though it sure feels like I did 20 ambush / cannon missions. I just hope it isn't necessary to 100% completion -- I don't want to have to start over to get that achievement. Also did try checking stat screen and also quitting the game and coming back in.

Adree
10-20-2009, 01:55 AM
Haha, yeah, avoided beer run due to having to drive carefully -- I did just beat that though. As for the Protector -- I didn't do any secondary missions (on the assumption that as good design dictates secondary missions don't go away) until well into the second half of the game. I wonder if that cost me, not doing the first batch of secondary missions. Though it sure feels like I did 20 ambush / cannon missions. I just hope it isn't necessary to 100% completion -- I don't want to have to start over to get that achievement. Also did try checking stat screen and also quitting the game and coming back in.

Well I imagine that run becomes a lot tougher with vehicle upgrades. I did it as soon as it became available and didn't use nitro and I got it on the second try, so ymmv.

AFAIK anything you haven't completed will be reopened when you get to the "epilogue" part. Shame on you for not doing them since they are almost stupidly easy (I never did an ambush mission that took more than a minute).

Scourge
10-20-2009, 04:10 AM
Shame on you for not doing them since they are almost stupidly easy (I never did an ambush mission that took more than a minute).

Ambush missions are a great excuse to abuse the awesomeness that is the Facemelter for one-shot kill of all enemies.

BigWeather
10-20-2009, 04:21 AM
Normally I'm more OCD about clearing out stuff as soon as it comes available but in Brutal Legend's case the story kept me rushing into the next main mission.

Rorschach
10-20-2009, 06:20 AM
Thing is, by the time he gets there he's got a huge mass of second-tier units against my first-tier ones, and I just get steamrolled as he proceeds to recapture all the towers I took. Where the hell is he getting the resources for that initial push if I'm controlling more towers? Is it a better strategy to build up a full 40-slot army before venturing away from the stage?

My experience is a lot of people are taking Ironheade and teching up to fire barons which are pretty effective against tier 1 infantry. I think finding the hard counter against fire barons will put most online opponents on their heels. That and playing Doom or Coil because every game I've played (okay 3) has been against the Ironheade. My one win was by playing Doom and confusing the hell out of my opponent.

Dufresne
10-20-2009, 06:59 AM
My experience is a lot of people are taking Ironheade and teching up to fire barons which are pretty effective against tier 1 infantry. I think finding the hard counter against fire barons will put most online opponents on their heels. That and playing Doom or Coil because every game I've played (okay 3) has been against the Ironheade. My one win was by playing Doom and confusing the hell out of my opponent.

I had a pretty crushing defeat against a guy playing the Coil. (FYI, double-teaming with the Punishing Party is RIDICULOUSLY effective.) Other than that, yeah, all my games have been against Ironheade.

Funny, the best I ever did was when I played Doom in the Pleasure Palace. My opponent got to Rock Crushers ridiculously fast, though, and though I was able to take out a few with kamikaze Broods, I just couldn't hold him back at that point.

Rorschach
10-20-2009, 09:44 AM
Make sure you read the notes (http://www.doublefine.com/news/comments/battle_time/) from Tim and the BL Lead Designer over at Double Fine. They're pretty explicit that a double team with certain Tier 1 units (Razor Girls, Punishing Parties, Brides) are good against avatars without support.

It does seem like a rush to tier 2 and beyond is being used by a lot of people online. Maybe upgrades to the tier 1 units is the way to counter?

EDIT: Double teamed Frightwigs can take over Rock Crushers!

Adree
10-20-2009, 01:22 PM
My experience is a lot of people are taking Ironheade and teching up to fire barons which are pretty effective against tier 1 infantry. I think finding the hard counter against fire barons will put most online opponents on their heels. That and playing Doom or Coil because every game I've played (okay 3) has been against the Ironheade. My one win was by playing Doom and confusing the hell out of my opponent.

Heh even the AI will spam Fire Barons on you. I ran into 4 groups of them in one fight.

Rorschach
10-20-2009, 03:46 PM
So let me be explicit... what counters Fire Barons and other fast vehicles like Tick Choppers? I know as an avatar I spam lightning on them and they go down pretty quick unless there's more than one group, then I need support.

Dufresne
10-20-2009, 08:14 PM
So I sat down again tonight to play keeping two things in mind: double team whenever possible, and stop splitting up my army.

Bingo. Won 10 games in a row. Some of that was from people surrendering immediately for whatever reason, but still.

The closest I came to losing was a Drowning Doom opponent who digger-rushed* me on the Bloody Coast. While I was capturing the one and only neutral geyser on that map she snuck a shit ton of diggers through the narrow path and started attacking my stage. I was able to fend them off just in time, healed my stage, and then left a single group of fire barons there to defend against further diggers. Then I brought the fight home to her and finished it.

The whole fight, she killed a grand total of 2 of my units.

Damn I love talking about this game.

*Grave-rushed? Goth-rushed?

Tom Chick
10-20-2009, 08:18 PM
Some of that was from people surrendering immediately for whatever reason, but still.

You know, I saw a lot of that as well. I wonder if it's people intentionally trying to drive down their TrueSkill rank so they can play against newer players?

-Tom

Dufresne
10-20-2009, 08:48 PM
You know, I saw a lot of that as well. I wonder if it's people intentionally trying to drive down their TrueSkill rank so they can play against newer players?

-Tom

In one case I expected it, knowing the average Xbox Live gamer, because the game matched me up with someone who I had soundly thrashed a few games previously. As soon as the game started I counted down from 3... 2... 1... and he quit.

BigWeather
10-20-2009, 11:38 PM
Turns out that after you finish the game all undone secondary missions do become available again. I was one short of the 20 needed for Protector when I ran out of missions prior to the last battle but nabbed it right after finishing. Thanks!

delirium
10-21-2009, 12:07 AM
I got my first taste of the multiplayer game tonight, just playing some skirmishes against easy AIs to try and get a grasp for what the other factions are working with. I still stink at it, but I'm finally starting to understand the elegance of the whole thing now that I have a pretty good grasp of the controls. I'm a bit frustrated by the Y selection controls, though. It feels like I still commonly make the mistake of sending more units than I intended to a spot, or have the subgroup start walking to a spot only to come back to me when I give a command to the rest of my units while the subgroup is in command range.

I still have yet to check out the Tainted Coil, but the Drowning Doom faction is neat. I like all the abilities they have to fool opponents and misdirect attention, but I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to micromanage well enough to pull off such strategies. I loved using a Frightwig to steal an opponent's Rock Crusher. Also the line that the goth Gravediggers say when you play a solo is hilarious.

Jon Rowe
10-21-2009, 01:24 AM
What is the last animal you need to hunt?

For some reason I didn't get the hunting achievement but I finished the game. I did all of the quests and none are available now?

I can't think of another animal to hunt really...

The last mission I finished was the Hextadon.

Adree
10-21-2009, 02:06 AM
What is the last animal you need to hunt?

For some reason I didn't get the hunting achievement but I finished the game. I did all of the quests and none are available now?

I can't think of another animal to hunt really...

The last mission I finished was the Hextadon.

Go back to the original hunter mission location in the first area.

Jon Rowe
10-21-2009, 02:33 AM
Nevermind that... I figured it out.. sweet reward.

What about that riding achievement?

Jon Rowe
10-21-2009, 02:41 AM
God damn, this is definitely my GOTY

Dufresne
10-21-2009, 07:56 AM
It feels like I still commonly make the mistake of sending more units than I intended to a spot, or have the subgroup start walking to a spot only to come back to me when I give a command to the rest of my units while the subgroup is in command range.
Your mistake is trying to make subgroups in the first place. Don't split up your army. I thought fighting at multiple points would be a better idea as well, but it's really not. Having most of your units in one fighting force with maybe one or two anti-infantry groups left back at your base to handle any small fry that slip through the cracks is the best way to do it.


What about that riding achievement?
It's every wild animal except for sickle wraiths, ground urchins, and metal beasts. Full list:

Raptor Elk
Razorfire Boar
Tollusk (The big dog-things that look like Zuul and Vince Clortho.)
Hextadon (Mammoths)
Laser Panther
Guillotar
Reaper Horse


God damn, this is definitely my GOTY
Even having played Arkham Asylum, I think I agree.

Mysterio
10-21-2009, 08:40 AM
God damn, this is definitely my GOTY


Even having played Arkham Asylum, I think I agree.

After having played Arkham Asylum, many people were claiming it was their GotY. Now, with the release of Brütal Legend, there are perhaps some claiming it's their new GotY instead of AA. That makes me wonder...with so many AAA titles still to be released this year, how many of them will trump current GotY picks? It should be interesting!

Rorschach
10-21-2009, 10:40 AM
Your mistake is trying to make subgroups in the first place. Don't split up your army. I thought fighting at multiple points would be a better idea as well, but it's really not. Having most of your units in one fighting force with maybe one or two anti-infantry groups left back at your base to handle any small fry that slip through the cracks is the best way to do it.
About the only times I see splitting your forces to be beneficial would be attacking two fan leaches at once right at the beginning or ganking a merch booth while a big fight is going on. In both of those cases you can use rally flags or direct newly spawned troops to the side objective.

delirium
10-21-2009, 10:51 AM
About the only times I see splitting your forces to be beneficial would be attacking two fan leaches at once right at the beginning or ganking a merch booth while a big fight is going on. In both of those cases you can use rally flags or direct newly spawned troops to the side objective.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was using it for. I wanted to send a unit to an unguarded enemy merch booth across the map, then flew away to attend to matters elsewhere. When I came back, half my army was marching off to the merch booth. I don't like using rally flags for that, since I like to keep the rally flags with my army, but sending newly spawned troops isn't a bad idea.

Dufresne
10-21-2009, 11:06 AM
About the only times I see splitting your forces to be beneficial would be attacking two fan leaches at once right at the beginning or ganking a merch booth while a big fight is going on. In both of those cases you can use rally flags or direct newly spawned troops to the side objective.

You're right; that way is useful to a point, but don't overdo it. That's why I was getting rocked so badly early on. I'd get two or three fan leeches this way right from the start, but then my army would be too spread out to effectively defend against a full assault.

For example, the Dry Ice Mines map has three fan leeches: one each near the respective stages, and one in the middle. Sending a group of melee units to the one nearest you while you mass more troops to take the more contested central geyser is a good idea. If you're having trouble separating your units, set the waypoint right at the start and send over the first unit you produce as soon as their created. Maybe the second, like a thunderhog to heal them. And by the time your third group hops off of your stage, your first and second should already be out of command range.

On the other hand, two of the three leeches on the Bladewood map are way off to the sides, at the end of narrow corridors. Sending units out to take those ones is a very bad idea, since they're way too far away to effectively defend early on. Focus on the middle one with all your units, and then take the sides for some extra fans once you've driven your opponent back and put him on defense.

Troy S Goodfellow
10-21-2009, 11:13 AM
Not sure it's been posted in here since I'm avoiding spoilers, but the most recent episode of TMA was about Brutal Legend. (http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/10/20/three-moves-ahead-episode-35-brutal-legend/)

I promise a real strategy discussion next week.

Troy

Tom Chick
10-21-2009, 11:20 AM
And a word of warning that Julian twice mentions a pretty significant spoiler. :(

-Tom

delirium
10-21-2009, 11:25 AM
And a word of warning that Julian twice mentions a pretty significant spoiler. :(

-Tom

Bummer...I wanted to send this to a friend who I've been trying to convince to buy the game for the multi.

Adree
10-21-2009, 11:28 AM
You're right; that way is useful to a point, but don't overdo it. That's why I was getting rocked so badly early on. I'd get two or three fan leeches this way right from the start, but then my army would be too spread out to effectively defend against a full assault.

For example, the Dry Ice Mines map has three fan leeches: one each near the respective stages, and one in the middle. Sending a group of melee units to the one nearest you while you mass more troops to take the more contested central geyser is a good idea. If you're having trouble separating your units, set the waypoint right at the start and send over the first unit you produce as soon as their created. Maybe the second, like a thunderhog to heal them. And by the time your third group hops off of your stage, your first and second should already be out of command range.

On the other hand, two of the three leeches on the Bladewood map are way off to the sides, at the end of narrow corridors. Sending units out to take those ones is a very bad idea, since they're way too far away to effectively defend early on. Focus on the middle one with all your units, and then take the sides for some extra fans once you've driven your opponent back and put him on defense.

Don't forget that if you are Ironheade you can instantly summon animals that can deleech a far off point very quickly.

Troy S Goodfellow
10-21-2009, 11:45 AM
And a word of warning that Julian twice mentions a pretty significant spoiler. :(

-Tom

Why didn't he edit it out? He told me he did the editing for the show.

RABBIT!!!!

Troy

rrmorton
10-21-2009, 08:54 PM
I just finished the game. Total blast. Amazing that Schafer is still schooling the rest of the game industry on sheer creativity.

Rorschach
10-21-2009, 10:02 PM
Got my record up to 3 and 3 tonight with two wins and one loss. Played all four games as DD. In my loss I got avatar harassed early and eventually fire baron spammed to death. In the two wins I was able to keep my opponent on his heels enough to get out the higher tier units. Great moment in the dry ice mines when I went vehicle so he brings up a Skullsplitter, one Frightwig double team later I had my own 'Splitter. That was the turning point of the game. By the time he got out the Rock Crusher I was ready with multiple Brood.

I think my build order is use up the existing fans with a mixed tier 1 force but the next move is to upgrade the stage and get out some higher tiers and vehicles.

Good times.